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Career Management Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Jan 22
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1122: How to Find the Work You’re Wired to Do with William Vanderbloemen

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William Vanderbloemen discusses how professionals can find both success and satisfaction in their careers.

You’ll Learn

  1. The one habit that puts you ahead of 90% of people
  2. How to learn what you don’t know about yourself
  3. The one skill to work on—regardless of your job

About William 

William Vanderbloemen has been leading the Vanderbloemen Search Group for 15 years, where they are regularly retained to identify the best talent for teams, manage succession planning, and consult on all issues regarding teams. This year, Vanderbloemen will complete their 3,000th executive search.  

Prior to founding Vanderbloemen Search Group, William studied executive search under a mentor with 25+ years of executive search at the highest level. His learning taught him the very best corporate practices, including the search strategies used by the internationally known firm Russell Reynolds. Prior to that, William served as a Senior Pastor at one of the largest Presbyterian Churches in the United States.

Resources Mentioned

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William Vanderbloemen Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
William, welcome!

William Vanderbloemen
Thanks so much, Pete. Appreciate you having me here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about some of your wisdom. Your book, “Work How You Are Wired,” great title, great messages. I want to kick it off right at the beginning, I’m intrigued, we’ve got right off the bat, chapter one titled, “Almost Everyone Hates Their Job.” What a bummer! Can you tell us, what’s the underlying research data for this assertion?

William Vanderbloemen
If you do a pretty thorough search, and we did, of reputable surveys, of really honest looks at happiness and engagement in the workplace, the resounding conclusion is most Americans hate their job.

And it’s probably also true globally, but most Americans hate their job. Not we’re mildly dissatisfied or we’re a little bit unengaged or when is hump day or that sort of thing. They really don’t like their jobs. And life is just too short to spend the majority of your waking hours doing something you hate.

And to add onto that, most Americans hate their job, most managers say their team is just okay. Now that’s a really messed up world, where you’ve got people that hate doing what they do and managers thinking on your best day you’re okay. Is it possible to find work that you enjoy and are good at?

That’s like the alchemy we were trying to study from an empirical, data-driven method to figure out, “Who is happy at their work and good at it? And how do we distill that into a pathway for readers to be able to find work they’re happy with?”

We wrote a book on how to behave at work and get promoted. It did wildly well. It’s called, Be The Unicorn. It’s like, “Wow, if I just do all this, I’ll get promoted,” and it works. However, if you’re getting promoted within a workplace that you don’t enjoy, that’s really not the whole ball game, you know, “What does it profit a man if they gain the whole world, but lose their soul?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Okay. Well, so now I’m intrigued by the almost part. So I know that we’ve heard about the Gallup Engagement Study many a time on the podcast. It’s a favorite research piece to cite. So with that and other sources, are we looking, William, at 2%, 6%? How many people are digging their job and flourishing in it?

William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, not many. Not many that I can find. If you look at who’s disengaged, you’re going to find a widespread of this percent, that percent, but the majority is more than half. Some will go as high as three-fourths. So I guess you could deduce that less than half of people are really enjoying their job. And then you get to, “And are they any good at it?” It’s pretty small.

I run an executive search firm, which means companies hire us to find their best talent. And we’ve been doing it a long time. We would do a pretty high volume of that, so we have lots of data at our fingertips. And we went and found the people that are the absolute best at their job and happy with it, that we know, and I mean, like 30,000 of them.

And we tried to draw some common denominators about, “What work did they choose based on what kind of personality they have? And is there a way to distill that so that somebody reading could pick up a book like that, and say, ‘I need to find work that’s going to be fulfilling and make me feel good and that I’ll be good at’?” Because it doesn’t have to be that way.

And, thank goodness, we’re no longer in a day where you get one job out of high school, you stay with the company 55 years, you get some form of watch at the end, and, “Yay! Yay!” No, there’s a lot of career mobility. If you’re not happy, it doesn’t have to stay that way.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. Well, could you give us perhaps the overview mindset shift or perspective that we should take on as we’re exploring these kinds of questions?

William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, you need to get to know yourself. That’s it. Get to know yourself. Get to know what you’re good at and what you’re not. Get to know what you like, what you don’t. Get to know what gives you energy, what doesn’t. Know yourself. And that sounds so simple, but to go way back in the wayback machine, I don’t use my philosophy degree for a lot, but Socrates, maybe the founder of Western thought, his top teaching was, “Know thyself.”

And when we studied the 30,000, we called them unicorns because they just stand out in the crowd. They’re this kind of people. Pete, you ever get in an elevator and ride for 30 seconds with somebody on the elevator, and by the end of elevator ride, you’re like, “I want to know more about them. I want to sign up for their email list. I want to be a part of their…”?

Or, you run into them at a cocktail party, there’s something different about their countenance, right, and you want to engage. Those are what we call unicorns, and it bleeds over into work. They behave a certain way. They choose a certain type of work based on their knowledge of themselves. And what we found, when we studied these unicorns, is they have about 12 habits they follow that are not hard to follow, but very few people follow them. And one of them is the practice of self-awareness.

Now, this is a little long, so stay with me just for a minute. But we surveyed the 30,000 unicorns we had, and we said, “Force-rank these 12 habits, what are you really good at and what are you not?” And the “What are you really good at?” was different all across the board because some people like speed, some people like studying methodically, people are wired differently.

But the one common denominator, when they’re force-ranked what they’re good at, the unicorns, the best of the best said that their worst habit of the 12 is self-awareness. Like, across the board, they’re all like, “I got to work on that.” Now, hold that thought.

We also surveyed a quarter million people, just Gen pop, you and me, everybody out there. And when it came to self-awareness, the average people, like me, 93% of us said we were above average in self-awareness.

Pete Mockaitis
Ninety-three percent?

William Vanderbloemen
Now I’m not a math major, but there’s not a group on the planet where 93% is above average. Average is 50% and half’s above and half’s below.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s like Lake Wobegon going on over here.

William Vanderbloemen
Right, people think they’re exactly, exactly. That’s exactly what it is. And the best way I can describe it is, do you remember the first time you heard your voice recorded?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

William Vanderbloemen
Oh, it was terrible for me. I don’t know, how was it for you?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, well, it was not pleasant. It was a voicemail situation, and that’s a whole other thing.

William Vanderbloemen
Oh, and you heard, and you’re like, “That’s not me.”

Pete Mockaitis
It was disappointing, like, “Oh, really?”

William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, I mean, I was like, “Who’s this guy talking, and why is his voice so bad?” And it was me. It’s that disconnect. People are not willing to take objective, hard looks in the mirror and see what they’re good at. If you really want to find work that you’re wired to do, you need to spend some time getting to know yourself on a, “How am I wired?” basis.

And the good news is we’re living in an age where you can find that stuff out quicker than ever, whether you use an Enneagram, or a DISC inventory, or Myers-Briggs, or what have you. You can figure out how you’re wired easier than any generation in human history. And if you’ll start there, get to know yourself, “What do you enjoy? What are you good at? What drains energy from you?” if you start to get to know yourself, you’ll be able to find work that you’re wired to do.

In the book, we took the 12 habits that unicorns practice, which is in the Be the Unicorn book, and we said, “This sounds like 12 lanes of work.” And, sure enough, it is. So, like, one of the habits is speed, “Do you get back to people quickly? Do you do it intentionally? Are you driven to go faster and faster?”

There are types of work that are really good at that – sales, marketing, executive assistant. That is speed driven. Neurosurgery is not, right? So you can have good, talented, smart people with different wirings that don’t need to be in certain kinds of jobs.

I sat with a friend of mine who actually is a neurosurgeon, and we met years and years ago. It was the first time I’d met with him. We went to a nice restaurant he picked for lunch. And let’s just call him Pete to save the identity, okay?

So, Pete sits down next to me, and the table gets set. I looked at my watch, he spent three solid minutes, arranging his forks and knives and silver just perfectly. And I just kept watching and watching. And, finally, he looked up and saw me watching him, and he kind of smiled, and I said, “Pete, have you ever considered studying OCD?”

And he kind of laughed and he looked at me, and he said, “William, here’s the thing. You want your neurosurgeon to be OCD.” And I was like, “You’re right.” So he understands himself. He’s in a field of work that requires that. He’s in one of those 12 lanes.

And the book is basically a 101 guide to saying, “How do I figure out myself enough to know which of these 12 lanes I’m most naturally wired for? And what are the jobs that really show up in those 12 lanes?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, William, to rewind a smidge, that notion of self-awareness, it’s fascinating. We had Dr. Tasha Eurich on the show, and that’s one of her big pieces, is you’re not as self-aware as you think. And that is the case for, I guess, 93% of those folks there.

And it’s intriguing that the unicorns think their self-awareness is worst. The rest think their self-awareness is great. And so, it kind of speaks to that notion of the true master recognizes that there is much more to learn in a given domain. And it is the sort of amateur or intermediate who thinks, “Oh, yeah, I got all that figured out.”

So, I’m intrigued about that very notion, is that sort of, I’m sure there’s a riddle or a quotable gem about this notion that, “If you think you’ve got it all figured out, you sure don’t. And it pays to have some humility and dig deeper into gaining a greater mastery of that thing.”

William Vanderbloemen
And if you’ll just commit just a little bit of time to it, learning a little bit about yourself, you’ll be ahead of 90% of everybody. It doesn’t take a lot of work.  That’s the good news about these statistics. Just learn a little. It’s like I’m a level two sommelier. And level one, I thought I knew something. Level two, it’s like, I don’t know anything.

But by just getting to level two, where I don’t know anything, if I’m at a dinner party, I know way more than most everybody around the table. It’s the same with self-awareness. We’re so bad at it. If you’ll just get a little bit better, you’ll have a competitive advantage in all of your human relationships and definitely in finding work that you’re wired to do.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so let’s talk about the self-awareness notion in terms of what does good self-awareness look like such that we might have a wake up call, and be like, “Oh, wow, William, I guess I’m not self-aware at all now that you mentioned it”?

William Vanderbloemen
Well, how about we do a little, here’s a fun little exercise. Nearly everyone, I think, listening has probably interviewed for a job where one of the questions is probably the one out of the gate is, “So tell me about yourself.”

It’s a pretty paralyzing question, “Okay, I came home from the hospital. I was born on a Saturday. I came home from the hospital on a Tuesday, I didn’t walk till I was…” I mean, does it need to be that thorough?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, there’s a thousand directions you can take with that one. Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen
It’s so liberating, it’s paralyzing. How’s that? It’s not specific, right? So what if you did this instead? What if you said, “Tell me about yourself,” and I’m interviewing to work for you, Pete, and you’re running some really fast-growing podcast? I mean, Joe Rogan is nervous about you, right? So, like, you’re moving big time up the chart.

Pete Mockaitis
But more because of my ultimate fighting skills, William.

William Vanderbloemen
That’s right. Well said. So, you are interviewing me for a marketing position, and you said, “Tell me about yourself.” Well, this is very careful sentence, “Here’s what I’m learning about myself,” that’s interesting. Just steal that line, use it if you’re listening, “Here’s what I’m learning about myself.”

And that shows I don’t have it all figured out and I’m very aware of it. I am working on it. That’s great. Now what you can’t do is say, “Let me tell you what I’m learning about myself,” and then go into what you’re talking about with your therapist about childhood trauma, and, like, not that, right? That’s certainly something worth learning.

But in a job interview, what if you said, “Here’s what I’m learning about myself, Pete. I’m learning that, you know, on the Myers-Briggs, I’m a very high I. I like to plan the next party. And, you know, if you look at me on the Enneagram, I’m a seven. That’s like the social coordinator, the rush chairman. And what’s really interesting about people that are I’s and 7’s is they love trying new things. Okay, so that’s me.”

“If you look at my last three jobs, and where I’ve listed on my resume, the things I actually accomplished,” which, by the way, is a freebie thrown in there. Don’t talk about objectives in your resume. Talk about things you got done. “If you look at where I got the highest marks in my last three jobs, every single job, it was when the boss asked me to, ‘Go figure something out we’d never done before.’ That gives me energy, right?”

“What doesn’t give me energy is showing up at work and being told, ‘Do the same thing every day and make it a little bit better every day, same routine task and engineer it better.’ Like, I can do it, but I’m going to lose energy. You’re not going to give me a good review. Put me in a place where I’ve never seen it before and I have to. And I know that about me. I’m learning it. I’m a seven. I’m an I. I’m learning these things.”

“Let me tell you why I’m saying all this. I’ve looked at your company, Pete, you’re growing like crazy. It’s not just Joe Rogan. Mel Robbins is talking, too. They’re worried. And I’m guessing you, with all this world of algorithms and AI and marketing changing, you don’t need somebody who has a fixed playbook that’s going to come in and try and run it their way. You need someone who really enjoys the curiosity of trying to figure something out.”

“Someone who says, if you said, ‘Jump out of the plane and build a parachute on the way down,’ I would get excited about that. And I’m guessing that’s what your company’s facing. So what am I learning about myself? There’s a lot more to learn. But the way I’m wired might match the kind of challenges you’re facing with this job. And I’m super excited to dive into that with you today.” That’s a whole different way to answer.

And, by the way, you’ve just won the interview and you’ve prevented them from asking you the question, “Well, what is your greatest weakness?” I hate that question. So, does that help?

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. So, it’s ongoing. We’re learning about ourselves and, in so doing, there’s great stories to be told and matches to be found and options to be ruled out based upon what you’re seeing there. That’s super. So you mentioned the DISC, the Myers-Briggs, the Enneagram, and those are cool. Do you have any other go-to approaches, methodologies, questions that are super impactful in terms of getting meaningful self-awareness upgrades?

William Vanderbloemen
Well, the main thing is do you have friends that will actually tell you the truth? I mean, that’s the ultimate test. And one of the ways you can look for that is, “Do your friends always tell you things you like or not?” My wife, I love her, there’s no one I’d rather spend time with on the planet than her. And I’m not saying that to be like saccharine or anything. It’s true.

And she tells me things I don’t want to hear every day. And it’s usually to pull something out of me, some self-awareness I need to develop. So, do you have friends who actually tell you things you don’t want to hear that you reflect back and say, “You know, they’re right about that”?

And then the second way is to use some of these inventories – DISC, Myers-Briggs, Enneagram. We developed one around these 12 lanes called the Vander Index, which will very quickly tell you, “Here’s my top lane of these 12, and where I probably ought to look first. And here’s my bottom one where I’m probably not going to be happy. And then some things in the middle that maybe are worth a look and maybe not.”

Pete Mockaitis
And I am digging the notion of you need friends to tell you the truth. You’re bringing me back to, in college, I was selected to be the student speaker at the College of Business Commencement ceremony at the University of Illinois, and that was kind of fun and cool and yay. But I played this joke on people, and they said, “Oh, you’re going to be the speaker. What are you going to talk about?”

And so I would do the shtick, and I’d say, “Okay, I got a crazy idea. All right, check it out. So people think graduation rite, it’s like the end? But, no, no, I’m going to flip it on its head and say, ‘No, check it out.’ Actually, it’s the beginning. And that’s why they call it commencement, right?” So that’s like super cheesy, been done way too many times speech.

And so, I like to mess with people by getting super fired up about it, right, just to see what they would do. And you could tell good friends, they’re like, “You’re joking, right?” That’s what a good friend says. And then the not-so-great friends are like, “Oh, interesting.” You know, they just sort of smile, nod, and move along.

So, I love that, is to have the friends and then to, you don’t have to subject them to joke tests. But I think it does pay to, and again, Dr. Tasha Eurich had a technique she called the Dinner of Truth, where you’re actually asking these good friends the key questions because they might not know that that feedback is welcome, needed, desired from you to go there.

William Vanderbloemen
And here’s a little secret, Pete. Maybe you’ve experienced it as well. I’ve had the chance to be around a lot of successful people, way more successful than I am. I’ve also been blessed to see this company grow more than I ever thought it would.

I think most uber successful people will tell you, “The more successful you get in life, the fewer people there are that will tell you the truth.” I have a friend who says, “The first day you’re the CEO is the last day you hear the truth because everybody wants to tell you how wonderful things are.”

My COO, and I hired her, said, “What’s the main reason you’re hiring me?” And I said, “To tell me the truth. Like, that’s all.” And she’s like, “That’s it?” I’m like, “That’s it.” So, as you, I imagine people were taking time to listen to your podcast are progressing in their career, they’re moving up.

Probably a lot of listeners, mid-30s or under, just realize, establish those friendships now before you hit the top of whatever ladder you’re climbing because once you get to the top, it’ll be very hard to find friends that’ll be honest with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, good friends, ask questions, take the Vander Index. Can you give us the rundown? What are these 12 lanes?

William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, sure. They are, we can start with the fast, because it’s my favorite. But, you know, the fast is people who respond and respond quickly and love doing it. Like, I probably ought to be in therapy. If you text me, it really doesn’t matter what time of day it is, I’m probably looking at it.

And I know that’s on the way out and the Brick is the thing everybody’s putting their phone on, all my kids want it, to disconnect from the addicted phone and all. But there is still an art. Business is won by speed of response. And there’s all kinds of research in the book to talk about it. But that’s one.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah, Jay Baer, on the show, talked about this. It could be huge, in sales particularly.

William Vanderbloemen
And it’s not hard. The reality is it’s just not hard, but very few people follow through on it. Very few, but that’s one. If you’re one that’s like, “I just need to get back to them real quick,” if you find yourself constantly answering a text, that might be a sign that you’re one of the fasts.

And rather than run through all of them, I’ll give you just a couple others. The prepared is another one. And it’s almost the opposite of the fast. The prepared is someone who comes to work with everything neat. Like, my wife’s pantry is this way. She is prepared. Everything is in the same place. And if we rent a house for vacation, the pantry gets set up pretty much the same way.

So there are some people like that and those are people that you want in compliance roles, train masters, brain surgeons, pilots. These are people that speed isn’t as important as quality control.

Another habit that I’ll just hit on real briefly is some people have a lane where their work needs to matter more than just what they get to do. Like, I love selling stuff. I always have. I am a salesperson at heart. However, if I were selling something that didn’t leave the world better than I found it, I’m not going to be as energized. We call it purpose driven. Are you driven by something higher than just getting the check?

And some people aren’t, or some people are, but just by little things. Some people are about giant things. If you are purpose driven and you go into a business with zero purpose, you’re going to be very, very unhappy. Authenticity is another one. Do you have to be authentic? Is that who you are?

And not to use too many personal stories, but we had one of our seven kids that didn’t pass the Driver’s Ed test when it was time to go get the license. Like, they just messed up one turn. Perfect on everything but that one thing.

