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Apr 01
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949: How to End Miscommunications, Unclarity, and Endlessly Repeating the Same Conversation with Marsha Acker

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Marsha Acker reveals how to break free from the cycle of miscommunication and misunderstandings.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The root of misunderstandings and miscommunications
  2. The four actions of every conversation
  3. The more effective way to disagree with someone 

About Marsha

Marsha Acker, CPCC, PCC, CPF, is the host of the Defining Moments of Leadership podcast, the founder and CEO of TeamCatapult, and the author of two groundbreaking and thought-provoking books:  The Art and Science of Facilitation and Build Your Model for Leading Change (a workbook). Marsha has an international presence and reputation as a facilitator of meaningful conversations, a host of dialogue, and a passionate agilest. She coaches leadership teams to grow their collective leadership and to build the capability of achieving true, sustainable behavior change through dialogue.

Resources Mentioned

Marsha Acker Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis

Marsha, welcome.

Marsha Acker

Thanks, Pete. I’m happy to be here.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I’m excited to talk to you, hear your wisdom. And first, I got to know, your pitch claimed you had the answer for “Why do organizations have the same conversations over and over again without getting anywhere, feeling frustrated?” So, I’m just going to put you on the spot right from the beginning. What’s up with that and what do we do about it?

Marsha Acker

Well, I think that so much of what we do every day is about having conversations with one another, and I think many of us would look at conversations and communication as not something that we need to go get any kind of development around it because we already do it. I mean, we do it all day every day, and I think many of us likely think we’re good at it.

But what, in the work that we do, I have found there’s a model that we use to help all of us look at the structure of conversations, and the structure can actually predict the outcome of the conversation. So, maybe a quick litmus test would be to think about “How often do you feel like you have the same conversation over and over again?”

Like, you had a conversation a couple weeks ago, and now you’re back in a conversation, and you’re starting to have that kind of Groundhog Day moment where you’re going, “Hey, wait a minute. I think we’ve been here before.” So, a lot of times I think many of us have those moments, but we don’t really know what to do about it. So, real quick, I think what we could do is, if you want to play with me for a moment, we could lay down a little bit of the theory, and I can tell you a story about how I apply it.

Pete Mockaitis

Yes. Well, I guess, first, I want to tee up the stakes here. Is it, in fact, possible to exit this? Because I think it was Dr. John Gottman who was talking about married couples, he’s like, “You’re going to be basically having the same couple arguments for decades until you die,” which, in a way, was heartbreaking. But in another way liberating, like, “Oh, okay. Well, then I guess we’ll need to figure out how to disagree in an effective, loving kind of a way.” But are you suggesting that, “No, we are not doomed to this fate”?

Marsha Acker

I think that if we notice that we keep coming back around to the same thing, the way I think about conversations is there’s likely something that, each one of us is thinking, but not really saying, or not saying it in a way that the other person can hear it.

And so, that leaves both of us, in some way, kind of leaving the conversation with a piece that we’re thinking but not saying. And I think that’s part of the work to do, is, “Can we be in the conversation and actually be authentic and be effective in how we’re communicating with one another?”

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. So, is it your premise that should we find a means of effectively articulating the unsaid, then we will escape the groundhog loop?

Marsha Acker

I think when we’re able to really fully name what’s happening for us, yes, because we can escape the groundhog loop because both of us are able to work with new information or new data that comes into the conversation. So, that’s partly what enables us to change the nature of the outcome.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay, cool. And so, you said then, in order to pull this off, you want to cover some conceptual territory?

Marsha Acker

Yes.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, go for it.

Marsha Acker

So, it’s work that comes from David Kantor in his theory of structural dynamics, theory of face-to-face communication. And, basically, what it says is that everything that we’re saying can be coded, and if we can code a conversation, that’s partly what will allow us to change the nature of it. So, there’s quite a bit of depth to it, but the very simplest way to start is in action. So, really, everything that we’re saying can be coded into one of only four actions, everything in conversation.

So, the four actions are, one is to set a move, which is to set direction in a conversation. So, move often points. You just made a move when you said, “Let’s hear what you have to say about the theory.” That would be a move. The second action is to follow. So, the follow gets behind or supports what’s happening in a conversation.

The third is to oppose. So, oppose offers correction. It says, “Hey, hold on. Stop. Wait a minute.” And then the fourth is a bystand. And a bystand offers a morally neutral comment about what’s happening in a conversation. So, to bystand, I might say, “I’m noticing I’m really engaged in a conversation right now.” It just puts some data into the conversation.

So, someone could make a move and say, “Let’s go get ice cream.” Someone could follow and say, “That sounds good to me.” Third person might say, “Nope, don’t like it, don’t want to go.” And a fourth person might say, “Well, I’m noticing we have two different ideas about what we’re going to do. What do we want to do next?” So, it’s sort of prompts for a new move.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m fixating on the, I think, did you say innocent? Or maybe I just added that myself, because innocent bystander tends to go together, like in comic books or something, “Innocent bystander.”

Marsha Acker

Yeah. No, just to bystand.

Pete Mockaitis

To bystand, you said that it’s just an observation. It doesn’t have judgment to it. But I got to know, in some ways, I don’t know, it almost feels like it can, like, “I’m noticing that your eyes are dimming and you are growling.” It’s sort of the implication is almost, like, “You’re behaving angrily and inappropriately in this context.” So, I don’t know, maybe I’m missing too much detail.

Marsha Acker

No, it’s great. So, here’s what’s really great about it. So, what you’re naming is, a lot of times, I think in conversation, what happens is we say one thing, so we voice one thing, and if you were just simply coding the conversation, you might code that as a bystand. But I’m on the receiving end of it and I’m going, “Hmm, that doesn’t feel…” like, I’m not experiencing it as a morally neutral statement because it feels like it’s loaded up behind it.

And so, a lot of times when that’s happening, what we’re doing is we’re saying one thing but we intend another. So, I’m speaking a bystand, but I’ve got judgment behind it, and so I’m really intending an oppose.

Pete Mockaitis

I see. Okay. Levels and layers.

Marsha Acker

Well, that’s the tricky part. So, I’ll tell you a quick story. My daughter, when she was much younger, I called it our Groundhog Day conversation, but it would be the, “Get your shoes on, please” conversation. And I would make a move, and I’d say, “Hey, Lauren, the bus will be in here in 10 minutes. I need you to get your shoes on.”

And her response will be, “Okay.” Walk away. Come back. “Bus will be here in five minutes. Need you to get your shoes on.” “Okay.” Five minutes later, at the door, and when I would turn around and say, “Lauren, the bus is here. Let’s go.” And there’s a little girl at the end of the hallway screaming because she says, “I don’t have my shoes on.”

And so, we had this pattern. I was making moves, and she was voicing a follow. She said, “Okay,” but she intended an oppose. It’s not what she meant. And it sets up this pattern of we’re saying one thing but we mean another. And it creates what we call, in the structure of coding it, it creates a covert action. So, what happens is the oppose, both in your example of you are bystanding, but what’s really behind it is a covert opposition.

My daughter was doing the same thing. She would voice a follow, but she would intend an oppose. Now, you know, why is that? Well, somewhere along the way, I might have laid down the expectations that “You’re not allowed to tell me no,” or, “I need you to do something different.” So, what I learned was that was really much more about…she’s a teenager now and we can still get into this pattern because every time when…so what happens is that we’ll have one or two of these actions that we can tend to do more in our behavior, particularly in different systems. So, in my home space, I’m often the one with her making moves, and I’m sort of expecting her to follow. But what’s not helpful is that she’s quite independent, even as a little person, definitely as a teenager, she’s quite independent.

And so, one of the ways that I started to change our stuck conversation, our stuck Groundhog Day conversation, was I stopped being the one making all of the moves, and I’d start to enter that conversation differently with the intent to give her the space to make the move that I could follow. So, our conversations would sound a little different, I would start to do more bystands, and I would say, “I’m noticing it’s 10 till 7:00. The bus is going to be here in 10 minutes or 15 minutes. What do you need to get done?”

And she’d think about it for a moment, and she’d be like, “Well, I need to put my shoes on.” And I’d be like, “Great. So, do you know where your shoes are?” So, I started to bring more bystand into the conversation and allow her the space to make a move. And it took a little bit more conversation in that way. But eventually, what she would come around to do is say, “Well, I need to get my shoes.” I’m like, “Great. So why don’t you do that? You’ve got 15 minutes. So, when do you want to do that?”

So, where I could, I began to shift the conversation, and it helped to change the nature of how we were engaged in that conversation. And I use that because I think it’s just such a really simple example, but it happens so often in leadership teams, across our workplaces. Particularly in American business, I think we have managed out or trained out the voice of opposition.

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah, that’s intriguing on so many levels. And you said this happens thousands of times. I was like, “Yes, I have asked my children thousands of times to put their shoes on.” What’s intriguing in a number of dimensions, like one, just general coaching principle. If you pose a question and they think about it, then that is more active and engaging and more likely to feel rewarding. Like, “Oh, I figured out that I need to get my shoes.” And then they did, and like, “I’m taking care of things.”

It’s funny, my kids right now, they’re five and six, and one and a half, but the five and six-year-olds, it seems like they’re relishing these little tastes of independence. They could say, “I’m going to make some toast.” All right, you go for it. And so, they’re into it. They really just plow through bread because they enjoy making toast and it’s delicious.

But I think, even more than that, they like that, hey, they can’t use the stovetop on their own, they can’t use the oven on their own, but even the microwave can be dicey. But the toaster is like, “Okay, I push the button and then I walk away, and then there we go.” But in many ways, I think, Kwame Christian said, he was on the show, he’s awesome, Negotiate Anything is his podcast. In many ways, we have an inner toddler within us, and so that’s strong.

And I’m intrigued by, when you say covert action, with the shoes, I think that sometimes what’s going on is that they’re thinking, “Well, I’m not opposed to putting on shoes. But at the moment, I’m very engaged with this little mouse character or whatever.” And so, I think that’s funny because covert action makes me think of, “Okay, I’ve got a spy who’s like sneaking into enemy territory.”

But I guess that, too, can run a whole spectrum associated with, “How much am I willfully saying yes when I mean no because I’m hoping they’re just going to shut up and forget about it,” versus, “How much am I like, ‘Oh, yeah, sure. Cool, yeah. Sure, I mean I’ll get to that soonish, so it’s fine, yeah’?”

Marsha Acker

What I’m often going for is wanting leaders to become more aware, more self-aware, of their behavior, how does their behavior, it’ll likely be different how we behave at home, talking to our children versus how do we behave in our leadership team, versus how do we behave in our development team when we’re collaborating with eight, ten peers.

I think it’ll be different, there will be spaces. And I think a lot of it happens, it gets laid down for us at a very early age, in our formative years, we develop. One of my childhood stories is not to oppose because it’s rude. And so, that got laid down very early on for me. The way that translated into adult and business life is oppose has often been my least used. It’s been the one for me to work on the most. Regardless of the role that I was in, it would be the one, kind of unconsciously, that I would use some of the other actions.

Or, sometimes I’d just make a new move. If I didn’t really want to directly oppose you, I’d just change the subject, which is another pattern that sits underneath of this. Or, many teams fall into the place of they’ll just agree, they’ll say, “Yes,” or, “Sure.” Or, they’ll say, “Sure,” and then they go out of the room after they finished talking to you, and they tell six other people what they really think of your idea, but they don’t bring that conversation in the room.

So, ultimately, what I’m all about, because I think it’s what changes the nature of the conversation, is, “Can we bring the offline conversation online? And can we be more aware of what our behavioral tendencies are, and where we go to say one thing, but we actually intend something else?” and catching sight of the difference between the action and the intent.

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah, that’s intriguing. And I guess, as you have this language and you can start to view conversations in this way, that’s intriguing. So, your goal is to get the offline, online, and get it in there. I think sometimes I follow, maybe often, I follow, I use the words okay, and I do the thing. But internally, I’m thinking, “This is so stupid.”

And I don’t know if that’s valuable, but I guess I’ve also had the internal conversation of, “But it’s pointless to bring this up because it’s not going to affect anything. So, the most efficacious, expedient thing for me to do is to just comply, even though it’s going to result in a worse outcome, but fine.” And I guess maybe sometimes there’s a time and a place where that’s just the reality, and so live it, but go ahead.

Marsha Acker

You and many, many, many, many other people. I watch it over and over. And I often say to folks if you’re in a group of people, and you’re not going to be with them for an ongoing basis, you’ve stepped in, somebody’s made a move, you’re following, like the juice doesn’t feel worth the squeeze, so you just say, “Yep, I disagree or I see it differently, but I’m willing to do it.”

I think doing that intentionally is one thing. Doing it out of a habit is another. And I think those things that you are thinking, what I would offer is those things that you’re thinking are actually quite valuable. But it definitely takes a system, like it takes a group of people that you’re working with on an ongoing basis. Because I think what matters is not that it happens one time or in one moment or with one group, but when it gets to be a stuck pattern, like when it’s a Groundhog Day conversation.

Because I think that’s where you’ll, if you talk to people, all the things that are in the news today about quiet quitting, and people are just burnt out, and they’re tired, and they’re exhausted, and they don’t feel connected, and it’s super hard to connect on Zoom. I hear all of that, and I go straight to this model of, “Yep, because we’re not having the real conversation.”

And people get really exhausted, “At the end of the day, if all I’ve done is have surface level conversations, I’ve not really been able to say what I think, I don’t think anybody wants to listen, so I just sort of fall into this victim mode or this apathetic mode, and I get into doing this sort of I’ll just show up and do the thing until I can do something better.” Like, none of us want to work in that kind of setting or in that kind of situation.

So, I always bring it back to, “Well, I wonder what the pattern is. I wonder which of these actions is being voiced and which are missing,” because those patterns, like things that keep recurring, there will be data in that. And so, I’m a huge advocate for teams, leaders at any level, building the muscle of, “Can we have the real conversation? Can we bring the real conversation online?” And it takes time. It’s not a one-time fix.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s good. So, that’s the main thing is having the real conversation. This reminds me, we had Amy Edmondson on a couple times, talking psychological safety. Any pro tips for how we can have the real conversation more often? One, so we got some coding, we got some awareness, that’s cool. Anything else in terms of building our own conversational courage and/or creating an environment where people feel more comfortable speaking up?

Marsha Acker

Well, I think the work is highly correlated to Amy’s work. Actually, Amy Edmondson and David Kantor worked together at Harvard, so both of their theories are quite distinctly linked. It does take container-building or creating the space. I often say sometimes it can be just helpful to introduce your team to the four-player model as a way to name that, actually, we need all four of these actions in a conversation in order for them to be effective. So, sometimes just all of us starting to gain awareness that we need all four and be watching for when we’re not hearing one of them. So, I think that’s one way.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, that’s great. That’s pretty simple. You just highlight, “Hey, this is what’s up.” And then someone might say, “Hey, I noticed that nobody opposed anything over this whole three-hour meeting. That’s interesting. All just coincidentally in unilateral consensus agreement? What are the odds? Or is someone not saying something that needs to be said?”

Marsha Acker

And, actually, Pete, what I love about what you’re doing is that you’re doing it with a little bit of humor, and I think that that is key to some of this work is to find a way to make it light and humorous, rather than…I realized really many years ago as I was starting to introduce this model to teams and leaders, so they’d take it and they’d be so excited, and then go off to the next meeting, and it was like, “You, you have made too many moves. You need to stop that,” with a bit of finger pointing.

