Gravitas

Pete Mockaitis
Gina, welcome!

Gina London
Hi, it’s great to see you. Thanks so much.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about getting amplified, and congrats on the fresh release of your book, Amplify You: How to Power Up Your Connections in an AI World. Could you start by sharing with us one of the most surprising discoveries you made while putting this together?

Gina London
Well, when I started this whole journey, because I work as a communications coach and trainer and speaker, I think the thing that continually stopped me when I first moved in from being a broadcaster and a television journalist into strategy communications and transferring the skills is that it is a transferable skill. Because I thought, “Well, this is something everybody does. And what can I bring to this?”

And one of my friends who actually worked for the BBC when I was at CNN, she said, “Gina, you forget what the rigors of 24-hour news have done for you in terms of your story-crafting and your vocal presence and the energy that you bring on camera is something anybody can learn for themselves, but most of them don’t, unless they have.” Like, you’re going to a gym, you’re not going to just watch a YouTube video and then pick up the trap bar and do it properly. You need a coach to help you.

And so as I was writing this, I thought, “I want to give fundamental but essential skills in a way that’s easy to apply and habit-stack one on top of each other in an incremental, developable way. So I can give people this guide book that they can use to help them power up their connections and their humanness, especially when we got all this AI stuff making us feel somehow very replaceable.

I want to help people to say, “No, these are the tools that anybody can develop.” But it does take some effort and it is a skill. So I’m surprised that we’ve got it all out here, but it goes from the way you talk to yourself, the way you talk to others, the way you show up, and then put it all together in some behavioral techniques. And I’m pretty proud of how comprehensive it is. So I’m really delighted that it’s out in the world now.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful, yes. Well, congratulations.

Gina London
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Could you share with us a cool story of someone who, indeed, amplified themselves, they started from a spot where they figured, “I needed some help,” and then what they did and what the result was?

Gina London
Yeah, I’m so grateful because I did start writing this column. I write in the Sunday Independent newspaper here in Ireland, and it’s on leadership and communications. And so I got a note from someone who had read the column.

He was the CEO of a big engineering company here in Ireland, but he was also, he’d acquired a new company in the UK and he was also requiring something in North America. And as these acquisitions were going through, he was going to be doing a roadshow to meet with the employees.

And he said, “Gina, I’m very aware that I’m a big guy, I’m a serious guy.” And as I was watching him when we were having our initial discovery call, I said, “Yeah, and you’re an intimidating guy. And if you’re coming into my new company, and I’m an employee, I’m going to be questioning, ‘Am I going to be made redundant? Does this guy really care about me? What is happening to my job?’”

And so I put him on camera, doing this, “Welcome, and here’s the vision,” discussion that he would do normally. And then we played it back and I said, “Now I want you to do it again and I want you to smile like your face is feeling like it’s going to crack.”

And the big guy, Steven, says, “Well, I don’t do this happy-clappy stuff.” I’m like, “Just work with me a little bit on this.” And we played that second clip back and he watched it and he said, “You know what? I could smile even more.”

And that’s where that light bulb moment is where someone sees how others see them and they realize it’s not fake, it’s not manipulative, but it is an effort. And if you’re unaware of what you look like when you’re communicating, well, that’s the first step to building your awareness.

And then the second step is let’s have a desire to amplify, not change you, but let’s start taking more control of these things. So it’s not just about smile more, but it’s about, “Are you aware of the emotions of what you’re saying? Have you chosen words that are connecting with your specific audience? Do you have more control over the vocality to support those words? Is it energetic? Is it confidential? Is it thoughtful?”

And then, “Do you have the face and the body and the gestures and all of that integrated so you’re creating a real compelling, connecting,” and in this case with my guy Steven, “reassuring communication experience?”

So it’s reminding people that communication is not just a transfer of information, it’s creating an experience with the big giant caveat that this is not manipulation and then fake and exploitation when you have mutually beneficial goals in mind, and that it’s heartfelt and driven by your values. So we get into that as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Gina, I like that so much. There’s so much goodness there. And so I like the way you said it with regard to amplify, you know, you’re not some other creature. You are you, amplified because you’re not aware of how you come across. And that is just eye-opening for people all the time when they see themselves on video.

I’ve taken a video of friends that said, “Hey, watch out, you keep doing this thing where you’re stroking your tie.” He’s like, “What? No, I’m not.” It’s like, “Oh, wow, that’s so weird.” You’re shocked. Like, you can’t believe it until you behold it. And he was like, “Oh, well, there it is. Okay. That’s a thing that’s happening. Wow!”

Gina London
Exactly, because we have these patterns and habits of how we’ve been communicating up until now. Most of us are on default. And so we don’t know. Maybe we might have been told, “Hey, you ramble,” or, “Hey, I don’t know what you’re saying,” or, “Hey, I can’t actually understand you because you mumble.”

But then most of us stop right there and think, “Well, that’s just how I am. That’s just the authentic me.” And I want everyone to understand that your self-acceptance and your self-development do not have to be at friction, that you can still be who you are and you’re a great human being and you’ve come as far as you have you’ve come.

And you can also layer on some more intentionality of how you think about the other person, how you prepare for presentations or even just a one-on-one or a casual conversation.

This stuff matters, and I think it really matters more than ever because we are becoming more and more dependent upon Claude and Gemini and ChatGPT to help us in our written words. But if we don’t sound like we write, or we don’t write like we sound, that means we probably haven’t taken enough control of who we are.

And I think it’s really important for us now to be irreplaceable as humans. So human-up your skills, folks. And this book, I think, comes at a really great time.

Pete Mockaitis
Human-up your skills, yes, indeed. When you mentioned amplifying your facial expressions, your body language, your gestures, your vocal tone, and thinking about the emotions associated with what you’re saying, that is the telltale sign for me with regard to, I’m thinking about YouTube.

And if you’re watching something, maybe there’s no face and it’s just visuals, or maybe there is a person. But, like, that’s how I tell that it’s AI and, apparently, I don’t know, maybe the comments are fake, too, but it seems like it appears that many of these people, the comments, are completely unaware that this is not a human being in front of them.

But that is what does it for me, it’s like, “No, that person is saying something sad but they don’t look sad. Their tone of voice isn’t sad. Like, that person is saying something really surprisingly, powerfully insightful, but they don’t look like they’re saying it. It’s just wrong.” And so that’s what does it for me.

And what’s funny is a lot of humans are doing this, too, just before the land of AI. It’s like, “Wait, you’re saying something that’s, like, really a big deal but you don’t look like you think it’s a big deal? So now, I don’t know, is it a big deal or not? Or did I misunderstand you? What’s going on?”

There’s, like, a confusion inside of me when there is an incongruity when things don’t match up, assuming I’m paying enough attention. That’s another thing. It’s, like, maybe because it’s incongruous, it’s boring, and I don’t care, or I was like, “Well, whatever.” And so I’m not even paying enough attention to notice that it doesn’t match up.

Gina London
You are so hitting on the incongruity and the lack of attention span that people have these days. So in the incongruity piece, I have an illustration in the book of a three-legged stool: words, voice, and your body.

And in the body part, I would also include your clothing and your wardrobe choices and your grooming and those sorts of things because it’s all giving that impression of who you are to that audience.

But what we’re talking about is a lot of people, especially in business, more formal settings, like my CEO guy, they’re focusing on the words, but they haven’t learned how to integrate and connect the voice to the emotion behind those words. They haven’t necessarily picked words that are warm or that can be reassuring or connecting in the particular situation to that audience as well.

And then the body language piece, as I was mentioning, if it doesn’t look energetic or urgent or sensitive, there is that lack of balance, and that three-legged stool doesn’t stand as well if one leg is the only one that’s really engaged.

And with your point about the attention span, it’s not that everybody has to be super dramatic, it has to be jazz hands or whatever, but you do have to have that sense of, “I’m in real time with human beings. I’m seeing you. I’m hearing you.”

And this is the experience that is going to make them wake up for six seconds and not go back on their phone or get out of their thoughts and listen to you because you know the sense of urgency, you know the enthusiasm, you know the passion, and you have worked at yourself to be able to bring it so you’re not some slick, impersonal, overly polished and artificial AI slop. We got to ratchet this stuff up.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well said. I dig that a lot. Now, when we talk about these emotions, and I think that’s great in terms of them being a focal point to tie this together in terms of the theme, you know, the dress and the appearance and the intonations and the body gestures.

The emotion is the theme. Like, “Is this serious? Is this sad? Is this exciting? Is this inspiring?” I think some people might say, “You know, Gina, we’re just talking about facts. It’s like, ‘Hey, here’s the report of what happened over the last month. Here are the numbers. Here are some charts with the numbers. They’re just facts. So where do the emotions come into the play here, Gina?”

Gina London
Yeah, exactly. And this goes from one of my very first times I was ever going through TV anchor training, and they do have that. I went into some little studio in Texas with this coach and we were reading from a teleprompter, or I was reading.

And he was reminding me, and this was really important, and I use it with my clients all the time, too. It doesn’t matter what it is you’re delivering. Those numbers mean something not just for the shareholders, but maybe for your job or your bonus or the path of this company.

What are the hopes, dreams, and fears attached to those words? And because I am a positive communication coach, I’m not about being someone who preys on fears, but someone who reassures around fears. But be aware that there’s emotions to those words.

And so that doesn’t make you be overly theatrical or giving fake energy, but it does help you ground yourself. And what is experiencing, what the people who are hearing those seemingly just factual numbers experiencing?

I work with senior leaders who are giving their quarterly reports to the board, or their earnings reports to their shareholders, or they’re doing a town hall to their employees. People want to feel a connection. They want to know that they’re aligned on something that they can work toward that’s going to feed their family.

And I don’t care what topic it is. If it’s worth speaking about, it’s worth speaking about from the heart. And it’s not, by the way, I know we’re speaking in the US here, or I’m coming from Ireland and you’re in the US, but it’s not, “I am American.” It’s not an Americanist thing. It’s a human thing, because no matter where I go, people are wanting to be seen, to be heard, to be valued.

And if you’re the person who’s presenting whatever it is, you have that opportunity to either make more of a connection or be neutral. And there really is no neutral. Neutral is usually read as distracted, not interested, not caring, phoning it in, and none of that is going to build a connection or build trust.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I like what you had to say with regard to the fear and reassuring. And we had another anchor on the show, Erica Mandy of The NewsWorthy, who was delightful. And whenever I’m listening to her short audio news program, which I think is swell, she does do that reassuring thing, and it feels good.

Like, if there’s bad news, she’ll own it and convey some emotions, like, “We do have another school shooting to tell you about, you know, last night….” She’ll sort of lay it out there, and like, “Yeah, this is sad. It’s concerning.” And it feels like she’s there with you as opposed to just saying the words.

