Delegation Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Jess, welcome!

Jess Lindgren
Pete, thank you so much for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to get into your wisdom. We are talking about assistance, assisting. Whether you are the assistant or the assisted, I think we’ll have a lot of valuable wisdom to unfold here. And I want to, first, hear, in the assisting game, what is something that has been a surprising learning you’ve picked up that is just transformational, that makes for assistance working great versus not so great?

Jess Lindgren
I think the biggest thing is that people don’t think about this. People don’t think about this more now than they did. I have been an administrative professional, an executive assistant, for over 20 years now, and, things have definitely changed in that time. And people used to be way more focused. And this is general, because people still are focused a lot on hard skills over soft skills.

But people used to get really hung up on, “Oh, well, if you can’t type 90 words per minute,” “If you can’t pass this super nuanced clunky test on Outlook from 1998,” and a lot of those tests are very, like, you can’t do anything with shortcuts. You have to know exactly where to find stuff or you get knocked down on it. Nobody used to care if you were a good fit with your executive.

Like, people would look for executive assistants who were exactly like them, which is kind of the opposite of what you want. Like, you really want somebody that, if this is you, you want an executive assistant who’s going to come in and fill all those gaps for you, right? So, people really never used to focus on soft skills, emotional intelligence, that kind of thing.

And it’s always been something that’s bothered me in my earlier roles that we weren’t a good fit. We didn’t mesh well together. We were a little too similar and kind of butt heads quite a bit. So, that’s really something that I felt from an early time in my career, and have been very fortunate for the last 12 years to be working with somebody who appreciates a good working relationship in terms of emotional intelligence, in terms of soft skills, in terms of fitting better together.

And I do feel like industries as a whole, especially in the entrepreneurial sphere where we find ourselves, people are finding that that’s a much more valuable thing when they look for someone to hire to be their righthand gal or righthand guy.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that makes total sense to me. And to that point about opposites, or filling in gaps, I think that’s fantastic because we humans have this natural affinity for folks who are similar to us and see the world in similar ways to us, and it feels so good. For example, I’m big on ideas, creativity, ideation. That’s really fun for me. And so, if I talk to someone else who’s the same way, it’s very exciting.

Jess Lindgren
Oh, for sure.

Pete Mockaitis
And we’re just like firing out ideas all over the place. And yet, if we wanted to accomplish something, we’re not a great duo.

Jess Lindgren
You need somebody behind the scenes, like kind of pulling you back down to the earth. Like, you’re up there, you’re just floating away with all of these ideas and stuff. And that’s not to say that I don’t have creativity and ideas of my own. They’re just different. So that’s something that’s really, really nice, is to have those, you know, respect for what the person does that I work with for sure.

So, yeah, that creative conversation, like it’s very fun and very important, but it is also good to have somebody, you know, like I said, like you said, filling in those gaps, pulling you back down to the earth and being able to get you on task, like, “Okay, it’s great that we’ve got these ideas, but has anybody written anything down? Have we put anything into the project pipeline? Are we making progress forward?”

And just someone to kind of, “Okay, there’s 20 minutes left of this hour meeting. We need to actually make some progress here.” So, it’s really great to have that give and take, and have somebody who really just kind of fills in your other half. You need that right brain to the left brain, the type A to the type B.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, could you, perhaps, give us a story, illustration, demonstration, example to make it really clear for what does outstanding assistance look like versus what okay assistance looks like?

Jess Lindgren
Okay. Yeah, something that really comes to mind for me is that there are a handful of careers in this world that people think just anyone can plop in and do it. People think that they can do real estate. People think that they can do retail. People think that they can do administrative work. And that’s just not true.

Like, I personally, I cannot go. I worked one. I didn’t even complete the four-hour shift at Victoria’s Secret in college because it didn’t work for me. Like, everything that they were training me to do, I was like, “Nope, this is not for me.” Real estate, you have to have, like, the back of your hand, you have to know, you have to have relationships all over town. I couldn’t do that. I don’t have that breadth and depth of knowledge and relationship the way that really successful real estate agents do.

When it comes to administrative work, it’s a lot of creative thinking. It’s a lot of connecting the dots. It’s a lot of thinking ahead. It’s just skills that not everyone has. So, the okay assistance is the person who says, “Oh, yeah. Well, you know, I’ve been working in sales for like 20 years, and I think I want to pivot and just do administrative work. Like, anybody can do that, right?” Like, people who are just sitting there, trying to bridge a gap.

And, like, I’ve been there. I’ve tried to, I’ve had times in my life where I need to bridge a gap from job to job where you just take whatever is available. But people think that it’s just a job that anybody can do, and that’s just not true. I think you do have to have interest in it. I think that you have to have really sharp critical thinking skills. And I think that you have to really be a helper. Like, you really have to be someone who wants to help, not just someone who wants to come in, cash a paycheck, kind of half-ass it?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, understood.

Jess Lindgren
Yeah, like you really have to have some grit behind you. You have to really be into it, especially to be a career administrative professional.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. So, let’s hear the rundown there. Grit, creativity, interest. What are the other critical components, both in terms of if you’re thinking about a career in assisting, or if you’re thinking, “I need to hire somebody,” what are the top things to be looking out for?

Jess Lindgren
Like I touched on earlier, you’re looking for emotional intelligence, really, because a lot of it is, especially in an executive and/or personal assistant with your executive relationship, there’s a lot of access. You’re in a lot of rooms where a lot of other people aren’t, you know? My last in-office job, I would sit in on weekly board meetings.

I would sit in on meetings with the executives’ direct reports, like they’re director-level people, they’re manager-level people. And you have a lot of access to a lot of information. So, like, you’re looking for confidentiality, discretion. You’re looking for people who just care. You’re looking for people who care. That’s really important.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I’ve heard that’s probably the top theme when people ask me, “So, Pete, how do I be awesome at my job, Pete?”

Jess Lindgren
You care.

Pete Mockaitis
“You’ve done a thousand interviews.” Like, that’s kind of the thing is to care, fundamentally, about the work, about your customers, clients, your colleagues, the product or service you’re delivering. Like, to the extent to which you give a hoot, to the extent to which you get cool creative ideas, to the extent to which you go the extra mile, you try something different, you’re proactive, you’re into it, you’re engaged, versus kind of just chugging along isn’t great for anybody.

Jess Lindgren
Right. And there’s finitely, I’ve had days like that. I’ve had weeks like that. I’ve had months like that, where you are just kind of not engaged or you’re feeling burnt out or whatever. But, like, in the long run, you really do need that interest, that drive, that passion.

And when you are in an entrepreneurial sphere, you need to surround yourself with people who, I mean, A, you need to know what your mission is. Like, you need to know who it is that you’re serving. You need to know why you’re serving them. And you need to be able to articulate that to people when you hire them to work with you, and have it be a very intriguing mission that it is that you’re trying to fulfill.

Pete Mockaitis
And when you say be a helper, tell us about that, because in some ways, every job is being a helper, but I think you mean something specific.

Jess Lindgren
Yeah, I mean, even using a salesperson as an example. They’re trying to sell software to a company, or whatever the product might be. So, we’ll just say that this is a software company. They’re trying to help a company make a decision between five different software that are out there that all kind of do the same thing.

But that is still, at the end of the day, kind of a self-serving help. They’re trying to make a commission. They’re trying to make a sale. They’re trying to be number one on the leaderboard. They’re trying to get a bonus at the end of the year, whatever it is. But when it comes to being an executive assistant, being a helper is just so important because, a lot of times, you are the person who is picking up a lot of pieces.

You’re filling in a lot of cracks, and you also have very high standards when it comes to your work. You care about yourself doing a great job. You care about the company succeeding. You care about the executive that you’re supporting being successful. And, yeah, just every successful executive or administrative assistant that I’ve ever met just, like, really cares a lot.

You care about the office looking nice. You care about putting a good presentation, a representation of your company. You care about putting yourself out into the world. You care about, honestly, really great administrative professionals care about doing impactful work. They really do.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I hear you. And the salesperson, not that those motivations are evil, and, in fact, they’re sometimes extremely helpful. It’s like, “Ooh, this guy is on fire to make it rain. And thank goodness they do.”

Jess Lindgren
Yes. That’s great. Good for them.

Pete Mockaitis
Everyone is able to have paychecks from that revenue generated.

Jess Lindgren
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
And that variety of motivation and hustle works there, but it’s a very different flavor of motivation and drive than that which is a great fuel for a successful assistant.

Jess Lindgren
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, I’m grooving with it. So, then I’m curious, if one is doing a recruiting process, maybe engaging in some interviews to assess some potential candidates, what are some top approaches for interviews or selection or recruiting that could help us find, indeed, these helpers who really care?

Jess Lindgren
Yes. Okay. So, I have really strong opinions about this, and I’m really glad that you asked. Right now, for anyone who’s out there paying attention, hiring processes are completely out of control. The number of people that I have spoken with who just, “I went through three, four, five, six interviews,” you know, they’re like, “Okay, you’re our top two candidate.”

And then they get ghosted, or then they get like, you know, “Oh, well, we almost picked you,” or, like, someone will come back, you know, three months later, “Well, we picked the other person and they didn’t work out. Are you still interested?” You need to slim down your hiring process. This is not respectful of the candidate’s time. This is not respectful of your time.

What are you doing if you are putting someone else through six rounds of interviews? Like, what is everyone else on your team doing? Your salesperson is not out in the field making sales because they’re sitting there interviewing a candidate. They’re part of the fifth round of the interview and you’ve got 30 candidates, and you’re going to make that salesperson.

Like, the number of people that I’ve spoken with, who are executive assistants, who are looking for work, and they’re just like, “Yeah, I had to meet with the recruiter first, and then I met with the outgoing assistant, and then I met with the sales team, then I met with the marketing team. Like, these are people I’m not even going to work with. Like, why are they putting the whole company through this?”

And if you’re doing this with dozens of candidates every time, that is such a poor use of everyone’s time. And every person right now, they have to take work off. They have to stay late at work because they took a long lunch break to come to your sixth interview, the seventh or eighth or ninth or 10th interview. Like, you need to slim it down. Honestly, every time that I’ve hired someone, I can tell from the time I shake their hand if I like them and feel like it would be a good working relationship or not.

Like, slim it down, make it shorter. You don’t have to purely go on vibes, but, like, hire, what is it that I like to say? Hire slowly, fire quickly.

Pete Mockaitis
It makes sense to me in terms of like, let’s be very thoughtful about who we take on. And if it’s not working out, don’t drag it out for three years.

Jess Lindgren
Exactly. Don’t drag it out. Don’t drag it out for three years. But also, like on the flip side of that so like, what I mean by hire slowly is, like, get somebody in the door, but there is going to be like a ramp-up process, especially when you’re dealing with executive assistants. Like I touched on earlier, you have a lot of access as an executive assistant.