And they’re like, “Oh, my gosh, I don’t know what I’m going to tell my friends.” “Well, just tell them you’re taking the test tomorrow.” But that’s a lie, “Well, are you taking the test tomorrow?” “Yes, but it’s not telling them I failed today.” Like, this particular child is very authentic, “I’m not going to hide the truth.” You know what she would be terrible at? Politics.

Pete Mockaitis
Politics.

William Vanderbloemen
She’d be horrible at it. Because there is, you say, “Well, politicians are disingenuous.” Actually, to run for president of the United States, you have to know how to talk to people in Yakima, Washington, which is way different than Seattle, Washington, and in Illinois, which is way different than in Texas. And so you have to mold and adapt and shift.

And people who are very driven by authenticity will not do well in that role, nor will they do well in a sales role. There are other jobs for them. And the cool thing about the book is we actually unearthed jobs that you would think all the jobs that are listed are CEO, CFO, COO. No, no, no, no, no.

Mailman is in here. Like, things, brick mason, which is a great career to go into right now for a whole lot of reasons, not the least of which is AI. But there are clear examples within each lane. You should read the chapter about a lane and say, “That’s me.” You don’t have to go take a test. “That is actually who I am. Okay, here’s the kind of work I need to look for. Here’s the kind of work that’s going to make me crazy.”

So, hopefully, within each, and you can read them in any order, but by the end of the book, you should find one, two, or maybe three of these lanes that are like, “I was made for that.” And one, for sure, and maybe two, I don’t know about three, that you’d say, “I don’t ever need to go near work like that.” Because you can behave well at work and be awesome at your job and hate it, and what’s the point if you don’t enjoy what you’re getting to do?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, William, I dig this. So fast, prepared, purpose-driven, authenticity. Could you share one that’s maybe surprising? Like, folks say, “Huh, that’s a strength, that’s a lane I can lean into? I thought I was just weird”?

William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, well, there’s something about curiosity that is a lane for work, it’s a habit of unicorns, and it’s a bit counterintuitive to how a lot of people were raised. I was raised, “Don’t ask too many questions. Do what you’re told and you’ll do well at your job.”

In today’s world, you need to always be asking questions. You need to always be curious, “Why are we doing it that way?” The greatest value add of a longtime employee is their institutional memory which cannot be transfused in a day, right? But the greatest gift of a new team member is their ability to look at how we do things, and say, “Well, why do we do it that way? Why don’t we do it that way?”

The curious, who are always looking and always shifting and always asking the why, that might have been out of favor in an old-school world. But now that we’re in an open source, AI-driven world, it is everything. And one other that shows up that it’s not counterintuitive, but there’s a counterintuitive piece to it is agility.

There’s a lane for people who want to try new things. They’re always learning a habit or a hobby or something. The unhealthy version of it is the person who you say, “So what’s your favorite book you ever read?” And they say, “Oh, I just finished it.” And you ask them six months later, “What’s your favorite book?” “Oh, I just finished it.” It’s almost like a shiny object thing.

But the agile are the kind that can…I hate this word. It’s been five and a half years since the shutdowns and I still can’t hear the word pivot without thinking it’s a four-letter word. But people who can pivot will own the future because the world isn’t just changing annually now. It’s changing minute by minute with technological advances and such.

And here’s the surprising piece about agility, okay, “Oh, William, that makes sense. Agility, that’s a no-brainer.” Agility atrophies. It goes away a little bit every single day. And here’s the living example of that. I’m a jogger or a runner, it’s probably a matter of opinion, but I got into my 40s and I had to start stretching so I didn’t get injured. I hate doing all this stretching and preparation and I just want to go run.

Well, the stretching turned out to be harder than the running. And one time I was stretching, trying to touch my toes, and our littlest one walked in, and she sat down next to me, she tied herself into some form of human knot, and she untied herself, looked up at me, smiled, laughed out loud, left the room without saying a word. Just making total fun of me, because little kids can bend more than super Stretch Armstrong, right?

And as she left the room, it dawned on me, “Little kids can stretch, old men can’t.” Every day I’m alive, I get less flexible. So even if you’re naturally wired for agility, you have to work on it or it goes away. Every day a team is alive, it gets less flexible. Every day a company is alive, it gets less flexible. This is like a law of thermodynamics.

So the surprise about agility is not that it’s one of the lanes that you’d be looking at. The surprise is, even if you’re good at it, you’ve got to keep working at it. And if you’ll work just a little tiny bit every day, you’ll be way ahead of people as you get farther down the career road.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s interesting. In some ways, it’s sort of inversely correlated with wisdom because it’s, like, you do some things, “Hey, that worked great. Let’s do that next time,” “Hey, that worked not great. Let’s not do that next time.”

And so then, over time, you’ve got a series of associations and memories in terms of, “This is good. This is bad,” “That works. That doesn’t work.” And then you’re naturally, I felt it in myself. I’m naturally less inclined to go try that wild thing. It’s like, “Hmm, that seems a lot like these other four things I’ve tried that didn’t work. So I don’t think I want to do that.”

William Vanderbloemen
But the pace of change, I read a study some years back that said there’s been more change – this is pre-pandemic – more change in the last 10 years than in the hundred years prior technologically. And now we’re on the other side of a pandemic, and we’re into the AI world. And the study went on to say, “More change in the last 10 years than the hundred prior. And the next 10 are going to make the last 10 look slow.”

So even if you aren’t working in a job where agility is your main lane, everyone needs to work on their agility because the world, where everything stays the same, first of all, it never existed. But, secondly, if it did exist, it exists a little less each day. The rate of change is growing. My personal ability to adapt to change is shrinking. And no matter what kind of job I’m doing, I’ve got to do everything I can to narrow that gap.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, William, tell me, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

William Vanderbloemen
No, I would just say, if you’re interested at all in these things, you can just go to Vanderbloemen.com. You don’t have to know how to spell it. Just try in whatever search browser you use, and you’ll find us. And there are probably five or 6,000 resources on how to be awesome at your job, how to win at work, how to manage employees, how to ask for a raise. There’s lots of stuff there that might help people past the two books we’ve talked about.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

William Vanderbloemen
“Know thyself.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

William Vanderbloemen
The easy answer is go read Atomic Habits. There’s great stories in there about how to build habits. And I think probably 15 million people have done that now, so it’s doing all right as a book.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

William Vanderbloemen
I have made a switch to trying to write things down rather than type them, and to try and be more present with people. So I have ditched the laptop in meetings now and I’m using reMarkable. I don’t know if you know this device.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

William Vanderbloemen
It’s a Notepad that feels like paper and then it uploads straight. It digitizes everything and it uploads straight into my Google Drive. I have all my notes from all my meetings, and I’m writing. And it’s, like, if you don’t have that laptop open.

It’s like the Simon Sinek talk, where he’s like, “Hey, let me show you the difference between distracted and not.” And he talks to people, and he says, “Now, you in the front row, give me your phone.” And he just holds it, and he says, “I’m not looking at this. Do I feel more or less engaged with you right now?” And, of course, the answer is less.

So I’m trying to remove things that make me less engaged with people, and one of those is the screen. It makes it hard to get back to people with a text within a minute, but I use my little reMarkable in every meeting now.

And I’ve heard it, growing up, I’m actually believing it more than ever, “What’s written is what’s remembered.” So the actual slowness of writing out each letter instead of typing 120 words a minute, there’s something to that that ingrains it in my brain, and I’m hoping it makes me more engaged and present with folks in the coming years.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, you hear them quoted back to you often?

William Vanderbloemen
We have nine core values. They’re built around how we behave. One is called ridiculous responsiveness, and it’s just the power of getting back to people quickly and intentionally. And it’s in both books. You can read about it.

And I’ve had people say, “I took our whole staff of 500 people through the first chapter of Be the Unicorn and we built an entire strategy on getting back to people quicker, and it changed our business.” Like, over and over and over, I’m hearing people quote ridiculous responsiveness. I don’t know whether we came up with it or not, but it’s what I hear.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

William Vanderbloemen
Try spelling Vanderbloemen into any search engine, you’ll find it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, just get to know yourself. And that sounds selfish. It’s not. Once you know how you’re wired, you’ll know where you’re going to flourish the best.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. William, thank you.

William Vanderbloemen
Thank you, Pete. Appreciate you having me on.

Dec 08
0

1116: How to Take Control of Your Career with Confidence with Kimberly Brown

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Kimberly Brown shares practical steps on how to take charge of your career and steer it with intention.

You’ll Learn

  1. The framework for improving your reputation
  2. How to cultivate relationships that advance your career
  3. How to identify and amplify the one thing that makes you stand out

About Kimberly

Kimberly Brown is a globally recognized career and leadership strategist, bestselling author, and international keynote speaker. As the founder and CEO of Brown Leadership®, a premier learning and development firm, she helps mid-career and senior professionals amplify their brands, accelerate growth, and drive performance. Her bestselling book, Next Move, Best Move: Transitioning Into a Career You’ll Love, has empowered thousands to take control of their careers with strategy and confidence. 

She also hosts the Your Next Move Podcast, where she shares actionable insights on career advancement. A trusted expert, Kimberly’s work has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, Forbes, CNBC, NPR, and more. Find her online at kimberlybonline.com and brownleadership.com and follow her (@kimberlybonline) on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and Threads.

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Kimberly Brown Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Kimberly, welcome back!

Kimberly Brown
Thank you so much for having me. I’m very excited to be here again.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to chat. We’re talking about reputation and legacy. Could you start by sharing what do you think is the top mistake most people make when they’re thinking about building reputation?

Kimberly Brown
I think the first big mistake folks make is that they think reputation is just tied to execution. And I think, earlier on, I think folks are just really focused on task execution, “I got A, let me finish it. Okay, now we’re going to do the next thing. Now we’re going to do the next thing.” And they don’t think about the personal side of their reputation, how people feel when they’re around them.

And then I think the other side is exactly the opposite. Some people think that their personality, that the relationship can supersede not doing great work. But I think that not doing great work catches up over time. And people are always surprised when that happens. Like, “Oh, I know, but we were so good. Like, I thought we had a great relationship. Like, we get along.”

But it’s like, “No, they can’t trust you because the work quality is poor.” I think it always ends up being on both sides of the coin, that people don’t consider bringing both of those together. You have to do great work, but also have the great relationships and how you make people feel matters in that reputation as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Tell us more about how we make people feel. It’s interesting because I totally know what you mean, in that working with some folks is a delight and working with others isn’t. And it’s not that folks are being total jerks. You know, there’s no screaming or outrageously, clearly, bad problematic behavior but, overall, there are vibes in terms of, “I really enjoy being on that team, and I really don’t enjoy being on that team.” So, what’s behind the vibes?

Kimberly Brown
So, I think when we break down executive presence, I think that’s where it comes in. And, again, this is another term that people here, don’t necessarily know what it is. But when I teach executive presence, I say that it’s the gravitas, it’s communication, and it’s your appearance. And the vibes you’re talking about is that gravitas. And I think that’s the most confusing part about executive presence.

But that gravitas is your approach. It’s how you talk to people. It’s how you interact. It’s how you respond to positive and negative feedback, how you give positive and negative feedback.

When I think about someone who really has that gravitas, it brings me all the way back to college. There was a, I think she was a provost at the time at the university, and she used to do these meetings with student leaders. And students would come and have these grandiose ideas of all the things they needed to do.

And it was the first time I saw someone get turned down, but it felt good. Like, it was clear that she wasn’t going to move forward, clear that she didn’t like the idea, but the way she thanked them for giving their feedback, the way she acknowledged their presence and allowed them to speak within reason about whatever they wanted, that was the first time.

I didn’t know it then, but I always kept that in mind that you could say no and it doesn’t have to be nasty. It doesn’t have to hurt someone’s feelings. And I think about that in the workplace when we think about how people feel. When I talk about your brand, I think about the moments people have with you.

So how do people experience you when you’re having a really good day, when you’re running late, when you just got terrible feedback and now you have to show up in another meeting, when you are giving feedback to someone who’s doing well, someone who’s doing poorly, when you are being super casual. I think a lot of folks mess up their reputation sometimes when things get a little casual after hours, happy hours, conferences.

I used to do a lot of work with sales organizations, and we used to joke at sales events, it’s like, “Hmm, many people will have their job after this conference?” Because when people get casual and alcohol, someone always ends up losing their job because they did too much in front of someone who was super senior who they didn’t recognize.

So, when we think about reputation and how people feel around you, it’s like all of those moments that you create, related to your work and unrelated to your work, “What is their overall feeling in being around you?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m curious, do you remember what this provost said, did, that made rejections feel just fine?

Kimberly Brown
I think it was the acknowledgement. So, my master’s is in counseling. So that whole like building rapport, reciting back what someone says for clarity, she did that consistently. How she responded to good ideas and bad ideas were exactly the same. I think a lot of times leaders, when they hear an idea that’s bad, they’d be like, “Oh, yeah, no.”

But she still gave them the same respect. She acknowledged, “Thank you for sharing.” She recited the idea to make sure she understood it. Sometimes she’d even explain, like, “Well, why this couldn’t work.” Or other times, if she needed to like wrap the conversation, like, “You know, I will get back to you on that.” And she always did. She just knew in that form it probably wasn’t the time to go into a deeper explanation. She just always gave people the moment and didn’t rush them.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I’m thinking of the kookiest things connecting in my brain here. So, are you familiar with Nathan Fielder, the comedian?

Kimberly Brown
No, I’m not.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, he’s got a show called “The Rehearsal.” And so, it’s just thought-provoking. And he was exploring how people are interacting in different contexts and, specifically, in cockpits with co-pilots, and why the co-pilot doesn’t speak up when the other one’s making a terrible error. And so, it’s comedy, but it’s also like kind of high stakes.

And so that’s what he likes to do. He likes to confuse everybody with, “What are we doing?” But he had a situation where he was seeing how it is possible to reject people, but them to feel okay. And so, he is videotaping all this stuff and seeing all of these judges rejecting people for like an American Idol-type singing contest.

And it’s fascinating how it’s quite possible to do that. And he had a transformation where, and he gave a little speech about, “Hey, you know, unfortunately, we can’t make you move on, but I want to congratulate you because many people have this dream, but they stay in bed and you came out here, you waited in line, you showed up.”

And it was kind of inspiring in terms of, “That’s true.” And we all have that ability to take the other perspective and bring some good feelings and some acknowledgement about where folks are coming from, and what’s great about what they put forward. And it’s easy in our busyness to just kind of totally overlook doing that.

Kimberly Brown
Every single time. I tell folks, so many conversations in the workplace, we just need to slow it down. We just need to slow it down. We don’t give, especially tough conversations, the time that’s needed to do any of those things. It’s always like, “Oh, nope, onto the next. You did it wrong, fix it. It’s due tomorrow, figure it out.”

And if we give people just a little more time, not every situation is high stakes. I always tell people we’re not saving babies all the time. Like, the fate of the world is not in our hands nine times out of 10. Even if we feel like it is, most of the time it’s not, unless we’re like a doctor, right? So, we can slow things down a little bit to give people a little bit more time and give them a moment to process to feel the feels and then come back to the conversation later.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so can you share some specific actions that folks who are proactively thinking about their reputation, their legacy, and they want to make it great, what should they do in terms of surfacing these blind spots or some top best and worst practices to implement?

Kimberly Brown
Definitely. So, number one, I’d start with reviewing all the information you currently have. If you have formal performance appraisals, if you have anything documented, go through and really try to read it with an open mind. Now, I will be honest and I’ll be candid in that I know some people feel like the performance appraisal process doesn’t actually give them the thing. So, if you’re one of those people, just go right on to step two.

Step two, I want you to reach out to people who interface with you and your work. And I want you to think about various levels. So, I want top. I want people who are more senior than you, people who are at the same level, and people that are more junior. Because your reputation could be different at each level of how people see you based upon their experience.

And I want you to ask them simple questions. If you can do it in a meeting, even 15 minutes, that’s great. Some folks, they may want to do it over email. Some people I’ve seen do an anonymous Google Form, just so people can write in, “Can you describe my brand to you in three words? Can you give me an example of a situation that I handled really, really well, or an example of a situation that I didn’t handle so well?”

Other folks may like to do a start-stop-continue exercise and apply that to themselves. So, what do you need to start doing in your career and in your job? What do you need to stop doing? And what should you continue doing? So, essentially, what are the good things you’re already doing? So, when you get your feedback from either, you know, step one step two or both, and then I want you to sit and really think about, “Is how you’re showing up, is how people describe you congruent with where you’d like to go?”

One of the things I share with folks is how people describe you needs to be congruent with not only where you are, but aligned with the next logical step. People need to already see you there. So, if it’s congruent, you’re like, “Oh, how I feel like I am, what I want to do, this is aligned, great.” If not, we need to understand what those gaps are.

And then the last step I’d say is it’s time to connect with either a mentor or a coach of some sort. If you’re really conflicted and not sure what specific moves that you should make, this is a great time to bring all of this data, bring all of this information to a trusted mentor or coach, internal or external to your organization, and really work through what are the specific steps that you can take to rectify any image issues that you have.

And I think the secret that I tell folks who I work with is that when there is a gap, we have to think about, “What are the experiences tied to that gap?” So, for example, let’s say your reputation is aligned with being really short with your junior-level staff. They don’t feel like they’re coached by you. They don’t feel like they know who you are. They don’t feel mentored. They just feel like you are a task executor, “Do this, get out. Do this, get out.”

Then you’d want to think about, “So what are the moments that I’m interacting with my junior-level staff? And how can I provide a different experience in each time I’m interacting with them?” So, is it giving more time in your one-on-ones? Is it doing a little team outing? Is it scheduling dedicated career conversations?

What are the moments you need to kind of change what your image is, change what your reputation is, and then consistently do that, right? Because it’s not one time. It’s not something you can do one time and everything’s great. Someone needs to see consistent improvement in order for your reputation to actually change.

Pete Mockaitis
I want to zoom in on the simple question part. What are some best practices to make sure that folks actually give us the input and it’s actually true and real?

Kimberly Brown
That’s a hard one, right? And the caveat I’d always say is that every organization has a different temperament for feedback. So, I think that it’s best if you have a good relationship with a person, and you can really sit down and really position the conversation of, “I’m really working on my personal brand, and I’m working on bettering my reputation here. I really want to have an open and candid conversation about your experience with me, and make sure it’s as specific as possible so that I’m able to make some changes.”

