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May 04
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567: Achieve More While Criticizing Yourself Less: The Power of Self-Compassion with Kristin Neff

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Kristin Neff says: "The drive to achieve doesn't come from the self-criticism... it comes from the fact that we want to do our best."

Professor and author Kristin Neff shares how self-compassion yields bigger results with less unpleasant self-talk… and how it can help manage anxiety during a crisis.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Why self-compassion is a better motivator than criticism 
  2. How to turn your compassion for others inward 
  3. The value of tone and touch in self-compassion 

About Kristin

Kristin Neff is a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research, creating a scale to measure the construct over fifteen years ago. She is author of the book Self-Compassion: The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself. In conjunction with her colleague Dr. Chris Germer, she has developed an empirically supported training program called Mindful Self-Compassion, which is taught by thousands of teachers worldwide. 

Kristin received her doctorate from the University of California at Berkeley, studying moral development. She is currently an Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. 

Resources mentioned in the show:

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Kristin Neff Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Kristin, thanks for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Kristin Neff
Oh, thanks, Pete. Glad to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, we’ve got a lot of fun stuff to dig into. But one unique thing we learned about you in research is that you were featured in a documentary called “The Horse Boy.” What is this story all about?

Kristin Neff
Yeah. So, it was a crazy adventure my family took with my son. So, my son is autistic, and when he was very young, my ex-husband, his father, he had done a lot of work, Human Rights work, with various indigenous people. And so, we met some people like the bushmen from the Kalahari, and we noticed that my son kind of seemed to get better when he was around shamans, and they kind of worked on him, and he really seem to have an improvement in symptoms, and then my son also learned to talk on horseback, on the back of a horse.

“Okay, where in the world combines horses with shamanism?” And, of course, the answer was Mongolia because if that’s where the horse comes from and shamanism is in that region, so he got this crazy idea, “Why don’t we go to Mongolia and ride through, out of Mongolia, visiting shamans on horseback and see what it does for our son?”

And so, he talked me into it, and it was an amazing adventure. He actually did have a lot of improvements. Now, I don’t know why, maybe it’s just the family adventure and really new contacts that led to the improvements, but the whole idea was, “Can autism be an adventure as opposed to a death sentence?” And it really was an adventure.

And I have to say, you know, my son now, he’s 18, it’s just me and him now with us closed down in the pandemic, he’s the most amazing kid. He never complains. He’s so sweet. He’s so positive. He says things like, “Well, who knows, it may get better tomorrow.” He cleans up after me in the kitchen. He’s just such a wonderful soul. And part of me wonders, “Is that because when he was growing up, we never made his autism a pathology? We always just considered it a gift.” And, yeah, he’s truly amazing.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good to hear.

Kristin Neff
That’s my other life.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, so, that’s really cool, and thanks for sharing that. And a good perspective, I think, here, when your other life is as an expert on self-compassion. You sort of own that phrase or hyphenated word combo. So, what does that mean exactly and how is that helpful?

Kristin Neff
So, self-compassion is really just using the experience we have all the time of compassion for others, especially people we care about, doing a little U-turn, so we give ourselves compassion. So, it’s just treating yourself with kindness, support, care, concern, just like you would naturally do for others.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, that sounds like a good thing to do. Tell us, what is that in contrast to? If people were not self-compassionate, what are we?

Kristin Neff
Yeah. So, a lot of people are confused about self-compassion. They think it’s self-pity, or that it’s the same as self-esteem, or that it’s self-indulgent. It’s really none of those things, and there’s actually research to show that. It’s just simply a way of relating to yourself with kindness, care, and support. Now, most people actually, we show in my research, tend to be pretty self-critical, right? Most people, if you ask them, “Who are you more compassionate to, others or yourself?” a vast majority are more compassionate to others than themselves. So, really, self-compassion is a way of correcting that imbalance.

Instead of shaming ourselves because we aren’t perfect, or just feeling so isolated because our life isn’t going the way we want it to as if life is supposed to go exactly the way we want it to, we just kind of embrace our imperfection, we realize this is part of the shared human experience, and we support ourselves through.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, can you give us some maybe real-world examples in terms of when we’re speaking to ourselves in a self-critical way versus a self-compassionate way? Well, we’ll start with that, and I’ve got much more to dig into there.

Kristin Neff
Yeah. So, motivation is a really good context to see the difference between self-criticism and self-compassion because most people very naturally think that self-criticism is an effective motivator. And the thing is it kind of is, it’s kind of like a steam engine that burns coal. It’ll get you up the hill but it spits out a lot of smoke, right? So, self-criticism, although it can motivate us, it has unintended effects like we develop performance anxiety, “Because if I don’t do as well as I’d like to, I’m going to beat myself up.” We often develop fear of failure which can lead to things like procrastination, right? Oftentimes, when we fail, we just give up because we can’t handle risking, our sense of self again by trying.

So, self-compassion, on the other hand, it’s also very strong leaning to motivation, and more effective motivation than self-criticism. So, we try not because we’re unacceptable as we are, it’s simply because we care about ourselves. We want to achieve our best. And so, with that sense of unconditional safety, in other words, the bottom line is if you fail, you’re still going to be okay, “I will still love myself but I will try again because I care and I want to do better.”

And so, people are less likely to procrastinate, they’re less likely to develop anxiety, they actually perform better for that reason, and they don’t give up as easily, they have more grit. So, again, there’s a ton of research on this showing that it’s a better motivator than self-criticism.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, now, those are some nice benefits. So, more motivation, less procrastination, more grit, I think you said less anxiety, or maybe I just inferred that.

Kristin Neff
Yes. No, absolutely less anxiety, less depression.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you share, I love recent research and some data and some numbers, what is perhaps one of the most striking in terms of, “Ooh, those are really impressive results and numbers there” kind of study or research do you think folks who want to be awesome at their jobs would be impressed to hear about?

Kristin Neff
Yeah. Well, so here’s something pretty remarkable. Some people think that self-compassion is weak. Self-compassion, when the going gets tough, is remarkable source of resilience. So, I’ll just give you an example of the study looking at combat veterans who had come back from Iraq or Afghanistan. And so, they measured their self-compassion levels, these veterans, and they followed the veterans up for nine months. And they found that self-compassion, those soldiers with higher self-compassion, were much less likely to develop post-traumatic stress disorder.

But here’s the kicker. Self-compassion level was even a stronger predictor of how much action they had seen. So, in other words, in terms of how traumatized you are, more important than like how much action you saw, how much gore or violence you experienced, more important than that in terms of how traumatized you are, it’s, “How did you relate to yourself in the midst of that trauma. Were you an ally? Did you have your own back? Did you support yourself? Were you kind? Or do you tear yourself down?”

For instance, if you have shame, a lot of veterans, combat soldiers, have a lot of feelings of shame, like maybe what they’re doing is wrong, and they tear themselves down and they criticize themselves, and there’s a huge problem with attempted suicide among the veterans, but not those who have self-compassion. If you teach vets to have self-compassion, they’re much less likely to try to commit suicide. So, those are the types of really strong findings we get, really showing how strong it makes you. It makes you very strong.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s excellent. So, then with motivation, can you share one of those studies?

Kristin Neff
Yeah, I can. Okay. So, there’s a great study by a woman named, two of them, at UC Berkeley, my alma mater in California. And so, what they did is they had a group of undergraduates in their study, and they gave them a very hard vocabulary test that everyone failed. And so, they split these subjects, these undergraduates into three groups.

One group they told, they helped to be self-compassionate, “No, don’t beat yourself up about it. Everyone fails. It’s okay. We’re only human, right? So, just be kind to yourself.” Another group they didn’t say anything, they were just the neutral control. But the third group they said, “Hey, don’t worry about it. You must be smart. You got into Berkeley for goodness’ sakes,” so self-esteem boost condition.

And then the next step of the study was they gave the students a second test, and they said, “Okay. Well, here’s a second test. You can study as long as you want for this second vocabulary test.” And what they found was that the students who were told to be self-compassionate, they studied more, they studied longer, and they actually performed better on the test.

So, this kind of shows you, we talk so much about self-esteem, about self-confidence, it’s actually much more important just to be kind and supportive to yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
So, let’s zoom right into that example in terms of, okay, here I am, I took the test and it didn’t go awesomely. And I’ve got an opportunity to take another, and I am following self-compassion approaches. What would I say and/or do to myself?

Kristin Neff
Well, so first of all, what self-compassion does is it makes it okay to fail. And, more than that, it helps us recognize that we learn from failure, right? So, self-compassion allows us to have what they call learning goals as oppose to performance goals, “I want to do well so I can learn and grow,” as oppose to, “Because I need other people to like me.” Because when you have self-compassion, you don’t need other people to like you. Your sense of self-worth is a contingent another people approving of you, or you’re getting the grade you want, or the job performance evaluations you want, right?

And so, people might think, “Well, if I don’t care about my job performance evaluations, then why should I even keep trying?” The thing is you do still care about getting positive evaluations but your self-worth isn’t contingent on it. So, if you get a poor evaluation, or you fail a test, the idea is you can say to yourself, “Oh, first of all, hey, that hurt.” Kind of validating the fact that it hurts, “That hurt. But it’s okay. Everyone fails and everyone is imperfect. What can I learn from this situation? How can I grow from this?”

And then that orientation towards learning and growth because you want to do better, not because you have to be better to be a good enough person, but just because you want to do better because you care. That’s actually the engine that drives you to do better, and it’s more sustainable and it’s more effective.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Excellent. Well, so now, I don’t want to make this all about the coronavirus, but it’s top of mind for a lot of folks.

Kristin Neff
Sure, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think that’s kind of part of the context of why we thought your stuff would be just right for us right now. So, it was funny, just today as I was prepping, I read this Onion headline which just cracks me up, the parody newspaper there. It says, “Man Not Sure Why He Thought Most Psychologically Taxing Situation Of His Life Would Be The Thing To Make Him Productive.”

Kristin Neff
Right, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And then toward the end, it says, “I thought I’ll have all this energy and space to focus on my creative side, but I guess living with ever-present, crushing uncertainty and the knowledge that people all around me are dying wasn’t the stimulus I needed after all.”

And so, we had another guest, Liz Fosslien who shared a lovely graphic on LinkedIn about productivity, like, “Hey, how productive am I normally? How productive am I during an unprecedented global pandemic?” the bar chart is way shorter, it could fit. And so, I think that this is a common experience, I’m feeling it and others are as well, that, “Huh, here I have, in some ways, fewer obligations upon me,” this varies wildly person to person, but some people like, you know when plans get cancelled, you’re like, “Oh, hey, I guess I’m freed up well and away.” A lot of things have been cancelled, yet even those of us who are healthy and not attending to someone in a tough spot, physically, medically…

Kristin Neff
Or parents watching their kids.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly, yeah, can find ourselves with a malaise, a reduction of energy, productivity, etc., and can be hard on themselves as a result, like, “Come on, man. Where’s the juice? Where’s all the stuff you were crushing before? It’s uncrushed.” Can you comment on how do we deal with this in a self-compassionate way and what results might flow from that?

Kristin Neff
Yeah. So, it’s really important, I’ve actually, again, several programs helping people use self-compassion to deal with the anxiety about the pandemic. So, self-compassion actually has three main components. The first is mindfulness. In other words, we have to be willing to check in with ourselves, “How am I feeling?” I think what’s happening for a lot of people is they’re making sure they have enough groceries, they’re kind of getting through each day, they’re making sure they’re wearing their masks.

They’re really focused on keeping themselves safe but they haven’t paused to say, “Hey, this is really hard. I’m really fearful. Maybe I’m grieving, or I feel really stressed, or I feel lonely,” whatever it is you’re feeling. We kind of don’t do that U-turn to say, “Wow, I’m having a really hard time right now.” And you actually need to be mindful first in order to give yourself compassion.

And then, maybe toward their friends, they’re being supportive, or maybe to your elderly parents you’re being supportive, but often we forget to be supportive with ourselves. If ever there was a time when we need emotional support, where we need kindness, it’s right now. So, again, and that may be in the form of warm language with ourselves, a warm tone of voice, kind of reminding ourselves that we have our own backs, we can depend on ourselves, that we’re here. And that’s especially important because most of us feel really isolated, right?

One of the real benefits of self-compassion, again, is it connects to other people, it connects to humanity. So, the difference between self-pity and self-compassion, self-pity is, “Woe is me,” self-compassion is, “Yeah, life is hard for everyone. Everyone is imperfect. Everyone struggles,” right? It’s a much more balanced state of mind.

And so, sometimes we’re feeling lonely because we’re all alone in our house perhaps, but then it’s very easy nowadays to remember, “Hey, it’s not just me. There’s actually about 2 billion other people, or maybe 3 billion at this point, who are also struggling with the same situation.” So, even though physically we may be alone, emotionally, as long as we remember this, “Not just me,” we can actually feel more connected.

And so, just going through these three little steps: be mindful of your pain, being kind to yourself because it’s hard, and just remembering that you aren’t alone, this is bigger than you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. That is great. And I love it when you sort of talk of the internal mental self-talk stuff. Are there any really just like go-to, I don’t know, mantras, scripts, phrases that you love or you found to be work with love in terms of like breaking the pattern of, “You’re so stupid. Why did you do that? Aargh!” to quickly kind of regain control and put it on a better path?

Kristin Neff
Yes. So, everyone uses different language, and really the easiest way to find the language that works for you is to think, “What if I had a really loved close friend who was going through the exact same situation I’m going through?” And, actually, in this case, you probably do. “How would I talk to them?” So, me, I tend to be a little more, I don’t know, mushy, I guess you would call it, so I call myself sweetheart and darling, and my tone of voice is almost like a mother. I also have an autistic child so I’m very used to using that warm motherly tone.

But, for many people, that tone would make them gag, right? Some people maybe, “Hey, buck up. It’s going to be okay.” But there’s a difference between “Buck up. It’s going to be okay,” which is like, “You should be better,” and, “Hey, buck up. It’s going to be okay.” You know what it means?

Pete Mockaitis
So, the tone of voice of the voice inside your head matters.

Kristin Neff
It matters a lot.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Kristin Neff
And not only tone of voice but touch. So, the first two years of life we don’t have language, right? We can’t really communicate with our parents, so the two main ways we communicate with parents, that they communicate care to us is touch and tone of voice. And so, what we know is that warm tone of voice and soothing or supportive touch actually activates the parasympathetic nervous system, which means it calms us down, it makes us feel supported, it makes us feel safe.

So, you can put your hands on your heart, or on your stomach, or on your face as long as you wash your hands, or hug, or something like that, some sort of physical gesture that makes you feel safe and supported. And even if it seems a little odd at first and, I’ll admit it, it does seem odd at first, your body doesn’t really know the difference, right? So, it’s not that your body doesn’t know the difference between self and others, but your body reacts the same way when you give yourself supportive touch as when you give it to others, right?

And then, again, if you use a warm tone, that’s another way that your body just kind of naturally says, “Oh, okay. Relax, it’s safe.” So, really, just say, “What would I say to a dear friend?” and try that out, and that’s probably your best bet for language.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, and it’s funny, there are some different kinds of touch. I don’t know, in some of these interviews, I often go to humor, like The Onion. Now I’m thinking about a Key & Peele sketch where there’s a football player is really into patting people’s butts, but that might be it for you if you have that…

Kristin Neff
Maybe.