In terms of the hire slowly, fire quickly, I like to say to people, “Give your new assistant the garage code. Don’t necessarily give them the keys to the whole castle.” Like, you can give them some information. You can make the training process, make the onboarding process kind of slow, methodical, thought out.

But make the hiring process itself, like have a clear job description, but know that there’s a lot of room for nuance, that things are always going to shift, especially with an executive administrative or personal assistant. There’s always going to be things that you didn’t think of, that you didn’t know you needed help with, that you didn’t know they could do, that you could hand off to them.

Like, just know that it’s a living document, that it’s something that you’re going to need to update as time goes on. But really, strip that hiring process down. It’s not a good use of anybody’s time. Make a decision, roll with it. But that’s what probationary periods are for. That’s what that onboarding time is for, is to get to know them, see if it’s a good fit.

I’ve certainly had people who came very highly recommended, who interviewed very well, and then performed very poorly. And that’s where the hire slowly, fire quickly comes in. Like, I hadn’t bought them a new computer. I hadn’t bought them a ton of software. I hadn’t given them access to everything, but, like, I did make a decision, hire them, bring them on. And then I’m just like, “Well, this isn’t working out. Sorry.”

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Okay. So, you’re saying, let’s not do nine interviews, but rather, let’s give someone a shot, do the probationary period, and then that goes well, we really say, “Okay, here’s more access, here’s more things.”

Jess Lindgren
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
What are some key things that might show up as indicators that, “Ooh, this person seems special out of the pack, and, thus, it likely warrants to advance to the probationary period”?

Jess Lindgren
Yes. I mean, I think a lot of it is just looking for that caring, looking for them filling in gaps, looking for them noticing things when they say, “Hey, Pete, we’ve been working together for a couple of weeks here. I’ve noticed that you have X, Y, Z thing. Have you ever thought about doing it this other way?”

So, looking for people who really care about not necessarily that everything needs to get totally optimized and automated, but, like, sometimes things are too close. Like, you’re too close to things to even notice that there’s an issue, and you just do things that way because that’s how they’ve always been done.

And then when someone brings their specific experience, their specific expertise to the table, listen when they have ideas, implement what makes sense, but really look for them caring. They want you to have more time.

If you’re the salesperson of the company, they want you to have two extra hours in your day to be focusing on your job because you’re doing something inefficiently, or maybe doing something that’s not impactful, something that doesn’t even really need to be done anymore, something that’s outdated. Look for them making suggestions that make everyone do a better job. Like, that’s really important.

Pete Mockaitis
And so then, back into the interview, of which there might just be one or two and not nine, there might be some questions along those lines, like, “Tell me about a time that you noticed an opportunity for improvement, and what you noticed, and how you communicated it, and what happened.” And so, it was like, “Oh, shucks, that’s never happened before.” It’s like, “Oh, well, maybe we should go with someone else.”

Jess Lindgren
Maybe it’s a different, yes, maybe you go with a different candidate if that’s never happened. Process evaluation and improvement is, honestly, my favorite thing to do. I’m constantly just like, “Okay, we did it this way. It turned out okay. Is there anything we could have done better?”

Pete Mockaitis
I like that. And then, so I think, as we talked about recruiting, hiring, we were thinking about it perhaps from a vantage point of a dedicated, full-time, or many hours of time person. I guess in the universe of acquiring assistance, I suppose there’s a whole spectrum from a full-time, 40 hours plus a week person, like on site, to remote, to asking a bot to do a thing, or asking a service. How would you lay out the spectrum or continuum of assistance? And what answer is probably right for what needs?

Jess Lindgren
Yeah, that is a wide spectrum. So, there are lots and lots of options out there. I will say that a bot, or your average ChatGPT or AI, I am not a fan. I really think work like this is nuanced. Like, people in the executive assistant sphere are, “Oh, my God, AI is going to take our job.” No, it’s not. It’s fine. Like, there’s way too much nuance in a lot of work.

And if the things that you need help with are things that can be automated by a bot, or an AI, you don’t need an assistant. But I do think that most organizations and most individuals, especially individuals running companies, really could benefit from having one, whether it’s five hours a week to 40 plus. When you get into that 40 plus timeframe, hire a second person. It is absolutely unfair to have, like, I’ve worked 60-hour weeks. It’s not fun or cute for anybody.

Your productivity, your effectiveness, your efficiency, totally starts to drain once you’re past like 35 to 40 hours a week. It just, it’s not sustainable, you know? But, yeah, there’s definitely opportunities. There’s virtual assistants based out of the Philippines. Like, that’s a very strong industry at this point. It was definitely something, when I started my company back in 2014, it was, “How do I differentiate myself?”

Like, VAs out of the Philippines were newer. But like, “How do I differentiate myself as the in-person personal and executive assistant here in the United States who is not charging $5 an hour? Like, how do I?” Because it is different. It’s a very different service. It’s a very different product that I have to offer.

And, yeah, you still can, like it’s a much more developed and stronger industry. People based in other countries outside of the US have seized the opportunity. I don’t want to say taken advantage of the opportunity because that’s not the right wording, but like seized the opportunity. There’s a demand, and people are meeting it. And I’ve heard nothing but wonderful experiences that people have had with virtual assistants based out of other countries.

And you can get five hours a week. You can get 20 hours because you had a busy month or maybe you had a launch coming up. You can hire someone for 40 plus, like that’s, honestly, how I started working with my current executive, is he hired me for a one-off project. And after that one-off project was done, he was like, “Well, do you want to help me maintain it?” because I was hired to tame his inbox.

Like, we went from 9,000 unread emails to inbox zero. And he was just like, “Well, you cleaned it up. Like, I can’t maintain this. Like, can I hire you to stick around? Can you do 10 hours a week for me ongoing?” And I was like, “Absolutely.” And then 10 turned to 15, 15 turned to 20, 20 turned to 60. I hired that second person, and then you adjust from there.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s beautiful. And kudos to jobs well done. I mean, that’s often the reward for great work, is more work.

Jess Lindgren
It is more work. But, you know, when it’s work that you love, it is a reward.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So then, we talked about there’s full-time, there’s half-time, there’s other countries like the Philippines, there’s the bots can do what the bots can do, but they are limited, all right.

Jess Lindgren
Very limited.

Pete Mockaitis
And so then, I’ve heard there are a number of services. I’ve tried Fancy Hands, and it’s quite limited.

Jess Lindgren
Okay, that’s a new one to me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, the nature of the tasks were limited, in that they’re like 15-minute requests. So often, like it’s really crap shoot. It’s kind of like an Uber situation. It was like, you’ll get who you get and, hopefully, they’re with it. But it’s hard to say, “Oh, you’re great. Let’s keep doing the thing.” It’s like, “Well, no, you might get me next time. You might not.”

Jess Lindgren
Oh, you might never get them again. Interesting. So, it’s not something where you can say, “Okay, Jess did a great job. Five stars. I want her again.” Interesting. Fancy Hands. I’ll have to look into that.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, so it’s very limited, such that I’ve actually had a hard time using my requests, and I’ll probably be canceling them shortly. So, are there any other services or resources or directories or agencies or spots folks can go, and say, “Oh, they usually have some great folks”?

Jess Lindgren
You know, there are agencies out there, the ones that I have personal experience with, and the ones that I’m familiar with are, unfortunately, out of business.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, bummer.

Jess Lindgren
Yeah, so I don’t have specific agencies, necessarily, to recommend at this point, but I can say that there are more people who would be great at being an assistant in your network than you probably could ever imagine.

Like, the number of people who have a kid in college, who has 10 hours a week to give you, or the stay-at-home mom who’s been out of the workforce for a number of years, and, thankfully, kind of like the emotional intelligence piece, like people place more importance on the emotional intelligence piece. People are less, like there used to be a big stigma if you had a huge gap on your resume like that.

But people are really coming around to, “Okay, a stay-at-home parent is, like, the perfect person to hire for a role like this because they are managing a household, they’re managing children’s schedules, they’re managing all, they’re feeding however many people, however many meals every single day, they’re staying on top of laundry.”

Like, being a stay-at-home parent is a whole huge job and a really untapped market. Like, you just never know who has, like a friend of mine, their youngest just went to kindergarten this year, so all three kids are, like, eighth grade, fourth grade, kindergarten. All of a sudden, the stay-at-home parent has two, three hours a day where they could pick up some work, if someone had it available for them.

So, really, I like to recommend that people just put out, especially when you’re in a position where you have a podcast, you have a newsletter, you have social media, “Hey, friends, hi, I’m Taylor Swift, and I’m asking the Swifties. I’m looking for, hey, Swifties, I’m looking for an assistant for 10 hours a week. Who can help?” Taylor Swift is going to get a slightly different response than you or I would, you know?

Pete Mockaitis
“Ahh!!”

Jess Lindgren
And, Taylor, if you’re hiring, hello. But just, like, ask, and you just never know. Like, that’s how I ended up in the role that I have, is I wrote an email, I quit my job, I threw a party and just told everybody I knew about it and I was like, “Hey, you should come to this party, and here’s what I’m doing. I’m, basically, what people now might call a fractional executive assistant.”

So, I was like, “Fractional executive assistant work. And I guarantee, if I can’t do what you need, I know somebody who does.” And 15 minutes after I sent that email, someone reached out to me, and said, “We have a job for you.” And 12 years later, I’m still doing that job.

Like, the power of networking is so real and you will see people all the time say, “It’s not what you know, it’s who you know.” That’s unfortunate because not everybody knows everybody. But when you do know some people, it can be very nice and very cool.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I’m thinking about my buddy, Scott, mentioned, I think, one of his kids’ friend’s moms, they just had a number of very pleasant exchanges with her, and she indicated that she was looking for some stuff to do, I think, with kids in school situation. And they said, “Well, hey, maybe you could help us with this and this and this.”

And now, there’s like just a growing list of, she does all these things that make their life work in terms of, “Well, hey, could you help coordinate some things with our Airbnb property? And could you coordinate these Amazon returns?” And so, there’s like a dozen bullet points or more by now. And so, it just seems like, “Are you a billionaire, Scott?”

He’s like, “No, no, he’s not. But he’s found someone delightful who does have that helper’s heart, who just enjoys doing this, and they appreciate just the heck out of her,” because, like, “Oh, my gosh, our lives are so much less stressful and more wonderful because you’re in it. Thank you.” And she’s happy to help, and, it’s win, win, win, win.

Jess Lindgren
Yes, that’s the phrase I tell to everybody. Like, anybody reaches out, and I’m like, “Happy to help. I’m going to write a book someday. Put a pin in that.” But truly, like, everybody brings different skills and different tools to the table. Money is a tool. Stop hoarding it. Start using it to make your life better.

