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Career Management Archives - Page 4 of 30 - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Sep 11
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897: Jon Acuff: The Three Steps to Achieving Any Goal

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Jon Acuff reveals why we often struggle to meet our goals—and shares practical advice for achieving results.

You’ll Learn:

  1. How to make your loftiest goals more reachable
  2. The “right” amount of goals to pursue
  3. How to stay motivated when things get tough

About Jon

Jon Acuff is the New York Times bestselling author of nine books, including Soundtracks, Your New Playlist, and the Wall Street Journal #1 bestseller Finish: Give Yourself the Gift of Done. When he’s not writing or recording his popular podcast, All It Takes Is a Goal, Acuff can be found on a stage as one of INC’s Top 100 Leadership Speakers. He’s spoken to hundreds of thousands of people at conferences, colleges, and companies around the world, including FedEx, Range Rover, Microsoft, Nokia, and Comedy Central. He lives outside of Nashville, Tennessee, with his wife and two daughters.

Resources Mentioned

Jon Acuff Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Jon, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Jon Acuff
Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to it.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m looking forward to it, too. I’m excited to get your latest hot takes on goal-setting, goal-achieving from your latest All It Takes Is a Goal: The 3-Step Plan to Ditch Regret and Tap Into Your Massive Potential. But first, I think we need to hear a little bit about you and tap dancing. What’s the scoop here?

Jon Acuff
Oh, yeah, I was super popular in high school. I took tap dancing. You knew you were cool and popular if you were also into tap dancing in high school. So, I went to an all-boys Catholic high school, and we would have a musical review where we would partner with other schools that only had girls. So, it was only time to ever, like, dance with a girl. So, I was like, “I’ll do that if it requires tap dancing, let’s go.” And I genuinely enjoyed tap dancing. And I don’t tap anymore, I’ve kind of retired, but, yeah, I love tap dancing. I was a big tap dancer.

Pete Mockaitis
So, you only did the tap dancing in high school or did it carry on over?

Jon Acuff
Only in high school. No, I live in nowhere, you would, in college. Imagine you’re some roommate and I bring tap shoes to college, like in my dorm room, and in the hallway just like working on routines. Yeah, no, it began and ended in high school, 100%.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think it looks and sounds really cool whenever I’m beholding it.

Jon Acuff
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you don’t want to see a lot of it. It’s like four hours of it is too much.

Pete Mockaitis
That it is. Well, I’m excited, you’ve got so much wisdom when it comes to goals. And you’ve got a fresh book here All It Takes Is a Goal. Can you tell us, anything novel, surprising, counterintuitive that you discovered while putting this one together?

Jon Acuff
Well, I always try to write books that start with a challenge I’m having in my own life, and something I’m trying to figure out, and then I see, “Do other people have the same challenge? Like, is it worth turning into a book?” And we asked 3,000 people, there’s this PhD guy, Mike Peasley, he’s a professor at MTSU here in town, if they feel like they’re living up to their potential. And 96% of people said no.

So, I was surprised at the size of that, like, that there’s a general sense that people feel like they could do more with their lives but don’t know how to. So, that kind of, I would say, that surprised me, the size of that.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, that’s intriguing. Do you think it’s that they don’t know how to or they think, “That just seems like a lot of work, I don’t feel like it”? What’s your vibe there?

Jon Acuff
I think it’s a variety of things. I think it feels complicated. I think we have broken soundtracks. Like, I wrote this book called Soundtracks about mindset, soundtrack being like a repetitive thought. And one of my broken soundtracks is “Mo money, mo problems.” Like, if you build a successful life, more problems, more money. Like, success comes with so many complications. It’s going to be so difficult. And then you end up playing smaller because you’re afraid of these fictional complications.

So, I think some people go, “I could if I wanted to but it sounds like it’d be stressful.” I think a lot of people just don’t know if it’s even possible. They live in a town where nobody wrote a book, so they don’t even have a concept in their head that you could be an author if you wanted to be. Like, you could just do that. And so, I think people pull back from their goals and their opportunities for a variety of reasons.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And so then, what’s the big idea or main thesis behind your book there All It Takes Is a Goal?

Jon Acuff
Well, the main thesis is essentially if you have this big desire and you want to accomplish it, all you have to do is turn it into a goal. And you can turn anything into a goal, and there’s practical steps to do it. So, one of the surprises, this wasn’t a surprise of writing the book, but because you asked that question about, like, what surprised me, I’ve been surprised how many podcast interviews have pushed back against the idea of guaranteed goals.

So, in the book, I talk about there’s three different types of goals. There’s easy goals, there’s middle goals, there’s guaranteed goals. And so, I’ve had a bunch of people say, “Well, what do you mean, how can you guarantee a goal? There’s no such thing as a guaranteed goal.” But, for me, I always respond, “I couldn’t have written about that idea in book one because I hadn’t done it. I didn’t know this idea was possible. But this is book nine, and they haven’t happened because of magic. They’ve happened because I took this desire to write books, and I turned it into a goal.

And, like, when this book came out, I turned in a tenth book in the same week. And so, there’s going to be an eleventh book, there’s going to be a twelfth book, not because it’s magic or I’m extra creative but I turn something I really wanted to do, which is write books, into a goal, and I was able to execute it. So, I think that’s one of the core ideas in the book, is you can accomplish almost anything with the right steps and really enjoy it along the way.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, just to be fully clear, what is it that you mean by a guaranteed goal?

Jon Acuff
So, here’s the metaphor that I’ve been using. Most people, when they think about a goal, imagine a ladder, and it’s only got two rungs. So, they go, “I want to start a podcast,” “I want to run a marathon,” “I want to write a book.” And you have a 12-foot-tall ladder, there’s one rung at the bottom that says, “Day one,” and there’s one rung at the top that says, “Publish the book,” or, “Grow a million-listener podcast.”

And if I said to you, “Okay, Pete, you have to get to the top of that ladder,” you’d go, “This is going to be…goals are really hard. I guess I just have to jump and try to grab it.” And what my approach is: what if you had rungs that were six inches apart all the way up the ladder? Like, would that be an easier ladder to climb? Do you think you can accomplish that?” And people go, “Yeah.” And then I say, “Okay. Well, great. Well, let’s take this massive thing and then find out how to make the steps easy. Let’s do some easy goals.”

So, an easy goal has a one to seven-day timeframe. You do an experiment. You’re not going all in. People tend to go, like, “I got to go all in. I got to do it all.” Like, you’ll see people buy expensive YouTube cameras without figuring out what they want their channel to be. So, they’ll go, “I’m going to buy, I’m going to go all in,” but they don’t do the easy things first, so they lose momentum.

So, my plan is, “What’s an easy goal? How do we succeed? How do we get some proof that it’s worth turning into a middle goal?” A little more time. A little more investment. A little more effort. And then, eventually, you get to where it’s a guaranteed goal where it’s going to happen. So, an example of that would be I have a friend who wants to have a million subscribers on YouTube. He’s got about 800,000 right now.

There’s no planet where he doesn’t end up getting with a million subscribers. Like, he’s in motion. Like, there’s no, “I’m going to sell a million books in my career.” I have sold 860,000-ish books. That’s going to happen because I’m in the middle of the ladder. I didn’t say at the very bottom, “I’m going to sell a million books.” That would’ve been egotistical and silly. But I’m on the middle of this journey. I’ve done a lot of easy goals. I wrote a lot of small blogs. I’ve done a lot of small writing. And then I turn them into middle goals.

I wrote some short books, and then I wrote some longer books, and then I sold some other books. So, now I’m in the middle of the ladder. I know that’s going to happen. That’s what I mean by a guaranteed goal. It’s got factors like the results are in your control. A bad guaranteed goal would be me saying, “Pete, I’m going to hit the New York Times’ bestseller’s list.” That’s a terrible goal. Anytime an offer tells me that’s their goal, I go, “I get it. I get it. I’m so glad I hit it but you don’t control that. You have zero control over that.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, the competitors and what do people buy.

Jon Acuff
No, it’s a formula. Like, it’s a formula you don’t have access to. Like, you could sell more than 10 people on the list but if you don’t hit the formula, it doesn’t matter. So, not even just the competitors. You could sell more than every competitor but if you haven’t hit the formula that they keep private, it doesn’t matter. So, you don’t control that.

So, a guaranteed goal is you control it, it’s measurable so you’ve got some…you can measure what you’re doing. You’ve got proof of middle goals and easy goals that have succeeded. So, that’s what I mean by a guaranteed goal where your effort ensures the results.

Pete Mockaitis
Got you, yeah. Well, that’s clear, the effort ensures the results. Got it. All right. Well, could you maybe share an inspiring story of some folks who weren’t making much progress, they felt like they weren’t hitting their potential, their goals were stalled, and they saw things transformed?

Jon Acuff
Yeah, so one of my favorite stories in the book, this woman named Susan Robertson. She got her Bachelor’s Degree in the Car Rider pickup line. And what I mean by that is she’s a super busy mom like a lot of moms are super busy. And she found 10-minute, 15-minute, 20-minute segments of time where she could figure out, over a period of time, how to spend that time towards a bachelor’s degree. She finished a bachelor degree in the car rider pickup line.

And I love her story because it pushes back against the excuse we all have of, “I’m too busy. I’ve got…I’m too busy. I’m too busy. I’m too busy.” So, she’s probably one of my favorite stories.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. All right. Well, so then, tell us, we have goals, or we don’t yet have goals, or we feel the sense that we’re fallen short of potential, what are the fundamental drivers or reasons behind this?

Jon Acuff
Yeah, one reason would be you’re chasing fake goals. So, you’re chasing things you think you want to do but you don’t really want to do them. So, you’ve told people for years you want to write a book but it’s been 10 years and you haven’t written a book. Maybe you don’t want to write a book, and that’s okay. Like, that’s perfectly fine.

Maybe you inherited a goal. I meet people at times, especially college students, that’ll say, “I’m a senior about to go to law school. My mom told me I’d be a good lawyer. I don’t want to be a lawyer. Like, what do I do?” They inherited that goal from their mom, and they’re not going to really enjoy that goal. Another is impostor syndrome. That’s a really common thing. You start to work on something, and impostor syndrome goes, “You’re not a real entrepreneur,” “You’re not a real writer,” “You’re not a real runner.” “Like, you can’t go lose weight. You’re not an athlete. You have to be an athlete.”

Another one would be perfectionism. You’re trying to do it perfectly, which is impossible. And so, anytime you make a misstep, you feel like, “Okay, this isn’t the right goal for me, or I’m not the right person.” Overthinking is another one, you end up overthinking what you really want to do. I would say there’s any number of villains that get in the way, and a lot of them do boil down to you’ve got fear about the process, you’ve got fear that it’s going to hurt, you’ve got fear about the result, you self-sabotage. There are so many things get in people’s way.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, having identified these, what are some of the solutions?

Jon Acuff
So, my favorite solution, let’s just take impostor syndrome. The only instant cure to impostor syndrome is to do the work. It’s the only thing that cures impostor syndrome. And an example of that would be when I first started writing, impostor syndrome said, “Ahh, you’re not a real writer. Like, you’re not a writer. Who are you to share ideas? You’re not a writer.” And it said that. And then I wrote and it got a little quieter.

And then the second day, I wrote, and it was still there, and the third day, and the fourth day, but, eventually, I looked up and I had published a book. So, when impostor syndrome came in, it was like, “Hey, you’re not a writer,” I was like, “This is awkward because I’m holding a book. It’s got my picture on it. It’s got my name right on the cover. I think I might be a writer.”

At this point, on book nine, it can’t whisper that to me because I say, “Well, there’s a stack of them. They’re in 20 languages. Like, I think I might actually be a writer.” Like, the work generates results, and results are impostor syndrome’s Kryptonite. I didn’t get over impostor syndrome and then write. I wrote until I got over that form of impostor syndrome. So, that’s a really easy example. And the fun thing is the work is available always. And the second you do even a little of it, impostor syndrome gets a little quieter.

You go to your first gym class; impostor syndrome gets a little quieter. You launch your first podcast episode; it gets a little quieter. So, that one, to me, feels really, really solvable in a really, really simple way.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And what if the hangup is just like, “Ugh, I’m just kind of comfortable. That seems like a lot of work. I don’t know about all that”?

Jon Acuff
I agree, dude. I agree. Here’s what I’d say, Pete. The only thing easier than doing a goal is not doing the goal. Like, it’s really the only thing easier. The only thing easier than writing a book is not writing a book. Or, the only thing easier than going to the gym is not going to the gym. So, I think the trick here is that nobody just decides to have willpower. Nobody wakes up and goes, “Today, I have grit. Today, I’m going to be disciplined.” Nobody just wakes up and changes their life that way.

What usually happens is one of two things. You get out of a comfort zone either from an involuntary crisis, something happens outside of your control, like a parent gets sick, you lose your job, and, “Oh, I got to find another job,” or a voluntary trick, like you figure out, “I want this thing more than staying the same. I’m going to trick myself into changing. Like, I’m going to find a way to actually change.”

So, for me, when I was 34 years old, I had two kids under the age of four, a full-time job at Auto Trader, Atlanta commute, an hour and a half each way, I had freelance clients, a bunch of responsibilities, but I started a blog, and I really liked it, and I was like, “Wait a second. This seems kind of neat. Like, I wish I could do more of this.” Like, I got this small little desire.

And then I started to look at each hour of my day like a log, and I wanted to throw more of them into this burning fire, this blaze. And so, I didn’t stop watching TV as much because I was disciplined. I just wanted that time to go to this thing I absolutely loved, and I couldn’t find enough time to throw at it, so I started to get up early in the morning, I started practicing speeches in the drive to work. Like, I started throwing as much time as I could into it.

So, a lot of times, if somebody goes, “Ahh, it seems like a lot of work,” I agree. It just means you don’t have a thing you really desire yet. Like, if you had something you really desired, it would woo you into changing. It would make you want to change, not, “I have to figure out how I make myself change.”

Pete Mockaitis
And for those whose passion, desire, is at a low ebb, any pro tips for surfacing? Where is that thing?

Jon Acuff
Well, I think part of it is you might…it depends on if you’re practicing being low. And what I mean by that is nothing happens awesome accidentally. Like, nobody accidentally gets in shape. I’ve never met a single person that goes, “Yeah, I was just binge-watch Netflix, I look up and I was doing burpees. I don’t even remember getting off the couch.” Like, everything that’s awesome takes work.

An awesome marriage takes work. The default of marriage is to be pulled apart in separate directions and get a divorce. That’s the default. You have to work to have a good marriage. There’s no such thing as an accidentally awesome marriage. It takes work. Same with positivity. Same with negativity. So, an example of that is if somebody said to me, “Jon, I feel really low, I feel really down,” I’d go, “Well, tell me about what you’re practicing? Like, what are you practicing? Like, are you practicing positivity? Are you practicing negativity? Like, where are you making choices that feed one or the other?”

So, for me, I’m a very naturally negative person. Like, I’m super pessimistic, I’m very low naturally. I always joke like I have a counting crows-like temperament, like just very moppy, very jaded, cynical. But I’ve tested positivity, and I’ve tested negativity, and the ROI of positivity is so much better. Again, it’s so much more productive, like I get books written, I get to accomplish goals. Negativity never dreams. It can’t dream. It only sees the negative side of things.

So, when somebody says to me they’re low, it’s often like they’re saying, “Jon, I feel really hungry,” and I go, “Well, did you eat anything today?” and they go, “No, I haven’t eaten anything in three days.” And I go, “What? I’m going to blow your mind. I know why you’re hungry. You’re hungry because you haven’t eaten anything.”

So, if you say to me, “Jon, I feel low, I feel negative,” and I go, “Tell me about how you spent your day.” “Well, I hate my job. I was on social media arguing with strangers about politics. I listen to murder podcast episodes to work and back from work. And then at night, I watch documentaries about murders.” And then you’re like, “I don’t know why I feel negative.” I’d be like, “I know in my shirt, the clothes I wear say ‘Namaste in bed.’ Or, ‘I can’t adult’ today.”

You wore a reminder limiting yourself for an entire day, and you’re like, “I don’t know why I feel low.” I know why. You practiced that for an entire day, maybe even an entire year. What if we started practicing some other things? What if we just start, not massive things all at once, But if you have something, if this isn’t working for you, let’s practice something else? If it is working for you, like keep getting those results. That’s fine.

Like, sometimes people say to me, “This stuff is common sense. It’s common sense,” which I always push back, and go, “If you’re doing those things, it’s common sense. If you’re in the best shape of your life right now, it’s common sense. If you have more money in your 401k and retirement, if you love your job, all of these things are common sense. If you don’t have that type of life right now, this is extraordinary because you’re not doing any of it.” So, like, engage in it if you want to, or just stick with the results you have, that’s your choice. You get to choose that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, let’s say we do have the desire, we got something going, and we’re like, “All right, Jon, I got a goal. Tell me, what is this three-step plan? How do I get after it and maximize the odds that I will achieve it?”

Jon Acuff
Well, the first thing we do is we would break it down into small actions so that we could actually practice it. So, we would probably do a 10-hour test. I’d say, “Okay, here’s your massive goal. You want to find a different job. We would go what are some easy ways to start with that? Like, not find a different job tomorrow, not become a different person next week?”

What’s funny with goals, we understand some goals take time and other goals we want fast results. So, nobody ever says, “I’m going to learn Italian this week. Or, I’m going to learn Italian this month.” They know that takes time but find a new job, they go, “I got to find a new job this week. Like, an amazing new job. I got to find it this month.”

So, the first thing I do is say, “Okay, what are some actions we can actually do? How do we make it some easy goals that you can accomplish?” That’s step one. We’re going to escape the comfort zone. Step two would be, “Okay, how do we avoid the chaos zone?” Because what happens is people, when they start a goal, they get a little bit of momentum, and they want to do it all at once.

So, they go from not trying anything to, “I’m going to do everything,” they get inspired, and they land right in the chaos zone, which is too much action, too many goals. It’s why we have the phrase yoyo diet in our country because people yoyo back and forth. What happens with people is they don’t do any goals, they get a little inspired, and they try to do everything.

Like, I meet people at times with a podcast, and they’re like, “I’m going to do a daily podcast. I’m going to go all in like John Lee Dumas. I’m going to do a daily podcast.” And I go, “Have you ever done, like, a weekly? Have you ever done like a bi-weekly?” And they go, “No, I’m going for it. I’m inspired.” And I know you’re going to do seven episodes and realize podcasting is challenging, but you’re in the chaos zone, and so how do I help you get out of that chaos zone?

And then the third thing is, “How do we live in the potential zone?” which is the right amount of goals, the right amount of actions. That’s the three-step, is you escape that comfort zone, you avoid the chaos zone, and you live in the potential zone.

Pete Mockaitis
And how do we know the right amount of goals, the right amount of actions?

Jon Acuff
So, people want me to say a number. Like, people go, “How many goals should I chase?” and they want me to say, “Seven point eight. Pete, you need to do 9.3.” That’s not the answer. The answer is as many as you can do successfully. So, it’s an individual answer. So, there are some times where I’ll meet people that’ll go, “I’ve got a full-time job, I’ve got two kids under the age of five, I’ve got all these commitments.” I’ll go, “Cool. How many hours do you have to invest in your goals?”