Like, ‘Here is a thing that transpired.” It’s like, “Well, no, it’s actually heartbreaking and very troubling that this has happened yet again.” And so we’re feeling some of that emotion, but also in a reassuring way, like, “Oh, and our news anchor is freaked out, too.”

Gina London
Right, you’ve got to be able to know the goal and assume the role within the right parameters. If you’re in an anchor position, you can’t fall apart. You shouldn’t probably fall apart and start crying on air.

That said, if you were just dispassionate and just reading the words on the teleprompter, then the people listening or watching you are, “Do they have any emotional investment to it at all? No, they should because they’re human.”

Likewise, in the corporate world, if your sales numbers are down, somebody is upset about that. And if you’re too mean or not caring enough, you’re probably demotivating your employees.

And so it’s really important for people to know that you can set the energy, you set the weather with the tone of your voice, with the eye size that you give as you’re speaking. I had an accounting conference that I was the facilitator of a couple of years ago, “Ooh, accounting. So talk about numbers.”

But there’s still amazing people who are doing those numbers. And the president, as I was spotlighting the different speakers and facilitating the panel and the thing, at the very end, he came on stage and he had prepared remarks, and he said, “I’m going to take a page from Gina, and put my pages down.”

And he actually put them over on the podium and he walked to the front of the stage. And so he spoke from the heart. And I’m telling you, every single person, and that was nothing he’d ever done before, right? And every single person in that conference stood up and gave him outstanding ovation because it was such, for him, it was a big leap.

Now, for somebody who’s more practiced or they’re maybe more of an extrovert, this wouldn’t seem like a lot. And that’s what I think is so important about my book is that it takes anybody where they are, and these little things that might seem like not a big deal can bridge a gap between yourself and an audience in a positive way, which is what this is all about.

Pete Mockaitis
I’d love to hear what you have to say about confidence. Listeners always want more of it. They ask about it. They re-watch episodes about confidence. So how do we have more of it, Gina?

Gina London
Confidence is the outcome after you learn and can apply the techniques of best practices of communication. You don’t first think into confidence and then exude it. You realize vocal projection shows authority, “I will learn how to give more volume.”

Anybody, whether or not you’re a self-described introvert, extrovert, anywhere on that scale, you can learn to project your voice. Don’t rely on a microphone, number one. Number two, posture. Walking into a room with a slow but meaningful pace is going to affect a look of, “I belong. I’m comfortable. Looking out at the people in a room, I can make eye contact.”

Those little tools, when you know that you can do it and you’re practicing it and you’re actually doing it, that’s going to change your feedback loop of how people receive you. So the first position is you’re going to learn some of these techniques.

You might feel like you’re doing the big smiley crack thing like Stephen was when he was doing his presentation practice. But when you start to see how people react to you, it’s going to reassure you and reaffirm that.

So that changes that feedback loop of how you speak, how you walk, how you look, how you engage. That’s going to result in more head space for real-time decision-making around the content that you’re wanting to share or the conversation that you’re going to have.

And that makes you feel more confident as a result. So it’s an outcome. The actions inform the emotion, not the other way around.

Pete Mockaitis
Okie-dokie. So I’m not so much hearing it’s so much a matter of mindset or belief or self-talk. Is that in the mix at all for confidence?

Gina London
Yes, of course. So my book has three main sections: say it, look it, be it. And the say it part starts with how we talk about ourselves to ourselves. So, absolutely, I mean, the first person that you talk to in the morning and the last person that you talk to at night, even if you have a partner or you’re doing a little prayer, it’s still you.

And I think that’s really important is to… we have a section, I have a section, “How do you interrogate the words that you use to talk about yourself with yourself? Are they words that you own and that you truly believe, or were they maybe words that were put there by someone else?”

And if that was someone else that put it in there like a coach who said, “You don’t work hard enough,” or, in my case, a teacher who said I mumbled, are those things that are serving you? Are those things that you want to hold on to? Or, they’ve taken root because they were planted in by someone else?

So we go through that whole interrogation process because I do want you to have positive self-talk. I do absolutely encourage you to embrace the growth mindset that you can develop and amplify yourself. And that is okay.

The same way you develop a better tennis serve or a golf swing or a piano or violin, it’s the same application for how you become a more intentional communicator, an intentional human being.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Now, in your pitch, I understand there are some communication habits that quietly undermine credibility and executive presence. Uh-oh, Gina, what are these and how do we stop them?

Gina London
Well, I’ve already touched on one, and that is the soft speaker. It’s not that if you’re an introvert, you have to be yelling all the time. But it is that a stronger voice, it’s going to be able to contribute in a busy meeting more than a soft voice that people over-speak.

So I certainly do want everyone to feel more comfortable hearing their voice hit the back of the room. It’s not about diaphragm breathing or anything super technical, but it is about matching the breadth of your voice along with that word is going up the top of your mouth, roof of your mouth, back to the back of that room.

And that’s going to help you when you say things like, “I have something I’d like to add here,” as opposed to inside, eating those words, “I have something I’d like to add here.” So that undermines your authority.

Your ability to reach out and try to network within an organization is also something that’s really important. Don’t think that your work is going to be the thing that’s getting you the attention or the promotion. You also need to work visibly, and that includes reaching out to people that might be two layers above you.

Not to say, “Hey, pick me, pick me,” but, “I see you,” or, “I’ve read about you,” or, “I saw you on this Slack meeting or something, and I’d like to know more about you. Could I have a 10-minute virtual or real coffee with you to learn your story because I find you inspiring, I find what you do interesting?”

People really gravitate to being asked for advice or sharing their story. So networking is a corporate-y word for just building relationships, but proactively building friendships and learning how to take more control of your voice would be the two things that I would encourage anybody to start being real intentional about.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m really digging your perspective on the emotional theming of things. And so in my mind’s eye, I’m seeing the How We Feel app, which divides the universe of emotions into pleasant and unpleasant, and high energy and low energy, and then within each of those 36, so a total of 144 possible emotional flavors there.

How do you think about the palatte or the landscape of emotion? Do you keep it broad in terms of, “Hey, these are kind of like one of the five-ish kind of core things on the menu”? Or do you get precise, like, “This is wistful versus bittersweet”?

Gina London
Well, that’s a fantastic question. And I want to also go back and say I’m digging your use of the word diggin’, by the way. That was really fun. And that’s where I think everybody has a palette.

So I would certainly not be someone that would say, “Let’s go through and I want you all to be able to see the same palette of colors the way that I want you to see the way I see them.”

I would encourage you to think more broadly because, when we get into wistful and we get into the, I mean, I think that’s a lovely nuance and I love poetry and I love literature, so I would certainly like that.

But to make it easier when someone is trying to power-up or human-up themselves from maybe never considering it, I don’t want to get into lavender versus violet because I think someone might have a hard time with, “Is it blissful? Is it wistful?” But I do want you to think about the hopes, dreams, and fears. So I break it into three.

And I do also use the visualization of when you’re speaking even a straightforward presentation, there are probably sections within that presentation that are more serious, more uplifting, something to be aspirational about.

And so I encourage people to look at their script or their presentation or their report, like a conductor would for an orchestra. Where are the parts of that presentation that you need to have your voice get a little slower to show some seriousness, where maybe you want to power it up because you’re telling an energetic story of victory or maybe one that’s more disappointing?

When you feel yourself in the emotions of the words, a lot of us can naturally change those, but some people can’t. So I don’t think you need to get into the subtlest, more microscopic, precise nuances of how you would describe the emotion, but I would like you to have the general understanding of where you are taking that audience at a particular time.

And if you are delivering some difficult news, I also would encourage you, “Can you give them a little bit of hope towards the end?” because we don’t want to just be left with our emotions flat on the floor. We want to be feeling like there’s some reason to keep going for some reason.

And if you’re a leader, or even if you’re a colleague presenting to other colleagues, I think keeping that in mind is also going to help you have the words in a particular order and have your voice and your body language and your facial expressions connecting to those emotions while you go on. So you are creating a journey.

Does it have to be extremely nuanced? No, but you should be aware of what you’re doing while you’re doing it. You should also be reading the room, because if you are delivering information, information, information, boring, boring, boring, and the eyes are starting to glaze over and you continue to steamroll through that, you have already lost them. If you think it’s boring for you, it’s completely boring for them.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, well said. The symphony orchestra conductor picture, I think, is super handy because, if you think of a great conductor, they really do, with their whole bodies, convey not just the tempo, like, you know, one, two, three, four. But, like, the mood, the vibes, the feels of the piece, and they’re quite distinct in terms of, like, the slow, sad part versus the fast, exciting part, all those dimensions with the pacing and the volume.

And I think, when you imagine yourself in such a role, it also feels rather empowering in terms of, “This is the art that I seek to create and the emotional journey movements of this piece of oratory,” not to get too highfalutin about it, but it does. It puts you in a good head space, I think, to really consider more dimensions than words, words, words.

Gina London
Than just the information, yeah, because you know, like any of us right now can think about, “Who was that boss that we really liked to listen to? Who was that teacher, that professor that really made the lecture come alive? Who is that person that you can think of right now that you think is a captivating speaker, if it’s a celebrity or a politician or whoever?”

More than likely, they have worked on this stuff. They think about, “Where is a place where I can put some energy in what might be a straightforward, otherwise, presentation or a report or an update?”

I was working in Switzerland last month with a chief medical officer of a big medical device company and very facts, very scientific, all of this, but I said, “You’re saving people with cancer. Is there a story that you can tell?” And I said, “Just give me someone’s first name.”

He got into this whole story about Christopher and what they were able to do and how it made him feel and what his family did. And this is from a very scientific sort of logos-minded, not ethos-minded guy. And it was captivating.

I said, “Now you can pick that little story as an example in an earnings update, in a town hall. You can do that stuff.” And what I’m driving at here is freeing people up to bring more of them, their human selves, into what might be an, otherwise, very dry, factual operations report.

It changes the way people receive you. And people do have shorter attention spans. They do want to connect with people in a work environment, wherever. These types of human skills, you can use them in so many different places. And I think it’s just really important for people to get excited about this and not feel like, “Oh, another set of rules.”

No, it’s you crafting oars for your little boat that’s already out there floating in the river of life, folks. What can you do? You can construct oars or paddles or maybe even a motor and a sail, and you can take more control of how it goes and how people interact with you. And I do find that really exciting.

