This Podcast Will Help You Flourish At Work

Pete Mockaitis
Michael, welcome back to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Michael J. Gelb
Thank you so much. Great to be with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to get into your wisdom about mastering the art of public speaking but, first, we got to hear about your juggling experience and performing with The Rolling Stones. What’s the scoop here?

Michael J. Gelb
Well, I worked my way through graduate school as a professional juggler. I used to do children’s parties, I would perform on the streets outside Harvard Square and in London Portobello Road. I worked at a few nightclubs as a juggler. And one day, I was in Hyde Park in London practicing with my juggling partner who used to be the head of Reuters. He was the science editor for Reuters for Europe.

And we were just minding our business juggling in Hyde Park, and a gentleman approached us, and he said, “I’m the tour manager for The Rolling Stones. Their concert tour theme is carnival. We need jugglers. We’ll pay you £50 each if you can come to Earls Court Theater tonight and juggle in between sets with Mick and the Stones.”

So, yeah, we did that and then that went well, so we got invited to the Knebworth Rock Festival where we juggled on a stage shaped like Mick Jagger’s mouth in front of an audience of more than 100,000 people.

Pete Mockaitis
Wow, that is cool. So, what I love about that is that when you’re juggling, your skills are on full display, like it’s clear, like, “Hey, we need you…”

Michael J. Gelb
Or your lack thereof, yes.

Pete Mockaitis
The Rolling Stones manager was like, “Hey, we need jugglers. I can clearly see they are capable of juggling, therefore, come on down.”

Michael J. Gelb
Right.

Pete Mockaitis
That is beautiful. Well, I’ve always had trouble with juggling. Any pro tips for folks getting started?

Michael J. Gelb
Yeah. So, I taught myself to juggle because my original teacher was a brilliant juggler but he didn’t know how to teach. So, he told me, “Take these three balls. Throw them up. Don’t let any of them drop.” So, unfortunately, many of us get turned off from all kinds of activities because we’re told, “Learn this but don’t make mistakes.” And that seemed crazy to me, so I said, “There has to be a better way.”

And I figured, “What if we just started with one ball and got comfortable tossing one ball? And then attempted two but let the balls drop so we could focus just on the throw. And then throw three, let them drop.” And once you get them flowing out of your hands in the right rhythm and pattern, it’s actually quite effortless. They start landing in your hands, and before you know it, you’re juggling. So, the secret is to focus on the throw, start with one ball, work your way up, and have fun.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Now, we know. See, that’s a freebie. We didn’t know we were covering that because we’re talking public speaking. So, you had an earlier version of a book on public speaking over 30 years ago. Tell us, what are some of the lessons that takes 30 years to learn about speaking that you can give us a shortcut for right now?

Michael J. Gelb
Well, they’re really actually pretty simple. The simplest one is to actually know what you’re talking about because people come up to me, and say, “Oh, I want to be a public speaker.” Well, what’s your message? What do you have to tell us? What interesting life experience have you had? What stories do you have to share? What wisdom have you gained and accrued that you will put forth in your presentation? So, we can’t emphasize enough the importance of having something valuable to say.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think that sounds like, “Well, but of course.” But, really, though, I think that’s a powerful point that it’s easy to rush past, yet I think if we really stop and validate, there are many circumstances in which we don’t have something valuable to say, or, like, “Hey, there’s always a weekly staff meeting. That’s just what we do on the Mondays. Okay, and someone needs to present about this.”

So, I think that’s one context in which people speak without having something to say comes up. And I also think that sometimes speaking is not the best modality for conveying a thing, it’s like, “Hey, just write an email or send me a link to the cool TED Talk that does this better than you were going to say.” So, yeah, I think it’s worth lingering there a little bit. Tell us, how do we validate whether we got something worth saying and what might be some alternatives we should use instead?

Michael J. Gelb
Well, the key is to, then, marry what it is you think you have to say, what is your message, with an audience because, ultimately, the meaning of your communication is a function of the response you get from a given audience. So, who are you speaking to and why are you speaking to them? What is the purpose of your presentation? And I guide people before they give any kind of presentation.

And you’re right, it could be a staff meeting, it could be in an informal presentation, or it could be your big TED Talk, or a paid speech. Whatever it happens to be, I guide people to actually write down their objectives for each presentation in terms of, “What specifically do you want the audience to know? How do you want them to feel? And what do you want them to do as a result of your presentation?”

And the further guidance on the objectives, “know, feel, do” is, of course, to keep it simple, speaker. That’s my evolved version of KISS, the KISS principle, “Keep it simple, speaker.” So, simplify your message. Einstein said, “Things should be made as simple as possible, not simpler.” I call it optimal simplicity. Write down what do you want the audience to know, what do you want them to be able to remember.

So, for example, if this were a presentation on public speaking, one thing I want everybody on my presentation on public speaking to understand is, before your presentation, think about what you want the audience to know. Write it down. The second one is tricky. It’s how do you want them to feel. And this one is often lost in business presentations because we think it’s just about the facts or the ideas or the data, but people buy on emotion and they justify with fact.

So, it’s important to tune into the human quality in the interaction. It’s not just an exchange of data. If it was, you could just read it. It’s why we like live presentation with real human beings. It’s why people still, thank God, pay professional speakers to travel around the world and go give live speeches. You can watch what I say on video but people like it better when it’s spontaneous, real interaction, because of the emotional element. So, how do you want them to feel? And then, obviously, what do you want them to do?

Maybe it’s a sales presentation so you want them to buy something, for example. In a lot of staff meetings, maybe it’s just you want people to leave you alone, but you need to know specifically what’s your objective because when you know your message, when you know what you’re talking about, when you’ve done your homework, when you’ve done the preparation, you know who the audience is, you know what you want to tell them, you know why you want to tell it to them, how you want them to feel, what you want them to do as a result of the presentation, that organizes everything such that, well, one of my favorite sayings, “Everybody gets butterflies in the stomach before presenting,” but that’s how you get the butterflies to fly in formation.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, what do I want the audience to know, what do I want them to feel, and what do I want them to do. Can you give us an example of clear articulations of that? Because I think we can maybe be shallow, it’s like, “Oh, I want them to know my product is awesome, I want them to feel kind of excited about it, and I want them to buy it.” Is that detailed enough?

Michael J. Gelb
No. No.

Pete Mockaitis
Let’s hear it.

Michael J. Gelb
But you did a great imitation of a sort of generic, “Ooh, my product is awesome.” It would be good to have that degree of enthusiasm because one of the other huge points is people are always reading your energy, they’re reading your body language, they’re looking to see if there’s any discrepancy between what you’re saying, and your voice tonality, your facial expression, the way you look at them, your gestures. I call it body message synchrony, which is why it’s a really good idea to actually be aligned with and believe in whatever it is you are doing because it’s much easier to have that alignment happen naturally.