So, I think setting the conversation up so someone knows that this is a safe environment for them to provide feedback. This is informal feedback. This is something that you’re taking upon yourself. I think that written feedback sometimes can be hard to get. It’s hard. People sometimes don’t want a paper trail of saying, like, “Hey, well, you messed up in this meeting. And in that moment, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.”

So, if you can have a conversation, even if it’s like a brief 15 minutes, and lead, try and lead as much as possible with giving them both positive and negative, “So, what are two characteristics about my brand that you’d say are positive, and two characteristics that you feel like need improvement? What is one situation I did really well? What is one situation where I did really poorly?”

And then kind of dig in, “So, what was it about that situation where I did poorly? What would you have liked to have seen? What behaviors would have been more helpful for you?” So, it’s kind of giving those follow-up questions to gracefully lead the conversation to get the information that you need. Getting feedback is probably one of the hardest things to get in the workplace, especially really specific, tangible feedback.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, absolutely. And I’m imagining that many of the people you’re having this conversation with are like, “Hmm, no one has ever actually done this with me as a conversation, outside of formal channels, in terms of, okay, sure. We have our regular performance review and this is a thing that happens. But in terms of here is, say, a peer, or even a more senior individual that I report to.”

I guess, as I zoom into that conversation, I’m imagining folks could quite likely have all sorts of guards up and not really give you the raw, dirty, ugly truth about yourself that you really need.

Kimberly Brown
Absolutely. I think that the basis, I think, for these conversations, it’s great if you already have an existing relationship. Ideally, you need some type of relationship because you’ve been doing work and they can answer questions about you. In the most ideal world, it’s someone who works with you frequently.

So, while the conversation is new, you can’t ask someone who really has an interface with you, someone who’s only managed you for a short amount of time. And I think it also could say something if people aren’t willing to have this conversation. So, then you got to keep on poking and try and find some folks who can. Find some folks who would like, “Do you know why so and so probably wouldn’t want to have this conversation with me?”

Pete Mockaitis
Could you tell us, perhaps in some good detail, a tale of someone who did just this and what they discovered and what they did differently as a result?

Kimberly Brown
So, I had a client of mine who is currently a director in big finance, and she was looking to move into a vice president-level role, which was a really big leap at that organization. And she had applied for, I think, two other VP roles, but things just weren’t landing. She was top two, but didn’t get the final offer. And she really had a hard time, again, getting feedback, asking like, “Was there anything else that could have been better?”

Asking the interview panels, asking people who were connected, and she wasn’t really getting anything tangible. It’s like, “You know, this person just was a little bit better or had a tinge more experience here.” It wasn’t anything that was like, “Why didn’t I get it?” It felt like they kind of tossed a coin and just decided on the other candidate.

So, when she came to me, she was very frustrated obviously, because going through these big searches, and the more senior level you go, the more time you invest multiple, multiple rounds of interviews and presentations, so she was exhausted. So, we kind of did what I call like a speaking tour or a listening tour about her.

We made a list of the key areas where she wanted to go in the organization, and there were two main areas. And then we took about 60 days for her to start to schedule conversations and ask some of the pointed questions, like, “What do you know about my brand? What have you heard about my brand? What do you feel is crucial to what you need in this level of the organization? If a role were to open here, what would you be looking for?”

And the combination of asking pointed questions about her and pointed questions about the organization and the type of roles that she’d be interested in, we were able to essentially take all this information, and be like, “Okay, this is how she’s seen. This is what’s needed.”

For her, in particular, people felt like she didn’t have deep relationships. That role was heavily rooted in the organization where a lot of people needed to know that individual. She had to collaborate across the organization. And while people knew her, they felt like she didn’t essentially have roots, or her roots weren’t deep enough in the organization. And it was based on her conversation.

When she’d go into meetings with folks, she kept a very high level, very at the top, top, top, so people didn’t really see her depth of knowledge, understand her relationships. So, she wanted to stay at the organization so we spent some time really mapping out where her relationships needed to be, being much more strategic about more casual conversations, not just when there was a task at hand, so people were really able to get to know her. And she was able to make that transition in about six months.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and what I love about that is that’s the sort of underlying root cause you’re going to have a hard time just stumbling into. Like, you’re either going to have to have someone who’s really looking out for you, say, “Okay, hey, here’s the deal…” You know? You just got to get lucky in terms of that, or you’re going to have to, as this person did, proactively pound the pavement to see what’s going on.

Kimberly Brown
Absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
Because that is a factor, that it’s real, but it’s a little bit difficult to say, and even feels risky in terms of like, “Oh, so you just like the other person more than me.”

As opposed to, “Well, hey, know what? You made some mistakes on this thing and that cost us a lot of money.” Like, that’s very open shut, you know, clear cut, as opposed to this fuzzy, gray zone, nebulous stuff. And I imagine that that’s the only way you might ever surface it is if you really get super proactive and, as you said, a listing tour, we’re getting after it.

Kimberly Brown
A hundred percent. That’s why I say you want to talk up, down, across, like, so you can really get some good facts and start to hear.

I think, in business, we joke and call it a swipe file. So, as a business owner, when you want to launch a new service, you need to hear “What do your customers want?” And you start to swipe their words so that when you market, you can throw those words right back out at them, and they’re like, “Oh, my God, this is exactly what I need. How did you know?” It’s like, “Oh, because I was listening.” And you take all those things.

But I think, as professionals, we need to do the same thing. What is like the common thread, even if it’s said in different ways, but it still means the same thing? How can we figure out what that thing is so we can change our reputation and align with wherever we’d like to go next?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so let’s say we’ve deduced, “Okay, here’s the thing,” what are some of your top tips in terms of getting the buzz, the reputational associations of you to transform, “Well, hey, before, Pete was this. But, you know, now I’m really picking up this other side”?

Kimberly Brown
It’s really about figuring out what are the experiences that are tied to whatever that gap was. So, if we take it back to this client of mine, she needed to have more one-on-one meetings that weren’t just like, “Execute on this task.” Because people only knew her as the functional expert in their area. They didn’t understand that, “No, she’s ready. She’s ready to be over a much larger room and she understands all these different areas.”

So, we had to kind of look around, and be like, “How can we have more conversations, career-based conversations, more casual coffee chat conversations, as well as like tactile conversations?” And that’s how we kind of set up. Because we thought about, “How many experiences, how many moments do people need to change their reputation or change their brand?”

I wish there was a science, where I think in marketing, they say someone needs to see something seven times to know that it happened or understand that, like, something was done.

If they’ve been seeing you as A, A, A, A, A, but now you’re A and B, they need to see it for whatever amount of time. And all of these different things come into play.

If you’re someone who has a very visible role, you may need to just go to that one conference and speak and people see and feel the difference. But if you’re someone who’s kind of behind the scenes, it could be a little, like little micro moments that need to happen over the course of six months or a year for someone to understand like, “Oh, huh, Pete’s different. He’s very different. Like, before he used to do A and now, I always see him do B. Like, wow!”

And, especially, layer on more time if you’re someone who’s made a mistake and that’s attached to your brand. I see that a lot when people have a reputation that’s aligned with not being diligent or not being strategic, someone who makes a decision but isn’t able to see, “Oh, it would have gone bad if we did this instead of that.” Those folks, especially where they’ve had that bad moment, it takes a little bit longer.

Pete Mockaitis
Now when you say, “Oh, Pete was just A, but now he’s A and B,” could you give us some more examples of reputational deficiencies that folks have uncovered from this diligence and how they rectified them?

Kimberly Brown
So, I’d say one of the biggest, the hardest thing to change in the workplace is someone who has been an individual contributor and wants to be a manager. Generally, and especially if you have not had management-level experience, it’s like, “How can you become a manager if you haven’t become a manager?” That’s what people feel like.

So, for that individual, I’d say one of the reputational deficiencies they need to work on is, “How can they at least manage projects? How could they manage their workload better? How can they manage cross-functional teams? So maybe they don’t have a direct report, but it’s people seeing them interact with multiple people across the workplace.

Another deficiency I often see is someone who lacks being strategic, who isn’t able to do that good, better, best. They just kind of make a decision and they just hope it works. And when it doesn’t, then everybody has an idea, but they weren’t able to see that ahead of time. And for them, it’s really slowing down, and allowing people to understand how they did the work.

And in the workplace, I tell people it’s very similar to long division and being able to get partial credit when you were a kid. It’s, “Can someone understand your train of thought and how you got there?” So maybe you didn’t get the right answer, maybe things went wrong, but when someone can understand that you actually went through the steps and it wasn’t just shooting from the hip, that’s also really helpful.

I think the last example I’ll give is also someone who has been shy, someone who’s been behind the scenes, someone who doesn’t share their ideas, someone who doesn’t show that they have an opinion. I think, again, it’s finding those moments, “When can you insert yourself? When can you speak up in rooms you haven’t spoken in? When can you ask for moments to kind of have the light shine on you just a little bit?”

And, I think, for introverts who have no desire to say anything but know they need to, I try and work with them and coach them through planning for those moments, like, “Don’t just expect that it’s going to come to you and, all of a sudden, you’re going to know the right thing to say.”

If you are someone who’s an introverted and shy too, the moment may not come. You need to plan and prepare like, “Okay, in this meeting, this is generally how the meeting flows. This is where I’m going to insert myself, even if I have to clear my throat to get people to pay attention.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, and what’s cool is if you are behaving so starkly opposite of a way that you have historically, it may really be sort of shocking or head-turning in terms of, “Huh?” in a great way in terms of, like, it’s making a strong impression. So, I guess we don’t know the magical number, but if it’s a really 180-type of shift, it might not take that many of those like, “Oh, okay. This is how it is now.”

Kimberly Brown
Absolutely. I think that the bigger the moment, the more the magnitude, sometimes it takes a little less. Folks may want to see it again though, just to make sure it’s consistent, especially if we’re thinking about like that public speaking. Don’t think you’re going to speak out at a town hall one time and then you’ll get promoted. They need to know this is a part of who you are.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, talking about public speaking, you speak about thought leadership as being tremendous for folks’ careers. Can you first define what does thought leadership mean? I lead thoughts, Kimberly, what does that mean?

Kimberly Brown
So, the way I think about thought leadership, it’s not the way that we think about it in terms of like being a John C. Maxwell or a Michael Hyatt or Brene Brown or Oprah Winfrey. When we hear thought leaders, we think of these like big greats who have these massive brands.

But I teach professionals that thought leadership is really you having a way of doing things, having a methodology, having an opinion that is both respected and influential in your organization. And I think it’s one of the hidden factors that help people get into leadership, that people want an opinion.

I explained it today for someone on my team recently, I said that thought leadership is two people of the same position. One of them is invited to the meeting, the other one wasn’t because you don’t need the two people there. But when that meeting happens, they’re like, “You know what? Can we get so and so to join this meeting? I just want to hear what they have to say on this. I think that how they would approach it would just be interesting.”

And if those two people are rated the same, both great at their job, it’s like, “Well, why didn’t you let person A talk about it? Why wasn’t it okay, because that person was there?” But they’re like, “No, no, no. Call B. We need to talk to B. Like, we just need to hear what they think.”

That is, generally, what thought leadership looks like in the workplace. It’s having an opinion, having an approach, having a methodology that people know, like, and trust, and they want more of. And I think it’s important that people start to cultivate a way of doing things that is unique to them, that they can maximize and share.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really great. We had Kara Smith Brown on the show, and, it’s funny, you mentioned these huge names, like, John C. Maxwell, Brene Brown. And I think Kara Smith Brown, as far as I could tell, is one of the preeminent thought leaders when it comes to the sales and marketing of B2B logistics-related products and services.

And so, I mean, there’s a niche, and she’ll point out that she has a point of view in terms of she’ll say, “Well, hey, do you own the email address of everybody in your related market?” And that’s a thing that’s kind of unique, like, “Huh? What do you even mean? How would we do that? What?” And so, she’s got that.

So, she’s got a niche and she’s got a point of view there. And it makes it such that, if you’re considering sales and marketing-related questions in the logistics industry, you very well would say, “It’d be great to have Kara in here right about now.”

Kimberly Brown
Yes, indeed.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, you can have a niche of a niche of a niche in terms of, “This software platform we’re using for this issue in this business, by golly, Kimberly knows the insides and outs of it. So, she should probably be in any meeting where we’re discussing tinkering with it.”

Kimberly Brown
Thought leadership is, I think, a combination of unique viewpoints. It could also be like a deep knowledge in something. So, I think my last corporate job, I served as the director of Diversity Talent Acquisition Strategy. It was an inaugural role at a Fortune 100 company in financial services.

And I remember, if anyone was talking about diversity recruiting, talent acquisition, they would call me. I’d be in one meeting and I’d get a Slack message, “Can you leave that meeting to come to this meeting?” There was no conversation that happened where I was not called out to speak about it because of my knowledge.

And, at that time, it was new. It was something that was so important. People were like, “Oh, no, we need to do this.” And I would get pulled out to talk about the thing. It didn’t matter how big or how small it was. I think it could be knowledge and it could also just be a point of view.

I know, for me, in the career space, I get called in when people want to talk about building reputation, they want to talk about visibility, they want to talk about being a better leader, being a better manager. That’s what people know me for. Everyone has to have like their little thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Indeed, we do need to have our little thing. And it seems that you’re unlikely to have your little thing unless you proactively, thoughtfully, try to identify something distinctive and go deep into it. Because I can imagine it’d be quite possible to just be a great team player and say yes to anything and everything that people want your help with. And then what are you known for? Well, kind of nothing.

Kimberly Brown
Yeah, I call that being like a Jack or Jill of all trades and a master of none. You’re just that go-to person. And I think there’s a point where it’s good to be that go-to person because you learn a lot of things, you meet a lot of people, you have a lot of great relationships. But I found that those folks have a hard time getting promoted.

So, if someone has their sights on climbing whatever proverbial corporate, non-corporate, nonprofit ladder, whatever ladder they want to climb, those folks have the most trouble because people, as you get higher up, people become specialists naturally. They manage a smaller area. So, if you’re attached to all these things, it’s sometimes hard for someone to see you doing the one.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, any pro tips on how we become amazing at a thing that’s distinctive?

Kimberly Brown
I think start thinking with what you like. Start thinking about what you like. Think about what makes you feel good. Like, the title of my book is Next Move, Best Move: Transitioning into a Career You’ll Love, and something I always say is that, if you love your work, it’s a lot easier every single day. And it’s not that you have to love it like you’re like, “Oh, my gosh, I would do this every single day. If I won the lotto, I would still keep the job.”

But I believe in there being an element of happiness and love for your job because we spend 40 plus hours a week at work every single day. So, if you don’t like it, I’m pretty sure your life kind of stinks too, because we can’t make up that big of a block of time. So, I think start with what brings you joy. What are you excited about? What comes easy to you? What are your strengths?

I always tell folks, like, imagine if you were building a career where you got to strengthen your strengths every day. I think, earlier on, I felt like when I worked in higher ed back in the day, when I learned career coaching, we’d always talk about how do we address the weaknesses.

But I’m like, “Imagine if you didn’t have to work on the weaknesses. Like, if they weren’t mission critical to your job.” Like, for me, I am not a data person. If you want to see real tears, start talking to me about Qualtrics, Excel, SPSS, turning the graph into a chart and bringing it to a deck. Mine doesn’t work like that no matter how many tutorials I watch.

I had just decided I’ll hire someone to do that. Even when I’ve worked in corporate, I’m like, “I need an analyst. Someone, who their role is to do this, that’s not what I do.” But my thing is strategy. I’m really great at making a strategic plan, finding whatever the problem is, and building out the roadmap, “How can we solve this?” Whether it’s resourcing, infrastructure, people, “What is it that we need to solve this problem?” I can build up the plan, resources and execute it. That is my thing.

That’s where I spend most of my time. If I had a job, I would never put myself in a position now where I’d be in analytics all day. I’d be miserable. It’s also just not my strength.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find it inspiring?

Kimberly Brown
I believe it’s by Earl Nightingale, and it says, “Your problem is to bridge the gap that exists between where you are not and where you’d like to be.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Kimberly Brown
I’m a little old school. I use a combination of ClickUp and a paper planner.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that folks really love and quote back to you often?

Kimberly Brown
Create a career that creates opportunities for you. I want professionals to have a career that by the function of who they are, how they show up, and what their goals are, opportunities come back to them. It’s not always this rat race of applying for the job and trying to get the opportunity and fighting for it. But who you are, your reputation, your level of visibility, attracts opportunities that you get to benefit from and enjoy.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Kimberly Brown
They can go to KimberlyBOnline.com or BrownLeadership.com.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Kimberly Brown
I would want them to, at least, ask one person, what are three characteristics they would use to describe how they show up every single day at work.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Lovely. Kimberly, thank you.

Kimberly Brown
You’re very welcome. Thanks for having me.

Dec 04
0

1115: How to Earn and Keep Your Next Promotion with Mark Thompson

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Mark Thompson reveals the principles of readiness that he’s used to help aspiring CEOs get the top job.

You’ll Learn

  1. The one behavior that makes you more CEO-like
  2. Why to take on your boss’ problems
  3. The question that dramatically improves your appeal

About Mark

Mark Thompson is a globally recognized authority on CEO succession, executive readiness, and high-stakes leadership transitions. He has led more than a hundred board-level engagements to prepare C-suite successors to step confidently into enterprise leadership. He is the founding chairman and CEO of the Chief Executive Alliance and the CEO Leadership Plan Review (LPR). Previously, he served as chief executive of the CEO Academy, a SHRM company, in partnership with Wharton and McKinsey.

Earlier in his career, Thompson reported directly to founder Charles “Chuck” Schwab, serving as executive producer of Schwab.com, the first large-scale digital platform for online investing. In 2021, he was ranked by Marshall Goldsmith as the #1 CEO Coach, and in 2023 he was inducted into the Thinkers50 Coaching Legends.

Resources Mentioned

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Mark Thompson Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Mark, welcome!

Mark Thompson
Hey, great to be here. I love your work.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. Well, I love your work. I’m excited to talk about becoming CEO Ready, or just advancement ready, in general. But first I got to hear, you are the guy who calls Marshall Goldsmith regularly, asking him key questions. Tell us about this.

Mark Thompson
I mean, there’s nothing more powerful than to be held accountable about something that is your goal, and yet we don’t follow our own goals. So, we will set up a prompt that will be about, in his case and mine, “Did you do your exercise today? Did you tell your spouse that you love her? Do you make sure that you’re reaching out to your kids? Have you made progress writing the book?” “Oops!” Well, you can only lie about that for so long to a good friend.