And I was like, “Well, that’s not really what we’re after.” Like, it’s a model to create awareness, but I don’t think it’s really effective if we use it to sort of poke people in the eye with. So, I love the way you’re sort of tongue-in-cheek saying that.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, thank you. And when it comes to opposing, I’m curious, do you have any, because I don’t know, maybe it’s just me, but I imagine for many, that might be the spookiest of the four to step up and do. Any pro tips or any magical words or phrases that are great for opposing? I imagine you’re like, “No, you’re wrong!” is probably not the best way to do it.

Marsha Acker

Well, actually, there is. Well, so two things I’d say. One is we likely all know someone who’s really good at it, so just think about the person. It won’t be hard for everyone. It is definitely based on our behavioral model, like our viewpoint of how we grew up and how we think about the voice of oppose and what it does. So, likely there’s at least one person usually in each group. We sometimes load them up and we call them the devil’s advocate or the naysayer, which I’d encourage everybody to just stop using the labels because I don’t think they’re helpful.

But if you find someone who’s really good at bringing oppose, you can just watch and listen. Sometimes, though, for people who are stuck in opposition, the thing that will be challenging for them is to make a new move. So, they can be really good at opposing, but not good at the suggestion.

So, a really effective oppose, like a way to bring a really effective oppose, is to actually start with more follow and bystand because those are the actions of more inquiry. They’re also the places that, so if you’ve made a move, and you’ve said, “I think we need to switch all of our computers out, and go from Macs to PCs.” And if I want to oppose that, if I just come right back and say, “Nope, I disagree,” it’s helpful because it’s a really clear oppose, so that’s great.

But really, if I just say no, and I push back without voicing anything else, then we’re kind of stuck because now you’ve got an idea and I’ve got an idea, and we’re actually put ourselves in this debate or clash about, “Which one of us is going to have the winning idea?” So, a more effective way for me to oppose that might be to start with a follow, so what’s something about what you’ve suggested that I actually do align with.

So, I might say something like, “Pete, I really appreciate, and I actually share your value about keeping us up to date in technology. I’m with you on that.” I might bystand and say, “You know, I’m noticing that that would create…it would be really expensive. And it’s the first part of the year, we’re not quite sure where our revenue is at.” What’s my clear oppose? “I disagree with doing all of them right now and in this time frame.” But my new suggestion, my new move would be, “What if we looked at it, doing it five at a time?” or something like that? So, what’s my new suggestion? Then it would be back over to you.

And now what’s happened is I’ve actually put some of what I’m seeing, what I agree with, into the conversation, and the idea is that now we can continue a dialogue because I’ve put new data in, and it gives us something to build off of.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s good. Thank you. All right. Well, in your book, Build Your Model for Leading Change, you spend a good portion talking about self-awareness. And I wanted to hear your perspective on why self-awareness is important for change, when, really, Marsha, it’s the other stupid dummy heads who are the problem.

Marsha Acker

I know. I think life would be so much easier if everybody else would change, and then the world would work according to how we view it and what we want to do.

Pete Mockaitis

Exactly.

Marsha Acker

Yeah, I’m a big proponent of self-awareness. And I think that there’s so much to be gained from even just building on…so one aspect of Build Your Model for Leading Change is having a way to look at behavior because I think that behavior drives, like everything that you and I’ve been talking about, behavior and how we’re showing up in communication. Everything starts and ends with how we work with other humans.

And knowing, “Why do I do what I do? And where did I learn to do that? And why do I have such an affinity for following and bystanding in a conversation? And, more importantly, where can I grow my leadership range? Where can I expand my behavior so that it’s more effective?” And I think the way to go about doing that is through getting to know ourselves in various ways, and how we change based on the different contexts that we’re in, because I think context matters.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, so you actually delineate seven critical junctures of functional self-awareness. Could you give us the one-minute version of what are each of these critical junctures?

Marsha Acker

So, the junctures actually expand on the theory of structural dynamics. And without going through each of them, what I would say is they’re about “Where are you able to identify what you do? Are you able to expand your behavioral range? And are you able to notice, kind of growing the muscle for noticing in the moment, when the conversation isn’t working, like, when you’re clashing with someone?”

There’s another piece of it is “Beginning to understand when the stakes rise for me and how my behavior changes when the stakes are high.” We talk a lot about what’s happening today in leading from high stakes, which I think many of us are doing, and how when we’re not at our best, so, “How do we lower the stakes?” And then I think the big piece of it is, “How do we expand our tolerance for difference?”

Pete Mockaitis

Okay, sure thing. Well, I’d love it, so there’s a lot that we could dig into. Could you share with us, I believe, was it Tasha Eurich, we had on the show, who says, “You’re not as self-aware as you think,” is her assertion? Can you tell us, is there a particular zone in which many people overestimate their self-awareness? And how do you recommend we get after that?

Marsha Acker

I watched many leaders believe, like even if we just look at the four actions, many leaders believe that they are good at communicating, number one, with others, and that they are being clear in their communication. And I think the biggest gap that I watched people discover is where they’re not being clear. So, just the small examples, like we talked about today, where I think I’m saying to my daughter, “I need you to get your shoes on.”

Like, I think I’m communicating, but really, I’m doing something entirely different. It happens to me all the time, even with my own team. I’m fascinated. I’ve built a structure where we can give one another feedback in the moment about that. And so, I think it’s noticing when I think I’m doing one thing, but I’m actually doing something else, and it’s being interpreted really differently than what I intended.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, could you give us an example of a common way this unfolds?

Marsha Acker

So, we have a monthly team meeting, and often the purpose of that monthly meeting is really for us to carve out some time and actually slow down our conversations so that we can talk about how we’re working together. And so, I had come in with a move around some reflection questions that I was actually teeing up for everybody to think about as we led into the conversation about thinking about how we were working together as a team.

And I have a colleague who would have agreed that the purpose of our meeting is to align on how we’re working together, talk about how we’re working together, but this particular person at that moment wanted to be involved in creating the agenda for the conversation, not to have me come in with some pre-canned questions. And so, the feedback to me in that moment was, you know, I hold on, “I think we set out with the intention to have a conversation about how we work together, and I feel like I’m being driven to your agenda, not a collective agenda that we would create together.”

And I think the stakes were pretty high for that person because it’s risky to say that. I think it’s really risky to name it. I, in that moment, so the stakes were pretty high for me in that moment because I kept thinking, “It’s not what I intended.” I felt quite misunderstood, and I felt like I was being accused of something that was really not my intent at all.

And so, it was in the moment of actually being able to park any further forward movement and talk about where the mishap was, where the misunderstanding was, that we were able to take what was a fairly high-stakes moment, and then I began to realize, “Okay, so it’s not so much an opposition. It was an oppose but not necessarily the intent, but it was definitely an oppose to how I started it off.” And it became a really, really fabulous conversation afterwards, so that sort of friction moment led to a much deeper conversation about how we work and where some of that pattern, even that dynamic that showed up, how it shows up in other places. But it was really challenging, and I am fascinated by the number of times that I watch that happen in teams.

So, when teams have the ability to name it, high stakes are happening all the time for us, and it either leaves us to keep talking about, like, I think about it, it’s like moving deck chairs around on a sinking ship versus talking about what’s really going on.

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah, it’s intriguing. And it was cool that they voiced it, and so you got to go there. And I remember, it is fascinating, one time I was coordinating in this leadership conference, and I just said something like, “All right. Hey, guys, now we’re off to the sketch session,” and then one of the volunteers, their mom, I heard this third hand, their mom said, “Oh, I think Pete just lost Matt as a volunteer for next year.” I was like, “What? What? I just said now we’re going to walk over here.”

But apparently, for Matt, it was rather an important tradition that he – I think he was dressed in a costume of some sort – like, I marched them over, and that was one of his favorite things, and I’m like, “I had no idea.” I looked at the clock, I said, “Oh, it’s time for us to go there.” And then I was completely oblivious that that mattered. And had I known, I’d be like, “Oh, well, let’s wait for a moment for Matt to return with his costume.” Just kind of a goofy camp kind of vibe.

So, you’re right, like we can just be utterly clueless about such things and, yeah, that’s really eye-opening to make sure that we’ve sort of built in those checks associated with asking questions in that context, like, “Hey, what’s the most important for your volunteer experience this weekend?” It’s like, “Okay, good to know.”

Because, I mean, hey, they’re volunteers, right? I owe them everything in terms of when this event occurred, I want to make sure that they’re getting what they need. But I was like, “Oh, I just didn’t make the agenda in terms of the weekend.” So, I’m just rolling the dice, basically. You don’t know who you’re alienating and why if you don’t take the time to get the info.

Marsha Acker

And I love your example because, here’s the thing, none of us will ever be able to plan or attend all the places that we could just make a mess. And unless we have people around us who have the communicative competency to really raise their hand and say, “Hold on a second. Like, that’s not what I thought we were doing,” or to say it rather than go out of the room and stew about it. We will never know, and I don’t think we can ever plan for all of that.

So, I think about navigating all the change and the turmoil that exists today. Like, we’ve got to have people around us that can say, “Hold up, we’re about to go over the edge,” or “I really see something differently here. I think we’re about to miss something important.”

Pete Mockaitis

That’s great. Well, Marsha, tell me anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Marsha Acker

No, I think we’ve covered a lot, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Marsha Acker

It comes from James Humes, and he says, “The art of communication is the language of leadership.”

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Marsha Acker

I ran across this research, actually, a couple of weeks ago, and it really resonated, still along the same lines, but it was done by ZipDo. So, I think you could go to Google and search it, it was done July of last year. They found that 85% of employees at all levels experience conflict to some degree, and that 60 to 80% of difficulties in organizations come from strained relationships. So, I found that information fascinating.

Pete Mockaitis

And a favorite book?

Marsha Acker

There’s a book by William Isaacs, it’s actually been around for some time, called Dialogue: The Art of Thinking Together.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Marsha Acker

A journal.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite habit?

Marsha Acker

I wake up each morning before everybody else, I have a nice cup of coffee, and I journal.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Marsha Acker

I’m known for saying this phrase a lot, “Awareness precedes choice, precedes change.”

Pete Mockaitis

And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Marsha Acker

You can find me on LinkedIn, Marsha Acker, so I’m happy to connect with folks. And then you can read about the book at BuildYourModel.com, and you can also find me at TeamCatapult.com. And if you go to TeamCatapult.com, there is a Re-D-Room, so re, dash, d, dah, room, you can download a handout about what we’ve been talking about today.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Marsha Acker

Find a way to elevate dialogue.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Marsha, this has been a treat. I wish you many enriching conversations.

Marsha Acker

Thanks, Pete.

Mar 28
0

948: The 3 Simple Steps to Compelling Stories with Mark Carpenter

By | Podcasts | No Comments

 

Master storyteller Mark Carpenter shares handy keys for telling great stories that enrich all your communication.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Why stories are more effective than numbers
  2. The science behind why our brains love stories
  3. The three elements of a memorable story 

About Mark

Mark Carpenter is a serial storyteller who is on a mission to bring more humanity into leadership and sales. 

Mark has leveraged his storytelling ability over the years in marketing communication, public relations, corporate facilitation, and as a college professor. Today, Mark works as a consultant and speaker to teach others what he has learned along the way, and he shares his secrets to purposeful and effective leadership in his best-selling book, Master Storytelling: How to Turn Your Experiences Into Stories that Teach, Lead, and Inspire. 

When he’s not speaking, training, coaching, or creating new content, Mark is likely hiking or snowshoeing in the mountains near his home in Utah, playing the piano, bragging about his grandchildren, or writing children’s books.  

Resources Mentioned

Mark Carpenter Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis

Mark, welcome.

Mark Carpenter

Thank you, Pete. Glad to be here with you.

Pete Mockaitis

I’m excited to hear your wisdom on storytelling, and I’d love it if you could start us off with one of your most surprising, fascinating discoveries you’ve made about storytelling over your whole career of working on this stuff with people.

Mark Carpenter

You know, I think one of the most surprising things that I found is all the research that’s there to support it. I got into this just because I practiced it. It was my wife who nudged me to write this book because she was saying, “You have this way of taking everyday experiences and turning them into stories that can teach lessons.”

And my first thought was, “Well, that’s just what people do.” And she said, “No, no, you do that. Not everybody does that. And you could help other people to be able to do that more intentionally.” So, as I got into the research on the book, I was a little surprised to find out the depth of research behind why storytelling works and why it’s so effective in our business settings.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, Mark, you’re already giving us lessons from a story in that when you said, “That’s just what people do,” and you had a dear, loving, trusted companion, your wife, who said, “No, that’s what you do.” I think that’s often the nature of strengths, is that they seem, “Oh, of course, it’s natural to us,” but, no, really there’s something. special there. So, look at you, already teaching a lesson with a story, Mark, right off the beginning.

Mark Carpenter

That’s what I do, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s just what everyone does, right? Well, lay it on us, what’s a particularly striking research tidbit or insight that is really strong?

Mark Carpenter

Ooh, if I can share a couple, I’d love to be able to do that. Well, one of them was some research that was done at a university, and off the top of my head now I’m losing which one it was, so I’m not going to try to cite it because I’ll probably get it wrong. But they took graduate students and they put them into three groups. And they shared with one group a bunch of data, some important information, told them it’s really important for them to remember.

They took another group, they shared that information with them, but they gave it to them with charts and graphs, too. This is what we do in business to help people remember, right? We put it in charts and graphs. And the third group, they gave them the information in the form of a story. Then they got them back together a couple of weeks later and asked how much they remembered, how accurately they remembered, and what the impact of that information was on them.

They found that the first two groups really had no statistical difference in how well they remembered or how accurately they remembered, how much they remembered, or how accurately they remembered. The third group remembered more of the information, remembered it more accurately, and the surprising thing to me was they found it more credible.

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah, that is surprising.

Mark Carpenter

We think when we’re putting our charts and graphs out there, and we’re giving a bunch of data to people, that’s going to build our credibility. They actually found the information more credible coming into the form of a story because they could relate to it more, it meant something to them individually. It wasn’t just a bunch of numbers or a bunch of information. They could see the relation to themselves, and that’s why they found it more credible. So, that was one of the surprising findings that I discovered in the research that we did for the book. The other one is the work of Dr. Paul Zak, who has investigated what’s going on inside people’s brains.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, oxytocin.

Mark Carpenter

Yeah, the oxytocin guy.

Pete Mockaitis

A former guest on How to be Awesome at Your Job, so he must be a good guy.

Mark Carpenter

Oh, he’s a fabulous guy. I love listening to him. I’ll take me a dose of Dr. Zak just about any time. I love listening to that man. But he discovered that there were three changes that happen inside of our brains when we hear a well-told story. The first one is an increase in oxytocin, and we get that by hearing a relatable story, a relatable situation with relatable characters.

So, you hear somebody tell a story and you think, “Oh, yeah, boy, I’ve been there. I’ve been in that kind of situation before.” We get an increase of oxytocin in our brains. The cool thing is that increases your trust. So, as people are listening to your well-told story, they trust you more because of that increase of oxytocin. Isn’t that awesome?

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I’m chuckling because I’m thinking, I don’t want to poke the bear here, but someone I know was listening to a podcaster who’s been semi-canceled, and I think potentially justifiably in terms of, “Okay, that was kind of beyond the pale.” But he told a story I totally related to, and I was like, “Well, maybe this guy is not so bad.” I was like, “Is that all it took? Is that all it took?” I was like, “Wow.” I was struck by my own reaction. And here you are saying, “Well, no, Pete, there’s biochemical stuff at work here that this is quite normal.”