Pete Mockaitis
But to the point about synchrony, I think this evaluation that we’re doing, I agree that we’re doing it. I think, in my experience, I think we’re often doing it unconsciously or subconsciously and not so much, like, ticking the boxes with a close conscientious evaluation but rather you just get a vibe, like, “Eh, I’m kind of bored,” or, “Eh, there’s something a little off about this guy, and I don’t really care to dig in. And I don’t know if I trust him. I don’t think he would just straight up lie to me but something feels off here, and I’m just maybe going to tune out.”

Michael J. Gelb
Yes. Well, you’re exactly right. Most people just experience this without being aware of what it is specifically that is the discrepancy. Whereas, I can usually watch somebody and see what the discrepancy is. There’s an old Chinese saying, “Beware of the man whose belly does not move when he laughs.”

Pete Mockaitis
That is a creepy vibe, I will admit.

Michael J. Gelb
Yes, I’m good at that. But coming back to what you said earlier, so it’s not just good enough to say, “Well, gee, I want to tell them my product is awesome.” You probably want to think about what is your unique selling point, what is the specific advantage. Most importantly, what is the need that your product is going to meet that the audience actually has? And then, how can you help them feel that, oh, you’re here to help them?

I’m a big advocate of helping other people, that that’s how to have a successful happy life, that’s how to be a great presenter is, I’m genuinely interested. I want to help people. I’ve always made my living with that principle. There are plenty of people who find ways to make a living by doing other things, by focusing on pandering to people’s addictions and their fears and their anxieties. But if there’s an underlying ethical underpinning to how I teach presentation, it’s present something that will make the world a better place.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we were in the example of selling something for what the knowing, feeling, and doing. It sounds like in a shallow version versus a bit more detailed. Can you give us another common case situation and what a robust articulation of what I want my audience to know, feel, and do sounds like?

Michael J. Gelb
Well, I’m working on a presentation right now, so rather than just telling you about something from the past. I’m working on a presentation for next week, and it’s a five-day seminar. And I am actually going through the whole week each day what I want the audience to know, feel, and do. And then I’m attempting to simplify the whole thing, and this is another point, a takeaway for people, which is I’m going to tell them, right up front on Monday morning at 9:00 o’clock, what it is they’re going to get through the course of the whole five days.

And I’ve been working on a way to codify it in a simple as possible and as memorable as possible a fashion, and I’m going to actually have them do a physical movement that represents each of the five essential things I want them to get in the course of the week. I’m going to introduce that right at the beginning of the week. I’m going to be reinforcing those five points throughout the course of the week. And guess what the last thing we’re going to do is? We’re going to review it again.

So, I’m confident that people will actually, not only understand what I teach them, and this is another critical point for presenting, because it’s easy for people to understand what you’re saying but will they remember it? And if you really want to be a great presenter, you not only get through to people, and they go, “Oh, yeah. Oh, wow, that’s cool. Oh, I didn’t see it that way,” but they also remember it, ideally, for many years to come.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, that sounds swell. So, then, in your specific instance here with the five-day situation, could you give us your articulation of the knowing, feeling, and doing?

Michael J. Gelb
Well, it might take a little while because I have to explain to you, I’m teaching something that’s a little bit off the beaten path of everyday business discourse, and it may not immediately directly relate. This is a Tai Chi Qi Gong seminar.

Pete Mockaitis
We got a Tai Chi seminar, and what do I want them to know, what do I want them to feel, what do I want them to do?

Michael J. Gelb
Well, so I’m teaching something called the five animal frolics.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. It sounds like a good time.

Michael J. Gelb
It’s really cool. I’m going to start by asking people, “Do you like animals?” And they’re all going to say, “Yes.” I say, “Do you like to frolic?” And they’ll say, “Yes, we do.” And I say, “Well, you’ve come to the right place.” And actually, the truth is, because it’s not just a talk, it’s a seminar, there’s a very important element, which is that I’ve learned over years of practical experience, which is it’s always important to connect with the audience first before you try to influence them or get into what you want them to know, feel, and do.

What you want them to feel is comfortable and happy and filled with anticipation and excitement, and you want them to know that they came to the right place by paying money to sign up for your seminar or your presentation, whatever it happens to be. So, I came up with, I was just working on this today when I went for my walk, “What’s the perfect way to get people to feel comfortable, to open up and start to get to know each other, that fits in with the theme of the course? It’s the five animal frolics.”

So, the five animals are the bear, the crane, like the heron, the deer, the monkey, and the tiger. So, I’m going to put the five animals, and I’ve created fabulous graphics for this and images of all of them, and I have poetry associated with each one of them, and music, not to mention the actual movements from the ancient Chinese lineage.

But what I’m going to do is just put the five animals on the board and I’m going to say, “Rank choice voting, describe yourself in terms of these five animals which is most like you, which is second most like you, third, fourth. And then we’re going to talk to everybody and tell everybody, first, one-to-one, and then small groups, and then altogether, who you are in terms of your five-animal ranking of yourself.

So, it’s a disarming, fun, playful way that will engage people with the content of the course. Because what I want them to know at the end of the course is what are the energetic qualities of these five animals and how can you access them.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s what we want them to know. And what do we want them to feel?

Michael J. Gelb
Well, what I want them to feel, I actually want them to feel the quality of the bear, and to feel the quality of the crane, and to feel the quality of the deer, the monkey, and the tiger.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, this sounds like a fun time. I kind of want to be there.

Michael J. Gelb
Oh, it’s going to be awesome.

Pete Mockaitis
And I guess what they’ll do is just the actual bodily motions that you’re describing.

Michael J. Gelb
What I want them to do though is actually practice it. I’m not trying to sell them something. I’m not trying to do this so that they’ll buy something from me or hire me. I just want to give them the best possible experience, but part of what will be the measure of that is people will actually practice the five animals. And a lot of these people are advanced Tai Chi practitioners, so I have another thought in mind for them in terms of what I want them to do, which is to see how the animals play into their Tai Chi form and how it can empower the practice of their Tai Chi form.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Beautiful. All right. So, there we go, knowing, feeling, doing in that context. There we go. Well, so there’s so much good stuff in the book. I’m curious to hear a bit about the mind maps helping us communicate better. I am not much of a mind mapper myself, so, please enlighten me.

Michael J. Gelb
Well, it’s just a whole brain way to generate your ideas for any presentation. And, most importantly, for many people, it helps you remember what you’re going to say. So, it’s one thing to creatively generate it using keywords and images. That’s the essence of a mind map, is you’re expressing your ideas in images and keywords, and you’re generating the ideas first before you organize them. So, initially, it’s kind of messy because most people slow themselves down and limit their creativity because they try to organize their ideas before they generate them.