And the stay-at-home parent who was looking for a few things to do, as their responsibilities at home start to change, as the kids get older and maybe graduate, go off to college, all of a sudden that person has more time, effort, and energy to put into their work. You can take more things off of the person that you’re working with. You can take more things off their plate. And it’s a very reciprocal symbiotic relationship. And, yeah, it can be really great for everybody.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, let’s talk about the assistance and the assisted relationship, and that doesn’t necessarily need to be an executive, per se. I think there was even a piece recently in the Wall Street Journal or New York Times about how, “Hey, normal professionals are hiring assistants now, and it’s just so great.” So that’s cool.

The term executive assistant is, I don’t even know, if it’s the one to use. You may or not be an executive and assistance is great for you, regardless. So, tell us, within the relationship, what are some top dos or don’ts? What are things that drive you and other assistants just nuts, like, “Don’t ever do this. This is so, I don’t know, demeaning or frustrating or annoying.”

Jess Lindgren
Ooh, those are good questions. So, really, I just touched on this. Money is a tool, don’t be stingy. Pay your assistant well, pay them better than you think. You’re going to get what you pay for. If your budget is $5 an hour, you’re going to get very different service than if your budget is $150 an hour. And, like, that’s what I charge and that’s what I get paid, and that’s what I do. I mean, depending on the project.

But, you know, like your budget is very different and you’re going to get people who can prioritize things differently for you. So, like, really, if you, as an executive, I mean, even if you’re not like an executive-executive. You are the executive of your home. You can call them personal assistant, if executive assistant feels wrong. You can just say assistant. Like, we don’t really get super hung up on titles, but, like, pay them well.

If you’re some Fortune 500 executive-level, director-level, manager-level person who’s pulling in $500,000 a year, you have a budget to pay for someone good, and you’re going to get what you want the better that you pay. So don’t be stingy. You also need to not be a micromanager. You need to understand that people who are assistants are professionals. We’re good at what we do, especially when you’re talking with somebody like me who has been doing this for 20 years.

I am fantastic at what I do. You can give me very vague instructions. You can throw me into the deep end. I’m going to swim. It’s fine. You don’t need to hire me slowly. You can just bring me on and say, “Okay, here’s this whole backlog of tasks. Start wading through things.” Like, I love fixing problems. I love untangling messes. I love doing those things that feel so impossible to you, that feel your to-do list is just, it’s a list of things for me to just check boxes off of.

It doesn’t have the same emotional weight or stress associated with it for me. So don’t be stingy. Don’t be a micromanager. Like, tell me what you need done and then trust that it’ll get done. If it doesn’t get done, you’re going to know about it and then you can step in and micromanage, or whatever. But, like, back off.

Like, tell us what you need us to do and then let us do it. Give us some breathing room because we’re professionals and we’re good at it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I guess I’m thinking about the universe of expectations. And, for example, and I don’t know if this is a dated reference. But, I think, I’ve heard instances of, “Oh, if someone is getting coffee and getting dry cleaning, like that’s demeaning and beneath them.”

But, in other ways, another way of viewing it, it’s like, “Oh, that’s exactly what is needed and is helpful for that person at that time.” And so, I guess I’m guessing, you tell me, that whether that is or is not appropriate or, you know, “Pick my kids up from daycare,” or school, or karate lessons, really just depends on communicating those expectations upfront, and seeing if that’s a fit.

Like, you know, “Actually, driving kids around is something I can’t stand doing for whatever reason. They’re noisy and they are sticky.” Or, like, “Oh, how delightful. I get to spend some time with these precious cherubs.” So, I’m guessing that’s a do is to be clear about expectations and get aligned, and you can be able to share either way, like, “Actually, that’s kind of outside of our scope and not really in my zone of skills,” and just doing that dance.

Jess Lindgren
Yeah. So, that really is communicating what the job description is, because when you say executive assistant, that has the connotation of being, at least in the United States, you know, other countries like the UK, if you have seen any references to this at all, whether in the business world or the entertainment sphere, you’ll see people talking about their PA, their personal assistant.

So, in other countries, the title does mean something different. But here in the United States, executive assistant has the connotation of being a person who helps you with your professional life. Whereas, a personal assistant is the person who helps you with your personal life, or your assistant, again, whatever title it is that you’re going to give it.

I talk a lot about your time split, like how your job is split between professional and personal responsibilities. In my present role, it’s like a 95-5 professional to personal split. So, like 95% of the time, I’m doing professional stuff, and there’s a pretty, not a hard line, but like I don’t do any of the personal stuff, and that’s fine.

And I’ve also had roles where it’s like 95-5 the other direction. I’m just doing personal stuff. I’m helping you with, like one of my favorite things I ever did. I got hired to help someone hire and manage a plumber. They had a leak under their sink. So, like, I had to vet the different people who were available. Thankfully, I had a plumber that I loved.

So, I just hired them, came over, had to buy them, you know, they’re like, “I need a new vacuum. I need a new cat tree. I need a new…” whatever. So, like, got to knock everything out, like had everything delivered to the house the day that I was coming to manage the plumber. Got to just sit at the house and manage this service person, while they were there. And then I got to take their Instagram celebrity cat to the vet.

And so, you know, like sometimes it can be, I think that stuff is really fun and really cool. There are people who do not want the responsibility of being in charge of someone’s pet, being in charge of someone’s children. So, like, just making sure that the job description is clear from the get-go of what it is that you, the person needs help with, and what you are expecting the assistant to do, because you can also hire five-hour a week professional support and 10-hour a week personal support.

I like what you said, though, about things that are considered dehumanizing. I don’t find it dehumanizing when somebody, when my executive, like in my current role, when we work together in person, a lot of it is making sure that he is fed and hydrated and caffeinated. And that’s not offensive to me. I love doing that stuff. By feeding him and giving him coffee, he’s able to do his job. Like, that is not offensive.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s, “How Pat going to be ‘super stoked’ if one of these fundamental needs are missing?”

Jess Lindgren
Right? Like, this is just basic needs. Like, his shelter is taken care of because I got him a hotel room. His food needs are taken care of because I, literally, scheduled into his day, “Okay, here’s where you have a break. Here’s where you’re going to eat a Caesar chicken salad.” And I have protein bars in my bag. Like, that’s not offensive to me.

But some people, that would be very offensive. What is very offensive across the board is people not having their tempers in check, “I’m not your mother. I’m not your wife. I’m not your teacher. I’m not your daycare provider. Like, grow up.” That is absolutely unacceptable. I don’t care what it is that’s frustrating you. You need to have your temper in check.

And if that’s not something, that not a skill that you currently have, you need to work on that. And you need to hire somebody else who is fine getting yelled at. Like, treat people with basic respect. I have been yelled at. I have had things thrown at me.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, jeez.

Jess Lindgren
Like, seriously, I have had people, you know, throw a sheaf of papers, like, right into my face. And I’m like, “That is unacceptable.” So, like, have your temper in check, have your behavior in check. This is either a professional office or it might be inside of your personal home. But when you are bringing someone in as a hired professional, whatever that profession is, get it together.

That’s the dehumanizing stuff. That’s the unacceptable stuff. The number of times I’ve heard from assistants that, “I got yelled at yesterday, and it was worse than last week.” And I’m just like, “This is escalation. This is abusive. This is not okay. And, like, don’t tolerate that in the workplace.” But, like, also, if you’re the person who’s hiring the assistant, don’t act like that.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, absolutely.

Jess Lindgren
Yeah, that’s the unacceptable stuff. Like, anything else, like job duty-wise can definitely be negotiated. And if you don’t, as the assistant, want to be the person who gets the coffee or the dry cleaning, it’s 2025. Like, Uber Eats is a thing. There’s plenty of services that will deliver your dry cleaning.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right, “I will coordinate the delivery services associated with these tasks and forward you the bill.”

Jess Lindgren
Yes, you can be the person who does the project management of it, right? But you don’t have to be the person physically going to the coffee shop. You don’t have to be the person carrying the dry cleaning down the street. Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And when you brought up those examples of the plumber and the cat, and you mentioned that, “It’s your to-do list. I don’t have any emotional pulls associated with it,” I think that’s a really great concept to highlight here, is that there are many things that I think we’re capable of doing, but we have some sort of emotional resistance.

And so, like, I’m thinking about, “Oh, I should probably upgrade my video backdrop, but that feels like such a project. And I’m going to have to talk to a dozen different salespeople who are going to ask about my needs and my desires and my measurements.” And because I just have emotional resistance, like I’ve been dragging my feet, I haven’t really done it.

Jess Lindgren
Yeah, for sure.

Pete Mockaitis
And yet, if someone else who’s just like, “Okay, I feel totally neutral about that. I would be happy to pull together all of those options and go through that legwork of talking to those people and relaying those measurements and your preferences a dozen times so as to find a winning option for you.”

Jess Lindgren
Yeah. And the other thing that a great assistant will do is say, “You know what, Pete, you don’t have to take a dozen meetings for that. You need to take three to five meetings. You need to pick the person who…you know, I’m already lowering your ceiling of 12. I’ve lowered your ceiling to five. I’m not going to talk to more than five people.”

And if I already have a service provider or, “Oh, hey, I had a video backdrop created. Just last year I have a great service in mind.” Now you’re talking to zero people. You’re just giving me a credit card so I can order it for you.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Beautiful. Well, tell me, Jess, are there any other key things to keep in mind before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Jess Lindgren
Key things to keep in mind is just, I really love to recommend to people that, when they’re getting ready to hire an assistant, it means that they have been ready for six months to a year. So, like, it’s time if you’re really thinking about it, that means that you have been ready for a while. I want you to talk with the people that you work with.

So, if you are the manager of a department, talk to all the people that you interact with for a week, just say, “Hey, if I was going to hire an assistant, what do you think I need help with? What do you think I could offload from my plate?” And you just never know what things that you, I don’t want to say complain about, but like what things do you say like, “Ugh, it’s time to do the TPS reports.”

Like, maybe you need somebody that you can hire that can help you do the TPS reports. And, again, you’re too close to it. You’re too in it. You are just in it. You’re bogged down by the emotional weight of everything that you have outstanding to do, and it’s hard to even know what you might need help with. So, ask the people around you that you work with.

Ask the people around you at home, because you definitely don’t know, what are you letting off steam about to your spouse, to your children, to your friends, to your family? What did they hear when they say, “How’s work going, Pete?” And all they hear about is the quarterly inventory night or whatever.

Like, your assistant could come in and totally revamp the process to the point where you get excited about doing quarterly inventory, because now that it’s been evaluated and optimized, it’s, all of a sudden, really exciting and everybody orders pizza and it only takes three hours when it used to take eight. And now it’s like a big company party because you hired this person to come in and help you.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I like that a lot. And I think that this notion of the emotional weight of things is powerful in terms of it’s not just a one to one, you know, hour-dollar exchange situation. Because if you have a lot of emotional angst associated with, “Oh, I’m dreading this, leading up to it. And then, afterwards, I’m so drained from having done it. And then I’m complaining about it.”