The problem, Pete, is people go, “I got these 10 goals I want to do,” and I’ll say, “Okay, how many hours do you think it would take a week to, like, do those well?” And they’ll go, “Well, I don’t know,” and they’ll come up with a list, “It’ll take 20 hours.” And I go, “Cool. Cool. Cool. Right now, on your average week, how many hours of free time do you have? Like, right now, like is it are you dealing with too much time, like you don’t have enough things?” And they’ll go, “No, I don’t have any time.”

And I’ll go, “Okay, so you have 20 hours of goals you want to do. You have a two-hour slot every week. Which one is going into it? Like, which one?” Often, the goal is divorced from the calendar and it never happens. So, you have to say, “Here’s how much time I have, and if you’re not happy with that, here’s where I’m going to go find more time.” But that’s one of the most honest metrics. I think time is probably the most honest metric because it tells you the truth, and it’ll tell you pretty quickly what you actually have time for.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And speaking of time, before, you mentioned the ten-hour, what was your term, the ten-hour…?

Jon Acuff
I said a ten-hour experiment.

Pete Mockaitis
So, what is…is it just we go after some actions over the course of ten hours and then we reflect? Or what do you mean by the ten-hour experiment?

Jon Acuff
So, I’m constantly trying to help people limit the number of goals they’re working on so they can be successful, and then build more into their life. So, again, what happens is people go, I got to do the survey, and the people that read my books, nobody who reads my books comes to me with zero goals. That never happens. The people who don’t have goals don’t read a book called All It Takes Is a Goal. They don’t even know that section of the bookstore exists. They don’t listen to podcasts like yours.

It’s like no one who’s not engaged in getting better and learning and growing is listening to podcasts like this. They don’t even know these kinds of…like, they don’t come to this category of podcasts. What happens is they tend to have lots and lots of things they’re excited about. So, part of my job is to go, “Okay, you got 22 things you’re interested in. Let’s figure out how to narrow that down a little bit so we can actually get some wins and accomplish some of these.”

So, there’s two ways you can do this, there’s probably 50 ways you can do this, but the two that I like are one I’d go, “I want you to write down a list of all the things you’ll get if you accomplish that goal.” “So, write a book.” “Okay, tell me the things you’ll get.” “Start a business.” “Tell me the things you’ll get.” Because I’m trying to get a sense of their real desire because, again, nobody changes just because. They change because the desire makes the thing worth it.

I don’t like delayed flights. I don’t like missing flights. I don’t like airports or hotel travel, but I love being on stage. I love being a public speaker. I do my entire year to be on stage 50 times a year. That’s the trade I’d make because I love it that much. I don’t even care about a delayed flight. I’ll sleep wherever in the Baltimore airport because I love doing that.

If I hated my job, the littlest inconvenience would set me off. I’d go, “Aargh, I can’t…aargh, it’s not worth the commute.” So, I initially try to get a sense of somebody’s desire. So, if I say to you, Pete, “Write down 10 things you’ll get if you do this goal,” and you go, “Ah, I can’t do it.” Great, we can cross it off the list. Like, if you can’t even to that part, you’re going to hate the rest of it. This is the easy part.

So, I do a desire check, and go, “Okay, what do you really care about?” And then I’ll do a 10-hour check, “If you want to invest 10 hours into it, you’re not going to invest the thousand it takes.” Like, if it takes me 500 to a thousand hours to write a book, that’s a pretty big investment. But I can test at the beginning, “Am I willing to even try 10 hours?” And if the 10 hours takes you three months to find, you really don’t want to do the goal. Awesome. Let’s clear that one out. I want you to have a short list that you can actually do, and actually win at, and get some momentum, and then add a bunch to your life.

Pete Mockaitis
So, the 10-hour experiment, the thing we’re testing to see if it’s present is desire. And so, we’ll know, “Hey, we did 10 hours,” or you didn’t do 10 hours. That’s telling in and of itself. Or, you did 10 hours, like, “You know what, actually I hated that.” “Oh, okay.”

Jon Acuff
Yeah, and you might know two hours in. You might know automatically, like, “No, this isn’t the thing.” Like, one of the things I say is, “I want you to find a desire you love so much that it makes Netflix boring.” Like, that’s the thing. You asked me why don’t people accomplish goals. Part of it is we haven’t given companies enough credit.

There are 50,000 people at Facebook right now, and their goal is Pete’s time. Like, that is their goal, it’s, “How do I get more of their time?” Like, the distraction industry has scaled much faster and bigger than our ability to focus. So, we don’t give companies enough credit that you go, “Man, why is it hard to do goals?” Because Netflix and Instagram are very easy. It’s not accidental that you go to look at one photo, and an hour later you’re like, “What just happened? Like, why am I on YouTube looking at, watching a video that had nothing to do?” That’s not accidental.

So, some of the reason it’s hard to accomplish goals is that there’s an entire industry working against you. Netflix doesn’t want you to have a good podcast, Pete. No, they want you to watch more Netflix, and they should. That’s their company mission. Like, Instagram doesn’t want you to get in shape. Like, that’s not their goal. Their goal is you spend 10 hours.

Like, the average American right now watches 34 hours of TV a week according to Nielsen. So, the Nielsen rating is 34 hours of TV a week. So, when somebody says, “Man, I just don’t have enough time for my goals,” I can usually help them find some time, but that’s part of why it’s challenging. That’s part of why it’s difficult.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And so then, we are pursuing the dream, we said, “All right, we’re past the 10-hour experiment. Okay, cool, cool, cool. We’re after it.” Give us some perspective on how we go about translating things into micro actions? Like, just how micro are we talking? And can you give us some examples of breaking things down that way?

Jon Acuff
Yes. So, one of my goals was I wanted to be a better friend. I realized during COVID, I was kind of isolated, I worked at home, I want to be a better friend. I want better connection. I always joke that I know I’m isolated when I over-talk the UPS guy. Like, he’s, “I just want to drop off a box,” and I’m like, “How’s your family? How’s Pam and the kids?”

So, I want to be a better friend. That’s a fuzzy goal. I can’t really operate on that one. It’s not measurable. I can’t really do anything with it. So, then I was like, “Okay, what if I can make that into a daily goal, like a small daily goal?” So, I thought about it, I worked on it a little bit, and I said, “Okay, I’m going to text one person an encouragement every day for 30 days in a row, 30 different people, 30 different encouragements.”

So, okay, now I have a measurable goal. So, then what’s a small action related to that one? Well, what if I made a list of my friends I’m going to text because I know if I get on day four, and I have to go, “Okay, okay, who am I…? Who am I…?” I’m going to quit. I’m going to get distracted by something else. So, I said, “Okay, one of the small actions is I’d make a list of 30 people I want to connect with. And that wasn’t hard, I went through my contacts, and said, “Okay, here’s 30 people I haven’t connected with lately.”

So, then I did that. So, then I made a little chart, I’ve got a little checkbox that says, “For 30 days. I would write a short text to people.” And I made it easy on myself. I didn’t say I’d write 30 handwritten notes. That’s not an easy goal. I got to find stamps and mail and addresses. So, I did that for 30 days in a row, and there wasn’t a single person that responded back, and said, “I wish you hadn’t said that today. Like, today is the worst day for you to tell me that encouragement.” Ninety percent said, “You don’t know how much I needed that today. That was really encouraging.”

So, at the end of the 30 days, it had become a guaranteed goal because, Pete, if I encouraged 30 people for 30 days in a row, I’m guaranteed to be a better friend. Like, 30 interactions with 30 different people, like I am a better friend at the end of the 30 days. That’s not a mystery to me. So, then I go, “I want to be a better dad.” Like, I’ve got two teenage daughters. I want to be a better dad. It’s not easy to raise teenagers.

So, I’m like, “What if I took that principle and I made it apply to just my kids?” So, for 30 days in a row, I encouraged my kids, and I made a list of things that I think are really special about them. So, then I make a list, and I go, “You know, McRae was really brave about this. L.E. was really funny about this,” and then I’m like, “What about actions? What if I helped them in some small ways?”

So, then I come up with a list of that. I’m like, “I could clean McRae’s…” she’s got a small fish, she’s got a betta fish, “I’ll clean the fish bowl once a week.” Like, it takes me 10 minutes but it’s one of those things that a teenage daughter doesn’t want to do. She’s busy. She’s like, “Ugh, that stupid fish,” I’m like, “Oh, I could do a list of actions.

At the end of the 30 days, we have a better relationship. Like, that’s not…again, it’s not complicated. It’s just I went out of my way and spent some time as a dad to think about things that are special about them, to remind them of those things, to do kind things for them. I’m a better dad at the end of that experience than when I was before the experience. So, that’s an example of taking something super fuzzy, like be a better dad. What does that even mean? And making it practical and actionable, and it changed our interactions.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Okay. Well, tell me, Jon, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Jon Acuff
No, no, I have a podcast where I talk about a lot about this, called All It Takes Is a Goal. So, if you’re a podcast person, and you are because you’re listening to one, check out All It Takes Is a Goal.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, maybe before I do that, I’d also want to get your take on with regard to keeping the motivation going, celebration, rewards, not celebrating, not doing rewards, pushing through the moments when you’re just not feeling it. How do you think about the motivational arc over the long term? And what can be done there?

Jon Acuff
Well, motivation is the flightiest thing in the world. Motivation tends to disappear on day two of a goal because that’s when the work shows up. So, I always tell people, “You have to bring your own motivation.” What I teach is you need a motivation portfolio. People tend to think they’re going to find their one why or their vision quest, their reason, their true north and that’ll be enough.

What I found is you need lots and lots and lots of sources of motivation, so a portfolio of motivation. So, when I work with people, I say, “Okay, what are 10 things that you’re going to enjoy about this? What are 10 forms of motivation? What are 20 forms of motivation?” Because some days, one through five won’t even move the needle.

Like, there are some days where it all takes, like, “I’m so close to the motivation, like a song gets me. Like, all right, let’s go. I listened to this song, it’s motivation.” There are some days I can listen to 10 songs and be like, “This is dumb anyway,” and I need a different form of motivation. So, I practice motivation. I don’t see motivation as a checkbox. I expect it to dissipate, I expect it to disappear at times, and I work against that, and I’m deliberate about that, and say, “Okay, I have to practice it. I have to have lots of forms of motivation.”

And the other thing is that I remind myself that excellence is boring. Like, real excellence is boring at plenty of times. So, writing thank you notes to people that nobody sees, that you’re doing all the little things, following up with people, the emails, the details, like people get to see the 30 minutes on stage but there’s 50 other things I’ve done to make that moment happen. And those things are often, like, I just have to do them. They’re small and sometimes annoying.

So, for me, I remind myself of that, and I plan a ton of motivation. I don’t expect motivation to stay long. I know it’s going to leave, and so I always say BYOH, you’ve got to bring your own hype. And so, I work at motivation pretty aggressively.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yes, let’s dig into that. The working on motivation. Having a portfolio. One thing might be the songs. So, you actually have documented, listed somewhere, “These are my pump-up jams.”

Jon Acuff
Yeah, totally. But, like, I’ll have a list where it’s okay. Like, I made a list the other day. Let me just…I’ll just turn to it. I’ll just tell you what’s on this list. So, I went through, and you can tell I’m a big list guy, I’m a fan of the list. I just love to kind of get ideas out of my head and onto a piece of paper. So, the other day I was, like, “Okay, if I work on building an excellent business, what will I get? What will keep me motivated? What are my forms of motivation?”

So, one of them is I can pay for my daughter to go to London. My oldest daughter got accepted to study abroad for a semester in London, and that’s awesome. And if I do my business well, I get to pay for stuff like that. Like, that’s super cool. I control my calendar. If I run my business well, I have a lot more control over my calendar. I love that.

I get to spend time with team members like Jean and Caleb. I can afford to have team members. I love that. I get to plan vacation days. I get to spend time with clients I love if I’m deliberate. So, in addition to things that are traditional, like, “Okay, this music encourages me. A walk around the block encourages me. This person encourages me. Like, a friend that I text with encourages me,” I’ll be really deliberate and go, “Man, if I work hard, I get to afford a personal assistant.” Like, that changed my life.

Seven years ago, like hiring a personal assistant, game changing for me, but I had to learn how to pay for that person, and how to help lead that person. And so, the little things like that, I go out of my way to go, “What happens if I do this well? How do I stay motivated to this?” Because, again, some of those items aren’t going to move me some days. Like, there are some times where the goal is really challenging and I have to go, “No, I’ve already committed, and I committed to somebody that I want to honor the commitment to them.”

Because if you have an accountability coach that you don’t care about, you’ll break that all day. So, you have to have some degree of, “I want to be held accountable to this person. This person matters to me.” So, yeah, I have a pretty robust list of motivation because I’ve just seen it time and time again, if you think it’ll be there, it never grows during a goal, it only shrinks. I have to be the one that grows it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jon Acuff
So, one of mine is from Brad Montague. Brad Montague is the creator of this Kid President campaign, really fun, blew up online. I asked him, “How do you do that creative endeavor with Beyonce, Obama – it was huge – and then do your next one, because there are some times, there’s a creative letdown from the next one?”

And he said, “I have to know whether I’m creating from love or for love.” He said, “When I have an idea, am I sharing it from this amazing amount of love I have for this idea? Or, am I trying to get people to love me via this idea? Am I looking for adoration? Am I looking for attention? Because that’s not going to be a very good idea. I’m not going to feel very good. Or, am I creating something because it’s so big inside me, if I don’t create it, I’m going to burst?”

And so, that’s one of the ways I look at my projects, is like, “Is this from love or for love?” And so, that’s always been a quote that’s been helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Jon Acuff
NYU, Daniel Kahneman talked about this in his book Thinking, Fast and Slow where they took two groups of college students and gave them a word bank, and said, “Create some sentences.” The second group, they had hidden words, trigger words related to being old, like retired and slow and bald and Florida.

And so then, they say, after 20 or 30 minutes, “The second part of the test is down the hall. That’s where the real test started.” They secretly timed the students walking, and the students who had read the word about being old physically acted old just reading those words. So, I put that study in my book “Soundtracks” because it’s a great reminder how powerful your thoughts are, that your thoughts can change your physical actions.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Jon Acuff
The War of Art Steven Pressfield. That’s the one. I love that book.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, man, I listened to the audio version. The title is perfect, it’s like, “The war of art. Like, you really, really, really will feel resistance to doing the thing, and you have to declare war upon that.”

Jon Acuff
Yeah, it was one of those books that got me through my first book. Somebody gave it to me. And so, it’s one that I’ve come back to a few times. And Seth Godin The Dip. I really like The Dip. It was a short book that had a big message for me.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Jon Acuff
Notebooks. I’m a big notebook guy. I’ve read you a list from an actual notebook. There’s a brand called Leuchtturm. They’re better than Moleskine, in my opinion. And so, I love notebooks.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit, something you do that helps you be awesome at your job?

Jon Acuff
Exercise. I need endorphins. My wife will sometimes say, “You need to go for a run,” and that’s her way of being like, “You’re kind of being a huge jerk.” So, yeah, exercise, for me, if I don’t exercise for a few days, I get super low. So, I would say exercise is a habit I use.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they Kindle book highlight it, they retweet it at your speeches and such?

Jon Acuff
Yeah, two would be “Never compare your beginning to somebody else’s middle.” So, when you start your thing, like, when you start a podcast, don’t go look at like Joe Rogan’s podcast, and be like, “Man, my podcast isn’t big enough.” And then another one would be, “Leaders who can’t be questioned end up doing questionable things.” So, if you surround yourself with yes people, you eventually implode.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jon Acuff
JonAcuff.com and then All It Takes Is a Goal is the book. It’s sold anywhere books are sold. And I read the audiobook and there’s 10 bonus chapters in it. So, if you’re into audio, and if you listen to a podcast, you probably are, check that out.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jon Acuff
Yeah, here’s what I’d say. You can’t half-do your day job and then think you’ll hustle in your dream job. You’re one person. If you practice being lazy all week, you won’t turn it on on a weekend. So, when I was jumping from jobs, back and forth, back and forth, I think that I had eight jobs in 12 years. And when I finally realized, “Oh, wait, if I actually perform well at this day job, I’ll also perform well at my dream job. Awesome.” And when I kind of connected those things, my job changed.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, Jon. Thank you. This has been a treat. I wish you much luck and fun and goal-dream achievement.

Jon Acuff
Thanks. I had a blast doing it, Pete.

Aug 31
0

895: The Keys to Continual Growth and Improvement with Eduardo Briceño

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Eduardo Briceño reveals the fundamental factors that accelerate your growth and improvement.

You’ll Learn:

  1. How focusing on performance actually hurts results
  2. The one feedback method that always tells the truth
  3. The five key elements that drive growth

About Eduardo

Eduardo Briceño is a global keynote speaker and facilitator who guides many of the world’s leading companies in developing cultures of learning and high performance. Earlier in his career, he was the co-founder and CEO of Mindset Works, the first company to offer growth mindset development services. Previously, he was a venture capital investor with the Sprout Group.

His TED Talk, How to Get Better at the Things You Care About, and his prior TEDx Talk, The Power of Belief, have been viewed more than nine million times. He is a Pahara-Aspen Fellow, a member of the Aspen Institute’s Global Leadership Network, and an inductee in the Happiness Hall of Fame.

Resources Mentioned

Eduardo Briceño Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Eduardo, welcome back to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Eduardo Briceño
Great to be here, Pete. Thank you for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to hear some of your insights and wisdom that you’ve captured in your book, The Performance Paradox: Turning the Power of Mindset into Action. But, first, I want to hear, talking about growth mindsets, wow, is it, in fact, true that you did not have any prior public speaking experience before you did your TEDx Talk?

Eduardo Briceño
That is true. And I would have never thought, I mean, becoming a public speaker, which I do now, it just didn’t even cross my mind growing up or in my young adult life, but I had started an organization, MindsetWorks with Carol Dweck and Lisa Blackwell, and a board member encouraged me to go out and have people get to know me and know who I was.

We were evangelizing growth mindset, and she thought that as part of that, I needed to kind of become a leader in the industry, and people needed to know who I was. So, I actually thought, “Hey, I don’t have time. I have so much work to do. I agree with you,” but when Carol Dweck was asked to do a TEDx Talk, she couldn’t do it.

So, then we decided, and I thought, “That would be a good opportunity to put a lot of work into 10 minutes. I can do 10 minutes. I can work really hard to prepare a great script and deliver it.” And so, I worked really hard with Carol and with others, and I was so nervous during those 10 minutes. I, the whole time, looked at the back wall and the lights and not at people’s eyes because I thought that I would just blank out if I tried to figure out what people were thinking.

So, that was my first public speaking experience was that TEDx Talk. And then that became pretty popular. It’s being over 4 million times now.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. Yes, far more than the most TEDx Talks, and it’s featured prominently on the TED proper website. Well, it’s funny, I just rewatched that, and you didn’t look that nervous.

Eduardo Briceño
Yeah, I don’t know, that was surprising to me. I went on the stage, and I thought, “Okay, I’m prepared. I’ve done everything I can. And now, what’s going to help my performance is to relax. I know I’m not going to look at people, so I had a plan.” And that helped me be relaxed, and I was more relaxed than I would have thought.

And then, a few years later, four years later, I did another TEDx Talk that became a TED Talk, and that also has been viewed over 4 million times. And that was the basis for the book that I wrote, The Performance Paradox.

Pete Mockaitis
So, tell us, what’s the big idea in the The Performance Paradox?