It’s not just for, “Oh, she’s a natural,” or, “He’s a natural.” It’s a developable skill. And there are tools that you can put into your toolbox. And then depending on where you’re going, what the communication event is, and everything is a communication event, everything is worth trying these things out, changing those feedback loops, and then you’ll become more confident and more comfortable as a result.

And that’s really the keys that anybody can take. But they do have to take them, they do have to explore them and make them applicable for themselves.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I like that a lot, and this is sort of the theme that’s coming up with regard to you keep your professionalism, well, in certain contexts. You keep professionalism and the emotions and it’s winning.

What comes to mind is so random, but it was a snippet from an earnings call. It was Strauss Zelnick of Take-Two Interactive. And he said something to the effect of, “Things are shaping up to be a blockbuster year fueled by the release of Grand Theft Auto VI, arguably the most anticipated entertainment release in history.”

And I thought, “Dang!” because, here he is, and earnings calls tend to be among the most boring and staid of contexts. And yet, I thought he did a fine job of saying something that’s pretty exciting, “Biggest entertainment release in history. Whoa!” within the same context that fits of, you know, professionalism, earnings call.

And if it was purely, like, reading a transcript, that would feel very weird, “The most anticipated entertainment release in history.” Like, it doesn’t sound like you’re anticipating it that much, bro.

Gina London
Exactly. If you’re going to use words that are superlative in nature, then why not link that with an energy in your voice? And if you are on video or people can see you and face to face, make that face match that, too. So back to the whole incongruence thing, it’s not off balance like that little three-legged stool.

And that’s where I encourage people to power up your language. If you have corporate lexicon that you have fallen into that trap of way of speaking, look at those words again. Does it mean anything to you? Does it say anything to a brand-new employee that’s just coming out of college who doesn’t know your corporate lingo?

If not, then change it, warm it up, make it have meaning. Don’t think that everybody knows what you’re saying because you’ve been saying it a certain way for so long. And if you are saying it with a complete lack of emotion or a complete lack of vocal intensity or energy, you are replaceable.

I’m sorry to say that that transcript can be written by ChatGPT or Claude now, sent out there, and probably read by some voice gen that’s going to sound really slick and have no soul. So if you have a soul, this is a chance to really make it shine and connect to the other souls in the room.

Pete Mockaitis
“If you have a soul, now’s your chance to make it shine.” I like that a lot. And with the professionalism, I think some people maybe have a little bit of fear of, like, cutting loose or getting too emotional. Like, it’s not Tom Cruise on Oprah’s couch, you know, in terms of like, “I’m so excited about this release.” It’s not that, but there’s genuine human emotion present within that professional package, and that’s winning.

Gina London
Exactly. And that’s one of the things that one of my first sections is all about the FAQs, “Well, Gina, what if I’m an introvert?” “Well, Gina, doesn’t this sound like it’s fake or exploitative?” And I answer all these questions.

And one of those things is, “Well, but I can’t just be overly animated, and, well, you’re telling me to do all these things all the time.” Like, “No, I’m telling you to be situationally aware. Don’t jump up, up and down on Oprah’s couch, unless you’re Tom Cruise, because you can, I suppose, do that if you want. But know the guardrails of your situation. But do push the boundaries a little bit.”

If my accountant president had stuck to the script and just stayed behind the podium and held on to both sides of that podium and looked down and just read like he was prepared to do, he never would have had that connection.

And I think this is the wonderful, as we said before, free opportunity for anybody to explore the range of you. You probably have, when you’re with your family or your friends, you’re at a sporting event or something, you’ve probably got that energy version of you.

So don’t switch it off just because you walk into work or you’ve turned on your Teams or your Zoom meeting for that business sales call. You can still bring your humanness to those things.

I worked with the chief technical officer for Pernod Ricard for a number of years, and I can share that because he’s on my LinkedIn page. But Pierre-Yves was very by the book. He was a native French speaker.

He was now, because their company was doing a lot of AI to help promote their market, their marketing and their sales funnels, he was in charge of a lot of that. So he was being asked to speak at a lot of English language native conferences where he not only had to work on some enunciation so he could be more easily understood, speaking in a second language, but he also didn’t want to just be getting too technical on the AI stuff.

He wanted to use stories and even shared more about himself to have that connection with the audience. And we had such a wonderful time that his assistant, who would be putting in our coaching times, even said to him, “I’m so happy when I get to put in another time that you’re working with Gina because I get to see how you progress all the time.”

And that’s really rewarding because people can amplify themselves while still being very true to themselves. And I think that’s the important thing to remember, too. This is not changing you. You are already a fully formed human being, but it is amplifying you, and these are some of the tools that you can use and they’re available for anybody.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well. Gina, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Gina London
I think one of the most important conversations I’ve had is about conversations, and it’s with the wonderful woman who wrote the foreword to my book, Susan Scott. So she wrote a book called Fierce Conversations. And her foundational premise, which is true, is that our conversations are our relationships.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And can you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Gina London
Well, I also have the privilege of having Dr. Wendy Suzuki, she’s the head of the arts and science program over at NYU and she’s an author herself and a neuroscientist. And years ago, when I was working in the White House, and President Clinton was there, and this is the only thing that he taught me and nothing else to share.

But there’s a little technique of putting your thumb here on your palm, turning that palm around and putting a pressure on it, and it helps you go from reactive, maybe your face might be leaking something or the nerves might be coming up when you’re getting a difficult conversation, to keep your face and your voice in check.

And I asked Wendy if that, I said, “Is that a placebo or is that a valid thing?” She says, “No, no, no, this actually helps you go from the amygdala point of the trigger response, very emotional response, more into the prefrontal cortex.”

And so I don’t know if it was actually an experiment or a study, but it was validated by one of the top neuroscientists, and that makes me really happy because I’ve been transferring that and teaching that to my clients as well, as a way to keep yourself grounded when you’re feeling like, otherwise, you might leak some emotions that you don’t think are going to build your credibility or that connection.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. So this sounds like an acupressure move, and Wendy Suzuki, she’s a guest on the show, so she must be right.

Gina London
She is. Of course, she is.

Pete Mockaitis
She has the imprimatur of How to be Awesome at Your Job. So let’s review. I grab a palm, one hand, and with my other hand, I put my thumb firmly in the dead center of the palm and put some pressure on it?

Gina London
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Do I hold it for a while or…?

Gina London
Do I hold and how long? And does it make a difference if it’s my left thumb to my right? No, the idea here, really, is to give yourself that reminder that you are communicating even if you’re not saying a word.

So it’s usually used, I use it when I’m going on a stage or I’m in a panel or in a debate of some sort where I’m maybe getting a question that I’ve not expected, or maybe a client is asking me something that is out of scope, and I need to prepare a good response. I want to keep my face composed. I want to keep my pace slow and even.

So this just helps me remind myself to keep that game face on so that I can focus my brain matter not on the emotions and the cortisol that’s coming up, but on how I construct, “How can I purposefully go into my toolbox of techniques and land an answer that is going to continue to build that trust and that credibility going forward?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Gina London
In the business sense right now, I’ve read a lot of them, but I really keep going back to The Coaching Habit by Michael Bungay Stainer. And I loved his book because it’s short, simple, and, most important for me, easy to apply.

Pete Mockaitis
Fabulous. And a favorite tool?

Gina London
Well, I won’t lie and say that I don’t use any of the AI bots. I’ve not gotten familiar with Claude. I do use ChatGPT. It’s become a real easy way to write quick emails. And I think, sometimes, when you’re doing, for example, my daughter has just gone off to college, and all the type of getting her into housing and all the follow-up that you do with student administrators and things, that can be a little bit emotionally charged.

So you can give that prompt. The ChatGPT tool doesn’t have any of that emotion that it’s caring about, “Which word should I use?” then it spits out something. But what’s really important, when we talk about this kind of a tool, and this is inherent, of course, in the book and for our own communication as well, is to not settle for the first thing that they come up with.

Look for, “Are those words that you would use? Would you sign off like that? Is it too flowery? Is it not warm enough?” Use it as a skeleton, but you put your own flesh on those types of things. I think that’s really important as more of us are using AI agents.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Gina London
Favorite habit for me is making my bed.

Pete Mockaitis
Alrighty. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, they quote it back to you often?

Gina London
The fact that you’re communicating always, either by default or by design.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Gina London
You would go to my website, GinaLondon.com, or if you’d like to buy the book straight up, we have, obviously, a way that you can buy the book from my website. Or you can go ahead and buy it at any of the online places that you would purchase a book because it’s everywhere now.

And, certainly, if you want to follow me on any socials, I’m over on TikTok and Insta and my favorite place, though, is LinkedIn because that’s where a lot of the business and professional conversations are happening and I love to be there.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Gina London
Don’t think that you have fully arrived. When you get complacent about your communications, that’s when you start to slip. Your caring needs to constantly be cultivated. The same way I won’t get up and not make my bed, I also won’t get up without thinking about, “What’s my self-discipline? How can I add value to someone else? How can I help someone else?”

So one thing I think, also, is really important to remember is that when you’re feeling self-conscious about yourself, your communications, maybe your career path or whatever it is, the best way to heal that is to get more others-focused. So the more others-conscious you can be, the less self-conscious you’ll be as a result.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Gina, thank you.

Gina London
Oh, it’s been a pleasure. Absolutely enjoyed it. I was digging the whole experience.

Pete Mockaitis
Matt, welcome back!

Matt Abrahams
I am thrilled to be back with you. We had such fun last time. Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes. Well, thank you, and kudos on all your success in terms of the book and your podcast. It is just blowing up and you’re appearing in big arenas digitally, and so I just think that’s so cool. So kudos, the good word is getting out and you’re getting out some more good word with an updated edition of your book.

Matt Abrahams
Thank you. Yeah, it’s all exciting. The goal is to help people feel more comfortable and confident communicating and it’s always great to have conversations on the topic.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so Think Faster, Talk Smarter. We’re coming out with a fresh edition and, apparently, this AI business is fairly consequential when it comes to communication.

Matt Abrahams
I’ve heard. I’ve heard. Do you find you use AI to help you in your communication?

Pete Mockaitis
Selectively. I use it a ton for research and I love that. I cannot tell how many times I’ve said, “Show me human randomized control trials on the impact of X on Y,” because I was like, “Get right to the real science of the stuff,” as opposed to, you know, what random influencers are saying. And then follow up questions.

So I think that I’ve been having too much fun using AI for research. And with communication, I do it pretty sparingly. It’s usually, like, I’m really kind of stuck, “I want to make this email. I don’t want to be rude, but I want to be kind of assertive.”

But the blunt answer is like, “Hey, this is our agreement. Read it,” you know? But, “What’s the nicer way to say that?” So I find it helps when I have some emotional hang-ups with my language to just be like, “Oh, yeah, that’s just the easy words to use. Yeah, go ahead and do that,” you know?