It’s like, you may have paid for one hour of services that goes away from your plate onto the assistant’s plate. And yet, that has freed up more than an hour of product goodness in your world.

Jess Lindgren
Yes. Yes, absolutely. And, like, the other thing I really like to tell people is make a list, no matter how big or how small, because you touched on this, too, that there’s a lot of people who feel like, “Oh, well, I should,” or, “I already know how to do this. Why can’t I fit this in?” Everybody needs rest and recovery time. And so, you are buying time, you’re buying services, you’re buying expertise from someone who can help you.

And again, it’s 2025, almost 2026, some crazy how. There is no shortage, depending on where you live, of things that you can hire out. There’s a really great site called Care.com. It definitely is geared more toward housekeepers, nannies, that kind of role. You don’t know what retired grandma, that lives right around the corner from you, wants 15 hours a week, of picking the kids up from their activities, folding your laundry, and making dinner for everybody.

You just don’t know until you pay Care.com for a subscription, you invest the money, because Care.com is going to give you, like they do the vetting, they do the, you know, they’re saying, “Okay, here’s the five candidates that we think, based on what you’re looking for help with, that you might like.” You, ultimately, have to interview them, make the decision.

But, like, Care.com, they’re the hub for you, where the people come that are looking for work. When you ask your network, when you say, “You know, these are the things that’s kind of a weird mishmash of personal and professional stuff that I need help with,” you don’t know who has five or 10 or 15 hours, and who has what expertise and interests to bring to the table for you. Ask.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. Thank you. Now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jess Lindgren
Yeah, absolutely. My favorite quote is from Leslie Knope, the character from Parks and Rec, “One person’s annoying is another person’s inspiring and heroic.”

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Jess Lindgren
A favorite study. So, I really love the Pareto principle, the 80-20 rule. Just 80% of your client, like, especially as an administrative professional, 80% of the emails I receive, one minute less don’t even need to be answered. Twenty percent of those emails are going to take up 80% of my time. It’s just all day, every day.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And a favorite book?

Jess Lindgren
I really read a lot of fiction. I am a huge The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy gal.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And a favorite habit?

Jess Lindgren
Favorite habit. I love to get enough sleep and drink enough water and get enough exercise.

Pete Mockaitis
Agree. And is there a key nugget you share that is frequently quoted back to you, a Jess original that people find so delightful?

Jess Lindgren
I would say the biggest thing that I put out into the world is the five W’s, the who, what, when, where, why of it all. Like, really, just any problem, any situation, can be solved or enjoyed or put together with the who, what, when, where, why of it all.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jess Lindgren
I would love it if you checked out my website JessLindgren.com, J-E-S-S L-I-N-D-G-R-E-N.com.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jess Lindgren
People looking to be awesome at their jobs, stay hungry and stay foolish.

Pete Mockaitis

Marc, welcome!

Marc Schoen

Yes, very fun to be here.

Pete Mockaitis

I’m so excited to dig into your wisdom. I have listened to your book, Your Survival Instinct Is Killing You: Retrain Your Brain to Conquer Fear and Build Resilience twice, partially because I think your voice is so soothing. I guess that’s the hypnotist in you. But I would love to kick us off by hearing what’s a particularly striking, surprising, counterintuitive discovery you’ve made about us humans and how we perform best in your many years of working in mind-body medicine?

Marc Schoen

The biggest discovery, I would say, is that I was trained to believe that performance really had to do with controlling pressure or discomfort. And what I found is that, in reality, that’s not really what it is. It’s that we all should be feeling some amount of discomfort. And it’s not the discomfort alone that impairs performance. It’s that it’s our reaction to discomfort. And I have a great two studies on that, if that’s okay to elaborate on.

One was a great study done right around the start of the Afghanistan War, where they took two groups of people, the general infantry and the Special Forces, and they subjected them to a very intense, grueling workout. And the hypothesis was, is that the general infantry would show much higher signs of stress in the body, while the Special Forces would show very little stress.

Well, what they found out is that the Special Forces actually had a higher stress response than the general infantry, but the difference was they were able to parlay that stress response into productive action and, therefore, bring down the stress response, while the general infantry continued to hover in that higher level.

And that really is something that I have seen in several studies that I’ve done, whereas we can train people to manage discomfort and pressure better. But it doesn’t mean they will report that they’re not stressed, but their physiological response shows that they are managing the stress far superior than those who do not receive that kind of training.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s beautiful. Well, I think we could all use a little bit more of that. Did you say there were two studies?

Marc Schoen

Yeah, that was my main study on it, and then the second study was the Afghanistan study. That was not mine. That was someone else’s study.

So, two studies. The Afghanistan study, and the second study was mine, my own. And that was one where I had people who, in their everyday life, come in, report just the stress levels they’re having at work, and every day took blood measures of them, then trained a group into managing the discomfort and the pressure better, and their blood measures, which were cytokine measures, called Interleukin-6 and tumor necrosis factor, those people that received that kind of training had a far reduced inflammatory response, but they still reported being stressed.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, we’re going to dig deep into what training consists of but, first, maybe let’s hear the big picture in terms of the big message behind your book Your Survival Instinct Is Killing You: Retrain Your Brain to Conquer Fear and Build Resilience. What’s the core thesis here?

Marc Schoen

The core point of it has to do with discomfort. And I think of it this way, is that here we are in this advanced technological society, and it’s done a great job of really limiting our discomfort in our lives. But the paradox of it all is that, even though we have less discomfort, theoretically, we’ve become far more sensitive to being uncomfortable. So, the premise of the book is, “Okay, how do we learn to manage discomfort without precipitating the fear response, like the fight or flight response?”

Pete Mockaitis

And that is a powerful message and question, and so rich and apt, I think, for our time. I’ve also enjoyed Michael Easter’s book, The Comfort Crisis, which explores some of these bits as well. You’ve got a fun word you use frequently in the book. Can you tell us the definition of agitants? What is that? And tell us a little bit of the story for how it is we’ve come to find ourselves here in this place with greater comforts and yet less resilience to discomforts?

Marc Schoen

Yes, I call it the comfort zone dilemma, is that we all strive to be in our comfort zone. And no doubt, it feels good to be in the comfort zone, to be a non-stressed organism, but the downside is, if we take refuge in this comfort zone, what we end up doing is that actually shrinking our comfort zone because we become more and more uncomfortable with the idea of getting out of it. It’s the effect is a lot today.

I see so much of this today, is that, as this shrunken comfort zone happens, we get many more mental symptoms, particularly phobias: fear of getting on the freeway, fear of flying, fear of closed places, or fear of heights. And so, we want to be challenging our comfort zone. If we just fall back into it, we are setting ourselves up for poor performance and many mental symptoms.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And so, what is the concept of agitants?

Marc Schoen

So, agitants comes from the word agitation. And I’m very interested in, as our body gets more and more agitated, or has agitants in it, is that we cause a certain sort of high bar, I think of it, and the more agitants we have that exceeds the high bar, the more we are likely to impair performance and have psychological, physical symptoms. But if we can keep our agitants below that high bar, we tend to perform well and have no symptoms. But the key point of this is not the absence of agitants, but rather the well-management of agitants.

Pete Mockaitis

And so, is agitants the same as stress and agitation? Or what is the distinction or the core of this concept?

Marc Schoen

Well, I think of it more as a warming up of the body, heating it up. So, like, we all are theoretically around 98.6 is our basal temperature, and we do okay if we get into the low 99s, we may feel a tiny bit off. But once we start overheating and getting above 100, then our performance is very much affected. So, I like agitants more as a continuum, rather than thinking of we’re stressed or not stressed.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay, certainly. And so then, and for a given stressor, we may very well experience a different internal agitants response, like whether something gets us really steamed and furious, or a little bit like, “Ah, it’s kind of annoying, but I’ll shrug it off.”

Marc Schoen

Yeah, I just find it better to refer to that because of that continuum, rather than that you either have it or don’t have it.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, can you walk us through the history, the chronology, the narrative of how we found ourselves in this place with lots of comfort, and yet a shrinking comfort zone? And you suggest it’s not just the smartphone but this journey starts much earlier.

Marc Schoen

I really think it starts as prehistoric humans, where humans learned to have an instinct to avoid being uncomfortable because the brain is pretty black and white about this. So, if we start feeling discomfort, then the brain starts experiencing a threat. So, in the early days, obviously, that threat was not enough food, or cold, or a mountain lion, or someone throwing a spear at us.

So, we learn real quickly to become sensitive to any impending discomfort and threat. And those humans that were capable of being able to respond effectively to that, live a whole bunch longer than those who are more tight-beat folks that were, “Oh, I’ll be fine,” and they just didn’t live long enough to propagate. And so, we’re a product of worriers and people that are constantly concerned that something bad will happen.

So, it’s natural that we would evolve more and more as a society to want to limit our discomfort because it just feels so much better. But that’s the ultimate trap, is that by continuing to pursue this path of greater comfort, which has really come significantly with technological advance, we’re losing that discomfort muscle so it atrophies, so we’re less capable of responding to the world.

And here’s, like, I think a wonderful example of this. We are in a world with tremendous amounts of psychological resources. And to help people do well and manage resilience and become hardy, but yet with all of that, and all of these technological advances, we have more mental illness than ever, and our troops are more likely to die from their own hands than they are from enemy fire. So, what’s happened is that we, as a society, have become less hardy, more fearful, and so that’s what’s happened to us.

Pete Mockaitis

Ooh, that’s tricky. And you say that in many ways that the march of technological progress has contributed to that, whether it’s microwaves and fast foods and convenient packaged foods, it’s like we don’t have to sit in even hunger or discomfort for long at all.

Marc Schoen

So true. And look how quickly we can create perfection by just tweaking things on the computer, making ourselves look better, sound better, or edit our responses. And not to mention, this was sort of what you alluded to is the issue of delayed gratification. We don’t have to wait long, do we, for gratification anymore? So, we don’t get uncomfortable in the same way we did in earlier times.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, bringing this to careers, in particular, could you tell us a story of how this scenario we find ourselves in, with a relatively tiny comfort zone, has been harmful to someone’s career, and what they did to turn it around and the cool results they saw on the other side of that training?

Marc Schoen

One great example was, some years ago I was sent a fellow that wanted to be drafted into the NBA. He was a senior year at the university, so he knew this is a make it or break it year.

And so, while he was playing during the year, he was never, by the way, historically a very good free throw maker. He’s always like around 60%, but now here he is in this last season, and many of the games being nationally televised, is that he’d get to the free throw line and freeze. He would push the ball rather than just be relaxed, and then his percentage went from 66% or 68% into the high 30s. So, he was having lots of pressure, and then of course freezing under the pressure.