Eduardo Briceño
The performance paradox is the counterintuitive fact that if we fixate solely on performing, our performance suffers. So often we’re really encouraging ourselves and others to just focus on executing, doing the best we know how, trying to minimize mistakes, and that hurts our performance. That is the counterintuitive fact, that is chapter one, is the problem, and the rest of the book is about the solution, how to overcome that problem.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you elaborate on the pathway? How is it that doing the same thing and trying not to make mistakes makes our performance worse?

Eduardo Briceño
Yeah. So, the best way to understand this is if we kind of step out of our everyday context and look at people who are fantastic at what they do, in domains where performance can be objectively measured, so sports, chess, performing arts, incredible acrobats. If you think about how an acrobat, for an example, what they do, when we see them perform, they do these incredible acrobatic things, they do it beautifully, and they rarely make mistakes.

And we tend to kind of have this vague idea that the way they became so good is by spending a lot of hours doing that thing that we are seeing. But actually, the way they become so good is by doing something very different from what we’re seeing. When they are behind curtains, at the gym or at the studio, they are making a lot of mistakes, they’re missing the timing a lot because they’re focused on what they haven’t mastered yet, they’re focused on the next level of challenge, and the show is always evolving.

And so, it’s the time they spend in what I call the learning zone, which is when they’re focused on improvement that allows them to build their skills and to be so excellent in the performance zone. Same thing in sports, if you’re playing a championship final, you’re having trouble with a move, you’re going to avoid that move during the match. But after the match, you go to your coach, you say, “Coach, I have to work on this move,” that’s a very different activity and area of attention than what we do during the match.

And what often happens for a lot of us is that we spend most of our time, if not all of our time, in the performance zone, just trying to get things done as best as we can, trying to minimize mistakes, and that works okay when we’re novices because we’re so bad, we don’t need great learning strategies to get better. But once we become proficient, we stagnate, we don’t continue to improve, and we think the reason is we can’t improve, that’s a fixed mindset, but the reason really is that we’re not engaging the learning zone.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s a really great distinction because I think some of the folks would say, “Well, of course, I’ve seen myself get better the more I do a thing. That’s sort of self-evident in my own experience.” And I love what you had to say there, like, “Well, yes, that works just fine when you are really clueless.”

Eduardo Briceño
Yeah, and it is amazing that we do learn that by experience. If I want to start to play tennis, I could go into the court and just play tennis with a friend, then I will get better. And so, we learn by experience that that’s the way to improve but then we stagnate once we become proficient, and then we conclude that we can’t get better. We develop a fixed mindset when we haven’t developed the skills and the habits in order to continue to improve and become excellent.

Like, if you look at an Olympic gold medalist, they’re the best in the world but they will then engage in deliberate practice to go beyond what they can do to continue to get even better. They don’t just play games and matches.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Eduardo, in a way, this is really haunting, as I think from a meta perspective of just podcasting. I think that was accurate for, maybe, I don’t know, several hundred, I don’t know, 300, 600, some number of hundreds of episodes, I think I got better just by doing more episodes and talking to folks. And then I have had a little bit of a sense of stagnation here.

And I thought it was just in my head, and I’ve heard people say, it’s like, “Oh, wow, you were pretty good when we started, and now you’re amazing.” I say, “Well, thank you. I appreciate that.” But I have felt like, “I don’t think I’m actually getting better at this,” and that just makes sense. Like, “Well, before, just doing it more times was sufficient to help me get better. And now, that is no longer sufficient to help me get better.”

And so, to use your terminology, if I were to enter the learning zone as a podcaster host, interviewer, what might be some activities I do other than just simply do one more episode?

Eduardo Briceño
Well, I have some ideas I can share but you know a whole lot about learning. So, tell me, what do you think you might do to get better?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think it’d be closely listening to some episodes and making some notes in terms of what I might have done differently. I think it could be closely observing some of the finest interviewers around to see what they’re doing. Ask for feedback and perspective from either coaches or masters of the craft, or listeners, it’s like, “Hey, Pete, I’ve heard you hundreds of times, and I have some thoughts.” But pete@awesomeatyourjob.com, lay them on me. Lay them on me, I’m listening. Thank you.

So, those are some things that leap to mind there.

Eduardo Briceño
Absolutely. Those are great ideas, and they are different than just doing episodes, and they don’t take a lot of time. And so, the great performers, whether athletes or others, they do watch their videos. Like, Beyonce watches videos of her performances after she performs, and identifies what to change and shares notes of that with her colleagues.

At ClearChoice Dental Systems, they do dental implants. They have video cameras in their consult rooms so that the people who work there, when they’re interacting with patients, after their consult, for the patients that agree to this, that agree to be recorded for this purpose, they can watch the videos afterwards and go to a particular part of the conversation that they were working on and watch themselves, and kind of think about what they can do differently and how what they tried work or didn’t work.

And one thing that they say that I love is that…sometimes when we receive feedback, feedback is amazing, feedback, I think is the most powerful learning-zone strategy in the workplace but, sometimes, especially for some people, when we receive feedback, we might reactive defensively and think, “This person doesn’t know what they’re talking about, or they didn’t really see what I saw,” but what they say is that video always tells the truth.

So, if you listen to your recording and reflect on it, and it doesn’t have to be the whole thing, it can be just how you started the recording, or how you end it, or a particular part of it, then that’s a fantastic way to think about, “Okay, like what can I do differently next time?” And one key thing, when we’re going about our work, is in order to improve, we have to change. Like, we can’t improve and not change.

So, if we do the same thing today than we did yesterday, we’re not going to get better, so we have to always be thinking about, “What is something that I can try differently?” And for that, like you said, we can observe experts, whether they are other podcasters, or we can read books, or listen to podcasts to get ideas, and identify, “Okay, what can I try differently?” and then feedbacking whatever form, like you said, is a fantastic, fantastic powerful strategy.

Pete Mockaitis
Another fun thing about that, the notion of that distinction there, is that when you’re new doing anything helps you get better, then you have to get precise. It seems like that’s analogous to what happens in physical training as well. It’s like when you’re out of shape, walking anywhere, lifting anything improves your fitness but then, at some point, that’s just not going to cut it.

Bringing the groceries from your trunk to the kitchen isn’t going do, and we need to get sort of more precise with a deliberate practice and learning in terms of, “I’m going to need to lift this level of weight this many times, in this kind of emotion in order to get an adaptation because the easy gains have already been grabbed.”

Eduardo Briceño
Absolutely. And there’s another benefit to that, which is that when we are kind of just doing and exploring an idea, an activity, and tinkering with it, just kind of doing it, we can play with it, we can try it out, we can see if we would enjoy it. And that is really important because it kind of doesn’t make sense to engage in deliberate practice and put a lot of effort into improving into something that we are not going to enjoy and that is not important to us.

So, early in our process, kind of trying an activity, playing with it, tinkering with it, is a way to improve but also it’s a way to explore whether it’s something we want to do and get better at.

Pete Mockaitis
So, I already love this stuff in terms of, “Yeah, ooh, what are some fun ways I could spend some more time in the learning zone? And what might I be doing while I’m there?” I suppose, fundamentally, in order for anyone to have any motivation whatsoever to spend some time in the learning zone, they have to believe that learning and growth is possible, and so you spend much time sharing the wisdom of the growth versus fixed mindset. For folks who are not as familiar with that, could you give us, like, the super quick crash course?

Eduardo Briceño
Yeah, absolutely. So, for those who have heard of the term growth mindset, I ask you to think about what it means to you. What do you think it means? Because when we ask what it means, even for people who have kind of been tinkering with it for a long time, people often say things, like, “It’s working hard or it’s persevering, or even is having a positive attitude, or is being open-minded.” And a growth mindset is none of those things.

A growth mindset is a perspective about the nature of human beings, specifically it’s the belief that people can change, that we can change and that other people can change, that our abilities or our qualities are malleable, that we can develop them. And the reason that’s important is that lots of research has shown that when we believe that we can change and that others can change, then we do the things that are necessary in the learning zone in order to improve, if we know how the learning zone works, which is another key component.

But if we don’t believe that we can change, then we’re never going to do anything to change, we won’t change, and we will confirm our fixed mindset. Similarly, if we believe that somebody else can’t change, we’re not going to share any information with them that they can learn from, so they won’t know to do anything, they won’t change, and that will create a self-fulfilling prophecy and confirm our starting belief.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, the opposite of a growth mindset is a fixed mindset, to believe that rather than things being changeable and growable, that, “Hey, you’re either good at this or you’re bad at this.” Like, “I’m just not a math person,” whatever. I’d love to get your perspective. Sometimes maybe I’m a little sleep-deprived, maybe a little stressed, and I’m interacting with something that’s tricky. I’m thinking like assembling furniture, and I get frustrated, and I feel like I’m stupid, or like I’m a loser, and I don’t like feeling that way.

And I know from all this stuff, like, “Oh, Pete, it sounds like you’re engaging in fixed mindset-type thinking, a type evaluation of this stuff,” and I’d rather not. I guess I’m curious, if we’re generally on board, like, “Yeah, growth mindset, that’s real. I generally believe that,” and yet we find ourselves drifting into thought patterns that sound more fixed mindset-y, any pro tips for how we can, I don’t know, install the growth mindset all the more deep down in our operating system so it’s alive and well and kicking and dominating?

Eduardo Briceño
So, the first thing is to acknowledge that we all experience a fixed mindset some of the time, just like you described, and a fixed mindset is part of being human. We see sometimes some abilities as fixed, or some people as fixed, and that is normal. And the really important thing to do is to notice it, like you are, and saying, “Oh, I am thinking that I can’t get better at this right now.”

And we might react with an emotional response right away, but we can observe it, let it kind of put a little bit of distance, pause a little bit, and think about, “Can I get better at this?” or, “Can I examine my mistake, to learn from my mistake?” or, “What different strategy can I use? What learning-zone strategy can I use to get better at this?”

And so, pausing, noticing our fixed mindset, and thinking about, “What can I do in the learning zone in order to improve if that’s something that I want to do?” It doesn’t mean that we should try to get better at everything. It means that whatever we do want to get better at, we can figure out what strategies are effective for that and engage in those strategies.

Pete Mockaitis
So, if I’m assembling furniture and it’s not going well, I can choose to be, like, “This is not an area, an endeavor of activity or skill that I am going to choose to really invest big in and master. I can just let that go, and that’s fine.” And, at the same time, if it’s like, “If I feel…” Well, maybe this is a broader question for all sorts of learning activities. When you’re in the midst of doing something that is hard and not going well, and you’re screwing up, and you’re frustrated, and you feel dumb, what should we do?

Eduardo Briceño
Well, say that you’re in the situation you described, that you’re trying to assemble furniture, you’re getting frustrated. You said you’re sleep-deprived, you’re tired. You can think about that maybe in the moment, if you can, maybe pause. But, at some point, when we reflect, we can think about, “First of all, what is most important to me? Why am I assembling furniture? Is that important to me? Like, is it that I want to have a beautiful home? Or, is it that I want to kind of update my couch? And why am I trying to do that? Am I trying to foster a feeling of kind of calm in my home? And how can I get better at that?”

So, sometimes what happens is that we get frustrated with mid-level goals or low-level goals, like assembling furniture, that might or might not be important to you. Sometimes we can quit at those things if that’s a better way to achieve a higher-level goal, like achieving calm, or achieving an uncluttered space, if that’s important to you.

Or, sometimes that might be the right way. It might be, “I can get better at assembling furniture, and that’s something that I want to do. It’s going to make me feel good.” But part of the answer might be, “Okay, I am sleep-deprived. Like, should I be changing my sleeping habits? Should I be going to bed earlier? Should I approach my mornings differently?” So, what is leading to my challenge right now rather than only focusing on the immediate challenge, thinking about, “What’s most important to me and what are different ways that I could get better at that most important goal?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, in so doing, you’re learning about something. You’re making some learnings and improvements on a thing that’s even more important and broader-reaching.

Eduardo Briceño
Yes, sometimes people associate growth mindset with grit or being persistent, which there’s definitely a close association, but it doesn’t mean that we need to be gritty around everything we’re doing. It means we want to be gritty and most growth-minded about the goals that we most care about, and so we need to identify what are those goals.

There’s something in psychology called the hierarchy of goals, which is like a pyramid. And at the top is what we care most about, and at the bottom is our low-level strategies around the things we do. And so, to go up the pyramid, we ask why we care. And to go down the pyramid, we ask how. And we want to be most gritty and most growth-minded about the highest-level goals because, then, our answer and how we get better at those things might be different than what we’re currently attempting.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool to get a broad perspective and not get too fixated on something that maybe doesn’t matter all that much. Okay. Well, when it comes to mistakes, you say these can really propel our growth, and you’ve categorized four kinds of mistakes. Could you lay these out for us?

Eduardo Briceño
Yeah. So, I think most of us have a sense that we can learn from mistakes but, first, most of us don’t realize how important mistakes are. So, when we are in our mid-20s, the way the neuroplasticity in our brain works changes. Before our 20s, our brain changes based on experience. We walk around the street, we observe things, and our brain is reconfiguring.

In our 20s, the brain doesn’t do that as much from then but the main way that we can drive our neuroplasticity and become smarter and more capable is actually by making mistakes, is by when the brain makes a prediction, and that prediction turns out to be wrong, that’s the main way that we can proactively elicit our own neuroplasticity. That’s how important mistakes are.

But, on the other hand, so mistakes are really important, but also, mistakes lower performance. Great performances are performances where we don’t make a lot of mistakes. Like, right now, you and I are having a conversation, it’s a conversation about learning so I’d be comfortable making mistakes but, in general, like we want to not say things that are not true and not make mistakes if we are performing for others, to try to add value to others.

And so, how do we reconcile that, that mistakes are valuable but, also, they lower performance? And so, I unpack four different kinds of mistakes. That’s what chapter five is about. And so, the first, there’s the stretch mistakes, which are the mistakes that we make when we are trying to do things we haven’t mastered yet, when we are in our learning zone. And those are mistakes that are super valuable, we want to be doing a lot of those mistakes. We want to elicit those mistakes, not by trying to do things incorrectly but by trying to do things that are challenging.

But we want to try those things when mistakes are not going to create a lot of damage. So, the second type of mistake is the high-stakes mistakes, which are the mistakes that would create a lot of damage. So, if we are driving a school bus, we don’t want to make a mistake. If we’re in charge of a nuclear plant, or if we’re packing a parachute, we want to do what we know works and minimize mistakes. And that’s when we’re in the high-stakes mistakes, we want to get into our performance zone and sometimes not worry about learning at all because the stakes are too high.

The third type of mistake is the sloppy mistakes, which are when we do things that we already know how to do, and we should’ve known better. And often when we make these mistakes, first of all, often they’re not that important or they might not be important at all, and I think these mistakes can bring kind of joy and humor to our lives. Like, if I spill a smoothie all over my shirt, and I’m home, I can either choose to get upset or I can laugh about it, and I can take a picture of it and send it to my family and friends, which is what I often do.

And so, I think mistakes can bring joy and humor to our lives, but sometimes sloppy mistakes do cause damage. And so, we can reflect on, “How can I avoid the sloppy mistake in the future?” And often, when we reflect on that, the answer is there are ways to foster more focus or to change our systems and tools in order to avoid those mistakes. I could change where in my desk I put the smoothie so that I don’t spill it, for example.

And the final kind of mistakes is the aha-moment mistake, which is when we do something as we intended but we then realize it was the wrong thing to do because we have an aha moment. So, for example, my wife might be upset about something, I might calm and try to console her, and problem-solve with her, and then I might learn that she didn’t want me to problem-solve. She just wanted me to empathize and to be there with her.

And so, I did what I meant to do but I realized it was the wrong thing to do. And aha-moment mistakes are precious. When they happen, we need to just learn from them, reflect on them, and extract their precious gifts, but we can’t proactively elicit aha-moment mistakes so much, although we can, by soliciting more feedback, but the stretch mistakes are really what we can proactively drive by doing things that are challenging and changing the way we do things.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s fun. And it is so true that the sloppy mistakes can bring joy and humor to our lives. In fact, I don’t think this Twitter exists anymore, which is a darn shame. But this theme exists, like, on Reddit and some places, that you had one job. And it’s just all about just ridiculous mistakes. Like, one of my favorites was the SpongeBob SquarePants episode description, like on Netflix or something, but they had this really dark murder mystery description, and then the caption is like, “Oh, I must’ve missed that SpongeBob episode.” And it just tickles me something special.

And, yes, that is fun, and we can celebrate that. And, particularly, I think that learning zone/performing zone distinction is so handy there in terms of, “Oh, yes, we’re learning now. and, boy, that is goofy and hilarious.” Well, you and I, we’re both friends and fans of Mawi Asgedom. Shoutout, episode number one. And I remember we were trying to name a company that we had started together by just combining words. And I think one of them was so just goofy, Dolphin Secrets, so I just made these memes out of that because it’s goofy, and that’s okay.

And I think, well, you lay it on me, is it fair to say that when we can laugh and be relaxed, and take joy and humor and lightheartedness about mistakes, will that actually help us learn faster and better?

Eduardo Briceño
Yeah, because we can observe them better, we can talk about them better, we can also avoid kind of getting triggered and having, like, a fear, an away-reaction from them. So, absolutely, in general, positive emotions help us learn. Like, sometimes, stress can be helpful, too, especially if it’s not chronic or like super high, but positive emotions can help us engage in the learning process.

And, at the end of the day, again, what is the highest goal? I think, for me, a highest goal is, like, happiness, fulfillment, and appreciation. I want to appreciate life. I want to enjoy life. So, not only is laughing about mistakes helping me learn, it’s also helping me enjoy life, which is even more important.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, anything else when it comes to learning that you want to help distinguish, clarify, myth-debunk, things that we should know when we’re in the learning zone to get the most out of it?

Eduardo Briceño
Well, there are a lot of things we could talk about. One is that sometimes we think about growth mindset or learning zone as something that is about the individual quality, is about us fostering the beliefs and the habits in our brain and in our bodies to be motivated and effective learners.

And there’s a lot of truth to that but we are social beings, and so we need to build cultures and teams and relationships where we can engage in the learning zone together because, at the end of the day, these beliefs about whether people can change are highly influenced by each other, by the people who are around me. What messages are they sending? What behaviors? Are they acting like lifelong learners or are they acting like know-it-alls? That affects my beliefs and it affects my habits.

And so, we need to kind of talk about these things with our colleagues, and think about, “Is the learning zone something that we’re doing well or not doing well? Can we get better? What do we want to work on?” and do it in collaboration because, at the end of the day, we learn a lot better in collaboration with others than on our own. More brains think better than one brain. We have different experiences, different skills, different tactics, different tools, different perspectives, we can see things from different angles, we can give and receive feedback.

And so, what I would encourage people to think about is what habits can you work on as you’re on your own, but also can you bring others into your process and build relationships that are going to lead to better learning and better performance.

Pete Mockaitis
Fantastic. And can you walk us through the growth propeller concept?

Eduardo Briceño
Sure. The growth propeller are the five elements that each of us can think about continuing to develop in order to become fantastic learners and performers. So, picture a propeller with three blades, and in the center of the propeller, the axis, there are two components: our identity and our purpose.