Pete Mockaitis
…career, or I’ve got one of those little headscratcher thingies, you know, these wires.

Kristin Neff
All right, yeah. That could be.

Pete Mockaitis
I think those feel awesome in terms of like, “Hmm.”

Kristin Neff
Headscratchers, or kind of fist bump on the chest, or something like that. Absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Okay. Well, so I want to make sure we also hit the notion of, you know, for the gunners, the achievers who are all about having high standards, high expectations, demanding excellence. How do these things square and work together?

Kristin Neff
Yeah, so the research shows that self-compassionate people, their standards are just as high as everyone else’s because high standards comes from wanting to reach your full potential, wanting to be happy, wanting to do your best. The huge difference is what happens when you don’t meet your standards? Because we’re human beings, sometimes we reach our standards, sometimes we don’t.

And so, if you’re very self-critical when you fall short of your standards, you might be like, “That’s not acceptable. You have to do better or else.” The threat is kind of like, “Or else I won’t love you, or else I’ll say mean things to you, or else I’ll hate you.” We say these to ourselves. And, again, that actually undermines our ability to do our best because it creates a sense of anxiety, right?

So, in other words, the drive to achieve doesn’t come from the self-criticism. The drive to achieve comes from the fact that we want to do our best. And so, when we stumble, which, by the way, I’m sure you’ve had a ton of people on the show saying, “Of course, we learn from our failures. That’s the best way we learn.” So, when we’re kind and supportive to ourselves, we remember that. And when we fail, we pick ourselves up and try again.

Now, having said this, sometimes the right response is to give up. Sometimes we’re barking up the wrong tree. Sometimes it’s good to change careers, for instance, if it’s just not really working out for you. That’s a matter of wisdom. You don’t want to be stupid with this, and say, “I’ve got to achieve every single goal I set out for myself.” We need wisdom to say, “Hey, that’s an achievable goal.” Or maybe another goal would be better for you. And so, with wisdom and kindness and encouragement it works.

So, I’ll give you an example. My son, he was actually homeschooled for most of his life, and I finally put him into public school, and his testing was kind of like treasure hunts. It wasn’t standard testing. So, the first test he had, World Geography test, he came home, he got an F. I mean, just like flat F. And so, I couldn’t try to motivate him with the way we often motivate ourselves, which is, “You stupid loser. You’ll never amount to anything.”

If you think about this, what would the effect of that be on him? It’s not like making him say, “Yes, I can do it.” Of course not. That’s going to make him feel shame and want to give up. And the same thing with ourselves. Often, really harsh language makes us feel shamed, and shame is not exactly a “get up and go” mind state.

So, what I did was, first of all, I gave him a hug, “Hey, it’s okay. Everyone fails. It’s just part of the learning process.” But did I leave it there? Of course not. I care about my son. I don’t want him to fail in his class. So, I called all his teachers, and I figured out what was going on. We realized there were some study methods that weren’t working for him so we changed his study methods. We also changed the way he took his tests and now he’s doing great.

And so, that’s what compassion gives you. It’s like bottom line, “It’s okay to fail. I still love myself. It’s unconditional. And, yet, because I care, I want to do my best so I’m going to use my wisdom to figure out how to do my best.” It’s not like, “I have to do my best or else.” It’s, “I really want you to do your best. How could I help?” And that supportive attitude is actually much more effective.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Excellent. And so, I think I’m picking up what you’re putting down there, and I think the tone is really interesting in terms of to just really…even though the voice inside your head is not audible, it has a tone.

Kristin Neff
Like, the self-critic does, doesn’t it? Some people say, “Oh, it seems so strange to talk to myself,” but it doesn’t seem strange when you beat yourself up, does it? It’s just that we’re used to that voice so we don’t even notice it, what’s going on in our head all the time. So, we’re just learning to have a second voice.

And, by the way, the self-critic does not want to get rid of that. Often, our self-critical thoughts point out places where we’re going wrong. It’s just ways that we’re trying to actually help ourselves to do better. It’s just not effective. So, we can say to our inner critic, “Oh, thank you for trying to help me. Got it. I hear you. And, now, how am I going to go about achieving that goal in a way that’s actually a little more conducive to success?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Kristin, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention regarding self-compassion and related subjects for those wanting to be awesome at their jobs?

Kristin Neff
Right. So, just, for instance, one of the things we know is that self-compassion enhances creativity. So, if you want to be awesome at your job, it’s important that you’re creative. But if you beat yourself up all the time, what we know is that negative mind state actually gets in the way of being creative and thinking out of the box. But, again, when the bottom line is, “I’m safe. I care about myself. And if I were to fail, it’s okay,” that sense of safety gives you more freedom to think out of the box and think creatively. So, it’s really useful in all sorts of ways, on the job, off the job. Really, any time you might experience challenge.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Lovely. Well, now, can you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Kristin Neff
Okay. Well, there’s a quote from Helen Keller that I love, and she says, “When one door of happiness closes, another usually opens. But we usually spend so long staring at the closed door, we don’t even see the one that has been opened for us.”

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you.

Kristin Neff
And so, self-compassion, that’s when we’re optimistic because we don’t just stare at the closed door, we kind of feel safe and then we can look around and say, “Oh, well, what other opportunities are here for me?”

Pete Mockaitis
And I think that’s excellent in the coronavirus context because, it’s true, some doors are closed and it sucks.

Kristin Neff
Exactly. It does suck.

Pete Mockaitis
And, yet, some other doors have opened. And so, you got to make sure you’re being fully aware and honest and making some prudent calls about where you’re pointing that attention, so thank you.

Kristin Neff
That’s right. On the other hand, it’s important also to give yourself compassion for the fact that it does suck. We don’t have to be chipper and positive. We can just take some time and say, “This is just really, really hard. This sucks. Oh.” And then that will actually help us get through it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. And how about a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Kristin Neff
So, a favorite study, experiment, or a bit of research. So, here’s one, very simple in terms of the fact that you really can change your self-compassion level. So, one study had people write a self-compassionate letter to themselves, which is just basically using mindfulness and kindness, and reminding themselves of their humanity. A letter for seven days straight. And they found that just that simple act of writing yourself a compassionate letter decreased depression for three months and increased happiness for six months. So, it had really long-term effects, a very simple practice like this.

So, this is something you can fold into your everyday life. You don’t actually have to write a letter. Just remembering these three components, just remembering mindfulness, common humanity, and kindness can make a huge difference in your life.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite book?

Kristin Neff
A favorite book. Well, I’m going to pick a book called “Radical Acceptance” by Tara Brach. She’s one of my favorite teachers. She’s actually a Buddhist meditation teacher. It’s just a beautiful book talking about, yeah, what happens, the transformation that happens when we just radically accept ourselves.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Kristin Neff
SPSS.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, great.

Kristin Neff
Which is a statistical program.

Pete Mockaitis
I’ve used it before. Oh, man, memories. Select cases. All right.

Kristin Neff
That’s right, yeah. So, you can calculate your P values. And P value doesn’t mean your enemy is like probability values, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
I was always terrified if I clicked one setting a little bit off it would ruin everything.

Kristin Neff
Yeah, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite habit, something you do that helps you be awesome at your job?

Kristin Neff
Well, I do yoga. I do Ashtanga yoga. So, I do that three times a week. And I find when I do that, it just really helps my energy out in more productive way and keeps me flexible. And so, I think that helps me, even though I sit in my chair all day for my job, I think it helps that I get out of the chair at least three times a week to do some Ashtanga yoga.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, we had a previous guest say Ashtanga yoga was amazing for making bodily pain disappear. Has that been your experience?

Kristin Neff
Well, it’s funny. I mean, I’m 53 and my body is in pretty good shape, and I don’t have a lot of chronic pain so I don’t know if that’s just good genes or what. But it’s worked out for me. It also makes you strong which is nice.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool.

Kristin Neff
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a particular nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate and get repeated back to you frequently?

Kristin Neff
Yeah. So, one of the nuggets I like to share, actually, along with my colleague Chris Germer, we developed something called The Mindful Self-Compassion Program. But the nugget is the goal of practice, whatever practice, meditation practice or just life practice, the goal of practice is simply to become a compassionate mess. If you make sure that’s your goal, that you don’t have to not be a mess, your goal is just to be a compassionate mess. Well, that’s an achievable goal, right? And so, if you start framing things that way, you realize, “Okay. Well, maybe my goal should be more about compassion than about getting everything perfect or right.”

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Kristin Neff
Well, just Google self-compassion. Like I say, I got in early so if you Google self-compassion, you can spell it any way you want to, you’ll find my website. And I have research on there, hundreds of articles. You can test your own self-compassion level with my scale I developed. You can practice exercises, there’s videos, so it’s really a one-stop shopping resource for self-compassion, and it’s all free.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Kristin Neff
Yes. So, really, I think it is around motivation. So, the next time you have a big work task, a big work challenge, just really pause and say, “How can I encourage and support myself to get this done?” especially if your habitual way of encouraging yourself is using the whip approach. See if you can change from the whip to support. Try it out and just see what happens.

Pete Mockaitis
That is lovely. And could you give us just a couple examples? Like, how can I support and challenge myself? Part of me, what I’m thinking, is I will decide a celebration after this is done, or I will break this task into a dozen tiny tasks so they feel more manageable, and I’m just like, “Okay, I can pull up that email. I can identify the three deliverables, and so forth.” So, anyway, those are my examples. What else do you see works?

Kristin Neff
Yeah. So, a lot of strategies are kind of more concrete strategies which are really great and really important in terms of actually how to do your work more effectively. But don’t underestimate your emotional state of mind and how that affects your ability to do your best, right? So, if you’re really tense, and you’re kind of like, “Oh, I’ve got to get this right.” That tension, that anxiety is actually going to undermine your ability to do your best.

But if your attitude is, “Hey, I got your back. I know you can do it. But, you know, if you make a mistake, that’s okay. That’s how you’re going to learn.” And that’s really the kind of self-compassionate mind state, “How can I learn from my mistakes?” And then if you try that, it actually will help you be less anxious, and you’ll actually be less likely to make mistakes. But if you do, you’ll be more likely to pick yourself up and try again. So, it’s really more how you relate to what you’re doing as opposed to what you’re doing.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, Kristin, thank you. This has been a treat. I wish you lots of luck in all your adventures and much kindness to yourself.

Kristin Neff
Ah, thank you, Pete. Be well and be safe.

Apr 30
0

Winning the Mental Game of Quarantine

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Pete shares his thoughts that have been helpful–and unhelpful–in preserving mental health amid the quarantine.

Resources mentioned in the show:

Apr 27
0

566: How to Start Focusing and Stop Firefighting with Mike Michalowicz

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Mike Michalowicz shares how to zero in on the most important issues to fix next.

You’ll Learn:

  1. How to identify what you need to fix next.
  2. A crucial question you’re forgetting to ask.
  3. The tremendous energy unleashed by providing context for goals.

About Mike

Mike Michalowicz is the entrepreneur behind three multimillion dollar companies and is the author of Profit First, Clockwork, The Pumpkin Plan, and his newest book, Fix This Next: Make the Vital Change That Will Level Up Your Business. Mike is a former small business columnist for The Wall Street Journal and regularly travels the globe as an entrepreneurial advocate.

Resources mentioned in the show:

Thank you Sponsors!

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Mike Michalowicz Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Mike, thanks so much for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Mike Michalowicz
Pete, it’s my joy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. Well, I’m excited. I’ve really enjoyed your audiobooks, and you’re kind of a goofball which I am too, so I think feel free to cut loose here. It’s interesting. We had another guest, Simon Sinek, who dubs you as a top contender for the patron saint of entrepreneurs, which is high praise.

Mike Michalowicz
Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m familiar with some stories of saints, and often they include heroically facing adversity. And one of my favorite stories from you involves a tough night at dinner, and some people coming to your aid. Can you share that with us to frame up what you’re all about?

Mike Michalowicz
Yeah, yeah. So, I started my entrepreneurial journey very early in life right after college and had a couple of early wins under my belt. I sold my first tech company. I was in computer technology. My first tech company was a private equity exit. My second company was a Fortune 500 acquired us, and I’m like, “I am hot shit. I know everything,” which, by the way, seems like to be the impetus or the start of a downfall for many a person when we believe we know all. And I was just full of arrogance and ignorance.

Well, I started a third business that I leave off my CV conveniently as an angel investor, and I sucked at it. I had no idea what I was doing. I thought, “Hey, I’m so smart I know everything about business. As long as I’m here, we’re making money.” I started 10 companies, and within a mere six months, all of them were out of business. I was paying bills for businesses that didn’t even exist anymore and, also, just blew money on just arrogance.

The big house, I got a place in Hawaii for our sabbatical, our family sabbatical. I just blew money on cars and all stuff. And it took me two years, I got a call from my accountant, he says, “Mike, you hit rock bottom. I think you should declare personal bankruptcy,” something actually I didn’t do. I thought I was responsible. But, as a consequence, I had to lose my possessions. We lost our house 30 days later, cars, everything.

I came home the night I heard this from my accountant, and had to face my family because I hadn’t been telling them the truth of the struggles. I really did think, you know, I had a bank account that was dwindling at an exponential rate, somehow, someone would come in and save the day and acquire this mess I had created, but nothing happened. And I came home to my family and told them, “We’re done. We lost it all.” And I was sobbing. I was just devastated. And I had to face my wife, and say, “I’m sorry. We’re losing the house, and we’re losing our cars, and we’re losing our possessions.”

My daughter was nine years old at the time, and she’s sitting there, and I said, “I’m so sorry but I can’t afford for you to go to horseback riding lessons.” That was like 25 bucks for a group session. And she stood up and just ran away. Everyone was crying. And she ran away. I thought she was running away from me. She ran away to her bedroom to grab her piggybank, and she ran back down to me as fast as she could, and she says, “Daddy, since you can’t provide for us, please use my money to support us.” I think I’m getting chills just thinking about it.

I’ve said that story so many times it’s still as devastating. I was so ashamed of who I was, and the arrogance, and the ignorance. And then I forced my daughter, my nine-year old daughter, to save me? Well, that triggered years of struggle for me to reconcile that. I actually went through a depression, I drank, and ultimately discovered that that moment actually has become a source of light, a seedling for me, to realize I didn’t know much about entrepreneurship, that I had to fix these things. And that became a spark for being an author.

I write my business books to solve problems not only for others but for my own problems, my own misunderstandings around business, and simplify the journey and, hopefully, prevent others from experiencing the fallacies and the arrogance and ignorance that I did.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that is powerful, and thank you for sharing that again with our audience here.

Mike Michalowicz
My joy.

Pete Mockaitis
So, you are renowned as an author for entrepreneurs and small business owners. And in chatting with your publicity folks, I was like, “Well, I love Mike’s flavor, but we’ve got a little bit of a different audience here, which is more so professionals, kind of in the middle of the hierarchy as opposed to the owners.” But there’s a lot of great sort of tools and frameworks and approaches that are totally applicable in your next opus here, “Fix This Next.” So, can you orient us a little bit in terms of what’s the book about and why is it helpful?