So, I would go to Pauley Pavilion where he would play, and every time he got to the free throw line, the crowd would go, “Oh, no.” You just hear this large moan of 15,000 to 17,000 people. So, I had him come in, and I asked him questions, “What is your memory?” And this is so important for the bigger question that you’re asking, “What’s your memory of being under pressure?” And his memory was oral reports in school, and getting up to do an oral report and being nervous and shaking, and then the kids teasing him about his inability to talk.

So, now, years later, he goes to the free throw line, it’s like going up there for an oral report, and then when the whole crowd starts moaning, it pushes that old button and he freezes up. So, that’s a good example. So, what the solution was is that we couldn’t stop the pressure that he was feeling. Didn’t want to. What we wanted to do to make it so that the pressure, which is uncomfortable, no longer pushed the fear response.

Pete Mockaitis

And how does one make it such that that occurs?

Marc Schoen

It is possible to create a physical, emotional state in the brain that neutralizes the fear region of the brain, as many of you their listeners know is the amygdala part of the brain. So, what we do is put someone under pressure, when they’re uncomfortable, create this physical state in the brain. Hypnosis is the big way I do it, and it will block the fear response. So, now we’re having someone be uncomfortable, and learned that no fear is associated with it, and that’s how it stops.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay, cool.

Marc Schoen

Neuro-conditioning.

Pete Mockaitis

Neuro-conditioning. Hypnosis. Okay. And you said you had another story.

Marc Schoen

Another story is more directly related to business. I see a lot of folks that are young entrepreneurs, and have come up with a fabulous concept, made a lot of money, and venture capitalists come in to give them more funding for their company. And it was their idea, their intuitions, their hard work that created the success, but now you have the venture capital people, working with someone that’s a lot younger, and the entrepreneurs can get very intimidated by these people with their mathematical models, being older, putting pressure on them, second guessing their decisions.

And so, what happens is they start getting frozen up inside, starts second-guessing themselves, start losing confidence, start basically bowing to the pressure, which isn’t necessarily good because the venture capitalists aren’t the ones that created it, nor the ones that made the money. And so, we get this, again, this dilemma where we have pressure, uncomfortableness, pushing the fear response. And what is the fear response mostly is the area of rejection.

You think about it, when it comes to performance, if you look at “What is the issue?” It’s usually rejection, judgment, worry what other people might think, what they might say. When I asked my medical students, “What’s your biggest fear?” And these are super bright medical students at UCLA, “What’s your biggest fear?” Of saying something and embarrassing themselves.

And so, we get this with these young entrepreneurs and they buckle under that pressure. So, what I do is, again, create the pressure but make it so it does not push the fear response, so they can respond accordingly, express their opinion, stand up for what they believe.

Pete Mockaitis

And in your book, you mentioned that it’s very possible to feel two emotions at the same time. You’d say, “I feel stressed, worried, concerned, anxious, and also I’m safe.” Could you talk about that principle?

Marc Schoen

Yes. And that goes to that early concept of being able to create an emotional, physical state in the brain that blocks the fear, but yet, you can have them feel pressure. So, we have a neutral state or a safe state induced by this type of hypnosis, I like to call it hypno-meditation, and the real-world stress, and I also alluded to that study I gave you, is that, yeah, the people did report plenty of stress in their lives, but physically there was no trace of it. It’s an interesting dynamic. I call it duality, is my term for it.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. So, hypnosis is one way that we can get there. You also lay out 15 strategies to stay cool, calm, and collected. Could you share with us maybe your top three favorites for professionals that do a whole lot for folks, and yet are pretty easy, a big bang for the buck or ROI?

Marc Schoen

Yes, so the overarching goal is not to banish discomfort. The goal is to make it so discomfort does not experience as a threat and, therefore, push the fear response. Okay, so then that’s the goal of any exercise that we want to do. I have a lot of different ones that push the button, that make us uncomfortable, because it again pushes that button of rejection, or being judged, or being embarrassed and so on.

One thing that I’ve done to help train myself in this area was to ask people for favors, and that’s an uncomfortable thing. And the exercise I did was, and remember the goal wasn’t to get the favor granted, the goal was dealing with the uncomfortableness of asking for the favor. So, I would go around and ask people for $100. And, of course, virtually everyone would say no.

Pete Mockaitis

Virtually.

Marc Schoen

I actually had one person say yes.

Pete Mockaitis

Alright.

Marc Schoen

Of course I gave it back, but that’s really uncomfortable for me to ask that, and then justify it, or for people just to say, essentially, “Screw you,” or just ignore me, or walk away. That’s uncomfortable. But I wanted to give myself practice in that, and that’s a great tool.

Now, there’s different degrees of pushing this button. One is you could put yourself out there. Let’s say you’re uncomfortable about dancing in front of other people. You could go take dance lessons. Let’s say you’ve always wanted to sing, but you have a terrible voice. Well, you could take some voice lessons. Or, very simple, it’s so easy for us to just take the same way to drive to work or use our Google Maps. What if we were to try to navigate our way without the help of that? Again, the overarching goal is to feel uncomfortable and learn we can manage it and not get a fear reaction.

Another great way is to approach someone that you think is important or very attractive, and introduce yourself. All of these things really push that button. And so, the goal is to be uncomfortable, but still be able to do it.

Pete Mockaitis

And so, if we are in the midst of it, feeling super uncomfortable, and we’re not sure if we can do it, and we are maybe feeling the fear response getting pushed, what do we do? Do we do some breathing? Or what’s your pro tip to pulling it off?

Marc Schoen

Yeah, I have a breath technique. That’s what I call it. It’s on my website. It’s a free download, and it’s a way that you can really expediently knock down your heartbeat and blood pressure. It really just takes 45 seconds to create a result. So, you can use this as a preface to doing any of these exercises, and all we want to do, we just bring it down below that high bar that I talked about so we’re not so overheated, and then move forward with the task.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, Marc, that sounds like 45 seconds well spent. Could you give us a demo on this breath technique?

Marc Schoen

Yeah, it really is something I developed back in, like, 1983 in a biofeedback room at Cedars-Sinai when I wasn’t allowed to do hypnosis on the medical units so I had to find a way that would rapidly relax people. So, I hooked myself up with all these electrodes and then later ran other people through it, borrowed from here, borrowed from there, took from here to make something really quick.

And what I found is that an inhale through the nose, just a medium inhale, not having to be a big diaphragmatic breath, just medium. I’ll make a sound, but you wouldn’t make the sound. Kind of like this, about that amount. We pause for a second, and then have a pattern of four exhales. But the key part of it is to have no inhale between the exhales.

So, it looks and sounds like this, and the sound of the exhales is important. Here’s the inhale. Hold it for a second or so. Start of the exhales. And the last one, we just release the remaining air, and then we repeat that four times. And it’s remarkable, if you’re measuring someone’s blood pressure or heartbeat, how pronounced of an effect that can have.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. So then, these exhales, it’s like a shh sound, like we’re calming, like telling a child to “Hush up now. Shh.”

Marc Schoen

Exactly. Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis

And then there’s a pause between the shushes. And so, it’s about a medium level of inhale, not like a huge maximum.

Marc Schoen

Through the nose.

Pete Mockaitis

Through the nose. And then is the exhale there then, are we aiming to get mostly out, all of our breath out, or like completely evacuated, or just mostly evacuated, or does it really not matter?

Marc Schoen

Yeah, most of it, but we don’t want to deplete ourselves that we’re gasping for air. So, just a medium amount like that.

Pete Mockaitis

And then do we pause after the fourth exhale before the next inhale?

Marc Schoen

Yeah, a comfortable space between. And as you do this, cycles, you slow it down, so you’re pausing more between the exhales. Oh, and what I learned back in the ‘80s about this is that it’s not the inhale that relaxes us, it’s the power of the exhale.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s cool. That’s cool. All right. So, we’ve got that breathing. And tell me, when it comes to perhaps physical interventions, whether it’s cardiovascular exercises, or resistance strength exercises, or getting in cold water, or walking with a weighted backpack, are there any kind of physical fitness-y things that go a long way in improving our discomfort tolerance?

Marc Schoen

Well, it’s best for us to think about these kinds of techniques that I’m talking about, is that we have both discomfort, physical discomfort and emotional discomfort. And so, it is very important to work on our ability to tolerate both of them, and they both affect each other. So, obviously, if we’re physically less capable, then we’re going to be more emotionally uncomfortable, and vice versa.

So, the more emotionally uncomfortable we are, the less we tolerate physical discomfort. So, it makes sense to work on both. Now, here’s what I like to do, is to challenge myself physically. For example, when I used to run quite a bit, I would run, but meditate on the ability to stay calm and keep my heartbeat at a certain level. Or, when I take a sauna and have the temperature like 175, is to see how long I can keep my body cool from sweating. So, there’s that kind of interplay that we can do.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s great. Well, let’s talk about hypnosis for a moment before we wrap up. And so then, for those unfamiliar with hypnosis, could you maybe first share with us some of the best data or studies suggesting that hypnosis is a real thing that’s useful beyond our stage amusements?

Marc Schoen

Yes, it used to be that we thought hypnosis only changed people’s perceptions, and so it’s just sort of like a surface charge with a battery, that you can charge it a little, but it doesn’t seep into the true fabric of what it is. But as we’ve had more advances, we can truly measure the impact of what it does, and we see that it has a cellular impact and a biochemical impact. I even did one of those studies to show that we can use hypnosis to block the inflammatory response in the body, and that’s by measuring cells.

So, now hypnosis can be seen as having both a psychological and a physical effect. I like it because it’s like the difference between a Scud missile and a Patriot missile. It is precise, direct, and much quicker than going in more globally.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, for folks who are jazzed about that as a tool for being more awesome at their jobs, I mean, I guess we could schedule a session with a professional like yourself. Or, how can we get a taste of this benefits hypnosis might have to offer us?

Marc Schoen

I would like to offer your listeners a free download where it’s a hypnotic set of suggestions, all geared for job performance based on this whole concept of discomfort, threat, fear, and being able to manage discomfort without threat.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, thank you. That sounds beautiful. We appreciate that. We’ll make sure to link that in the show notes, etc. Okay, so we got that going for us. And then you mentioned the notion of the precision, like targeting anything. I’ve seen a whole boatload of different hypnosis pieces on YouTube for any number of things. What are your thoughts on those? My guess is that the quality and effectiveness vary. Is there any danger in just trying those out? Or, what are you thinking about these?

Marc Schoen

I certainly wouldn’t try someone’s work that isn’t credentialed and has significant training in it. And so, it should be a mental health professional that’s done it for a while because it’s very powerful and mishandled can create some bad results. So, be careful, selective, as to who you allow to do it. And again, most hypnosis can be seen as just trying to deal with changing people’s thoughts only, and just like cognitive behavioral therapy, it certainly can work.