And in terms of our identity, sometimes in terms of a fixed mindset, we might see ourselves as fixed in a particular way, like, “I’m just a natural parent,” for example, “And that’s part of my identity,” “I’m a flawless athlete,” or, “I’m a natural athlete.” And that can get in the way of learning. But what we can do, and what’s most important around the identity, is to develop the identity of being a learner, being somebody who evolves over our lives, and it’s always continuing to change. So, once we can incorporate that into our identity, we’re a lot more effective as learners.

In terms of purpose, having a reason why we do things, why we care about improvement and performance, is really important because both learning and performing involve effort. And so, why are we going to spend that effort? Why do we care? So, developing that purpose as an individual and with our colleagues is something that is necessary in order for us to become great learners and performers.

The three blades are, one is our beliefs, the other ones are habits, and the other one is our community. So, in terms of beliefs, a really important belief that we’ve talked about is growth mindset versus fixed mindset. Another belief is transparency. We learn and perform a lot better when we make our thinking transparent to others because, then, they can give us feedback, they can learn from what we’re thinking.

And so, the fact that transparency is something we want more of, and we want to share more of ourselves, is something we can kind of think about. Also, agency, “To what extent do we have influence over our world rather than are we victims of the world?” is something else to think about in terms of beliefs.

In terms of habits, sometimes we think about growth mindset as something that is about learning from mistakes. So, when we make a mistake, “Do we learn from them?” That’s a very reactive or responsive habit. What I would encourage people to think about is, “Can you develop more proactive habits where changing is the default?” So, what are you doing every day in order to drive your own change and your own evolution?

And, for me, an example, a very simple example that is really powerful for me is, every morning, I remind myself of what it is that I’m working to improve, and that just primes the growth mindset. I am looking for opportunities to do that throughout the day, and it’s super powerful. And then, in terms of community, we need to build trust, we need to build a sense of belonging, and we need to work on collaboration rather than competition in order to both kind of learn and perform.

And so, the growth propeller is chapter seven, and it talks about those five components. And so, the part of the community blade is about the relationships we have with others. So, part two of the book, chapters eight through twelve, is about how we do that in our workplaces, how we build teams in organizations, that make learning the easy default.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, Eduardo, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Eduardo Briceño
Well, I would just mention I really appreciate your podcast, Pete, and just your focus on learning, the workplace, makes the world a better place. It’s awesome to be on the podcast a second time. So, thanks for all you do.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. And could you share now a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Eduardo Briceño
Yeah, the quote I have at the bottom of my email is, “The self is not something one finds. It’s something one creates,” by Thomas Szasz.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Eduardo Briceño
Sure. There are many. One is, there’s a meta-analysis from Harvard that looked at 62 research studies that looked into, “How much medical doctors improve in their patient outcomes the more years of experience they have in the profession?” And what they found is that, on average, medical doctors got worse over time. Their patient outcomes became worse because they were so busy in the performance zone, seeing patients, diagnosing, prescribing, and most of them, on average, don’t engage in the learning zone on a regular basis.

And so, as a result, they forget information that’s relevant to infrequent diagnoses, for example, and that decreases their performance. But, of course, there are some doctors that do get better over time. But this points to the difference between experience and expertise. Experience is something we just get by doing an activity a lot. And expertise is something that we build through the learning zone, and that can happen at any age.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Eduardo Briceño
Favorite book, Mindset by Carol Dweck really changed my life. The Art of Happiness by the Dalai Lama changed my life as well. I’m reading a wonderful book right now, it’s called The Clan of the Cave Bear, which is about prehistoric humans. It’s super interesting.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Eduardo Briceño
I love Roam Research. It’s a second-brain tool, whereas my knowledge management system tool, there’s a lot of other second-brain tools now. And I also love Otter. When I listen to podcasts, I download the MP3 and I upload it to Otter which transcribes it, and I listen to it through there. And what I love about that is that I can highlight kind of gems in the conversation. And after I listen to the episode, I can kind of do something with that. Either put it in my knowledge management system or send it to somebody else who would appreciate it, for example.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Eduardo, that is walking the talk. That is hardcore and I love it. Thank you. And a favorite habit?

Eduardo Briceño
Well, I mentioned one of reminding myself every morning of what I’m working to improve. Before that, the first thing that I do every day is my most treasured habit, and it is just expressing gratitude for the things that I deem most important, which is life, health, love, and peace. Noticing one of those things that are in my life and in the world just puts me in a great emotional state and makes me grateful to be alive and for what is.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that seems to really connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often, they retweet it, etc.?

Eduardo Briceño
If we fixate on performance, our performance suffers. That’s the performance paradox.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Eduardo Briceño
So, my monthly newsletter is on my website, which is at Briceño.com, my last name, dotcom. I’m also active on LinkedIn. And my book is called The Performance Paradox: Turning the Power of Mindset into Action. I worked really hard the last three years to write all the things that we talked about today. So, that’s another way to learn more about my work.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Eduardo Briceño
My challenge would be to, “Can you engage in the learning zone a little bit more with others? Could you start a conversation with your colleagues about whether you want to continue to progress in your learning zone habits together and what you want to work on next, that you can bring other people into collaboration with you to learn and perform and accelerate that over time together?”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Eduardo, this has been a treat. I wish you much good learning and performing.

Eduardo Briceño
Thank you so much, Pete. It’s been great to speak with you.

May 15
0

865: The Universal Principles of Successful People with Dave Crenshaw

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Dave Crenshaw says: "Fail early."

Dave Crenshaw shares valuable insights on how people succeed, gleaned from his guests on The Dave Crenshaw Success Project podcast.

You’ll Learn:

  1. One thing every professional should learn
  2. The trick to multiplying your career opportunities
  3. Why to take that risk now—not later

About Dave

Dave Crenshaw develops productive leaders in Fortune 500 companies, universities, and organizations of every size. He has appeared in Time magazine, USA Today, FastCompany, and the BBC News. His courses on LinkedIn Learning have been viewed tens of millions of times. His five books have been published in eight languages, the most popular of which is The Myth of Multitasking—a time management bestseller. As an author, speaker, and online instructor, Dave has transformed the lives and careers of hundreds of thousands around the world.

Resources Mentioned

Dave Crenshaw Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Dave, welcome back to the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Dave Crenshaw
Hey, Pete, I really appreciate it. It’s very generous of you to have me come back again. What is this, the third time?

Pete Mockaitis
I think so. I think third time is the charm, so the first two that we botched, we’ll, hopefully, redeem ourselves.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
So, Dave, I’m intrigued, you are up to a whole new project, and, in fact, your name is on it, and I hope it’s successful. It’s called The Dave Crenshaw Success Project, a podcast. And we talked about this back when you were just conceiving it, and it’s fun that it’s up and out in the world. So, I first wanted to hear a little bit of the story. You pursued this project not with the goal of advancing your empire as an expert, speaker, course creator, dude but something else. What’s the scoop here?

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah. Well, so those who aren’t familiar, I’ve written books and I’ve got courses, over 30 courses on LinkedIn Learning. I know you’ve got, gosh, a lot more than that and you’ve been very popular on that platform. And I do speaking as well, but what I wanted was something that inspired me and scratched the itch that wasn’t required by making a lot of money.

And I had a lot of different versions, and I think you and I had some conversations about different things that I could pursue but what really moved me, the thing that got me going was the idea that I want to create something for my kids. So, I have three children. My son is 17, I have a daughter who’s 13, and another daughter who is 10, my youngest, and I thought, “I want to leave a legacy to them. What could something that I can create to help them be successful but, at the same time, other people will benefit from?”

And that’s where this idea of The Success Project came from, and if I were to sum it up in a sentence, it’s that I am getting the stories of others, and you’re one of those people, we did an interview, to learn universal principles of balanced success. So, I know a lot of times in a podcast interview you bring someone on who has a book, they have a course, and you’re going to discuss that, and I think that’s great.

My goal is a little bit different. I bring someone on and I want to hear their story, and in their story, I want to figure out “What are the things that would make any person successful? And how can we apply that to ourselves? How can I apply that to my kids?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, hey, I’m all about universal principles, so, indeed, this is a great fit here. And so, I’m intrigued then, your kids, they also play a role in the production, I understand.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, the first and the most fun one is my daughter Darcy, who’s 10. She reads the outro. It’s the cutest thing you’ve ever heard in your life. It’s completely unfair for me to put that at the end because you are powerless to resist it. And my son, he does the editing, which is wonderful because now I can pay him as an editor, which helps him prepare for college.

But the fun thing that I’ve also started doing, I don’t think I had started this when you and I did the interview, Pete, is we’re doing bonus episodes where we’ll sit down and have a conversation about a principle that we learned. So, for instance, one person I interviewed was Tahani Aburaneh, and she was a refugee in Jordan, and she went from that situation to being a millionaire in real estate. And she talked about how gratitude was so essential for her success, and how her mom taught her to be grateful even when they were in these really, really difficult conditions in a refugee camp.

And so, I sat down with my kids and said, “Let’s talk about gratitude. Let’s talk about how we can be more grateful and some ways we can implement it.” So, I’ve got the regular episodes that we release where we’re hearing these stories, but then I’ve decided to have a little fun with some bonus episodes with my kids. And that’s sort of why I chose the title that I did because The Success Project is open-ended enough that it gives me a lot of latitude to try a lot of different things that will help the listener be successful and help my kids be successful.

Pete Mockaitis
Alrighty. Well, so lay it on us, Dave, what are some principles that have really already popped off the page? Let’s hear, how many interviews have you done, first of all?

Dave Crenshaw
I’m around the 20-interview mark. So, gosh, what do you have, 2,000?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, shucks, 860-ish.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, okay. So, I’m an infant learning to crawl at this point, but I’ve started to see some really interesting threads, and I’ll start with one that I did not expect at all but it makes sense when I say it, is the importance of studying business. It is amazing to me how many people I’ve interviewed who maybe do something that is different than business.

For example, Angie Ford is one person. She owns several music schools and daycares. She studied piano, that’s what she wanted to be, was a concert pianist but, for some reason, she was interested in business and got a minor in it. And because she did that, that enabled her to be successful as an entrepreneur. And I have seen that one thing repeated over and over, whether or not that was their primary interest, someone took the time to study the principles of business and accounting and marketing and sales.

And so, I’ve told my kids, and right now, it’s kind of funny. Right now, every single one of them wants to be a writer. I did not expect that either. And so, I tell them, “Hey, study whatever you want in college, but the one requirement that I’m going to make of you is that you have to at least minor in business.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, the business skills are handy in terms of there’s just a business side to everything. No matter what you’re doing, whether you’re a baker or doing music or daycare, there is a business side. And whether you’re the owner or somewhere lower within the hierarchy of things, having that understanding is common and handy.

Dave Crenshaw
Right. Even if you’re a middle manager in a Fortune 500 company, and you’re hired to do one specific thing, let’s say communications, understanding how the company operates, and understanding cashflow and the things that determine a stock price and all of these things, they make you more savvy and more able to understand and read the tea leaves, so to speak, about what is going to be coming in the future.

And I think that you don’t have to go to college to study it. I think that, I mean, certainly listening to this podcast, someone who’s made the commitment to do that, already that says a lot about their character and their desire to learn. I think that you could start reading books. I think that there are certainly courses on LinkedIn Learning that will help you learn these skills. I would carve out part of your schedule each week, each month, to give it some attention.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m curious about some of your favorite resources, like learning business. Business is quite an umbrella that… is it fair to say that you’re saying a general survey understanding of management, accounting, finance, marketing, strategy? Is that what you mean by learn business?

Dave Crenshaw
Correct, yeah. Whether you took that in college, whether you’re getting it on your own, you’re saying, “Hey, I want to get a good understanding.” I know one thing that’s been really helpful for me in my career is economics. I’m turning and looking at my shelf right now. I’ve got a couple of books about economics, one called Basic Economics.

And sometimes we’re always looking for the next new title that’s going to give us some cool principle, and that’s great. I built my career on books like that but I think there’s something to be said for digging down into the fundamentals. And I recommend taking the time to drill down on some of just the fundamentals because those will influence how you perceive things that are happening in your career.

Pete Mockaitis
I dig that. Is that Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell?

Dave Crenshaw
Yes, it is.

Pete Mockaitis
I have that book. It’s a little thick. I haven’t finished it but I loved one of his points, which was to evaluate policies not based upon their intentions, because they’re all good, all policies have good intentions, but rather upon the economic incentives that they create for the different players and stakeholders.

And that made a whole lot of sense when I read that, like, “Oh, yeah, I can see how sometimes, when things don’t quite work out,” I think rent control was an example he used. It’s really helpful to put yourself in the shoes of each of the players there, like, for example, the landlords and see, “Huh, given this legislation, what might they be more or less inclined to do because they’re going to be affected by these new set of rules?” And that was a big lightbulb for me, actually.

Dave Crenshaw
Yes. And see, that’s beautiful, and that says a lot about you, the fact that you would remember that principle from reading that book. And just understanding that, if you’re in a managerial situation, now you’re going to say, “Oh, if I change something, what’s the effect on the individuals that are following me?”

And that nugget of knowledge is so basic and it’s so fundamental but it’s so useful in the same way that water is useful to our physical survival. It’s a basic, it’s a fundamental, and we want to at least spend a little time consuming those things. My career, The Myth of Multitasking, a big influence that economics had for me was the idea of microeconomics and switching costs. That’s my love of economics, and learning it is what led me to help people with time management.

And someone listening to this might have that same experience with accounting, and they enjoy that concept of first in, first out, or whatever the principles are that they’re reading, and they can make that a part of being a bricklayer. That’s a terrible example, but they can make that, those principles a part of any career that they have.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and it can help you get an understanding of all sorts of mysteries. You mentioned brick laying, one of my great mysteries, Dave, is why home renovation professionals, whether the electricians or plumbers or masons or whomever, it seems like historically I’ve had a heck of a time finding someone who would actually show up and do things. And then when you do find a winner, you’re like, “Oh, my gosh, you are my plumber for life,” “You’re my electrician for life.”

But I think the principles of economics can help illustrate that. My leading theory right now is, “Hey, Pete, you are a small fry with a small job, and it takes me lots of time to get over to you and to the hardware store, etc. to get a small amount of revenue versus there are people with much bigger jobs, which take me the same amount of time and to get there and get the materials, and yet produce a whole lot more moolah for me and the team to take care of business.” That’s my current theory, at least.

But without an understanding of economics, I might just be…well, I guess I’m still frustrated because I don’t have a plumber or whatever showing up, but at least that demystifies that or inspire some ideas, like, “Huh, maybe I can work with a contractor and bundle a lot of stuff at once so I would be a more appealing customer in a world in which they could be pretty choosy when there’s not as many home renovations pros as there is a demand for their services.”

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, that’s a great example. And to kind of put a bow on this, I think what we want to do is say, “How does this apply to me?” I think the tendency of most people, and I’ve seen this in my coaching and training, the tendency of most people is to listen to new knowledge and say, “That doesn’t apply to me. Well, I’m going to ignore that part of what I just read because that doesn’t apply to me.”

The question we want to ask ourselves is, “How does this apply to me? How can I make this principle of accounting apply in my job in HR?” And if you just take the time to drill down and think about it and pause for a second, you’ll find applications.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool, and I like that taking the time to actively think. And when you’re drawing a blank, I’ll tell you what, I have been playing around a lot with this, with AI and ChatGPT. I did it a year ago and thought that was kind of some cool tricks, but now with the upgraded powers, it’s pretty cool. Like, that’s the kind of a prompt that can really spark some ideas going. It’s like, “Hey, I am in this business and I just learned this concept, how is this at all applicable to me? And then give me 10 ideas.” And then it does, it’s like, “Oh, okay.”

And then that’s what I found to be most useful for. Its final product, headlines, and teasers, and copy is inadequate in my opinion, but as a little brainstormer thought partner, I’m finding all kinds of fun little uses there.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, I love it.

Pete Mockaitis
And then that might be another subject associated with learning stuff that’s a principle, like learn business. We mentioned basic economics and basic principles of business. Are there any other resources that you found just absolutely killer?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, one common thread that I’ve seen so far in the interviews that I’ve done, I’ve seen this also with people that I’ve coached through the years, is taking advantage of bonus opportunities. And what I mean by that is…well, I’ll give you an example. So, I interviewed Kwame Christian. You know Kwame, right? Have you had him on your show?

Pete Mockaitis
Indeed.

Dave Crenshaw
So, one of the things that he mentioned was that he took advantage of debate club as he was going to school. And he participated in that, and that participation opened up his eyes to the idea of negotiation and how to have difficult conversations. And I’ve seen that several times where someone is, they’re going to school, they’re participating in something, and there’s this ancillary opportunity that isn’t really going to show up on a resume for a job application, and they go participate in it, and that participation leads them to something new.

And it goes back to that idea of people think there’s one path to success. The path is you pick a career, you go to school and study that career, you get your grades then you go and work somewhere. But the reality is it’s the little opportunities that you might take for granted, the things that are going to help you figure out what you really want to do, and they’re going to help you grow in your career.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And I believe you highlighted that as a theme in my interview when you had me in terms of, “Oh, that stuff you were doing in college, in high school, in terms of giving that speech. You’re like, ‘Oh, speaking is awesome. And it’s interesting that other people are terrified of this, and yet I’m super jazzed about it. Hmm, there’s a lesson there.’”

Dave Crenshaw
Yes, and it also highlights the idea that go where your strengths are. And I was just reviewing the interview that I had with Kwame, he said, “Go where your curiosity is.” And it’s not so much about your passion. Your passion can be useful but I was passionate about playing music and being a rock star, not necessarily a very usable career for me.

But I was curious about entrepreneurship, I was curious about time management. I would go to the extra lectures where I went to school, and listen to entrepreneurs talk about their experience. Those things that I was curious about are the things that became most influential in my career. So, someone listening to this, you can ask yourself, “What am I most interested in that maybe isn’t a part of my career at the moment? Am I giving myself opportunities to immerse myself in those things?” and do a little bit of it even if it’s outside of the everyday work that you do.

And when you do that, you’re opening your mind, you’re opening your time, you’re opening your opportunities to probably what is going to lead to the most success in your career.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really cool. And something that’s come up in my podcast a number of times is folks to actually look back at what you were super interested in when you were younger can have some real clues for you. Like, before you were obligated, mandated, directed, desperate for cash, any number of pressures entered your world, what was just kind of interesting to you that you were curious about, that you dug into.

And you may very well not become a professional baseball player or a rock star or a magician, kind of whatever that might’ve been, but there’s something under the surface there in terms of, “Oh, with the magic tricks, it was delighting an audience,” or with rock roll, it’s kind of learning a thing and just getting immersed, or a sense of mastery, and sort of see just kind of “What’s the thing underneath the thing if you’re not going to be a pro sports guy or a rock and roll person?”

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, what are the principles, what did I gain from this experience? And whether or not you’re in that career, what you learned in it will help you the most. That’s something I see with my wife who is a high school swim coach. And the reality is most of the kids that she coaches won’t be swimming past high school. Most aren’t even going to get a college scholarship. So, what are the moments within that extracurricular activity that give them an opportunity to grow and learn life skills about hard work, and persistence, and working with team members?

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. That’s good. I’d also love to hear you, Dave, tell me, did you see any conventional wisdom get skewered along the way in terms of maybe there are some tropes or standard-issue truth, wisdom, guidance, that is bellied about that your guests have actually revealed, “No, actually, it turns out that’s wrong, and here’s a better way”?