So, somebody sitting down to give a presentation will say, “Oh, what should I do, say, first?” That’s not the way to start. Don’t worry about what to do first. Just what might you say? Who’s there? What do you know about this? What’s the topic? What stories do you have? So, just put it all out in a non-linear fashion to start with. Then the coolest thing happens when you do it first in this creative free-flowing non-linear way. You step back and then you say, “What would be a good order to present this in?” And it just becomes apparent. It organizes itself.

Then you redo your mind map so it’s in clockwise rotation, and then you make an image and a keyword to go with each branch of the map. And images and keywords are way easier to remember than outlines or paragraphs or sentences.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, it’s funny, as I was imagining, “Hey, I want to say a bunch of stuff.” So, one, I have poor handwriting and drawing skills, and type fast, so I tend to jump, which is lean digital in a lot of ways here. So, when you talked about just putting all the things out there in their natural organization, I was imagining using my shortcuts to move it up a line, down a line, but what you said toward the end is that, “Okay, we got the sequence of things.” But in having a circle rotation with the keyword and image, we have engaged the brain in such a way that it’s easier to remember the sequence of things we’re going to say.

Michael J. Gelb
That is correct.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s cool. And so, I heard a tip, to rotate your portrait landscape piece of paper, landscape over your mind map.

Michael J. Gelb
Oh, landscape. So, mind map, the classical way to do it, which I still do myself and I recommend to all my students, is landscape not portrait because it’s easier to spread out and go in different directions. Start with an image in the center even if you think you can’t draw because it will engage the imaginative pictorial part of your mind. And then print keywords and other images as they arise, put them on lines. The reason to print them is so you can read your own writing because when you start to really get into this, the images and ideas start to flow, and it’s easy for it to get so messy that you can’t read it

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. All right. So, we got a real thing to say, we got clarity on what I want the audience to know, feel, and do, we’ve got it nicely mind-mapped, so we’ve got a masterplan, and we’re not going to forget it. So, I’d love to get your perspective in terms of when you’re actually up in there with the audience, what are some of the best ways to really establish a connection so that you’re vibing together real time?

Michael J. Gelb
Yes. Well, it’s to genuinely care about your audience and care about your message. People sense if you’re genuine. So, that’s one really fundamental element. The other is to put in your time to prepare, to rehearse. A lot of people just go out and try to give their presentation for the first time in front of a live audience, so you’re not used to saying the words, you’re not used to telling the stories.

So, you met my wife, Debra, before, and whenever I’m getting ready to do a presentation, I give it to her multiple times. I tell her, “Wait.” We just went for a walk. I actually gave her the five-animal frolics presentation so that I can practice what it’s like to just say this to another person so it’s not happening for the first time.

And if you rehearse, your rehearsal is the time to make lots of mistakes and to anticipate the needs of the audience in terms of potentially awkward questions you might get. Whereas, if the first time you ever get the awkward question is live in front of the audience, it might throw you off. Now, having said that, there’s a lot of suggestions in the book, in Mastering the Art of Public Speaking on how to get your system aligned so that you won’t freak out if something unexpected happens but you have to practice those before you get up there, too.

If you’re not practicing the things that are in the book, and somebody blindsides you or just ask something that’s challenging, or difficult, or that you didn’t expect, or that you just don’t know, we’ve all seen people get embarrassed and have very difficult experiences, which is why public speaking is the number one fear of the American public.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, what is the procedure by which you prep for the unexpected? One thing that I’ve found does loads for my own confidence is just imagining worst-case scenarios and questions from hell that I really don’t want to get, and then just preparing for all those. And then I just feel like I can’t think of anything that was not going to work, so it’s like, “Oh, what if they don’t have…?”

I remember when I did a lot more keynotes, I would have a Mac, and I just love the look of terror in their eyes, like, when they would say, “Do you have the adaptor?” I was like, “Yes, I have the adaptor.”

Michael J. Gelb
I always make them bring their own computer, I say, “You provide the computer, you set it up. I will send you everything way in advance. You get it set up. I’ll come in the night before. I’ll go over the whole thing.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. That’s good. I found that they have a hard time with my custom fonts, and then they’re like, “I can’t make them go,” or, “I have a different version of PowerPoint or Keynote, and then it didn’t translate.” It’s like they’re not up to it, they’re not up to the task of getting it on their computers successfully.

Michael J. Gelb
Well, speaking of computers and preparation rehearsal, I got to tell you, here’s another very recent real-life story about why it’s so important. So, a couple months ago, I was invited to speak at a conference in Trinidad, sponsored by the biggest company in Trinidad and their business school. And they also invited the co-author of my book The Healing Organization, Professor Raj Sisodia.

So, Raj was supposed to speak and I was supposed to speak on the same day. So, I said to Raj, “Let’s make sure we get there the afternoon before, and just go through our presentations together because I want to make sure that they’ve got it working,” and, as you know, the fonts sometimes come out differently because of their system or what, so you want to go through it, make sure the clicker works, check the light. You check everything well beforehand so you can make changes if you need to.

So, it turns out that they had basically said to Raj, “We want you to speak about The Healing Organization,” that’s the name of our book, and they said to me, “We want you to speak about The Healing Organization.” So, Raj and I had prepared pretty much the same presentation almost with the same slides. So, if we hadn’t met and reviewed this, now the truth is I would’ve been able to improvise. If he went first, and I suddenly saw he had done everything that I was going to do, I can improvise, this is a professional thing, is don’t be dependent on anything. If the audio/visuals fail, if your PowerPoint doesn’t work, you’re ready to rock and roll no matter what.

So, sure enough, we see we have the same slides, we were going to do a lot of the stuff in the same order, so, obviously, I said to Raj, “Let’s change this up. What would you most like to do about this?” So, he said what he wanted to do. I said, “Okay, you go first and do all that in the morning, and then, at the end of the day…” So, we changed places, we had to get the staff to buy into sending out a message explaining that they were changing the order of the speakers at the last moment.

We got them to buy in. And then Raj went first, he gave his presentation, I re-ordered all my slides, I referred back to how he started the day. That’s another thing when you’re presenting with other people. You always make them look good. You always highlight the brilliance of what they said. You share it again because we have a much happier, more beautiful world, plus Raj happens to be an incredibly brilliant guy, so it was easy for me to do that.

And then the audience goes, “Oh, yeah, I remember that this morning.” And so, they’re getting more depth of connection with what he said, and then I’m using that as a launching point for the next point that I want to tell them. And one of the things I wanted them to do is invite us back, which they already have.

Pete Mockaitis
There you go. Success.

Michael J. Gelb
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, tell me, Michael, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Michael J. Gelb
Anything you want to know, it’s about you and the audience. I’m here to share anything you might want to know.

Pete Mockaitis
I guess, tell us, do you have any super tricks for overcoming the fear?