So, there’s nothing better than to have kind of that loving critic in your life who is sharing with you the time, the kind of the precious gift of saying, “Hey, I’m going to support you. These are your goals, though, dude, because you need to show up for them.” And so, that’s what we do. We’ve done that for many, many, many years. And people will ask us, “Well, aren’t you guys supposed to be like master coaches?” And it’s like, “Well, it’s called a practice, whether you’re a musician or anything else.”

And so, what is so interesting is how you drift, and we all have that. That’s something we all have in common. So, think about that like personal board of directors or a set of people that you might think about setting up a series of goals that you’ve had for a while, and see if they can help you keep yourself accountable.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yes, that’s exactly what I asked Marshall. It’s like, so you’re like the Mr. Top Dog coach here and you’re saying you have a person call you every day to say, “Did I do my best to…etc.?” And I thought that was pretty inspiring in terms of we humans can all benefit from some of that.

Mark Thompson
Also I love his framing because it’s not, “Did you accomplish the task of being happy? Did you make sure that all of these things were necessarily done?” It’s really more that life is about making progress, isn’t it, towards your goals? And so, the idea there is “Did I do my best towards this particular objective? And am I making progress?”

I mean, that’s what makes a life worth living, is when you kind of feel like you’re making progress, not that you always have to have the brass ring every day. So, his inspiration really was something that, actually, very few people do, but it’s surprisingly powerful when you know you’re going to get that call.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it is. Well, right now, I got a buddy who’s trying to lose some weight, and I said, “Hey, I want to try something out here. Maybe this will become a service I offer or build an empire to offer.”

Mark Thompson
Indeed.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s, “Send me a screenshot of your calorie-tracking app every evening when you’re done eating for the day.”

Mark Thompson
Darn.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, sure enough, it’s like…

Mark Thompson
Busted!

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, he knows it’s coming. And so, you know, most days there’s a pretty solid caloric deficit. And so, that’s brick by brick, that’s how you build the thing.

Mark Thompson
It is. And, you know, it’s not about being perfect. It’s about making progress. So, I really admire the idea that, if you can be coachable enough to just take feedback, not on the other person’s goals, but on yours, that’s the thing that’s amazing about it. Marshall and I, for about 700 hours during the pandemic, we had these small groups that got together, and they were at all levels, all incredibly interesting people, highly accomplished actors, celebrities, CEOs, people from all walks of life.

Well, you know, it doesn’t matter whether you’re the most entry-level executive, or you’re a person working in a call center, or a teller at a desk, it is common to all of us to aspire for things that we’d love to accomplish in our lives. And yet, without that accountability partner, we don’t actually make that kind of progress or set aside the steps or time for it.

So, I couldn’t be more excited about the fact that we’re talking about this today because that’s probably the single most effective thing we could do to be even showing up awesomely in our job, is to, let’s say, just for a moment, let’s do a little check in. We’ll do a feed forward, “What could I be doing to make your life easier, boss?”

She or he is being judged by their bosses. It’s hard to feel empathetic about that, but they also have the same nerve-wracking transitions and reviews and feedback that they’re getting. So, hey, could we go and actually ask, “How could I make your life better today? How could I make it easier? How could I do a better job of showing up for you?”

Also, with your peers, this is a way to be kind of, in a sense, CEO-like. When I’m coaching CEOs to be ready for the job, they’re highly accomplished people. They’ve been doing a lot of successful impact in their companies or in the industry. But what’s going to really separate them apart is whether you’re willing to really help the organization move ahead, whether it’s your boss, your board, or an entire community organization.

So, this idea of actually doing the check-ins, people are astonished. They’re astonished when you’re asking them, “How can I do a better job of showing up for you?” That alone gives you disproportionate and outsized points with people, “I never thought Mark would, really? He’s not going to improve at that.” Like, “Well, how could I be a better listener, honey?” “Wait, what? You’re asking me?”

And so, I’d say that that ends up being, it’s disarming as well as empowering. And the good news is you don’t actually have to do all of that stuff. You can prioritize, right? Asking is really worth it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, certainly. And I am a big believer that I have been asked before and I have been the asker, and it’s magic, it’s like, “Oh, well, thank you so much. Well, let’s see.” And it’s very beautiful.

Mark Thompson
It is.

Pete Mockaitis
So, let’s talk about your book, CEO Ready. You’ve coached a bunch of folks and you put together this book. Can you tell us any particularly surprising or counterintuitive discoveries you’ve made about us humans and becoming ready to take on the CEO job or just a bigger job?

Mark Thompson
Yes, I think that latter question is really what makes this the most profound surprise for me is because it ends up being relatable at all levels. Whenever you’re trying to, maybe, acquire the next level of responsibility, or step into the next role, or even be noticed and attractive for that next role, it’s important to do exactly what I’ve learned the titans of the world do when they’re being considered for the biggest job of their lives, running the biggest companies in the world. The very same attribute.

And it’s interesting, they often have a harder time than the most of the rest of us might because of the level of success that they’ve had, and that maybe overconfidence that they have in thinking that they’ve arrived at becoming a CEO as a destination. Your next promotion isn’t a reward for all you’ve done. It’s an opportunity to learn how you can now contribute at a higher level of skill.

In other words, the biggest surprise I learned is, no matter how far you’ve come, there’s always a little bit more to learn. And if you’re willing to ask, and if you’re willing to invest the extra time, effort, and humility to get better, that’s what you need to be promotable, to be attractive in that next job. That humility is attractive and disarming, very much like getting feedback.

And here’s the twist on it. It’s not that you’re humble because you’re afraid. It’s not that you’re humble because you don’t want to get out of bed because it’s too risky. That’s not the kind of humility related to fear. The humility has to do with being curious about what will it take to be successful at this next gig.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. Yes. And I see that connection between the humility and the curiosity is because, implied with the, “What will it take?” is the underlying assumption that, “What I’ve already been doing is not exactly perfect.”

Mark Thompson
Yeah, “I’d hate to think about it that way, so I don’t.” And if you do, the interesting thing is you get huge points for that. It’s one of the things that really differentiates people. Corie Barry, when she was being approached to think about being the CEO candidate, walking in the legendary footsteps of her predecessor who had rescued Best Buy as a Big-Box store, when he approached her, she sent him a seven-page expose, saying, “On the first page here, this is how I could really get the idea that I should be CEO, but I needed to work on these other six pages.”

And instantly almost, the board and he said, “You’re our gal.” The typical response for most folks is to either celebrate with arrogance, or celebrate with maybe denial that we have stuff to work on. And that we’re not quite ready. That’s the reason I really frame this as, “Are we ready for this?” It’s a matter of always preparing and practicing, and then having that sense of inquiry that allows you to understand what’s going to be needed next in that job.

I think a lot of people think that, as they go through their career, it kind of adds up to the next job. And now what you need to also is be kind of reaching and thinking about what is it going to take to be successful and to contribute success for your organization in that next role. I think that’s the difference, “Is it owed to me? Do you deserve it?” Probably.

“Are you ready?” No, because you don’t really know what’s going to be needed. It’s not that the boss who leaves even needs a mini me. They probably need something mini better. And that would be what, really, we found is kind of it’s both an enabler and it’s almost a secret career killer. It’s a blind spot to say that we were kind of avoiding it, being able to be talking about, “What do I need to learn for this next job?” It’s actually something that’s admired usually by leadership.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I love that a lot. We had the CEO of Korn Ferry on the show, Gary Burnison, and he talked about that very same concept. I think he might have called it, was it leadership agility or learning agility? One of the top competencies associated with successful executives is just this, like, “Huh, what do I need to know and how do I learn it?” And by being not a know-it-all, but a learn-it-all, you serve yourself very well for advancement.

Mark Thompson
Right on. I’d say that ends up being something that differentiates you from the crowd. And then also this idea that we’ve been talking about here, which has to do with being interested in making your boss successful, “What are really the attributes that has made that individual able to get through their reviews? And how are they being rated? And what’s their span of control?”

Because then, you can also do something that you’ve been hired to be in your swim lane, but to be really interesting for the next role, you need to think about all the swim lanes that would be under the responsibility of the job that you would get if you were promoted.

And so, to think more expansively and empathically about what it will take to be successful in that next job, in addition to your current one, is something that aligns you, really, as being an easier pick. They’d rather have an internal person who’s got that context and then has had the extra temerity to put in the effort, run some other drills so that they’re ready for that next job.

It’s usually something that we think is a privilege or a prize, and it’s really more matter of actually earning it again, which is why our subtitle is how to earn and keep it, is because what’s needed usually for the next person in the job that you might get promoted into is probably not everything that that person currently is doing. It’s something else, something more, something different.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, and keep it is striking. I believe that there is some spooky data associated with, I don’t know if you want to call it a bounce rate, but people rise to CEO and then they exit kind of fast. Can you unpack this?

Mark Thompson
Boom. It’s been happening at a higher rate than ever before in history. The other thing that really led Harvard Business Review to approach Byron and I. Byron’s at NASDAQ, and he coaches boards and helps them. And I’m the guy who’s known to coach CEOs. And we’ve been seeing a turnover rate like never before.

And, in fact, if you see some of the research that they’ve done and others, the boards that pick a new CEO are often, half of them, are disappointed within 18 months. Not that they’re fired yet. And the level of activism, which are these kinds of shareholders who make a complaint that, “We’re not doing well enough as a public company,” will often, well, I’ll put it this way.

Five years ago, if you had a knock at the door from an activist investor, there was maybe a one in 20 chance that you’d lose your job as CEO. Today, it’s maybe 20% of the time. And if you’re at a big brand, it’s 40% of the time you’re out. So, it’s almost too late because they haven’t been expressing the alignment with all of their stakeholders, which is what we can all do at any level in our career.

This is what’s so portable about the principles of readiness that, think about all the people who have a say in choosing you for that next role, and think about all the people who have to be impressed or have to ratify the approval of you making an advancement, and see what you can learn about each of those responsibilities, each of those stakeholders.

For a CEO, it ends up being, “I need to learn about those shareholders and those pesky analysts and activists, and my board, if there’s a board of directors. I need, of course, to be better aligned with my CEO in whatever dramas she is going through or he’s going through. I need to know what the HR department’s doing, and I need to be able to think about my peers across the C-suite.”

In other words, if I’m in the job of CFO, I need to be thinking about my head of marketing and all the other people, the head of legal, the head of operations. They’re going to have to weigh in a little bit on voting me into office because I’m going to go from peer to chief if I’m lucky. And if I’m just a competitor. So, think about how, you know, often when at any level in the business, when it may be your first time manager, you are kind of, in a sense, in competition and collaboration with all of your other managers around you, your peers.

And if you’re to be picked out of the group, you can’t just be the one fighting for your own department. You have to be one who’s also seen as saying, “You know, Pete’s work is amazing, and I’m going to enable Pete’s work. I’m the better option. But I’ve got to prove that. And I’ve got to prove it to Pete, because maybe he’s not going to decide whether I get the job.” But it can often kill the prospects if you’re known as the person who’s just about me.

And so, thinking about your ascent when they’re banking the selection process is important, “How does this guy, Mark or Pete, show up compared to the others in terms of being able to play with others?”

Pete Mockaitis
Very well. Very good. Well, so I like your story about Best Buy a lot. Could you dive into another story that illustrates some of the principles and the best practices and the top things you recommend for folks, as someone who was maybe not so ready, but they dug in, they did some key things and away they went?

Mark Thompson
Well, you know, one of the people that I admire so much in technology is Cristiano Amon, who is the CEO of Qualcomm, one of the biggest chip companies in the world, known for patents, technical excellence, was running the biggest division of Qualcomm. What was so impressive about him when I did the 360, which is this idea that I’m suggesting that all of us who are listening to this program do, get some inputs from people all around you and see what you can do better.

And it’s interesting. He was actually the most insightful in self-reflection. He says that the job of trying to advance to the next level of responsibility is a job which means that you’re constantly, once you’re in your comfort zone, you’re now pushing yourself beyond it. I mean, once you feel like, “Well, we’ve got this stable. We’ve got this. Now we’re saying, okay, let’s take on more. Well, how exactly would we do that?”

And he had a wonderful way of expressing it. He said, “If you aren’t also trying to test to your edge of incompetence, I’m not sure you deserve to be here a year from now.” You need to stretch and say, “Okay, this is where I am today. I’m a mediocre trumpet player, but I just get my jollies every time I’m sent a sheet music that says intermediate from beginner. I’ve graduated. Everybody wants to be able to do that. What’s it going to take to push yourself just a little further than you’re comfortable?’”

Once again, I think we often can look at our careers as thinking we’ve done a lot of work, we’ve done it well, and we do deserve the advancement, that’s for sure. And yet this next job is going to be involving maybe getting out of your comfort zone in addition to being curious and then doing some skill building.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Okay. I like that a lot. Well, then can we walk through some key steps? So, we’ve got a mindset associated with humility and being of service and trying to help those who are higher-up succeed. And then if we’ve got that in place, what are some of the other top things you recommend we do?

Mark Thompson
Well, I’d say that one of the things that would be helpful is to think about yourself as a utility infielder. In sports, you know, that’s the person they throw onto the baseball field who can play more than one position.

So, if there are other types of opportunities, projects, collaborations with teams in other parts of the organization, in other words, kind of branch out across and see if there isn’t a way for you to get support from your boss to be able to help her or him with their reputation and the position of the department by supporting your division or having involvement in a new strategic initiative. So, you don’t have unlimited energy. You obviously don’t have unlimited time.

But to show the interest, I’d say that your punch list should be for this next year as we look at this wonderful year ahead, if there’s any resolution you had, it would be, “What else could I be doing in this current organization that would allow me to expand my experiences, my impact, my reputation? And what would those be?”

And what that does is it allows you also to test, “What do I really am interested in?” You’re going to try some things, “Oh, well, I don’t need to do that again.” Others, you might find as even another step in your career path. So, to be very intentional about setting your goals for the coming year to be one where you’re thinking about growing and getting noticed by expanding what you volunteer to do throughout the organization.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, there’s many directions, as you mentioned, that we might choose to take on and grow in. Do you have a top listing of the key things to demonstrate, or your book cover has a checkbox with a check mark in it, like the key boxes that we want to check and show others that we’ve checked?

Mark Thompson
Absolutely. So, number one is this idea that you’re thinking about the success of your boss, which we noted a moment ago. What is it that will make them successful in the year ahead? What is it that you could be contributed to that would allow them to be able to build their reputation? So that’s step number one.

Step number two is to really start to map some scenarios so that you can reach out across the department or other organizations so that you can get more experiences within that organization. Step three is to think about what kind of skill-building that might involve. Maybe you need to take an extra class. Maybe you’re going to learn something more about AI. Maybe there’s an opportunity for you to double down on a skill that you want to complete, which requires some fluency in something that you need to accomplish.

The next step is then to think about the stakeholders who are going to be making the decision, “How can I spend time with the people that I know who they’re going to ask about whether I should be advanced or not?” And start to find reasons to hit them in the cafeteria or go to lunch or spend some time with all those who have an impact on the decision that’s going to be made, those stakeholders that are so essential?

And then make sure that you are part of a regular feedback process in your organization. What I found, and you’ll see in the book, is that there’s at least two dozen types of psychological and personality assessments that people can take that are often brought in by the HR department to try to see, “Do you really have the temperament and the background that we need for the next job?”

This is definitely the case at the C-suite and the CEO level. There’s probably more tests out there than ever. And so, what I like to do is give people a sense of patience in undergoing that kind of activity of taking an assessment or getting some feedback. But it can be a gift because you can learn so much about yourself by using these tools.

You just have to calibrate for the fact that, when you do get feedback, especially from assessments, that it’s not necessarily an attempt to find the truth about you. It’s an attempt for you to become more self-aware of what perceptions you might generate in other people’s thinking about you.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well said. Well said.

Mark Thompson
In other words, it’s not the truth, right? I mean, when it comes to psychology, there’s never an absolute 100% correlation coefficient. It’s really more a matter of, “So, if I’m leaving the impression that’s like this, why are people having that perception?” If you can open your heart and mind to that, and it’s not easy, that makes you really incredibly accelerate your progress quickly.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I like that a lot because many times the way these tools, these assessment reports’ outputs are phrased, it’s like, “Oh, on this dimension, on this construct, on this competency, you are at a 2.3.” It was like, “Oh, no, that’s a low number. I am bad at this.” Just to remember, “Ah, the assessment is not actually capable of telling me that I’m bad at this. It’s only capable of telling me the people’s perception of me on this.”

Mark Thompson
Thank you. Yes, exactly. Right. And I think that’s the interesting thing about integrating that feedback into your life, because you might feel that that’s a statement of the facts and that might hurt, the way you’re describing it. It’s interesting how perceptions are actually harder to change on the part of others than the facts are.

You can actually demonstrably become a better listener in meetings six, seven, eight times, and on the ninth time, blurt, interrupt, get short, and then they’ll say, “Yeah, no, Mark never listens.” And part of that is on you and parts on them because part of it is that it can be a little more convenient to stereotype each other, “And he just, Mark just talks and nobody listens. That’s just how he is.”

And then, “I don’t have to really, if Mark’s my boss, then I may not have to really invest in trying to find my voice and finding a way to speak to power and scroll up the courage to talk to that person.” So, it kind of lets them off the hook, because I’m just not a nice guy. The perceptions, too, also kind of stick for the reason that we don’t practice them with enough rigor and enough regularity.

That’s why readiness is really about a practice. I mean, you know, if you’re a musician or you play a sport or there’s some skill that you’ve developed, you’ve probably noticed that you get better when you practice it. And for me, particularly, if I don’t, I atrophy really fast. So, I think that ends up being the opportunity that most people are facing. If you want to be ready for the next gig, then practice and see how you might be able to show up differently.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. I’m curious, when you talk about this issue of perception, it’s tricky. We, human beings, we think what we think, we perceive what we perceive, we form opinions and judgments of others, and sometimes they’re accurate and sometimes they’re not. But, nonetheless, individuals’ perceptions will influence or decide whether or not we do advance. So, do you have any pro tips on just common mistakes that make other people think less of us that we should be on the lookout for to avoid?

Mark Thompson
Absolutely. And the context ends up being in the book, with respect to this notion of what you’re describing for really reaching out across, because if you’re going to be a chief executive, you’re going to lead a whole organization. The biggest blind spot ends up being saying that, “Because I was great at what I was doing in this part of the company, and I assume that I understand all the other executive functions in the company.”

And so, to be able to slow down and consider what is really the context in which people are expressing their value set or their needs based on, as I mentioned earlier, they might be the general counsel, they might be a lawyer, they’re going to talk a little differently than a chief marketing officer. They’re going to show up in a way that frames what they care the most about.