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, that’s a really interesting question, Pete, and I’m going to tread delicately here with it.

Pete Mockaitis
Can’t wait.

Dave Crenshaw
But I think it’s important to be said that I think there is a concept out there that having a family holds you back, that your kids are going to slow you down and keep you from being successful if you choose to have kids. Or, even, “I need to wait later in my life to get married because marriage to my spouse is going to hold me back.”

And I have found that in both of those cases, the opposite is true. Let’s talk about children for just a second. Or, even if you choose to be a caretaker of someone else. What that does is it enforces limitations in your day. First, just setting aside all the wonderful benefits of being a parent, which there are, just from a structural standpoint in your career, it forces you to not work crazy hours.

And if you love your children, you’re going to want to say, “How can I spend time with them? And if I have to spend time with them, that means that I won’t be able to wake up at 6:00 o’clock in the morning and work all the way to 9:00 p.m. I’m going to have to find breaks.” And that relationship creates a boundary that forces you to figure out how to be more productive.

It’s really sloppy productivity to allow yourself to work long hours. You’re just masking a bunch of inefficiencies in your day when you allow yourself to work those hours. But if you say, “I’m not going to go past 5:00 p.m.” and I call this principle the finish line. You define what your finish line is in the day, “I’m not going to cross that.” Well, if you have to stop working by 5:00 p.m. because your kids are going to be coming home, you’re going to have to figure out, “How can I get everything done?”

And if you have to figure that out, now I got to say, “How can I do a better job at delegation? How can I do a better job of automation? How can I do a better job of focusing on what’s most valuable?” So, that’s one of the first themes that I’ve heard come up several times. And the other one is the value of a great partner.

And, however you structure that partnership with another human being, whether that’s through marriage or just through a long-term committed relationship, the idea is that person creates a ground and a balance to what you’re doing. And, of course, this is assuming you’ve made a great choice, or at least a good choice, but having that person in your life creates stability, creates confidence, and you can divide the labor between the two of you in a way that’s useful, and that will help you grow in your career.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And I’ve also heard stories that once folks become aware, “Oh, we’re pregnant. Baby is on the way,” suddenly, the motivation…

Dave Crenshaw
Oh, that’s my story.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, the motivation, the seriousness really gets kicked up a notch, it’s like, “Okay, no, for real, I’m going to make this thing work.”

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah. When I give my speeches about The Myth of Multitasking, that’s one of the first things that I bring up. The two words that changed everything in my life, and changed my career, were, “I’m pregnant.” And when I heard those, I thought, “My gosh, I need to start getting more focused, and there’s this life coming in this world,” and that caused me to make that transition from maybe just pursuing my passion to pursuing a passion that was profitable. And that led me to returning to my work as a business coach and preparing how to be an author. That story still colors everything I do to this day.

Pete Mockaitis
So, we’ve covered some things that are great to do. What are some things you really recommend that we not do?

Dave Crenshaw
Yes, I would say don’t be afraid to fail. A lot of people are so concerned that something isn’t going to work out, that they stop from making any kind of attempt. And I would say do not allow that to prevent you from taking risks. And, especially, don’t allow yourself to say, “In the future, at some point, I’m going to take this risk.”

The earlier you take that risk, the less costly it will be. So, if you’re listening to this right now and you’re just starting your career, and you’re not married, and you’re just coming out of college, whatever, now is the best time to take that sort of risk, so don’t hold back. And even if you say, “Well, I’m married and I’m a little bit further down my career,” now is a better time to take that risk than five years from now, or ten. Fail early.

And that will create more opportunities. And if you fail, great, but you can recover from it. And I wasn’t afraid to fail early in my career, and I did, and it took a while to recover from it, but that was also an opportunity to learn and to grow. And that is often just as, if not more educational than an official college degree.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s a really cool perspective there, to take the risk earlier gives you more opportunities to recover, or to pivot, or to take advantage of the things that you’ve learned, the relationships you’ve built, the discoveries that you’ve made, as opposed to if you wait ten years, or however long, you will just have less time to pivot, sort it out, make good things from the pieces and the ashes that have emerged from that failure. That’s really cool.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, I know someone who just began their journey as an entrepreneur and owning their own business, and that’s great that they’re pursuing it, but the sad thing is they’re on the downward side of middle age, and for 30 or more years, he’s always wanted to own his own business. That’s a long time to hold on to that regret. Whereas, if he pursued it earlier, either he would have succeeded or he would not have that anymore, and say, “You know what, I took a try at that, I don’t have to think about it anymore.”

It’s funny, that’s part of the narrative that my wife and I have around my attempting to be a rock star. I had a band, I wrote songs, and sang keys, and I was doing that in my mid to late 20s. Now I can look back and say, “Wow, I’m glad I’m not doing that anymore. That was crazy.” And we’ll go somewhere and I’ll see a band setting up or something, and I’m, “Oh, my gosh, I’m so glad I’m not doing that.”

But if I had never done it, where would I be right now? “Oh, I could’ve done it.” I’m like Uncle Rico in Napoleon Dynamite talking about how I could throw the football over those mountains. Give it a shot. Even if you do it part time in conjunction with the job that you’ve got, give it a try now and then you can confidently move on with your life, or something amazing will happen because of your hard work and because of the risks that you took.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s cool, to get a real sense of what is the reality associated with this dream. And I think folks have found it really does go both ways in terms of, “Hmm, professional music or being a lawyer or whatever, is just the coolest or is, wow, not for me. Good to know early and reorient from there.”

Dave Crenshaw
Indeed, yeah. That’s it, do it now. Give it a try now and you’ve still got time to learn from it and to do something else if it doesn’t work out.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Dave, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, one thing that I really thought about and, as you mentioned at the beginning, you’ve done 800 episodes, another principle and a pattern of success is consistency over years, and I’ve seen this in my work with entrepreneurs. They’ll get started, they’ll start a business, they’ll go for a year, maybe two, and then they start getting bored, and they start doing something else.

And sometimes, well, you’ve seen this, Pete, let’s just talk about podcasting for a second. You go online, and how many podcasts do you see listed that have one to three episodes, right? There are 8 million podcasts but how many of them really go beyond the first five or so episodes? Not most. Most are less than that. And it illustrates the idea that when we start something, we’ve got to stick at it for a while. We got to keep going at it for a while.

And I’ve seen this with my own career, for instance, my courses with LinkedIn Learning. I started out in 2011 when it was Lynda.com, and it was my first course. There’s so much value in being a part of that and having a partnership with someone, like in my case, LinkedIn Learning, and your case as well, for 12 years. When you’re in the pipeline that long, more people have an opportunity to learn about you.

And if you think about something that you’re passionate about, I’m talking to the listener now, if you think about something you’re passionate about and you want to pursue, make a commitment to do it for a good long while. And just the principle of longevity and consistently doing it will lead to paying off. I like to say that impatience is the enemy of success. And the reason why it’s the enemy of success is it causes us to pull up roots too early.

And I use pulling up roots because I’m thinking of, like, a farming metaphor. We plant the seeds, we put water on them, and then we go away for a little bit, and then maybe we come back a little bit later, and we look at it, and go, “Oh, well, it hasn’t grown anything.” A lot of people in that situation go, “Well, this was terrible. I’m not doing this anymore,” and they just rip everything up, when we’ve got to give it time, we’ve got to keep nurturing it, we’ve got to keep feeding it, and then, after a while, you’ll start to see the fruits of your labor.

So, I recognize that what you’ve accomplished, Pete, in your podcast, a lot of it is talent, a lot of it is the hard work, but a lot of it, too, is just the fact that you have just kept at it for 800 episodes.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it’s true. Things do pay off with consistency over time. Not always. Sometimes it’s like, “Hey, entrepreneur, that concept just isn’t hitting the mark for people.” And so, I think it’s a matter of saying…

Dave Crenshaw
But you’ve got to give it enough time to really figure that out.

Pete Mockaitis
Exactly. And so, I think about it from a hypothesis-driven thinking in terms of, “Okay, what do we need to learn? What are testing?” And I think, “Hmm, I’m kind of bored. I want to do something else,” is not a great reason as opposed to… I think about my failed businesses, it’s like, “Hmm, not a single person ever bought this thing. It seems they don’t actually want it after all.” So, then you could just say, “Well, maybe let’s pivot, adjust the offer.” Or if there’s no good adjustments to be made, it’s like, “Okay. Well, it’s time to say goodbye and move on and collect the learnings.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, and I’m aware of the paradox of what we just talked about because, just before this, we were talking about failing and failing early. And now I’m saying, “Keep at it for a good long while.” So, the question is, “How can you tell the difference between the two?” If you don’t mind, Pete, I’m going to turn that on you for a second. How do you personally tell the difference between when you’ve failed and when you just need to stay consistent?

Pete Mockaitis
I think it’s really a matter of looking at the evidence and, ideally, thinking about sort of tests, experiments, hypotheses, like, “What would need to be true for this thing to be successful?” and to see if there are some indicators. Like, I think in this business world, if it’s like, “Hey, you know what, we have successfully gotten 20 clients who are just love, love, love what we’re doing here, but we haven’t quite managed to get to a breakeven positive cashflow point.”

Well, I think that says you got something. I would not walk away from that lightly or if you’re bored. I would say, “Well, let’s figure out what are the remaining challenges we have to solve, and then solve them,” versus, “We’ve tried a dozen different marketing channels and not a single person has opted to part with their money for this thing we thought was so cool. Maybe this thing isn’t really resonating.”

And then you might choose to say, “Exit entirely,” or say, “Well, maybe it needs to be tweaked to make it more appealing, or maybe there’s a different segment that would really be into it. Maybe we were trying to go broad but, at the end of the day, this is really going to appeal to roofers, and we’d go all in on roofers,” or kind of whatever the segment is. So, I guess that’s how I would think about distinguishing it, is, “What evidence and signals have we collected to indicate this thing could be a winner versus not?”

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, I completely agree with what you said. And so, if I were to put my own spin on it, I would say break it into milestones. So, it’s so easy when we engage in an experiment to think only long term, “Five years from now, this is where I’m going to be and I’m going to cash out of my business and own a private island.”

But the real question is, “What is the experiment of this month? What’s the milestone that we’re trying to accomplish this month? Were we successful in accomplishing that? Was I able to get this many customers because I was able to get this many people to listen?” whatever it is. And then you move from that milestone to the next one that’s maybe a little bit bigger.

So, you want to create a pattern of success but also set the milestones of success at more realistic and reasonable things in the beginning, so then you just go from success to success, bigger and bigger, as you go along. Or, you have a string of months where you’re not hitting any of the milestones and you stop, and say, “Okay, maybe there’s something wrong with this experiment that I’m engaging in.”

Pete Mockaitis
That sounds good. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, my favorite one, and someone who really inspires me is Bob Ross. And I know Bob Ross has almost become a meme these days but the reality is, as an educator and his ability to reach people, he had a gift that not many people possess. So, as someone who teaches people, I look at the way he does it.

Obviously, my personality is not quite the same but his love, his passion inspires me. And so, one of my favorite quotes, and I got a big custom poster made, it’s framed on my wall, and the quote is, “Every time you devote time to practice, you haven’t lost. You’re always a winner.” And if I’m reinterpreting that phrase, I’m saying, “Everything that you do is practice. Everything that you attempt is useful. Even if you fail, if you can learn from it, then you didn’t fail at all. You’re still winning.”

And, boy, Pete, do I refer back to this mentally when I engage in those experiments that don’t work out.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Dave Crenshaw
I’ll answer this in an indirect way, probably not what you’re expecting. But as a coach and as an educator, I’m a big believer in the experiment of one. And what I mean by that is sometimes we’ll read a study, and it will say, “Seventy percent of people found that taking a break at work makes them more productive, it makes them more effective.” And that’s something that I teach. But what I want to, instead, say is don’t rely on the experiment of others because you might be in the 30%.

Don’t take my word for it. Try it yourself. Give yourself time to try something that you’ve heard for the first time, and experiment it. I like two-week experiments. Really give it a try for two weeks, and then, at the end of that, assess, “What did your experiment of one give you? Did it work for you? Are there any adjustments that you’d make?” Then, that way, and you keep referring back to it, now you’re becoming the scientist of your own life rather than depending on other people to tell you what you should do based on some study.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Dave Crenshaw
Actually, I’m going to mention something that is really off the beaten path but something I’m passionate about, and it’s Hustle 2.0 has a series of books. And I would encourage anyone to look it up. Hustle 2.0 is a program that teaches people who are incarcerated, how to turn their lives around.

And so, the books, they’ve got three of them, teach people who have been through trauma, and teach people who have been through some really rough life experiences, how to overcome it, how to be stronger on the other side. And the curriculum is written by people who have been incarcerated. And the reason why this is top of mind is I just recently went to the Utah State Correctional Facility and met a lot of people who have used this book, and I’ve read it, and I’ve even talked about it with my kids.

And it’s so powerful to see how a book written by someone who has been in that situation can completely change their lives. So, yeah, it’s a hard one to get but you can find it at Hustle20.com.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Dave Crenshaw
Everyone likes to ask me, “This is a time management guy, what’s your favorite tool?” And my favorite tool is the one that everybody already has, they just don’t use it properly, and that’s your calendar. I just use that for everything. Even if I’m scheduling time to take time off, I’m scheduling everything in the calendar and I’d wager to guess that everyone listening to this could do a little bit better job of using their calendar to help them be productive.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Dave Crenshaw
I’ll share one that I didn’t do for a long time. I’ve done a much better job recently of taking care of my physical health. And if we’re talking about the podcast, too, one of the things that I want to do is interview people who have balanced success. And I’ve learned through the wrong way that not being healthy ruins everything.

It doesn’t matter what you’ve accomplished in your career, in your life, if you’re feeling physically miserable. It’s not much of a success at all. So, I’ve done a much better job of the habit of exercising regularly. I try to do it at least five times a week with both cardio and some lifting. And, boy, it’s made everything a lot better for me.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key quote you’re famous for, Dave?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, one that pops to the top of my mind is “Whenever you say yes to one thing, you’re saying no to something else.”

Pete Mockaitis
That sounds like an opportunity cost.

Dave Crenshaw
There you go, exactly. There’s that economics influencing things. And it works in a microeconomic situation, a nano economic situation. When you’re making choices in your day to say yes to something, something has to give. It’s always a tradeoff. So, say yes to the most valuable things, and say no to things that are less valuable.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dave Crenshaw
The easiest place is DaveCrenshaw.com. Crenshaw is C-R-E-N-S-H-A-W. And you can find my podcast there, you can subscribe to it there, all sorts of stuff. And, of course, if you’re on LinkedIn, please look me up and follow me on LinkedIn as well.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, it didn’t come up during our conversation, or I had mentioned it just briefly, be grateful. That’s another principle of people who are successful. Every day, look for something that’s going well, and express gratitude for it. And what that will do is it will make you more open to the things that make you happy, and make everything you do for work more enriching and rewarding.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Dave, this has been a treat. I wish you much fun and success with your Success Project.

Dave Crenshaw
Thank you very much, Pete. Really generous of you to have me on. Thank you.

May 11
0

864: How to Design a Career Portfolio that Beats Burnout, Navigates Disruption, and Future-Proofs Your Career with Christina Wallace

By | Podcasts | No Comments

 

Christina Wallace discusses the benefits of having a diverse work portfolio that will help you weather any storm.

You’ll Learn:

  1. How to diversify your work
  2. How to lessen friction and hit your flow
  3. The three questions that surface your hidden needs 

About Christina 

Christina Wallace is a human Venn diagram with a career at the intersection of business, technology and the arts. A writer, podcaster, serial entrepreneur, and erstwhile theater producer, Christina spent a decade building businesses in New York City. She is currently a Senior Lecturer at Harvard Business School, an active startup mentor, and angel investor. Christina holds undergraduate degrees in mathematics and theater studies from Emory University and an MBA from Harvard. In her free time she likes to sing in choirs, climb mountains, and run marathons (slowly). She lives in Cambridge with her husband and their two energetic children. 

Resources Mentioned

Christina Wallace Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis

Christina, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Christina Wallace

Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Pete Mockaitis

I’m excited, too. We’re talking about The Portfolio Life: How to Future-Proof Your Career, Avoid Burnout, and Build a Life Bigger than Your Business Card. That sounds pretty cool.

Christina Wallace

It’s a lot of promise, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, but no pressure, Christina, but we’re going to hold you to every one of these. Could you kick us off by sharing any really surprising, fascinating, counterintuitive discoveries you’ve made while doing the research and putting together this book?

Christina Wallace

So, one of my favorite little tidbits from this, I am someone who is not great at taking time off. Like many type A overachievers, I sort of aspire to be the sort of person who rests, who relaxes. I’m not great at it. And a little part of me has always been, like, slightly, you know, felt some superiority over that, like I work so hard.

And part of the research, when I got into some operations management and some research into sabbaticals and all of this, it was a little bit humbling, where it points out just how important rest and planned downtime is for not just productivity but for happiness, for the ability to not burn out. It seems fairly obvious, you got to have some time to recharge.

But I found some really fantastic research, particularly borrowing from the world in operations management of manufacturing, where the top-performing manufacturing lines only ever schedule 85% of their capacity. They always leave downtime for planned maintenance, for do-overs, for surges. They don’t start from the point of 100%, and then say, “Well, we’ll just do 110% if we have to.”

And I thought that was a good reminder with some great science behind it of why this notion of, like, “Hey, let’s have everyone give 110% all the time” is not realistic. And that’s why we are all in a constant state of burnout.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, Christina, that’s intriguing right there, and you’re bringing me back to fond memories of one time I had a consulting project at one of the world’s largest cookie factories. All day long you could smell that chocolate in the air.

Christina Wallace

Oh, man.

Pete Mockaitis

And so, 85% is a top-performing manufacturing line. I’m curious, what do we know about top-performing humans? So, some sabbatical is good, some vacation is good, some rest is good. Do we know – there’s probably a range based on different temperaments, etc. – what’s optimal for us?

Christina Wallace

Certainly, there’s an expectation of having some downtime every day, every week. You have to have it as part of your practice but I found some research from The Sabbatical Project, DJ DiDonna, one of my colleagues here at HBS has done, that really emphasizes the value of taking a meaningful sabbatical every, call it, ten years or so. And by meaningful, they mean really in the realm of, like, three to six months off, taking a significant intentional break where you have a moment to step back, reflect, and really consider, “What do I want to do for the next chapter?”

And sometimes people come back feeling refreshed and renewed energy to keep doing what they were doing. And sometimes people come back, and say, “Okay, I actually needed that space to realize I want to go off in a different direction or I want to make a major life choice.” But I thought there was an interesting reflection of sort of six months every ten years. Like, that doesn’t seem unreasonable to have, call it three or four sabbaticals over the course of your career. That’s not that much time off.

And, yet, without the intentionality behind it, ten years pops up, and you’re like, “Oh, I can’t take six months off. That feels impossible.” So, it was a nice reminder that with a little bit of planning and strategy, these breaks are absolutely doable.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And so then, that’s on the sabbatical side of things. I’m curious in terms of a workweek side of things. I’ve seen some studies that suggest a certain number of hours. After that, you’re actually negatively productive. What have you found there?

Christina Wallace

Yes. So, what’s interesting about a portfolio approach is that there’s some research that shows being able to toggle between different activities, different types of working, different types of thinking and interacting, like, collectively helps actually recharge, renew the way that you are working, the energy that you bring to the table.