Matt Abrahams
And I think that’s a wise way to use it. Use it as a check on tone, as a check on vocabulary, again as a partner, not necessarily as the drafter and originator of the information.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I’ve heard that said very well. And we had Jeremy Utley, understandably.

Matt Abrahams
Ah, Jeremy is a good friend and a colleague. He’s awesome.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, he really nailed it. I don’t remember if this is his words, or if this is from Brendan at The Leverage Class. We’ll put links to all of this stuff, to think of AI as a sparring partner instead of an oracle, or a teammate instead of an oracle. And that’s been very helpful.

Matt Abrahams
Yes, that’s exactly right. That is Jeremy’s language for sure. Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
So that’s handy. So that was one of the reasons you thought, “Hmm, a fresh edition of this book is warranted already,” because it’s not that old. But lay it on us, in terms of your view of AI and how it’s impacting communication and professionals.

Matt Abrahams
Right. So AI gives us an opportunity for all of us to be perfect and polished in our communication, and that’s a problem. That’s a problem because it brings to us what I’m calling an authenticity crisis, where we never truly know if what somebody says is their own thought process, is the result of that, or if it’s something AI created.

If you think about it, communication is the end stop of a whole bunch of thinking that happens. Critical thinking is important and critical in our communication. And if we can never truly know if what somebody is saying is theirs, then we’ve got an issue of authenticity.

So much so that companies are requiring in-person interviews again because we want to make sure no Cyrano de Bergerac is going on, people looking at the screen or getting advice in their ears. Universities like where I teach are bringing back blue books. You and I both remember putting pen in the blue books to answer questions because we’re just not sure.

So we need to, I believe, in a world of AI where polish and perfection are just a few keystrokes away, being able to demonstrate that we’re human and we have thought through our information is critical. And I believe, while AI can be incredibly helpful in being a sparring partner, in helping us think through our audiences, in testing our reflexes around certain types of communication, we want to make sure that we avoid just relying on it for all of our communication.

And there are things we can do to signal that we are actually human in our communication. And that’s really what this chapter, the new chapter about AI is all about.

Pete Mockaitis
And this signaling, I’m imagining, is more sophisticated than removing em dashes.

Matt Abrahams
It is a little bit more sophisticated. If you think about it, I believe that in a world of AI, the ability to speak in the moment, on your feet, and be responsive in an agile, appropriate way is the thing that will set those who are expert apart from those who aren’t.

And so there are things that we can do to signal that. So, for example, we can connect what we’re saying to our life experience. So I could say, “You know, when I think about the answer to your question, it reminds me of a time when…” and then we tell that story.

Or we could, in our communication, tell how we are feeling in the moment, like, “That question really makes me ponder or question this approach.” And it is through those little tells and reveals that we actually show that we are thinking in the moment, that this is us live processing.

And that makes a difference because it allows us not only to demonstrate proof of human and proof of thought, but it’s endearing and connective instead of just rote recitation that many people are relying on.

Pete Mockaitis
You’re right. And I like that so much because that’s very simple, clear, and direct and the AI doesn’t tend to share with us its emotional reaction because it doesn’t have emotions, nor does it share its personal background history stories because it doesn’t have those either. And so that’s very simple right there.

And I think you really nailed it with regard to our live conversational exchanges, quite an impact in how folks judge us because if we look at any number of artifacts, whether that’s documents, reports, spreadsheets, whatever, it’s like before, I mean, we even see this in our business with the hiring for podcast production services.

Before we say, “Okay, well, we’ll ask all these questions, and if they can answer them, then they must be pretty smart.” And then now it’s like, “Well, we can’t do that anymore. It’s because they can just get those answers readily.” And not because the test has been published somewhere, but because ChatGPT can handle it, no problem.

And so you’re right, if the artifacts aren’t telling the story that I’m highly competent, then one of the few things we really have left is the live conversation in which we’re showing off how we think and what we can do.

Matt Abrahams
Absolutely. Communication is about connection and is demonstrating thought and empathy. And those are things that are difficult to do with AI. Again, AI has a place in our communication. I truly believe it can help us be better.

I talk about the empathy paradox. If I need to have a conversation with you, Pete, where I really want to make sure that my messaging aligns with your way of being in the world, I can work with AI in advance and have it help me think through ways of approaching you that might be different than I would normally approach other people. That’s great and that’s a useful tool.

However, if I just outsource all the most difficult communication I have to have, a bad performance review, or a breakup, or something of that nature, you know, empathy is a muscle. You need to train it. And if I just outsource it, I can have empathy atrophy. And that concerns me greatly, especially for younger generations who haven’t had to have those difficult conversations in the first place.

So we do need to take the time to really think through our communication, leverage AI appropriately, and then make sure we demonstrate that this is our own work. You and I grew up going to school where you had to show your work, and this is part of how we do it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you give us some stories that illustrate what you’re seeing with regard to empathy atrophy, or the landscape of us human thinkers, empathizers, communicators, and how we’ve already been influenced or altered by AI?

Matt Abrahams
So let me start with a story that I actually start the new chapter in the book with. And this happened to a friend of mine, a dear friend of mine. Like me, he teaches communication at the university level.

And he was applying for a new job. And he had a bunch of stuff going on in his life that was difficult for him, and so he prepared with AI. So he created answers through AI for questions he knew he was going to get asked. He memorized them. He had them up on the screen when he did the the Zoom interview.

And in the midst, you know, he gave good answers to questions that were prepared. And then the follow-up or the surprising questions he completely floundered on. And it was because he hadn’t done the necessary thinking through process to help himself be who he really was. I mean, he was eminently qualified for that job. Absolutely. He just had not prepared properly.

And this is happening all over the place. An investor I talked to, worked for a VC firm, I coached for a while. And he was promoted because of how good he was as an analyst. He was an amazing analyst. He relied on AI almost extensively to help him with the communication, the slides he presented, the documents he created.

And he was promoted to an investing position where he actually had to engage in conversation, give difficult feedback. And he was woefully inadequate because those communication skills that his leaders, bosses saw in him were not truly his. And he was in a position that he did not do well.

And it took a long time for him to get to a place where he could deliver at the level both his bosses and he expected of himself. So these are the ways that we’re seeing this over-reliance on AI manifest itself. Not to mention the times where people just jump to it whenever there’s a slightly difficult conversation.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay. Well, so, Matt, give us some step-by-step goodies that you recommend in such a world.

Matt Abrahams
Yeah, so a few things I’d recommend that people do. One is, as you are crafting communication to leverage the skills that AI can bring to you, the help, use it, as you mentioned, as Jeremy likes to talk about, a sparring partner.

So, for example, if I know I’m going into a job interview, I can have it present to me questions that I try to answer. Not like the person I talked about, to memorize the answers, but just to get through the pattern recognition of answering questions and, “How do I start?” It’s an agility drill. Athletes do a tremendous number of agility drills. AI is a great tool for that.

If you’re going into a meeting with a bunch of different people, assign AI different personalities, the skeptic, the supporter, and talk through with the AI what you would do and how you would respond. Again, helping you with pattern recognition, helping you expand your repertoire of communication in the moment. These are ways to leverage the tool to help.

And then when you’re actually delivering the communication, lean into the things that make you human. Share your in-the-moment feelings. Stop worrying about saying “um” or “ah” too much. These are things that we do in our normal everyday communication that help us connect.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. Okay. Well, so as we’re implementing these pieces, do you have any pro tips, do’s and don’ts along the path?

Matt Abrahams
So it takes time and it takes practice. I mean, the only way you get good at communication is three things: repetition, reflection, and feedback. So you need to get the reps. So if you want to figure out how do you incorporate AI into your communication or improve any communication, practice. Try it.

Do different things. Explore. AI can actually help you. You can say, “How can I use you to best help me in this circumstance?” Or, “How have others used you to help?” So you have to get the reps in. You then have to reflect.

One of the big challenges I have with my students is they’ll get information out from AI and they don’t take that extra step to reflect on the quality, the sourcing, or even, you know, “Is this helpful to me and what can I learn?”

There are ways, and I actually use AI in my classes, have my students use AI to help them. So they might, in preparing for a big presentation in my class, put in an outline and ask AI to make certain parts more concise or make parts more engaging. And then I force them to think about and talk about what the suggestions were.

Not that the suggestions the LLM created are correct, but, “What is it doing in this moment? And can you make a choice to lean into it or perhaps do something else?” So it is repetition, it is reflection, and then feedback. And you can use AI to help you give feedback. You can record things, upload it, and have it give you feedback.

But ask other people, as a result of whatever preparation you’ve used with AI to give you feedback, are you starting to sound like AI? A fascinating research recently released shows that our language choice, the words we’re choosing, is beginning to sound more and more like that that comes from AI. So we have to be careful.

If we all start using AI so much, we’re going to start to sound like AI and lose our way of expressing ourselves. The words we use reflect the thoughts we have and the way that we connect. So, to me, the answer to your question is repetition, reflection, and feedback.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m intrigued by when you said, upload the recording and have AI provide feedback. As far as I know, I hope you’re about to blow my mind with something new, no pressure, as far as I know, they can transcribe that and then give you feedback on the words. But are we also getting feedback on the vocal pitch, intonation, the pacing, like the pausing?

Matt Abrahams
Yeah, there are tools out there that leverage AI that do that. And some of the LLMs generally available have features as well. So, yes, it can talk about intonation, filler words, words of hesitation. And, again, this is all information that can be helpful to you, not to say that what the AI says is correct or perfect, but it’s information for you to reflect on and try and experiment.

A lot of successful communication is about A-B testing, trying different things out, getting feedback. I think real human feedback is essential, but also leveraging tools to help can be a good thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, no, I’m right with you with regard to the sparring partner idea and then the reps, and just as a tool for reflection as well. I remember I was working with someone who’s trying to improve on sales, and she was sending the whole transcript of the sales conversation, you know, through the AI and say, “Hey, I’d love your input on, like, what went well, what could have gone differently.”

And, again, none of us viewing it as the oracle of the almighty sales guru who has all sales knowledge, but rather by saying stuff back, you then have the opportunity to respond. And sometimes the response is, “No, you’re totally off base. That was exactly the right move.”

And then, ideally, you talk to an expert as well who will give you feedback in terms of it’s like, “Well, no, actually, the AI was on the money,” or, “No, it’s more nuanced than that,” you know, whatever. But just having something come back at you, just like hitting a ball against the wall, enables you to reflect on that and send the ball back to the wall. And in so doing, you’re getting better at hitting the ball with a bracket.