In the case of the lawyer, it’s probably, “Well, we need to be in compliance, and we need to make sure that people are safe, and that we don’t get ahead of ourselves.” And the marketing person was saying, “Yeah, but we need to reach everybody, and we need to be able to have impact, and we need to be able to light up people’s emotions,” and you’re both right.

And so, to the extent that you can start to be willing to learn a little bit of the language, and I talk about kind of conversational, you don’t have to be totally fluent in the language of all the other stakeholders. But I think what happens is that people will very much appreciate your interest in them. People appreciate when you ask about their functional area, when you are, we talked about curiosity earlier.

If you really show that, you get a lot of points in terms of their perceptions of your openness, your intelligence, and your appeal because you’ve talked about them, and you’ve talked about what they care about, and you’ve been able to explore in a deeper way what lights them up.

I wrote a prior book called Admired, which I have here, which is entirely about this, where we looked at the most admired people in companies. And what we found is that we all expect to be valued, respected, and admired for what we contribute. And we want to be valued, admired, and respected even for our intentions, not even what we’ve accomplished, but because we have good intentions.

And then we asked people, we did a national survey on this, then we asked people, “Well, how well have you come to understand what the people who you are relying on for that feedback, what they value, and what they’re interested in? I mean, do you know how they want to be valued and admired and respected?”

And the process of actually finding out what that is for your boss, for your peers, for the people who have impact on your boss, is an incredibly engaging and exciting prospect for…People love talking about themselves. They love talking about their journey and then, all of a sudden, they cut you slack when you share your point of view.

There’s very little of that. There’s not enough today, I think, in society of that kind of conversation of trying to understand. Steve Covey, who wrote, The 7 Habits of Most Effective People, and is famous for all of that, he used to always talk about, “Seek to understand before seeking to be understood.” And that would be game changer.

That would change the stakes, you know, “Once I’ve demonstrated that I’ve heard you and that I understand you.” I think people are reluctant to do that because I may have to, it sometimes implies that I agree with you by saying that I understand what you’re saying. And it’s not the case. And what I’m saying is, “I respect and admire and value what you’re saying. I’ll decide later whether I agree. But I’m not giving anything up.”

I think people think it’s zero sum that way. It’s either my way or your way. And I think if you consider, why it is people are thinking the way they are, why your boss is triggered by something, it’s probably because she or he is being judged by their bosses for something that you could help with that would get you promoted.

Pete Mockaitis
Right. And when you’re having these conversations to try to gain this understanding, are there any of your favorite go-to questions you love here?

Mark Thompson
One of the things that’s probably the most surprising is, “Who do they admire?” It’s interesting, when I asked you that question and I asked you to kind of form a picture in your head or your listeners right now, think about somebody that you really, truly value, admire, and respect, who you know, not just someone from history, but someone who touched your heart that you feel that way about.

And what’s nice about that is you can know a person really well and ask them, “I could ask Pete who I don’t know at all, ‘Who do you admire?’” Neither way would it be creepy. But it is actually rather intimate because people give you a very deep answer. They’ll talk about that mom who had endless patience, who supported the family and exhibited the kind of grit and effort to support to make this family successful.

And then you’ll ask them, “So, what is it about her that you’d like to be?” They’re almost always anyone you describe that you admire is someone who’s exhibiting attributes that you aspire for. And, all of a sudden, you ask this of a board member or your boss or someone that you can’t maybe say, “Could we sit down and have a deeper conversation about what drives you?” It’s like, “No, you’re not going to get that option.”

But if you ask who they admire, and really lean into it, people love talking about that person. And if you’re listening deeply, you’re going to find out that, “Wow, my boss really, okay, she really admires grit. She really admires the hours that I put in, maybe kind of even more than something else that I thought she needed.”

So, the people we admire is a metaphor for the goals and aspirations of the person you’re asking, which is something that we learned from our prior research. And it’s certainly true for great CEOs who go from having one boss, a supervisor, to 12 bosses, the board. And so, they have to do that with everyone, “Who do you admire? What’s driving you? What are you looking for in my job?” And those are the ones that get the job and keep it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. Okay. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Mark Thompson
“You’ve got to be the change that you wish to see.” Often, that’s attributed to Gandhi. I don’t think that’s actually a precise quote from him. But to role-model what we’re seeking or hoping is a very hard and high standard to hold yourself to. And yet that’s what really is the most convincing.

If you’re going to be in a position, in a role right now, where you’re asking people to do things, well, how are we showing up that represents that so that ends up being a reinforcement, not hypocrisy? So, that’s one, I think, that’s very powerful in leadership.

Pete Mockaitis
And can you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Mark Thompson
Yes, we did a study on one of the most surprising attributes of who you can stand to work with. And many situations in which people work, collaboration is really, really hard. And one of the studies that was conducted by Bonita Thompson, actually at Vanderbilt, who owns the construct in collaboration, found out that you can actually work with someone you don’t like, but you can’t work for somebody you don’t trust, and there’s miles difference between the two.

Because there’s plenty of times where we’re working with people that we don’t exactly feel great about being with. You can’t always like everyone all the time. But if you feel like you’re in a situation where there isn’t that bridge of trust, that there isn’t kind of at least a mutually held trust that we’re both sharing the same goal, that’s an absolute game changer in terms of demotivating folks to work together.

I think a lot of folks find that surprising. It’s like, “Really? You can work for somebody that you don’t like?” I think that’s really important to understand, because the circumstances of work today are certainly stressful enough that that can often be the case.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And a favorite book?

Mark Thompson
My favorite book was Contact, actually.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, about the aliens?

Mark Thompson
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s fun. So, I was like, “So, is that about networking or building relationships?” “Oh, no, that’s the alien movie.”

Mark Thompson
I knew you wouldn’t see that coming. I thought it would be obvious or not be obvious. What’s interesting about that one is, actually, there actually is a way to segue anything back to the dialogue of leadership, right?

Because we talk about wanting innovation, we talk about wanting to have out-of-the-box thinking, and I think often the reason most organizations and most of us actually have a hard time innovating is because it feels a little bit like you’re talking about little green men or something that is not relevant, and so we instantly reject it.

And we don’t see what, you know, if we dig a little deeper, while we’re hoping for creative change, we’re hoping for innovation, sometimes, you know, once we hear it, we reject it so soundly that we never do advance. And I see a lot of organizations lose their way because they don’t take a little bit more of a Star Trek approach to saying, “Okay, it’s not here in the known universe or in physics, but if we really want to innovate, if we really want to be creative with something, we start there.”

My most actionable fun book on this topic, it was Creativity, Inc., where the folks at Pixar talked about making billion-dollar bets on movies. I mean, that’s the riskiest thing. And they always started there. They always said, “Okay, we’re going to hold our brainstorming sessions in three rooms. And the first room is going to be the one where “no holds barred” on the creativity.” So as crazy as it could be.

There’s nobody shooting anything down there, and they capture all that. It’s not until the next session in the next room that they start to curate, “Okay, so how do these ideas fit with what we’re good at doing and what we have the talent here to do, and that we think that we could accomplish in the time that we have?” And then you start to winnow it down to those framings.

And it’s not till a third meeting where you’re saying, “We’re not doing that. We’re not doing that.
We’re not doing that. We’re just doing this. We’re just doing this,” and they start to winnow it down. I think we close too early on our brainstorming sessions. And do that with your career. Think about kind of what would be the boldest thing you could do in the new year and how you might go about it.

The critics aren’t invited to that first meeting. It’s really more about you continue to imagine, because the self-critique and the critique by others doesn’t usually get you to first base or even second base. So, let yourself go nuts about the year that’s coming forward, and then think about then how to get a little more practical about how to operationalize that in the context of a real life, and then set it into goals going forward.

And that’s how I’ve found the highest achievers, those who become CEO-ready or ready for the next gig, kind of, are able to open their heart and mind and start to really put a plan together, because you deserve that. You really do deserve that if you aspire to be ready.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Mark Thompson
The tool that I use to be the most awesome thing in my job was the 360. Get one, have one, be a part of it, make sure that you get the regular feedback in all directions. I always had to breathe deeply to realize that maybe not all the feedback I got would be ideal. And it’s always been an unlock. It’s always been an accelerator. It’s always been something that allows me to kind of get better faster than anyone else when I was wanting to be promoted so I could get noticed.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Mark Thompson
The habit is gratitude. It’s not something that we naturally, or at least I naturally, leap to every day. Be grateful for the people and the opportunities you have. Actually, Hubert Joly, going back to the Best Buy story, he said, “Pressure is a privilege.” If you have the pressure of doing something really hard, that’s also an opportunity to be kind of grateful for that, “Well, I’m getting a chance to do this. It’s hard. It’s really challenging, but I get a chance to really make a difference.”

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that people quote often and you’re known for?

Mark Thompson
What I’m known for is you can’t really scale your organization or scale your ambitions any faster than you can scale yourself. You’ve got to be able to invest in a way, in yourself, before you can expect it ever to be an outcome in that wonderful, cool company of yours.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. And, Mark, if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Mark Thompson
I’d point them to ChiefExecutiveAlliance.com or just look up CEO Ready, which is just being released.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Mark Thompson
I think that you deserve a promotion in this next year. Map a plan. Think about that as strategically as your biggest project and get some loving critics around you. Get some feedback, and most of that from your boss, and then put it in motion. That’s what you deserve.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Mark, thank you.

Mark Thompson
Thank you.

Oct 13
0

1101: Navigating the Four Seasons of Leadership with Carolyn Dewar

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Carolyn Dewar shares insights from top CEOs on how to master each season of your leadership career.

You’ll Learn

  1. How to avoid the nearly universal blind spot of leaders
  2. How
 to thrive in any leadership role
  3. How to nail your first impressions and set the right tone

About Carolyn

Carolyn Dewar is a senior partner in McKinsey’s San Francisco office. She coleads McKinsey’s CEO Excellence service line, advising many Fortune 100 CEOs how to maximize their effectiveness and lead their organizations through pivotal moments. She has published more than 30 articles in the Harvard Business Review and McKinsey Quarterly and is a frequent keynote speaker. She is also the founder of and faculty member for many of McKinsey’s client master classes for sitting CEOs and those preparing for the role.

Resources Mentioned

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Carolyn Dewar Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Carolyn, welcome!

Carolyn Dewar
It’s great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. I’m excited to be chatting about CEOs. You and your co-authors studied 200 of them to write this book, A CEO for All Seasons. Tell us, how was scheduling all those interviews? That must’ve been a nightmare.

Carolyn Dewar
It was quite busy. These are very, very busy people. So, certainly, we were a taker on the calendars. Whenever they offered, we said, “Great,” and we made it work.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’d love to hear, so engaging with all these folks, any really fascinating or surprising discoveries bubbling up here?

Carolyn Dewar
Oh, my goodness. I mean, there’s so many we can dive in. First of all, it wasn’t just 200 CEOs. We tried to find the best 200 CEOs, and there’s lots of questions around what makes best, but we wanted to take advice from people who were awesome at their job, right, which is, I love the whole ethos of the conversations you have.

And so, we were looking at these folks who’d all been in role for at least six years, had been outperforming and doing really, really well, and there were so many surprises when we talked to them. I mean, we can dig in. I guess one would be, you would expect folks who are so successful like that, you would wonder if maybe they’re a little arrogant, maybe they think they know everything.

It turns out the longer they were in role and the more successful they were, the really good ones actually realized that they still needed to be learning. And so, they were curious, they asked questions, they were always trying to find new information. Maybe that’s why they’ve ended up doing so well, but they never stopped learning and growing and trying to get even better.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, beautiful. I mean, we’re all about that here. Well, since you brought it up, I have to ask, your research revealed that the average CEO, does that mean not the super high performers, or does that mean a representative group of your CEOs scored themselves higher than their boards and their direct reports? Can you dig into that a little bit? Are you suggesting that the top CEOs don’t fall for that or this is prevalent with this grouping as well?

Carolyn Dewar
So that research and survey was sent out to all CEOs, all CEOs, in general. And we were asking them to assess themselves around the elements of the role and how well they did. And it’s fascinating. It’s the only time I’ve done research where the answer was 100% of the CEOs that we surveyed scored themselves higher than the direct reports scored those CEOs, 100%, which is fascinating, right?

And it says, gosh, when you’re in these roles, I don’t think it’s that you suddenly think you’re amazing. I think a lot of people stop telling you the truth. You run the risk of being in a bit of an echo chamber. Are people really giving you input on whether things are going well, how it’s landing? And so, for all CEOs at all 10 years, it’s really important to think about, “How do you break through that echo chamber and make sure you’re listening and learning and growing?”

And the CEOs, the high performers we looked at, though, they didn’t hit that sophomore slump that you see from other CEOs, where they got off to a good start and then it whittles away. These are all folks that continue to go from strength to strength. And that’s why we wanted to really understood what they did differently.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, boy, I think we could chat for half an hour about this alone because, yes, that is striking whenever 100% of anything happens in this kind of a research, that is wild. And we had Dr. Tasha Eurich on the show talking about how we’re not as self-aware as we think, and here’s a dimension. When you say score themselves, could you give us an example? Like, score them on like what kind of dimensions or what kind of questions are we talking about this scoring?

Carolyn Dewar
So, it’s very much grounded in research we’ve done on, “What is the CEO role and what does it mean to do it well?” So, there’s six parts of the role. You set direction, you align your organization, manage your team, your board, external stakeholders and yourself. And on each of those, we have a view of “What does really great look like?” And we had each of the CEOs score themselves on how well they thought they were doing. We had their direct reports do it and we had their boards do it.

Now it’s interesting. For new CEOs, the board often actually thinks they’re doing a better job than the newbie does, which maybe isn’t a surprise because you’re new, you’re a little bit nervous, and you’re probably at the peak of the honeymoon period where the board thinks you’re great because they just picked you, so they obviously think you’re great.

So, there’s these different moments where the self-awareness flexes and flows. But the most important thing we were trying to figure out is, “What are those blind spots? And what do you do to make sure that you get ahead of them and you don’t fall into those traps?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, why don’t we just go right there? What are some of the most common blind spots?

Carolyn Dewar
Well, the reason we anchored this work in the four seasons of the CEO is it turns out a third of CEOs don’t even make it past three years. So, they get out of their gates and they stumble. And I think it was 68% of CEOs, who were experienced that we talked to, said the job actually wasn’t what they thought it was when they started, and they weren’t maybe as well prepared as they thought they were.

And all of that got us to thinking, “Gosh, isn’t it important to help people understand each step of the job, right? When you’re a candidate, when you’re new, in your middle years, and then as you’re thinking about finishing strong and exiting, there’s different expectations at each of those stages that your investors have, your employees have, your organization has, and what do you need to be doing as a CEO in each of those?

And so, we kind of went through and said, “What do the greats do? What are the blind spots at each of those stages?” So happy to dig in on any of those, but that’s the four seasons, essentially, is this cycle that CEOs and companies go through.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yes, we are going to hit the four seasons. That’s a clever little metaphor. It reminds me of the “Gilmore Girls,” spring, summer, fall, and winter. But perhaps, first, could you share with us, what is the biggest mismatch or surprise CEOs have in terms of, “Oh, wait, this is the job?”

Carolyn Dewar
I think when you dig into that 68% who say, “Gosh, the job was not what I thought it was,” if I think about these six aspects of the job, the first three, anyone with a big role has done. You’ve set direction and strategy, you’ve figured out how to align your organization, your talent, your culture, and you’ve worked with the team. So, I think on those three elements, CEOs are like, “Well, yes, it’s new, it’s bigger scale, it’s more complicated, but I’ve done it before.”

The other three parts of the job is the ones they feel least prepared for. Suddenly, you’re engaging with the board, you’re working with your board, you have 12 bosses. It’s the only job where you actually have 12 bosses. All the external stakeholders, you’re suddenly the public face of the company. There’s a million people with opinions externally on what you should be doing. Especially in the last few years, we’ve seen a lot of CEOs struggle with, “What issues do you get involved in? How do you interact with government and regulators and all these things?”

And then the last part is your own personal operating model, which is how you spend your time, how you show up as a leader. I think a lot of CEOs are just overwhelmed in the first year about the magnitude of the role. There is just endless demands on your time. And it’s up to you to be really quite ruthless about, “What are those critical few things that if you don’t do them, no one else can, right?”

The mindset on that is “Do what only you can do.” What’s the work that only the CEO can do? Because, frankly, that alone is going to fill your whole week. And so, how do you make sure all the other things that can clutter your calendar, you find another way to manage?

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, that notion, “Do what you alone can do” is a nice mantra there. And so, what are some of the most insightful questions these ruthless prioritize-rs are using to identify and surface and truly say, “Yes, indeed, only I can do this”?

Carolyn Dewar
It is one of the questions people struggle with the most, right, is having that clarity. I think it needs to start with a real grounding in, “What are the priorities of the business?” So, what are the two, three, four big moves, big priorities, big strategic shifts that you’re going to drive that will create value? And if they’re at that level of importance, they probably need some involvement from you. So, you should be spending time on really driving the priorities that matter.

I think leaders also recognize they need to shift into a mode where they’re not only the ones, they can’t be doing everything anymore. They need to lead through others, lead through leaders. And so, how do you get your leadership team working really well, not just with the right bums in seats and the right people, but actually aligned on the vision, making decisions well together so that they could make great decisions even if you weren’t in the room, right? That’s another big piece.

And then there’s some invisible work. There’s kind of the running the company. But there’s invisible work that, while the company is running, you need to be the one that pops your head up and looks around corners, and sort of says, “Well, what are the trends that are coming next? What could be some of the threats coming? What do we need to be thinking about for years two and three beyond this?” That’s your job, too.

And so, recognizing these pieces that, if it’s not for the CEO, no one else can set that kind of clarity. And then, honestly, working with your EA or your chief of staff to be really disciplined about, “Are you actually spending time on the things you said you would? Or, are you letting a bunch of firefighting creep into your calendar, which can just overwhelm?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you mentioned working with your EA, and I want to get your hot take on this. Most of our listeners are not CEOs. But I’m curious, having such a deep inside perspective of CEOs and what makes them great, what are some of your top recommendations for, when a professional in a more junior role is interacting with the CEO or a senior leader, given all you know, how can we be maximally helpful, insightful, differentiated in how we interface with these executives?

Carolyn Dewar
I think it’s a great opportunity to practice kind of putting on that CEO hat, right, because the one thing about the CEO job is they’re the only one that sees all the pieces. Everyone sees a part of the elephant. They’re the only one that kind of sees it all together.