Michael J. Gelb
Yeah, the two most important ones, one is to actually be prepared and know what you’re talking about and know what your objectives are. When you know why you’re doing something and you have stories to tell, almost everybody speaks naturally and freely and openly. They don’t say uhm and ahh and you know if they’re telling a story. So, figure out what your story is, why you’re telling it, that will help tremendously.

The other thing is why do I teach all this Tai Chi and Qi Gong and Alexander technique, because your physical presence and your energy on the stage makes a huge difference to the audience but also to you. So, if you have done a preparatory energy-harmonizing practice, and there are lots of them in the book, the most effective ones that I have learned in 50 years of being a professional speaker, they’re in the book.

So, if you do any, find which ones works best for you. I try to give people options. One of the simplest ones, because you’re nervous, you’re anxious, the adrenaline is starting to flow, just do some exercise, do jumping jacks, just do some shadow boxing, do something that gets your energy moving rather than just sitting there, as people do, waiting for their turn to speak. It’s like waiting to go to the gallows for a lot of people.

So, their body, their energy is stuck. It’s the fear pattern of stress, and, “What happens if this goes wrong?” and all the adrenaline. And then they’re getting cotton mouth, and they feel like they’re having trouble breathing. I’m laughing only because it’s so easy to solve this. Don’t sit there and stew in your own stress hormones. Get up and move. And then I give all kinds of options. The most sophisticated, which comes from the Alexander technique and Tai Chi and Qi Gong.

Pete Mockaitis
And can you give us a tidbit from the Alexander technique?

Michael J. Gelb
Sure. So, Alexander was a professional presenter. He was a Shakespearean actor. And he probably was losing this voice in the middle of presentations, so he came up with a methodology to free himself from this pattern, became famous on the stage, and, ultimately, became even more famous for teaching this method to other actors and singers. It’s still taught today at The Juilliard School and the Royal Academy of Drama, the Royal Academy of Music. It’s like a trade secret of the theatrical profession.

And the simplest practice from the Alexander technique is to, you can do this, you can just stand in front of a mirror, and be as upright as you can be, and smile, and then let go of everything you don’t need to stand there, and stay standing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Lovely. All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Michael J. Gelb
One of my favorite quotes is from the young Leonardo da Vinci who said, “I wish to work miracles.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Michael J. Gelb
I tell you, my favorite study related to presenting is a study that was done with inmates at Rahway State Prison, and they asked muggers in the prison to look at videos of people walking down the street, and say who they would mug. And the muggers said that they would mug anybody who looked out of it, who wasn’t paying attention, who looked weak, they would attack.

Interestingly, anybody who looked kind of arrogant, they wanted to attack. People who looked balanced, poised, and present, the muggers said, “I just wouldn’t bother that person. There are too many easier targets.” And the lesson is when you walk on stage, don’t be mug-able.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Good lesson. And so, it didn’t have anything to do with them looking rich, like, “Ooh, they got the expensive sneakers, or they…”?

Michael J. Gelb
Well, the thing is if you’re rich and you’re not paying attention…

Pete Mockaitis
Double whammy, okay.

Michael J. Gelb
Right.

Pete Mockaitis
I got you. And a favorite book?

Michael J. Gelb
Favorite book. Well, there are lots of them but my seminal book that inspired me was, Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Michael J. Gelb
Oh, my favorite tool is the juggling ball.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, do you squeeze it or what do you do with it when you’re just working?

Michael J. Gelb
Well, juggle it, and then I also, see, I juggle them. I have them everywhere. See, I have this one. Can you see what it says on it?

Pete Mockaitis
IBM.

Michael J. Gelb
Because I taught a thousand IBM engineers how to juggle.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, cool.

Michael J. Gelb
And so, I kept my IBM juggling ball. I have all sorts of corporate juggling balls all over my office. But actually, I juggle them as well as using them as wrist flexibility and strengthening gadgets.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Michael J. Gelb
Favorite habit. Well, I suppose this is a habit, is walking. I go for a walk. Walking, obviously, I walked into my office to talk to you, but I made it pretty much, we could call it a ritual, maybe a habit to go for a walk in the beautiful around the ponds and through the trees. I’ve done two so far today. I may do one more, possibly two.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Michael J. Gelb
Well, what people quote back to me most often is that it’s really because they’ve read How to Think Like Leonardo da Vinci, which is my most well-known book, is that they quote back to me, and say, “Da Vinci was always my inspiration, and thank you for bringing him to life for me.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, lovely. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Michael J. Gelb
MichaelGelb.com. G-E-L-B, MichaelGelb.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Michael J. Gelb
The call to action and the final thought is take every opportunity to present. You have to practice. So, think of yourself as a professional presenter. Even if you’re not going to do it for money, eventually, you’re going to keep your job, I think it’s actually the number one thing you can do beyond your technical expertise to strengthen your long-term career prospects and be awesome at your job.

Because if somebody else is technically competent, and you’re technically competent, the person who’s better able to speak to people and get a powerful message across is the one who’s going to be that much more awesome at their job, and have that much greater career prospect.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Michael, thank you. This has been a treat. I wish you much luck and fun amidst your animal frolicking.

Michael J. Gelb
Thanks so much. My pleasure.

Pete Mockaitis
Jenny, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Jenny Wood
Thanks so much. It’s great to be here, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to hear about some of the wisdom you’ve gathered from your time rocking and rolling on your career program at Google and your upcoming book, The Chase: Unconventional, Uninhibited, and Unapologetic Guide to Getting What You Really Want in Life. That sounds pretty handy.

Jenny Wood
Well, I hope it will be handy. I think we over-apologize in life, right? We say, “Sorry. Sorry, I’m late,” instead of, “Thanks for your patience.” I’m not saying that we should never apologize but I think that sometimes we over-apologize when we really are just trying to get what we want in life.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s true. And you’ve got a cool story about meeting your husband, unapologetically. How did this go down?

Jenny Wood
Yeah. So, let me paint the picture here that I tend to have a bit of anxious tendencies. I tend to be pretty data-driven. And when I was single and dating in New York City, I now live in Boulder, but back in 2011, I was single and dating in New York City, and I was riding the subway home from work one day, and I saw an attractive guy standing about 30 feet away from me.

So, my natural somewhat anxious data-driven tendencies would have me sit there in my seat and say, “Well, there’s nothing to do about this. I’m not going to go up and strike up a conversation with him and have all these people look at me while I’m doing that.” But then as the doors were closing, when he got off the train, something took over me, something pushed me out of my subway seat and gave me the courage and the confidence to chase after him, hence the name of the book, The Chase.

And so, I caught up with him, I tapped him on the shoulder, I said, “Excuse me. I’m sorry to bother you,” and he said, “That’s okay. You seem nice.” I gave him my business card, and we went out on a date a week later, and the rest is history. He’s now my husband, my incredible partner, the father of my eight- and five-year-old son and daughter. And that was because I decided to simply ask for what I wanted that day.