Mike Michalowicz
Yeah. So, what I did is I wanted to figure out, “Is there a common DNA or structure for businesses?” And I’m convinced I found it. And it’s something that we all can use regardless of our title or role. We all have a responsibility for the health of the business because collectively it moves us altogether. So, what I did was I wanted to see if there’s a common DNA.

And I, first, started looking at humanity ourselves – me, you, everyone listening in. If you look at the essence of who we are, we’re identical. If you peel back the stuff we judge, the skin, the height, male, female, and we look at the essence of it, the makeup is basically the same. If I was having a heart attack, the doctor wouldn’t say to me, “Where’s your heart? Do you keep it in your foot? Is it in your ear?” No. The heart is in the same place for all humanity, so they know how to operate on us.

Well, the same is true for business. If we peel back the skin of the business, a manufacturer versus a professional services company, or vice versa, we will find there’s a common structure, that’s what I call the business hierarchy of needs. The business hierarchy of needs, I translated from Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, which defines human needs.

So, this is a quick session on Maslow. Maslow studied human needs and discovered and argues that all of us have base physiological needs. We need to breathe water, I’m sorry, breathe water. Breathe air, drink water, eat food. And if those needs aren’t being satisfied, then we can’t survive. But once they’re satisfied, we go to the next level which is safety needs. We need protection from the elements or harm. Once that’s satisfied, we move onto the longing, the need for relationships, and so forth. And we keep on climbing up ultimately to self-actualization.

But, if at any time, a base-level need is not satisfied, let’s say you and I are having this conversation, we consider it intellectual conversation, we consider it as part of self-actualization, if I start choking on the food I’m eating, well, all of a sudden, my Maslow hierarchy brings me right down to the physiological need of getting that out of my throat.

Well, our business has a hierarchy of needs too. Real quickly, they are sales, that’s the foundation, that’s the creation of oxygen for business; profit, the creation of stability for an organization, without it a business can’t sustain; order, the creation of efficiency, consistency; then there’s impact, which is the creation of transformation, it’s where we have service to our clients beyond the transaction, beyond the commodity; and the highest level is legacy, the creation of permanence, where there’s no dependency on the people that are running the operation, the company is designed for its continued service, and others can come and go, but the business lives on permanently.

The difference between Maslow’s hierarchy and the business hierarchy, while they’re very similar, is one great distinction. Maslow talked about human needs and how we are biologically, neurologically wired into our needs. If you and I, Pete, are walking down a dark alley, and we get the creeps, like someone is going to kill us, what will we do? We will, hopefully, turn around and walk out. And we should because our senses – sight, smell, touch – those senses are triggering, “There’s danger here.”

But the thing is we, as business professionals, are not neurologically wired into our business. We say we trust our gut. I think this is what we got to do. I can feel it. But, really, we need the empirical data to evaluate exactly what the true needs in our business, focus on that, resolve that, and then move onto the next need, resolve that, and so forth, and continue to progress forward.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, certainly. And so then, let’s talk about the particulars for how that really can be transformational for folks. I’d love to hear some tales about some professionals, some organizations, who applied some of this rigor to great effect.

Mike Michalowicz
Yeah. So, I’ll share a coffee shop that does this, and the team rallied around it with what’s going on. As we’re recording this, with the economic crisis, COVID, this company is responding. And let’s evaluate the business hierarchy needs just a little bit further. So, the business hierarchy needs, the five levels, the foundational need is sales. Now, again, the sales is the creation of cash. If your product, your service, your company, your division does not have consistent sales, is not bringing oxygen into that division, so we need to address that first.

And you address it to the adequate levels of supporting profit. That’s actually the simplest base question, “Do I have enough sales to support profitability? If I don’t, we have a sales issue. If we do have sales so we have profit, but we’re not profitable, we actually have a profit issue. Do we have enough margin? Are we controlling the debt we have, and so forth?” Once profit is addressed, we ask ourselves, “Is it adequate to support the layer above it, which is order, efficiency?”

Now, one argument I want to make here is that we’re not ignoring efficiency. You have to have some order and efficiencies in our sales process when we’re doing that. You have to have some system for profitability. I’m just saying this one becomes your concentrated effort. You don’t ignore sales when you’re working on order. You continue it but they must work in relation.

When you get to the order level, this is where it becomes our concentration to resolve efficiency. Now, actually, let me start off with this story because I think it’s the best. This is Ole Miss, the University of Mississippi, it’s in the SEC conference. I mean, talking about an organization, thousands and thousands, actually, I think tens of thousands of employees, a massive organization. They implemented the business hierarchy of needs in their own form. They did this before I wrote the book, but they’re far in this process inherently.

And what they noticed back in, I believe, it was the early 2000s, that the school had noticeably less applicants than any of the other SEC schools. So, the first thing we do is, when we have a problem, we ask ourselves, “Where does this reside in this hierarchy?” Well, application is as similar as prospects. They have less prospects, and that’s a sales-level need. So, the company identified, “Okay, we have a need in the sales level, the most foundational level of the business hierarchy.”

Then they asked, “What’s the triggers behind it?” And they went through a process called OMEN. I write about it in the “Fix This Next” book, but OMEN stands for Objective, Measurement, Evaluation frequency, Nurture. It simply means identify what the problem is, measure the process, regularly revisit it, and tweak and change things as we move along, nurture.

They identified this challenge of not getting enough prospects, and they start interviewing prospects of why they aren’t signing up. And they find that the primary reason is the campus ain’t so pretty. One of the biggest determining factors of a student picking a college happens within the first five minutes of visiting a campus. It’s their first impression. And back then, Ole Miss didn’t have such a pretty campus. So, they realized, “We have an issue.”

They then went to their frontline, the people that beautify the campus, the landscape maintenance team, and they said, “We need a more attractive campus. What do we need to do?” Well, interesting, and this happens sometimes in the business hierarchy that needs get interlinked. And the maintenance team said, “Well, we want to do beautification projects. We don’t have enough time.” Now, their campus is a thousand plus acres, that’s a lot of acreage to maintain, and they only have a crew of a certain size, and so Ole Miss was forced upon a decision, “Do we double or triple our team, or do we enable our team to find alternative solutions?”

Well, it wasn’t in their budget to triple the maintenance team so the team had to figure it out. And one thing they noticed is the biggest time-consuming element, now this is an efficiency thing, an order level, one of the challenges at the order level was how long it took to mow or maintain the properties. When they were mowing, the fastest way to mow a property is to go in a straight line. But when they were coming upon trees, they had to navigate around the low-hanging limbs. When they got to a mulch pattern, that was in a square, they had to kind of jostle around that pattern. And when a garbage can was in the grass, they had to kind of go around and get out with the weed whacker.

So, the team said, “If we want to increase efficiency here, cut the limbs off the tree so we can go right under them, 10 feet high,” which, by the way, is a great way to beautify trees, they raised the limbs. They said, “Change the square patterns and angular patterns of mulch always to an oval so we can do sweeping motions right around it and continue on.” They made decisions to increase efficiency which allowed them now to maintain the property in half the time, freeing up the other half of their time to work on beautification of the campus.

Well, fast-forward only a mere few years, Ole Miss became the most beautiful campus. It has the reputation for the most beautiful campus in the SEC conference, perhaps in all of the nation, one of the top-rated campuses on attraction, on its beauty. And you won’t be surprised, they had an exponential increase in their prospects, their applications. So, that’s an example where leadership identified, “We have a problem.” But instead of just saying, “We got to fix the way this place looks,” they looked at the hierarchy, and said, “This is a sales issue. Where do prospects first enter the campus?” That was their first beautification project was near the administration building where students will come in, the students center, and so forth.

They spoke with the frontline, the people that are closest to the problem, and got their direction. And in this case, they killed two birds with one stone. They brought efficiency to their organization at the order level while addressing a sales issue. So, that’s an example of how this business hierarchy of needs is a great way to diagnose and pinpoint what we need to work on.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that is awesome. And, boy, way back in the day, we interviewed Jeff McManus, who leads up the team.

Mike Michalowicz
Oh, yeah, Jeff is the leader of that team. Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, yeah, he shared some more elements to the story, so that was fun. Well, so then, I imagine then in a business or an organization, you’re going to come up with dozens or hundreds of problems or opportunities, as my favorite reference, that you’d notice that could benefit from some attention. So, if you’re thinking about the hierarchy of needs, how do you determine who wins? I mean, do the sales issues always win because they’re at the base of the needs? Or, how do we kind of navigate and triage that?

Mike Michalowicz
Great question. As opportunities or challenges present themselves, you always address the base level first because if the base is compromised, the entire foundation of the structure is. I set a reference to that coffee shop so let me explain how they did this. This coffee shop was growing, and multiple team members, they built a second location, they then opened a roastery facility where they’re preparing coffee. And what they noticed is they’ve been in business for 13 years, and rapidly growing coffee companies. It’s called Cottonwood Coffee, by the way, in South Dakota.

And the leader of that organization, his name is Jacob, noticed that when he looked at the business hierarchy of needs, that they had some sales issues and prospect attractions and so forth. But, also, said, “We’ve been in business for 13 years. We’re one of the most established providers in this area. We’re beyond sales issues. We’re really about impact and legacy of being of service to our community.” And he tried to continue the focus there but the business kept on kind of getting stalled in its growth. Well, finally, he said, “You know what, maybe it is a sales issue.” And he went back to the community they were serving and how they were serving them. And by getting back to the base, all of a sudden, that opened up sales and it allowed them to build up the rest of the structure.

Picture this like building an actual structure building that has five levels. If you want to build a tall building with a big top and you want to have a huge impact, you can’t have a little needlepoint structure below it. It’ll collapse on that. It won’t be strong enough It’s like a pyramid. You must have a foundation that’s adequate and substantial to support the level above it. And that level must be adequate to support the next. If, at any time, we want to grow up stronger at a higher level, we need to make sure the foundation is appropriate to support it. So, this is not a ladder. You don’t just climb up and aspire to be at the top. You cycle through, constantly strengthening the base and the lower levels to support the higher levels.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so I’m hearing that. I guess I’m just imagining an organization in which it’s sort of like, “Okay, we got 60 problems/opportunities. They’re sprinkled across all of these dimensions, and some of them fall into sales.” So, I think it’s a good argument that you got to handle that before to really kind of flourish and have that foundation. I guess I’m thinking, in a way, you know, hey, sales, everything could always be better. So, how do you go about maybe doing the data collection or the benchmarking to say, “Oh, I thought our sales were fine. Oh, but maybe they’re not. I thought our profits were fine. Oh, but maybe they’re not”? Because I think they could always be better. So, what do you think of that?

Mike Michalowicz
Yeah, everything could always be better, but it can only be better in relation. So, the simple question, and there is no specific number I can share, but what I can say is that, “Is the base adequate to support enough and substantial elements to the next level? Is sales strong enough to support our target and goal and profit?” And a lot of this is just communication.

I’m surprised at how many divisions. We have some public companies that implemented the business hierarchy of needs, and these divisions are taking on without consideration of the overall business hierarchy of needs. So, there’s a greater business hierarchy, and then within each division becomes its own little hierarchy so we got to work in relation to that. So, what’s the major corporate goal and need specifically?

Then we look back and we say, “In our division or in our field of responsibility, do I have adequate sales to support the profit expectation for me? And if so, then I actually have a profit issue if profit isn’t there. It’s not a sales issue.” Sadly, I see businesses go, “You know, we just need to sell more. We’re going to sell our way out of this.” It’s the most common thing I see from business leaders, and it’s one of the biggest mistakes because sales do not translate to profit. I see businesses sell unprofitable items. And while their sales dollars go up, the profit margins are getting thinner and thinner, and the business is actually struggling more. So, it’s all in relation.

We need clarity from the next one who we’re connected to, the next leader that we’re working with, and, “What are the proper expectations to drive your needs? What are the sales expectations? What degree of efficiency? How many resources can we use to get this stuff done? And what are the turnaround times?” Those are questions we have to have clarity on. In that way, we’re speaking up the chain all the way to the leader or leaders of our organization to understand the needs and they drive them back down. So, it works in relation and it works through communication.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so then it sounds like there’s expectation setting and communicating that’s going forward.

Mike Michalowicz
Oh, yeah, of course, right? It’s funny, I say of course and yet it doesn’t happen. I’m shocked at how many businesses have arbitrary goals.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s what I’m getting at is the arbitrariness. Like, how do we un-arbitrary them and make them based on something real?

Mike Michalowicz
Yeah. And the similar question is, “Why and how is this serviced?” I worked for a Fortune 500 after they got acquired, and I was blown away by the lack of communication at least around goal-setting. There’s a lot of communication around red tape but there was not a lot of communication around goal-setting. And so, when I was told, “Hey, Mike, your department has to do X.” I said, “Why?” And they’re like, “Because that’s what we told you.” I’m like, “But what’s the reasoning behind it?” And that started an understanding of the importance of how it serves the company in a greater whole.

Now, in context, it actually empowered me in that division. I only worked there for a year before I went back out and started my own business, but then it gave me context of why I need to achieve, what I need to achieve. That’s a very empowering thing, so get the context.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that so much because when you ask why, they’re like, “What?” It’s like, “No one’s ever really asked me that before, Mike. I just got accustomed to telling people what they need to do, and then they try to do it.”

Mike Michalowicz
They just do it. Yeah, it was shocking. And part of it, too, I think was just history, “That’s what we always do. We just pick 10% higher.” “Well, why not pick 50% higher?” “Well, because we never do that.” So, that context. And it isn’t to be challenging in the confrontational sense. It’s we’re challenging in seeking clarity. And just because, in that case, the leader of our department wasn’t telling me that, didn’t mean it was right to ignore that, that I had a responsibility to step up and ask, which made us both better leaders, I think, as a result.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that’s cool. So, then let’s zoom into the professional who’s somewhere in the middle of things, and they then communicated a target, “We need to reduce the manufacturing waste rate by 10% or the conversion rate of clients needs to be increased by 10%,” it’s like something. And maybe have a good conversation about, “Well, why?” “Oh, I see how that makes sense, interrelates and fits with the other dimensions.” How do you go about making that happen in terms of determining what to fix next within a narrower scope of your responsibilities?

Mike Michalowicz
Yeah, so this is where we present the hierarchy of needs. So, you talked about conversion, you talked about manufacturing, the factor of efficiency.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, so two separate kinds of…

Mike Michalowicz
Two separate things. One was an order level; one was a sales level. So, what we do is we go back to our department leads and say, “Listen, I’ve been given direction in this hierarchy, and there’s two different demands.” The default is we always go to the base. But do we understand, is that a necessity? Because the leader can be giving you arbitrary goals. Do we have adequate sales to, first, drive that efficiency and will have a greater impact on our business? Or do need the sales in place first in order to make the investment in building the efficiency? So, we have to figure out the sequence.

Pete Mockaitis
Right. Like, you might be too small to make investing in the super cool technology or robot, but what?