So, the more you can try and put yourself in their shoes, and say, “If I was solving not just for my team or my function or my business or my geography, and I was actually solving what’s right for the company, would I think about this differently? Would I pose different questions? Would I answer them differently?”

Because the CEO job, they talk about it being lonely, and part of it is they’re the only ones sometimes trying to take that high-level view. Any of us can do that. Any of us can try and put ourselves in those shoes, and say, “Okay, if I’m thinking like a CEO, is this keeping me up at night? Is it really about, is the enemy me versus my other business unit I’m battling with? Or, is there kind of a bigger fight we’re fighting out there and we need to be working together?”

I think having that enterprise mindset is a big deal. It was Brad Smith, who was the CEO of Intuit, he talks about a sports jersey. Now I’m not a great sports person, but the thing that appealed to me is, “Your team’s name is on the front and your individual name is on the back. And he says, “When you’re coming to those situations, are you coming, representing and doing what’s right for the team? Or, are you trying to just optimize for your piece of the business, your piece?”

I think that’s the biggest shift in terms of thinking like a CEO and working with them is you got to put yourself in that enterprise-mindset view.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s so helpful. And it’s funny because, in a way, it seems like, “Yes, of course, they would appreciate that.” And yet, boy, there’s so much working against that.

Carolyn Dewar
It just drags you down.

Pete Mockaitis
In terms of, “Okay, there’s urgency, there’s complexity, there’s too much to do. And then there’s, frankly, you know, my goals, my KPIs, what shows up in my performance management, reviews and process. It’s, like, I don’t so much get credit, if you will, for thinking about that and raising that.” And so, but call me an optimist, I think that just makes that an even more delightful opportunity in terms of, if you go there, boy, what a breath of fresh air.

Carolyn Dewar
You’re refreshing when someone does it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. It’s like, “Wow, that’s so thoughtful.” It’s like, “Hey, we’re making this but, boy, it seems like this is going to be a nightmare for the sales team to be able to gather all of these requirements from their customers when they’re trying to win them over at the same time. Is there, hopefully, some easy process by which we’re collecting that information?” Like, “Oh, none of us have thought about that yet. Thank you for bringing that up. That’s huge.”

Carolyn Dewar
Exactly. I think it’s huge, right? And it differentiates yourself as a leader and you stand out, but it’s also just the right thing to do for our customers and our clients.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, let’s hear this metaphor. So, we got the four seasons: spring, stepping up, preparing for the role; summer, starting strong, leading with impact; fall, staying ahead, sustaining momentum; and winter, sending it forward, succession planning, lasting legacy, sorts of things. Could you perhaps share with us a fun story and perhaps a best and worst practice that you see among CEOs within each of these four seasons?

Carolyn Dewar
Yeah, absolutely. We can start with the first one, which is really about when you’re preparing for the role, and it could be the CEO role or, honestly, any next big job that you aspire to. What do you do to get ready? I think a lot of folks fixate on, “What do I have to do to get the job?” and they don’t think about what it means to be great at the job.

It may be an unrelated but interesting analogy. There are some people who are focused on having a wedding and they forget that the prize is now you’re married to this person. It’s the same kind of mindset. You have to think about the long game.

And so, the candidates that do really well, take time in the two, three years leading up to it, really thinking about two things. One, “Why would I even want that bigger job?” Because if the answer is just, “Because I deserve it,” or, “It’s my time,” or, “I want a promotion,” that’s not going to give you the energy to sustain it when those jobs get really hard.

You’ve got to be motivated by something else. Is it that you have an exciting vision for what you’ll do in that role? You’re excited by a mandate you could set, or a customer journey you could create, or some value you could create, or the people you’re going to help to be successful.

You need some bigger purpose in taking on the role or, frankly, the honeymoon period weighs out pretty quick and then you’re just stuck in this job and you weren’t sure you wanted it. So that’s one mindset shift is really thinking about the motivation and the why.

Pete Mockaitis
If I may pause right there, and say that is so valuable to not just fall for the trap of, “Oh, it’s the next step.” I’ve lived it myself. I remember, in a volunteer organization, one time I was the seminar chairperson, which was fun. I’m in charge of this whole event. And I’ve got my team and volunteers and all the thing.

And so, I’ve been volunteering for a long, time and I say, “Oh, the corporate board president for the state is the next role, so, naturally, of course, I should do that.” But I was just a fool. I didn’t stop and think, “What is this role about? Oh, this is about, like, compliancy things and like running a board, and making sure we have the audits done, and the bank account in good shape, and things are filed with the right entities, ensuring that we are in good standing with the mothership, the parent organization.”

It’s like, “Oh, I hate all of those things.” Like, I love being in the mix, and running it and, and doing the creative things. And then that wasn’t there. And I’m reminded of Star Trek. Jean-Luc Picard got some advice from an Admiral at Starfleet, saying, “Don’t ever let them take you out of that chair because this job, it’s more senior, but it’s not nearly as cool.” And so, having a good picture, eyes wide open in advance, can save everybody a lot of heartache.

Carolyn Dewar
Absolutely. I sit here in Silicon Valley, and so tons of tech friends and tech people around me. You can get someone who’s amazing at technology and, somehow, we’ve decided the way to reward them is to promote them into a people-leader role where they’re no longer doing the tech and they’re just managing.

A lot of them, they hate it. They’re not good at it. And it’s not the highest and best use of that person’s talent, right? So how do we really make sure you even understand what’s involved in that next role and have an honest conversation with yourself on, “Is that a great fit?”

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, let’s hear about the next season, summer.

Carolyn Dewar
So, the next season is, you’re now spring, you’ve sprung out as a little bud, you’re in flower, you know, it is summer, you’re in the role. And a lot of folks think about, “Okay, I’ve got the job now. Now what?” And a couple of ways to think about that first time, absolutely important to spend time listening and learning.

Frankly, people are going to tell you stuff when you’re new, honest things, hard things that they may not tell you a little bit later on in your tenure. So, when you’re doing that listening tour, you’re getting around talking to employees and customers and regulators, whoever it is, ask the hard questions.

One of the CEOs talked about, when he initially went out, he said, “Well, what’s the thing that you were all afraid to tell my predecessor? What is it that I need to know that they didn’t know?” It’s such a great question.

And because you’re new, they know you’re not fully associated with the track record so far, and so they’re willing to be honest, “What’s working? What’s not working? What are some of those elephants in the room that no one’s pointing out, but we really need to address?” And so, really use that time to soak up and learn.

I say it’s not enough, though, just to listen. You actually do need to start acting and hit the ground running. And we talked about nailing your firsts. Your first top team meeting, your first town hall, your first board meeting, your first quarterly earnings. You really do only have one chance to make a first impression.

And so, how do you go into those moments being really conscious of, “What’s the tone you want to set? How do you want to show up as a leader? What signals do you want to set in terms of your expectations and where you’re going to take the place?” And so really being mindful because, whatever you do in those moments, will have a ripple effect down through the organization, whether you were intentional about it or not. So, you want to set the right tone.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that is powerful. And I love that question. And, boy, it really speaks to a reality that we, people are quite reluctant to criticize folks who are more senior than them or even, tangentially, criticize them in terms of like, “This thing isn’t working and you are kind of the person in charge, so it’s, in a way, kind of your fault.” So, yes, seize that window and a fantastic question, “What were you afraid to tell my predecessor?”

And I also want to get your perspective, when getting, nailing these first and having big wins. It’s funny, because, of course, your predecessor was also, hopefully, you know, trying hard to win a lot and nail things well, and you’re new and have less experience, so that kind of seems like a tall order. Do you have any pro tips on, is there any way we can identify some easy quick wins or any little tips and tricks and hacks to be able to pull that off?

Carolyn Dewar
I think my brain is going in two places. One is the practical, and we can get into how you identify what you’re going to do to lend value and what the strategy should be. That’s one thing. But the hacks and tips, it’s a bit of a delicate time, especially sometimes your predecessor is still around. They might’ve gotten promoted too and they’re your new boss. Or, even for CEOs retiring, I think 17% of them now stay on as executive chair and they’re still coming to work and they’re still involved.

And so, how do you both set a new tone without completely throwing them under the bus in a way that’s unproductive? And I’ve seen folks do this judo move a few different ways. One is, it’s usually true, the context has changed. So how do you celebrate the past and say, “Here’s how we got here, here’s what’s great, here’s all the things that we all should feel proud of”? Because people want to feel like you see them, especially if you’re coming in from the outside. You get with how they got there.

“But, look, here’s what’s changing. Here’s what’s going on in the external world. Here’s what’s going on with our aspirations that’s changing and implies that we might need to do something differently. What got us here might not get us there.” That’s sort of an elegant way that I’ve seen a lot of leaders nuanced that, especially when they want to be really respectful to the past.

I think it’s different when you’re stepping into a complete turnaround and everyone knows there’s burning ships and you’ve got to just wreck and rebuild everything. I think, in a way, it’s easier to drive change in those moments. You don’t have to be quite so nuanced. I think, when things are going reasonably well and you just want to continue and make it better, that’s where you’ve got to be a little bit more thoughtful in how you communicate.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. Okay, well, let’s hear about fall.

Carolyn Dewar
Sure, let’s go into fall, and this hits on your question a little bit, too, about how you know big moves. The big risk in the fall, this is your middle years. You’ve gotten out of the gates, you’ve done well, the initial strategy, the initial team have delivered, and now you’re trying to think about what to do for years three through 20, however long those are going to be.

The biggest risk is your own success makes you complacent. Things have been going well, and so you hope you can just keep running that play and it’s going to continue to go great. That’s when leaders feel caught out. I know Jamie Dimon at JP Morgan talked about that was his biggest risk. And even when the “London Whale” happened and things that he dealt with, he said, “I got a little complacent. I assumed the things that have been working would just keep continuing.”

So, how do you break through that? I think about Michael Dell, the Founder and CEO of Dell computers. He’s been a CEO since he was 19. So now it’s been, gosh, I think half a century, if you think about it, or almost, that he’s been a CEO. He’s had a few of these times where he’s had to say, “How do we refresh? How do we not sit back on our laurels?”

And one time, he went into his leadership team, and he said, “Imagine it’s three years from now, and there’s a new player, a new attacker that understand our customers, understand our business. They’re better than us. They have new products. People love them. They’re really threatening our business. Now let’s assume that that attacker was us. What would have to be true? What was it that we were doing that we could disrupt ourselves and be the greatest threat to our current business? What would we look at?”

And it forced them to take a real outsider view, to look at it from the outside, and say, “Where are the opportunities? Where are we getting lazy? What could be possible given what’s happening in the world?” and they kind of reinvented themselves. You see companies do that reinvention several times. Lego has done the same, right? Who would have thought they would have ended up in theme parks and movies and adult Lego and all these other things?

It’s because they stepped back, and said, “I don’t want to just be a little plastic bricks company that, hopefully, you don’t step on in the middle of the night.” And so, how do you ask those questions of your team, ask the questions of yourself and really provoke yourself to not get too comfortable?

Pete Mockaitis
And to this point, I also want to hear, how do we become the rare, less than 1%, or 0% right now, CEO or a leader who is truly getting the full scoop from their team, from their direct reports, and able to have an honest assessment of their relative strengths and weaknesses?

Carolyn Dewar
Yes, so important, right? And I think you have to be really, really deliberate about it because, as soon as you’re made CEO, your jokes are funnier, you’re taller, all these things happen, and people start treating you differently. I think the CEOs we talked to put very deliberate things in place. Most of them had kind of a kitchen cabinet or an unofficial mini board that they went to for advice. It might just be three, four people.

Maybe someone in the organization, often people outside, maybe it’s other peer CEOs, maybe it’s other advisors they have, but they’ve got a small group of people who will hold up the mirror and tell them the truth about how things are going. That’s kind of one technique that we’ve seen. I think there was one CEO who had a reverse mentor.

So, they picked someone two, three levels down in the organization, someone who normally wouldn’t have direct access to the CEO. And they built a relationship with that person over time and gave them permission. In fact, really asked them to teach them, “How are things landing two, three levels down in the organization? What’s the chatter that I need to know about? What’s the feedback for me?”

But also, it turns out, that person, in this case, were younger, they were more tech savvy, they were kind of further ahead on some of the changes that were happening in the industry, and they learned a lot. And it became this kind of reverse mentoring relationship, which was very, very cool.

One more final just tactical one is, even in your meetings, you can use things like devil’s advocate, for example. If everyone is getting excited about an idea, especially if they think the CEO wants the idea, the risk is people fall in line and they all just start agreeing. Can you appoint someone in the meeting explicitly to say, “For the next five minutes, we want you to critique our idea and tell us all the reasons why it’s terrible and what aren’t we thinking of.”

It gives permission to someone to play that role and they can be purposely edgy and no one can be mad at them because they’re like, “Well, I was just playing the role you asked,” right? That’s a simple technique, but any of us can use that to make sure we’re really getting into it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s excellent because, I think, a lot of folks really need perhaps dramatic intervention to contradict those instincts of, “Be agreeable and do what the person in charge seems to want.” And so, I think that’s a very clear and direct way to achieve just that.

Carolyn Dewar
Yeah, absolutely. You have to create a safe space for people to do it. And they recognize pretty quickly, if you react badly to the honest feedback, you’re not going to get it again.

Pete Mockaitis
Yep, certainly. Okay. And winter?

Carolyn Dewar
So, winter, by design, and it is a cycle because it does overlap very much with spring. As you’re preparing to hand over the reins and to finish strong, that’s the same time where that new candidate is getting ready to take on the role, so you need to think about them together. I think it’s a phase that is really under, people don’t talk about it enough. There’s a lot about first hundred days. There’s almost nothing about last hundred days or last year, and what does that look like.

I think there’s a few things going on. One is there is a very personal journey, that outgoing leader, especially when it’s planned and it’s a retirement, is going through. It’s been a huge part of their identity, usually for years. And they have to get comfortable with it’s time for them to go. So, they actually set timing and talk to the board about when it’s time to go. Are they excited about what’s next for them, whether it’s, you know, friends and family or boards or whatever it is they’re going to do?

They need something they’re excited to go to or else sometimes you see people hanging on too long, to be honest, and that’s not good for anyone, especially if they’re hanging on because they’re worried about not being relevant or what’s next. And the best CEOs have this conversation all the way along. So again, Brad Smith of Intuit talks about he had this conversation 44 times with his board, which meant every quarter for the 11 years of his tenure.

Right from the very beginning, he started with, “How am going to prepare my successors? How are we going to start putting people in place to be a great bench of leaders going forward?” Because sometimes it feels awkward if you wait till the end. Who’s going to be the first one to say, “Hey, maybe it’s time to move on, right?”

But if you’ve had the conversation all the way along, you’ve built a great bench of leaders, then your focus can be on the right things, which is how to hand over with grace. Is there some cleanup you’re going to do to make it easy for the next person? Maybe there’s some lingering talent discussions that have to happen that are overdue or some budget issues.

Clean that up. Use your political capital to get some of the hard stuff done so that the new person taking over can do really, really well. I think we’ve seen a few of these boomerang CEOs in the last while, where they leave and then the new person doesn’t work out and they have to come back. I don’t think that’s a great sign of your legacy. Part of your legacy is that the organization continues strength to strength after you. You shouldn’t want to have to boomerang back.

Pete Mockaitis
Well said. Well, so walking through all this, I’d love it if you could share with us any story of a CEO that’s really stuck with you in terms of it’s made an imprint in terms of a lesson or a way to play the game a bit differently that made you go, “Yes, that is excellent.”

Carolyn Dewar
I think it comes back to where we started, which is the learning mindset of these excellent CEOs. And not only is there just a natural curiosity and humility, but they built it into their calendar. They made time for it, right? So, Satya Nadella spends one day a month doing nothing but learning. Now he’s Satya, so he can, like, cast the net wide and he has the world experts on everything submit things for him to spend and read during that time.

But the number of CEOs who really had something deliberate about how they would learn, they show up in their peers, they attend different sessions. Again, Brad Smith at Intuit used to do job shadows with other CEOs. All the way in, it’s like a 10-year, he would go and like shadow, you know, the Ford CEO or, he would shadow Zuckerberg at Facebook and learn from him. I mean, this is someone already a decade into an amazing career.

I think their willingness to admit they have something to learn and then making the time for it is role-modeling for all of us, as well as it makes them better CEOs. So that’s one that really stood out for me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s beautiful. And, yeah, I’m reminded of Bill Gates as well. He has the “Think Weeks” just disappears with the books and Diet Cokes, and that’s what he’s doing. It’s like, “Okay.”

Carolyn Dewar
And goes off to a cabin somewhere? Yeah, absolutely, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Super.

Carolyn Dewar
And we can all do that even in micro ways, right? Maybe you can’t take a whole week, but it’s not selfish or self-indulgent to invest in time for you to learn because it’s going to make you better at your job. And so, how do we not treat it as just sort of a nice-to-have that always gets punted off the calendar?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, Carolyn, tell me, any final things you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Carolyn Dewar
I think these were the biggies, other than these amazing CEOs, it’s easy to be sort of wowed by them, but 90% of what we learned and what we talk about in the A CEO for All Seasons applies to any leader. These are phases we all go through. We’re getting ready, we’re new, we’re kind of in role, we’re thinking about what’s next.

And so, I think there’s learnings for everyone. There are also learnings for anyone who’s supporting a CEO. It’s good to understand their journey so that you can work with them well and support them over time. So, investors, boards, others have also looked at this, and said, “Oh, wow, it’s worth being really thoughtful about what happens at each stage.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Carolyn Dewar
It’s probably a quote and a tip that we heard. So, this was Michael from Cincinnati Children’s Hospital. He talks about your to-be list. And he doesn’t just talk about it, he does it. So, as well as your to-do list with your agenda every day, he writes next to each meeting, “Who does he need to be in that meeting?” which is interesting, right? It’s not just about being inauthentic or not being himself.

But he’s recognizing like, “What does the organization need of me as its leader in that moment? Do they need me to be decisive and just stop the swirl? Maybe in this town hall, even if I’m having a crazy crummy day, I need to be inspiring. I need to show up that way.” So, this whole idea of how you show up and how you are is just as important as what you do. Really, I always come back to that thought.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Carolyn Dewar
There’s an old experiment called the lottery ticket, which is about, recently, they’ve done it thousands of times. A room full of people. You give half the room a number with their lottery ticket on it, and half the room a blank piece of paper, and you say, “Write your own number between one and X. That’s going to be your lottery ticket number.”