And so, it’s not sort of just additive. It’s not saying, obviously, there’s research that says 10, 12, 14 hours, at a certain point, there’s diminishing returns if you’re doing the same thing hour after hour. But if you are complementing, say, a day job with a moonlighting gig, a side hustle, or a serious hobby, or something you really love that works a completely different part of you and that offers you a different way of thinking, and of creating, and of interacting, that doesn’t feel like you just pulled a 12- or a 14-hour day. It can actually help you feel rejuvenated.

So, I don’t want you to work 20 hours a day between your side hustle and your day job. There is a breaking point but I think this notion of your total load across your portfolio is a lot more flexible than you might think, depending on what’s in your portfolio.

Pete Mockaitis

And when you talk about a different type of work, sometimes it’s like how we define different is really kind of fluid. Because, in some ways, it’s like, well, I’ve got two companies. One is in the world of training and people development, and the other is in the world of outsourcing and media production. And so, in some ways, it’s saying, because we’re dealing with words and thinking about words and making words good.

Christina Wallace

Sure. And you’re still writing emails and trying to make the numbers balanced, and maybe making a slide or two. Like, I can see how that could feel like the very same work but managing a different project. When I think about maybe a different ways of working, I think about some of the folks in my book where one person, by day, is a teacher, and then her moonlighting project is writing novels for middle grade readers.

And so, by day, she was dealing with 4th graders, and their sticky hands, and how to teach them math, and how to teach them emotional maturity, and all of these things. And then, by night, she’s inventing these stories and sort of just going deep into this continuous creativity in these worlds that she’s building. That’s a very different way. Like, one allows her to recharge after she’s been giving and giving and giving all day long to her students.

So, you’re absolutely right, that really can come down to, like, “What is that mix? And do they complement each other? Or, are you just doing the same thing but in a different context?”

Pete Mockaitis

And when it comes to recharging-ness, is there a means by which you recommend people reflect, or assess, or gauge that?

Christina Wallace

So, one of the tactics that I recommend for putting together your portfolio is an assessment of two things. One is what do you need to be your best self? And everyone’s needs are going to be a little different. Your needs are going to be a little different depending on the chapter or season of life you’re in but you will likely have some combination of financial needs, growth needs, community needs. There could be other elements of security that you have needs, that need to be met.

And then, in addition to your needs, you’re going to have a set of wants, or, as I like to call them, your wishes. What are the big things that you care about doing, seeing, experiencing, leaving behind by the end of your life? We’re talking this could be minor, “I want to run a marathon.” These could be major, “I want to, I don’t know, walk on the moon,” so whatever. Putting together this kind of list of wishes for your life.

And as you’re assembling your portfolio, you want to be thoughtful of, like, “Are the different things that I do over the course of my day, or my week, or my month, collectively, are my needs being met?” We got to start there, “Are my needs being met?” If you’re doing two or three or four things that all maybe make you money, but they’re all solo projects, you have no colleagues, you’re not being given this community or this opportunity to just have conversations with other humans, you’re over-indexing on one need and your under-indexing on another.

And so, as you think about recharging and rebalancing, it’s, like, “Am I getting my needs met across my day, my week? And am I having a good balance across these things?” The wishes piece is relevant, too, “Am I doing all of this work and all of it only goes toward one or two or a handful of things that I care about? Or, do I have a nice breadth across what I’m doing that maybe this thing gets me closer to this professional goal, and that work gets me closer to this crazy artistic goal that maybe I even felt weird about writing down because it seems so out of this world but I kind of really do want to do before I die?”

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And I imagine it’s a common experience for people to not even be aware that they have a need of a particular flavor or stripe. Any suggestions on how to surface those?

Christina Wallace

I think part of this is the reflection or the delving into stories, into your past experiences, and having that opportunity to say, like, “When have I been my best self? And when have I haven’t? Like, what are those moments where I found myself crying at work or doing less than I thought I could or should be able to?” I’ll give you an example, one of my needs is an office with a door that closes.

I do not do well in open office plans. And I have so many examples of working in startups and other organizations where I loved the work, I was a good fit for my role, I had great relationships, everything felt like it should be clicking, but I was in an open office plan where I couldn’t focus. I have high sensitivity to sounds. I couldn’t focus. I was always being interrupted. I couldn’t get into a flow, ever. And that friction wore at me every day to the point where I couldn’t do what I was there to do.

So, I made that on my checklist, of like, “When I’m at my best is when I’m able to shut the door and be able to focus.” And so, in some ways, if you’re just starting out, you might not have a good sense of your needs yet, and that’s okay. But if you’ve been at this a while, or if you have that opportunity to look back and reflect, whether it’s in school or in your jobs, where are you at your best? And where did you find sort of constant friction that you’re like, “Ugh, it doesn’t have to be this way”? That’s a great place to start to surface your needs.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, Christina, now I’m thinking about the notion of friction and some philosophies saying, “Well, hey, if it doesn’t kill you, it makes you stronger. And if you can endure that, you’re going to grow and get tougher. And we’ve got it so easy in the 21st century with all of our luxuries and conveniences and comforts, and maybe we need a little friction to toughen us up.” What do you think about this perspective, Christina?

Christina Wallace

So, I hear you, a little bit of friction, not necessarily a bad thing but here’s maybe my counterpoint to that. Many of us, I might argue all of us, are what I would call weirdly shaped puzzle pieces. We all have a different set of skills, and communication styles, and interests, and personality quirks, and all of these things that we bring to the table when we show up over the course of our lives. And there are rooms that have a space that is shaped like your puzzle piece, and then there are rooms that don’t.

And if you try to shove your strangely shaped puzzle piece into what is a nice, square, neat opening, maybe it’s the last piece we’re waiting to put in this puzzle, and you don’t fit, if you try to shove yourself in there, you’re going to have to carve off a meaningful amount of yourself in order to even approximate what they’re looking for.

And I think there are lots of folks who feel this on a daily basis, whether it’s code switching, or whether it’s just the adjustments they make to who they are in order to feel acceptable on a team, at a company. And you realize that, on any given day, it’s not that big of a deal, but every day for years on end, you’re literally using some percentage of your energy, your mental capacity just to show up and be able to do your job, which leaves so much less to do the job itself.

And I think one of the biggest learnings I had through my 20s was that I would rather find the rooms that wanted what I had to offer than try to squeeze myself into a box that didn’t fit me, or into a hole in the puzzle that didn’t fit me. And part of that work was really uncovering what the shape of my puzzle piece was, what do I show with, what do I have to offer, and why is that actually awesome. And so, the people who do want me really do want me.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And I’m thinking right now just about an experience I had recently. So, nowadays, with three young kiddos, I find I’m spending most of my mornings hanging out with them, watching them, taking care of things.

Christina Wallace

How old are they?

Pete Mockaitis

They are five, four, and six months.

Christina Wallace

I’ve got a three and a one-year-old.

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah. And then some things happen in terms of travel where I have the opportunity to just wake up and start doing some work at 7:00 a.m., and it felt absolutely amazing. It’s like, “Wow, I didn’t even know.” I thought, “Oh, I guess I used to do this a lot. I don’t think I even remembered that that was a thing I did that worked really well for me, and I have been not doing that, and I miss it.”

And so, in a way that’s kind of tricky, it’s like, “Well, what’s to be done?” There’s probably some clever things to happen there but I guess, Christina, where you’re nudging me here is one response to that internally is, “Oh, hey, man, that’s just the stage of life we’re in, you know. We got to take care of the kids in the morning. That’s where it’s at.”

But I’m thinking, with your puzzle piece analogy, perhaps you might advocate it’s worth putting some serious thought and effort into thinking, “Is there an arrangement by which this creative morning, productive, energized groove can be deployed in that direction because it’s worthwhile to do so?”

Christina Wallace
Yeah, I think your example is perfect on two dimensions. One is you get to see sort of the difference between what is it like to have that friction versus just to hit your flow. And I think, from like a metaphorically standpoint, that’s exactly the difference between being in a room that wants you and being in a room that doesn’t.

Or, a version of you, if you would, like, soften these things and change that thing, and don’t use too many exclamation points in your emails. But in the same way, I think that’s a perfect example of, you are at a stage of life where your mornings, for the most part, look a certain way. And so, the question is, “Is there an opportunity to either create a version of this that gives you that creative morning, maybe some sort of an arrangement with your partner, or figuring out how you set up your morning differently?”

And if you were working at a company or somewhere else where you had a manager or a boss, there might be a situation where you say, like, “Hey, can I adjust my hours? Can I think about maybe working from home in the mornings so I can get the kids out, and then I can have a couple of hours before I have to sit in traffic, or a couple of days from home?” Like, there’s a way to be thoughtful about, “How can I construct the context of how I do my work to maybe lower some of that friction and give me that opportunity to hit flow better?”

So, I am now a professor. For this stage of my life with young children, this is what fit me better than running a startup. And, as part of what I need, I have the same morning experience, getting my kids out the door, off to daycare, all these things. I can’t teach before 9:30, like it just doesn’t work, and I’m in the position to say that, and to proactively design my day to fit the needs that I have for this stage.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Thank you. All right. Well, we just jumped into a lot of specific things because you kept fascinating me, Christina. And now, maybe I’ll zoom out a little bit. So, this book The Portfolio Life seems like we’ve got some taste for what it’s about. But could you articulate the core big idea or thesis here for us?

Christina Wallace

Sure. So, this idea, everyone is likely familiar with a portfolio from a financial standpoint, you build your financial portfolio with a mix allocation across stocks, bonds, real estate, whatever these assets are that fits the stage of life you’re in, that matches the risks and the returns that you need. And then, as your life changes, you rebalance that portfolio to rematch what you need at that stage. And this is taking that exact approach but applying it to not just your career but your life. I think career is a huge part of many of our lives but it is in the context of your life.

And so, what does that look like? It means that you are assembling work, hobbies, relationships, family time, community time, rest, you’re designing an allocation of your time across these different pieces in a way that meets your needs and moves you forward toward your goals. And what that can look like is several sources of income. It can look like a meaningful sort of hobby or growth opportunity, a project, something you want to learn more about, that you’re going to dive into, that then sets you up for your next professional zigzag.

It could mean keeping your hands in a lot of different buckets, a lot of different communities and networks, you say, “Well, I came from this world, I’m now in this world, I care a lot about that world, and I’m going to stay connected to all of them.” And the reason I advocate for this approach, one, it actually matches much better the full sort of three-dimensional version of who you are as a person. Very few people, from the day they’re born to the day they die, say, “You know, I really am, and I only am, a marketing manager in a pharmaceutical company. Like, that’s who I am. That’s it.” Like, we all have these different aspects.

And so, it’s a way to reflect on and mimic this three-dimensional version of you rather than having your identity be formed by your job. But, secondly, it sets you up with diversification and flexibility to better weather this constant state of disruption that we are now in. This world, whether it is bank collapses, or ecological disasters, or technological advancements, like AI that are going to massively change the face of white-collar work in the next five years. Whatever these things are, they’re coming at us, lifechanging disruptions every three, five, seven years. This is a pace of change the previous generations never had to deal with.

And so, thinking about your career and your life through a portfolio that helps you diversify and build some flexibility against that disruption is truly the only way you’re going to navigate this without having the rug pulled out from under you, like many folks have had in the last few months.

Pete Mockaitis

So, can you share with us perhaps a story that brings that to bear? Like, “Ooh, here’s someone who did not have a portfolio, and, uh-oh, look how that went down,” versus someone who did, and, “Oh, what a softer landing and what it provided for them.”

Christina Wallace

Sure. I have a great example of this. Heading into the pandemic, I come from an artistic background. I went to a boarding school for the arts, I trained as a classical musician, and I majored in theater among other things, and so I know a lot of folks in the arts. And I used a lot of case studies in the book of folks that have a creative pursuit as part of their portfolio.

Going into the pandemic, I have a lot of friends who were actors, directors, designers on Broadway who went from being gainfully employed at the top of their industry to having, literally, no income for two years while live performances were shut down. And many of them had sort of a backup job as a waiter or a bartender. That’s how a lot of actors make their work between gigs but a lot of those jobs got shut down, too. So, there were a huge number of artists in New York who just, literally, had no income for up to two years, minus whatever unemployment checks they were able to collect. And it was devastating. Many of them are still digging out from under that.

But I have one friend, Carla Stickler, who, in addition to being an actress, she was the understudy for Elphaba in Wicked for many, many years, a fantastic Broadway actress, in addition to that, she started learning to code. Many years ago, she took a bootcamp through the Flatiron School. She wasn’t really sure what she wanted to do with it but it interested her, and she decided to learn more.

And so, between gigs, backstage, when she wasn’t in a scene, she was working on code, building projects, writing apps. And when the pandemic came, she’s like, “Well, I didn’t think I was ready to leave Broadway, but I think Broadway is ready to leave me, so it’s time to pivot.” And she took her coding resume, and went out and got a job as an engineer at a startup, and was able to seamlessly move into the world of tech startups, and has a thriving career now as an engineer in Chicago, and was able to navigate that unexpected disruption so much better than her peers.

And what I think is fascinating about Carla, I’m sort of giving away the ending here, but it’s not like she walked away from performing altogether. She kept teaching a little bit. She had a private voice studio. She stayed in touch with folks. And when Broadway came back, this is right around the time that, like, the Omicron surged, it became problematic, they reopened, they started performing again, and then there was this big variant that took out, it was devastating.

It took out a lot of performers really quickly, and Broadway started going through their list of understudies, and backup understudies, and swings, and backup, backup swings. And they got to the point where they needed an Elphaba, they had no one else to perform. They, literally, called Carla in Chicago, she got on a plane to New York, had one rehearsal, and went on stage, painted green, flying 40 feet over the stage, singing, literally, the hardest role on Broadway. And then she got off stage and, two days later, went back to her coding job in Chicago.

So, I think that is a great example of how you can have a mix of skills and interests and networks that maybe you’re not monetizing just yet but can position you to have optionality and flexibility when the time comes.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Cool. And so, as we think about this design process, you mentioned doing reflection associated with seeing when have you been at your best and when have you been at your worst. Are there any other ways to help surface that which is going to help keep us feeling alive and flourishing as well as surfacing cool opportunities to get after those things?

Christina Wallace

So, one of my favorite tools, I developed this short list of questions after my first startup failed. I had built this company, we had raised the money, we thought it was going to be amazing, spoiler, it was not. And I had this moment of complete and total sort of paralyzation. I was like, “I don’t know who I am. I don’t know what I have to offer. I don’t know why anyone would want to hire me,” and tried to be reflective, tried to journal and figure out what I brought to the table, and I was coming up with a blank piece of paper.

And so, I went out and had coffee, a lot of coffee, with basically everyone in my network. I did, like, 70 coffee chats in 30 days. That was overkill. You don’t have to do that many. But I went out and asked the folks who had known me the longest and some who’ve actually only known me a few months. I asked them three questions.

Number one, “When have you seen me happiest?” Number two, “What do you come to me for? Like, what is that moment where you go, ‘Oh, I should see what Christina thinks about this.’?” And then, number three, “Where do I stand out against my peers?” Because one of the things that I recognize was there might be, like, a superpower that I bring that is easy for me and so I don’t even realize how valuable it is elsewhere.

And having those same three questions kind of across all these conversations helped pull out some themes that really gave me an insight into where I should go next. And then, once I had something more specific of, like, “I’m looking for this type of a role, in this type of an industry, with this type of a job title or an opportunity,” then my network could surface those opportunities because I was being really specific.

I wasn’t saying, like, “Hey, do you know anyone who’s hiring?” I was like, “Do you know anyone who’s hiring a general manager role for a company, not based in New York, that wants to expand to New York, and who’s at a seed or series A stage of financing in the startup world?” Like, super specific. And I landed that job in a couple of days.

So, part of this is, like, you can do some self-reflection, and there are great exercises in the book to do that but you can also go and ask the people who know you what they see when they look at you. And you might be surprised that some parts of you that you don’t even realize are that exciting or valuable really stand out to other people.

Pete Mockaitis

And could you share with us a couple things you heard when you had these 70 conversations that surprised you, like, “Huh, how about that?”

Christina Wallace

So, one of the interesting things when I asked them when they had seen me happiest, the consensus was when I was in charge of my own calendar, meaning I’m not afraid of working hard. I work hard. I work a lot. But I want to do it on my own terms. And for a while, I had been at a consulting firm for one of these big national consulting, international consulting firms. And in client services, you jump when the client says jump, and I didn’t have control over my calendar, and I wasn’t able to slot in the things I cared about or show up for the people that I wanted to show up for. And it really made me miserable.

So, I came out of that realizing, like, “Okay, me and client services, like not a good fit. What do they come to me for?” They come to me to help find the story. So, whether it’s their resume, or it’s a product they want to launch, or it’s just connecting the dots of, like, “I did this thing and that thing and the other thing,” and I’m like, “I don’t see how they connect but I’m sure they do.” I can give them the language. I can help them find the story and frame it in such a way. It’s sort of a communication skill.

And then, “Where do I stand out against my peers?” I thrive in moments of uncertainty. I’m really good at the zero to two stage of company-building, or a project generation, or launching a play, whatever that thing is. Going from an idea to a thing, and getting other people excited by it, onboard with it, and all driving in the same direction, is where I excel.

I’m less great at the 10- to 100-stage, where you’re optimizing something that already exists. And so, I thought that was really helpful to be, like, “You know what, I should stay in early-stage startups or in creative projects, like producing theater, where going from nothing to something is what’s on the table.

Pete Mockaitis

Cool. All right. That’s very clear. And I could see how, in your world, it’s just like, well, yes, it’s kind of, “Isn’t everybody good with that?” how strings can be hidden in that kind of a way. Okay. Well, then can you share, so that’s sort of the insight, personal, wisdom gathering there. And then what are your top tips in terms of surfacing cool opportunities and things to put into your portfolio?

Christina Wallace

A lot of this comes down to your network. There’s some great research I referenced in the book that a lot of the opportunities don’t come from the people you know but the people they know, second-generation networks. And part of helping that one level-removed network surface things that might be interesting requires you to be really specific on what you’re looking for.

And so, that is sort of a two-pronged approach. One part is having the language to talk about who you are, what you’re looking for, and how someone might be able to help you. That was what I needed after I did all these coffee chats, coming up with the specific asks. And then the second thing was keeping in touch with those networks so they know that you’re looking for help, that you want something to surface up.

And this can be a challenge if you sit in multiple worlds, as I do, I have built a career at the intersection of business, technology, and the arts. Those are somewhat overlapping but, in many ways, distinct communities. To stay connected to them takes effort, it takes relationship-building over time not just sort of networking where I show up with a business card and throw it in everyone’s hands. But doing that allows me to stay top of mind, and having a very clear ask allows them to surface things that might be really interesting.

Because a lot of what people love, can get excited about, is really these opportunistic things rather than the, “What’s your five-year plan?” The five-year plan thing hardly worked for our parents. I don’t think it can work for any of us because there are so much that is changing and there are so much that’s unknown. So, having much more of an emergent strategy rather than a deliberate strategy is what’s going to be effective here. And to do that, you have to stay connected.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, Christina, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and  hear about some of your favorite things?

Christina Wallace

I think that’s it.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Could you tell us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Christina Wallace

Madeleine Albright, “There is a special place in hell for women who don’t help other women.”