Mike Michalowicz
Oh, my God. I see companies that have so much potential efficiency but so low flow because it becomes actually less efficient. I worked with a major playset manufacturer, one of the bigger ones there, over $100 million in revenue, and what’s so fascinating is they had this massive equipment, and the complexity in setting it up was so time-consuming. Now, they had the demand. Once that system was set, it was just ring out process to process, so the gain was in more volume. But if they just placed one playset through that, the 16 hours of setting up, someone could hand-paint three playsets on their own. It’d be faster, actually, to do hand painting. So, this stuff always works in relation.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s great perspective there. Okay. Well, then I’d love to hear, in terms of sort of what’s the alternative, like if we’re not thinking in this way, I guess it’s not arbitrary and you’re not motivated and inspired because you’re not connected to the why. You could misallocate your resources and attention on things that don’t really matter. Could you sort of share with us kind of what does life look like when you’re doing this versus not doing this? And what are some of the best and worst practices to making sure you’re doing this well?

Mike Michalowicz
So, with the business hierarchy of needs and the fix this next process, the first thing we always talk about is what’s called lifestyle congruence. It is the base of motivation, “How does this serve you? If you do something, how does it serve you?” And this is how all humanity is wired. So, there’s more than just the organizational needs. It’s how the organizational needs translate to the service of you? Does it give you an opportunity to climb the corporate ladder? Does it give you actually more time, more free time? What objectives are you serving on your own? So, it’s that interpersonal relationship.

Without the hierarchy of needs, without the understanding, I’ve seen business professionals get into a very much an action-reaction mode, meaning there’s some trigger, a request, a demand, that incessant string of email coming in, and we just put out fire after fire after fire. Something comes in, we react to it, but there’s no contemplation.

So, the business hierarchy of needs, the differentiator is an action, a trigger that happens, but now there’s contemplation between the action-reaction. There’s an intentional pregnant pause to say, “How is this of service to the organization? How is this congruent with what I’m trying to set as my own objectives?” And now we move much more deliberately.

The business hierarchy of needs helps us focus on the next impactful thing to do. Without it, people focus on the next apparent thing, and there’s a constant stream of apparent issues and so it becomes a randomization. Those divisions, those leaders often make a few steps forward, and a few steps back, and a few steps forward. The ones who are deliberately identifying the most impactful thing and act on it are much more effective in moving forward consistently, and growing to their objectives.

Pete Mockaitis
Right on. Well, can you walk us through maybe a couple more examples of there’s someone, and they are…we got a set of responsibilities for a division, and then they are doing some real smart prioritization of fixing the right thing next.

Mike Michalowicz
Yeah, so I was working with a corporation which I want to leave nameless, but since the COVID incident, they’ve lost a massive volume of customers. Actually, the experience, it’s more massive churn. They’re losing customers but they’re gaining. And I may or may not have said to the board of this company, maybe I just gave it away there, I said to the board of this company, and we had an impromptu discussion. The company was working on the impact level.

Now, by all means, you don’t ignore sales. They had sustainable sales and it continues to grow on its own but where the concentrated effort need to be was on impact of being great and great service. All of a sudden, with this shift and this drop in clients, because these clients were not business or a B2B business, and these other clients coming in, now all attention went to sales. The leadership team redirected their focus and said, “How do we cater to this new market? How do we serve these customers that are leaving us almost at a whim because of fear? How do we protect them and retain the core function?” They provided very necessary function for these businesses. Without them, they may go out of business. You need this function. And then, “How do we re-address it?”

So, very quickly on the dime, they saw an issue present itself just when this case broke, or they noticed the metrics, the empirical data of a drop of customers, and all leadership looked there and said, “We will achieve legacy and impact. We have been satisfying that but, for now, we can’t stop building that third and fourth floor of the building. We got to get back in the basement because we have a crack in the foundation,” and leadership went down there, they responded very rapidly as a result. And the story will reveal itself over the next months, perhaps a year or two ahead, but their quick response and deliberate response has put a tourniquet on potential massive loss if they just said, “You know what, we’re going to just continue to focus at this level and not redirect our attention.”

And I think they would’ve been made aware of it because they always looked at the business hierarchy of needs and are asking, “Where do we need our attention now?” They’re responding quicker than if they weren’t considering that hierarchy.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’d love it if you can give us, are there any sort of shortcuts or really kind of quick questions or indicators or acid tests that might make you say, “Aha! I have a hunch that I need to focus my energies over here.”

Mike Michalowicz
Yes. So, quick indicator is if you’re taking on debt, if you have increasing demand on budgets, and you don’t have increasing sales, so if debt is increasing in excess of sales and profit, that’s a massive indicator that we actually have a profit issue, there’s a margin issue in the organization. One of the shortcut techniques that I love I see companies implementing right now is in repositioning. If an offering, if you are not buying an offering, to try to sell harder, particularly at the macroeconomics that’s occurring now, it’s not usually a right response. We’re using a technique called one step prior.

Here’s what it is. You look at your final offering. I’ll just use the restaurant because probably everyone on this call has experiences with a restaurant. When you go to a restaurant and you sit down, they deliver food to your table. That’s the end product. But if we look one step prior to that, well, what are they doing? They’re carrying the food to you, they’re delivering it. Well, that’s an offering in itself, the delivery of food, and some restaurants are responding that way. What happens one step prior to that? Well, there’s a preparation of food. A restaurant could make that an offering, make it a new product by recording the 10 most popular recipes and deliver that as a new product offering. What happens one step prior to that? Well, there’s the procurement of raw materials, the inventory, the meats and vegetables. Maybe they can sell that.

So, I see organizations reconsidering if they’re to stop in sales, or you some empirical data with a drop off, one option, too, is reconsider the packaging in the first place, and that’s a real simple shortcut to do that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. Well, tell me, Mike, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Mike Michalowicz
Yeah. So, the last thing I just want to mention is, well, there’s a resource for you, if I can share that, and there’s a process. So, I’ll do the process first, it’s called OMEN, it stands for Objective, Measurement, Evaluation frequency, and Nurture. Once we identify what to work on, you can use OMEN as a simple structure to measure and ensure the progress, the results you want.

Then there’s a resource that I’m encouraging people to use because it’s totally free and it’s a quick evaluation for your division, your business. It’s at FixThisNext.com. So, if you go to FixThisNext.com, you could go on a free evaluation. You can take a 5-minute, this is a series of questions, to really pinpoint what to work on next. And there’s no download. The results appear on the screen, and you can take action on it. So, it’s a good compass or guidance tool.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Thank you. Well, now, could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Mike Michalowicz
Oh, I have it above my desk at home, and I’m going to bring a big one and put it in our hallway here at our office, “Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken.” In my final assessment of business and life, the most successful people are the ones who are most joyous, it’s the ones who truly are simply themselves, and allow the business to be a platform to be more of themselves.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Mike Michalowicz
Right now, I’m studying quantum physics, and I’m studying this concept of [31:47] but basically that we’re in a box universe. Actually, that’s not even the right term but that all time has happened simultaneously. So, the past, the present, and the future has already all occurred. It’s all available. It’s time slicing effectively, and so it’s a mind wrap. I’ve been studying it intensely and really trying to wrap my head around it, and it’s changing our perspective of life itself.

Pete Mockaitis
Wow! Could you point us to a book, a resource, to get in that?

Mike Michalowicz
Yeah. Well, Stephen Hawking has some good resource around that. “Simple Answers to Big Questions” is a good starting point, and then the BBC has some really great basic teachings in some of these ethereal concepts.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite book in general?

Mike Michalowicz
Well, I say current one, it’s appealing to me, it’s called “100 Days of Rejection” by Jia Jiang, I think, is his last name. And it’s just this guy who studied the power of intentionally being rejected. It’s really a cool concept.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Mike Michalowicz
A favorite tool? We use a tool called Voxer here in our office for rapid communication. It’s a really cool way to batch communication and keep a record of communication. I think, particularly, in the virtualization of business that’s really being enforced now, you have to, that we need a new way to have still a semi-tactile experience and engage, and this has superseded voicemail or email. It’s just a better form of communication for us called Voxer.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I think my friend Lisa who’s also on the podcast, Lisa Cummings, loves Voxer. And how about a favorite habit, something that helps you be awesome?

Mike Michalowicz
Well, every morning, I exercise. And after that, I do a singing bowl. It’s a bowl that you hit and you can rub a stick on it, and it rings. And I use that for meditation or prayer time. It’s just a great way for me to put thoughts out into our world and universe, and it’s a great way to sense relief too.

Pete Mockaitis
So, you move the bowl and do you say anything or just think or…?

Mike Michalowicz
No. So, a singing bowl, it’s like a bowl, like a cereal bowl made of metal. You tap a stick on it and it makes a chime sound. And then, as you move the stick around, the vibrations continue so the chime actually gets louder and louder, and you can make it softer, and there’s ways to change directions on the chime. And the visualization I use, is it puts out sound waves or vibrations into the world, and so as I have my thoughts, and I put thoughts out for the goodness of humanity, of people, health, I can see it visually going out. So, it’s kind of a cool visualization tool and an audio tool.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a particular nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, and they quote it back to you often?

Mike Michalowicz
You know, one thing that’s been really powerful is “People speak the truth through their wallets, not their words.” And I’ve used that as an asset. It’s measure people by their action, particularly when we’re in a business. Are they willing to spend or not? Because if they’re saying, “We support this. We love it,” and they don’t spend, they don’t support it. They don’t love it.

Pete Mockaitis
I’ve lived that a few times.

Mike Michalowicz
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Mike Michalowicz
So, you can go to FixThisNext.com to do that evaluation. And if you want to learn more about my research of business and business operations, you can go to MikeMichalowicz.com. But here’s the deal, Pete, no one can spell Michalowicz so I have a shortcut. It’s Mike Motorbike, as in the motorcycle, it’s my nickname in high school, so I still own it. So, MikeMotorbike.com. And if you go there, all my research is available for free on blogs and podcasts. I also have my books there. I used to write for the Wall Street Journal, and it’s all for free at MikeMotorbike.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Mike Michalowicz
Yeah, listen, this is the time to step up. And the world kind of got punched all business leaders in the face right now, and it’s also asking you to turn up the heat because we need the economy to keep going. So, the call to action is really a call to arms. It’s time for us as business professionals to step up, step forward, and start kicking some ass.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Mike, thank you. This has been a lot of fun. I wish you all kinds of luck as you’re fixing things next.

Mike Michalowicz
Exactly. Thank you.

Apr 23
0

565: How to Get Out of a Rut and into Your Flow with Jonah Sachs

By | Podcasts | No Comments

 

 

Jonah Sachs says: "Stop thinking of yourself as an expert. Start thinking of yourself as an explorer."

Jonah Sachs discusses how a simple shift in the way we think helps us achieve more.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Why the experts are often the most unreliable
  2. How to make any task more exciting and engaging
  3. How to turn anxiety into fuel for creativity

About Jonah

Jonah Sachs is an author, speaker and viral marketing pioneer. Jonah helped to create some of the world’s first, and still most heralded, digital social change campaigns. As co-founder of Free Range Studios, his work on Amnesty International’s blood diamonds viral film was seen by 20 million people and was delivered to every member of congress, helping drive the passage of the Clean Diamond Act.

He later helped to create “The Story of Stuff,” which, viewed by over 60 million people, marked a turning point in the fight to educate the public about the environmental and social impact of consumer goods. Jonah’s work and opinions have been featured in The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, FOX News, Sundance Film Festival, NPR. Sachs also pens a column for Fast Company, which named him one of today’s 50 most influential social innovators.

Resources mentioned in the show:

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Jonah Sachs Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Jonah, thanks for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Jonah Sachs
Hey, thanks for having me, Pete. It’s great to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m really excited to dig into your wisdom. And you’ve got an interesting turn of a phrase – unsafe thinking. What does this mean?

Jonah Sachs
It’s just the idea that if the world is changing around us, our careers are changing around us, business is changing, that what once was safe, relying on what we once knew, what we’ve always done, what’s worked for us so far, is actually incredibly dangerous, that if the world changes we need to change with it. And so, trying to help people get out of that sense that they need to seek safety and really jump in in a smart way to unsafe thinking, which is about kind of breaking all your own rules.

Pete Mockaitis
Intriguing. Well, so that’s a fun phrase there because unsafe, we think, “Hey, safety is important. We don’t want to do anything that’s not safe.” But here you are advocating, “Unsafe thinking is what’s up.”

Jonah Sachs
Yeah, definitely. I’ve just had my own personal experience of running a business for 15 years that eventually I did sell. But going through this process of being on the wild cutting edge of viral video in the early 2000s, and then getting into that place that so many businesses get once they reach a certain level of success that so many people get to, which is you’re just trying to recreate what you did before. But the internet changes so fast, and every industry changes so fast these days, that that falling back on what you know what you know is just deadly. And it became deadly for my business. And so, I kind of took this quest to learn how to break through and to teach myself new ways to think.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And so, can you share, specifically, you say it became deadly, how did that unfold?

Jonah Sachs
Yeah. So, I started this company called Free Range Studios when I was 22 years old with my best friend from high school, and we had no idea what we were doing basically. We were doing social change, advertising, and somebody once asked us, “Can you make an internet video?” We’d never seen an internet video before back in 2000 but we figured we’d give it a try. And I think that kind of beginner’s luck, that kind of just joy of doing what we love to do, really helped us break into an industry or start an industry in a way. We were getting 20, 40, 50 million views on some of these socially-conscious activism videos.

And then, as time went on, and we tried, more and more people were coming to us, saying, “Can you reproduce that video you make? Can you make me something like that?” We had 35 employees, we were trying to churn it out kind of like a factory. And what I was noticing first was, “Look, we need a lot more structure here. We need a lot more rules. We need a lot more ways of getting people to just do what we know works.” And the more rules I put in place and the more management consultants I worked with, the less fun everything became, and the less excitement there was in the work, and, frankly, the less creative the work was.

And I kept thinking, “All right. Well, how do I put better rules in place? Or how do I discipline people more to get them to just be creative?” And I realized at some moment when people started quitting, when I just looked at our work and I was like, “Yeah, this looks like the same stuff we were doing five years ago,” that all those rules and processes were actually getting in the way of creative breakthrough. And I didn’t know how to get out of it. It was actually a really difficult life moment for me. Really depressing and I doubted myself.

And so, I started reading neurobiology texts, social sciences, and asking how people that I really admired how they were able to break out of these ruts. And I found that almost everybody who was successful got to this point at some point, what makes them continue to be successful is they found a way to break out of it, and that’s what I was really after when I was doing the research for this book.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, speaking of research, I’d love it if you could share some of the most hard-hitting studies and numbers associated with the benefits of stepping out and doing some more unsafe thinking.

Jonah Sachs
Yeah, certainly. So, one of my favorites is they did a bunch of research on expertise, and they did kind of a broad study of about 20,000 expert predictions, and they found that the most vaunted experts over 10 years in each of their fields in business, in politics, in invention in business, were worse than dart-throwing monkeys at predicting what was going to happen in the future. So, they were worse than random chance at making predictions. And how could that be?

Well, they went a level deeper and they found that the more you were quoted on TV, the more social currency you had, the more likely you were to actually be even more wrong than your average expert. So, experts tend to be less accurate in making predictions than someone who’s just a complete beginner in many fields when the world is changing quickly around them. Not only that, the worst thing you can do is believe yourself to be an expert.