Mark Carpenter

So, you’ve just given a great example of how that happens. You’ve seen it in reality. You also see it when you see somebody on the street and they’re wearing logo apparel of your alma mater, or your favorite sports team, and all of a sudden, you like that person because you can relate to them. There’s just that literal relatability that comes in. So, that’s one of the powers of storytelling.

Two other things that Dr. Zak identified. When you introduce a little bit of conflict, a little bit of risk in that story, which is what makes the story interesting, the listener has an increase of cortisol in the brain, just a little bit. And the effect of the cortisol is it makes people pay attention more. In small doses. Too much cortisol, it stresses them out. But a little bit of cortisol will make people pay more attention to what you’re saying. So, it’s no wonder people remember better when they hear things in a story, it’s because they’re paying more attention.

And then finally, when you get to a good resolution to your story, people get an increase in dopamine. That neurotransmitter that gives you that kind of, “Ahh,” feeling of satisfaction, when there’s a satisfying ending that comes to that story, that there’s a lesson learned, there’s a good resolution to that story. It’s like leveling up on the video game or checking off something on your to-do list, you get a little sense of dopamine. And that’s what connects people into stories. We all know we like stories, but Dr. Zak’s research shows why, what’s going on with us chemically that really makes stories attractive to us.

Pete Mockaitis

That is so good. That is so good, and intriguing in terms of the credibility piece, specifically. Well, tell us then, when it comes to professionals, I think they’d say, “Well, yes, stories are fun, Mark. I’d like to hear more. I’d like to be able to tell more. But really, how much of an impact is that going to make for my career? And how do I pull it off?”

Mark Carpenter

Well, our book’s subtitle is “How to Turn Your Experiences into Stories that Teach, Lead, and Inspire.” So, if you’re in a position where you need to teach, lead, and inspire – and if I had to do it all over again, I would add “sell” in there as well – teach, lead, sell, and inspire, then storytelling can be effective for you, and we’re not talking about creating fables. There’s great business books out there that are business fables, but that’s not the kind of storytelling we’re talking about.

We’re talking about taking your real-life experience and being able to turn them into stories that people can relate to, that they can learn something from, that will inspire some action, that will lead to some change. So, those are the kind of stories that we’re talking about, specifically, in our book Master Storytelling.

So, if you have a position where you need to do those things – and, by the way who doesn’t? – then storytelling can be of great impact to you. Think of it this way, I’m going to go kind of a baseline for everybody that’s in business that’s had to go through this: the job interview. You prep for that job interview, and you get in your mind what questions they’re going to ask, and you get your straight answers, and how you’re going to deliver those answers. But I pretty much guarantee your answers are going to be almost exactly the same as the person who was interviewed right before you.

Unless you answer the question in the form of, “Let me share a story about an experience that I had that illustrates that.” When they ask you about, “So, what do you feel like is your greatest strength?” Oh, we all want to say things like, “Well, I’m a really hard worker.'” But what if you said, “Well, one of the things that I’ve been praised for by other people is the level of attention to detail that I get. For example…” and then share an experience where you gave a high level of detail to something and were praised for. Your interviewer will remember that better than the person who says, “Oh, I’m really detail-oriented. I’m really good at getting to the details and solving problems.”

Pete Mockaitis

Mark, I love that. And, in some ways, storytelling sounds so lofty. We think of Stephen King just banging away at a typewriter. I’m sure he uses a word processor now. But, like the heroic novelist going through draft after draft, and throwing them into the wastebasket; or Hollywood; or I’m thinking about like “The Moth,” or epic keynoters on the TED stage. But what you did there was so easy. You made a statement, and you said, “For example…” and boom, and you go right into story. In some ways, the word example feels a little bit less lofty and intimidating than story. Like, yeah, but that’s the same thing.

Mark Carpenter

Yeah, absolutely. And we’re pretty practiced at telling stories. We come home from a busy day, and family or friends say, “Hey, how was your day?” And we tell them kind of the story of the day. But in that situation, we’re really just relating the experience. But if I need to teach a lesson from that, I’m going to be more intentional about the parts that I leave out, the parts that I leave in, and make sure I get to the point at the end of that situation or that story.

And so, we’re not looking at those epic novels or epic tales. We’re looking at those day-to-day things that people can relate to that will help them remember a point that you’re trying to make, and really lead to some action.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, now this is maybe the most meta question ever, Mark. We’re talking about storytelling. Can you tell us a story of someone who improved their storytelling skills and saw really cool benefits to their career as a result?

Mark Carpenter

Yeah, I’ll give you an example of an organization I worked with just last year. They had an annual event where they would bring people in from each of the different divisions to present to the leadership team about what their part of the organization was doing to drive forward the mission of the organization. And what they found was a lot of people were standing up and saying, “Our organization is doing these wonderful things,” and they try to give some numbers behind it, and give some kind of lofty words to it.

And the person who was organizing that said, “I really want people to start telling a story, to give an illustration.” And so. they selected people who had an example of something that happened, a specific event that happened within their organization. And I took them through my workshop and coached them on telling that story. And she said, “That event was totally different this year than all the other years.”

Most of the time, the leadership team is sitting there, kind of leaning back in their chairs, a little bit of a bored expression on their face. This time they were leaning in. And what they found was they were taking these words on the wall that were the mission statement, and actually turning them into behaviors in the hall that people could see, and relate to, and understand, and it really drove a lot of energy in the company around their mission, vision, and values.

Pete Mockaitis

I think that is a fine instance because mission, vision, values can really get fluffy, like, “What do we even mean by that?” It’s like, “No, here’s what we mean by exceptional customer service. Get a load of this. Someone bought some shoes, but their dog died, and so we looked them up on Instagram, and drew a picture.”

I think this was a real Zappos story, “And we drew a picture of their dog and them wearing their shoes, and we said, ‘Hey, hope you have fond memories of Fido,’” or whatever. And it was like, “Oh! That’s what you mean by exceptional customer service, and not just listening, and saying, ‘Oh, I understand you’re frustrated, sir. Gotcha.’ Now, it’s more clear and memorable.” I’m remembering this from years ago, see?

Mark Carpenter

There you go. See how sticky stories are? And I love what you said, because it does. It takes the mission, vision, and values from words on the wall to behaviors in the hall, “This is what it sounds like, but this is what it looks like.”

Pete Mockaitis

That’s good. Well, so tell us, fundamentally, what makes a story good versus disappointing?

Mark Carpenter

And so, I’ll start with the research that Dr. Zak and what he’s talked about. Because if you think of those three chemical reactions that we have in our brains, we need to tap into those. So, how do you tap into the oxytocin? You create an experience that people can relate to, with people they can relate to, and a situation or a problem they can relate to.

So, what’s their worthwhile goal? What are they trying to accomplish? And you set this up in the beginning of sharing your experience, “Here’s where we were. Here’s where we were trying to get,” and people can make the connection to, “Oh yeah, I’ve been in that similar situation.” Then you need to introduce some conflict, something has to get in the way of that goal or the story is pretty boring. It doesn’t have much energy to it.

So, what is it that gets in the way of accomplishing that goal? We call this the conflict. And so, that conflict comes in, and that’s what makes people pay attention because they’re going, “What’s going to happen? How are we going to get to the end of this?” And then the third part is what we call the change, “What happens to bring resolution to that?”

Or, “What happened that it didn’t resolve right, but we learned something from that that we can change going forward? Where was the mistake that we made that we can learn from in the future?” because that’s going to bring in the dopamine as well and help people walk away with, “Yeah, I want to make sure that I do the right thing so that I don’t have that same problem that Mark ended up with in the experience that he shared.”

Pete Mockaitis

Mark, I love this so much. I love just making it simple, simple, simple. So, when it comes to good stories I’ve heard about, “Oh, Joseph Campbell, ‘The Hero’s Journey,’” like that’s a lot of steps. And then we got, “Well, Dan Harmon’s got an eight-part story circle model.” And I’ve done that with my five- and six-year-olds. It’s kind of fun. But eight is still a lot of steps. But, Mark, you said we got three. All right, set the scene.

Mark Carpenter

That’s what we’ve narrowed it for that very reason. You’re telling a story the last two to three minutes. It’s hard to fit eight steps into two to three minutes.

Pete Mockaitis

Totally.

Mark Carpenter

Nothing wrong with that eight-step process, but for the purposes of the types of stories that I’m talking about, we needed something really simple.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. So, step one, we set the scene with relatable people, relatable situation, relatable problem. Step two, we’ve got a conflict, something that gets in the way of what we’re after. And step three, we have a change, either because of like an insight and victory, or, “Oh, Oopsie Daisy,” a disappointing failure, and then learning that comes from that.

So, Mark, I’d love it if you could just give us maybe several examples of, we’ve got a business situation, and I might tell the tale with slides and charts and data, but you instead give us our three-step stories that get the job done better. No pressure. Go!

Mark Carpenter

No pressure. Just come up with it right out of the blue here.

Mark Carpenter

Which story do I want to go with? Yeah, I’ll go with one that I’ve been telling recently, and it’s actually not one of my stories. It’s actually a friend of mine. So, here’s another tip that I can throw to your listeners. The stories don’t always have to be yours. You can borrow from other people, and just think of how you’re crafting that story. And then acknowledge it, that it comes from another person.

So, I’ve been talking a lot about the importance of leading with greater humanity. I call it leading like a person, not like a position. And a friend of mine was telling me about a leader that he had. He actually left the company because the leadership was very much in the command-and-control mode, and would fire people on the spot very publicly. He left that company, went over to another company that was actually a competitor. And he had an opportunity three months into this position to introduce the CEO at a big partners conference.

So, they had hundreds of their best partners in the room. He was giving the introduction to the CEO. He’d prepped it, he’d memorized it, he’d worked with the CEO and the details for it. He was feeling really good about it, feeling like this is an opportunity to be seen and to show his value to this new company. He gets through the introduction, and just as he’s introducing the CEO, he says, “Please welcome the CEO of…” and he says the name of his last company.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, yay.

Mark Carpenter

All right. You’re feeling the pain right there?

Pete Mockaitis

It’s so relatable, Mark.

Mark Carpenter

You just came into the story, right? And hundreds of partners go, “Boo!” And he realized what he’d done, and he’s humiliated. Now, he recovered from it quickly by saying, “Of course, we know he wouldn’t work for that company. He’s the CEO of…” and he said the name of the right company, introduced the CEO, the CEO walks on stage, he shakes his hand, and then he walks off.

But as he was walking off, everyone is kind of avoiding him, and he’s thinking, because of the experience that he had at his previous company, “This is it. This is the end for me. I’m going to get fired as soon as the CEO is done speaking.” He found a quiet place away from other people, and started thinking about his next career moves as the CEO is giving this hour-long speech.

The CEO comes off the stage and, very intentionally, starts looking around until he finds my friend Nick. And he walks right to him, and he’s thinking, “Here it comes. Here it comes.” And the CEO puts his arms around him, whispers in his ear, “Don’t worry about it. We’ve all done it. We’ve all made these kinds of mistakes. You’re fine. It’s okay.”

That’s what I call leading like a person. And we all love to have leaders like that, because we will go to bat for leaders like that. So, if you want people to really give their best, that’s the kind of leader you want to be.

Pete Mockaitis

Beautifully done, Mark. So, here we have the situation, I can relate, “Hey, I want to make a great impression. I have an opportunity, that’s really cool. And then, oopsies, made a mistake, feel really bad about it. Uh-oh, what’s going to happen?” And then humanity on full display, and we feel good, and it’s like, “Oh, yeah, I like that.” And it’s like, “I, too, would like to be that kind of a leader, Mark.” Go on. There we are.

Mark Carpenter

Yep. And good job picking up those three phases that are right in there. Once you know them, they’re actually fairly obvious within the story structure. But it just makes it, as we’re talking about, an easy way to organize your thoughts so that you can make it concise. I’ll add to that that the important thing to keep in mind is “What is the lesson I’m trying to teach here? Well, what is my end goal?” because that will help you edit out extraneous information that happened within the experience.

You sometimes hear people make that mistake where they’re telling a story. They want to give every single detail in it, and you’re thinking, “Why is that relevant?” or, “Where’s that going?” And I refer to it as “They don’t land the plane there. They’re just flying around their story and they’re not getting to the point.” So, you have to know what runway you’re landing on, and that will help you get to the point more efficiently.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Thank you. Well, maybe let’s do just that, and say we’re trying to make a point to an executive, a leader, or an organization that something’s got to change. And I’ll try to get more specific, Mark, so that you can really work with this, “Something needs to change and we need to invest significantly in an innovation, a new product, service, offering, or we’re going to be in trouble. And we can’t just keep being all comfy cozy and expect that recurring revenue we’ve thought was great to continue forever if we just continue living in isolation and not creating new cool stuff.”

So, that’s the impact I’m trying to get, is folks can be, like, “Wake up. Take action. We got to do something and stop just living the status quo. There seems to be some foot-dragging and some comfort and risk aversion.” So, that’s a transformation I want. How could I make a story to help me do this, Mark?

Mark Carpenter

Well, there’s a couple of different ways that you can approach that. Number one, look at another organization that didn’t take those steps and has now failed. I could easily tell the story of Blockbuster Video. That’s a very well-known story that shows that they were a, “Nope, we are kingpins. We are cruising. We are just fine. You Netflix people are never going to make it.”

And I would get into some of the details of that. And where’s Blockbuster now? Because they weren’t willing to innovate and they looked at streaming as a “Eh, that’s a fad. That’s never going to going to fly. People want to come to a store and get their DVDs to go home and watch them.” Yeah, I think it’s a classic example of people not innovating.

If you can find one within your organization, if you can find a situation where “We lost this customer because we didn’t have this level of innovation, we didn’t have this direction of going forward.” As you were talking about that, I was even thinking of a very specific example years ago that I faced where there was a company that had just laid off a third of their workplace. And we talked to them about why, and they said, “Because no one’s willing to tell the CEO that he doesn’t have good innovative ideas.”

I was like, “What do you mean? What happens?” He’s “Well, the CEO comes in and says, ‘Hey, I’ve got this great idea. Here’s what I think we should do.’” He presents the idea, and everybody’s thinking, “That’s never going to work, but we really like this guy, so we can’t tell him no, and so we’re going to just try to make it work.”

And it keeps them from innovating on new products, and so their revenue keeps going down, and they ended up just laying off a third of their workplace because they weren’t able to have the tough conversations, basically tell the emperor that he has no clothes, and that the idea is not going to work. They need to expand into new areas. And it ended up putting that company at risk, and they eventually did go out of business. I wasn’t as invested with them when they went out of business so I’m not sure exactly what happened there, but I know that created struggles for them to just keep up with the market.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, so this is really good. And it’s true, you know, as opposed to a fable. So, Mark, help us out in terms of when we think, “Okay, there’s a transformation that we’re going for. We think a story would be cool. We understand the three steps. But, huh, I need some source material.” How do you recommend we do the research, the scouting, the finding of the potential story, subject matter, to start working on?

Mark Carpenter

That’s a great question that I get all the time. And the question that I usually get is, “Well, nothing ever happens in my life. I don’t have any stories that I can tell.” And I usually say, “Well, you’re just not looking for them.” Pay attention. The stories are there. Do some research. Look at other companies. The internet is such a great resource for some of those things. Ask other people.

As we were writing the book, in fact, I included this in the book, a friend of mine shared an experience where he was looking for an illustration of a specific point. And the point that he was trying to make was, “Where has a well-intentioned action backfired on somebody?” And he was looking for examples, looking for examples, couldn’t find anything. Over dinner he mentioned it to his wife and she said, “Oh, I’ve got an example,” and she just had a perfect example for him to share. Ask other people. Open yourself up to those things.