I got a little bit curious about what might happen if I was bold, and I got over those anxious tendencies that were keeping me small. And the worst thing that could’ve happened that day was he could’ve said, “Sorry, I’m married.” And then I have my answer, which was better than not knowing to me, because living in uncertainty is so hard. And it’s win-win because then he gets to go home to his wife and kids, and be like, “I still got it, honey. I got hit on the subway.”

Pete Mockaitis
That is beautiful in terms of that’s still a benefit to both of you in terms of you can feel confident and proud of who you were in that moment, and rising and being courageous, and he can feel complimented. But I’d like to zoom in when you said, “Excuse me, I’m sorry to bother you,” what was, if you can recall, as much of the verbatim exchange as possible? Could you share that with us?

Jenny Wood
Yeah, and it’s a little ironic because I started off by saying part of my platform is stop apologizing and I did say, literally, “Excuse me, I’m sorry to bother you.” So, I guess that was before I had evolved into this thought leadership train that I now get so excited about. But he literally said, “That’s okay. You seem nice.” I was carrying flowers from an acapella rehearsal because Google has all sorts of fun activities and things you can participate in, in addition to your core job.

So, I was carrying flowers that were left over from this acapella rehearsal, and I was holding these white Gerber daisies, so he thought I was trying to sell him flowers. And then I said that I was interested in going on a date with him, and then that’s how it happened.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Lovely. That’s really cool. All right. Well, so you have an interesting vantage point. You’ve seen a lot of people chasing stuff and interested in things, working in career development and other fields, and putting together some of these tidbits in your book, The Chase. So, can you share with us, any particularly noteworthy or surprising or counterintuitive discoveries you’ve made about us humans when we’re chasing stuff?

Jenny Wood
Well, honestly, some of it is unsurprising, which is we could all use a little bit more confidence in life. I would even take this as far as finding your swagger, or maybe even being a little less shameful, which you might flip and call shameless, which has a very…

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, there’s the show, yeah.

Jenny Wood
Yeah, there’s a connotation there, right?

Pete Mockaitis
You don’t want to be that vibe.

Jenny Wood
Well, I think what we want to do is to get rid of all the shame that comes, that gets in the way with us going after what we really want. So, for example, oftentimes, we’ll be at, let’s say, a PTO meeting or at a meeting at work, and someone says, “Well, this is a shameless plug.” Actually, my job before Google, I was sitting in this meeting, and someone said, “This is a shameless plug,” and then they began to share a spreadsheet that was going to be so useful to the other 20 people in the room, and everybody said, “Wow, this is going to save me time. This is going to make me so much efficient.”

And so, rather than this person offering, as a lead, “And this is a shameless plug,” perhaps they could’ve said, “This is something that I created that might be useful and helpful to all of you.” So, what I find to be unsurprising is that a lot of us feel impostor syndrome. There was a study out of the University of Glasgow that said 75% of employees regularly feel a lack of confidence at work.

And you think of all the hard stuff that’s going on, we’re just coming out of the pandemic, there’s economic uncertainty, we have new ways of working, there’s headwinds in a lot of industries right now. And as we face all these headwinds, it’s unsurprising that we have additional impostor syndrome or a lack of confidence.

But by finding your swagger, by building your confidence, by asking for what you want, unapologetically, or offering a room of 20 people a useful tool that will save them time and make them more efficient is a way to find your swagger, is a way to increase your confidence, and to stem your impostor syndrome. And one way I think about this, one practical tool, is to know your superpowers, which I’m happy to go into, Pete, or we can take this another direction.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, knowing superpowers is awesome. That’s come up a couple of times. And as I’ve heard it described, some people will call it like a spike. It’s not just people skills or problem solving, but rather it tends to be much more specific and precise and nuanced. So, can you give us, first, some examples and then share with us, how do we uncover that?

Jenny Wood
Yeah, so my three superpowers are leadership, influencing people, and building things from startup to scale. And it took me narrowing down a number of things that I feel like I’m pretty good at, and narrowing it down to three, but it also took me expanding from zero on those days where I feel like everybody is smarter than I am, everybody is more talented than I am, everybody knows more about the industry, the product, the process than I do.

And by knowing my three and having them practiced, I have them ready to roll off my tongue in any situation. That could be a meeting with a perspective mentor. It could be a conversation with my manager. It could be a coffee chat with a new friend when I moved to a new city, which I did when I moved from Manhattan to Boulder in 2018.

So, I always say this about my second superpower, which is influencing people. At the end of the day, I feel like everything is influence or sales, frankly. Now, that could be influencing my VP to adopt my new insights program, or it could be convincing my husband, John, to order sushi versus Italian on a Saturday night. Everything is influencing people. Everything is sales.

But that takes practice, Pete. I can’t just roll out of bed one morning and have that roll off my tongue. I have to narrow it down to my three, and then I have to practice, essentially, what is my elevator pitch, which works in so many areas of life – personal, professional, friendships, relationships.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, how are you defining superpower here?

Jenny Wood
So, I define it, basically, as your strengths, your passions, the things that you are particularly good at, because in all areas of life, everyone has a personal brand, whether they like it or not. It’s what people, essentially, say about you behind closed doors. We all have a personal brand. But how we want to control that narrative of the brand is ultimately up to us, should we choose to lean into that.

Pete Mockaitis
And it’s funny, when you said superpower, I was imagining super precise tidbits, such as identifying the hidden implications of a fact presented that others may overlook. So, for example, that’s a lot of words. Now, leadership feels pretty broad, what do you specifically mean by leadership?

Jenny Wood
So, leadership, first of all, is earned not granted. To me, a manager is kind of managing to spec. That’s actually something that Seth Godin says. Seth Godin and I had a conversation yesterday about his new book that just came out, great book, The Song of Significance: A New Manifesto for Teams. And leadership to me is a state of mind. It is an earned opportunity. It is having empathy for your team. It is ending each one-on-one with, “How can I support you this week?” It is the humble two, using the humble two if you’re in a group meeting.

And I refer to the humble two as these two statements, “I don’t know,” and “I was wrong.” If a leader can use those two statements in a big group of people that are reporting to them, that’s pretty powerful because, of course, we want our leaders to be right most of the time, of course, we want our leaders to have answers often, but for a leader to have the humility to say, “I don’t know and I was wrong,” and then thoughtfully follow-up, get the data that’s needed, get back to that team, that’s powerful stuff. And that, to me, is the difference that makes a leader.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that humble two notion a lot in terms of, “I was wrong.” Another variant of that that I really like is when you’re just in a group of folks chatting about potential ideas, possibilities. This is more about me than leadership as a whole, but when folks say, “I like your way better,” like they prefer what someone else said to what they, themselves, said. I just really love that because I think it speaks volumes.