Just before they’re pulling the winning ticket at the front of the room, they call time out, and they go back out on the floor. And then the question they’re trying to answer is, “How much more of anything do we have to pay the people who wrote their own number versus those who were given a number?” So, quick picks versus filling out your own lottery number. How much more do you think you have to pay the people who wrote their own number, if at all?

Pete Mockaitis
You mean, to take their ticket from them?

Carolyn Dewar
To buy it back, oh, sorry. To buy it back. Apologies. So, you’re offering to buy back the ticket. How much more do you have?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, this is juicy. This is fun. Well, it’s like, I’m thinking about the IKEA effect in terms of they put effort into it, or these numbers are special to them, so it’s more than zero, but I’m guessing it’s irrationally high if you love it so much. So, I don’t know, 20% premium?

Carolyn Dewar
That’s a good guess. It turns out it’s five times more, which is completely irrational, right? It’s completely irrational. I think what it means for leaders is, if you can involve people, if they feel part of shaping it, if they feel like they’ve had their fingerprints on your strategy, your planning, whatever it is you’re doing, their level of buy-in and commitment is irrationally high.

And that’s a great superpower for you to tap into as a leader. And so, just telling someone the right answer versus bringing them along, it might be faster in the short term, but it doesn’t get you as far.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. And a favorite book?

Carolyn Dewar
I like ones about people and dynamics. So, it’s older now, but the Born a Crime by Trevor Noah, it’s just a fascinating one. It puts you in a different mindset of, “Gosh, we can’t all assume that the way we grew up is the way everyone does.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And a favorite tool, something that helps you be awesome at your job?

Carolyn Dewar
I am starting to play around with AI. I think I’m very much a newbie. I saw Sam Altman was talking about how Boomers use it versus how Gen X and Gen Z use it. I’m probably somewhere in the middle. I’ve moved beyond using it as Google, but I’m just starting to play around with little ways to build it into my day.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget that you share, in your writings or with your colleagues, that people really dig and they quote back often to you, a Carolyn original?

Carolyn Dewar
I think the to-be list one that I shared is a big one. I think the only other one is this idea of doing what only you can do and how freeing that can be. And so, if you really think about the hours you have in the day and what’s the highest and best use of that time, and you lived your life that way, it’s freeing for you, it’s higher impact for others, and I think we’d all be better served if we kind of operated in that mode.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Carolyn Dewar
Sure, you can always find us. I think if you type in A CEO for All Seasons and McKinsey, it’s going to get you to our homepage, and there’s access to any of our authors and video clips and things to read. So that’s probably your best bet.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Carolyn Dewar
So final call to action is probably this idea that, ultimately, it’s not about you. You’re being given the privilege of being in this role, and your goal is to leave it better than you found it and to do everything you can to sort of serve all your stakeholders while you’re in the role. And I think that prompts all of us to think bigger and bolder about what we’re trying to do, and also get out of our own way a little bit.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Carolyn, thank you.

Carolyn Dewar
Super. It’s terrific to talk to you. Thanks so much.

Sep 04
0

1090: How to Get Recruiters to Compete for You with Madeline Mann

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Madeline Mann shares insider tips and strategies for landing exciting new career opportunities.

You’ll Learn

  1. The resume mistake high achievers make
  2. The simple tweak that dramatically nets you more inbound opportunities
  3. The interview hack that makes you sound like an expert

About Madeline

Madeline Mann is an HR & Recruiting leader who spun her insider knowledge of the hiring process into an award-winning career coaching empire, called Self Made Millennial. Mann is now known for turning job seekers into Job Shoppers, to enable any professional to land high-paying job offers for seemingly unattainable roles. Her clients have landed at companies such as Netflix, Google, Goldman Sachs, Deloitte, NBC Universal, Amazon, and more. She lives in Los Angeles.

Resources Mentioned

Thank you, Sponsors!

Madeline Mann Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Madeline, welcome!

Madeline Mann
Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to chat. You’ve got so much good stuff on YouTube and elsewhere, talking career searching, job hunting, interview, answering. So, we’re going to talk a bit about some of the goods in your book, Reverse the Search: How to Turn Job Seeking into Job Shopping. Can you share with us, as you’ve spent all this time working in this field, what’s one of the most surprising and fascinating discoveries you’ve made or the advice you share that folks are genuinely shocked to hear and they thought it was the other way around?

Madeline Mann
Well, when I worked in human resources, I was the one who ran every hiring process. And something stood out to me is that it wasn’t the candidates who, necessarily, had the perfect background or the Ivy League education that made hiring managers trip over themselves to get them a position. There were certain candidates who were able to use certain approaches that allowed them to make the company compete for them.

So, they would say things like, “Oh, we need to hurry up the hiring process so we can get this person.” And, even, I worked at companies where we didn’t have these giant Google budgets, right? We had tight budgets, and we would go over budget to get certain candidates, even though they might not be, like I said, the perfect-on-paper candidate.

And so, that is the thing that really sparked the idea for this book, is that people don’t realize that on the other side of the table, these companies, when they find a candidate that they really like, they will compete for that person. And if you can find the ways to start enticing these companies, even if you’re a career-changer or an unconventional candidate, that they will go above and beyond for you.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, this is funny, and this is reminding me of the most random of things. I’m thinking about the book, Neil Strauss, The Game, talking about pickup artists, and they try to adopt this mindset, like, “No, no, no, no, I am the prize. I am a high value,” whatever. And they use a number of tactics, which aren’t so reputable, and I don’t imagine you want to neg your employer, your prospective employer, or maybe you do, Madeline.

Madeline Mann
You don’t want to neg.

Pete Mockaitis
I mean, “Google is okay, I guess. It’s no Open AI.”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, exactly. And I think that that’s actually kind of a really interesting misconception because they think, when I say, “Ooh, reverse the search. Go job shopping,” that suddenly you have this air of entitlement and all of that or negging, as you say, where you’re kind of taking company down a peg of, “I have other options. Like, what do you have to offer me?” It’s actually not that way at all.

It’s more about understanding exactly what the company needs and kind of taking your ego out of it, not talking about the details of your complicated career journey, but instead, focusing on, “Okay, what does the company need? How can I fill that need?” And knowing that you are the right person, you can make it happen, showing them you can make it happen, but also having this strategy where you are having opportunities come to you in a way that you don’t have to move into desperation mode.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m curious, how does one, in fact, truly learn what they need? Because sometimes the job post, job description is kind of thin. It’s kind of generic. It might even be written by AI. I’ve had a buddy who does interviews, he’s like, “They said they wanted all these things in the job description, but then when I started using the terms, they seemed to not understand them in the interview. What’s going on here?”

Madeline Mann
Unreal. I totally get it. And, yes, so you’re right. The first place to look is the job description. That’s kind of where you start. And if you’re not able to unearth enough there, you can start also doing some research. If it’s a marketing role, sign up for the company’s email lists and look on their website. If it’s a customer success role, report a ticket or do something like that. If it’s a product role, interact with their product or see even how they talk about the product on the website.

If it’s human resources, read other job descriptions, read Glassdoor. Like, there’s just a million ways to actually explore a company and understand what is the state of that role in some ways. Now, really, where you understand what a company needs and is looking for is in the interview. Now, sometimes you can get around that by doing informational interviews ahead of time, talking to employees, but, really, the key is no one’s expecting you to come into an interview process being like, “Boom! Here’s exactly what you need.”

But what you can do for the first interview is do what I call a T-chart, which is essentially where you were to take the job description and you would match each of your past experiences to what is on that job description. And if there’s anything you’ve ever done, any skills you have that don’t meet things on that T-chart, I don’t want you to talk about it, unless you’re asked about it. But, too often, we volunteer additional information.

If I’m going into a car dealership, and I say the most important things are the color of the car and the size of the cup holders, do not tell me about the engine and the trunk space, right? So, that’s really the idea here. And then as you go into later interviews, you’re asking really good questions to where, if you were to land the job or had to start the job tomorrow, you would ask questions almost like a consultant, where you’ve understand the state of the projects you’d work on, what are their tools, and you could actually start to build a plan of how you would execute that.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot. And that car example really resonates in terms of when sales folks don’t give you what you want to know, it’s frustrating and annoying. It’s like, “I want to know the price and I don’t want to know the history of your founder.”

It kind of ruins, it kills a lot of the excitement real quick. And so, likewise, I could see that we, as a job seeker, might be doing that. It’s like, “Well, no, no, no, I did a really cool project. I got a really big impact. And so, you got to know about it.” And it’s like, “Yeah, well, that’s cool, but that’s not actually what we’re into over here.”

Madeline Mann
Well, what most people do on their resume is that their resume is their best accomplishments. And I would like to challenge your audience to stop doing that. Stop putting your best accomplishments, unless what you did in your most recent role is very perfectly in line with the exact role you’re going for next, then that makes sense.

But if the role is slightly different, which a lot of high achievers tend to pivot roles that are a little bit different, they want to learn something new, so it’s fairly common to go to a different role that’s maybe, you know, just a parallel role, you should start thinking about, “Okay, let me prioritize my accomplishments of what is most relevant.”

And you may delete the biggest, juiciest project you worked on. Let’s say you had a role where you did tons of different things. You’re going for a project manager role, but one of the things you did is you closed a $3 million deal with Pepsi. Okay, that’s a business development accomplishment. That is not a project management accomplishment. That fabulous deal is not going to make it onto your resume.

And people, sometimes they’re mourning their past job experience because they say, “Ooh, but it was so good. I was their champion at everything.” If there were project management elements of that project, sure, share those. But that accomplishment itself is distracting.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. mourning is the word in terms of, “I worked so hard on this. I poured so much of my blood, sweat, and tears, effort into it. And now it doesn’t even serve me here?” And I guess the truth is it does not. And sharing it will make it serve you even less. It can be counterproductive. And, especially, as I think about resume space as the line as the fundamental unit of currency there. And maybe you can give a quick hot take on how long can our resumes be?

Madeline Mann
Yes, there are so many opinions about how long a resume should be, and I will put it to rest. It doesn’t necessarily matter how long your resume is, but it should only have extremely relevant information. And when you go through the glory formula, which is in the book, Reverse the Search, I’ve seen so many people where their resume shrinks, and it does shrink to one page.

And that is the interesting challenge of, if you kind of challenge yourself to do it to one page, and definitely do it to two pages, you’ll realize, “Wow, I put a lot of things on that resume that didn’t need to be there.” I put that I was CPR certified to do an accounting role. I don’t need to put that there. So, there’s just so many things that we need to take another look at, because more information is not more helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, to this, we’ll zoom out in a moment, but you just keep saying enticing things, I can’t let go. So, CPR certified, understood, that’s not really relevant. Often, a resume will have a section sort of like interests or hobbies or whatever. And some would say, “Oh, that’s kind of nice.” They can get a little bit of a picture of your personality on, like, one line. What do you think about that?

Madeline Mann
I like it. I think it’s good because people hire people, okay? So, that line is really a moment for you to connect with the interviewer and it’s not guaranteed. Now here’s a guaranteed way to waste that space. If you say generic things like, “I like travel,” “I like to try new restaurants,” “I like to spend time with my family,” things that are, literally, just so foundational that there’s nothing to hold onto there.

What if, instead, you say, “I’m obsessed with Thai food,” “My favorite place to travel is Fiji,” “I have four sons.” Right? Like, saying something about where it’s specific, where, if I also have a bunch of sons, I might reach out to it, or, “I love Fiji too,” or, “Thai food is great,” like, blah, blah, blah.

Now, there’s no guarantee that the person on the other end is going to connect with any of those things, but it’s guaranteed they’re not going to connect with them if they’re hyper-generic.

Pete Mockaitis
“Oh, that’s the craziest thing. I also enjoy sunshine, Madeline. That’s crazy.” Okay. Well, we’re having fun here. Maybe let’s zoom out and, perhaps, could you share with us a story of someone who really internalized this mindset shift? They did some different things and saw a cool result because of that.

Madeline Mann
Absolutely. I think about one of my clients, Brittany. So, she was having trouble in the job search. She was very well qualified for the roles and she had a human resources background, which you’d think, “Oh, she hires people. She knows the behind-the-scenes.” But it’s wild how job searching is a completely separate skillset from actually being good at your job.

And so, she was kind of struggling to get interviews, and it all changed where, first of all, I think a lot of us really underestimate the value of LinkedIn. She started getting outreaches on LinkedIn when she optimized it, right? Doing the right things on the profile. And I do go into depth in that in Reverse the Search.

Another thing is she went through an interview process, got to the very end and was rejected. And I think this is really important for people to hear right now because a lot of my clients get rejected. But I’ve been called the Comeback Coach because a lot of them still land offers at companies that reject them. And I think that this is a really important learning for people, is that a rejection is not the end of the road.

If you’ve had an interview with a company, you have networked with them. You now have a relationship, and they have actively shown you with their time, with their effort, that they value you. So, you have to put that in your pocket, and say, “That’s a win for me.” So, this is what Brittany did. I worked with her to say, “Okay, you had a great relationship with this hiring manager. Let’s keep cultivating it.”

So, I helped her to, like, continue the relationship. We also got what I call kind of like decoy offers, like, I try to get clients even offers that they don’t want, and then bring those offers to the employers that you’re really excited about. Tell them about it. And that’s what she did. She was like, “Hey, I have this offer. I’m getting farther in this interview process. Do you guys have any open roles coming up? Like, I want to work with you the most, but I have this opportunity.”

And that hiring manager was like, “We are going to have an open role in a couple months, but you know what? I’m going to push that forward and make that happen now.” Because, suddenly, everyone wants the candidate who, first of all, is building great relationships and, second of all, is highly desired in the market.

And so, she was able to then kind of speed through that, like, second round of interviews with this company, get the offer. She earned 40% more than her last salary. She told me, “I don’t even want to negotiate because this offer is so good.”

And that’s another thing, is that if you’re job shopping, if you’re using these methods through the interview process, negotiation becomes not that important because companies will nearly almost always give you the top of their range because they’re like, “Just take it. Like, please join us.” And so that’s what happened for her.

And so, I really want to emphasize that to anyone kind of going through this tough job market is, again, like, I think this is a good example of you have a lot more influence in the process than you think. People view a rejection as them being powerless, but she spun that into a massive power and landed the offer.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. I like that a lot. And I have witnessed that, in my world as well, in terms of, “Oh,” I worked at Bain for a while, and they say, “They got an offer from McKinsey. So, if we want him, we better move quick.” And they do. It’s like, “We got interviews on Fridays. Well, you’re having an interview this Friday, not a month from now,” which was previously thought it would be.

And it’s true. I think, especially in, I’m thinking about Bob Cialdini, who’s on the show, talking about influence, the notion of scarcity, as well as social proof, like just human psychology here. Like, it’s sort of ambiguous, “Is this person going to be great at this role? I mean, I hope so. They seem like it. Oh, but someone else really wants them. Okay, well, there’s some validation. I guess there’s another indicator that the odds are good, they’re a winner.”

As well as scarcity, it’s like, “Oh, oh, we better move quick or we’ll lose them.” And so, what a great place to be if you are in that position and everyone else that they’re talking to is not.

Madeline Mann
Yes, exactly. Exactly right. There are psychological principles that come up there that are as old as time. And, exactly, that scarcity, that competition, and a lot of people don’t realize that budgets are malleable, timelines are malleable, like, companies will say certain things or certain ways, but companies also understand that hiring is an art just as much of a science.

And people think that companies are just inundated with exceptional talent, and that’s actually not the case. When you find someone who’s a great talent, has a great attitude, personality, skillset, you want to keep an eye on them. You do want to hire them, and you don’t take that necessarily for granted.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, let’s maybe walk through it step by step in terms of, let’s say, “All right, I got a job and it’s okay, but it’s still not quite doing it for me in terms of I’d maybe like a little bit more money, a little bit more flexibility, a little bit more cool teammates, a little bit more impact.”

You know, it’s sort of like, our jobs are fine but we have a feeling that there’s something that is substantially better out there for us. So, we say, “You know what, let’s just go for it. Let’s just start looking around.” What would you say is the step one, two, three to embarking upon job shopping as opposed to job seeking?

Madeline Mann
So, there are short-term, medium-term, and long-term options. So many job seekers hunt, right? So hunting is basically where you kind of go out, there’s a role, you try to hunt it, and it runs away. Just like hunting, right? Like, if your prey runs away, then you kind of have lost out on it, and it’s that. That’s why you need to also have farming aspects of your strategy as well.

So, if you were just now going to embark on the job search, first of all, I would start farming, first of all. Like, let’s start tilling the field. So, first of all, the most important thing is get extremely clear about what is your next career step. Too many people skip over this. They’re like, “Well, I have a lot of different skills.” I call them kind of like the mosaic job seeker, where they’re like, “I just have so many different beautiful parts of me,” which you do, but you need to get clear.

Then your messaging needs to be extremely clear on your LinkedIn profile. And then there’s likely some profession and/or industry-specific job boards or networking sites where I would get your branding, your resume, whatever it is, on those, too, because I want those to just be magnets for opportunity. A lot of my clients report over 50% of their interviews coming in just inbound. They’re not applying, just companies coming to them.

So, that’s why we say, like, “Just get yourself out there on the internet, and let those things come into you,” because, especially, if you’re employed, you don’t have a ton of time to reach out to people. So, get that branding good to go, okay? Then I want you to start warming up that network.

First of all, talking to people in your network, and then, of course, reaching out to people at certain companies. So, having a target company list where you’re starting to network there.

Now let’s focus on the hunting, right? So, let’s now look at what jobs are out there. What is actively hiring now? So that’s the reactive job search process, where you’re reacting to what’s out there on the market. And with that, we need to be quick and precise. We’re seeing a lot in the job market right now, that you do want to act quickly when a role opens because these roles are highly inundated.

But also, especially as you move up in your career, as you’re getting more advanced, focus more on relationships of, like, making sure that that resume actually gets read, versus simply just submitting it online. So that is where I would start to kind of have this multifaceted, both short-term and long-term play for your job search, to maximize your time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so then, when it comes to some of the particulars, like, get the branding good, what perhaps are the top two or three action steps that are just tremendously useful per minute we spend on them?

Madeline Mann
Right. So, we’ll focus on your LinkedIn profile, because while I did talk about there’s other places you can do this, let’s talk about LinkedIn because that really is the number one place that recruiters are looking for talent.

Too many people think that their “About” section is important and their cover photo is important. None of those things are unimportant, but people spend so much time on those that I would say throw those out the window. Like, let’s focus on them much later. Instead, let’s focus on what is actually moving the needle of showing up in searches.