I had an interesting situation where I was in a trainer certification. I was leading this trainer certification, and one of the activities that each participant had to do was to deliver a portion of the content, and include a story to illustrate the point that they were trying to make. This one participant said, “Well, can I just make them up?” And I said, “No, I want this to be a real experience,” and it scared her to death. She was like, “I don’t know where I’m going to come up with a real experience. Usually when I tell stories, I just make them up.” And somebody else in the room said, “I’m not sure how credible that would be.”

So, we talked about looking for your examples. Look for those moments where you have an emotional reaction to something. There’s a lesson embedded in there, and capture those, hold on to them. You may not need it now, but you will in the future. The funny thing is about this one participant in this trainer certification, she came back the next day, told a great story of something that had happened to her the night before on the elevator in the hotel where we were holding this conference.

And because she was looking for it, after that experience happened, she realized, “That’s my story. That illustrates the point that I’m trying to make,” but if she hadn’t been looking for it, she wouldn’t have noticed it. If you’re looking for it, it’s almost like the universe sends you the examples that you need, because these lessons just exist in our day-to-day lives.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s really cool. Think about the strong emotional reactions. And I’m thinking the same way you get ideas for anything is you just sort of like strike it with a stimulus and see what you got. So, I’ve been doing a little bit of journaling and thinking about the timelines and different phases of life, and, “What was I really into when I was 10 versus 16?”

And I think that could maybe spark some things in terms of shaking off the myopia associated with the here and now and the day-to-day of what’s up. And then when you go external, stories about businesses or whatever outside, I was impressed. You know, boy, there’s a lot of talk of AI and ChatGPT and whatever, and I’ve had really mixed results with this stuff in terms of, like, what it’s good at, what it’s not.

But one thing that it’s been very good, I think, is, first I asked for quantity, because I was like, “Give me 10 examples of people who had a transformation in their speaking ability, what they did, and the impact it made.” And it was really cool, it told me stuff like, “Oh, Warren Buffett took a Dale Carnegie course, and he thought it was so transformational that he says it’s the only degree, diploma, certificate, he has hanging in his office was from his Dale Carnegie course.” It’s like, “Okay, this is a little on the nose, ChatGPT. Is this even real?”

And so, I looked it up, and, sure enough, it was. And I was like, “Huh, I had no idea,” and that’s a great one. And even if when AI fails me, which it does more often than not, it just trying, helps spark fresh ideas for me. It’s like, “No, that’s no good, but you reminded me of something. Thank you,” and then it served its purpose.

Mark Carpenter

Exactly. And I’m glad you said that you validated that story before you used it.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, yeah.

Mark Carpenter

Yeah, you use AI as a way to generate ideas, to generate possibilities. The problem is sometimes that’s what AI is doing. They’re generating possibilities. So, they may come back with a story that is a, “Well, this could be true.” So, make sure you, before you use anything that AI generates for you, that you validate that it actually is true, that it actually did happen. I have heard that story about Warren Buffett, so I was thinking that it was true. But sometimes it’ll generate things, examples for you, that could be true.

Pete Mockaitis

Yes, exactly.

Mark Carpenter

Not necessarily true.

Pete Mockaitis

It reminds me when people tell me a story about myself in the past that I don’t actually remember, and I say, “I don’t remember that happening, but it does kind of sound like me, and I don’t think you’re lying, so I’ll just assume that that, in fact, is what happened.” But with AI, it could sometimes just totally fabricate things. So, certainly, do your research and confirm it.

Next, I want to get your take on, in the process of preparing our stories, to what extent do we want to write out, record, transcribe, rehearse? Like, what does prep look like? And can you do too much such that it’s unnatural and less effective? How do you think about story prep?

Mark Carpenter

It’s different for different people. Some people love to just write out their story word for word, and then practice it until it’s natural, and it comes in a flow to them. Other people, bullet points are fine. However, for everyone, practice is essential. It is essential to practice it, to get those words out of your mouth, to formulate them in a way that sounds natural, that sounds normal, and that makes the connections that you want to make.

We have great tools to help us with that. You have friends. Practice it in front of friends. Tell the story to somebody else and see how it lands with them. Take out your phone. Turn on that selfie mode and record yourself and listen back to it. You will pick up a lot that way in terms of, “Ooh, that phrase didn’t work like I thought it was going to. That sounded a lot better in my head than it did coming out of my mouth.” So, practice it so that it does become natural.

To your point, yes, you can over-rehearse it to where it sounds like I’m just dictating to you from a piece of paper instead of actually having the emotion that comes with the story. A couple of years ago, a friend of mine was asking me to coach him a little bit on a presentation that he was going to give, and the advice that he was given was, “You need to memorize this word-for-word.”

And it was really interesting listening to him because I know this person well, that I found it unnatural, and there were times where he’d get to a sentence and he’d go “Uh, uh, uh” and you could tell he was searching for the exact word. But if it’s your experience and it’s your story, and you’re comfortable sharing it with that structure, that three-part structure that I talked about, it will come out much more natural than if you’re memorizing the words, and it’s much more relatable that way as well.

Pete Mockaitis

And when it comes to word choice, any pro tips? I don’t know if there’s any favorite words or phrases or things to avoid. I guess I find, I guess, reading words or copy, in general, I find buzzwords really challenging and unpleasant and a turn-off, like, “You’re looking for a way to leverage omni channel support to increase the ROI of dah, dah, dah.” It’s like, “This is not working for me. Maybe it’s written for somebody else who’s like, ‘Yes, that’s exactly what I’m looking for!’” But how do you think about words to use and words to lose?

Mark Carpenter

Use the words that are natural for you. That’s the biggest advice that I can give you there. If you’re putting in buzzwords, you’re likely using words that you would not normally use, and that will come across. You’ll lose your authenticity when you do that, so use the words that are natural for you. Now, also be careful about inclusive language. Don’t use words that are going to turn people off.

A friend of mine was giving a presentation to a group of Microsoft employees, and made some comment in the middle of a story about, “So, I Googled it.” That’s not what you want to say to people who work at Microsoft. If instead she had said, “I did an internet search,” and not used the G-word to the Microsoft employees, it wouldn’t have been as bad, but she just got a really negative reaction. People went, “Oh,” just right out loud, and she didn’t realize what she’d done initially until she replayed it and went, “Oh, yeah, that’s not the word I should have used here.”

So that’s the caution that I give around word choice is know who your audience is and what’s going to relate to them, but as much as possible, use your own natural language. That will increase the authenticity. It will increase the connection you get from the people you’re talking to.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, Mark, tell me any final do’s and don’ts you want to share about storytelling?

Mark Carpenter

I think the biggest do, be intentional. Just be intentional about why you’re telling the story. Don’t tell stories just to tell stories. We know they’re fun, and there is a time and a place to just tell stories to tell stories. But when you’re using a story to teach, lead, sell, and inspire, be intentional about what you’re trying to get to. What is the point that you’re trying to make? And the more intentional you can be, the better your stories are going to land, and the more it’s going to create a positive impact for you and the goals that you’re trying to achieve.

Pete Mockaitis

Lovely. All right. Well, Mark, now can you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Mark Carpenter

There is one that I’ve leaned on a lot when times get tough. We always get into rush times. One of my college professors, a great person named Ray Beckham, he gave us this advice as we were graduating. He said, “When you get into rush situations, when you get in emergency situations, remember these words, ‘Hurry, but don’t panic.'” That’s one of my favorite quotes, “Hurry, but don’t panic.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Mark Carpenter

This is one that changes over time, too, because I read a lot. And so, it’s usually my favorite most recent book. I love the book that I’ve just read. It’s called How to Listen by Oscar Trimboli.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, Oscar, yeah, on the show.

Mark Carpenter

You had Oscar on your podcast?

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah.

Mark Carpenter

Love Oscar Trimboli, too. I think he’s a great thought leader, and he wrote a marvelous book about how to be more intentional about listening to other people.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Mark Carpenter

This is going to sound almost too light, but I love the Notes app on my phone. I use that to capture those moments when I have an emotional reaction to an experience. I say, “There’s a story there.” I just have a little folder in there that says Stories for Someday, and I just love to just capture that in there with a quick note that someday I’ll come back to when I’m looking for a story, and I’ll find an experience there that I can use.

Pete Mockaitis

And a favorite habit?

Mark Carpenter

I think it’s just intentionally being grateful for something every day, and just acknowledging what I’m grateful for, it really helps me to have a better day.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Mark Carpenter

It’s one that I shared a little bit earlier, that storytelling helps move your mission, vision, and values from words on the wall to behaviors in the hall, so that people can see what you mean by those mission, vision, and value statements.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And, Mark, if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Mark Carpenter

Start with our website Master-Storytelling.com. So, you have to have a little dash between master and storytelling. That’s a great place. We’ve got some free resources there. We’ve got a little document called the Story Catcher that helps you to be more intentional about capturing those events in your life and turning them into stories that will teach, lead, sell, and inspire. So, I’d love to have people come out and get that free resource and connect with me. You can also find me on LinkedIn. Look for Mark Carpenter in Sandy, Utah, and you’ll find me. You’ll see a copy of the Master Storytelling book cover behind me.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Mark Carpenter

Tell your stories. We’ve all got them. And so, be intentional about looking for those experiences that you can turn into stories that teach, lead, sell, and inspire. And look for opportunities to use those to accomplish your goals.

Pete Mockaitis

All right, Mark, this has been tons of fun. I wish you many lovely stories.

Mark Carpenter

Thanks so much. Appreciate the time, Pete.

Mar 25
0

947: How to Listen to Your Body for Leadership Insights with Rachel Rider

By | Podcasts | No Comments

 

Rachel Rider shares visualization and other approaches to gain individualized insights on improving your leadership.

You’ll Learn:

  1. A powerful visualization to break out of negativity
  2. The biological hack to overcome anxiety
  3. How to decode your body’s tension signals 

About Rachel

Rachel Rider founded MettaWorks in 2015 after a distinguished career in HR, receiving executive coaching certification from Columbia University, and extensive training in meditation, Somatic Experiencing, and Polarity Therapy. Starting as HR Business Partner responsible for developing and coaching leaders and teams at Bloomberg, she went on to specialize in leadership coaching at AppNexus (since acquired by AT&T) and Digital Ocean, the third-largest hosting company in the world. She studied under renowned teacher and Zen Mountain Monastery founder John Daido Loori Roshi for 13 years before continuing under his successor, Shugen Arnold Roshi.  

Rider completed a three-year intensive certification in Somatic Experiencing in 2018, and a 2020 training in Polarity Therapy with the aim of bringing leaders tools to unlock effective, long-lasting change in concert with the body. Since 2020, she’s been working intensively with anti-racism coach Makeda Pennycooke. Rider lives in New York with her husband and two children. 

Resources Mentioned

Rachel Rider Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis

Rachel, welcome.

Rachel Rider

It’s so good to be here. Thanks for having me, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I’m excited to be chatting. We’re talking about Who You Are Is How You Lead, and some of your insights is associated with this goodness. Can you tell us any particularly surprising, or fascinating, or counterintuitive discoveries you’ve made along the way here doing your research?

Rachel Rider

When I started this work, I grew up in the corporate world of HR, and I was studying somatic experiencing, which is the regulation of your nervous system, and at that time, it felt too woo to discuss. But what I have found over time working with folks in the professional world, particularly high-powered leaders, is that there is a hunger, almost a desperation, for “How does it not just live in the cognitive but how do I work with my nervous system to be able to navigate the incredible demands of my job?”

And so, where I began timid to discuss this, it felt a little magic-y, a little woo, became actually the thing that people seek me out for, and that was a surprise. I guess I had a presumption or prejudice against the corporate world, but it turns out actually there’s a place for it there.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, it’s interesting. And we’ve talked to a number of guests on the whole spectrum of woo, I would say, and what I find interesting when we talk about woo, one, I guess it’s a little bit of a vibe, maybe hard to define. But when I read your stuff, I feel much more of a biological grounding.

Rachel Rider

Yeah, I appreciate that because I would say I actually live in the realm of woo a lot. And what I think of woo is the non-concrete world, the things you can’t see but you can feel exists – feelings, energy, overwhelm, you know, that’s a feeling. And so, what I appreciate about what you’re saying is my mission is to really translate the intangible but the knowing that’s there into concrete behavior, into a clear understanding, into actually being able to shift your relationship with something as a result of your relationship with the non-concrete.

And so, I believe that also lives in the biology, the body. The body is so concrete, and yet so much of the things that get stuck, a panic attack, or anger, an immediate reaction to something that lives within the body, and so even though it’s intense It’s so clearly there. And so, my passion for this work is how to connect the two, and shift it in a way that’s really healthy and powerful in how you show up professionally.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, could you make all this concrete for us a little bit in terms of a common situation or an example of a client who had a situation, and they put some of the stuff to work and saw cool things happen?

Rachel Rider

Totally. I have a client who is very successful. She built from scratch an eight-figure business, and she came to me struggling to get out of bed in the morning. This woman runs a very successful company. And what was happening was it was so heavy for her. She would stay up late, watching Netflix, and not look at her calendar in the morning, and not wake up for these very important meetings with very powerful people.

And she came to me, and she’s like, “I don’t know what’s going on. I feel stuck and I don’t know how to get out of this. And I’m even like, ‘Should I just shut this business down?’ this successful business, because I feel like it’s killing me.” That’s also, by the way, of mine, I get a lot from the people I work with. I work with very successful people and, unfortunately, that’s a line I hear, and they mean it literally. This is not a figurative line. And it’s such a beautiful way in because it’s like, “There’s something on the line here. There’s something physical on the line here that we need to explore.”

So, the place we started was understanding what was happening in the collapse because she was literally having a physical response. She could not get out of bed in the morning. She could not bring herself to look at her calendar. And so, one thing that we did physically was work with, “How did she notice in her body this happening?” And so, we would track what happens at the end of the day for her. And it was almost like everything in her day was living in her body. There was no body boundary. She was completely absorbing everything and everyone’s needs, and had totally lost her sense of self because she was caretaking of others even within her body.

And so, one of the pieces that we played with was a lot of visualization of pulling these pieces literally, pulling these pieces out of her body, pulling the direct report and their needs out of her body. She didn’t have to put them too far because she didn’t want to forget about them or un-attend to them, but starting to create space. And once we started to create space in her body, noticing she could breathe a little better, she actually felt a little more energy. She actually started to feel the skin on her body and space inside, and then there was room to move around and show up to her life.

And so, this happened over a few sessions, but I feel like I’m giving you a sense of the overall arc of how this work goes. And I’m curious if I’m answering your question.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, no, that’s really cool. So, that notion there, “I feel like it’s killing me,” I think we can all relate to this notion of overwhelm, exhaustion, too much, just, “Baah” hard to take care of a thing, maybe it’s everything, or maybe it’s work as a whole, or maybe it’s a particular procrastinated task, like, “Ah, I just can’t bring myself to do this so I feel like it’s killing me.”

I want to hear some other articulations of this vibe. One I’m hearing a lot from Dr. Trevor Kashey and his podcast, hopefully he’ll be on the show soon, is, “I can’t stand it.” Is that sort of in that same zone? Or, what are some additional articulations of this? Or, are they very different, distinctive flavors, would you say?