I don’t know, it seems like there’s a good segment of the population. I think it feels like they need to be right and the smart one in the room. And those humble statements of “I was wrong, I like your way better” and anything in that whole family or cluster, I think, goes a long way to show, “It sure is not about my ego, but it’s about the thing that we’re trying to do here together.”

Jenny Wood
Absolutely. And the best thing you can do as a leader is to lift your people up, to lift as you climb, and to amplify their good ideas, because, as a leader, you get 100% of credit. And this could be a leader, this could be a principal of a school, this could be a leader of a union, this could be a leader in a big corporation, you get 100% credit for everything your team does.

So, that means if they fail, you fail. But if they succeed, you succeed. So, whenever I see a leader giving credit to their team, or sending the email to their manager, thanking their team and CC-ing their team below them for the great work they did, and giving credit, like that’s the leader I want to work for. That’s the leader I want to work for.

Pete Mockaitis
And when it comes to chasing things and doing the influencing, do you have any particular pro tips there?

Jenny Wood
Influence is so much about communication, and I know you’ve had a lot of guests that talk about communication. I know you have some listeners who are early to mid-career who are always looking to up-level their skills in all areas of life. So, one I like a lot is called delete the octopus. And if you’re willing to do a little roleplay here with me, I would ask you to…

Pete Mockaitis
This is where your improv experience coming to bear.

Jenny Wood
This is my improve experience.

Pete Mockaitis
I took one improv course at Second City for three days, so let’s see what I got.

Jenny Wood
Whoa, we’re now going to give you your Second City report card X number of years later. All right. So, let’s say, in this hypothetical scene we’re setting, that we are in a meeting together, and someone, and your manager says, “What are the biggest challenges on your team right now?” So, I’ll actually have you give that to me instead, and say, “Jenny, what are the biggest challenges on your team right now?” And I will offer two ways to answer this question because I think this is key to influencing effectively.

The first way will be ramble-y and not very buttoned-up, and the second way will be much tighter-structured and more buttoned-up. So, again, I’ll ask you to give me two opportunities to answer this question with you as my manager, and me as one of the people in this room of, let’s say, ten people. And the question is, “Jenny, what are the biggest challenges on your team right now?”

Pete Mockaitis
“Jenny, what are the biggest challenges on your team right now?”

Jenny Wood
“Oh, so many challenges. I mean, we started this new team that’s essentially a startup within our real estate industry here at our pretend company. And I really think that the priorities are kind of we’re just not set on our priorities yet, we’ve got a bunch of different goals, and we haven’t really figured out how we’re going to track our goals or what our metrics should be.”

“We also have so many confusing things around our tools and our technology, and things we’re doing in spreadsheets that we should maybe be outsourcing for different tools, which also reminds me that what makes this even harder is all the different regions that we have. We’ve got people in America, we’ve got people in Europe, we’ve got people in Asia. In fact, the other day, I was traveling to Asia and met with the team, but then I took some vacation days. I went scuba diving. I saw this really cool purple octopus on this night dive.”

“But I digress. Going back to the global challenges, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” All right. So, this tip is called delete the octopus, because I just gave a long ramble-y answer that made it really hard to influence you as my manager on what my biggest challenges are right now. So, now, I’m going to ask you to ask me that same question again, “Jenny, what are the biggest challenges on your team right now?” and I’ll answer in an upgraded way.

Pete Mockaitis
“Jenny, what are the biggest challenges on your team right now?”

Jenny Wood
“Our three biggest challenges right now are priorities, technology, and global alignment. Priorities because we’re a new team and we’re still figuring out what our goals and what our metrics are. Technology because we’re still doing things in offline spreadsheets that we should probably be using tools to solve instead. And, finally, global alignment because we have teams in America, in Europe, and in Asia, and if we were more coordinated, we could move faster and more efficiently. So, my three biggest challenges are priorities, technology, and global alignment.”

How much easier was that to understand?

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly, and especially in the context of management and influence that we’re talking about here. It’s, like, with the first, it’s sort of like, “Well, I don’t really know what to latch onto or what I might offer in terms of assistance in that world,” versus this, it’s like, “Oh, well, hey, we’re using this tool right now. It’s awesome. Does your team want access to it? Here it is.”

Jenny Wood
Exactly. Right. And this was all about influence, right? So, how do I influence you as my leader in any area of life. It could be a leader in a community center. It could be a leader in a social group. It could be a leader in any volunteer group. How do I influence you as my leader to help me with the things that I need to help me achieve my goals?

So, in this particular case, which is a professional example, my goal is to get more support from my manager on priorities, on technology, on global alignment. But if I give that long-winded ramble-y answer, there’s no way for you, as you said, to latch onto what I most need. And what is the specific tactic I used there?

The specific tactic I used was simply write down a list of seven to ten things that are problems, circle, let’s call it, two to three, and then when I start speaking, simply lead with those singular words. Just priorities, just technology, and just global alignment.

And that means that I also embrace the power of a pause, which people, early in their careers, sometimes think makes them seem less buttoned-up and not as smart or not as prepared, but it actually has a counterintuitive effect. It makes people seem smarter and more buttoned-up and more knowledgeable and prepared.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And on the receiving end of a pause, it’s funny, it just sort of galvanizes attention and builds a little bit of suspense. I remember my Uncle Topper, which was one of my first people I look to for speaking wisdom, episode 100, he would do that frequently in his speeches, and I was like, “Well, what’s he going to say next? Well, what is that?”

And so, it builds the suspense and gravity and attention all the more, which is great, which is what you want, people paying attention to you. As well as it actually saves time in terms of, “Ooh, I don’t know if I want to ‘waste’ the one minute of silence to gather it.” But, really, that one minute often will save ten minutes of ramble not gone down.

Jenny Wood
Yeah, exactly. And think of all the ways, areas in our life where you ramble – relationships, friendships. It’s also a way to show that you respect somebody else by slowing down and pausing and giving them a moment to speak, especially for those of us. Very hard for me early in my career, still hard for me on some days, I naturally speak to think. And I’ve had to retrain my brain, but it is retrainable, so that I can better think to speak, which is exactly what delete the octopus helps encourage.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, when we’re chasing things, particularly in the career world, we got a clear understanding of your superpowers, and then some thoughts for how we communicate to be influential. Are there any other really top best practices/worst practices that you would highlight here?

Jenny Wood
Well, I would offer that a success mindset comes before success itself. And since I already talked impostor syndrome and all the inner gremlins we can have, let’s take a statement that we might say to ourselves that starts with “I” and has something negative after it. For example, “I don’t have my dream job yet,” “I haven’t met the partner I want to spend the rest of my life with,” “I don’t spend enough time with my daughter.”