But, if a lot of our behavior is influenced by fear, then it makes far more sense to deal with that part of the brain where it is centered in this limbic part of the brain. So, I like to use hypnosis to go directly at those limbic areas, such as the fear center, such as the pleasure center, the sleep center, and so on. And so, you can use hypnosis in a superficial way, or you can use it in a much more profound way, because to me, if we don’t deal directly with the fear response, no matter what we tell ourselves consciously, it’s just not going to hold.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And maybe, I’d love to get your…we’ll do your hot takes. I saw a YouTube video where they quickly said underrated, overrated for all sorts of, like, health and fitness interventions. So, let me get your hot takes here, the good doctor, Marc Schoen in the house. Hypnosis for, if I would like, I’m just going to put out some scenarios and say, could hypnosis be useful for this? Maybe say yes, no, or a little would be the three options if I may. We’ll say, “I crave cigarettes, and I’d like to crave them less.” Is hypnosis useful for that?

Marc Schoen

A little.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. “I get scared when I’m asking for referrals or feedback, and I’d like to feel less scared”?

Marc Schoen

Very positive. Good.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. “I’d like to sleep longer and better with less interruption.”

Marc Schoen

Good.

Pete Mockaitis

“I would like to stop eating as many cookies, candies, sweets, and diet more disciplined-ly.”

Marc Schoen

A little.

Pete Mockaitis

“I would like to be more assertive in telling my team my expectations for them and how they can improve.”

Marc Schoen

Good.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Anything else I should have mentioned, Marc?

Marc Schoen

Well, no, you did a great job. And you noticed where I said just a little tend to be those things which are more addictive in nature, that hypnosis is just a medium, it’s a single, it’s not a triple or a home run for addictions.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, Marc, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Marc Schoen

The thing I say is just a summary statement, is that in reality, what a lot of people say, “What doesn’t kill me, strengthens me.” It’s really more this, “It’s not the adversity that makes us stronger. It really is our effective management of adversity that makes us stronger and more resilient.” That is the key part of this.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, that’s good. Thank you. “I often find myself procrastinating and putting off the hard, uncomfortable things, and doing easier tasks like email.”

Marc Schoen

That’s a mixed one. That’s why I have to say a little, but possibly good. It depends what’s the source of the procrastination. A lot of people just come into the world wired as a procrastinator, and those folks, you can slightly modify it. There are groups of people that are procrastinators that’s totally out of fear.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay.

Marc Schoen

That can be modified that way.

Pete Mockaitis

And how about, “I find myself I just get so distracted. I sit down to do a thing and then I find myself around the news or social media or shopping minutes later.”

Marc Schoen

Not necessarily a good one either. Just a little bit of an effect.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Marc Schoen

One I always like was something that Lance Armstrong had said when he was the Olympic athlete. It’s something along the lines like, “Pain is temporary, but quitting is forever.” That was a good one.

And there’s an old time one, God knows if I’m saying it correctly, it was something along the lines, you know, that we really want to judge someone based on the stage or position in life, but rather judge someone on the obstacles they have overcome. I like that one. I don’t know who said that but…

Pete Mockaitis

And a favorite book?

Marc Schoen

I love this book called The Untethered Soul.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite habit?

Marc Schoen

I do self-hypnosis meditation once to two times a day. That is such an incredible way to keep our body in the zone. Because as we get older, it would seem like it shouldn’t be this, but as we get older, it takes more work to stay in that zone.

Pete Mockaitis

And I’m curious, within that self-hypnosis, are there a couple key messages or suggestions that you think really hit home and bring a lot of the result?

Marc Schoen

If I had to say a core feeling is a belief, but it’s a feeling, is that when I’ve looked over my life, I have not had an absence of bad or tough things happen, but I’ve been very fortunate, that ultimately, it all resolves favorably with a few exceptions here and there. So, what I get to is a place of trust and faith and confidence, that no matter how tough something is, I will ultimately have the resources to manage it effectively. So, I’m just going to trust and let this feeling of total openness, non-tightness, safety, lightness be the prevailing dominant feeling I’m going to feel in my body. That’s what it is.

Pete Mockaitis

And is there a key nugget you share with folks that really seems to connect and resonate with them, and they quote back to you often?

Marc Schoen

It really is this notion that we have talked about that I can be uncomfortable, I can feel pressure, and nothing bad will happen to me. There’s no danger. And that I can persevere and succeed and that, ultimately, most people will say, my ability to hang in that place of fire is where the greatest results happen.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Marc Schoen

I would have folks feel free to look at my website. It’s my name, Marc Schoen, M-A-R-C S-C-H-O-E-N.com. You can find out more about me. I will have the downloads that I’ve referenced already there under the product section. But it’ll give you an overview of my work.

Pete Mockaitis

And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Marc Schoen

I would really, really encourage people to challenge their discomfort zones, to push against that key thing I’ve said about rejection and judgment. And even though our tendency is to want to limit our losses, some people call that the negativity bias, often the probabilities of success are actually higher than the probabilities of failure. And so, so I would recommend really pushing that, and being uncomfortable, going in there and just challenging, “I can hang in here, persevere and succeed.”

Pete Mockaitis

Beautiful. Well, Marc, this is a great time. Thank you. And I wish you the very best.

Marc Schoen

Many thanks. Enjoyed being here.

Pete Mockaitis
Dave, welcome.

Dave Kerpen
Thank you so much for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to get into your wisdom about delegation. And I’d love it if you could kick us off with maybe one of your most surprising and fascinating discoveries about us humans and delegation.

Dave Kerpen
Well, the most surprising thing is that the secret to delegating is much less about how to do it and much more about getting over yourself up here, getting through your brain, and dealing with the fear and the distrust issues and the perfectionism issues that are likely holding you back.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, succinctly stated right off the get-go, Dave. Thank you. Appreciate it. All right. So, that’s the scoop. So, that’s funny, if people think I’m having trouble delegating, they may very well say, “I need a model. I need some steps. I need an acronym. I need a mnemonic.” And, Dave, you’re saying, “No, what you probably need first is to get over yourself because you’ve got some emotional stuff that’s hindering this whole process.”

Dave Kerpen
Yeah. And, look, my book has the steps and the acronyms and the models, and I love acronyms. I’m all for models, I’m all for systems and tools, but too many people do it to try a system or tool for anything, but certainly, in this case, for delegation, it doesn’t work, and then they say, “Forget it, this doesn’t work.” And the real answer is, “Let’s do the work on ourselves and deal with the issues, the limiting beliefs, the challenge, the fears that are holding us back.”

And then my model might work well but there’s a lot of other models right, or this software might work well but there’s 15 other software that might work well as well. And it’s less about choosing the software and more about getting the mindset right to be able to delegate.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear that. And so, so maybe if folks are so not over themselves, and they don’t even think it’s possible, Dave, can you paint a picture of hope, maybe share some data or a story?

Dave Kerpen
So, first, I’ll paint a picture of a sadder story and then I’ll tell my story, which, hopefully, is a little less sad. Scott came to me, names have all been changed to protect the guilty, but Scott was a long-time real estate entrepreneur, worked for himself, essentially, but built a nice little practice with having a couple people work for him over the years, made a lot, a lot of money, came to me years and years into his career, sort of mentoring me.

He said, “You know, I made a lot of money over the years. My son just turned 21, and I missed his growing up. I missed basketball games. I missed parent-teacher conferences. I missed an awful lot because I was so focused on building my business. And if I could go back, maybe I wouldn’t care so much about building my business because, yeah, it made me lots of money, but I will never get that time back with my son.” And that story struck me.

So, as I was doing the research for my book, I looked at deathbed research, and researched on what deathbed regrets people had. And perhaps this won’t surprise you at all, but, as you might guess, Pete, a very, very small percentage, under 1% of people regret not working enough hours. People almost always, over 50% of people, on the other hand, regret, when they’re asked for deathbed regrets, regret not having more time with friends and family, not having more time to pursue their passions, not having more time to pursue travel and other key hobbies.

We all get the same amount of time and we only get one shot at it in this lifetime. And the reason I wrote this book is that, sure delegation will make you a more productive employee, delegation will make you a more productive leader, delegation will make you a more successful entrepreneur depending on what it is that you do, but I think the stakes are much higher than that. I think delegation is the single biggest key to unlocking success and happiness in life.

And I will share that there’s many, many things that I’m not good at, but one thing that I’ve been fortunate, you know, the sort of happier story is that I pick up my son from the school bus every day, and shut off my phone, and for those three hours after school, I’m helping him with his homework, and we’re playing baseball, we’re having to catch, playing basketball. I’m getting that all-important family time, that all-important parenting time, that’s my priority.

If you’re listening, that might not be your priority, but then you might want to climb Mount Everest, or you might want to work out three hours a day, or you might want to find the love of your life. Delegation is the biggest tool that allows us to have the freedom to pursue our number one, two, and three priorities in life. And so, for me, that’s something I’m proud of, and I wrote this book to help share that with others.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Beautiful. So, delegation unlocks all kinds of good possibilities for us. The hangup is that we are stuck believing that, “I don’t trust them. They won’t do it as good as I can. Only I am capable of doing this,” any number of these beliefs, mindsets, etc.

So, Dave, help us out, if we are in that place, like, “Okay, Dave, that sounds really awesome. Maybe you’ve managed to find some great people, but I mean, I’ve got a team of knuckleheads or I’ve been burnt before in terms of trying to delegate, and it didn’t go so well. So, what do I do?”

Dave Kerpen
Well, I mentioned before, maybe you try a tool and it doesn’t work, and then you sort of give up. I think a lot of people delegate poorly and choose poorly the person to delegate to. And when we get into my system, an acronym, and I do believe in such things, like I said, the number one and the most important aspect in the beginning is who you choose. And they choose the wrong person, they choose the person that’s there, the most convenient, cheapest, lots of reasons, but they choose the wrong person. And then, of course, it’s going to fail if you choose the wrong person.

But you got to keep trying until you get it right because the solution can’t be that you do everything. You’ll burn out. You’ll be miserable. You won’t have all that time. So, let’s attack one of those myths that you shared, Pete, “You’re the best person for the job.” Let’s really think about this. If we think about this rationally for a minute, there’s 7 billion people. I said I’m good at delegating. I’m pretty good at marketing, there are so many things I’m not good at.

And for me to think that I am the best person for any given task, virtually anything, let’s say anything actually, because honestly, there’s lots and lots of people that are way better at any possible thing that I could do. It’s frankly narcissistic and somewhat ridiculous of me to really try to convince myself that I am the best person for the job. I am very, very rarely the best person for the job. I might be the only person that knows precisely what’s in my head for how to do something, but I might also be wrong about the best way to do something. In fact, I’m probably wrong about the best way to do something.