Matt Abrahams
Yeah, in all the work that I do, I get to travel all over the place, helping people and working on communication skills with people. You know, people define success of communication is survival, “I got through it. I’m done.” And they leave and they don’t think about, “How can I do it better? What did I learn?”

So this colleague who’s, you know, feeding things into a system, that’s a great way to start that process. But you then have to take it to the next step, and say, “Well, what could difference look like? How could I do this in a different way?” And that’s how we improve, and that’s how we all can get better. So that reflection step is really important.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, absolutely. And tell us, what are the tools that will also give us feedback on our pitch and pacing in a presentation?

Matt Abrahams
Well, there are many of them that exist, and everybody has to find their own that works best for them. I mean, I don’t want this to be a sales pitch for my stuff, but one of my students, upon graduation, created an AI coach version of me.

So I tried to get ChatMatt as a URL, but you can actually talk to it and feed in vocal cues and clues, and it’ll give you feedback on things like pitch and rate, etc. So there are tools out there that do it that can help you. But, again, communication is not all just that. It’s the constellation of everything that you do, and the rehearsal, the practice, the thought process, that’s all what’s critical.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I mean, that’s kind of you to not want to turn this into a pitch session, but feel free. So ChatMatt…

Matt Abrahams
Yeah, it’s a thing. Yeah, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
…will provide feedback on my pitch and my pacing in addition to my words.

Matt Abrahams
Absolutely. And it’ll give you feedback on lots of other things. If you’re struggling asking your boss for a raise or you have to raise an issue in a meeting that might be sensitive. My wife actually prefers to talk to my chat bot than to me. She said it actually listens better than I do.

When it was first coming out, we tested it with my two 20-something kids. Believe me, they put it to the test because we didn’t want it teaching bad things or inappropriate things. And with my younger son, the tool actually made him feel guilty.

He asked some silly question and it said, “I am a tool for serious communication development. When you’re ready to work on something serious, come back.” I thought that was lovely. We encoded guilt into it.

So it’s a tool that it’s been trained on my teachings, my work, and again, leveraging AI, I hope, for a good purpose. Literally, the way it’s designed, and again, this sounds too sales pitchy, but there’s a phone number you can call, like you’re calling a friend, and when you call, it will connect to the AI coach once you’ve signed up and everything.

And you can literally just have that, you say, “I’m about to walk into the room. I didn’t expect my boss’s boss to be in there. What’s something I can say that…?” you know? And it’ll respond in my voice. And so trying to use AI to help bring communication to the moment where people need that communication coaching.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s so good. Well, now you’ve got a fun term, you say old-school AI, which is authenticity and influence. You shared with us a couple quick tips in terms of making something all the more authentic and you. Anything else you’d add about influence in the age of AI?

Matt Abrahams
Yeah, absolutely. So in a world of AI, what becomes really important is the emotional connection. When we go to persuade people, it is really important that we not only persuade on facts and figures, which are important, but we also think about the emotional connection and component of our communication.

And that is something that is uniquely human. And we have to think about, “What is that emotional connection? How can I address and make that move forward?” And so we have to be thinking about that aspect as well.

So when it comes to persuasion, you know, some of these key elements we’ve known for millennia. It’s facts and figures, logos, it’s emotion, pathos, and it’s your credibility, how you show up in the background that you have.

I like to distinguish when I teach credibility to my MBA students, there’s what I call career and college credibility and Costco credibility. And career and college credibility is what most of us think about. It’s what’s on our LinkedIn profiles, on our resumes, on our vitaes.

But Costco credibility sometimes is more important. When you go to Costco, they give you free samples of food. Why would they do that? It’s not a great business model unless, when you try the food, you like it and then you buy it. They’re showing you the value.

So career and college credibility, really important. And AI can help you perfect that. But your lived experience, the showing of your credibility, that’s where you can really lean into this emotional connection.

You know, it’s one thing to say, “I won the Sales Person of the Year Award five times in a row.” It’s another thing to say, “Here’s how my sales methodology worked in this particular session, and this is what helped me close the deal.” Very different way of communicating your credibility.

So it’s thinking about the emotion, it’s leaning into the lived experience of your credibility, that’s the old-school influence piece that really makes a difference. And when you partner that with some of the things AI can bring to you, can make a really powerful combination.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that a lot. The ‘show me’ instead of ‘telling me’ of it, and the Costco sample concept. As we speak, I’m looking at my sound absorbing panels in the studio. And I ordered them from Music City Acoustics. And the way they got me was I was just looking up some YouTube video, like, “Okay, so how do I think about echo in this room? And what do we really need to do with that?”

And they showed me this detailed use of a software program and a microphone to calibrate it, to figure out the decay rate of different frequencies, and I was like, “Okay, this guy is a super expert on room echo maybe more than anyone that I’ve ever encountered, and he’s, you know, less than an hour away in Nashville. We’re just going to go ahead and hire them.” And that was that.

Because you get sound panels from a lot of places, but these folks are going to optimally size and place these bad boys better than I could possibly understand.

Matt Abrahams
Absolutely. And that experience you had influenced you, and that makes a big difference. Showing, it really does help.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Matt, tell me, anything else we really should make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Matt Abrahams
The one thing that I heard the most when I was traveling all over the world is people said, “How do I deal with conflict that sparks in the moment, you know, all of a sudden, you’re having a conversation, and somebody gets upset?”

So I added a whole chapter in the applied section of the book, talking about this, how to manage conflict in the moment. And it really boils down to just some very straightforward, simple practices. First, you have to acknowledge what’s happening, right? You don’t have to agree, but you have to acknowledge, “I hear, Pete, that you’re bothered or upset or passionate about that issue.” Name it.

And then give somebody room to actually state their position. We often go into defense mode and we assume that anybody’s position is equal in valence and significance to ours. And so we have to really listen and understand, and maybe even explicitly say, “How important is this to you?”

I’ll give you an example. My wife and I learned from some friends of ours a long time ago to do this. If we have a potential disagreement, the very first thing we’ll do is we’ll say, “How important is this to you on a scale of one to ten?”

And if you have a partner that you can trust, this is a wonderful way to diffuse conflict. So let’s say my wife, we agree we’re going out to dinner, but she says she wants Mexican food and I would like Chinese food. Potential conflict.

But if she says, “Hey, Mexican food is a three,” and for me it’s a seven, then there’s no conflict. We make this assumption that our partner or partners that we’re struggling with see the world and have the same level of import to whatever it is we’re discussing that we do.

So you have to acknowledge, you have to listen, you have to ascertain priority, “How important is this?” And then you have to do the hard work of figuring out, “What are the ways that we can work together to consider this, knowing that it’s about collaboration and not about competition?”

And so if we can do these things, all of a sudden, in the moment, spontaneous conflict and challenge can be managed much more directly. And then you can rely on some of the tools and tips that I’ve shared with you and others that are earlier in the book around, “How do you structure your information?” You don’t just ramble and list things.

You might use a structure like, “What?” “So what?” “Now what?” “What?” “Here’s my position or my suggestion. So what? Why it’s important and how I think it’ll help us. And now what are my suggested next steps?”

So in any spontaneous speaking situation, you have to deal with mindset and you have to deal with messaging. So the mindset is acknowledging, listening, understanding the prioritization. And then the messaging is taking whatever solution collaboratively that you come up with and packaging it in a way so somebody else can say it.

So, sorry for the long-winded answer, but that’s also another important part of this update and, really, a significant part of how we get better at communicating.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think that’s very helpful and needed, and that’s a nice move in terms of, “How important is this to you?” And, indeed, you would have to have some trust because, then, I guess you could win every time, like, “Nine. This is nine-level importance.”

Matt Abrahams
Well, with my kids, everything is a ten. Everything with my kids, that’s a ten. So you have to calibrate. You have to calibrate, but it makes a big difference.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, understood. And I also want your take, in terms of in the heat of the moment conflict, I think those are very great. Maybe you’d say, top down perspectives in terms of the issues, and how important they are, and thinking about them logically and rationally and not jumping to conclusions about, “Oh, they’re really mad, and they must have it this way,” you know? So very wise.

I’m curious about some of the, maybe, bottom-up perspectives of just keeping your cool in that moment. Any pro tips there?

Matt Abrahams
Right. So it can be really hard. We can be emotionally triggered very easily around something that’s really important to us. There’s a whole bunch of other factors that could go into it. If we’re tired, if we’re coming out of, you know, the fourth meeting, this is the third thing that didn’t go well today.

So the ability, and this comes from mindfulness training, the ability to acknowledge, “This is how I am feeling,” gives you a little bit of space to do something about it. So rather than being absorbed by the feeling, say, “This is me feeling frustrated.” “This is me feeling really sad by what the person just said.”

By saying those words to yourself, you give yourself a little bit of psychological distance so that you can do something. It gives you just a little bit of space. Also, if you can do something physical, ground yourself, feel the ground through your feet or your shoes, touch something. That gets you out of that emotional state so you can make a more rational decision.

Now I am not saying that emotions are bad. They are very important. Emotions signal that something needs to be done. But, at the same time, when emotionally triggered, it can hamper or actually lead to bad communication. So we need to actually give ourselves a little space.

And maybe the best thing for me to do, Pete, is to say, “You know, that comment was hurtful. And I need to take just a little bit of time before you and I can come back and talk about this more.” Taking that time out for yourself will help you tremendously. It’ll help you get your thoughts ordered. It’ll help you sort through the emotion. And it, ultimately, will help you deliver a better message.

So, you’re right, emotions loom large and we have to be prepared for those, and we have to just name them and maybe do something physical to help give us just that little bit of space.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Matt Abrahams
“No matter where you go, there you are.” It really helps to remind me that the place I need to be at this moment is right here and with the person or people that I’m with, instead of the three other things that I could, should, would be doing. It makes me chuckle a little bit because it’s a little, you know, it makes a lot of intuitive sense, but it’s also very memorable.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And could you mention a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Matt Abrahams
I’ve been talking a lot about language and framing. And so my favorite framing research is very simple. These researchers went to a group of people and said, “Imagine you have a terrible disease. We have a potential cure. It has a 67% failure rate.”

They then went to another group of people, just like the first group, and said, “Imagine you have a terrible disease. We have a potential cure. It has a 33% success rate. Would you like to take it?” I hope you agree, a 67% failure rate, a 33% success rate is the same thing. Yet dramatically, people take the treatment, the imagined treatment, when it is framed as something positive.

And I’m not saying this means you should always frame things positive. What I’m saying is we need to think about how we use language to help us. I’ll give you an example. I work with a lot of people pitching ideas. You can frame a pitch as a problem that you are solving or an opportunity that you’re going to capture. You get a choice.