Once you believe you’re an expert, then you get even more stupid. So, in a couple of controlled studies, they showed that people who first said that they knew a lot about financial terms, primed themselves to then say that they knew what the meaning of fake financial terms were. So, they would ask them a bunch of terms, and say, “Are you familiar with all these terms?” And some of them were completely fake. The people who claimed that they knew more were the ones who were fooling themselves into believing and too proud to say, “Oh, I’ve never heard of that.”

So, basically, as we gain expertise, we gain also the ability to have impact in our field, and so we start to move up this curve of impact and quality. But at a certain point, most people start to go back down. It’s kind of an inverted U. And you get to the top of that U the minute you believe that you’ve become an expert.

And so, what I learned from that is that you have to break out of that sense that you know what you’re doing. You have to break out of that sense of clinging to what you bring to the table, what maybe people are paying you for, they’re looking for expertise so they’re paying you to have the answers. Really, in a world that’s changing quickly, you have to have more questions. And so, I looked for research on how that actually works. How do you actually break yourself out of that expert’s trap? And there’s a couple of things that do that.

One is kind of humiliating yourself, getting used to the idea of acting and showing yourself to be a beginner and to be an explorer rather than an expert. I tell the story of a CEO of a 56,000-person company. The company was going kind of down the tube when he was brought in. He knew he didn’t have the answers for it. He brought together 5,000 of his employees in an arena, and this is in India where kind of CEOs are known to be sort of emperors in a way or thought to be. And instead of giving his presentation, he started doing this Bollywood dance.

And he was kind of a heavy middle-aged guy, he’s sweating profusely, he’s a terrible dancer, and the arena is kind of rocking it but no one is dancing with him, and by the end, everyone is kind of laughing and wondering what’s going on, and he kind of just sits down and he starts to give the presentation. And he basically said, from that moment, he was able to pull himself down off that pedestal. He was able to admit that he didn’t have all the answers. He was actually asked by the employees then to go give the same presentation to everyone in the company.

So, when you do whatever you have to, to break that sense that you stand above, you start to break that expert’s trap. Other things you can do is engaging in fields where you know nothing. We’re so specialized these days in our work, and we’re so desiring to kind of keep going where we know. If you break out and start to…I think singing lessons is something I’m terrible at, but I do it because I begin to get more creative by stepping into a field in which I have no expertise. People who live abroad for six months are shown to be more creative than people who haven’t had those experiences.

So, the whole take away from that piece of research, which I really love, was stop thinking of yourself as an expert. Start thinking of yourself as an explorer. And the weird thing about it is that when you do that, you will find that people who follow you will not have less confidence in you. There’s a lot of studies now that show that people prefer leaders who are humble and self-effacing to those who act like they have all the answers.

Pete Mockaitis
Boy, there’s so much good stuff in there, and that really resonates in terms of like experts and predictions. Like, I can’t help but shake my head when I’m reading financial predictions stuff, it’s just like, “Well, you sound smart because you’re using all the words, and you have a theory, and it kind of adds up that, okay, that theory might indeed result in those financial results.” But, in practice, it’s like Back to the Future or something. It’s like if you could really predict like that, you would just be crazy rich and it’s unrealistic.

Jonah Sachs
That is true. That is true.

Pete Mockaitis
So, okay. Well, so then that’s really interesting.

Jonah Sachs
Those people wouldn’t have to be writing books.

Pete Mockaitis
Right. Right.
Well, so that’s great in terms of, especially, when you think you’re the expert then you’re in even more trouble because you’re not, I guess, seeking the dis-confirmatory – is that a word? The evidence that goes against the expertise…

Jonah Sachs
Yup, dis-confirmatory. Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
…that’s there.

Jonah Sachs
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, then let’s get into it in terms of how should we go about building in the practices so we’re engaging in unsafe thinking and reaching wise decisions as frequently as possible?

Jonah Sachs
Yeah. Well, the book is a long, long exploration of how we do that with kind of six or seven main areas we can do it in. And I can jump to a couple more of the ways that we start actually stepping into those practices. Before we do, I do want to also say that we live in a world now where this has also become this sort of negative feeling about experts in certain realms where I’m not arguing for the idea that, for instance, in the middle of this COVID crisis we shouldn’t listen to what doctors and scientists have to say.

We still, of course, live in a world where gaining information, education, understanding your environment is incredibly important. It’s just that even those doctors and experts perform better when they don’t hold themselves up to have all the answers, when they’re constantly in that curious mode. So, I’m not saying, “Just go listen to your uncle about what to do to treat a pandemic,” but I am saying that the more humble you are as an expert, the more flexible you’re going to be out in your environment.

But, yeah, let’s look at a couple other things that we can do to be more creative and to be more flexible in our thinking. One thing that I found that was just incredibly fascinating and really helped me break out of a few of my traps was this idea of attuning the level of challenge that you have to the level of competency you have. And that’s so often what gets us stuck. When we reach an impasse, and we want to fall back on what we’ve always known, and we find it’s not working, that’s often because our skills are not perfectly tuned yet to the challenge that we’re taking on.

So, if you want to understand this, you look at kind of motivation, right? And there’s been a lot of work done on motivation, and you probably heard some of this stuff about intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. They used to think that people were only motivated by rewards like getting raises, making more money, status, all that kind of stuff. But then about 20 years ago, they started to really realize that there’s more deep motivations that people carry with them, that when you actually give them rewards at times, they start to be less motivated.

There are some interesting studies that show that young children who are asked to do art projects are more creative when you don’t offer them candy for who’s going to make the best piece of art. So, that’s called intrinsic motivation. But we often run out of intrinsic motivation when the going gets tough, and that’s when we go back to our stereotypical thinking, and that’s when we begin to really fail.

So, where do you draw that motivation from? Well, usually we think of intrinsic motivation coming from things like, “Oh, I have a passion for the work that I’m doing,” or, “Oh, I’m an artist,” or, “I’m an inventor,” and yet we all have so many tasks we have to go through that are not necessarily intrinsically motivating. Any piece of building a career is going to be of varying degrees of excitement. We have to do them all well to make our careers work.

So, how do we keep that motivation and that creativity up? Well, that’s where this theory called flow theory really becomes important. This researcher named Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, you’ll never be able to spell it, I had to train myself to say it, but he was a rock climber, and he began to ask himself this question, which was, “Why do I go out there, nearly break my bones, rip up my fingertips, kind of give up all my money in time so that I can try to get to the top of a mountain from which I’m just going to come right back down? Where’s the motivation coming from in that?”

And he began to form an early theory, which is now one of the best-tested creativity theories, which is that people, when given a challenge that’s just at the edge of their skills, will tune in and almost obsessively work on that problem. It’s why people play so many video games because the video game is always just a little bit better than you are, and it never gets too far ahead, and it never comes too far behind.

So, when you find yourself in a situation where your motivation is beginning to flag, you’re probably out of flow. You’ll know you’re in flow because you’re working for 12 hours and you hardly notice it, or you just can’t wait to get back to that project. You know you’re out of flow when you’re procrastinating, you’re putting it off, and you’re phoning it in. So, what do you do? It’s not really the task itself. It really has to do with whether your skills are just being pressed and just at the lower level of the challenge itself.

And so, what I ask people to do, and which I find to be extremely effective, is, “Look at that thing that you’ve been trying to do, look at that thing you’re procrastinating, either it’s not challenging enough for you, therefore, you’re getting bored by it and becoming rote. So, how could you change the way that you do it so that you gamify it, in a sense, you add challenge to it? Or, on the other hand, it might be a little too far beyond your skillset to do it well. In which case, even when you’re in a hurry, it really makes sense to step back and brush up those skills.” Again, that’s where we go to breaking that ego of the expert, and saying, “I got to learn something here.”

So, the next time that you’re finding yourself flagging and losing motivation, I would really try to chart where your skills are, where are challenges, and where they’re departing. If you’re bored, you know it’s not challenging enough. And if you’re overwhelmed and exhausted, you know it’s too challenging. And in the book, I just give lots of ways for companies to be organized that way, for people to break up tasks into different phases to keep that flow going. So, another tip, that’s what really gets that creative brain going. When you get in flow, you really do better work.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Jonah, I would love it if we could really kind of go through a number of levers or tweaks to make something a bit more or a bit less challenging because I don’t have a whole lot of ideas here. Hey, there’s some humble self-effacing action there.

Jonah Sachs
Sure.

Pete Mockaitis
I guess, in practice…

Jonah Sachs
I thought you were the expert here.

Pete Mockaitis
So, I guess if I want to make it more challenging, sometimes I’ll set a timer and see if I can do it faster within a timeline, or I might try to see if I could do a whole batch of them, like, “Have you ever done three in a row?” to turn that into some more challenge. And if it’s too challenging, sometimes I’ll just try to split it into just the tiniest increments, like, “Step one, open up the email where they ask me to do that thing. Step two, list out each deliverable that they want in that email. Step three, open a blank Excel spreadsheet…”

Jonah Sachs
Right.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, it really does help in terms of, “Oh, I’ve been avoiding it. This is hard. I don’t know where to start.” It’s like, “Okay. Well, you do know where to start. It starts by opening up the email.” So, that’s really all I got in terms of tricks to make something easier or harder. What else do you recommend?

Jonah Sachs
Yeah, I’ve got a few of those, of these kinds of tips. And what you’re talking about, in some ways, are these fairly rote tasks, which are very important actually to doing them well. The high level of competency in rote tasks is actually key to creativity. When you’re not doing those things well, you’re acting like the mad professor who’s super creative but not very competent, you’re actually putting a lot more stress on your brain and decreasing your creative abilities.

But I do want to differentiate between really creative tasks and tasks that you just kind of have to slog through. So, talk a little bit about the tasks that you just want to slog through. I looked at a lot of research about how bad, and you’ve probably heard about this, how bad we are at multitasking, and how much stress it puts in our brain to do a number of things at once. So, you might be doing something like, “All right, I’ve got this slog thing, it takes me an hour and a half to update my CRM, or to send out this email, or both.” Take a screencast of what you’re doing for about 10 minutes, see how many times you’re switching apps, see how many times you’re actually working, or checking your email, or picking up your phone, actually look at what you’re doing.

We live in a world where usually we’re doing two or three things at once. And things that seem really hard and take a long time, actually take very short if you shut out all outside distractions. It’s actually part of staying in flow is shutting out distractions. The novelist Jonathan Franzen, he apparently used to put hot glue into his ethernet port, back in the day when you needed a wired connection, and worked out of a windowless non-airconditioned office where no sound could get in. He basically shut out all outside, and he said it was the only way he could work.

And I think it’s really interesting because so few of us do work that way. So, one, shut out the distraction that is probably causing things to take twice or three times as long as you thought they were. It is not easy but sometimes when we see how hard it is, we realize how addicted we are to distractions. So, that’s one of them.

Another one is to break up, just like you’re saying, break things down into tasks, some things, smaller tasks. The creative side of your tasks require intrinsic motivation, and you don’t really need to get rewarded for that. You kind of want to isolate the parts of the task that you really enjoy, and, like I say, if there are parts of the creative side, if you need more inspiration or training, give yourself that time because sometimes we need to up that ability.

But other things that have been shown to really work are to think about a problem very directly and hard for about 15 to 20 minutes, make sure you have all the parameters of the problem, and then go for a walk, take a shower, take a nap, step away from it. It’s usually the background processing in your mind that will come up with original ideas when you’ve ran out of other ideas, because what happens in that first 15-20 minutes, the most obvious solutions come forth, and then it’s when you let your mind rest that new ideas. So, for the more creative ideas and more creative tasks, I recommend this sort of on again, off again burst of creativity and focus, and then open-minded for solution-searching.

And then, finally, because, again, we can go on all day just about this one piece of it, but there’s a lot of research to suggest that some tasks really do require external motivators. And so, sometimes you have to treat yourself like a parent if you’re really procrastinating, and say, “I’m going to give you that cookie, or I’m going to let you watch that TV, or I’m going to give you that reward, if you do these three things,” and set small goals for yourself, and give yourself small rewards.

A lot of people report like having that little treat at the end is a strong signal to their brain and a strong dopamine hit that makes the task not as hard as it once seemed. So, these are all kinds of ways essentially of managing energy through the long task of doing things that are hard as opposed to just reverting to going back and doing the things that are easy.

I can tell you that if your main mode of operation is to always work on the things that are easy for you, you are basically atrophying at your desk, and won’t be long until you’re way underperforming to your potential.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, certainly and that really connects there in terms of it can feel unsafe to do the thing that’s really hard and you’re not quite sure you could do, but it’s so essential to do that. I want to follow up on that point you made, that certain tasks really can benefit from treating yourself like a child and there’s going to be a treat if you do this. What are the sorts of tasks that seem to benefit most from that reward-treat-carrot action?

Jonah Sachs
Yeah, those tend to be the more rote, less creative, left brain type of tasks. So, you have to do things very precisely, you know how to do them, they’re difficult only in that they take attention and they take diligence. Those are things that tend to do better. And if you’re working with employees too, those are the kinds of things you want to give people extrinsic motivations to do, “Clean something thoroughly,” whether that’s a bathroom or a database, “Make sure that we have received all our receipts and accounted for them.” Those are the kinds of things that you want to give external motivation for because there’s really not that much excitement from a job well-done. You’re just expected to do it well and you have to, but there’s no real intrinsic joy in doing it.

Something like, “Come up with a new slogan,” “Pick new colors,” “Come up with a creative solution to a problem that we’ve never solved before.” Those are all things you don’t need to give rewards for in that sense. You will want to celebrate people’s creativity, give them more open space, give yourself more open space, and try to dial back that pressure to do it quickly is always helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now, I want to talk about sort of the social dimension here of unsafe thinking. So, we talked about kind of managing yourself and your productivity and the challenges you take on, adjusting the difficulty. Now, it can be tricky and feel unsafe to challenge someone else’s viewpoint in a meeting to say something, in however you say it, to convey, “I disagree. I think that there’s an alternative which may serve us better,” can be quite intimidating and feel unsafe for people, maybe rightly, because there’s retribution and animosity, or maybe wrongly, it’s just a boogeyman. But, tell us, what are some of your best practices, pro tips, for engaging in unsafe thinking and articulating that with others?

Jonah Sachs
Oh, man, this one is really, really hard because so many workplaces are the sort of schizophrenic mixtures of both really wanting creative employees and really beating them down when they don’t fall in line with company flow. And so, let me just start by saying there’s this fascinating study that looked at teachers, asking them, “All right, first, rate all of your kids in your class from your most creative to your least creative.” So, they put them on a spectrum, obviously, without telling the kids.

Next, they said, “Who are your favorite students and who are your least favorite students?” And, across the board, without exception, less creative kids fell into the favorite student category, and more creative kids were in the troublesome category that teachers actually didn’t like. And when asked, “How important is it for you to teach creativity?” teachers said it was the number one most important thing that they wanted to do. So, this tells us exactly that, by fourth grade, we’re already getting these mixed messages, “Be creative and fall in line.”