Rachel Rider

I think that’s a fair aspect of it, “I can’t stand it.” I think what often I’m hearing the subtext of these clients say is, “The current state is no longer sustainable, and I have no idea how to do it otherwise.” And so, instead of knowing how to escape, they just feel like they’re going to collapse and die. And truly, like physically, like I’ve worked with folks with panic attacks, I worked with folks who, like I just said, kind of can’t get out of bed in the morning.

And there’s something about this piece around feeling trapped, feeling trapped in your success, feeling immobilized by the powerful position that you have, and wanting, first of all, normalizing that. It is very normal to feel that way. And then the question is, “How do we help you?”

Pete Mockaitis

That is good. And I like that portion of normalizing. I was reading Buzz Aldrin’s autobiography kind of randomly, but he too had struggles with depression and such. He was on the moon. You’d think, “Here’s a high-achieving dude,” and yet things were tough in terms of he’d have speaking engagements and just didn’t go. He was like, “I just can’t bring myself to get out of bed and do the thing.” And so, I think this totally happens to high achievers, maybe often, maybe not so often, maybe intensely, maybe subtly, globally or locally, it’s there. So, Rachel, lay it on us, what do we do with this?

Rachel Rider

Yeah, I really love the summary you just gave. This happens often to high achievers. As high achievers, we are seeking something outside of ourselves, and we are beautifully rewarded. I am a high achiever. I speak from direct experience and my clients. Usually, high achievers have pushed themselves so hard to cultivate the success that they’re standing in. And, usually, that pushing and that reaching for that success lives with that outside of themselves.

And so, when they finally made it, and not they, we, when we finally made it, we look around and we’re like, “Where am I? Where do I exist? I can’t find myself in this. And why is this success not the life I want? It’s everything I want and yet it’s not working for me.” And so, there’s this theme of “Where am I in this? Who am I in this?” that gets confused because, for so long, the success has been validated of who we are.

And so, so often that’s a place that I begin with my clients, is finding the internal compass of “Who do I want to be? And it doesn’t mean that I’ve disappeared because of my success. It just means I can’t tell who I am versus the success and what’s important to me.” And as we start to identify that and listen to that voice, and the way we’re doing that is we’re pulling out those other voices, literally, physically, energetically from our body, we’re finding the places inside ourselves that feel neutral, that feel good physically. We’re working with the energy around it.

And then as we find our space inside, what’s amazing is magic happens, clarity happens. Clarity arises from within, it’s like it bubbles up, and insight happens, and spaciousness happens, and we can make decisions from a stronger, more confident space.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay, cool. Well, so then, in practice, how does one execute that in terms of, it’s like, “Okay, I can’t stand it. I feel like it’s killing me. I’m overwhelmed by the stuff. I’m lost amid my success”? Kind of what’s step one, two, three, four, kind of working through some of that?

Rachel Rider

So, I have a client, actually, right now who’s very successful and is trying to make a decision about whether he wants to step into something that he has been successful at before, and it’s very high profile, and he would be very rewarded for, and he is deeply conflicted about this because that reward isn’t necessarily what he’s looking for right now in his life.

And this is like an urgent, pending decision that has a lot of implications either way. If he walks away from it, it’s a major missed opportunity. And if he walks away from it, he may really be able to lean into who he wants to be. But the work that we’re finding is those don’t have to be mutually exclusive. What we’ve been doing concretely is, first, starting to identify whose voices are living within him and whose are his. So, judgments around him taking this opportunity, “Oh, it’s just for the money,” “Oh, it’s just for the accolades,” “Oh, this is a ridiculous occupation.”

Pete Mockaitis

Now, I wonder what it is, Rachel, a ridiculous occupation. Plastic surgeon. I can’t help it. The brain just opened up.

Rachel Rider

No, but right. Exactly. But interesting that that’s where your mind went.

Pete Mockaitis

No offense to plastic surgeons.

Rachel Rider

But that’s what I’m saying, look at the judgments that surround certain roles. And he embodies a role, and he has a judgment of it. Wow! And so, pulling that out, we’re like, “Oh, that’s not your voice. That’s a parental voice.” It’s one of his parent’s voices, “Okay, if we were to pull that voice out and just stick it on the floor next to you, maybe let’s burn it, because it’s not yours.” Even as I say it, I can feel that space that we created for him in that session. Okay, we’re now pulling the voices out, what were you going to say?

Pete Mockaitis

So, when you say pulling it out, sticking it on the floor, burning it, are these are all kind of like visualization exercises in terms of I close my eyes and I imagine this voice is a tangible thing? As a podcaster, I see a waveform.

Rachel Rider

You said a wave?

Pete Mockaitis

A waveform. I see it like in the software, the voice.

Rachel Rider

Yes, yes, yes. So, this is the thing, I want to take away the word imagine because energy is very powerful. When our heart is beating fast because we’re anxious, that’s real. Even if the anxiety of what’s happening isn’t. And so, if I were to pull that anxiety out of my body and hold it, that energy exists. So, yes, you’re visualizing, and you’re holding that energy. 

So, I want us to really know that when we’re playing with visualization, you’re really actually working with the energy. And so, when you see that waveform, when you think of the energy, that is real because of mirror neurons in your body. What’s amazing about visualization is the power of somatic experiencing, your mirror neurons, that when your body sees something happen, your body responds even if it’s in your mind’s eye.

And so, if we go back to the client where we burned that voice, the body witnessing that burning of the voice actually experiences relief. And so, that’s why I want to do away with the idea of imagine because this is truly a deep energetic experience, a healing moment.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And just a practical note, a voice is something one hears. To burn a voice, I’m actually imagining like the decibel wave chart printed on a piece of paper. I said the word “imagine.” Apologies. I’m visualizing that and then a Zippo lighter igniting this piece of paper with the printed decibel waveform of a voice. Is that how one means by which one would “burn a voice”?

Rachel Rider

Whatever you see it as. So, yes, for you that would be true. For this client, it was actually sticky. As we were pulling the voice out of his body, it was a sticky substance. And so, these experiences can come in all forms. What matters is that you’re able to connect with the felt sense of it, the texture, the color, because mirror neurons in the body are a very powerful thing. It’s like when you’re watching a movie, and you see someone kissing another person, it’s like your heart melts a little. Or you watch violence, and that stirs something within you. There’s a reason for that. Mirror neurons are very powerful.

And so, whether you’re watching a movie on your screen or in your mind’s eye, your body’s nervous system is still stirring and responding. That’s why visualization can be so powerful for good and for bad. That’s when you’re getting stuck in a loop about something and your body’s getting worked up. You’re re-running that same conversation in your mind over and over again. Even when I say that, I can feel kind of the anxiety energy, and that’s an opportunity to work with that in your mind, “Okay where does that conversation need to go so that I can sleep right now and not be thinking about it at 2:00 a.m. in the morning?”

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, so then, it sounds, I get you that the visualization is super powerful, and that there are very creative means by which we can represent stuff. And then by doing that visualization, we have a cool response to it. So, then I guess I’m thinking, how do I know what to go after in this visualization adventure?

Rachel Rider

So, where we begin is where a place you get stuck. We need a doorway. And so, for someone who we’re talking about, when we’re really feeling like a job is killing us, where do we feel that in our body? “Oh, my chest gets tight.” Okay. So, we start with the body. We go to the body because we want to get out of our thoughts because we can get stuck there so easily.

And then, where in the body is it? Is it, “Am I feeling like I’m going to die. My chest is getting tighter”? What color is it? What image arrives for you? Is there a texture? How much space does it take up? And once we are able to identify that, then we can decide, “What does this need right now when I have tightness in my body, and it just feels like an iron rod, I have jaw tension?”

And I’ll sit there and I’ll think, “What does this need right now?” The most gentlest thing, and I’ll imagine a flame of a candle sitting next to my really tight jaw, and just watching the molecules of that, that tight metal jaw opening up and moving a little. And that’s how we’re playing. We’re really meeting what’s happening in the body with what it needs.

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah, this is intriguing in terms of it’s like I was just showing my little kids a video animation of DNA transcription and translation, because that’s just mind-blowing, like, “This happens constantly in our cells all the time.” It’s just amazing when I first learned about this in AP Biology, it’s like, “That’s mind-blowing.” And so, the cells know what proteins they need, and say, “All right, we’re just going to go make those via this elaborate process.” It’s just all choreographed beautifully.

So, what’s cool about this is you’re sort of zeroing in from a bodily-felt perspective, what’s the medicine, the prescription I need, and then we’re just going to go ahead and write it up, a visual style. And so, I’m imagining, Rachel, tell me if this feels appropriate, so I’m thinking, “All right, so tax stuff coming up. I don’t want to deal with it,” and it’s like “Aargh” and I just feel “Aargh” with regard to it. And I guess the bodily sensation is I just feel kind of weighted down, like moving, just walking over to the keyboard and clicking over to the bank websites, wherever, just feels heavy and dreadful.

And I know, rationally, “Pete, it’s not a big deal. You’ve done it many, many, many times before. I can handle this. I’m totally capable of this. This can be done.” And yet, my typical response of trying to overpower the weight, in terms of, “Come on, come on, let’s do this! Let’s, like, Eye of the Tiger, like Rocky, like, da-da-da-da!” like, that kind of pump-up stuff, sometimes is adequate, like, “Okay, get over hump and do it.”

But this approach, it would seem, Rachel, that maybe the best move is to say, “Well, let’s look into that bodily sensation. Let’s look into that weight, and what is sort of a visualization prescription that can ease that.” Like what is needed, I’m thinking, is maybe I need more. What I need is some lightness and fun. This needs to be a little silly even. I want to feel like a winner instead of a loser.

Rachel Rider

When you come up with a silly visual of that, like, what is a silly visual when you think of like a winner?

Pete Mockaitis

Well, now, there are so ways we could slice it, but I guess I’m thinking for silly and opposite of heavy-weighted down, I’m almost thinking of like a pogo stick. It’s like, “I’m not weighted down. I am buoyant. I am bouncing, and I’m bouncing in a fun way,” which brings back some childhood memories.

Rachel Rider

If we were to play with this, that’s really cool. I feel your energy shift. Did you just even notice your energy shift as you move the pogo stick?

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah.

Rachel Rider

So, if we’re playing with you pogo-sticking towards the computer, tell me how it feels, and when and if you notice a difference in the lightness to the heaviness as you move closer to the computer on your pogo stick.

Pete Mockaitis

I mean, I’d say maybe by the second or third bounce, and I’m also putting some sound effects in there, Rachel. We’ve got a “boing, boing,” you know, something cartoony, if you will.

Rachel Rider

Yes. So, you’re feeling really light, and then something. By the second or third, you’re feeling the heaviness. If we were to pause there, and so your nervous system knows, “Oh, I don’t have to go closer for the moment. I get to enjoy this pogo stick,” just what comes up for you as you know that you can pause?

Pete Mockaitis

It just feels really nice. I mean, it’s like I’m having a childhood memory on my childhood home driveway with my brother pogo-sticking, realizing you could take off the suction, the little rubber part on the bottom, and like dent the pavement, “We really shouldn’t do that. Let’s put it back on.”

Rachel Rider

See, that’s what we’re looking for that laugh and the twinkle in your eye. And so, I invite you, I’m curious about this, we’re going to slow it really down. So, as you get off the pogo stick, and you had that twinkle and lightness in your eye, and you’re moving very slowly towards the computer, is there any thoughts or feelings that arise?

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I mean, I guess I still don’t want to do it as I get closer to the reality. It’s almost like the pogo-sticking is fading out and the doing is fading back in.

Rachel Rider

And what’s under the not wanting to do? Like, what’s the feeling as you slowly, very slowly move towards the computer?

Pete Mockaitis

That this is less fun than pogo-sticking.

Rachel Rider

Yeah. And underneath that? Like, what’s the blech, a kind of word to it, or feeling underneath it?

Pete Mockaitis

I guess I just sort of think that I should have found a better system, and team, and process outsource package to have handled this by now and years ago, and I feel a little negligent.

Rachel Rider

Okay. So, now we’re understanding the dread. So, what we did, like, look at that insight that arose, “Oh, I have a little judgment around myself about this, and it probably could be done better so I don’t have to deal with this.” How does that shift the experience of dread?

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I guess my first thought is like, “All right. Well, this will be the last time I handle this. Let’s adopt and mean it well, and be ready to pass it on off.”

Rachel Rider

Yes. How incredible is that, that insight about, “That’s why I don’t like the taxes?” And all we did, we started with the body and the nervous system.

Pete Mockaitis

That is pretty cool. It is a very different pathway, both in terms of feelings and thoughts, insights that pop up than, “Come on, let’s cue the Rocky montage music, and let’s power through.”

Rachel Rider

Exactly. And that’s the premise of my work. What we, literally, witnessed, insight bubble up when the body had space to play. When the body has space to look and examine without meaning-making, that’s when insight bubbles up, that’s when action can happen. Look at the insight, you’re like, “Yeah, I’m not doing this again.” And think just how powerfully that translates to the professional world, taxes in the professional world.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, certainly, yeah, in terms of lots of stuff, lots of better ways to do stuff just kind of never gets the chance to bubble up because we kind of shove it aside or whatever.

Rachel Rider

Yeah, and there’s one thing I wanted to say, I didn’t say it while we were kind of in it, but you said something that is such a profound indicator that it’s a great time to go to the body, which is, “My mind knows this isn’t a big deal,” or, “My mind knows. Like, my mind knows something that my body doesn’t. My body’s not paying attention. We are misaligned here and the body is more in charge.” That is a great place to know, “Ooh, this is when I go to the body.” It’s like, “I know I shouldn’t be so pissed off about this small thing, and yet I am losing my mind. I can’t focus on anything else.” That’s a great time to go to the body.

Pete Mockaitis

Yes. Okay. Well, thank you for going deep in there with us. So, that’s a way it gets done. Tell us, in your book, you’ve got 16 snazzy chapters, and I’m curious to hear how we incorporate this kind of bodily approach to the leadership action in terms of, you got a chapter on reading the room, and then disrupting the patterns. Can you share with us how does this all kind of come together?

Rachel Rider

And so, at the highest levels of leadership, I have found that, in the work I’ve done with the hundreds of leaders, maybe thousands I think at this point I’ve coached, is when you run companies, when you’re in the senior executive team, your relationships are your deliverables. It is not about checking the box anymore. And that also means that you need to be having successful relationships with folks, which means you have to be having a successful relationship with yourself.

And so, this book is really understanding your inner world. It’s exactly what we’ve just done here. So, there are case studies in the book about a client who has really sharp elbows. She does so because she has such a high standard, but it’s really alienating people, and it means people are working around her. And so, the work we did on, “Where is that visceral impulse coming from within her?”

In the beginning of our work together, she could not handle not saying something critical, even when she was celebrating someone, because she wanted them to do better. And so, our work was, “Okay, where is this living within you? What makes it so impossible for you to not share?” And what she really wanted was to foster connection with people and make them do better, be inspired to do better.

And so, through our work together, she was realizing, “Oh, if that’s what I want, and that’s not what I’m getting, how do I work within my body so it comes from a visceral place, the celebration, it comes from a visceral place, the feedback?” And so, there are a lot of different case studies in the book that talk about, “How do you try translate understanding your inner world to showing up differently, concretely?”

Pete Mockaitis

And so, we went through one pathway by which that can be done. Any other pro tips?

Rachel Rider

So, I’m a big fan of a holistic approach. In our work at MettaWorks, we do mind, body, and spirit work. First, your brain needs to be on board, okay? We do not want to dismiss the cognitive. Your brain needs to think something needs to change. Your brain needs to think, “This is not helpful.” Then, your body needs to be on board, “I want to do it differently.” But there’s also the spirit piece, there’s also a surrender to something bigger than you.