And you have to think about, “Which way will work best for my audience?” And here’s where you can test it out on people, or you can use AI to help you think through your audience, “Are these the kind of people who are more problem-focused or more opportunity-focused?”

But the way we use words to help us move people in the direction we want to, really, is something I’ve been focusing on a lot lately.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that is intriguing, and I actually want to dig into this a little bit more.

Matt Abrahams
Sure.

Pete Mockaitis
I would imagine, you tell me, since you’ve lived it with so many clients. My hunch is “the problem we’re solving” frame works better if the investors are folks who care passionately about that specific issue, like, “Hey, you know what, my child had that problem. Wow, yes, I am touched and moved and would love to be a part of solving that,” versus if they’re just, you know, money-hungry and return-maximizing investors, “Oh, yeah, let’s talk opportunity.” That’s my guess. What’s the reality, Matt?

Matt Abrahams
I think your intuition is probably right. If people have a connection to an issue, a problem, that framing it that way works. The breakdown that I, typically, see and talk about is, when you have people who you’re communicating with, who are deeply in the depths, the belly of whatever the topic is, people who are deeply financial, people who are highly technical, people who are very scientific, they tend to like to solve problems.

When they were in school, they did problem sets. They didn’t do opportunity sets. So framing it for the way they are in the world, their background, works. But when you’re in sales, when you’re in marketing, when you’re in senior leadership, often it’s about the opportunities that lie ahead.

So I think it’s multidimensional. I think part of it is people’s backgrounds and just how they are in the world, but also, their connection to the topic also makes sense to me. I just am not aware of any research that bears out your hypothesis, although, to me, intuitively, it makes sense.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Matt Abrahams
The book I’ll share with you, from my dear friend Patricia Ryan Madsen. If you don’t know Patricia, you should get to know her. She wrote a book called Improv Wisdom. Very short, little book. It’s about how you can apply improvisation principles to your life.

So it’s not about getting up on a stage and trying to be funny. It’s about, “In my everyday life, how can I leverage ideas from improv to help me be more responsive and to be more connected and communicate better?”

It’s a lovely book. I mean, this is a book that I return to and I think everybody should give it a read. It is fun and helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool?

Matt Abrahams
I’ll give you an app because I use it all the time. And, again, I’m not trying to sell it, although, I have. It’s called Superhuman.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I love it. I use it all the time.

Matt Abrahams
Yes, it is great. So you know the power of it. It allows me to be more efficient in my written communication. And I am at least 30-35% more effective in my emails, of which I get hundreds, and it helps me be smarter in the way I communicate. So that is probably the most useful tool that I have.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s so funny, Matt, we usually have to keep the fast phase fast, but you’re just so intriguing here. So I love Superhuman because, one, it’s a blazingly fast interface. And it really kind of subtly trains you to use those shortcut keys.

Like, “Hey, these are here. Go ahead and use them. You know what? You’re right.” So it’s super responsive. The shortcuts, I’m grooving in with them. Oh, I like the split inboxes. It can identify a pitch roughly with AI so that they’re just in a separate tab of pitches. So I just go forward them to all of my team. Boom! Boom! Boom! Boom! Boom! But tell me, what are you finding transformational about Superhuman?

Matt Abrahams
So I, as a teacher, pretty regularly, send out very similar messages to people, and they have a feature called Snippet, and it allows you to, very quickly, send out similar emails. That’s the one that I rely on a lot as well.

And their built-in AI, I cannot tell you how many times I’ve used the built-in AI to help me find like, “Who is that person I talked to in an email three years ago?” you know? And it used to be I’d scroll through my sent folder and try, I might misspell their name. So those are the two features beyond what you have said that I use.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I guess that semantic piece really can come in handy. It’s like, “I don’t remember the key word we said, but it was a guy trying to sell me a thing with a video a couple years ago.”

Matt Abrahams
Thing, yeah, three years ago.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s like enough of those, you know, very vague descriptors chained together. It’s like, “Oh, I can work with that.” And then it’s like, “Oh, yeah, that’s the one. Thank you.”

Matt Abrahams
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Matt Abrahams
This is going to sound funny, but I play darts. So I have an outdoor dartboard, and every day I try to go out. I’ve done martial arts for a long, long time, and as part of that, I took up archery and I found it very calming to focus.

Unfortunately, my wife won’t let me shoot arrows in my house, or around my house, and the archery range is a little farther away. And I found that throwing darts is helpful as well. It helps me be very present, it helps me focus, and I kind of have fun doing it. So that’s a habit that I’ve been enjoying recently.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And is there a key nugget you share that really connects and resonates with folks, they quote back to you often?

Matt Abrahams
The one that I think most recently and relates to the new edition of the book is, “You can prepare to be spontaneous.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Matt Abrahams
I would point them, first and foremost, to FasterSmarter.io. FasterSmarter.io is the source of all of the resources and the show, Think Fast, Talk Smart that I host. I’m a big, big user of LinkedIn. Happy to have you jump on there. And we have a newsletter you can sign up for at either FasterSmarter.io or on LinkedIn, and would love to connect with people in any way.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Matt Abrahams
Yeah, so I challenge everybody to take a moment to work on and reflect on your communication. I’ll tell you a practice I do. Every night before I go to bed, in my journal, I will write one thing that went well in my communication that day and one thing that didn’t go as well.

And then every Sunday, I go back and review for three or four minutes, and I make a plan for the following week of how to improve something that I was not pleased with. And that act of doing that makes a huge difference. I’m not saying I’m a great communicator, but I’m a much better communicator because of that.

So I challenge everybody listening to spend some time just reflecting on what worked and what didn’t, either in your communication or others, and think about how you could change your communication for the better.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Matt, thank you.

Matt Abrahams
Pete, thank you. This has been a wonderful pleasure to come back and chat with you. Thanks.

Pete Mockaitis
Montana, welcome!

Montana Von Fliss
Hello. Pete, hi! Thank you so much for having me!

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. It’s great to have you here. I’m excited to talk about confidence. Tell us, you’ve done a lot of coaching with a lot of people. Is there a top thing about confidence that has really surprised you and your clients again and again?

Montana Von Fliss
Yeah, that confidence is not an innate trait. You don’t have to be born confident. It can be learned. It is a skill that you can practice and learn.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. That is encouraging. I guess that’s what we’re trying to do here. Otherwise, it’d be a very short interview, Montana.

Montana Von Fliss
I think so.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s learnable. Cool. All right. Well, so I’d love to hear perhaps an inspiring story of just that, someone who was not so confident, learned the things to do, did those things, and walked out much more confident.

Montana Von Fliss
I think I’m a great example of that. I certainly wanted to be on stage. From a very young age, I wanted to be an actor, and that was the path that I went down. But I also almost always felt nervous stepping on a stage, sometimes downright terrified, really. And yet I just kept doing it because I loved everything about it.

So, I just kept doing it, sort of stubbornly just kept doing it. And I am the poster child for, if you just keep going, keep practicing, keep giving it a go, keep going up for that next time at bat, you will improve in many ways, really, but certainly, I think, in terms of confidence.

And I can tell you a very specific story about how I sort of figured out a little hack to how I could reliably give myself the confidence I needed to get on big stages.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, so you’re feeling nervous. What happened next?

Montana Von Fliss
Well, at first, I just white-knuckled it like, “Uh, I don’t like this feeling. We’re on the roller coaster, but I guess the show’s about to start. So here we go.” And I just sort of would get through it, I guess. I didn’t have a plan. I just thought, “This is terrible.” And then, life would move on, and I would try to push it down, stop it from happening.

But over time, I just kept sort of banging my head against that wall, so to speak. And I came to this realization, like, “Well, that’s not working. So what else could I try?”

And I realized that I was memorizing my lines, I was working very hard on what I was saying out loud. So when I was an actor, those were memorized verbatim scripts, right? If I was a presenter or a speaker in a professional context, then I was writing those words myself and I was spending time crafting that narrative. But I wasn’t spending any time writing, crafting, exploring, playing with the narrative I had in my head, right?

And the moment I decided to apply what I do for my out-loud text to that inner text, everything changed. I was like, “Wow, you can do this? You can go in there and sort of tinker with how you talk to yourself?” And that began this really great ever-evolving, it’s still evolving for me, grand experiment in how you talk to yourself and how you can change that up and how much it really matters in terms of the result in your performance.

Pete Mockaitis
Intriguing. So, thinking about the lines that you’re saying to yourself and then proactively reshaping them so you’re not just the actor, but the playwright. Nifty. Could we hear some examples of some common inner texts or lines that you said to yourself frequently and what you decided to substitute in, in the edit?

Montana Von Fliss
Absolutely. So, a common one for me was, and still sometimes is, something like, “You better be perfect. Don’t mess up. What if they find out that you’re not very good at this, that you’re not the person to listen to on this topic?” Definitely a lot of thoughts like that. “Don’t mess up,” a lot of things like that. And sometimes even kind of ugly or darker ones, like, “What if they don’t like you?” which is interesting.

But, anyway, I’m sure people can relate to whatever your own little unhelpful thoughts that come in. So, those would come in. And again, normally, I think I would just sort of be in the grip of these thoughts, like they would sort of take over and then, at some point, I would just walk out onto the stage with these thoughts running.

Now, still a win, I walked out onto the stage. But once I started making my own silent script for the moments before I stepped on the stage, then I would have an answer available to those sentences. So, for example, when I would hear something like, “You better be perfect,” the moment I became aware that I was getting that old message again, I would say, “Oh, I hear you. Thank you. Thank you for trying to protect me.” That’s a new one. I’m slipping in there, “Thank you.”

You know, it’s like my anxiety or whatever, trying to protect me, “Thank you. That is not my measure of success for this presentation. My measure of success is have I helped at least one person in this room?” Now that came out of me setting the silent sentence, the intention, that what I want to do with this presentation is help at least one person here today, right?

So, that was me sort of sitting down and, like, rewriting that silent narrative in my head and having that little silent script ready so that, when that ugly unhelpful thought came in, I actually had something there, memorized, practiced in the script.

Now, sometimes it turns into a little dialogue where it will go, like, “But, but, but have you thought of this? What about this other fear? Excuse me, what about tripping? Have you thought about tripping? Have you thought about what if the tech doesn’t work?”

At first, that kind of bummed me out, that like, “Ah, my little trick didn’t just make anxiety, you know, poof and disappear.” But then I realized, after watching Inside Out 2, seriously, I realized, “Well, what if all the emotions, including anxiety and fear, are on my side? They’re there to help me. So it’s just doing its job, right?”