So, let’s move that into the workplace, what’s happening in the workplace. Meetings are so often hated and so often deadly because there’s this thing called shared information bias, which tends to happen. It’s this deep psychological problem in groups that happens in a meeting. Okay, so 10 people come into a room, right? They’re having a meeting because it’s important for them to share information. They have to find out what they don’t know from the other people, that’s why they’re meeting, otherwise, people just work alone at their desks.

What happens usually is the leader of the group will set the tone, they’ll say what they know about the problem or about the situation, and that makes sense, and then asks for everybody’s input. Well, it turns out that what people value and report liking in meetings is saying what someone else has said before. And usually so the leader says what everybody already knows because the leader is always speaking, and then everybody feels a psychological pull to rephrasing or somehow agreeing with what the leader said. And, in fact, people tend to even forget what they wanted to say once this shared information bias starts to come up.

And so, what happens is everyone knows something, everyone knows A, B, and C when they enter, D, E, and F are held by a couple people in the meeting, everyone gets together, and everyone leaves still knowing A, B, and C, no one mentions D, E, and F, and the company is stupider for it. It doesn’t work. So, there’s all these things that need to happen for that to be changed. Some of those things need to happen at the level of the organization, some things can be done by individual contributors who don’t have the power.

Let’s talk real quick about the top level of the organization. Leaders should not speak first in meetings. They don’t need to give the context. Let somebody who doesn’t usually speak start the meeting with what they know. You will get information that you did not expect. And they find, often, that low-status individuals in an organization, for a number of reasons, have some of that hidden information that’s most needed because it’s not what everyone is talking about. It’s what’s being seen from the edges. And information from the edges is a key ingredient to being more creative in a group. So, that’s one.

Number two, you can teach in your organization a kind of respectful disobedience. They do this in the airline industry, they do this in the Navy, they actually role-play and practice for the co-pilot to say that they have a different opinion than the pilot. That turns out, because in the ‘70s and ‘80s when the pilot was kind of the king of the cockpit and no one wants to speak up to usually him, we had way more airline crashes. But when co-pilots, and even flight attendants, were specifically trained to be disobedient, to speak back to power, and say what they observe, airline crashes have plummeted, because one person simply can’t know everything that’s need to be known and they have biases and make mistakes.

So, in your organization, teaching what’s called intelligent disobedience, which means that you’re going to be totally loyal to the company, but you’re going to speak back when you know something is wrong is a huge plus. From the individual contributor level, what do you do in a group? One, to get over that problem of actually the amnesia that comes from shared information bias, I recommend writing down, before you get to the meeting, everything that you want to say. It’s hugely valuable. So, if you have the courage to speak up, this will help you not forget what actually your point of view was. And by the end of the meeting, if something hasn’t been said that you have written down that you still think is important, make sure it gets out there, and you will then be contributing something that was otherwise missing.

Second, just keep in mind that employees who engage in intelligent disobedience, those who kind of speak up and are willing to outwardly say they disagree, are considered more loyal and more effective by managers, this has been well-studied, than those who quietly disagree and pretend they do agree. So, basically, if you’re going along with the flow, but you’re not wholeheartedly agreeing, people actually recognize it and it’s seen as a sign of kind of subversion. If you’re willing to speak up, and then go along with decisions once the group has made them, being loyal to the larger group, you’re going to be seen as more creative and a more effective collaborator. So, that fear may be a little bit unfounded.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s interesting indeed. I’m putting myself in the leader’s shoes, yup, it’s preferable to have someone openly tell you they disagree than to grumble and quietly muddy the waters with their subversive, I think is a great word for that. At the same time, I guess there’s that teacher effect that you mentioned that the creative ones are more kind of inconvenient because they don’t fall in line, “The meeting is going to take longer if you have a different opinion that we need to cover as opposed to you just sort of nodding and agreeing or else.” But at the same time, that’s what the meeting needs to do, is surface this stuff that wouldn’t get surfaced otherwise. So, in a way, it seems like your leader has to have a little bit of awareness and virtue, I guess, in order for them to appreciate what’s happening there with that intelligent disobedience.

Jonah Sachs
Yeah. Well, first of all, if you’re a leader and you’re turning your hair out because your employees are not creative enough, it’s just important to internalize that message that if you are subtly or directly calling for agreement and for efficiency, that you are the problem, it’s probably not your employees. So, getting that, opening that space for disagreement is going to be the source of your creativity.

Yeah, there’s another kind of key leadership tool here, I think, but it’s also something that team members can help to build. And Google did a landmark study on it, I spoke with Steve Kerr, the coach of the Golden State Warriors, he kind of uses it as well, and it’s kind of a little bit counterintuitive when you think about unsafe thinking. It turns out the most unsafe workplaces, the ones that are the most creative and willing to think outside the box, are the ones that provide the most psychological safety to people within that group.

I know that sounds crazy but what I’m trying to say here is that if everyone feels a sense of belonging, if they feel that their job is protected, and they feel that they matter to the team, they are more likely to be able to go against the grain, to say the things that might sound crazy, to open up their mouth when they see things are going wrong. There are these great studies of you could judge a company’s creativity by setting up a prediction market. So, see how often people are agreeing with what the CEO says when you’re actually asking them in front of the CEO, “Do you agree?” But then have a side market where people bet on whether the outcomes or the choices are going to work or not, and you’re going to get the real opinion.

So, prediction market is actually a better way to know if people agree with you than just kind of asking them. But if you create a sense of psychological safety, you don’t need that kind of output. You get to say, “Look, in this arena of creativity, everybody is equal. We fight it out, we go crazy, we are willing to look at ideas. And when you fail, we don’t punish you. We actually reward smart risks rather than just success,” then you’ll find people are willing to start taking those chances.

Now, you don’t want absolute chaos, that’s why it’s very important for groups to be cohesive when they move out of that exploratory phase and into the execution phase. But in exploratory phases, take a look at, “Are you building psychological safety within your organization?” There are lots of tools for doing that. And, again, that’s how Steve Kerr, when he got to the Golden State Warriors, kind of unlocked all the creative potentials of that team to take them to, whatever, five NBA Championships in a row, was by first setting up psychological safety in the locker room so they could get more unsafe on the court, and he kind of walked me through that, and I tell that story in the book.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Jonah Sachs
I guess I’ll just say that one of the things that I found most fascinating has to do with the real psychological mechanisms, and this is just kind of one more tip that I think is helpful when you understand this. I came to understand something that I call the safe thinking cycle. So, what happens is the world change around us, and that creates a certain amount of anxiety. What we’re doing is no longer working. We sense it because we’ve stepped up into a new position, and we’re not quite able to perform in it yet, we need to learn more, or what we’re doing no longer works, or there’s a new competitor in the space, or anything like that. We get a signal of anxiety.

Now, we’re programmed by evolution to see anxiety as a threat to our bodies basically. Anxiety out in the African savannah would mean that there was an animal about to eat you. And in those cases, what happens naturally from anxiety is that our peripheral vision shuts down, our nonessential bodily functions begin to slow down, and we really fall back on what we know works. So, we take what’s called stereotypical actions.

So, anxiety will, first, lead to the sense of, “Okay, I got to do something differently.” But by the time you start thinking what to do differently, you’re programmed by evolution to fall back and do something expedient and safe, and then things get worse because you haven’t reacted to the stimulus, and the cycle just repeats and repeats and repeats. And so, that’s where most people find themselves. The more stressed out you are, the less likely you are to take new and creative actions.

The way to break this cycle is not to respond differently or to force yourself to respond differently. It’s actually to reframe what anxiety means. And this has been a really fascinating look, for me, into sort of a whole bunch of different both kind of biological science and psychological science. But people who effectively break this cycle are those who tell themselves that anxiety is not a signal of danger, but a signal that they’re on their creative edge.

So, if what you’re doing is moving away from situations that cause anxiety, you’re actually creating further and further anxiety. And there’s a lot of psychological research that shows the more we concentrate on avoiding a feeling, the more we’re going to have it. The more you move towards that anxiety and say, “Okay, that anxiety is a signal that I should move toward it not away,” that is where we can experience the anxiety, and then take new action in its face.

So, it was very counterintuitive to me, nobody likes that feeling of anxiety, but if you can take it as a signal that you’re in your creative zone, when you feel it, that can really reshape your relationship to the creative thinking cycle.

Pete Mockaitis
Boy, that’s really good, and I think we might characterize anxiety all the more broadly, not just the, “Oh, crap, something terrible is going to happen” sensation, but I guess maybe also like I think about just sort of learning and growth mindset stuff. It’s just sort of in terms of awkward or dread, like, “Ugh, I’m not any good at this. Oh, I feel stupid.” It’s like that whole family of unpleasant feelings you can associate to, “Oh, I’m at the edge of creativity, or of growth, or of breakthrough,” as opposed to, “Oh, this is a thing to retreat from.”

Jonah Sachs
Yeah, for sure. For sure. The things that are like worth doing but don’t make you anxious are the things that you have been doing for a really long time, probably for a decade. So, the first time you give a speech in public, you might feel terrified. Once you’ve given that talk 20 times, you don’t feel scared anymore. If all you’re doing is giving that same talk again and again and again, your days are kind of numbered.

So, it’s great to fall back on the things that we know when we know we can do well. I would say give yourself at least 15% to 25% of your time though doing things that you suck at, and that will make you just a much better, more flexible thinker.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now, could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jonah Sachs
I still love the bumper sticker, I don’t know who even said it, but, “Don’t believe everything you think,” always makes me smile, and I kind of take that as a motto for myself.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. And how about a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Jonah Sachs
I looked at a study that showed that people, when given a chance between feeling medium-level electric shocks and being bored, would usually, after about 10 minutes, choose the electric shocks. So, when they put four people into a white plain room, and said, “You can have the electric shock and leave, or you can stay for another 10 minutes,” people mostly took the electric shock.

And just amazing to me, I think probably a hundred years ago, 50 years ago, maybe even 25 years ago, we were pretty good at sitting with ourselves and sitting with our own feelings and ideas. The fact that we’re at a place where most of us would rather be in pain than quiet is definitely a sign that there’s a lot of white space, a lot of opportunities for those who could be a little bit more mindful and take their time through processes, and be in that zone where creativity arises, which is in that quiet zone.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite book?

Jonah Sachs
Well, I’m reading right now a book called Station Eleven. It’s a post-pandemic science fiction book about a future in post-pandemic. And sitting through a pandemic right now, I’m kind of enjoying its beauty and its quiet, looking at what the world sometimes becomes.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something that helps you be awesome at your job?

Jonah Sachs
I have been really appreciating using Asana lately. It’s a fantastic product and helps me organize the millions of tasks that I try to keep. And I’ve tried many, many different tools, and have really struggled to use one again and again. I’m on kind of month 18 now with it and I find it’s really sticking, so that’s my tool.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite habit?

Jonah Sachs
I think I mentioned the one that I’m most excited about, which is doing things that I’m bad at and staying out of my comfort zone, so continuing to press, although I’m not improving as fast as I like, continuing to press on my singing is my latest habit that I’m trying to stay in.

Pete Mockaitis
And, now, how about a favorite nugget, something that you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, and they quote it back to you often?

Jonah Sachs
I find that the thing that most gets quoted back to me from my work, actually, comes from my first book Winning the Story Wars, maybe it’s because it’s been out for so long. But I kind of had three key tips for how to communicate and how to build your own personal brand and tell stories. And that was be interesting, tell the truth, and live the truth, and that gets repeated back to me as a sort of three pillars in life that are always worth following.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jonah Sachs
JonahSachs.com.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jonah Sachs
Yeah, I would just say it all really comes down to move towards the things that scare you, get out of your comfort zone, and if you’ve been saying that you’re going to do things differently, start doing something different today.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Jonah, this has been a treat. Thank you and keep on rocking.

Jonah Sachs
All right. Great talking.

Apr 20
0

564: Tapping the Motivational Forces of the World’s Most Successful People with Marco Greenberg

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Marco Greenberg says: "Some of the brightest people... see their professional life as an adventure rather than just a job."

Marco Greenberg shares how primal drives can be the key to unlocking your motivation and potential at work.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Why the world’s most successful people are “primitive”
  2. How to tap into your primal drive using the ROAMING framework
  3. How to weaponize your insecurities

About Marco:

Marco Greenberg has spearheaded marketing communications and public affairs campaigns for an array of Fortune 500 corporations, healthcare organizations, and notable venture- and angel-backed startups, and has served as a senior advisor to foreign governments, democratic movements, and NGOs. Previously a managing director at global PR giant Burson-Marsteller, he sees his role as a creative catalyst for breakthrough communications. An in-demand speaker and facilitator, he has written opinion pieces for a range of publications, including Business Insider, Entrepreneur, NY Daily News, Tablet Magazine, WeWork’s Creator.

He holds a BA from UCLA and an MA from Columbia University’s School of International and Public Affairs, and taught as an adjunct professor of Innovations in Marketing at NYU and entrepreneurship and PR at Fordham University. He splits his time with his wife and three grown children between the upper west side of Manhattan and Great Barrington, Massachusetts.

Items Mentioned in the Show

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Marco Greenberg Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Marco, thanks so much for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Marco Greenberg
Hey, terrific to be on your podcast, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, before we hit record, I learned that we shared a pretty cool connection, and that’s Mr. Hugh O’Brian with his HOBY, Hugh O’Brian Youth Leadership Organization, and a client of yours. I know he’s generous and loving and also cantankerous and, well, he will be missed in this world. So, could you tell us a noteworthy Hugh story to kick us off?

Marco Greenberg
I’d be happy to. I was introduced to Hugh O’Brian by, literally, the most legendary figure in the history of public relations, Harold Burson, who, sadly, passed away a couple of months ago just shy of his 99th birthday. And Harold called me into his office, and he said, “Look, I have a really important client to introduce you to who I love, but I want to give you a little bit of warning about Hugh O’Brian. He can be incredibly intense, so much so that we’ve had other people running in the account who ran for the hills or started crying because they couldn’t deal with him. He is absolutely messianic about what he wants to accomplish. He will act as if you have no other clients. But he’s someone that makes a difference. He’s someone that makes an impact. I think you’ll be great to run the account.”

And, sure enough, I was the young 20-something account executive on the Hugh O’Brian Foundation account running the gala, the awards, etc., and I learned a tremendous amount from him. And the fact of the matter is, and I hadn’t thought of this, Pete, until you made the connection between Hugh O’Brian in my own career. But, in my lexicon, Hugh is a classic primitive, meaning he marches to his own drum. He’s an iconoclast. He was non-conventional. He threw out the civilized rulebook. And, for some people, that didn’t jive well with their attitude of what you’re supposed to do in the workplace. But for other people it was actually key to his success. It was key to his ability to move the ball forward like nobody else.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, that is good. And, boy, I’ve got a lot of these Hugh memories coming back. I’ve learned a ton from him. And I remember he once shared with us that…so, he was an actor, for those who don’t know. Hugh O’Brian played Wyatt Earp back in the day on a TV series was his big role, and he started this great organization that kind of got me started in this leadership development world. But I remember he said that Gregory Peck left him a voicemail, another famous actor from back in the day who my mom loves, and he didn’t get around to returning the call before Gregory passed away. And I’ve thought about that many, many times in terms of like, don’t be too busy to reach out to your people, and it’s a good reminder. But, anywho.

the human touch doesn’t go out of style. And I think in this world of AI, and big data, and globalization, and outsourcing, and all the trends that we see, I would argue that human factor is more important than anything.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear you and I’m with you. So, let’s dig into the topic du jour there. We had a little Hugh time. Let’s see, we’re talking about, so you got this book here, “Primitive: Tapping the Primal Drive that Powers the World’s Most Successful People,” so it sounds helpful. Tell us, what is that primal drive? First of all, what is that thing?