Chances are there’s people out there that could get to the finish line much, much better than I can. So, if that’s, in fact, true, then the next challenge that I have is, “Okay, how can I choose the right person and then explain what that finish line looks like in a really clear, concise way that allows that person to be mutually aligned with me on precisely what the outcome looks like?” And then the trust issue comes up, “How can I…?”

This is hard, I get how hard this is, you know, I’ve been there, I’ve managed a lot, I’ve coached a lot of people here that have a tough time trusting others, but there has to be some level of trust that somebody else is going to get, it’s going to make their way to the finish line, and they’re probably not going to do it the same way I would. In fact, it’s very rare that they would do it the same way I would, but they might do it differently, and they might do it better than I would. And if they can get to the finish line, if they can get even to 80% of the finish line the way I would have done it, but allow me the time to do other things and not worry about it, well, then I have won.

Pete Mockaitis
Inspiring, yes. I like the winning and that’s cool. Let’s stay with the myths for a little bit longer. I’m with you. Okay, fair enough, Dave, 7 billion people alive on this Earth. Maybe I am. Maybe I am one in a million. Well, there’s 7,000 people that are as good or better than I am at that thing. So, okay, fair enough.

But in terms of realistically speaking, can I find that person? Will they be available? Can I afford them? In terms of the practical realities, are we thinking that, in fact, it is still the case that I could find someone who will do a thing better than me, even if I’m awesome at that thing, given these real-world constraints?

Dave Kerpen
Well, let me answer that in two ways. First is maybe they won’t do it better than you, but this is where most of us, to one extent or another, are perfectionists, so we have an idea about what we want something to be, and perhaps better than us is not necessary, and perhaps the same as us is not necessary. That’s where I got to that 80-85%. If they can get to 80-85% of what we would want, but relieve us of all the stress and the work and the agita of getting there, then I see that as a good outcome.

The other thing I want to address is this issue of, “How do I find this person, this mythological person? I can’t afford it. I don’t have the resources. I don’t have the money, etc.” That may be the case, but more often than not, when people come to me with this, and I challenge them on it, we get to the heart of it, and it seems like they’re making excuses because they’re afraid or distrustful or maybe truly ignorant.

In this day and age, when I can personally go on Fiverr and hire somebody for $5 to design a flyer for me, or if I’m really looking for high level…so, that’s on the one end, on the basic task, right? And then on the higher end, folks come to me, and say, “Well, I can’t find a CMO. I can’t afford a CMO.”

And to them I say, “Maybe you can’t afford it, maybe you don’t have the cash, but then maybe if you’re an entrepreneur, you can share equity and find a partner here. Find a partner. Much better to have a smaller piece of a bigger pie and find a partner, or a partner or two or three.” I think there are always creative solutions to find folks to delegate. You could be listening to the show, Pete, and you could be an entry-level employee.

If you have a set of tasks, and you’re responsible for getting those tasks done, and you think of a more creative way to get them done than you doing it, like, for instance, hiring somebody on Upwork and Fiverr for X dollars, and you vet the process and manage the process, and you pitch your boss on the business case for getting the job done that way versus you doing data entry, or whatever that tedious work is all day long, I can’t predict what the boss will say.

But I know that if somebody came to me and gave me a good business case for managing something differently and better than I had thought of in the first place, I’d say, “Great, go for it.” So, a lot of the time, it’s a matter of creatively thinking through better ways to divvy up the work than maybe we’re thinking. Maybe we’re too stuck in the box of having to get the work done ourselves.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we’ve busted one myth. Could you bust another or help us with a general thinking, doing approach for getting over ourselves?

Dave Kerpen
So, Pete, I think the number one thing that holds us back, and the reason Get Over Yourself is really as high as the dual meaning of get over yourself to delegate work, but also get over the mindset issues that get in your way is fear. I think that a lot of us, at all ages and all levels of seniority at companies, have fear of failure, have fear of not getting things right, have fear that other folks won’t get the job done as well as we would, have fear that, maybe if we’re off with our kids or golfing or doing something else, that we’re not doing our job right, even if the work gets done.

There are all these fears that we have, and, ultimately fear, of course, is false evidence appearing real. Fear holds us back. All fear holds us back. And so, in my model, in my vision, in my dream, and in my scenario, and what I try to do, is feel the fear because I’m afraid. I’m afraid of screwing up on your podcast right now. I’m afraid about being valuable for your listeners. I’m afraid of not delivering. But I understand that fear, and then I proceed and act anyway. That’s literally the definition of courage.

And so, instead of, like, trying to push the fear away, when we embrace it and tackle it head on, and say, “It’s okay to be afraid that this person is going to screw up. It’s okay to be afraid that we’re going to lose our jobs. It’s okay to be afraid that we’re going to lose our clients.” And, in the face of that fear, I’m going to take an action and figure out how to best delegate this work so that I don’t lose my mind, so that I don’t burn out, so that I get this job done in a better way than maybe I would have otherwise. And that’s the courage that it takes to get over ourselves in that manner.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. I dig it. Thank you. So, yeah, let’s talk about the model in terms of how, in fact, do we determine what we ought to delegate, and then do so effectively?

Dave Kerpen
So, we’ve got two acronyms. You mentioned the acronyms earlier, and while I said that acronyms are great, I said, “We got to deal with the mindset issues first.” So, we’ve dealt with the mindset issues. We’re through it. We’re having the courage to act. And now what do we actually do and what do we actually delegate?

And so, the model is there’s three things that we should be doing as leaders, managers, individuals with jobs. Those three things have to do with the overall vision and strategy of the goals here. If we’re in a position to hire people, making sure that we have the right people in the right seats, the hiring process, and the resources issue.

Now, resource is a tricky one. If you’re the CEO, yeah, it’s your job to make sure there’s money in the bank. If you manage an apartment, it’s your job to manage up and make sure to your boss that you have the headcount and the resources to get the job done. And if you are managing projects but not people, it is absolutely your job to make sure that you, personally, have the bandwidth and resources, and that, again, you manage up your boss, to say, “This is what I will need to get the job done.” And if that includes an extra $100 to manage a Fiverr project, well, then you’ve got to advocate for that.

So, those three things, strategy and vision, hiring the right people in the right seats, and access to resources and capital to get the job done. After those three things, my belief is that you can delegate nearly all, if not all of the rest. And so, the SHARE model is strategy, hiring, access to capital, and then remind ourselves that, if there’s anything else, we can, E, empower somebody else to do the job.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Dave Kerpen
Then we move into the 5Cs model of delegation. The first, and probably most important C, is choosing the right person or resource to delegate to. Again, we may think, listening right now, because I’ve done a bunch of podcasts that I already know, and I’ve done a lot of coaching of people, and I’ve heard all of the complaints, all the excuses already, “I don’t have the resources. I don’t have the money. I don’t have the budget.”

So, let me share that when we’re thinking about choosing the right person, it is not just a full-time employee that you could delegate this work to. It could be an intern, it could be an apprentice, it could be a contractor on Upwork or Fiverr, it could be a virtual assistant, it could be a vendor, a consultant, there are a partner, there are numerous types of folks that you could delegate the work to.

And the biggest mistake folks do is jumping immediately to hiring the wrong person, maybe just the person that’s the closest in proximity, the person that works down the hall from them, the person that is their peer, the person that, “Oh, my goodness, my first company was in the social media space.” Do you know how many people hired their 21-year-old niece or nephew to run social media for their company because they happened to be the 21-year-old?

Pete Mockaitis
“You use Instagram.”

Dave Kerpen
“You’ve been on it. You’ve been on TikTok. You have a TikTok account, don’t you? Make some videos for me.” So, this first big mistake is choosing the wrong person. And if there’s anything that should be the bottleneck – nothing really should be a bottleneck – but if there’s anything that it’s worth taking the most time on, it’s that first piece of choosing the person to delegate to.

The next C is communicating clearly what the intended outcome is. And, note, what I’m talking about is not every step. There are some folks out there that, whether I say it or not, they’re going to micromanage, they’re going to do the standard operating procedures, they’re going to do detailed instructions on precisely how to get to the finish line.

And if that’s really important to you, I’m not here to say you can’t do that, but in my experience when hiring people, folks like autonomy. They like to be able to get to the finish line in their own way, zigzag a little bit, learn a little bit, have some freedom. People aren’t robots. They don’t want to just, like, input in, output out. They don’t want to be robots.

Exception might be GPT and actually delegating to robots. We can get to that in a little while. But when we’re managing people, what I would say is, the key thing here with this C is to communicate clearly the intended outcome, what does success really look like, paint that picture, and then, ideally, empower them to get there the way that they see fit.

The next C is coaching them to success. Way too many people see themselves as managers. Nobody likes managers. Managers are bosses. Managers are in your face. Managers are not there to support you. They’re there to boss you around. Coaches, on the other hand, which is I strongly urge you all to use the word coach instead of manager. Coaches, anyone that’s played sports as a kid has had the experience of having a coach, hopefully, a good coach, somebody that cheers them on, teaches them along the way, supports them when they have challenges. So, by all means, coach your person on to success.

The fourth C is check in on the regular. I personally like weekly 15-minute check-ins, just where I’m there to say, “Any challenges? How can I help you reach your goals, etc.?” And then the final C, which is often also forgotten, is congratulate them. When you get to the finish line, please, by all means, like, celebrate success. Celebrate success together and then, of course, move on to the next project. So, that’s, in a nutshell, the SHARE model for what to delegate, and the 5Cs model for how to delegate when possible.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I like that a lot. And, Dave, I’d love it if you could make this come alive for me with an example that I’ve heard is quite tricky. I was chatting with someone who is just excellent at sales, in terms of when he’s having those conversations with a prospect, they are just listening wonderfully, asking great questions, building rapport, being super honest and creative, like, “Hey, these are the solutions we got. This might work for you. This probably won’t. This is what I would try instead, such that it generates referrals and business and great close rates, all sorts of lovely things.”

And yet, the challenge is there’s a whole lot of other responsibilities in the universe of making sales happen beyond talking to a prospect in terms of managing the lists, and the outbounds, and the marketing, and the vetting of the potential prospect, etc. And so, we’ve had some conversations, like, “Boy, it should be great if there’s a way that we could delegate all of that, such that you just had appointment after appointment after appointment, and doing what you’re amazing at, and doing less of what sort of sucks your energy, and is not perhaps the highest and best use of your time. That’d be really cool.”

And he said, “Yes, that would be really cool, but in practice I’ve never actually seen a master salesperson do that effectively because people come in, prospects come in, you want to be quick and responsive to them, like, all the time, before the demo or the meeting, and then have the follow-ups, but the follow-ups are best coming from you and not someone else, because they’re like, ‘Wait, who’s this other person? Am I going to talk to this person? I want to talk to the main salesperson, and not the secondary assistant to the salesperson.’”