So it says, “Be afraid of this thing.” And I go, “Thank you. Thank you so much for trying to protect me,” which, by the way, that immediately starts to change the relationship, “I’m doing this.” And then I say, I sort of take back my power by saying, “Here’s what I’m going to do. I am going for the goal of helping at least one person here.”

It usually doesn’t go, “Oh, okay, cool. You got this.” It usually goes, “But, but, but how about this?” And I go, “Thank you. I hear you. And I’m going to keep walking to that stage because I really want to help that person who’s out there waiting for me, right?”

So I, generally, have to insist gently, kindly, with gratitude, insist that I’m going to do the thing that I set out to do. And that, I have to be honest, I’m still shaking, like the adrenaline burst has already happened. The fear chemicals have been released. So I’m still shaking. I’m still sweating.

I’m still having those thoughts of like, “Well, why don’t we just run away instead? Wouldn’t that be better if we just didn’t do this?” And I just have to gently, almost like a parent talking to a child, like, “I hear you that you want to do that and we’re going to do this other thing instead. You are going to wear your jacket as we go out into the snow, yeah?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, I like that a lot, the assertive, decisive, clear word to yourself. And I think that, just at the gym this morning, I was sort of annoyed by some things that are on the TV. I don’t even remember what it was. It was like an advertisement or a program that I just thought it was a waste of time, unnecessary, distracting, and irritating. I’d rather just not have all those screens going, you know?

So there was something going on. And I could go down a loop of, “Oh, why is this like this? I don’t like that. That’s so annoying. Why don’t people…?” you know, whatever. Just a whole whiny interrogation that doesn’t really lead to insights.

And I just found myself saying internally, “I refuse to spend a second attending to that.” And I did. And it was like, “I’m just going to look not at those screens, but elsewhere,” and it was a much more enjoyable experience. So I love that, that it’s decisive, it’s assertive, and you call the shots, you have the authority, and you take it and you deploy it with a definitive statement.

Montana Von Fliss
That’s a great example. And that, to me, was revolutionary. You know, realizing that, at any moment, I have the power to make a different choice and, especially, I have all the choice in the world about how I talk to myself. And how you talk to yourself really matters, and we do it all day long, right? Pick up glass. Take sip of water. We’re really good at following our own instructions.

But the trick is sort of noticing that and then going, “Oh, how would I like to maybe tinker with that?” especially if it’s not working very well for us, right? And I think that is not necessarily a new idea, the fact that we can edit our self-talk, we can practice positive and constructive self-talk.

But the idea that I’m adding to it is, “Why not put it in the script?” Like, it’s the silent part of the script before you begin speaking, or perhaps it’s in the pauses in between, or really anytime you need it, but put it in the script and practice it as much as you’re practicing the out loud bit.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I like that a lot.

Montana Von Fliss
So it becomes part of the script. It becomes default. It becomes part of you, just as easily as you can rattle off, I don’t know, the three points that you’re deciding to speak for this communication. You’re also just as able to access that silent instruction that is more constructive and is setting you up for where you want to go.

Pete Mockaitis
Let’s hear about practicing it, what does that look like in practice, the practicing of the internal dialogue?

Montana Von Fliss
Yeah, so, I mean it when I say it’s the silent part of the script. So, actually, write it down in your script or however you keep your notes. I put it in parentheses myself, just as a signal to myself that it’s an internal thought. It’s an inside voice rather than something I intend to say.

And so, whatever kind of notes you use, that can be, you know, the little speaker notes in PowerPoint or that could be, like, sometimes I’ll write it down on a sticky note and tape it to my monitor if it’s a virtual presentation. But, certainly, it is part of the script such that every time you run it, every time you practice it, you will start with a silent sentence, and then go to the out loud part.

So, an example of that, you know, mine, I have several. Now, the one that I mentioned in my TED Talk is, “I invite you to be here with me while I am here with you so that I can help you to the best of my ability.” Now, that’s long, but I’ve said it so many times that it’s just right there for me. Sometimes I will collapse it and just say, “Invite and help.” And it does the job for me because I have it so ingrained and such a habit, and it brings all the goodness.

Lately, I’ve been loving the silent sentence, “Let’s grow. Let’s grow.” So short, but it’s got the “Let’s,” which got the invitation part built in, which I love. And then “Let’s grow,” right, it reminds me that we’re both learning. I may be giving the presentation, but I’m learning, too, as we’re doing this and we’re partners in this, yeah?

So, the way that that might look, I’ll have, “Let’s grow” at the top of my script. So, inside my head while I’m doing a rehearsal or practice run, right, it’ll be something like, and this is the silent part, I would say, “All right, I invite you to be here with me while I’m here with you so that we can grow and learn together.” Or, perhaps it’s, “Let’s grow. Hi, my name is Montana Von Fliss. Prepare to be amazed,” or whatever my intro is, right, that I say out loud.

So, it would, literally, if someone were watching me, it would look like me looking around at my imagined audience. Then they would hear me say, “Hi, my name is Montana Von Fliss,” etc. Yeah, so it might not look like much, but what you’re doing there is you’re saying that silent bit in your head, the silent part of the script, you say your out loud part. And then when you go back to start again, you start with that silent sentence.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s really cool, in terms of thinking about integrating the silent sentence in any place you are doing a meeting, a speech, a presentation, or just, like, a one-on-one conversation with someone that you’ve done some prep for because it’s part of it and it’s to yourself and then it shapes what follows. And I just think that’s a cool thing where you might integrate in all kinds of conversations. And I think that’s really nifty.

Montana Von Fliss
Absolutely. Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
I guess I was curious to hear with practicing internally, if what I imagined was when you said you’re in your internal script, you might go with, “Oh, what if I mess up? You better be perfect.” And then you have your response that you’ve practiced internally, which is, “Well, hey, I succeed if I’ve transformed just one person,” or that kind of a response.

What’s funny for me is, I think, because I’ve been there, and then I’ve had the worry. I’ve had the response about one person. And then I’ve got the counter response like, “Well, Pete, if there’s 300 people in this audience, and you’ve only transformed one people, then 299 people have wasted their time. And that’s really a failure for what you have done to all of these people.”

So, not to diminish that very powerful, hopeful, useful thought, but when the brain is in scared, anxious zone, or just snippy, grumpy, and goes there, do you practice the counter counter-response, or do you just redirect like, “Well, we’re doing this now”? Or, how does that work internally and how do you practice that?

Montana Von Fliss
I always have a counter response, but it usually stems from what my base thought or my initial silent sentence was. So, for example, if my silent sentence is, “I’m here to help at least one person in this room,” and then the counter thought is, “Yeah, but it’s a failure if you don’t help the other 299.”

I’d say, “And I said, I want to help at least one person. Everyone is invited to this information and these new ideas. But my personal goal is that I want to reach that one person who gets me, who needs to hear what I have and really plugs into my way of looking at it.”

So, do you hear that counter response is really just an emphasis of my original thought?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear you and I just wonder about, and maybe I’ve just got a nasty mind.

Montana Von Fliss
No, keep going. I love this. Keep going.

Pete Mockaitis
But I can counter, counter, counter the response is like, “Well, your goal is lame and you should raise your standards.”

Montana Von Fliss
Yeah, you can totally, oh, man, have I had all of those thoughts, “Your goal is lame.” Yes, you might, “Thank you for protecting me. Thank you for helping me to think of that.” And I would say, “I’m making a doable goal. And if I get more, then I have a higher likelihood of success.” And that helps me, right, to go, “Oh, I can get at least one person.”

The other thing it helps me to do, and I might remind myself of this if I’m having this little internal talk, is it always helps me to think of, regardless of how many people are in the room, it helps me to think of the power of one-on-one communication. Like, I do better in one-on-one communication. So I’m going to borrow that superpower of mine, and I’m going to activate it by thinking of this as a one-on-one, even though everyone in the room is invited, right?

So that is part of what I’m doing, is getting the best out of me by thinking of it this way. So we’re going to keep going with the idea of, “I’m going to help at least one person,” so I can activate that one-on-one communication style. And I also know, like it might go, “But, but, but, but,” I also know that I can’t control other people. I can only invite them. So all 300 are certainly invited to the information.

But I know that I’m very achievement-oriented. So if I make it a doable achievement, meaning, like, this is a goal that I am more likely to attain then I do better. That’s another part of just knowing myself and knowing what motivates me, right? So I might say, “I’m just making an attainable goal for myself. All 300 are certainly invited.” Does that make sense? Does that help?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes, thank you.

Montana Von Fliss
Like, I mean, and I go on, like I have conversations with myself, or, I don’t know, my other selves. They could be my other selves, maybe my younger self. It could be my anxiety or fear, but I have full-on dialogues. So, don’t be surprised because it makes sense that it wants to continue to bargain with you in this way.

Like, because imagine you’re walking into a burning building, right, and you’re like, “Oh, I’m going to go save my Macbook in that burning building,” and your fear is going, “Don’t go into a burning building. Don’t do that. You could die. Don’t do that.”

Imagine if you just went, “Hey, it’s cool. I got this.” It wouldn’t stand down. It wouldn’t say, “Oh, okay.” It would keep trying to stop you because that’s its job is to keep you safe. And going up to speak in front of many people, and it activates a similar sort of fight or flight fear mechanism in us, right?

So it’s not unusual for it to keep fighting, to keep you safe, keep you from going on that stage. It’s just, “Do you have a prepared sentence and sort of the surrounding logic that you wholeheartedly believe in to respond to it in that moment?”

And I have found that it works best when they are tied to what you care deeply about, like, “Why are you doing this?” And even sometimes, “Why are you here on this planet? What is your purpose on this earth?” Like, I feel genuinely, I am here, in part, anyway, to help others be able to step on a stage, and to feel a little bit of ease, maybe even just find a process and a way to manage through it so that they can do it more effectively, right?

So when I attached to that in my own personal example of, like, “I’m just here to help one person,” that’s activating something extremely powerful in me. I will walk through hot coals, Pete, to help you for your next presentation. Like, that’s just how I’m built.

So, when I remind myself of that in that moment of extremis, in that moment when I’m sort of hijacked by fight, flight, you know, that fear, it acts like this override switch and I will do it kind of no matter what, is how it feels. And so, when you dig around for that for yourself, you’ll sort of know it when you feel it. Like, “Why did I say yes to this presentation? Well, my boss told me so.”

But then dig further, “Well, I like keeping my job. I like feeding my family. Well, maybe that’s it. Maybe the image of my little daughter is the thing that pulls me onto that stage or up in front of that group of people.”

Maybe you’re like me and you really love helping people, you love sharing information. Maybe it’s like problem solving. I love sharing a solution to a problem that you might have. Like, that just lights me up. Like, problem solving and puzzle solving, yeah?