So, I already kind of pre-leaked it in that first example by adding a very specific simple word, which is just the word yet. If you take any negative sentiment and you add the word yet to it, so let’s take the second to where I did not add it. So, the second one was, “I have not met the partner I want to spend the rest of my life with,” that’s an inner gremlin, then you add the word yet, “I have not met the partner I want to spend the rest of my life with yet.”
Or, let’s say I’m struggling with work-life balance, and I say, “I don’t spend enough time with my daughter.” Very negative, very down on myself. But if I add the word yet, “I don’t spend enough time with my daughter yet,” I have not yet figured out the right way to mix my professional and my home life in a way that serves me.

So, a success mindset comes before success itself, and adding that word yet can help with that growth mindset. Thank you, Carol Dweck and all your great work on growth mindset. It can help you overcome the negative speak, those barriers we put up in front of ourselves that prevent us from even starting something.

If I said on the subway that day, “Well, I haven’t met my partner, and it’s just all feudal,” well, that’s not the mindset you need to chase what you want. But if I sat there, saying to myself, “That guy is attractive. I am interested. I haven’t met him yet,” well, that’s the inspiration I need to get pushed out of my subway seat by some force that’s helping me chase what I want and achieve it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, inner gremlins, we add the yet. What else do you recommend?

Jenny Wood
I have a number of ways that I also like to encourage people to pump themselves up when they’re feeling like the work they produced that week is not as good as their peers, or the email they sent to their friend group was not as helpful as maybe they would want it to be, and that is this concept of “Meh.”

Not everything we do every week can be a ten out of ten, nor should it be because that’s bad prioritization. So, if you embrace the fact that some of the work you do every week, the emails you write, the texts you send to friends, the conversations you have with your partner, the slides you work on for your presentation, that some of them are going to be meh, then that helps you be a little bit more strategic with where you want to be above average and where you want to be below average because, by definition of how math works, 50% of everything you do this week will be below average.

Pete Mockaitis
Below your average.

Jenny Wood
Below your average, right. Exactly. So, if you look at the 800 or something podcasts episodes you’ve produced, 50% are below average of your average podcasts.

Pete Mockaitis
How dare you, Jenny?

Jenny Wood
How dare I? It’s radical. It’s radical. But it’s true because it’s just math, and being a data lover and an econ major in college, I can’t not share this because I think it’s so freeing. I think it is so freeing to recognize on those nights when you’re having trouble falling asleep because you feel like you didn’t nail the presentation, or those days that I didn’t pick up my daughter from school and I felt like a bad mom because I had a meeting that went too long.

On those days when we feel like we are not at our best, it’s actually quite freeing and helps us fall asleep at night to remember that you cannot be above average on every single task, every single day, every single week, every single year. And then when you do have that episode, and hopefully it’s not this one, Pete, but if it is, well, accept it because it’s just how math works. When you do have that episode that’s below average, you can simply shake it off, realize tomorrow is a new day, and say, “Not every single episode can be above average. Not every single episode can be in my top 10%.”

But some people really struggle with that and want everything to be the absolute best, the absolute superlative, but that gets in the way of trying things, taking risks, recording your next podcast episode, because if you were worried that every single podcast episode had to be the best you’d ever recorded, you probably wouldn’t do another one next week.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And that’s interesting when you talked about taking risks, this reminds me of folks who only took the easy classes they knew they would do well in, in high school or college. And, yep, that will probably get you a higher grade-point average when you’re all done. True. But it’s such a bummer in terms of the discoveries and the adventures and the expansion that could’ve been had you tried some things out that were different, uncomfortable, and probably below average.

Jenny Wood
I love that. Discoveries, adventures, expansions, that’s exactly what we want in life. And we think about taking risks, and in the book, I call this actually being a little bit reckless. I’ve got these edgy words I’m going to use to be a little bit exciting with the language and to encourage people that, sure, there are ways you don’t want to be reckless if it’s harming yourself or harming anybody else, but to be a little bit reckless and go with your gut.

Move to Australia for that semester abroad even though it seems scary and uncertain and it’s far away and you don’t know anybody. Be a little bit reckless in that kind of decision. Sure, dot the Is and cross your Ts on your mortgage forms and your tax documents, but in areas where you can take a little bit of risks, rather than doing considerable analysis paralysis, and weighing every single pro and con, go with your gut.

Be a little reckless, take a little risk because that’s when you do get the adventure, the expansion, and so many new opportunities you wouldn’t even know that you had coming had you just taken the easy class.

Pete Mockaitis
And that little snippet you shared about having trouble falling asleep because you had a bad presentation, I imagine you’ve worked with a lot of overachievers in your day.

Jenny Wood
I’ve worked with a few, one or two.

Pete Mockaitis
And in so doing, there is a theme that happens often in this population, that one can put their whole identity, self-worth, sense of value, into their performance, whether it’s work or family or whatever. And so, that notion, a person who does that may very well have trouble falling asleep when they made a bad presentation.

And that reframe associated with, mathematically, it’s just a fact that 50% of your work will be below your average, and to try and find peace with that meh is handy, do you have any other bits of wisdom for this population that struggles with that interior emotional challenge?

Jenny Wood
Well, this is not my wisdom but wisdom from social psychological principles. It’s called the spotlight effect. And it essentially means that, let’s say, for example, I do a lot of speaking engagements, and sometimes they’re really good, and sometimes it’s not my best day.

So, if I were losing sleep that night, thinking, “Oh, my gosh, I did this keynote for this organization, and I messed up slide seven.” And I’m, like, replaying it over and over in my head, and I’m anxious, and I’m tossing and turning, and the inner gremlins are roaring. I have to remember the spotlight effect, which is that I have a spotlight on me right now, focused on how I’d bombed slide seven, but any audience member is worried about the presentation they gave to their customer that day where they maybe messed up slide 11.

So, I’ve got a spotlight on me about slide seven in my presentation, they’ve got a spotlight on them about how they delivered slide 11 in their customer presentation, and, therefore, we could all just live happier, more fulfilled, more at peace if we recognized that people are never as worried about our mistakes, our transgressions, our slip ups as we are ourselves because of this social psychological concept called the spotlight effect.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Good. Thank you. Well, Jenny, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Jenny Wood
I’m so excited to talk about my favorite things. I think we covered it. It’s really all about asking for what you want unapologetically, and showing up each day in life and work and family and friendships unapologetically in a way that is about being bold.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I guess I was just going to follow-up with…when it comes to asking unapologetically, when folks are in the heat of the moment, and they think they do want to talk to that gentleman on the subway, or to make that request, and they’re just scared, emotions, in the moment, what do you recommend they do?

Jenny Wood
Well, there’s a very practical thing you can do, which is simply breathe. Breathe in, breathe out, and to recognize, at least for me, I really struggle with uncertainty. That’s when my anxiety kicks in the most. Uncertainty about where to live, uncertainty about which house to buy, “Is it the right house to buy?” Uncertainty about, “Is this the right life partner?” Uncertainty about what to talk to my colleague about that might be a challenging conversation versus not.