And so, these are the sorts of hang-ups that have made this tricky. So, Dave, I’m just going to lay that on you, and say, here’s the trickiest delegation question I’ve bumped into, how do we crack it?

Dave Kerpen
Well, Pete, it’s as if we planned this, and God is my witness, we did not. But the story that I will share is actually precisely the same role, and I didn’t write about this in the book, but perhaps I should have. A very impressive young man, Sam, who was a salesperson for me, who, very similar to what you said, was an excellent salesperson, not so excellent, as frankly probably many salespeople are, not so excellent at the pre-work, the post-work, the putting it into the CRM, all of that administrative stuff.

And he said to me, “Dave, can I have a budget for an assistant?” And I said, “No. So, here’s what I’m going to do. You take the chats. You prove the business model. You hire the assistant out of your commissions. And if it works, I’ll make the budget for you.” I wanted him invested in making it work. And, lo and behold, he took money out of his own commission check to fund an assistant to do all of that, to delegate all of that stuff to. And this is a rare case because in corporate America, you’re not funding a headcount out of your own pocket, right? That’s pretty insane.

But in this small business entrepreneurial environment, he pitched me. I said, “Here’s the deal. You want to do this? Go ahead.” And guess what? It worked, and I created the budget for sales support, for admin support because he was able to prove that there was a business value in delegating all that other stuff, that frankly was not the best use of his time, to somebody else. So, it’s absolutely doable. It is doable.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so it is doable, and that’s encouraging. Could you share with us a little bit of the particulars, some of the nitty-gritty for how this vexing delegation problem can actually be cracked in the nuts and bolts?

Dave Kerpen
I mean, he chose, he interviewed a bunch of people. We’ll walk you through with the five C’s model. So, he interviewed a bunch of people. He knew what he was looking for. And for him, while the tasks were important, the fit, the cultural fit, the somebody that he could reach out to and really bounce things off of was probably even more important. So, I’m not him, but as I understand, he interviewed maybe seven or eight people, hired somebody.

Hired AJ. Gave AJ very clear directions over the types of prospects that he wanted him to reach out to. AJ did the prospecting. AJ did the outreach. There were some missteps along the way. People are going to make mistakes, that’s okay, as long as you coach them. So, Sam coached him, “You know, actually, I’d like more prospects like this,” and he did just that.

He adjusted along the way, getting him better prospects. They showed up for the call. Sam did his work. He closed them up, passed them back to AJ, who followed up to do the contracts and do the follow-ups and do all of that administrative work, getting them in the CRMs and doing the contracts and all that stuff. And, ultimately, both people did their jobs. And Sam made a lot more money for himself, and for me, for the company, by delegating that work and see him coaching his assistant through the steps that he needed done.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And not to get too much into the weeds here.

Dave Kerpen
Yeah, no, weeds.

Pete Mockaitis
When AJ was reaching out, AJ is reaching out, as AJ in his name and his email to the people, and he’s saying to the prospects, “Oh, let me have you speak with Sam.” And there’s a handoff? Or is AJ stealth being Sam?

Dave Kerpen
No, no, there’s a handoff. I think that authenticity is important. And so, I’m all for delegating, clearly, many, many things, but if you get a LinkedIn message from me, it’s from me. And I might have an assistant, my apprentices are going to write all the messages, they might draft all the messages, they might select all, using whatever criteria, they’ll do all the work in figuring out who to send messages to. But I like to click send. I do think it’s important, at the end of the day, for authenticity of we are who we say we are.

Pete Mockaitis
And I agree. And what’s really funny is, in this particular delegation scenario, and I guess this is a tricky nuance I’m glad we’re discussing, it’s funny because, well, so, Dave, I get a lot of inbound pitches. People want to be on the podcast, and that’s cool. What a great place to be. What a blessing. But what’s really funny is it’s clear that either there are, I don’t know, PR firms or software or automations or something happening, where someone says, “Oh, hey, Peter, I think we could really make a great podcast, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,”

And I say, “Yes, I agree. In fact, we did make a great podcast four months ago. It was memorable to me. I’m sorry if you’ve already forgotten it.” And I’m just teasing them because I know what’s happening, and they’re like, “Oh, Pete, I’m so sorry. Oh!” you know. Or, I’d be like, “Hey, Justin, I’m getting this message from you, but it feels as though we don’t have a relationship and we haven’t seen each other in person numerous times, and we certainly have.” And he’s like, “Oh, yeah, sorry!”

And so that happens, and I don’t hold it against them, like, “You’re dead to me for this faux pas.” But it does diminish a little bit. It’s not a good feeling, and it could actually, in fact, be more devastating if, in fact, they’re like, “Hey, what the heck, man? We’ve had a long-standing business relationship, and maybe actually things are tense right now in our business relationship, and I’m getting an automated message from ‘you’ that isn’t really from you.” That might be enough to push it over the edge.

I think there’s a lot to it, whether it’s a human or a robot or an automation, that the way you’ve said it is, it’s like, you’re the person who clicks send, because then you can be like, “No, wait a minute, not that person. I’m already friends with that person. They don’t get a message like this.”

Dave Kerpen
That’s right. That’s right. And as much as I think that there are lots and lots of opportunity for delegation to tools and use of software tools when we don’t have, you know, I talk about resources to delegate, sometimes we don’t have individuals, or we don’t think we have individuals to delegate to. There are a lot of great tools to manage a lot of tasks. But when it comes to communication with people, I do think authenticity is an issue.

It’s funny. I told the story in my very first book, now 12 years ago, about I was friends with a State Senator on Facebook and I got a chat, a live chat from him asking me for a donation. And I was like, “Huh? I donated. I feel like I donated recently.” And he replied, “I know but I really need a little bit more.” And something was amiss, so I said, “Wait, this is my State…” I’ll protect the guilty here. I said, “This is my State Senator, X and X name, right?” Pause. And I said, “Please respond.” “Actually, this is an intern. I’m managing the account.”

Like you said, sometimes the stakes are higher than other times. I mean, if I really wanted to blow that person up for using interns to pretend to be them, to ask for money, I mean, it’s a really bad look, I think. So, I think we have to be very cautious about how much we, I’ll say how much we automate, and how much we automate about that final step in the process.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And I’ve heard that said as a general rule of thumb for AI, like, “Have a human in the process so it doesn’t do dumb things, like automatically deny everybody’s health insurance claims.” Like, whoopsie daisy, you know, or a number of the embarrassments that people have managed to get themselves into when they use AI without the human oversight touch.

Dave Kerpen
Yeah, I love, love, love large language models like ChatGPT for drafts, first drafts of articles, of emails, of marketing plans. I mean, there is massive, massive value in the work that a large language model can provide and produce, given the right input. So, the work becomes less about what to produce and more about the inputs, the prompts that you give the models.

But all of that is really wonderful, again, for a first draft, and then I urge you, as a human, to take that first draft and check it over, first of all, like literally, for some obvious ones. We’ve heard some of the horror stories there. But then work with it, use it as a starting point, because what a great starting point. Sometimes folks have come to me super overwhelmed.

Actually, I just had a woman that I invested in say, “I need a marketing plan. I don’t know even where to start.” And I said, “Here’s where to start. Go to ChatGPT, put in your goals, put in your budget, put in your target audience, and ask for a draft of a marketing plan.” She did it, and it produced a six-page marketing plan for her to consider. Now that’s a great first draft, but it took 10 minutes. And years ago, or without me, without that idea, she might have taken 10 hours to come up with that initial starting point.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, Dave, tell me anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Dave Kerpen
I want to give the listeners credit. Sometimes I take for granted that some of this stuff is easy because I’ve been doing it for a while, but I want to recognize that it’s hard. It’s hard to shift the mindset. It’s hard to change. It’s hard to let go of stuff that you’re used to owning and controlling and doing the work on. I want to really take a moment to recognize that and appreciate that. If you’re listening and you’re thinking, “Well, he’s full of S-H, and in the real world, this is hard.”

I hear you and I get it. It is hard stuff and it is worth doing the work on, is my pitch. It’s worth muddling through and challenging oneself, and becoming more self-aware about the limiting beliefs and challenge and fears that are holding us back from delegating more, and the constraints that we think we have that maybe we don’t have as badly as we might think, and then doing the work. And there’s a brighter side on the other side of the rainbow, it really is. It gets easier.

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely. All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dave Kerpen
Sure. My favorite quote is from Seth Godin, who writes, “How dare you settle for less when the world’s made it so easy to be remarkable?” I think so many of us go through life like not being as intentional as we could be, and not doing the work to really stand out, and be amazing. And I think, like Seth says, it’s not that hard to be amazing. Go for it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Dave Kerpen
Probably Adam Grant’s research. He’s probably my favorite author and I love his research. I’ll go back to his initial research from his first book, Give and Take, that talked about givers, takers, and matchers, and the value of becoming a giver and giving freely. It’s a little tricky to talk about this on a podcast because I get that I’m giving information, but it’s more of a matching situation. I’m expecting to get book promotion. I’m getting that and I’m grateful for it.

But that first book of his that I read really moved me, if I wasn’t a giver already, to become a giver to the extent possible, and the research shows that it pays. It’s ironic because we need to give without the expectation of getting something back, but when we do that, it just comes back to us tenfold in the long run.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And can you share a favorite tool something that helps you be awesome at your job?

Dave Kerpen
There’s so many that I could talk about, but I want to say that the free, simplest set of tools is Google Suite. Yeah, Google Sheets, Google Docs, and Google Slides. Those three I use nearly every day, and for next to nothing I’m able to do a lot of cool stuff. So, thank you, Google.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Dave Kerpen
Walking. Walking gets the blood flowing and is a healthy habit. I chuckled because I have a whole bunch of habits that maybe aren’t enjoyable, maybe not as healthy as walking.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Dave Kerpen
With the context of delegation in mind, it’s probably “Hire slow, fire fast.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dave Kerpen
I would say, first and foremost, I have pro bono office hours. I’ve met with 838 people over the last 10 years on Thursday afternoons. So, anyone that wants to chat with me, get some free coaching, absolutely no strings attached, I never charge for coaching ever, go to ScheduleDave.com, and you can book some free time with me on a Thursday afternoon. Of course, the book Get Over Yourself, and all my books are available on Amazon and bookstores everywhere. And if you’re looking for really awesome college-level talent, ChooseApprentice.com is our website.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dave Kerpen
Feel the fear. Life is scary. Be courageous. Think of what you can get off of your plate and challenge yourself to say no, say no to more, and then figure out how you can take those no’s and get that work done in one way or the other, either delegating to humans, delegating to ChatGPT, getting that work off your plate so that you can say yes to more, not necessarily at your job, but more of your priorities in your life and with your family.

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely. Dave, this is powerful stuff. Thank you. I wish you many more successful delegations.

Dave Kerpen
Thank you so much for having me, Pete. It’s great to connect.