When you find out what that is, that has energy, huge energy. And when you get that, like, you grab it, you write the silence sentence down, you practice it, when that voice that wants to argue with you comes in, I promise you, if you’re attached to that deeper why, you will have all the right answers to, essentially, redirect yourself to what your priority actually is in this moment.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so we’ve covered the internal dialogue. Excellent. How about practicing the actual external speech?

Montana Von Fliss
So practice is probably my best piece of advice as a speaker coach. It’s also probably my most ignored piece of advice. And I understand. I don’t feel like practicing pretty much ever, but I just learned as an actor, that was my first profession. I learned through that job that practice is everything. Practice is how you get ready for any type of performance, speech.

And, by the way, we already know this. We apply it easily to something like if you want to learn a musical instrument or if you want to learn a sport, right? We never go, “Okay, everybody, we have a big soccer game on Saturday. So let’s all go home and just think about how we’re all going to do well on that day, right? And then see you on Saturday,” right?

No, we would practice it as much as possible. We’d practice specific plays and all sorts of things. And yet, when it comes to public speaking, presentations, for some reason, we don’t automatically apply that. And I’m not exactly sure why, but that is another thing I’m here to tell the world. Truly, the best thing you can do is practice.

So, what that looks like is actually standing up, saying it out loud, running through your script, however you have your notes, have those up, run through your slides if you have them, imagine the audience, invite them in, make it all be like it will be on the day. If you’re going to be seated, if it’s something like a virtual presentation, open up whatever virtual platform you’re going to be on and be seated how you’re going to be seated.

Test your tech, but also run through your presentation out loud as if the audience is there. And that’s what it looks like. Really actually doing it. It’s like if you were going to learn the piano, you would actually play that piano. You would play it, right, to get better at it, to prepare for that concert on Friday.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. And so, that’s the practicing of the external speech. And just a side note, I remember we had Diane DiResta some time ago on the show, and I said, “How much should we practice?” And she gave a very definitive answer, “Six sticks. Do the whole run through six times.” It’s like, “All right, that’s very precise.” What’s your hot take on how much practice is the right amount?

Montana Von Fliss
Yeah, it’s different for everyone, but I’ll tell you what I do. If there’s a presentation coming up for me in about a week, I will start practicing once a day.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s about six, seven. Yeah, that’s about six or seven times. There you go.

Montana Von Fliss
Yeah, so I definitely agree with that advice. So a week or two before, put it in your calendar. Practice a little bit every day. I would do, personally, I would do a full run through every day. I would also take the intro, like whatever that is for you, could be like the first 30 seconds or so, and your final sentence. So those two bookends. And I would run those three times in a row out loud, multiple times a day from wherever.

So, like, if you’re in the shower or cooking dinner or exercising. Because if those are strong and ready and available to you and they’re really boiled down and just exactly what you wish to say to tee up the entire communication, as well as to close it out strongly and stick that landing, oh, my goodness, that is so effective. So effective. So that’s how I would practice.

And then you have to figure out how to make yourself do this. And that goes to digging into, like, what motivates you. And you can go back to that great recent episode you had with Chris Bailey. I loved that one about figuring out how you particularly are motivated through your own principles and your own levers.

And so, what is that for you? And then build that in. So maybe I don’t get a second cup of coffee until I do my run through. Maybe I go, “Oh, I’ll just do five minutes.” And then, of course, I end up doing 15. Whatever that is for you to get you to just do it.

Pete Mockaitis
In a way, that’s the mini game or challenge in and of itself. It’s like, “What needs to happen for me to do it? Okay. All right. Well, let’s just do that real quick. All right, now we’re set.” As opposed to just getting in a loop of, “Oh, I don’t want to. That sounds hard. It’s uncomfortable. It’s boring. There’s a really great show I want to watch.”

You know, it’s sort of picking a new question, a new game, it’s like, “All right. Well, what’s it going to take to do this shortly? Coffee might be the answer. It could be something else.”

Montana Von Fliss
Yeah, what is your driver? And, really, you are the only one who knows that. I know some people also feel kind of funny either seated or standing up in their office or wherever, by themselves running through it. Like, that can feel silly or strange to them, especially if they don’t have a lot of performance experience.

And I get that, right? But you just have to kind of get over it. Just do it a couple of times and get over it. Because, again, doing the thing is how you will get better at the thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly.

Montana Von Fliss
So that means doing it on your own. I will say, like, whatever kind of little ladder you need, like what is the smallest step you can take, and then slowly work up that ladder. So, for example, maybe you just do your intro and you’re all really like, “What do I want to say? It’s kind of…No, maybe I should sit and write it out and just think about it a whole bunch.”

I would recommend instead, just say it. Say it imperfectly out loud. Say it to the cereal boxes. They are rather – what – non-judgmental. And then after you’ve done that a couple of times, move to some art on the wall. Go to a lovely piece of art. A little more judgment there. Say it again. Then move to a beating heart, right? Do you have a pet? Say it to them. Start with the cat, then move to the dog, right?

Or, the other way around, maybe start with the dog with a little more love and acceptance, then move to the cat, then move to a human, a human being who loves and trusts you would be a good choice, I would say, right? And then maybe a dry run with your colleagues and then the wider audience.

Somewhere in there, by the way, too, you have a video camera in your pocket. Video yourself, watch it back. And I know everybody at that moment goes, “Ugh, that’s the only one, Montana, that I am not willing to do.” And I hear you and I want to tell you, every human, I believe every human feels that. Pretty much everyone feels that, “Ugh, I don’t want to watch myself, whatever that is,” that kind of discomfort.

It might feel a little funny, but wouldn’t you rather see it in advance and be able to have the opportunity to make an adjustment before you share it with a wider audience?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, a lot of good stuff there. Excellent. Thank you. Well, you also mentioned in your TEDx Talk, we’ve got five techniques to appear confident even if we’re not feeling it. We talked about the silent sentence and some purposeful practice. Can you give us a quick pro tip on energy levels, strategic pauses, and confident body language?

Montana Von Fliss
Yeah, well, they’re two sides to the same coin, right, if you want to look confident, sound confident, be confident on a stage. One side that we’ve spent most of our time on so far is about sort of building that confidence. You can’t always have or make yourself have a feeling, but you can invite it, right? And that’s what the silent sentence is about.

The other side of that coin of confidence is how to look and sound confident regardless of how you’re feeling, regardless of how much sleep you got the night before. And that really comes through the physical and vocal choices that you make on a stage, whether it’s virtual or in person, because we read a lot about each other based on our body language, facial expression, vocal dynamics, all of that kind of stuff, right?

So, the cool thing is that knowing that, that we read so much about that and that we can’t yet read each other’s minds, so we won’t ever know if you are actually nervous as a speaker, unless you show us or tell us. So you can use these three tips to look confident, regardless. And that is number one, turn up the energy and speak up. Number two, pause like a boss.

Number three is walk in there like a superhero. Stand in superhero. Sit like a superhero. How would a superhero sit, you know? And so, that first one is volume. Speak up. It’s hard for a lot of people to do that, truly, especially if they have maybe some cultural, different cultural background, or sometimes some stuff from childhood with parents who thought you should be seen and not heard. There’s a lot in there.

But I will tell you this idea. First of all, if it’s on a scale of one to 10, just shoot for a five. Just one notch up. That’s all you got to go for. You don’t have to shout. In fact, you know, unless you’re on some keynote stadium, you really don’t. Please don’t shout. But just turn it up one notch maybe or shoot for that five.

And the other thought there I find helpful is it really makes your audience feel more comfortable. So, for example, if I walk out and I’m like, “Hey, Pete, my name is Montana, and I’m going to give you this awesome tip about how to be better at your job,” you’d be like, “Okay, no thanks,” right? And that’s just for the most part volume.

If I move from, that was down here, maybe like out of three, and you move it right up here to a five, suddenly, it sounds prepared, confident, like I want to be here. And that doesn’t mean I actually feel that on the inside. You might be feeling hungry or tired or nervous, but if you raise the volume just a bit, they will never know. They will never know. How cool is that?

Pausing. The second one is it takes some practice, but it’s a totally learnable skill, and it sounds so confident. Just think about any great leader, any great speaker. They can pause like a boss. And it is the antidote to verbal filler. If you video yourself and watch it back, if you actually do that tip and you, “Uh-oh, I’m doing all kinds of ums.” A few ums, who cares? But if you’re doing ums every time there’s a pause or between every sentence, just pause instead, take a breath instead. So powerful.

And the third one is body language. And, I mean, that encapsulates a lot, like how to master confident body language. But that’s why I say just walk in there like a superhero, because it sort of does it all, right? It’s better eye contact. It’s a more commanding posture rather than like a closed body language, making yourself smaller or crossing your arms in front of you. It’s more open body language.

And it’s also a vibe. It’s a vibe of, like, “Yes, I got you. I got you.” And all of these, again, might feel a little funny or uncomfortable if they’re new to you. But if you really focus in on what will make the audience feel more comfortable, then you find you might be able to do these. You might have more incentive to do these, I should say.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Well, now let’s hear about some of your favorite things. Can we hear a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Montana Von Fliss
I have one from the Dalai Lama here. And it says, “If a situation is such that you can do something about it, then there is no need to worry. If it’s not fixable, then there’s no help in worrying. In fact, there is no benefit in worrying whatsoever.” Thank you, Dalai Lama.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, and a favorite book?

Montana Von Fliss
A recent book that I absolutely loved. Let’s see, my certainly my favorite book from last year was James by Percival Everett. It is a reimagining of the story of Huckleberry Finn from James’ perspective. Brilliant.

But I also love, this one is a little bit more in line with what we’re talking about, my personal Bible is called Art & Fear, and that’s by David Bayles and Ted Orland. And it’s all about how to deal with perfectionism and not let that stop you and how to just practice even when you’re not feeling like it. It’s wonderful. Check it out.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that seems to really resonate with people, you hear them quote it back to you often?

Montana Von Fliss
Oh, yeah, “Pause like a boss.” T-shirts have been made.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Beautiful.

Montana Von Fliss
People love that one. But also I get, “Confident Captain” quite a bit, “Montana, I’m going to be the Confident Captain.” And I’m like, “Yes, do it.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Montana Von Fliss
They can come to my website, MontanaVonFliss.com, sign up for the newsletter, and get just monthly tips and offers for free coaching from me. Also, all the socials if you like to consume great tidbits that way. And I have just started a YouTube channel. So if you like watching helpful videos that are also fun and entertaining, come find me there.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Montana, this has been fun. Thank you.

Montana Von Fliss
Thank you so much, Pete. This is really great.