Marco Greenberg
Right. Well, there are a lot of people today that are described as disruptors, mavericks, rebels, non-traditional hires. There are all kinds of different adjectives that are thrown out there. But I think when you get down to it, when you do a reality check, when you do a gut check, it’s really about, “What is that primal drive in our core? What are the instinctive, inborn, natural traits that oftentimes society says, ‘You shouldn’t do that. You must not do that’?” But if we honor what’s primal, and obviously what’s primal can often be childlike, right? And that can be a loaded attribute.

But I found in the people that I’ve worked with who have risen to the top, whether they are the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, whether they are the founders of tech unicorns, whether they are the executive directors of NGOs, whether they are actually secretaries of state, and I’d be happy to share a few stories of anecdotes that I had with two secretaries of state that were very instructive for me in my career. I think a lot of the time, you find that they are honoring their primal instincts, that which comes naturally, that which is organic, rather than trying to bury it like most people are taught to do. Most people think, “Well, that’s not appropriate. I’ve got to cross my Ts and dot my I’s. I should follow the more conventional path.” But what I’ve discovered is the most successful people out there are those that, in the words of a famous book, take the road less traveled.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, that’s an interesting theory. So, then what is the primal drive? I mean, so they do things differently, they march to the beat of their own drum, and they aren’t afraid to kind of shuck or disregard certain civilized norms as necessary. And so then, kind of what’s kind of getting them fired up and in motion?

Marco Greenberg
There are a lot of dynamics going on with these primitive characters. Let’s take an uber primitive in my book, someone like Elon Musk. And when you look at Elon Musk, he’s not someone that plays by the conventional rules, right?
And, originally, my book was supposed to be on marketing and how do you get it out there. And, thankfully, I have a more primitive agent, and I’ll explain why, meaning a literary agent, who said, “You know, marketing books are a dime a dozen. Why do you want to do that? Why don’t you do something more unique?” And he asked me, “What separates the most successful people that you worked with, and currently work with, and in the past worked with, and want to work with?” And the first answer that I had is, “They’re friggin’ nuts. They’re crazy.” They are out there. They are eccentric. They throw out the rulebook as we said. Sometimes they’re inappropriate, not in an offensive or illegal way, but just doing things in a bizarre, off-beat, free spirit kind of way.

So, if we go back to Elon Musk, he’s certainly nuts, right? And when I say nuts, I mean crazy in a good way, in a positive way. And that same nut spirit allowed him to launch PayPal, allowed him to get into the space business when people said, “You have no business doing that. What do you know?” And he got into that. And look at Tesla, flying high as of the beginning of the year in a way that no one would’ve thought. So, I would argue that it’s not necessarily the conventional way of following, with all due respect, the Harvard Business School case study of how a CEO should act, but rather someone who writes his own script.

And I think with Elon Musk, he does that. And I’d be happy to explain how, and how listeners can also, in my words, make a couple primitive moves. In other words, even if you’re quite civilized, quite conventional, more in the lane, more in your own world, your own box, sometimes it’s important to get out of that comfort zone and make a primitive move, be a little more nuts, and I can go through different prescriptions on how to do that when it makes sense with you, Pete. But I wanted to throw that out as just a paradigm.

But whether it’s Elon Musk or Steve Jobs or Oprah Winfrey, there are many, many leaders that exhibit these kinds of extraordinary traits that we talk about in the book.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, they’re nuts and they’re unconventional. And so then, what is their primal drive? Like, what is their fuel source that gets them moving? It’s unique.

Marco Greenberg
I think it comes down to how they measure success. And, obviously, you can define success in a myriad of ways. But from the research that we’ve done in the book, from the over 60 interviews, from talking to neuropsychologists and others who, frankly, have expertise that I don’t, most of my expertise, as I’ve mentioned, is in the trenches, is in the weeds, I think the primal drive comes in four areas.

One is certainly they want to be well-compensated, right? That’s not a trivial thing. They want to be appreciated. And, for good or for bad, in our society, often that comes down to the almighty dollars they say, but I think it’s a lot more than that. I think it’s also about making an oversized impact in their own world and on the world at large. I think it’s retaining their sense of independence. These are not women and men who follow orders.

My dad was a classic primitive. He was a modern architect who died way before his time. But he was in the US Air Force Reserve between Korea and Vietnam. And he entered as a third-class private, and six years later, he left as a third-class private. And he said, “Make me a general or leave me a private, but I refuse to pass on silly orders.” So, we actually have that quote in the book and for good reason, because in my view, that kind of captures the spirit of why independence is everything. And you hear the term, and I hope I can use this on your podcast, Pete, “F you, money.” And that is another way of talking about a way to get independence.

But I think, on a primal level, it’s, A, that impact, B, that independence, and it’s also something that I’ve heard you talk about in past podcasts, and it’s something that other people in business, in my view, don’t discuss enough, and that’s the ability to have fun. I have a former client in Boston, his name is Mike Iacobucci, he has a great startup that’s now very mature, called Interactions. They do amazing, amazing work on the voice recognition side. Apple is one of their big clients. And he says to me, “You know, it’s now my, what, third, fourth startup, and I ask myself every day, ‘Am I having fun? Am I still having fun? If I’m having fun, I’m going to do it. If I’m not having fun, I’m not going to do it.’”

So, the primal drive certainly comes from being recognized, and often that’s from my point of view, but it also comes from, “Am I making an impact? Can I retain my sense of independence? And am I having fun?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so then, so we get there, well-compensated, making an oversized impact, have fun. What’s the other one?

Marco Greenberg
Maintain that sense of independence. It’s certainly about the independence but a lot more. And the good news is that you don’t necessarily have to be an uber primitive like Elon Musk to capture that kind of spirit in your work. You can tap into that. Hence, the subtitle of the book “Tapping the Primal Drive That Powers the World’s Most Successful People.”

Pete Mockaitis
And so then, I would love it if you could share a story or two, particularly professionals would be ideal, of those who, indeed, they were untapped into their primal drive, and then they did something that tapped it, and then the cool result they saw as a result.

Marco Greenberg
I’d love to. And speaking of love, I’m going to start with a former coworker and friend who actually goes by the name of Love. Love is his first name, and his full name is Love Whelchel, III. And I met Love when he was running talent development at Young and Rubicon, one of the big advertising agencies out there.

And what I realized about Love and his career, both before I met him and after we had stopped working together, was that he was a classic agnostic primitive. What I mean agnostic, not someone who specializes, not someone who is all about focus, but rather someone who jumps from field to field, job to job, a true renaissance man, renaissance figure, who makes that the essence of his DNA. So, Love started out working as a roadie for NWA. Remember the rap group?

Pete Mockaitis
Right.

Marco Greenberg
He went on to selling books for Deepak Chopra. He then got onto Madison Avenue where I met him. And we feature him in the book at a crucial crossroads in his own career when he got a conversation going with Sean Combs, none other than P. Diddy. And he met with P. Diddy on a Friday afternoon about taking over his head of HR and operations at Bad Boy Entertainment. And he’s going home, and he’s thinking about his conversation with Sean, and whether he should leave Y and R. And Sean calls him on the phone as he’s driving, and he says, “Love, I got to know if you’re taking the job.” And Love says, “Mr. Combs, we just met. I need time to think about it. I need time to process it.” He said, “Love, I’m not going to have a good weekend unless you tell me you’re taking the job.”

And in a heartbeat, his whole life went before him, and rather than being…

Pete Mockaitis
You can’t ruin P. Diddy’s weekend. You can’t have that.

Marco Greenberg
You can’t ruin P. Diddy’s weekend.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s just not acceptable.

Marco Greenberg
Exactly. And, Pete, what do you think Love said?

Pete Mockaitis
“Yes, I’ll do it.”

Marco Greenberg
He said, “Yes, I’ll do it.” And he did it for several years and helped take that company to a new level. And, FYI, he’s now at Vera Wang, working for another total primitive in the fashion world. So, here he goes from entertainment, to advertising, to fashion. And we have a great quote from Love in the book, he goes, when he gets a new assignment, he feels like he’s been dropped in the jungle with nothing but his loincloth, a pen knife, and has to fight his way out.

So, for me, that kind of captures the spirit of it. And, no, you do not have to be a guy. I’ve gotten great feedback from a lot of people who say that this book is actually more appropriate for women than men, and I can explain why in a moment if that’s of interest. But that’s an example of a pure primitive. I do think there are people that are really hypercivilized. Again, that’s the kind of other side of the coin in terms of these archetypes.

There’s a woman named Bonnie who I’ve worked with over the years, probably more to the book, a conservative, risk-averse, works her way up the hierarchy, has been in the same industry for years. She worked with me at BBDO, she was there for a quarter of a century, she said that she made a primitive move by going to her boss and saying, “No, I do not want that promotion.” And the reason she said no, which took a lot of courage, it was the kind of offer that you couldn’t refuse, that 99% of her colleagues would’ve said, “Yes, I’m taking that job,” and unlike Love, she said, “No, I’m not taking the job.” And part of it, she traced back to kind of making a primitive move and being oppositional, which is one of the key traits to being a primitive that I think is worth talking about, in having the courage to say no, having the courage to say, “I don’t see it that way,” especially in a world in corporate America that, a lot of times, there’s a lot of group-think going on out there, and we all shake our head, “Yes, yes, yes,” even though in our hearts and our minds we’re thinking something else.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, then I’m curious, for those who are conservative and then they are…we want to tap into the primal drive, how is that done?

Marco Greenberg
I put a prescription together. And one of the books on PR that I suggested all my students read was “Made to Stick” by the Heath brothers. Have you ever read that book?

Pete Mockaitis
I have it on my shelf, and we interviewed Dan Heath recently.

Marco Greenberg
Oh, he’s just amazing. And, for me, that teaches us the value of the unexpected, but it also teaches us the importance of picking the right acronym, something that sticks, no pun intended, that’s memorable. And I was inspired by them, and after I came up with the premise for the book, I sat on my couch one morning, and I wrote “primitives are roaming,” kind of like our ancient ancestors, right? And I’m not talking about roaming on our cellphone. I’m talking about getting out there and exploring unconquered territory.

And I started with that theme, and then I worked backwards, and said, “What does roaming stand for? And how can it help people out there that feel stuck in their career, that feel burnt out, that feel underappreciated?” And you know how many people that describes, right? We’re talking in the millions. So, for me, and I’ll go through it very quickly, and then I’d be happy to dissect it. For me, people who are roaming are, A, relentless, that’s the R, and it doesn’t just mean working hard. It means sometimes stopping and then restarting or jumping lanes, but it means not forgetting what our big goals are, what those big targets are.

O, as we mentioned earlier, is for oppositional, the courage to say, “You’re wrong, and here’s why,” rather than just shaking our head, “Yes, yes, yes,” and engaging in more destructive group-think. The A is for agnostic, being able to roam from field to field rather than just being one occupation your whole life. A lot of people were typewriter repairmen in the day. That job has gone by the wayside along with a lot of other occupations. M is one of my favorites, Pete, and M stands for messianic, not necessarily being religious, but it does come from the word messiah, and it’s seeing that you have a divine calling, that’s it’s more than a job, it’s even more than a career. And I’d love to tell you about some people that represent that messianic fervor. I think Elon Musk certainly is one, but there are tons of others that do.

I is a bit of a counterintuitive one, it’s insecure. Yes, insecure. We’re told to be confident and have that swagger. I would argue some of the most successful people I’ve worked with are actually insecure. I have some anecdotes that Richard Branson as an example of that, and it’s not ignoring your insecurity like some do. It’s embracing it. It’s weaponizing it. N is for nuts. Yes, you’ve got to be a little crazy in the good sense of the word. And G is gallant, being noble, not just thinking of yourself but looking out for the other.

So, together it spells roaming. And I think you can give a prescription for people who want to tap into this primitive drive but, understandably, don’t want to get fired, don’t want to be so out there that they’re an outcast. They want to be team players but, at the same time, they want to maintain their independence and be that contrarian out there that actually can take an organization to new heights.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so, yeah, I’d love to hear, I guess, each of these, R-O-A-M-I-N-G, has some things you can do to tap into it. So, why don’t we start with insecure and Richard Branson while we’re there? And then maybe you can share any of the other kind of most accessible and powerful means to tap into that power. So, how do we weaponize insecurity in a helpful way?

Marco Greenberg
Right. Well, it makes me think of my own career when I was working for BBDO, the big advertising giant in their Israeli office, and I met with a wonderful guy who was the former chief rabbi of Ireland, and he was in Israel at the time, Rabbi Rosen. And he looked at me and he said, “Marco, just because we’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not trying to kill us.” So, it was the first time I’ve heard that, and you guys, and viewers out there, probably heard of Andy Grove from Intel, and only the paranoid survives, so it kind of derives from that. But the idea is here we are in a world where I can’t tell you how many millennials have worked for me. And what’s one of their favorite expressions? “It’s all good.”

And sometimes it’s not all good. Sometimes it’s really messed up, so I think the all good kind of mindset comes from a position of chill, let’s just be relaxed, go with the flow, it is what it is. But, oftentimes, in business, we have to be more primal and think like cavemen and cavewomen that, “Yeah, we’re being attacked right now, and this is a time where we might want to tap into that primitive mind as oppose the cerebral mind, and be more instinctive, and be more quick, and be more fast.”

There was a time where neuroscientists thought, “Oh, the primitive mind has no meaning. We should be cerebral. We should be rational. We should be logical.” But recently, including MIT scientists discovered that actually there’s a lot to do with the primitive brain. So, on that insecure front, I think it relates very directly to that, back to Richard Branson, weaponizing your own insecurity.

There is a wonderful podcast on Freakonomics where Stephen Dubner interviews Richard Branson. And Branson admits, in front of his executives, when they’re talking about financials at Virgin, he stopped them and he wasn’t clear, and his top lieutenants didn’t want to embarrassed him, but they realized that, here, a billionaire, Sir Richard Branson, a legend, didn’t know the difference between net and gross. And he admitted it.

And he admitted that he had learning disabilities as a kid and was never very good at math, so they literally drew a figure of a net, like a fisherman, and they said, “Richard, the fish that you keep, that’s the net. The fish that go in the net and then jump back in the water, that’s your gross.” And he said, “Thank you. I got it.” So, in other words, here’s a great executive who doesn’t try to put the wool over people’s eyes and act, “Whoa, I got this,” right? He says, “No, I don’t got this. I’m insecure.” And there are plenty of other examples.