And I have no opinion about what that should be for you. And I do believe that we do better work when we feel connected to something bigger than us because there are some impossible situations that are only impossible if we feel alone as an individual in them. And the moment that we are able to sit back and connect spiritually, we get more clarity.

Pete Mockaitis

And so, when you say spiritually, you mean bigger purpose associated with “Why are we bothering to do the thing we’re doing?”

Rachel Rider

Yes, that’s a great way in. I would also say, “Do you connect with your ancestors? Do you feel connected to the wind outside?” Whatever feels like is bigger than this human form, whatever feels like the ethereal to you that you can connect with and feel held by, that that’s what I’m talking about. And I think that was a great example and a really good place to start of “What’s my bigger why? Why do I care? What am I doing here?”

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, Rachel, there’s a lot of good stuff here. Tell us, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Rachel Rider

I profoundly believe, and I have seen over and over again, that every one of my clients has it within them, and the work we do is simply decluttering in the inside so that they can listen deeply to who they are, what they need, and how they want to show up. And I think that is so vital to hold within you because it means then anything is possible for you.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, now could you tell us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Rachel Rider

Einstein’s “Everything is energy.” I truly believe that. And the more that you hold that everything is energy, the more there’s no immovable force. It’s just a deeper, denser energy that you need to work with.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Rachel Rider

Oh, shoot, I forget the name of it. But when light is observed, it changes behavior.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, that’s so trippy, man.

Rachel Rider

I know. So, I have been a longtime meditator, and so I love that study because it’s literally concrete evidence that when we pay attention, when we cultivate awareness of our mind, of our body, just the awareness changes everything.

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah. And a favorite book?

Rachel Rider

Gosh. I will default to my favorite, which is called Far From the Tree, and I forget who it’s by. I think it’s Solomon. And it’s about this man who did, I think, 10 years of studies with these children that are not identified as mainstream children in the world and the communities that they’re a part of. And it’s just so powerful and compelling. And I do believe it’s a leadership book, even though it talks about children.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Rachel Rider

Somatic experiencing body work.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite habit?

Rachel Rider

Meditating.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Rachel Rider

I would point them to three places. Our website, that’s MettaWorks.io, or Instagram, mettaworks, or LinkedIn, Rachel Rider.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Rachel Rider

Start paying attention. The moment you do, the light molecule changes.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Rachel, this is fun. I wish you many fun leadership moments.

Rachel Rider

Thank you, Pete. It was such a pleasure.

Mar 21
0

946: Why Most Projects Fail and What to Do About it with Kory Kogon

By | Podcasts | No Comments

 

Kory Kogon offers her practical guide for effective project management–even when you’re not the official project manager.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Why most projects fail
  2. Key questions to ask before starting any project 
  3. The five behaviors of successful unofficial project manager

About Kory

Kory Kogon is FranklinCovey’s vice president of Content and Senior Consultant. She is the Wall Street Journal bestselling co-author of The 5 Choices: The Path to Extraordinary Productivity, and has appeared as an expert on TODAY, MSNBC’s Your Business, Forbes.com, Inc.com, and on FastCompany.com.

She is also one of the authors of the following FranklinCovey work sessions: The 5 Choices to Extraordinary Productivity®, Project Management Essentials for the Unofficial Project

Resources Mentioned

Kory Kogon Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Kory, welcome.

Kory Kogon
Thanks for having me, Pete. Great to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about your work, Project Management for the Unofficial Project Manager. I think a lot of people find themselves in that position of the unofficial project manager. Could you paint a picture for us for how that normally shows up at work?

Kory Kogon
Well, in today’s world, we’re knowledge workers, we’re paid to think, to innovate, to create, and execute. And when it really comes down to it, we are making things, things that have a beginning and an end. And as knowledge workers, we just quietly slip into the role of unofficial project managers without the training that official project managers would get. And people just use their talents and skills to push through when there’s actually a better way.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, can you paint a picture for us in terms of how well is that working for us so far, in terms of the state of unofficial project management at work?

Kory Kogon
Well, the state of it is that, generally, 65% of projects fail, and that can include official and unofficial project managers. But more down to earth and real is that wherever I go around the world, or the country, and speak with groups on Zoom or in person, when you ask them why projects fail, they always give the same reasons, that there’s unclear expectations, that there’s no clear communication, that they don’t have the right people in the right roles, that there’s scope creep. It goes on and on and on to this very similar list all the time, everywhere.

And, again, it’s because we’re trying to get projects done by the seat of our pants, and it’s really unfortunate because when we become scarred unofficial project managers, because we all go into these projects sort of expecting those bad outcomes, and so from an engagement point of view, where are we when it comes to projects? So, that’s a little bit of the landscape that that we need to push through. And like I said before, there’s just a better way when people become aware of just the organic nature of us being unofficial project managers.

Pete Mockaitis
And this 65% figure, I really want to dig into that because, I mean, how precisely are we defining a project has failed?

Kory Kogon
You know, it could be it was off budget or it didn’t meet its scope. So, again, it’s a wide berth to say that, you know, to pose that number. I don’t have the empirical data for you exactly, but it’s an estimate out there.

Pete Mockaitis
I guess what I was thinking is like, if the project is to start a profitable business, I would expect, a vast majority of the, in fact, would fail. Although, if the project is to, you know – why is this so hard to think of an example? – redesign our loan approval process is the project. That feels very much like, “Okay, that’s within the control of an organization to do that.”

So, you’re not aware if it’s like entrepreneurial, sort of risky market-facing factors are at play within the 65% figure, or it’s pretty much, no, it’s just, this could have been done, but it didn’t happen because of those very ordinary means by which things fall apart?

Kory Kogon
No, I think it’s a little bit of both. There are all kinds of forces that affect everything so it’s a little bit of both. And those outside forces might be constants that we need to deal with. So, I think there’s a lot in there. I don’t want to say, “Oh, well, you know, if people clarified expectations, it would be 100%.” It’s very rare to even get to 100%. So, even if we took 65 and reduce that to 40 or 30, the return on investment to anybody would be amazing.

Even an entrepreneur starting a business and gets slowed down because things aren’t progressing as fast, so they couldn’t get the money fast enough. Or the building, I mean think about constructing a building for a business and when it gets slowed down, so even if we don’t into that number a little bit, regardless of the factors, the return on investment is pretty huge.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, then, I’d love to get your perspective on, from all your research and work here, what is the top thing that makes a huge difference and yet is done so infrequently in terms of ensuring project success?

Kory Kogon
The top thing, again not empirically, but just from our experience and what we hear a lot is unclarified expectations. And, again, you could be running the gamut of, “Is this a solo entrepreneur starting a business that has this project in their mind so they’re clear on their own expectations?” But even then, I can see traps along the way versus a 10,000-person organization where they’re working on projects and have big key stakeholders at the executive level, and everybody’s pulling in a different direction.

But I will say, clarified expectations. So, even an entrepreneur who is starting a business, if they are like, “Well, maybe we should do it this way,” or “Maybe we should do it that way,” and they don’t come to clarity to say, “Okay, we’ve got this clarity. Now let’s execute,” it really will step them back. So, I would say that is one of the biggest ones out there around clarifying the expectations or clarifying the scope of the project, first and foremost, is probably key.

I’ve also seen in some of the bigger organizations very painful scenarios of project managers trying to jockey the politics, and this key stakeholder wants this, and the other one wants that, and trying to do a project without that clarity, and it’ll kill you in the end.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Kory, it sounds like you’ve got a story in mind. Please, tell us a dastardly tale of unclarified expectations and what went awry.

Kory Kogon
Well, one story, one person that I talked to, it was just really amazing. She was talking about the project that they were working on, and it was a big team of people, and they’re four months into spending a ton on it, and a stakeholder showed up, and said, “No, no, that’s not the direction. We need to go in this direction,” and that person had a lot of influence, and they had to stop the whole project.

And once you stop a project like that, they had people that left the organization because of that, and trying to find the money to redo all of it just brought everything to a standstill. But it was more, you sort of had to be there, the pain on this woman’s face as she was telling this story of failure, and I think also, it’s not just that they didn’t clarify expectations.

It’s that how it makes people feel when, because no matter what, even though it was an outside force, if you will, to change something, all the good work that this person and the teams had done to get there suddenly went away, and it makes you feel like you don’t know what you’re doing, and there’s nothing worse than people feel like they don’t know what they’re doing, and I think that leads to shame, which is another terrible thing that people have to deal with.

So, the cost is not just financial. It’s social, emotional, all from this idea of, “Can we just get clear up front on what this project is?” And if we’re all clear, in this new world of agility, as we go, we’ll get feedback, we’ll do it in a measured modern kind of way, so we make the project better and better, to apply and supply the value that it was meant to supply from the beginning.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And what are some of your favorite best practices, or key questions, or means by which we can get outstanding clarity right from the get-go?

Kory Kogon
So, the first thing is to understand you do need to ask questions. It’s amazing to me, Pete, how many people will say to me, “Well, I’m afraid to ask questions because they’re going to think I’m stupid or something, that I don’t know my job.” I’ve been in executive leadership for many years. If you don’t come and ask me questions about a project that I’m involved with, you’re making a big mistake because then you’re trying to read my mind, and I will come to you later and say, “Well, wait a minute, what about this?”

So, best you come to me and ask questions and don’t worry that I’m going to look at you and think you’re not smart. That’s totally not true. So, that’s number one, is get that, “ I do need to ask questions of key stakeholders.” The second thing is, when you go to ask questions, is that you go with a clear outcome of the project. So, it’s not, “Hey, well, you know, senior leadership says it’s important, Kory, so I need you to tell me what you want.” I don’t have time for that.

But if you came to me and said, “Listen, from what I know so far, that this is going to increase our bottom line by 10%, or it’s going to engage our people in a way they haven’t been engaged before, so we cut retention,” now we’re talking, now I have some concrete things that I can go on, so I will make the time to listen to your questions.

And so, the last thing I’ll say on questions is make sure you come prepared with a couple of really good – we call this the question funnel – open questions, meaning, “So, tell me, based on what we know, why is this project important to you?” Detailed questions, so that when somebody says, “Well, it’s important because senior leadership said so,” that instead of like, “Okay, fine,” knowing that’s not a real answer, we can ask a detailed question of, “So, what does important mean to you? What does that mean to the organization?” and you drill into it.

And then a closed question, meaning confirm what you heard. When somebody says, “Well, I think we’re going to put $100,000 towards the budget.” Don’t run off and go, “Yay, we have $100,000.” You want to confirm it and say, “So, you said $100,000. Are we final on that? Do we need some meeting on that? What’s the next step to make sure that that’s the budget?” So, we close it up and get confirmation.

So, those three, the question funnel, in addition to make sure you don’t feel that it’s silly asking questions, and having a good outcome so somebody pays attention to you, and then these questions, you’ll be really set to clarify expectations.

Pete Mockaitis
I like the visual of a funnel there in terms of open at the top, it makes sense at the beginning that we can be a little more exploratory, broad, expansive, make sure we don’t constrict too early. And then, yes, at the end, making sure that we’ve got what we need, those key bits of finality and closure. Can you share with us any particular specific questions that you have found often open up oceans of clarity when folks take the boldness to go ahead and put them forward?

Kory Kogon
Well, it depends on the situation. I don’t know if there’s any magic bullet, and one that I said before, knowing what we know about the project, “How do you see its importance to our team, to the organization?” That, I think, is a main question. One of the questions that I said to you before, this idea of confirmation to knock out assumptions, which are killing a lot of organizations, because everybody assumes they know what somebody else is thinking.

And so, just every step of the way, without being obnoxious, “So, is that how we want to move forward? Is that how you want me to write that down?” So, just really making sure we have the confirmation. And any question that will lead to a more measurable outcome. So again, in that detailed question, “But what will success look like for us?” So, I should be able to answer that and other people should be able to answer that for you. If we’re doing an event to improve customer satisfaction, how will we measure the outcomes of this? That is key to an agile project management world we live in.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I think that’s huge in terms of moving past fuzzy language to concrete language, like, “We really want to delight our customers,” or, “We want to grow. We want this to be a big opportunity,” is okay. So, is any positive incremental amount growth, and thusly we get to celebrate victory, and what did you mean by a lot, “Oh, wow, your ‘a lot’ is way, way bigger than my ‘a lot’ assumption”? And so, driving to that extra level of confirmation can really be quite eye-opening.

Kory Kogon
It can, and this whole notion of squeezing out assumptions. So, I think a key principle for project management, which is a little bit out of, not left field, but I think will be of interest to everybody, is this notion that words are only the code by which I’m describing the picture in my mind. And so, when somebody says, to your point, Pete, “Well, make sure this is done in a quality way.” “Okay, boss, got it,” and off I go, and I do things in what I think is a quality way, and I come back and show Pete, and Pete’s like, “What the heck is that? That’s not what I meant.”

But the word quality goes back to those detailed questions. The word quality means something different in your mind than it does in my mind. And as a good project manager, if I understand that principle around language, quality, trust, any words you can think of, feast, any kind of word, we call it a fat word, because there are so many different meanings that it’s imperative that people ask questions to make sure we are on the same wavelength, “What do you mean by quality?” And you continue to drill down until you feel, without being obnoxious, but until you feel like you’re on the same wavelength with the person you’re talking to. That’s a life lesson, not just a project management lesson.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, certainly.

Kory Kogon
As I know from my own home.

Pete Mockaitis
And what’s funny is the word quality, it seems like, “Of course, we all like quality,” but that could actually be pretty dangerous. Like, Kory, if you tell me, you want something to be the high quality, I mean, watch out, because I’m thinking, “Okay, high quality means this is the best in the world in its category, or at least top 1%. Therefore, it’s probably going to take dozens or hundreds of hours to execute.” It’s like, “Oh no, no, no! When I said quality, I don’t want you to go deep into the land of obsessive, hardcore craftsmanship. I just mean it needs to not break.” It’s like, “Oh, okay, quality.” I’m glad I asked.

Kory Kogon
Yeah, exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Alrighty. Well, so that’s one huge piece of failure there, is unclarified expectations, and we fix that by clarifying, asking a lot of questions, being bold, getting super clear. What is another major cause of failure and the antidote?

Kory Kogon
Well, I’ll give you sort of this overarching mindset that we say that project success equals value, plus people, plus process. And without getting into the details, the Project Management Institute updated their standard to one that more resembled the agile world, which means, “Are we bringing full value to the customer? And how are we being agile along the way to get there?”

So, we actually updated our mindset from people plus process equals project success, to value plus people, plus process, equals project success. So, to your question, the people part and the leadership part, much failure comes because project managers, in some cases, never intended to be leaders. In some organizations, they chose a technical track or a genius track, not a leadership development track, and a lot of people just don’t get it that people do the work. So, “Am I somebody that is inspiring people to want to play on my team and will play to win?”

So, with that, there are five behaviors. We said, out of all the leadership stuff out there, because if you think about it, Pete, when you think about the failure list – lack of clear expectations, lack of communication, wrong people in the wrong job, scope creep, all of that stuff – and then we’re saying, “Okay, yippee, we have this project to do,” and the people that are doing it are living inside that failure list unless a leader is its own failure, unless a leader knows how to pull them out of that, using a good process, and inspiring people to want to give their best.