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Christina Wallace

Clay Christensen and his team, when they were writing The Innovator’s DNA, interviewed and studied hundreds of the most creative innovative people, and they identified these five traits that make up the DNA, that make up kind of how these people worked. And at the core of these five traits, the backbone that the other four sort of rotate around, like the double helix of DNA, is the power of associating.

That’s the ability to connect seemingly unconnected ideas, or networks, or industries. That is what made people the most innovative. So, it doesn’t require you to have a net new idea, a cutting-edge technology. It often can come from just being connected and translating something you’ve seen in one world into another.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite book?

Christina Wallace

Oh, man, I think it’s probably an upcoming book. I can still call it a favorite because I got to read an advanced copy. It’s called The Anxious Achiever by Morra Aarons-Mele.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, Morra. She’s on the show.

Christina Wallace

Yeah, it is just I feel like it was written for me and, like, all of my friends.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite tool?

Christina Wallace

Trello. I live and die by Trello. I’ve probably been using this Trello board for, like, 12 years.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And a favorite habit?

Christina Wallace

Putting my phone away an hour before I go to bed.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Christina Wallace

Honestly, it comes from one of the pieces of my book, “There’s no such thing as a left-brained or a right-brained person.” This is fake science that was misinterpreted from a real study back in the 1960s. And so, this notion that we are one or the other, logical or creative, it’s not true. You are both.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Christina Wallace

PortfolioLife.com or you can follow me on LinkedIn or Instagram.

Pete Mockaitis

And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Christina Wallace

Honestly, I would go and talk to your boss, talk to your manager about the thing that you want to try, or learn more about, or explore this year that has nothing to do with your current job description, and see if there’s a way to get a stretch assignment, or a rotation, or a zigzag promotion that allows you to sort of expand that portfolio even in the context of your day job.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Christina, this has been a treat. I wish you much luck and fun in your portfolio.

Christina Wallace

Thank you so much.

Apr 06
0

854: Mastering Your Surprise Career Super Power: Notetaking with Anh Dao Pham

By | Podcasts | 3 Comments

 

Anh Dao Pham shares pro tips on developing the most underrated skill that makes a world of difference: note-taking.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Why note-taking is a powerful differentiator
  2. The four-hour investment that ends up saving hundreds of hours
  3. How to synthesize your notes for maximum impact

About Anh

Anh Dao Pham, VP of Product & Program Management at Edmunds.com, has successfully led technical projects for two decades at start-ups and major corporations. In her book Glue: How Project Leaders Create Cohesive, Engaged, High-Performing Teams, Anh vividly brings compassionate, positive, nimble leadership to life, demonstrating with actionable guidance, the power of caring and connection to inspire outstanding results.

Anh lives with her husband and two children in Los Angeles, California.

Resources Mentioned

Anh Dao Pham Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Anh, welcome back to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Anh Dao Pham
Thank you so much for having me back, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to chat, and I think this may be the shortest follow-up interview we’ve ever had with a guest because you teased note-taking. I asked, listeners said, “Yes, yes, yes” numerous times, so we’re back, we’re talking note-taking, and I’m excited.

Anh Dao Pham
I’m excited, too. I’m always thrilled when people tell me they’re excited about note-taking because I always feel like I’m such a geek when I talk about it, but it is such an important skill so I’m so delighted that some of your listeners were interested in this topic, and I’m hoping that we give them what they want.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, me, too. And I thought we might start with, I know you use jingles to celebrate and commemorate things, any recent jingles that have tickled you and/or your teammates?

Anh Dao Pham
I haven’t written a jingle recently but I did write a very short “Roses are red, violets are blue” for you here.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, boy.

Anh Dao Pham
Just two, just so that…a couple here. First,

“Roses are red, violets are blue
Hello there, Pete,
I’m happy to see you.”

I thought it was nice for us to be together again, so thank you for that. And then the second for your note-taking crew,

“Roses are red, violets are blue
note-taking is awesome
And so are you.”

So, hopefully, everybody gets excited at this point about note-taking.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. And heartwarming. All right. Okay, Anh, you mentioned in the last conversation that note-taking is your superpower. Can you tell us what’s super about it and why should professionals spend time working on this skill?

Anh Dao Pham
Well, note-taking has a ton of advantages. I feel like it’s one of the most underrated skills that we just don’t ever think about investing in. And, for me, it’s been so important to my career that I’d call it the cornerstone of my career. It’s like that one skill that, whenever I talk to people, I say, “You really have to think about note-taking,” and they’re always like, “Yeah, yeah, Anh, that sounds great but I may be not that interested.” But, to me, there’s really a few different benefits.

The first is people’s perception of you, and this is something that I don’t think people think about, but if you’ve, in particular, been in any sort of leadership position where you’re facilitating a meeting or having a discussion with people, and they see you taking notes and you’re typing, and you type slowly, their perception of you is not that you’re necessarily the smartest person.

And this is something that I feel like goes unspoken, but if you watch somebody typing, and they’re like pecking at the keyboard, you might perceive that they’re not as intelligent as they actually are. And that’s, I don’t think, an accurate representation in any way but it does affect people’s perception, in particular, if you’re facilitating a meeting and you’re taking notes slowly, and you’re slowing down the entire meeting.

Their perception of you is not that great. And so, I think mastering good note-taking is important just to make sure that people have a certain amount of respect for you when you’re doing your job if you’re taking notes.

The second is, at least for me, note-taking has been something that’s really made my learning process efficient. So, one of the things that I do, I do religiously in all of my meetings, is take notes. Whether or not I’m going to publish them or not, I take notes. And, for me, it just crystallizes my learning on things so it’s a part of my learning process.

And I started taking notes when I was in college. I was a math major and I was pretty lazy in summary cards. You don’t think of mathematicians as lazy but we kind of are. We’re looking for the most efficient way to do things, or maybe we’re advocates of efficiency is a better way to put it. But I was also a very slow reader. I just couldn’t go through textbooks. And anytime I was studying for a course and you had to read multiple chapters in the textbook, I just couldn’t get through that material.

And I had stumbled upon an article about note-taking, and they said, basically, if you take notes in some sort of structured format, then it improves your recall ability dramatically. And so, what I did was I just started taking notes in outline format, which is like a really traditional way to do it, in all of my lectures, and it was so effective when I was in college that I actually stopped buying the textbooks, like I didn’t read them.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, there you go.

Anh Dao Pham
Yeah, I went to lectures, I took good notes, and then I reviewed the notes, and most of the time, the professors would cover the material that was needed from the textbook in their lectures. And so, if I took good notes, I didn’t actually need to purchase the textbook anymore. So, after a couple of quarters, I just stopped altogether, so it saved me a ton of money, and I did well in those courses. I did pretty well.

I was at UCLA, and I got a pretty decent GPA coming out of college. So, it was really, really effective for me and has, to this day, been one of the reasons why people often compliment me on my memory. They’re always like, “You have such a great memory.” It’s like, “No, actually, I just spend a lot of time processing the information through note-taking, and that crystallizes my learning in a way that I feel like other people who were not participating as much, will have that as an advantage.”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And in your book Glue, on the chapter about note-taking, you mentioned that when you are consistently taking notes and sending them out, you’re really effectively cementing the impression of being a subject matter expert to those that you’re sending the notes to. Can you tell us about that?

Anh Dao Pham
That’s right. Absolutely. I see note-taking as a way to actually get informal power, and so I tell people that information is power. And when you capture information and you send it out and distribute it, you start to become seen as a subject matter expert on the information that you’re putting out there. There’s a misconception that you capture information and some people will capture information and hoard it as a source of power, but to me it’s actually the opposite.

If you think about, let’s say, reputable newspapers or content sites, the reason that people see them as an expert is because they put their content out there. And then when people think of a topic or a question, they know where to go for that information, and note-taking happens in the same way. So, if you’re the person who consistently is taking notes and then sending them out, and they’re good notes, then the people will start to see you as that person who knew this information, publishes information, and a place that they can go to get the information.

And that shifts the dynamic from somebody who’s just sort of a bystander in a meeting to somebody who actually holds information and is somebody who has a certain amount of power and influence in the situation.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now my brain is going to Bob Cialdini who endorsed your book. Kudos.

Anh Dao Pham
He’s amazing.

Pete Mockaitis
He’s one of my favorites. We were delighted to have him on the show when we finally got him. So, anyways, I’m thinking about the tools or principles of influence – reciprocity. I’m just thinking about how many times folks have been able to miss meetings either because they just want to save some time, or they really had some other obligations going on, and they were able to look to your notes to really save the day.

And so, I’m thinking, over your career, you’ve done that for many people many times, and I would hope that that gives you a little bit of sway when it’s time for you to ask for some help or some favors or some assistance.

Anh Dao Pham
Yeah, I would agree with that a hundred percent. The principle of reciprocity, I cannot even say that word, reciprocity is another thing that I talk about in the book, and also think a lot about in my career. And the interesting thing about that principle is that it’s not about giving something to get in that specific moment. It’s about establishing a pattern of giving and giving that benefit to other people so that at the time that you go to them at a later date, they actually are able to reciprocate and to provide something back to you because they’ve had that good feeling from you if you’re giving them something.

And I get this all the time, “Oh, I miss the meeting. Thank you so much for the recap. I was able to catch up.” In fact, oftentimes, the notes are way more efficient than being in the meeting. In particular, if you don’t need to be an active participant in the meeting to have the discussion but you need to understand what the outcome is, the notes are tremendously helpful.

I’ve had times before where, as an example most recently, one of our legal team members was asked a question, and he was searching through all of his documentation for anything about a particular discussion, and he said, “The most helpful information I found was actually from this recap that Anh took.” And I went back and looked at the notes, I was like, “I don’t remember this discussion at all. I’m so glad that we wrote it all down.”

And office settings often, in particular when you’re moving very fast, there isn’t a lot of things, there aren’t a lot of people who actually document things. And so, when you start doing that, it becomes often the system of record for whatever the discussion was that happened, and it helps all the people thereafter, either in the moment because they missed it, in some sort of a reminder capacity, like, “I can’t remember exactly what we talked about. I remember we covered this at some point.” Or, even very much later, like through this legal inquiry, some indicator of what was actually discussed and why we did it.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s beautiful. Well, shifting gears now into the how, you mentioned that in some ways, just your sheer typing speed is foundational. Can you speak to that?

Anh Dao Pham
Yes, typing speed is extremely important. Actually, out there, there are studies that talk about note-taking and how taking notes with a pen and pencil is actually more effective in terms of your ability to remember things. I actually believe that that’s kind of bunk but there are studies about that. I think the active, actually, taking information and then participating in it, that actually crystallizes things.

If you’re in an office setting, I would argue that typing is the equivalent of doing that pen and paper activity as long as you’re actually participating. But in order to be able to participate, you can’t be slowed down by your own skill to capture the information, so typing speed is extremely important. And I always tell people, if I notice them not typing as fast as I think that they can, to spend some time investing in themselves in that typing speed.

We always have people complain about how they don’t have enough time in their day, and if you spend a lot of time actually responding to emails or reading things or writing memos, this is a place where you can actually improve your efficiency significantly, and it doesn’t actually take that much investment. When I actually started typing, I was in high school, actually my transition from high school to college, and I attempted to go and get a job at a temp agency.

And at the time, I think I was around 18 or so. I got tested for my typing speed, and I came in at something like 40 words per minute. I’d never actually put in a concerted effort to improve my typing speed. And the people who were helping with the hiring said frankly to me, “Hey, this is just not going to cut it. Nobody is going to hire you for a temp position if you don’t get this typing speed up.”

And at the time I went home, and I happen to find a really old spiral-bound typing speed book that my mom had used when she was younger. And I picked it up, and I did a handful of drills, and I think I spent maybe three or four hours or so just doing a handful of drills. And then a couple days later, I went back and took the test again, and my typing speed was up to 60 words per minute.

So, it wasn’t actually that big of an investment. And if you think, if you currently type 45 words per minute and you can increase your typing speed to 60 words per minute, that’s like a pretty significant improvement in your efficiency, and it doesn’t take that much to invest in yourself to get that typing speed up. So, I feel like everybody should take a moment to do that if they haven’t already.

It’s funny, because when I say this or when people read the book, they’re like, “I went and tested myself, like right after I read that chapter.” And they’re always reporting their typing speed to me, I was like, “Great. Great. Do that.”

Pete Mockaitis
“Thank you.” You’ve seen a lot of these unsolicited reports. Well, you’re bringing some fond memories back. I remember I found a transcriptionist and he was so gung-ho. I think it was in one of those contractor platforms, like Fiverr or Upwork or something, and he said, “I’ve already started on it, and you can see.” And then he showed the Google Document which he was transcribing quickly, I was like, “Okay, there you go. That’s impressive.”

As well as he had a video in his portfolio, he was like, “Look at me on TypeRacer.com,” which is a website I’ve been to, to see, “Sure enough, you can type very fast.” And that’s impressive, and not just when you’re hiring a transcriptionist but for any number of roles. And I think there was an episode of “The Apprentice” back in the day.

I think maybe Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, why I remember this, maybe because it left an impression. He was typing so slowly, I was shocked.

Anh Dao Pham
And didn’t it affect your perception of him?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it did, and I already knew, like he’s a fraudster criminal, and it made it worse, and he can’t type fast. So, it makes an impression. I just want to mention, so right now, AI is so hot right now, and the ability for automated transcription to occur. What are your thoughts on that? Does that make it less important to be able to type quickly?

Anh Dao Pham
No, I think that, at the end of the day, typing is a way of processing information, so it depends on what you’re trying to use it for. Like, as an example, if you’re going to transcribe a podcast and you’re putting it out there because you want the content out there, then I think there’s absolutely no harm in doing some sort of automated transcription. You’re not actually trying to learn the material or do something with it. You’re just trying to make it available.

But, for me, the main reason I like to do note-taking or that I practice it religiously is because it does help me learn. And so, if you’re taking advantage of a tool to do that work for you, you actually lose out on the benefit of processing the information. When I think about typing and taking notes, the reason that it helps improve your memory is that you’re processing information multiple ways.

So, let’s say you’re in a meeting and you’re taking good notes, you’re listening to the information that’s coming in, and then you’re participating in the meeting, so, obviously, you’re likely there because you have some role to play. So, you’re participating in having some discussion, that’s like two ways, “I’m listening. I’m talking.” That’s another way to process the information.

And then if I actually write it down, I’m processing it a third way. So, all in the span of a one-hour meeting, I’ve now triple-processed the information. And it’s not just about writing the information down, but if you actually take the time to reorganize the information or write it in your own words, then you’re processing it another time. So, you’re like taking in the information and then outputting it in a way that is in your own words so that you can confirm that understanding.

So, all in that span of time, if you’re using your fast note-taking abilities and processing all this information, that information is going to get crystallized in your brain in a way that other people who are just listening or just speaking and not taking in all those different activities at the same time are not going to have to their advantage. So, that’s why you’ll come out of the meeting and learn this information so much more quickly.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, let’s say we have invested just a few hours in our typing speed, and it’s gone way up. Cool. Tremendous return on investment there. So, then let’s zoom in. We’re in an actual meeting, we’ve got our laptop, and our fast typing skills. I’m wondering if folks, right from the get-go, are thinking, “Is this even appropriate for me to whip out the laptop and be clanking away? Is this something that’s going to be distracting, annoying? Is this just more for junior people?” Can you talk to us about any resistance folks might have in the moment?

Anh Dao Pham
It’s really funny because I used to work in a startup called Opower, and at the time, I was the first person there who was a program manager. I was director of program management, and I was in charge of hiring other people for my team. And when I put out the job description, we put out an exercise. And in the exercise, it was just a handful of questions that the job applicants had to answer in advance. And one of the questions I’d put on there was, “How fast do you type?”

And the funniest thing about that question was it was the most controversial and telling question on the pre-application. Some people would write back, and the answers were so funny.

Pete Mockaitis
“It shouldn’t matter how fast I type.”

Anh Dao Pham
Exactly. Like, we did. We actually got responses like that, like, “This is not an admin job” was one of the responses, or, “I’m a hunt and pecker,” which was so funny to respond that way, but people were actually offended about this question, that they felt like it was beneath them. And, to me, that’s really telling when it’s like you should have the humility to do this work if it needs to be done on your project. So, if you’re thinking you’re above that, in any job, in anything that makes you better at your job, you should be willing and want to do.

And so, I feel like if there’s an ego there about it, you’re just shooting yourself on the foot by not taking advantage of this particular skill or this opportunity to do that. But I do see resistance because there is a certain amount of ego with it. Now, I would say, though, that most of the time the ego is coupled with a lack of skill. So, it’s like, “Why would you push back on it if you could do it?” It just seems like an odd combination. So, we do see some of that resistance.

Now, in the scope of actual meetings, and I come from a project management background but now I also do product management work, and I’m on the executive team, and I still go into meetings and take notes. And you would think, like, “Hey, as Anh moves up in her career, she’s going to do this less.” It’s like, no, actually, I’m not because, again, I think it becomes a very valuable resource, it’s important for my learning process, and people really appreciate it. So, why wouldn’t I continue to do that?

And people have come to know that I do this. They will rely on this skill, sometimes maybe too much, but they’ll rely on this skill, and this is something they can count on with me if they’re not able to attend a meeting, it’s like, “Hey, are you attending? Could you share your notes with me?” That’s like a huge benefit for them and it’s something that I think I’m always going to do.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s good. And no one has ever said, “Hey, cut it out,” or looked annoyed, like, “Ugh, your keyboard noise is such a distraction and annoying us, Anh.”

Anh Dao Pham
No, actually. And I do have long nails so I do clank a little bit on the keyboard. Now, if I’m in a meeting or on a Zoom or something, and you can hear the clanking, then I’ll mute myself so that it doesn’t happen. The only thing I would say is if you’re maybe on a one-on-one situation, and you’re sitting there, staring at your computer while you’re taking notes, or you’re concentrating so much on that, that’s not a great situation.

Some of those smaller form meetings, you might want to pay more attention to the conversation, or you might at least give a prerequisite or preamble before you actually start taking notes, like, “Hey, I’m going to be taking notes, but the reason I’m taking notes is because I’m listening to you so intently, and I want to make sure that I’m capturing this information.”

So, you can give that up front so that people know that that’s important to you for the purposes of this meeting. I’ve actually participated in interviews with companies before where the interviewer, it was just me and him, and he said, “Hey, this is a part of my process, so just know when I’m staring intently into the camera, I’m taking notes and it’s not you. It’s because I’m really trying to listen and make sure that I captured everything.”

So, I think you can phrase it in such a way, with whoever you’re meeting with, to let them know that this is an important part of the process, and that’s why you’re doing it, and that should cut out any hesitation for you taking on that task.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we got the typing speed up, hesitations are behind us, we’re in the moment, what do we actually do?

Anh Dao Pham
So, there’s a couple phases in the book I break this down on note-taking. In the very beginning of a project, oftentimes, you’ll start a project and not actually know what’s going on. And so, if you’re in a meeting and you’re trying to facilitate and you’re trying to take notes, sometimes that’s very difficult. And so, I call this phase the fake-it-till-you-make-it phase.