There’s one in the book that I’m very fond of, a former colleague who’s now running all of marketing for YouTube in EMEA, Europe, Middle East, Africa, etc. Her name is Riki Drori. And we have an anecdote with her that she proudly says, “I’m the most insecure person I know.” And she says it with glee. And part of that is it keeps her on her toes, it keeps her always moving forward. It’s not taking things for granted. Instead, it’s always trying to, yes, take it up a notch.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, I hear you there. So, then with the insecurity, it can be quite powerful for, hey, Brene Brown and others, talking about the power of vulnerability, for letting other people be honest and psychologically safe and contribute great ideas, as well as you have some paranoid hustle that can emerge when you’re thinking, “Okay, this is about to be taken from me.” Okay, that’s helpful. Then let’s talk about oppositional. I can see the others kind of maybe more intuitively. But if you’re feeling uncomfortable about being oppositional, but even though you think there could be quite helpful and powerful, what do you do?

Marco Greenberg
It comes down, I think, and I’m saying this as a PR guy, you don’t necessarily need media training for this but it doesn’t hurt. I think it’s how you say it. If you say it in a disrespectful way…

Pete Mockaitis
“Marco, you’re dumb and that’s never going to work.”

Marco Greenberg
Exactly. If you say it in a demeaning way, you’re not going to get what you want, right? But if you’re able to say, “Look, I hear what you’re saying. In fact, I used to think that way myself, but I got to tell you I disagree. Respectfully, lovingly, I disagree. And here’s why.” So, it’s what you say but it’s also, even more important, how you say it.

I got to say, one of the most influential people, not just in my business life but in my life, who I dedicate this book to, is the late Danny Lewin. Danny was the cofounder and chief technology officer of Akamai Technologies. Without going into all the details, tragically, Danny was the first person killed on 9/11. He was a former commando in the Israel Defense Forces. He stood up against the hijackers, and he was killed before the plane went into the first tower.

Danny was a classic oppositional primitive, and not just because he fought back on 9/11, it’s how he did business.
Pete, I might be the first person that ever says a phrase in Hebrew on Awesome at Your Job, but I’m going to do it with your permission, [Hebrew 31:52], “You’re not correct and I’m going to explain why.” That’s what Danny did in a charming, loving way that people thought was irresistible. And, guess what, it took him to new heights. And we have an anecdote in the book on when he went head to head with Jefferey Skilling. Do you remember that name?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah, with Enron.

Marco Greenberg
Totally. So, Danny was brought down by Enron to meet in Houston with the Enron team. This was at the time when Enron, these were the smartest guys in the world. They could do no wrong. No one have heard of Akamai Technologies. And Skilling had a certain idea for him getting involved in the content-delivery business over the World Wide Web, and Danny said, “Jeff, that’s a horrible idea and I’m going to explain to you why.” Needless to say, the meeting didn’t last long. But the point there is that when people at Enron were just saying, “Yes, yes, yes,” to Jeffrey Skilling, who was later indicted and sent to jail, as you well know, that’s not a good thing.

So, I think, like anything, it’s the happy balance between, “Yes, we want to be team players,” but part of our responsibility as a team player is to also indicate when we think things are headed south in the wrong direction.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. I think there’s a lot of fear associated with being oppositional, and there are some ways that you can be diplomatic and helpful as you do so. But I think what’s fascinating is there are times when, boy, when you’re oppositional, it goes fabulously well. Like, I think there was…I remember I had a friend who was a relationship therapist, and she had some hotshot executive who was unaccustomed to having people disagree with him and kind of show him what was inconsistent or blind spots in his thinking and logic and approach. And so, he was just like amazed by this relationship therapist, like, “You need to come work for me.”

And I had an encounter in college, one of my good friends, Anne, she was dating a guy who I thought was kind of funny but also kind of mean. And so, I remember I think I was a little more wildly out there in my youth, and I said, “Oh, yeah, he’s really funny and smart. Although, sometimes has he ever kind of strike you as maybe just a little bit of a-hole.” I said the real word.

Marco Greenberg
Right, right.

Pete Mockaitis
And she laughed and said, “Yes, he very much does.” Later they broke up, and we’re still great friends and she really appreciated that candor. I think it’s largely why we hit it off and kick off such a great friendship is that there can be tremendous gains associated with being oppositional when I think a lot of times we only maybe fixate on the downsides.

Marco Greenberg
You’re so right. By the way, the research bears that out. A lot of people think that nodding your head yes is going to get you ahead in your career track when, many times, it’s the exact opposite. And a lot of research has been done with C-level executives that they actually respect people who argue a position persuasively and can convince them to question their own POV. For example, take Eric Schmidt when he was at Google. He said, “We run this company on questions not answers.”

And I think part of being oppositional is being able to ask questions. And the sad truth of it, and this gets back to the advantage of sometimes being more like a kid. Kids ask a lot of questions. But what happens with society? We beat it out of them, right? Like we say, we’re breaking a horse. We’re teaching a horse to be civilized. A lot of the spirit within kids is broken down. And in the book, we talk about research that the average five- or six-year old asks hundreds of questions a day. Do you know what happens, Pete, when they become teenagers?

Pete Mockaitis
Tell us.

Marco Greenberg
It comes down to asking maybe two or three questions a day. So, they don’t want to rock the boat anymore. They’ve been taught to stay in line, to do as they’re told, to be a good little boy and good little girl, to be excellent sheep. By the way, that’s a great book written by a Yale professor talking about how we’re doing a disservice to our young people today of saying, “Hey, we want you to be physicists, we want you to be poets, we all want you to start the next great NGO,” but sometimes we’re giving them the kind of message that, “We’d rather have you be Big Three consultants and just get in line to do what others do.”

Pete Mockaitis
I was a Big Three consultant but I left. I got out of line in a big way. So, I remember people who say, “So, Pete, what are you thinking about doing?” I was like, “Yeah, I want to go write books and speak and coach.” And they’re, “Oh,” and they all said the same thing, “Well, now is the time to do it. When you’re 25 and don’t have kids or a wife,” which was not an endorsement of, “You’re going to be great.”

Marco Greenberg
Totally. Totally.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s just, “Let me encourage you without rendering a judgment on your success.” But it worked out.

Marco Greenberg
So, I think giving ourselves permission to be a little more out there, in however we define that phrase, can often be the key to our success. The good news is you don’t have to jump outside your organization. I was on the phone with a client from one of our largest academic institutions that we represent that I’m wearing their T-shirt, they’re based in Columbus, Ohio, and she loves the fact that she has the reputation of being someone who, in a respectful way, asks the right questions rather than just following the pack. And for her, that’s been key to her success within a large organization. So, you don’t just have to be an entrepreneur, you can make some primitive moves within a huge bureaucracy and benefit from it.

Pete Mockaitis
Right. Okay. So, now, I want to get a quick take from you in terms of we’re talking about conventions and how we can break them. Do you have any just real quick do’s and don’ts in terms of, hey, convention you probably want to break, and convention you probably don’t want to break?

Marco Greenberg
Let me give you some ideas on conventions that you can break, and we talk about this in the book.
Another anecdote and rule that I think you can think about is sometimes you got to be the craziest dog in the fight. I learned that from an esteemed venture capitalist Todd Degres who ran Spark Capital. He’s invested in everything from Twitter, to Tumblr, to Square, to 1stdibs, etc. And the idea there is you do, sometimes, have to be nuts. You have to be more out there, more daring, more willing to ride the tiger and live on the edge. And that’s something that oftentimes we’re taught not to do. We’re taught to do the analysis-paralysis thing, but we know where that gets us. Not very far.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now, tell me, Marco, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Marco Greenberg
I think we want to remind listeners that some of the brightest people out there are people that see their professional life as an adventure rather than just a job, rather than just showing up. So, I’ll give one of my favorite examples of an author that I’ve learned a ton from, and the reason I mentioned, he’s more than just an author. He’s also an MIT professor. He’s also a social entrepreneur, and I’m talking about Alan Lightman.

If you look at his Wikipedia, it’s like mind-blowing. The guy writes textbooks on astrophysics, then he became the first professor at MIT to institute a writing requirement that you have to actually learn and understand the English language and literature. He then became a writer himself, and he’s written many bestsellers. And then he went to Southeast Asia and started a nonprofit to take a new generation of women leaders to new heights.

So, the reason I mentioned it is, forget about focus, forget about domain expertise. Alan is an example of someone who lives on the edge and has that childlike curiosity, and it’s been his jet fuel. So, for me, a lot of us are playing it too damn safe, and we need to start roaming and jump from field to field. And we have some great examples, including some rocket scientists out there like Alan Lightman from MIT.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Now, could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Marco Greenberg
one of it comes from Troy Anderson who wrote a book about the Chinese game Go. Did you ever play Go?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

Marco Greenberg
With the little pebbles, right? So, one of the things he says about the book, applying it to business, and with Stanford Business School, is “Don’t get too attached to your first moves.” And I think a lot of people, whether they’re starting a business, whether they have a new job, and they look at the job description, and they say, “Well, I’m going to be doing A, B, and C,” and then they might realize they have to shift gears very quickly, and they’re doing W, Y, Z. So, I think being nimble is something that a more primitive mind feels comfortable with as opposed to someone who is more circumscribed, who is following the exact recipe according to the cookbook. The primitives improvise. They’re more spontaneous. They throw a little bit of basil in, a little bit of pepper in, and out comes something great.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. And, now, could you share a favorite study or experiment or a bit of research?

Marco Greenberg
Yeah, we talked about some of the research that connotes the importance of being childlike and being oppositional. And I want to touch on that oppositional point and really bring it home. When I was in college way back when, the best airline in the world, Swissair. Well, back around 2001, Swissair, like a lot of airlines, had a challenge. They brought in consultants, no offense to your former colleagues at the Big Three, and they said, “Swissair has got to do what we say. Read the best practices. We did the benchmarking. You got to do this,” and all the nice, very polite, diplomatic people in Geneva and in Zurich said, “Yes, yes, yes, we got to do this.”

Well, what happened? They went out of business. Part of why they went out of business, the research said, is there was no one really presenting that alternative point of view. What’s another way that we can do this? So, there was group-think, and that group-think brought down one of the most successful airlines of all time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And how about a favorite book?

Marco Greenberg
It’s about the 1940 Cincinnati Reds.

Marco Greenberg
And it’s written by Brian Mulligan, and it’s about the various challenges that the team that had the first ever suicide of a player during a major league season, and how people reacted to that suicide. And part of the reaction was these hardened players, many of which emerged from the Depression, many of which went on to fight World War II, after the suicide of one of their colleagues, a kid named Hershberger from southern California, what they learned is, “Don’t make fun of people. Don’t boo people because that has consequences, and bullying is not cool.” And they learned that back from a 1940 episode. We see plenty of examples of that with cyberbullying.

If I can just get a little plug to one of the books that made a big impact on me over the last year. It’s called “In Praise of Wasting Time.” And guess who wrote it? Professor Alan Lightman of MIT. “In Praise of Wasting Time” came from an amazing TED Talk that Alan gave about two years ago. And here we are in an age where everyone is trying to maximize every minute, be billable, I’m sure a lot of your listeners can relate to that billability phrase.

And what Alan says is, “Let’s do the opposite. Let’s just sometimes zone out, have a great idea in the shower.” Speaking of research, it shows why sometimes great ideas happen in the shower, or on a long walk, or when we’re not forcing ourselves to think of something and come up with a solution. We just let our mind wander. We let our mind roam and great things happen.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Good deal. Thank you. And how about a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Marco Greenberg
Let me connect it to another favorite book. “Deep Work” by Cal Newport from Georgetown. Have you had him on?

Pete Mockaitis
Soon.

Marco Greenberg
Yeah. You know, being productive in a distracted age, and I quote him in the book. Everyone is, I like to say, in 911 mode, like the 911 operator. We’re always reacting. We’re always going on someone else’s agenda rather than our own. How fast can we respond to that email? How fast can we spend to that text message? Am I looking at my Slack 24/7? Etcetera, etcetera. Wrong, wrong, wrong. We need to, instead, give us time, as Alan Lightman says, “Step back and actually think.”

So, here’s my tool. I start with the simplest app on my iPhone which is the Memos app. And that’s the first thing I do in the morning after meditating, and a hot bath because I wake up without a need for coffee. I just start with a blank slate and I create. It might be a memo to a client. It might be an idea for an opinion piece. It might be the chapter of a book. It might be an email that I want to write a colleague. But I think if you set the agenda at the start of the day, then that’s your agenda as opposed to following other people’s agenda. So, be more of a goat that climbs the top of the mountain rather than a sheep following the flock. And part of that starts with you write what you want to start the day with rather than consuming what other people want to start the day with.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. Now, could you share with us a key nugget, something that you share that you’re known for, that resonates with folks?

Marco Greenberg
Getting back to insecurity, I’m a shrink-going Upper West Side, middle-aged Jewish guy, and I like to tell a lot of people who work for me, not just “only the paranoid survives” as Andy Grove said, but that a little bit of anxiety is underrated, right? I want people that show a little fear in their eye. I want people that are given an assignment and say, “Wow, how am I going to pull this off?” I want people who don’t think they know it all, right? They don’t think that just because they aced the SAT and went to an Ivy League school that they figured it all out. Quite the contrary. I want people who are hungry.

And, especially, amongst the venture capitalists that I’ve worked with. A lot of them like Todd Degres, they don’t care what school you went to. He went to Trinity, which is a great school in Connecticut, but he didn’t go to Harvard, he didn’t go to Yale, he didn’t go to MIT, he would’ve gotten in in a million years.
He also has a chip on his shoulder, which is another thing that I talk about in the book. Yes, have a chip on your shoulder. We’re told that that’s a bad thing. I think that’s a good thing. So, whether it’s having a chip on your shoulder, or whether it’s realizing that anxiety is underrated, I think it’s time that we interject into the business nomenclature some stuff that’s often counterintuitive but can help people leapfrog in their career rather than stand in line and wait for someone to tap them on the shoulder and promote them, or tap them on the shoulder and tell them they got to move on.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Marco Greenberg
It’s easy to remember, PrimitiveBook.com. You’ll find information on the book. You’ll find some information on me. I’m also really active on LinkedIn.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Marco Greenberg
one of my favorite psychologists is a guy named Albert Ellis who really started the behavioral school of psychology.

Marco Greenberg
So, one of his great books is how to stop making yourself miserable about anything. Yes, anything. And I want to share his wisdom, which is what I said at the beginning of our show, you got to stop should-ing on yourself. Stop should-ing on yourself. A lot of people put themselves in a corner and say, “Well, I should go to business school,” or, “I should be more left-brain and quantitative,” or, “I should do what my parents have been telling me to do, and take the MCAT.” F all of that, and you listen to what that little boy and little girl in you always wanted to do.

And, for me, I always wanted to write, and I always wanted to speak, and I wasn’t courageous enough, like you, to do it in my mid-20s. I’m not leaving my day job anytime soon but I’m finally doing it at 55 so it shows that it’s never too late, and you can honor that inner spirit, that primitive spirit, that can often tell you a lot more than your more cerebral mind.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Marco, thanks so much for spending this time. I wish you lots of luck in all of your primitive adventures.

Marco Greenberg
Really appreciate the opportunity, Pete. And continue the great work that you’re doing at Awesome at Your Job, and I will continue to be a loyal listener.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you.