And so, out of all the leadership behaviors out there, all the leadership development that people can take, we’ve narrowed it down and said, “You know what? For this, for now, if they just master five behaviors, that will go a long way to inspiring their team to want to do the work and want to win.” And those behaviors are: demonstrate respect, listen first, clarify expectations, extend trust, and practice accountability. And those five behaviors come from what we call the 13 Behaviors of High Trust Leaders. So, just those five.

And I always say our parents taught us to do those things, right? And when you’re under pressure, listen, I’ve been in leadership for many years. I’m born and raised in New York City. You probably can tell from my accent. I move fast and hard, and my default nature is just, “Let’s go get them.” And under pressure, not that I don’t want to respect people, but I have to be really careful, because my demeanor, I live in Arizona, my demeanor can be one that’s really to the point and a little gruff from time to time, and people could feel like I’m not respecting them.

So, when I’m under pressure of a big project, I really need to take a deep breath and think about it. Listening first also can go out of the window when you are under pressure. It’s like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I just need you to do it the way I said so,” which is I always say it’s so much easier to be a bad leader than a good one because I have to really think about being good, kind of thing.

So, all of these, clarifying expectations, for the team member, not just the project, but it’s not just, “Pete, just do this task with blinders on.” It’s, “Pete, let me explain. For you to do this task means that it’s the piece of the puzzle that’s going to make sure this all happens.” Like, “Whoa, okay, now I get what my task is as a contribution, not just a thing to do.”

Extend trust. People struggle with delegation. You got to let the team members do the work. And then practice accountability. If I am not a model of accountability before I hold you accountable, and if I let you show up late three days in a row, and the team sees that there’s no accountability, everything’s going to fall apart. So, those five behaviors are key to a project manager leading a project and staying off some of the failure list.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now you also mentioned you’ve got five project phases: the scope, plan, engage, track, adapt, and close. Can you walk us through those and some of the best practices there? It sounds like we got a little bit of goodness on the scope side. Any more you’d add to that?

Kory Kogon
I would. A key thing that people struggle with that they should be aware of, I mentioned, well, first of all, is how you get access to stakeholders, and I explained a little bit about that before, is you’ve got to have the right story to make sure people will make time for you. But then the other thing in scoping is making sure that you are able to get key stakeholders on the same page. That when they have differing opinions, are you good enough using those behaviors to get them in a room and help negotiate getting clarity on the scope? So that’s a key thing as well.

And I’ll also say within that first one around scoping is identifying key stakeholders. And it’s interesting because we give a little thinking tool called the key stakeholder dance, which is, “Who makes the decisions? Who has the authority? Who has the need?” Those are all the signers. The last two, C and E, is, “Who has the connection? And who is the energy?” And those are not signers. Those are people, like connections, I have people out in the field that they have so much influence in the organization that when I have somebody with negative energy or there’s politics, I can call them to the table and they can help smooth things over.

So, a lot of times that’s a big takeaway for people to really go back and revisit their key stakeholder list, and say, “Did I forget those people?” Because I usually go for just the signers and the ones we know. So, that’s scope. In plan, there’s really two key things to do. One is, “How do I identify and get my arms around risk?” so risk management. And people are working on a lot of projects at the same time. So, if we identify 10 or 12 risks, can we manage a million things? So, how do we prioritize risks and just focus on the ones that are really key?

And the second part of plan is the project plan, which is always everybody’s favorite part because they just tremble at the idea of a Gantt chart. And the interesting thing is it becomes this great visual scoreboard that once you know some project management principles, you’d be amazed at how easy a Gantt chart can be and how strategic it can become to your entire project and your team. So, that’s a little bit about a plan.

Scope and plan together, make up, “I’m ready to go, and now we just need to execute.” So, I’ll pause there, see if you have any questions.

Pete Mockaitis
Sure thing. So, with Gannt charts, for those who are not familiar, can you describe this life-changing magic and what makes it so amazing?

Kory Kogon
Yeah, and people will say, “Kory, get a life. You get so excited about a Gantt chart.” And sometimes they’ll say, “Demystify success for the unofficial project manager,” because it is a demystification. So, a lot of people, when we ask them, what do they used to you know plan a project or to track it, and most times, and we do poll after poll after poll the, answer always is in the majority, Excel. And then some people are using some things like Monday.com. I mean, there’s a bunch of things out there, Google Sheets and all that kind of stuff.

And they use Excel, and it’s interesting because the Gantt chart program, so think, and I don’t represent them, Microsoft Project or Smartsheet on the Google side, and I have no allegiance to any of them, but essentially, they are Excel and project management principles included. So, here’s the big demystification, which I love, is when you understand the concept of dependencies, that one task must get done before the other task gets started, as an example, and you tie those things together, the software will allow you to tie those things together, and you learn the difference between work hours and duration.

So, work hours is, “Oh, yes, Pete, I can get that list to you, or the customer list together, in four hours, no problem.” Really? You have seven other projects going on, your team is busy, also somebody’s on PTO, and really the duration is two or three days to get those four hours of work done. So, if you input dependencies and duration in your task list, then you’re going to end up with what’s called the critical path. Another terrifying term to so many people.

The critical path is a wonderful thing. The critical path will light up in a Gantt chart and show you the shortest amount of time it’s going to take to get those tasks done that must be done on exactly the way you have them in order to finish the project right here. It lights up. So, suddenly, you have this magical strategic tool that shows you how this project needs to go, and how you might need to put your best people on critical path items because they got to be done right then and there.

So, it’s not for the faint of heart and it’s not for like brand-new people training. You want to make sure that you have the right people on critical path items. And if a critical path item is in danger, it allows you to think about, “Okay, Mary, you know what? You’re on a task that isn’t so critical. Can you help Pete out because we really got to get this done?” So, it just turns an Excel spreadsheet into a magical strategic project management tool that’s not as hard as everybody thinks.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, are you saying that you’d recommend, if you’re using Excel, try Project or something else? Or are you saying, “Get the magical plugins that make Excel do this for you right away”?

Kory Kogon
I’m not that good to know if Excel has the plugins, but I would say, and we say in our courses too, we’re not here to make experts of Gantt charts. And we’ll say it in the book as well, give it a try. So maybe it’s Microsoft Project, there’s a lot of online programs out there. Give something a try. Take a deep breath. Learn those principles, and then see how it works for you.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think a cool thing to highlight in terms of those principles and the notion of the critical path is that there are some activities that we can do serially. Okay, not serially, but parallelly. We could do some things at the same time, and it’s all good. Team A is working on some marketing stuff, which they can do before Team B does the engineering to make the thing actually exist. That’s possible. We don’t have to wait until we could actually see it and touch the thing in order to start getting some marketing things together.

However, when it comes to photographing the thing, it needs to exist first in order for it to be honestly photographed. And so, that is how you really start to see that differentiation between, “Are things done in parallel or serially?” and then the stack of things that are dependent on the prior things extend outward horizontally to become the critical path on a chart. And so, it really is pretty eye-opening. And as you go, “Oh, well, we can get started on all these things right now, but we absolutely cannot start this until that’s done, so we really, really, really got to make sure that this piece doesn’t get delayed here.”

Kory Kogon
A lot of times we just intuitively think about that as unofficial process, “Oh, well, you know, yeah, we need to do that, but we’ll check with them, and we’ll probably get that on Tuesday.” This makes it very specific. And you said it beautifully, things can work in parallel and these dependencies are finish to start, start to finish. So, there’s a few different ones in there that link them together.

I always like to talk about Thanksgiving in the United States dinner is turkey, you know, turkey dinner. And when you think about cooking, how all that works, you sort of intuitively know, “Well, I need to put the turkey in four hours ahead, but the potatoes need to go in ten minutes before the turkey is ready.” So, it’s very similar. We’ve been doing it intuitively, but when we get it down into a chart and let the chart help us manage, it’s really amazing.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly, and then you start to have some fun thinking about the resources and the true bottlenecks, and it’s like, “Oh, well, this doesn’t even need the oven at all, so easy-peasy. I’ll just use the microwave for that, and away we go.” Okay. Well, so now let’s hear about the engage.

Kory Kogon
Well, that takes us right back to the people part because this is where, if we’ve got scope and plan, and we want to engage, this is where we need to help our people do their work and hold them accountable, so we say inspire shared accountability. And so, if you think about if we’ve got a good, or whatever you’re using, it should be a visual scoreboard, much easier in this day and age because everybody can go online and see what’s what, whether you’re working remote, or hybrid, or whatever. So, really good versus having to bring a chart into a room.

So, everybody has visibility into my well-done, whether it’s a Gantt chart, or however you end up doing it, and what we recommend, and we’re very famous for this at Franklin Covey, is what we call a team accountability session, because people are already rolling their eyes, saying, “Of course, you’re going to tell me to do another meeting.” We work our meetings and our accountability, we like to say, from the bottom up. That this is not about the leader holding the team accountable. It’s about the team wanting to play to win.

So, this team accountability session is maybe a once-a-week meeting, that is not a staff meeting, it’s not an operations meeting. All it is, it’s like, forgive me, using a sports analogy, but like a sports huddle. The team gets together and everybody commits to, “This is exactly what I’m doing this week to make sure this project stays on target.” And the job of the leader in that meeting is to only, what we call, clear the path.

So, everybody comes to this very short 15-minute meeting, of course, depends on how many people you’ve got on the team. Everybody knows where they are, and they are reporting out, “Hey, last week, I said I was going to do this thing, got it, done, moving on. Next week, I have a million things to do, but here’s the one thing I’m going to do to make sure this project stays on task,” and the project manager is in the background clearing the path, “You know what? I can’t get through to facilities, they’re not answering my calls. I can’t get my thing done to get the parking set up.” And so, great, my job as a leader, I’m going to call facilities so you have a clear path to be able to do that, and the meeting is over.

And that is just, so it’s the people are making the commitments to what they’re going to do to keep that project on track, not the leader, and so it creates this engagement by the team and they high-five and they go out. That’s sort of the cadence of accountability that we do. Doesn’t always go perfectly. Lots of times people come to the meeting, “I didn’t get to it.” So, what the leader has to really learn is, “How do I tell Pete? He didn’t do his commitments, and he just announced it in the meeting, how do I let the team know that I’m holding him accountable without embarrassing him in front of everybody else, and turning the team against me at the same time?”
So, there’s a lot of learning that goes into that, and also, “How do I, if somebody is chronic, where they haven’t shown up for three weeks, how do I have a performance conversation with them to understand what’s going on and set it right?” So, the pathway is to engage through this bottom-up team accountability. And I say bottom lovingly, meaning the people who are doing the work get to speak and make the commitments, the leader is behind them. And then, “How do I keep things going because something’s going to give because we’re not perfect?”

Pete Mockaitis
And, Kory, I’d love it for you to give us a demonstration. Indeed, let’s say I show up and I didn’t do the thing, how does one respond in that artful way that you described that checks all the boxes you’re looking to accomplish there?

Kory Kogon
It’s a great question, and I’ll do it with you. So, go ahead, tell me you didn’t do something.

Pete Mockaitis
“Oh, yeah, sorry, no, I didn’t quite finish that one up.”

Kory Kogon
“Thanks, Pete, for letting us know. Can you tell us a little bit about what went…? I’m sure we’re all so busy. What happened?”

Pete Mockaitis
“Yeah, that’s the thing. There’s just been a whole lot going on in a lot of directions, and, yeah, unfortunately, I just didn’t get to that.”

Kory Kogon
“Okay. Well, I get that and, again, I know, I can tell it’s on your face, too, how crazed everybody is. We’re all busy. You made that commitment last week. So, what is it? Is there anything that we can do to help you? Because now we have that commitment and we need your commitment for next week. So, what can I do to help you to make sure that we hit our commitments by the time we come back next week?”

Pete Mockaitis
“Well, yeah, I appreciate the question. I guess it’s just really tricky with my boy, my youngest kid just isn’t sleeping well, and so then the rest of us aren’t sleeping well. And then, I don’t know about you, when I don’t get the sleep, I’m kind of dumber and slower in everything I try to do on a given day. So, I don’t…it’s probably not practical for anyone to show up and tend to the children in my home. So, yeah, I’m kind of drawing a blank.”

Kory Kogon
“Yeah, it sounds a little frustrating. Everybody in this room is really nodding. Everybody has kids. Well, here’s what I would suggest so we don’t hold everybody up. How about you and I take this offline and then we’ll figure something out. Does that sound okay?”

Pete Mockaitis
“Oh, sure thing.”

Kory Kogon
“Okay.” So, if I had gone any further with you, the tension would really rise. Somebody might have said, “Well, you know, I had these three other projects and I couldn’t get to it, and you made the commitment.” So, somebody might have said, “Well, you know what, I couldn’t get to it yesterday. I’ll get to it tomorrow. And here’s my commitment for next week. I’m going to keep it really light, but I can get this done to make sure that…” and we would agree and go on.

But you pushed me to the second part, which is we need to have a performance conversation offline because, had I gone any further with you, like I said, the tension was rising in the room, and it starts to become embarrassing for everybody else.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and they don’t need to hear about you and me troubleshooting a sleeping…

Kory Kogon
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
In terms of just like respectful of their time. But I really do appreciate how you made it clear. And it wasn’t super ominous, like, “You’re going to get a talking to by the principal.” But it was just clear, it’s like, “Okay, that’s not just going to get swept under the rug. Something is going to be done to address that,” and so the team gets that memo. And so, if someone was new, it’s like, “Oh, duly noted, not getting to it doesn’t work here.”

Kory Kogon
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
“Okay, message received.”

Kory Kogon
That is the key, that when you do this well and don’t lose the respect of the team, like if it had gone further and we took the gloves off, that’s bad because what will happen is just group dynamics. The group will defend you more than the leader, like, “I can’t believe she’s doing that to Pete here,” that kind of thing. But what does happen, like you said, “I got the memo.”

And that’s the key, is by handling it when it happens somehow, what people are sitting there doing is exactly what you said, they’re like, “Okay, I am never, ever, ever, ever going to put myself in that position of not coming to this meeting without my commitments done,” or “I’m going to let Kory know beforehand so we can work it out.” And that’s the key, that’s accountability. That’s a great thing where people are thinking it up themselves instead of dropping the hammer on them, like, “You will do your stuff,” kind of thing.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think that’s powerful, is that you didn’t need to shout, or be mean, or do name calling, or, like frowny faces. You didn’t have to do any sort of a toxic behavior for it to feel plenty uncomfortable such that I wouldn’t want to do that again. Like, people love to complain about their bosses, nor do I think I could be like, “Can you believe what Kory said to me?” It’s like, “I kind of can. Like, that’s seems kind of like a reasonable response from a leader, even though it sucked for you. Sorry you had to go through that.”

Kory Kogon
Right. And even when you said no frowny face, for me, some of my best friends, I’ll be sitting with them and I’ll get a nudge, and they’ll say, “Talk to your face,” because I could be showing my hand on my face. This whole thing around leadership, and even with these five behaviors, leadership is a choice. And project management, again, we didn’t choose to be people leaders, but if you’re a project manager, you’re leading people, and you have to talk to your face, and you have to be very measured about this and very self-aware, and emotionally intelligent in dealing with people and getting things done.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Well, so track, adapt, and close, we might do the quicker version of those.

Kory Kogon
We can, because if you get the first two groups done well, and we’re engaging, then track and adapt, we’ve been doing it all along. Track and adapt is really about the whole agile movement that we did have a scope, not that we want scope creep, but are we building in feedback loops, really listening to people to make sure that we are delivering value on the project? Market forces change, things change out there, and so track and adapt as a team. Do we have the agility to be able to do that? As a leader, am I leading my people in the right way around that?