To me, the anxiety lives in the uncertainty. So, if you contrast that with when you’re bold and ask for what you want unapologetically, or make a courageous move unapologetically, you tend to get an answer one way or the other. The answer might be yes. The answer might be no. But I, frankly, would rather live with a no and feel less anxious than live in the uncertainty and feel more anxious.

So, that always encourages me to get out of my subway seat and take the bold move, do the hard thing because I personally feel, and I hear this from a lot of people that I partner with as well, that uncertainty is very disconcerting to them and very stressful, and they’d rather have the answer, too, but people have a hard time taking that first step.

So, it’s almost like zooming out and seeing that long view of, “On the other side of this, I’d rather have the answer, even if the answer is no,” because, as Wayne Gretzky taught us in hockey, you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take, but if you take a couple shots, or get off the subway a couple times, you might end up with a husband, or a great career, or a great family life, or a great passion of a hobby.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jenny Wood
Yes, I love this quote, “Rationalization is a weapon so powerful it should require a background check.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Jenny Wood
That’s by Dan Pink. Because we rationalize not sending that email to that prospective mentor, or not having the tough conversation with a peer who’s maybe a little bit more challenging to work with. It keeps us small and it thwarts our full potential when we rationalize why we shouldn’t take a bold move, or when we rationalize why we shouldn’t take a bold action or chase something we truly want.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Jenny Wood
Well, I do a lot on LinkedIn, and I offered a poll that, I guess, this is first-party research here, this is my own research, but I asked a poll, “Do you have a 10-year plan? Do you have a five-year plan?” And I think there’s this misconception with people earlier to mid-career that all the leaders they worked with had some big grand 10-year plan or five-year plan, but the data actually is counterintuitive and suggests otherwise.

Eighty-one percent of people, that’s almost 2,000 people who answered, did not have a 10-year plan. I think it was about 56% of people did not even have a five-year plan. So, that’s why everything I’ve spoken about in this conversation so far has been to help you, listeners, do big small things – that’s actually the name of my newsletter, Big Small Things – to cast votes for the future person you want to be, to cast votes for the goals that you want to achieve because it’s not some big colossal 10-year plan. It’s really about the big small things you do every day to move one step closer to your goals that you’re chasing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Jenny Wood
Build for Tomorrow by Jason Feiffer. He’s been a guest on the show, and he is just so wise and so smart. His four phases are panic, adaptation, new normal, and wouldn’t go back, which is a bit counterintuitive, that last one. Episode 848 on your show.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Jenny Wood
I like the four Ds. When you’re looking at your to-do list, the four Ds are do, delay, drop, and delegate because that really helps you structure. If you have 20 things on your to-do list, you don’t have to do them all today, you don’t have to do them all this morning. And my favorite one is delay because sometimes when you delay, something just falls off the to-do list because either it’s decided it doesn’t need to be done, or somebody else takes care of it, and then, poof, it goes away.

So, if you just write down delay next to a couple tasks, you feel like you’re in control of your to-do list, but you don’t have that feeling of overwhelm to get through every single item. So, the four Ds are do, delay, drop, and delegate.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Jenny Wood
A favorite habit is using a checklist each day. So, I’m a pilot for fun, a private pilot, and the other day I was taking my kids up to fly, and my five-year-old daughter said…I was going through my checklist so I said, “Mixture reached. Avionics on. Flaps up,” as I went through the takeoff checklist. And she said, “Mommy, what are you talking about?” And I said, “I’m going through the checklist. This is to have a safe and effective flight.”

And I like to bring that concept to my day-to-day as well. So, rather than wake up in the morning, immediately check my work email, and start reactively responding, I have a checklist. Exercise for 30 minutes. Meditate for five minutes. Spend 60 minutes on the project that is most important but probably the one I’m going to procrastinate when my inbox takes over. So, by having that checklist – exercise, meditate, 60 minutes on the key project – that helps me set up my day, like a good pilot of my day, for a, I guess you could call it, safe and effective day, or productive and effective day.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Jenny Wood
“Serendipity isn’t found; it’s made.” And I made my own serendipity on the subway that day. The New York Times wrote about this story, and the title of the article was, “Serendipity one, spreadsheet zero” because I mentioned I do everything in spreadsheets. I even had the spreadsheet of all the people I was dating, I’m super organized, and kept track of it all.

And so, on that particular day, serendipity won out, but I made the serendipity. Luck is when preparation meets opportunity, we all know. So, that day, I made my own serendipity by making the bold move to chase what I wanted unapologetically.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now I want to know, in the spreadsheet, one of the columns is the name.

Jenny Wood
Uh-oh, here we go. Here we go.

Pete Mockaitis
What are some of the other columns in that spreadsheet?

Jenny Wood
So, it wasn’t so much an evaluative spreadsheet. It was a spreadsheet so that I was prepared walking into date. So, it would be name, and this was like a lot of early days online dating, so it was mostly about anything we’d talked about online. It was probably logistics, too, where we were going, what time, whether we’d spoken on the phone, and then kind of key nuggets about what we’ve talked about so I walked in somewhat informed when I went into that conversation.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, and if you have a lot of online dating people, you might just straight up get mixed up, like, “Whoops, sorry about that. That was the other guy.”

Jenny Wood
Yeah, I was trying to be a good partner.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jenny Wood
I post on LinkedIn almost every day, but I mentioned my newsletter, Big Small Things, which you can sign up for. It’s a super short nugget that you get, delivered right to your inbox, lots of things like we’ve talked about that are highly actionable to help you be successful and chase your goals. And that is at ItsJennyWood.com/newsletter. So, I-T-S-J-E-N-N-Y-W-O-O-D.com/newsletter.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jenny Wood
Well, I think it’s just asking for what you want unapologetically. So, as I mentioned, it’s easy to not do it because it’s easy to not ask for something. Rationalization is a weapon so powerful it should require a background check. It’s easy to rationalize not asking for something, not sending back the lukewarm mashed potatoes at a restaurant because you rationalize that you don’t want to bother the server, or rationalizing not saying to your colleague, “Hey, I’d really love to take the lead on our client presentation next time because I want to grow that skill,” because, “Oh, I feel bad and it’s not really my place to the lead. That’s their responsibility.”

But the people you work with are not mind readers, the server at the restaurant is not a mind reader that the mashed potatoes are lukewarm, your manager is not a mind reader that you want to challenge yourself in a new way, so you have to have the confidence, that swagger, that agency to ask for what you want so that you can get what you want.

Because in any room that you’re in, nobody cares more about your goals than you do. So, it really is up to each of us to have that agency, to have that confidence, to find that swagger to go after what we want because there’s nothing wrong with having goals and chasing them.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Jenny, I wish you lots of luck with all your chases.

Jenny Wood
Well, thank you so much. You, too, Pete.