First of all, you’re probably not surprised, your headline, okay? Your headline, I think there’s two different ways to approach your headline and, too often, if you’re using AI to create it, they’re usually telling you, like, “Make a clever statement about who you serve, and stand out that way.” Here’s the problem there. I think that a clever statement is good if you’re doing a content strategy and building a business.

So maybe you might say, you know…

Pete Mockaitis
“I’m a snack marketing ninja with an emoji.”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Bring snacks. Yeah, snacks to everyone you know. Yeah, exactly. So, not like that. It’s better to be like digital marketing specialist in the food and beverage industry, right? Like, something like that where it’s like, “Boom! Okay, got it.” Like, that is what I’m buying as an employer, because what recruiters do is they search for keywords.

I’ve done a ton of sourcing in my career, in my recruiting. I’m highly familiar with LinkedIn’s backend of what that looks like. So, you need to make sure that you’re findable. The people who are getting all of these interviews, such as my clients, they’re not necessarily more talented than you. They’re just more easily found.

And so, we are not thinking about the SEO of your profile. So, making sure you’re getting the right keywords on there and the right elements. And people also are afraid to put it in industry because they’re afraid to pigeonhole themselves, but industry profiles, industry-specific profiles, get far more clicks and interest.

Someone who’s just in marketing versus someone who is in marketing for food and beverages, that’s completely different, more specific skillset that is going to attract more attention. So don’t be afraid to be specific.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, then the headline is huge because the way the LinkedIn search algorithm is operating. So, if someone is searching for a digital marketing person in food and beverage, if you have that kind of thing in your headline, then you’ll be super findable relative to not. And I guess there’s some tricky nuances in terms of, “Well, this is what I’m doing now, but I want to do something different later.” I guess that makes it tougher as to, “What do I do with that headline there?”

Madeline Mann
Yep, you can’t focus your headline on what you did in the past. It has to be what you want to do next. Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Or, what you want to be doing. Because, like, you’re not like, “If I’m a digital marketing specialist in food and beverage, but I want to be a digital marketing specialist for video games, I cannot say that I am that right now, though I want to be that.”

Madeline Mann
Well, here’s the thing. We always have to put ourselves in the mind of the employer, okay, “How can I be employable in video games? Well, I should start, you know, maybe doing some pro bono work for an indie video game shop, right, or something like that. Or even create my own projects.” And you need to build that experience even if it’s just a few hours a month.

And then you need to claim it on your headline because it is actually unkind to put in your headline, “I worked in food and beverage,” and then someone contacts you in food and beverage, and be like, “No, I’m not pursuing roles in food and beverage.” It’s just like an unnecessary piece of information that you’re now attracting the wrong person.

It’s more kind to say, you know, “Video games,” and then you’re attracting that opportunity and you can show them how you’ve been upskilling in that industry, how you have been an immense student of that industry. And so, now you’re attracting the right opportunities. That is more kind because now it’s easier for companies to match up to you properly versus you sending these mixed signals into the world.

Pete Mockaitis
And maybe I’m just getting a little bit hung up. So, then in this scenario we’ve dreamt up together, with the headline, “I’m a digital marketing person in food and beverage. I want to be a digital marketing person in video games,” what do I do with that headline?

Madeline Mann
I would put video games. I wouldn’t put food and beverage.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, then I guess I’m a little worried then in this world, it’s like, if my boss sees this, like, “Hey, man, what?”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, oh, that’s true. So, if you’re currently employed, you’re right, I think that would raise some serious eyebrows. So, I would, in that case, remove industry. Remove industry from your headline. But you really should be showing some video game expertise on your profile. It could be that you write an article on LinkedIn. It doesn’t matter if there is one person reading it. Your brother-in-law is the only one who reads it or something like that. It doesn’t matter.

It really is just about, “When I get to your profile, I can tell that he is extremely intentional about moving into this industry,” because it scares employers so much if they feel you have not done the work to make this pivot because they do not want to be a career experiment where you think, “Oh, yeah, maybe I’ll do this industry, maybe I’ll do that industry, maybe I’ll do this job title, that job title.”

They hire you, and you realize, “Ooh, actually, this wasn’t exactly what I wanted,” or, “I’m actually vastly underqualified and I didn’t actually, like, do the work myself to get up to speed of another candidate.” And then they feel really disappointed in the hire.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I like that a lot. So, for get branding good, we’ve got LinkedIn showing off in the headline as much as we can, what we’re after, as well as in the other places, “Hey, I posted an article,” maybe, “I I’ve done some pro bono work for a studio and that’s listed there,” and that’s cool. Tell us more about getting branding good. I was specifically interested in that notion of, “Hey, you can just go ahead and do some free work for a company there and mention it.”

And I think that that is fabulous. We had a woman on the show, Kristen Berndt, and she had a dream of working in airline baggage operations, which I thought was funny as a very specific dream and a passion of hers. Like, she read all these articles on it, and it was amazing to me.

And so, she started a blog about these matters, like, “Hey, here’s the latest rankings on baggage performance,” and her analysis of what she thinks is going on, and why United went up or down in the rankings and some new technologies they’re using. And, sure enough, like, she got the job in that career-switch area because nobody else has a blog about airplane baggage operations, “You got the job, Kristen. Congrats.”

Madeline Mann
That is a perfect example, and, yeah, exactly. It doesn’t matter how many people read that blog or anything. She was showing that she has a growth mindset, and a lot of people don’t realize that is the biggest currency of this current job market. It’s not years of experience. It’s not wisdom. It’s not tenure. It’s ability to evolve and constantly learn, because 25 years of marketing experience doesn’t actually mean anything if you’ve lived the same year of your career 25 times.

You need to be up-leveling. You need to be learning new things. And so, just like she is, she’s showing her that she is very on top of things. She is passionate. And so, exactly, I mean, I have a client, she is at Harvard PhD and was so disappointed to enter the workforce and realize that she wasn’t really desirable. She wanted to work in market research for public companies.

And so, I worked with her to tap, I have a bunch of business owners in my network, me being a business owner myself, and I had her make a list of the type of market research she was willing to do pro bono. So, she was like, “I can do an analysis of your customers in this way and that way.” So, she made a list and I sent it out to a group of business owners.

And I said, “Does anyone want to take her up on this?” So, I had a couple of business owners say, “Yes.” And now she has incredible projects on her resume. She’s showing these employers that she was able to take what she did as a researcher at Harvard. And now she actually has real-world results.

And it’s not about her breaking her back to do 60 hours a week of work. She’s probably doing four hours a week of work, pro bono. But people are spending tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars, on education, and they’re spending so many hours a week doing these things, where you could spend so much less time and money just doing a little bit of pro bono work, getting the evidence on your resume and then having the ability to talk about that.

And a lot of people aren’t doing it because it’s not the paved path.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I like that a lot. And I’m also thinking about just showing up at events, because you learn so much so quick when you’re talking to all the people doing all the things in terms of…I’m just thinking about Podcast Movement I’ve been to over and over again. And so, if you are interested in maybe getting into the podcast world, but didn’t have a lot of experience, well, by golly, you’re going to know all sorts of things that the uninitiated were utterly clueless about, like, three days ago.

You’d get an education on what is absolutely cutting edge, modern, top-of-mind concerns for people in this space, and as well as connections right there, like, “Hey, now I know some people and who know other people. Away we go.”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, exactly. And making those connections, learning, yeah, attending those things, consuming information, and regurgitating it back. And just claim it as your own, right? If you learn something about the podcast industry, then just, like, integrate that into the questions you ask people of the podcasters, or anything like that, or, “I’ve noticed this or that.” Just really internalize these things.

And I even have a lot of my clients, as part of their interview prep, I have a very short document that people use, where people are like, “Whoa, this interview prep you tell us to do is so much more brief than the interview prep I normally do, but yet it’s highly more effective.” And one of the things I have them do that almost no one does as a preparation for their interviews is I ask them to find a podcast specifically on their profession.

And you’d be amazed. I have so many clients of, like, super niche job titles and there is like a YouTube video out there, there’s a podcast episode out here. And you know, like in podcasting, you can get incredible people saying, basically, the most rich and factual things, but it’ll have like four views, right? And so, it’s amazing what you can find out there.

So, then they’re able to take that information that either helps them to grow their mind about their profession or further confirms the things that they already felt about their profession, helps them to crystallize in interviews, and show them as more of an expert, more of a thought leader.

And, literally, just that one action has helped land a lot of my clients, job offers, because they’re like, “Whoa, I’m communicating so much better in my interviews because I sound like I really have deeply thought about the big picture of this industry and my profession because I’ve listened to some thought leaders and done that preparation.”

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And I might say, while you’re at it, feel free to reach out to the podcast guests. Many of my guests have said, “I’ve heard from so many of your listeners on LinkedIn,” and they’re so wonderful. It’s like, “Well, thank you.” Thank you, listeners, for being so wonderful, and so, yeah. And, especially, if you have a real thoughtful comment, compliment, follow-up question, folks generally like that, as opposed to a fake compliment, segueing into sales pitch. We have enough of those.

Madeline Mann
Yes. And that’s the thing, is people go on podcasts, on YouTube channels, because they want to have that effort that they put into that interview be heard by the world, right? They don’t go on to hope that no one hears it. So, the fact that you are reaching out, you’re giving a compliment, that you’re asking a question, that is absolutely welcome. So that’s one of the best possible things.

Like, if you’re trying to get your foot in the door at a company, try to find these micro influencers at the company, just people who post on LinkedIn every now and then, or people who are on podcasts every now and then. They don’t have to be your hiring manager. They don’t have to be a recruiter. They don’t have to be someone in your department.

Literally, those people, if you can just listen to what they did, read their article, they’re going to be so grateful that you engaged with it, that you found it interesting, that that is such an effortless way to network. It’s crazy. And so, that is such a good way in.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s true, yes. If folks really pour some thought and effort into an article, an interview, a post, and they have, like, crickets of response, like a couple people give it a like or, “Good article, Madeline,” and that’s about it, and then there is some authentic engagement from a human being, who found that interesting and insightful, valuable, and has a follow-up question, well, it immediately provokes the answer, “Wait, who’s this person?” Like, you’re immediately interested in that person because, like, “No one else showed any interest in me. This person did. I like them and I want to know all about them.”

Madeline Mann
Yes, people think, “I have nothing to offer this person. What can I give them?” Literally, like, your interest, and even people hitting like on a post, giving comment, showing that interest, even if you have a tiny network or a tiny social media following, like I bet you, if someone was consistently sharing your podcast episodes, like you probably wouldn’t even care how big their following is. You probably just notice them over time and say, “That person is awesome. Like, I appreciate them.” And it really is quite flattering.

So, yeah, I think it’s such an important thing that, even just taking time to notice people, I say that in Reverse the Search, it’s not about knowing people. It’s about noticing people. You don’t have to have this big network, but if you’re really great at noticing people, noticing what they’re contributing to the world, what makes them great, what makes them interesting, you are going to never want for a job.

Pete Mockaitis
Well said. Well, boy, we could talk for hours. But, Madeline, could you share with us a couple of your top do’s and don’ts that we haven’t hit yet here?

Madeline Mann
First of all is, folks think that aiming lower in their job search is easier. So, like, let’s say you’re sending out resumes and none of them are hitting, you think, “Well, why don’t I just go to roles that I’m super qualified for, I’m 130% qualified for?”

What I found is that that’s actually harder to land than maybe a role that is obviously perfectly aligned with you or even a role that’s a little bit of a reach for you. Because companies are terrified that they’re going to have to pay you too much, that you are going to get the role and you’re going to get bored really quickly, you’re going to ask for a promotion, you’re going to leave until a better job comes.

And, truthfully, I’ve seen that happen a lot at companies where people say, “Oh, no, this leveling is totally fine for me.” And they prove the company right, that it was not a right fit. So, first of all, don’t aim. If you’re going to aim anywhere, aim a little bit higher instead of lower, even if you’re a career-changer. You don’t have to go to the bottom of the rung of a career ladder if you’re career changing.

Second of all, there’s this idea that keeps permeating, that is the idea that the job search is a numbers game. And, especially now that application numbers are getting higher and higher because more and more job seekers are using AI, your friends and your family will often give you terrible advice of just apply more, more, more.

And I just have, I mean, I have a bunch of examples in the book and I have hundreds more from my clients where they just shifted the way they approach things, started going after a half a dozen, maybe a dozen roles, maybe a couple dozen roles, and landing interviews at most of them. And so, when you shift your approach, you actually find that, in a world right now where everything is so impersonal, doing more impersonal things at scale is actually the slowest way to job search.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Yes, that makes a lot of sense because you might have more numbers, but the percentage is so super-duper tiny that it’s not really worthwhile, even though, “Oh, this was easy to apply to that job.” “Yeah, that’s what the other 3,000 people said.”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, and I would say, you know, it’s so tough to sit here and give advice because all of your listeners are unique and have different situations. I would say, if you don’t have any interviews at 10% of the applications you’re sending out, there’s something wrong, okay?

So, for some of us, we are perfectly qualified for these roles, we have great companies on our resume, we’re applying within the first 24 hours, and we are landing 10%, 20%, 30%, 40% of the job opportunities. If that is your strategy and it is working, please continue. But if you’re kind of doing all those things and it’s below 10%, something’s up. And, like, probably the high-volume job search, the way you’re going about it right now is not a good approach.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I love a benchmark number. Thank you, Madeline. That’s handy. Tell us, any final thoughts before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Madeline Mann
One of the most important things right now is the job market is challenging. It’s really the worst job market I’ve seen in my career, and I want to say that because I want to tell your listeners that it’s not in their head.

But yet, I also sit in a position where I am seeing job seekers land not only one offer, but multiple offers all the time. So, I see this firsthand. So, I just want you to know that it is possible and, really, they’re just going one step above. Like, they’re just doing maybe one more step than you are, but they’re doing it strategically.

I was talking to someone on TikTok today, where they said, “Well, what if I get rejected from a no-reply email? I guess I’m out of luck.” Job shoppers don’t stop at a no-reply emails, right? Like, I just need you to start shifting your thinking of instead of seeing obstacles, see opportunities.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now I just can’t let that go. So, let’s say, we applied and I got a no-reply at Craft.com, and they say, “Peter, thank you so much for your interest. Unfortunately, we have chosen to move with a different candidate,” dah, dah, dah. That’s that. What do I do there?

Madeline Mann
Yeah, so if this is truly just an application, right, you have not had any sort of correspondence with the company, you could find their general email, like, the “Hello” at their website. You could find the recruiter email, you could find the hiring manager, and people are like, “But how do I know who’s the hiring manager? How do I know what their email is?”

Those things, first of all, you’re guessing. Second of all, it’s fairly easy to guess also people’s email addresses. There’s lots of tools online that can find them or, also, it’s usually their first name at the company website, or their first initial, last name. There’s a lot of ways that it’s pretty easy to figure out.

So, spend, you know, two to five minutes finding an email address, following up, saying, “Thank you so much for getting back to me. I am bummed I missed the window for this role because I was very excited. Should anything open up or should this role open up again, I want to let you know that I’m extremely interested in it, going forward, and I wish you all the best. I’ll be rooting for you from the sidelines,” something like that.

And I remember, I got an email like that once when I was hiring a role, and I would either get silence from rejection emails or hatred when I was working in recruiting because people are very sensitive when it comes to rejection.

Pete Mockaitis
They actually say that out loud. Okay. Huh?

Madeline Mann
Yes. And so, for someone to say, “Hey, you rejected me. Just a heads up. Like, you all are a top company that I’m interested in. So, I’m going to keep up with you.” That stands out. So, what did I do with her application? I put it in the future potential bucket of my ATS. When that role opened up again, she was one of the first people I reached out to. She interviewed. She even got to one of the final rounds.

So, just know that, again, where others see obstacles, you need to see opportunities. And all these people are, like, imagine me opening up the role again, not putting it online, simply interviewing some of the candidates I had already interest in, and then she gets the role, that’s the hidden job market right there.

Because I wouldn’t have opened the role again if she fit it, and I could just interview her and not have to go through all the folder all of like, you know, evaluating all these applications. People don’t realize that these are some of the ways that you’re cutting the line in the job search.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now can you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Madeline Mann
“A healthy man has a thousand wishes. A sick man has only one.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And now a favorite study or experiment or piece of research?

Madeline Mann
I am a big fan of Cialdini. His book, Influence, was one that just completely transformed my life. I read it in high school, and it’s really transformed. He actually did a study, where he found that one of the best questions to ask in a job interview is, “Why did you bring me in here today? What made you feel that I was qualified to be here today?”

And he proved that that question was influential in getting the company to start rationalizing why that person is a good fit.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that is a great question. And it gives you valuable information, it’s like, “Oh, okay. I thought it was this other thing. I’m not going to talk about that. I’m going to talk about what you said.

Madeline Mann
“Yes, I’m going to focus on that. Yes.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Madeline Mann
I love Multipliers.

Pete Mockaitis
And a shout out to Liz Wiseman, a former guest on the show. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Madeline Mann
I use a lot of Evernote. My entire business is really based on me putting out value into the world, and value can come in inspiration of client conversations, of podcast interviews.

And so, to have somewhere easily accessible that I’m writing down all of my ideas, keeping them organized, cultivating them over time. So, just, you know, it’s a very simple tool, but that one’s been really helpful for me to just track all of these thoughts that are bubbling in my head.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Madeline Mann
I always use a notebook. I am constantly writing in my notebook and it’s filled with to-do lists. And I probably go through a notebook in, like, a couple weeks. And something about having my to-do lists written down, and even just, like, often in conversations, I’ll write down notes.

Writing down notes is part of one of the secrets to, I feel, like, my success, with my being organized. But to have things just, like, written here, keeping my priorities very clear for the day. Checking them off is so gratifying. That is my favorite habit.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to resonate with folks, they quote it back to you often?

Madeline Mann
“Your resume is a sales page, not a Wikipedia page.”

Pete Mockaitis
I like it. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Madeline Mann
I would say, find me at MadelineMann.com. You can find me there. You can also find me all across different social media channels, YouTube, “Self-Made Millennial,” LinkedIn, all of that. But, yes, MadelineMann.com as a core hub.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Madeline Mann
“What’s the best that could happen?” Okay. I want you to think of that every time you go out of your comfort zone, where it’s comfortable, it’s crowded. So, get uncomfortable in the job search. And every time you do something that feels a little funky, reach out to someone new, just think, “What’s the best that can happen?”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Madeline, fabulous. Thank you.

Madeline Mann
Thank you.