And the idea here is you’re listening intently, you’re asking questions when you don’t understand things, but you’re trying not to slow down the discussion or the meeting. And so, one thing you can do is if there are things that you really need clarification on, you can sort of jot them down. Sometimes I’ll create my own private note section, like, “Note to myself: Ask about this later because I don’t want to slow this down.”

But in the span of the meeting, what you want to do is try to capture the most salient points, the most important things, and there’s really only a couple of categories. One is, “What are the key decisions that are being made?” And then, two is, “Are there any sort of follow-up items or action items? And who’s going to be responsible for those?”

And in a meeting where you don’t exactly know what’s going on, and sometimes maybe they’re even using jargon that you don’t fully understand, the most important thing is to write down accurately what is being stated. And if you’re unsure, you can always prompt somebody, like, “Hey, I heard this word. It sounds like a decision was made. Is that true? If so, can somebody just restate the decision for clarity?”

And when you do that, it actually helps the meeting because, oftentimes, people will say, “Okay, great.” They’ll have a discussion and they’ll seem to have come to some sort of consensus, and then they’ll move on, but nobody actually stated the decision at the very end. And sometimes when you do that, and prompt, like, “Hey, I heard a decision or I think we made a decision. Can somebody state that?” It will actually clarify that maybe something was missed or maybe somebody had a slightly different understanding of the decision, so you’re actually helping the process by asking that question.

And then once it gets stated in a clear enough way, you can say, “Okay, so I heard this is the decision,” state the decision, and then write it down. So, you’re sort of capturing the most important things. And that, to me, is sort of the fake-it-till-you-make-it stage. And if there is jargon that is being used in that state where you don’t fully understand what they’re saying, you just make sure to repeat back, “This is what I heard you say. Is that right?” And then write that down in the way that they said it.

It’s not as important in this phase that you understand the notes as it is that the people who are in the meeting understand the notes and what’s next. And so, there you just want to capture exactly what they said, and a note to yourself to learn and understand it later. And then you can follow up with the person, ask those questions to make sure that you fully understand what you’re sending out. Don’t send out things that you don’t understand. Capture them and then make sure you understand them before you send it out because that’s how you’re going to get the benefit, ultimately.

So, that, to me, is like really the first phase. And then, over time, what you want to do is sort of graduate to a more, I’d say, mature note-taking phase where you’re then sort of going through the process, participating in the meeting, and then taking notes but organizing the information as you’re going along. And when we talk about note-taking, people ask me all the time, like, “Well, what’s the secret?” I was like, “Well, I don’t just take notes. I’m actually participating and then I’m summarizing the information in my own words.” And there’s a lot of benefits to that.

The first is really that when people speak, it doesn’t always make for good notes. If you capture everything verbatim, there’s uhms and ahhs, there’s pauses, there’s twists and turns, they might repeat themselves five times. It doesn’t make sense for you to write everything that everybody is saying. What you want to do is capture what the point of that discussion was. So, take a moment to sort of rephrase it for yourself in the most concise way, and then type that down.

And then, as you’re going through the meeting, you’re participating. And if you have read my book Glue, there’s actually two chapters next to each other. It’s the note-taking chapter, and then the next chapter is about synthesis. And I think, when you’re doing really successful note-taking or good note-taking, you’re actually practicing both skills at the same time. And so, note-taking is sort of the act of writing down the information and organizing it, but how do you actually organize the information? And there’s a few different ways to do it, through different techniques of synthesis.

And the simplest way of synthesis is to actually just try to sequence things. So, if somebody’s describing a process or a plan to do something, you’re kind of like sitting there and trying to write these things down in order. So, as people are talking through it, it’s like, “Okay, we needed to do step one.” “Okay, great. I captured that.” Then, suddenly, they’re talking about step two, and then it’s like, “Oh, well, actually, there’s something that needs to happen before that.” So, then you sort of reorganize that information and sequence it in a way.

Think of it as like I talk to my mom about recipes that she cooks for Vietnamese food, and sometimes she gives those steps in all different orders. Like, she doesn’t have anything written down because a lot of Asian cooks don’t. They don’t have recipes. They just kind of feel their way through. And when she conveys the information to me for how to cook something, I step back and go, “Okay, I heard you said this, this, and this,” and I’m like writing those down as if they were instructions that I could follow later. And that is a way to sort of synthesize the information.

So, when you’re taking good notes, you’re doing that. You’re not sort of just capturing anything as it comes along because then your steps may not be all out of order. You’re actually synthesizing them into something that’s useful and structured. And that, to me, is sometimes hard to do, but if you practice it over time, you get really good at it.

And when you’re doing it as well, it also helps you identify if there are gaps. So, in the book, I give an example about cooking chicken pho. It’s a recipe, and my mom’s giving me these instructions, and she says, like, “Hey, you’ve got these vegetables, you need to chop them up. And then you need to do X, Y, and Z.” And at the end, after I write it all down, I realize, “I didn’t do anything with these vegetables that I chopped up. What do I do with them?”

But if I didn’t sequence the information out, I wouldn’t necessarily realize that the vegetables didn’t go anywhere. And so then, it’s like, “Hey, mom, I missed the vegetables. Where do they go?” It’s like, “Okay, well, you add them at this point in time.” It’s like, “Okay, let me slot that in where it needs to happen.” And so, that active synthesis really helps you make sure that you fully understand the information.

So, when you’re capturing the information and then, ultimately, sending out, that it’s like 100% accurate, and you’ve helped identify potentially gaps in the information that you’ve plugged in as a part of that discussion.

Pete Mockaitis
So, sequence is fantastic in terms of, “How do I do this thing?” and in the course of a meeting, we say, “Oh, we should do this.” “Oh, but first I guess we got to do that.” “Oh, but that’s really going be contingent on this.” And so then, that really is super value added in terms of we had a jumble of discussion, and then what’s coming out the other side is, “Oh, here are the six steps. One, two, three, four, five, six. You made it look easy, Anh. Cool.”

So, that’s one style or approach of synthesis is sequence, chronology. Are there any other key frameworks or schemas that are handy when it comes to synthesizing?

Anh Dao Pham
Yeah, another active synthesis that I describe in the book is I call it inference. And so, this is like a really simple technique where you try to collect multiple pieces of information, and then you try to extrapolate another piece of information out of that. So, one of the mistakes that you’ll make maybe early on when you’re even participating in meetings, regardless of whether or not you’re taking notes, is you just take statements at face value.

So, it’s like, “Anh’s going to go on vacation this week. Pete has Anh scheduled for a podcast this week.” Those are two pieces of information. Now, if you’re not thinking about them, you just write those two pieces of information down, but if you’re thinking about them, you realize, “Anh’s on vacation this week, and Pete’s got a podcast. Well, Anh’s not going to make that podcast and we need to reschedule it.” There’s an extrapolation that happens.

And sometime those seems super obvious but, when you’re in a meeting, and when you’re in a lot of meetings throughout the day, oftentimes people are only participating and thinking about their one piece of it. So, I might only think about my thing, you might only think about your thing, and nobody’s connecting the two dots together.

And so, the act of inferences take those pieces of information, and then if you dare extrapolate and make another statement, a conclusion based off of that, just to make sure that you understand what the result is. So, maybe in this specific example, we say, “Oh, Anh is not going to be there for the podcast so we’ve got to reschedule it.” And I might say, “Oh, no, no, no, Pete is so special that I’m going to come out of my vacation and I’m going to take this call with him so that I can be on this podcast.” And you’re like, “Okay,” and all worked out.

So, the extrapolation was incorrect in that statement, but we clarified something that was really important that everybody missed and nobody said it out loud.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s fun.

Anh Dao Pham
And so, to me, that’s a great skill and it’s really simple. The one thing on that skill that you have to be okay with is getting things wrong. And I think in note-taking, in general, or any sort of synthesis, you have to be okay with getting things wrong and having people correct you, and it’s not until people have corrected you enough and you got it right in the way that you’ve written it down, that you know that you understand the material, so you have to get pass that, but I think the benefits are huge.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And I think that can, over time, expose some themes and patterns in terms of, “Oh, okay, this person will make vacation exceptions for super important things,” or, “Does not ever want to be interrupted on their vacation.” And so, that’s a very narrow extrapolation or theme or pattern recognition.

And then, in a way, it’s even helpful for the individuals in terms of, “Oh, here’s how I’m communicating, and here’s what’s often missed. Okay.” And you mentioned that when you are taking your notes, what you want to record, the most critical things such as the decisions made and the action items, who will do what by when. To what extent do we want to share the key considerations of those decisions?

Because sometimes those conversations are quite meandering, and then they landed on a decision. And sometimes they’re quite clear, “Oh, this critically hinges upon four key inputs.” So, how do you think about note-taking in these environments?

Anh Dao Pham
Yeah, I’d say it’s kind of an elevation of note-taking. So, if you’re in the beginning, and you’re still just trying to keep up with the Joneses in your note-taking, then it’s fine to capture just the most salient points, meaning the key decisions and the action items. I think that’s like the minimum that you really want to capture in order for your notes to be useful to others.

But once you progress to being able to extrapolate and organize information in your note-taking, and, ideally, doing that in real time because you’re participating, then you do want to be capturing the why. And I think that is one of the biggest things that helps you actually remember the material, is understanding the why.

It’s very difficult to just understand or remember words verbatim unless they’re maybe in a song, or the alphabet, or you have some sort of moniker for them. But when you actually understand the underlying reason, you don’t actually have to necessarily understand or remember the outcome. You can kind of reason your way there, if that makes sense.

A similar example from memory was when I was in high school, I took the Calc BC test to see if I could get credit for my Calculus course. And our teacher had covered this concept called the trapezoid rule, which is a way to calculate the area of a particular shape through an integration, or through an integral, and he explained how it was actually put together.

So, when you actually do the trapezoid rule, basically what you do is you take a line of the curve, and then you split it into trapezoids, and then you add all the trapezoids together, and that’s how you actually come up with the total are below the curve. This is like me super geeking out on the math side of things. But when I got to the AP test for this calculus exam, the first thing on the test was this trapezoid rule, and I remembered coming out of it, and everybody was, like, “Oh, my gosh, does anybody here remember the trapezoid rule? Like, how could you possibly remember that?”

And it’s like, “Well, I remembered how he explained it to me. I remember that you had to actually create trapezoids, and I know how to calculate the area of a trapezoid so I just kind of was able to derive the formula as I was going through.” And I know that was such a geek example but it stuck with me so much because I remember, like, “Well, because he explained the why, and I understood how it worked, I didn’t actually have to remember the formula at the very end.”

And so, to your point, if you’re going through and you’re having these conversations, if you can capture the why, participate in the why, then you may not even need to remember the outcome because if somebody is asking, you can say, “Oh, well, I remember we talked about this and that, and this was good. And so, the conclusion must’ve been this.” And I think that that’s very powerful as well to have that information so that you can reason through those things.

Pete Mockaitis
That is really good. And I find that when I don’t have an understanding of a why, or the why is just nonsense to me, I have a hard time remembering anything associated with the conversation or anything there. So, that’s really insightful.

Anh Dao Pham
It’s like your brain almost discards the information. It’s like a superfluous piece of information, you’re like, “That didn’t make sense. It didn’t fit into the puzzle pieces of my brain, so I’m just going to kind toss it out.” And then once you truly understand that, whether or not you agree with it is a different question, but if you at least understand the reason that got you there, then, typically, you’re going to remember the answer.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then any tips when it comes to shorthand, organization, or sending them out, or platforms?

Anh Dao Pham
I mostly advise people to use the tools that are most easy for them to use. You want to use what’s most comfortable for you. So, this is like a really simple example but at my office, we used to have computers in the room, in the conference rooms, for our meetings, and then you could also bring your laptop and plug it in.

And one of the things that I would do pretty regularly is I would bring up the conference room with a computer, and then put my notes documents up on the screen so that people could see it, but then I would actually take notes from my laptop. So, it was just projecting the information through one mechanism and taking notes from my laptop.

One time a person asked me, “Why do you do that?” I was like, “Well, I type much faster on my laptop because the keyboard is the keyboard that I practice on. The keys are a certain height. I’m just more comfortable there.” And it’s such a small tip but if you are much faster on your laptop, then go ahead and use that as advice.

And, similarly, if you’re very familiar with a particular word processing program, if you much prefer Word or Google Docs or something like that, use the mechanism that you think is going to be the fastest and easiest for you to use. Then if you send them out, you might want to translate them or post them somewhere in a shared document, depending on what your company uses, but I’d say when you’re at least capturing the information, use the device and tools that are most comfortable for you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And when you mentioned your book, when you send them out, you want to do so as promptly as possible.

Anh Dao Pham
Yes, you do because, honestly, things move so fast that the information may be invalid or have changed over time. So, if I sit too long sometimes on a recap, sometimes people have completed the action items and they’ve already come to slightly different conclusions. So, you want the information to go out as timely as possible, and you want it to be timely and accurate and concise if possible, and to get them to the broadest population that you can that’s relevant to them.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Anh, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about more of your favorite things?

Anh Dao Pham
I’d say the only thing that I wanted to reiterate is I think that, again, note-taking is a very learnable skill, and it’s one of the things that people don’t pay attention to, they don’t think about investing in, and I think that there are so many different benefits if you just invest a little bit more in yourself, that you’ll have. This is in your arsenal for the rest of your career, and reap those benefits.

And I feel like the only thing you need to get over is, if you don’t type very fast, and don’t practice this skill often, just to let your ego get out of the way, and spend a little bit of time, and know that it’s going to benefit you over the course of your career.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Anh, we spoke pretty recently but you mentioned that you did prepare some additional favorite things. So, lay it on us, how about another favorite quote?

Anh Dao Pham
So, recently, I was reading a book called Be Water, My Friend by Shannon Lee. It’s a book about the philosophies of Bruce Lee. And my favorite quote from the book is “The usefulness of a cup is in its emptiness.” And maybe this goes along with that sort of theme of getting out of your own way. One of the things that they talk about in the book is there’s a proverb about a person who is meeting a Zen master, and he’s talking about something, and his Zen master is trying to give him feedback but he’s not listening to anything.

And so, the Zen master takes tea and starts pouring it into a cup, and then the cup starts overflowing, and the person says, “The cup is overflowing. It can’t hold any more tea.” He’s like, “Well, how can you learn anything if your mind is already full.” And I love that quote because it reminds me, if I’m sort of struggling with something, maybe it’s because I have a preconceived notion or something, my mind is too full that it can’t receive the information to understand the truth.

And I feel like when I get stuck, I’ll often think about that, like, “Is there a way that I, again, could be looking at this differently or sort of letting go of some particular assumption or reservation that I have in order to get out of my own way?”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Anh Dao Pham
Have you seen the TED Talk by Derek Sivers: How to start a movement?

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I think I have long ago.

Anh Dao Pham
It’s one of my favorites. I think it’s a two-minute TED Talk, really, really short. And what I love about it is it’s entertaining as well as it packs a punch of a message. And, basically, he shows a video of a person who’s sort of like dancing like a crazy person on a hill. It’s a hill with a bunch of people who were sort of sitting, maybe it’s like a picnic or a show or something.

And there’s one person who gets up, and he starts dancing. And then after he’s dancing for a period of time, then one second person gets up and starts dancing. And then just a few minutes later, all of a sudden, people swarm together and start dancing together. And he says, “Hey, we’ve started a movement.”

And the interesting thing about this is he says people think about leadership as the first person who actually started the movement, but, actually, it was the first follower who was the most impactful because the first follower joins that leader, and the quote is, “Without the first follower, the leader is just a lone nut.”

And I love that because it stresses the importance of being not necessarily the person who’s typically designated as leader, but a leader in a different capacity. And, in a way, I think note-taking is kind of similar to that. Sometimes you’re offering support in your role, and when you offer support, it offers a different kind of leadership. And the first follower is actually the person who helps create the movement. Without the second person, there never would’ve been a swarm of other people.

So, if you haven’t seen the TED Talk, I highly recommend it. It’s not exactly a study but the message packs a powerful punch.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Anh Dao Pham
I was thinking about different books. I read books in all different genres. And kind of in the note-taking theme, I actually have two favorite books on the topics of writing, and these were books that I read when I was writing Glue. The first is On Writing Well by William Zinsser, and it’s a book about writing nonfiction. He actually talks, too, about if you’re writing in business but you’re not a person who’s aspiring to be an author, how important it is to be able to express your words concisely. And I found that it was just such an impactful book, not long at all, but just packed a great message.

The second book on writing is Stephen King, an author that I’m sure everybody is familiar with, called On Writing. It’s more about writing fiction, but I think both of them just teach you that there are so much more to learn in the craft of writing. And while note-taking isn’t the same as writing a book, I think it just reminds you that there are ways that you can always improve on what you’re doing, and something that you’re doing every day on a daily basis in your jobs.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool?

Anh Dao Pham
It’s funny because I’ve been saying, “I really like typing so I like to do everything electronically,” but my favorite tool is actually Post-Its, Post-it notes. I love Post-it notes. When I have lots of tasks that I needed to do, I’ve got lots of Post-it notes all over my desk. In fact, you can see when I’m really busy because I’ll  have lots of Post-it notes everywhere.

But I use them for facilitating meetings. If you’re doing sort of any in-person discussion, or any sort of brainstorming, or clustering exercises. I love all of that. If you’re doing timelines, it’s easy to plot things out in a timeline. Or, in a case where you maybe don’t want to take notes or you have the luxury of having people in person, and you want to sequence information. This is great. You can write a Post-it, you can move them around. It’s wonderful. I love them so much that people will joke sometimes that I must’ve invested in 3M.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Anh Dao Pham
I read a lot. And I feel like people forget that they can read to get information. Probably not your listeners. I think maybe they do like to read, and you have a lot of guests who are authors, but one of the things I find so beautiful about today is that you can learn about almost anything you want to learn about because there are so many resources out there through videos, through blogs, etc. But I love reading books. I feel people gravitate now to online content for a lot of things, or short-term content, but I feel there’s nothing better than a really well-put together book.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you’re known for?

Anh Dao Pham
Outside of being a lover of note-taking and a lover of Post-its, in the book and the other things that we had talked about in the last podcast I did, people do talk to me a lot about this idea of not having to have a project plan when you’re a project manager. The other thing that I often get asked about is this methodology I introduced in the book about project management called CALM. And it means closely aligned, loosely managed.

And it’s a way of managing projects without managing them as hands-on, as typical project managers might. Through alignment and setting clear goals, and then giving people ownership over their respective tasks rather than trying to dictate and control everything. So, I get asked about that a lot.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Anh Dao Pham
I’d love it if folks could contact me through my website. It’s www.GlueLeaders.com. In there, you can find, again, all the links to any information about my book, this podcast when it’s available, as well as the last podcast that you had me on, Pete. So, thank you so much for the opportunity. And, yeah, if you’d like to reach out or have any other questions about note-taking or anything else in the book, I’d love to hear from you.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Anh Dao Pham
I’d say, at least with respect to note-taking, just try it. Just try it and, again, practice. It takes a lot of practice, and practice doesn’t actually make perfect. I feel like, as a person in my career, I’m almost looking for a way to progress, and I never have finished progressing. And so, I’d say practice and continue to strive to make yourself better because I think everybody has the capacity to do more and better as long as they put their minds to it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Anh, this has been a treat. I wish you much luck and many good notes.

Anh Dao Pham
Thank you. I hope your listeners really enjoy this note-taking, and I’d love to hear from them. Thank you again for the opportunity, Pete.