Close is always so interesting because if you talk to people, one of the things they’ll say is, “Do you have a bunch of projects that never end?” And people will laugh and say, “Ugh, all the time.” So, we got to finish them because it’s easy to start them, hard to finish them. But we finish them and the most important thing, again, remember we want an engaged team, is to have that closing meeting. When I get that meeting notice, I roll my eyes, like, “Ugh, the closing meeting.”

And then when I’m in it, I’m like, “I’m glad we did it,” because the team gets recognized, the key stakeholders are there, and it’s a place where people can share a retrospective, “What went well? What didn’t?” people can voice their concerns, we can celebrate people, and it really sets people up to be even more engaged for the next project. So, that’s track and adapt and close.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, tell me, Kory, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Kory Kogon
I think what I said, this is not for the faint of heart but it can be done. And whether you are a solo project manager, these principles are in play. Or, if you’re leading a group in a large organization, the same things apply when you put your mind to it. So, I think that’s a final statement on that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Kory Kogon
Yes, I do have a quote, and that quote is by Dr. Stephen Covey, and it goes to everything that we’ve been saying. And what he said is that, “Fast is slow, and slow is fast.” And I really get on board with that in so many ways as a leader when it comes to projects, when it comes to managing home life, and 30 years in a relationship. Fast is slow. Slow is fast.

If you go too fast on a project, you’re going to pay the price at the end. If you go too fast as a leader trying to get work done and don’t take care of the people, it’s going to slow you down at the end. If you slow down, because I’m sure people on this call, Pete, also were going, “Hey, I don’t have time to scope and I don’t have time to go find other key stakeholders and all of that,” but we call it front loading, and so if you slow down to do the work up front, it’ll speed things up in the end. So that’s my favorite quote.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Kory Kogon
I’m a fan of Dr. David Rock, who is the founder of the NeuroLeadership Institute, for many years, and I was lucky enough to be able to get a certificate of NeuroLeadership Foundations. So, I love following his work because it’s very, obviously, research-based and has everything to do with how the brain works. And in this world of knowledge work, we have to optimize our brain.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool?

Kory Kogon
A favorite tool, I think it’s interesting, here’s my old school-ness – tables in Word.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

Kory Kogon
That is helpful to me because I write so much, and it’s always interesting when I see people write text in Excel, but a table for me is really good. And Notion now is a favorite tool of mine as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Kory Kogon
A favorite book is actually Quiet by Susan Cain, because I am a raging introvert.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Kory Kogon
My favorite habit is walking. I like to walk. Again, going back to the brain, that I work really hard, like so many people do, and continuously, and that is not a good thing, even in the day-to-day. You need to take breaks, and that break will increase your productivity by a certain amount. So, when I take a break, I like to go out and walk, and on the weekends, I live in the desert, so it’s a great habit to help me think. And a lot of times, I’ll come in my office, look at my computer, read something, and then go take a walk to let it synthesize.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Kory Kogon
We would point them to, you know, you can get the updated version of Project Management for the Unofficial Project Manager at any of the booksellers, Amazon, etc. You can find me on LinkedIn, and you can go to www.franklincovey.com to see this and all of the other things that we have up there on people development.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be honest about their jobs?

Kory Kogon
Remember that it’s about the people, number one, if you’re a leader; and number two, regardless of your role, that you have every opportunity to work in your circle of influence if you let go of some of the things that you can’t do anything about. It’s a tough time in the world right now and in the workplace, and so if you just really take a deep breath, count to 10, and focus on things that you have control over, you’ll find that it’s easier to get through the day-to-day with a pretty good contribution at the end.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Well, Kory, thank you. I wish you much luck in all your projects.

Kory Kogon
Well, thank you, and thanks for taking the time with me today, Pete.

Mar 18
0

945: How to Master Your Inner World and Flourish During Stress with Mawi Asgedom

By | Podcasts | No Comments

 

Mawi Asgedom shares four tools anyone can use to master their emotions and thrive.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Easy ways to keep your cool when things go awry
  2. The key investment that improves both happiness and success
  3. The powerful reframe that makes you feel unstoppable 

About Mawi

Mawi Asgedom is an award-winning author and expert on Social Emotional Learning (SEL) who has inspired over 1000 audiences with his uplifting speeches. 

Mawi founded Mawi Learning, an organization that unlocks human potential through evidence-based social emotional learning. Under Mawi’s leadership, Mawi Learning won the prestigious CODiE award for excellence and innovation in educational technology, and achieved CASEL-designation for evidence-based Social Emotional Learning.  

In 2023, Mawi launched his newest venture to help youth unlock their potential: Inner Heroes Universe, a media company that helps parents, educators, and therapists equip kids with crucial mental health and social emotional skills. 

Resources Mentioned

Thank you Sponsors!

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Mawi Asgedom Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis

Mawi, welcome back.

Mawi Asgedom

Oh, it is so good to be back, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis

This is crazy. So, you were episode number one. That was a wild eight years ago on the show. We’ve been talking in between, but nobody else has been listening.

Mawi Asgedom

Hey, it is incredible. It’s hard to believe. I still remember that first episode. And what is it 800 episodes later now? Like, you’ve been at it 900. How many done?

Pete Mockaitis

That’s right, 940-ish. Totally.

Mawi Asgedom

Oh, my goodness. Well, it’s been fun to see the growth. I’m proud of you. It’s so cool. I’ve got to ask you, Pete. You’ve talked to so many world-class people throughout the years here, what has been the one most important or interesting learning that you’ve gotten? Let’s flip the table on you, get you to answer a question right off the bat. When you think about all the journey that you had here, the whole journey.

Pete Mockaitis

If I boil it down to one thing, it’s caring.” It’s like, “Do you care? Do you care about your job, your colleagues, your teammates, your boss, your customers, your stakeholders, the investors? Do you care or do you not?” It’s like, “I just got to get through the day. I got to try to get through the day, get to the paycheck.”

Versus when you care, it opens everything in terms of, “Well, why do I spend the time to learn this thing? Oh, because I care. Why do I really try to listen and understand where someone’s coming from? Oh, because I care. Why do I invest in learning this stuff when it’s hard or it’s uncomfortable or it’s unpleasant? Oh, because I want to improve it.”

So, I think it just makes all the difference when folks are plugged into that versus just trying to get through it. And so, many of the tidbits of advice in terms of being likable or being persuasive, if you just keep drilling down to the why, why, why, it’s “Well, because this just matters to me.” And being awesome at your job is sometimes, quite literally, a matter of life and death, and other times you’re making an impact on a smaller level.

I was just chatting with someone who sells lots and custom homes for planned developments, and she says, “For me, family is the most important thing, and a house is one of the most important things for a family’s experience of family and togetherness, so it really matters to me.” And it shows in terms of how excellent she was at what she was doing. So, that’s my soapbox, is it really boils down to caring.

Mawi Asgedom

Thanks. So, you reminded me as you talked, Pete, I gave a keynote a long time ago, maybe 15 years ago, at Vernon Hills High School in Illinois. They’d all read my book, Of Beetles and Angels, and I gave what I thought was a great speech, and everybody was saying, like, “Wow, that was great.” And then one of the kids came up to me and said, “Hey, are you happy right now, because you don’t seem like you’re really happy up there?” I was like, “Wow, this kid could see right through me. I’ve been having like a bad streak, I hadn’t been doing self-care,” and I really wasn’t happy, and it showed.

And to your point, it’s a tough thing to hear from a kid after you’ve been paid to go present at their school, right? But then it forced you to hold up the mirror and answer the question that you just asked, really, like, “How much do you care right now?” And if you’re not where you need to be, in terms of your happiness, joy, energy, what you bring to the table, well, you need to step back and do something about it. And so, that is one the stories I’ll never forget from over the years.

Mawi Asgedom

Yeah, that’s great stuff. Well, it’s good to be back, Pete. Man, the world of podcasting has changed. It was pretty nascent still when you were doing it. It was pre-pandemic when we did the first episode a while back. And to see just how much it’s changed and grown. And to be a part of that must be pretty cool for you.

Pete Mockaitis

It has been, and new fun opportunities have opened up, and it’s been fun to explore those. And I want to talk about your new fun, cool thing, The Inner Hero’s Universe. It’s a series of books for children. So, first, we should address why are we talking about this on “How to Be Awesome at Your Job?” And it’s not just because we’re buddies. Even though we’re buddies, I don’t let people on here who don’t have something to say that sharpens the universal skills required to flourish at work. So lay it on us, you got a book series for kids. I can see how it’s useful for us grown folk, but tell us what are we doing here today?

Mawi Asgedom

Well, look, I just asked you what the sum wisdom was that you collected from people in your 900 interviews with all sorts of leaders and CEOs about how to be successful in the world of work, and it came down to caring, which is really something that we should pick up, start picking up very early when you’re three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, how you’re raised, and the things you’re taught. And there are enduring lessons about all these things.

And so, in any case, the whole Inner Heroes Universe actually has tremendous application, I would argue, for the world of work and just for the world of humanity, of just being adults in life, because it’s really rooted in psychology. And what I wanted to do, Pete, was, my first company focused on what’s called social-emotional learning, which is the way that kids learn about things, like mindset, relationships, goal-setting, all the personal development kind of stuff that you talk about on your podcast, but from an education and kids’ lens.

With the pandemic and the challenges that our country has had in the mental health area, I wanted to translate the world of psychology, that clinical world of psychology, into simple, easy tools that kids could use, and those same tools can be used by your listeners. And we can talk about what that means in each of the four areas of psychology that we started with, but think of us as the Marvel universe of the inner world.

Like that movie “Inside Out” that Pixar did, Pete, where it showed that young girl’s inner journey, but it only focused on emotions. We’re bringing the entire inner world to life through books, through media. And as we continue to talk, I’ll share how these things are so relevant in four of the initial areas of our inner universe.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, that’s so cool and it’s powerful. And I totally resonate with that. And we had Kwame Christian on the show, he’s got the podcast Negotiate Anything, and he’s so cool. I think in his book, Nobody Will Play With Me, he talks about our inner toddler. And I totally connect that notion, is that when I observe my own children, and they’re upset and yelling or crying because they can’t play a game that they wanted to play, and we see we’re not really above that.

I think we are experiencing the same kinds of feelings of disappointment, frustration, “Oh, I was really looking forward to that, and this is being taken from me, and I don’t…aargh, it’s not fair,” we’re feeling all those things, and we just dress it up a little bit more professionally in terms of like, “Oh, this is a disappointing change in schedule. Is there a way we could return to the original agenda?” And so, I think that there’s loads of truth to we have an inner toddler, and the messages that connect for children, and sometimes are among the most profoundly impactful to us at a deep, I don’t know, limbic or something, level of our human experience.

Mawi Asgedom

Exactly. I’ll give you one specific example of how that works. In education, in kid psychology, one of the things that we talk a lot about is regulation and dysregulation. And a good way to think about it is that, as human beings, whether we’re kids or adults, whether you’re a five-year-old or a CEO of a major company, when we go throughout our day, we all detect threats, right? Like our nervous system, our bodies, the way we evolved has learned to wonder, “Hey, is that a lion over there? Is that lion going to come for me? Or is that just a tree?” Like that kind of thing, right?

And so, we all respond differently when we see those threats. A lot of times when we’re a kid, what psychologists talk about is, the kid will go into like the red response or the blue response. That might be a kid who, all of a sudden, runs out of a room and the teacher doesn’t know where they went. Or a kid gets really angry and won’t let go of a point, like they keep arguing, they have low inflexibility, they will not stop talking about something.

I’m wondering if any of your listeners have ever worked with someone in their jobs that is inflexible, that gets attached to something, they won’t let it go, they just will not let it go, or when a conflict comes up, they just kind of like leave, they retreat, and they close off and they lose. What’s happening there is that we’re actually, like when you said limbic, we’re losing access to our thinking brain, and we’re going more in that survivor mode.

Well, with Inner Heroes Universe, what we do is we teach kids very basic, simple strategies to first reconnect with their bodies because it’s the body that’s dysregulated. We try to talk to someone logically, right, and say, “Oh, Johnny didn’t mean to say that to you,” or, “They didn’t mean to exclude you.” You’re using logic. What really needs to happen is we need to connect to the body first. We teach kids things like spider fingers. We teach kids things like box breathing.

And you know what? Some of the best leadership thinkers working today with adults and CEOs, like, I don’t know if you’ve had Shirzad from Positive Intelligence on your podcast.

Pete Mockaitis

Not yet.

Mawi Asgedom

You got to get him on. He’s one of my favorite thinkers. He sits down with CEOs, and he just tells them, “I want you to take 10 seconds and just feel each of your toes. Okay, just feel each one of your toes.” What’s he doing? He’s turning the thinking brain off for a second and reconnecting people to their bodies. And when you do that, you actually think at a higher level.

Like, for type A folks, like us and maybe many of your listeners, who are used to believing that logic and thought and what our conscious brain can do is the sum game of progress and how we should think about things, it can be difficult to accept that these breathing exercises, regulating our bodies, doing things like spider fingers, they’re as important for the 36-year-old, 56-year-old, as they are for the 6-year-old, and it helps us lower our stress. It helps us kind of moderate the temperature of our bodies and our thought. And that’s a very specific example, Pete, of where the world of kids is actually not that different from the world of adults.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, Mawi, I’ll totally second that, and it’s really fun. We talked about spider fingers. My daughter, Mary, has done this, and I actually was not familiar with spider fingers before reading this book. And if listeners have not heard of it, it is the practice of simply touching your thumb to each of your fingers in succession, “My thumb to my index, my thumb to my middle, my thumb to my ring finger, my thumb to my pinky.” And just doing that with some awareness of, “This is how my body, my fingers are feeling,” gets your brain in a different gear.

And if you’re feeling angry and you can’t go take a walk, you could do spider fingers anywhere and everywhere. And I had not heard of this before. I have found that it’s useful, and my daughter Mary has done it numerous times. So, it was really cool. It’s like these books are full of, like, superheroes, super villains, battling inside the kids’ minds, and yet I’m learning useful stuff here, so spider fingers. Well, Mawi, tell us, where do you even discover it? Like, I Googled it and it wasn’t all that common.

Mawi Asgedom

Yeah. So, the way I discovered it is, so with Inner Heroes Universe, I hired a team of mental health experts that I work with very closely, and my criteria for them was they have to sit down with hundreds of kids every week – like I didn’t want someone who wrote research papers off in some university, no offense to those folks who are listening, but they weren’t grounded in the reality of what kids experience every day.

And what my mental health experts told us is, the kids they see, they’re having problems because someone is messing with them and they can’t control their reaction to that, and they’re getting in a lot of trouble in school. Or, they’re having problems where they’re not able to pay attention and their mind is wandering a lot, and they’re getting in trouble for that. Or, they’re having deep anxiety and they’re afraid to go to school for any of a number of reasons.

And so, the spider fingers were, actually, created by one of my mental health experts, a woman named Carrie, came up with it, and my son uses it. I use it. But it’s really like, “How do we translate all these clinical tools that you have to go to a counselor to get them, typically, or read a dense book on mental health? And how do we translate them and make them accessible for everybody using like art?” So, like this example of a book. Here are some art with the characters and making it interesting and fun.

Pete, let me give probably my most stunning example of regulation from my career, okay?

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, please. All right.

Mawi Asgedom

I was working on the most important deal, up to that point in my life, the most important deal I’d ever worked on, and I was having a lot of problems, a lot of problems. It was going very poorly, and I was really struggling. I consider myself to be somebody who gets along with everybody, but sometimes when the stakes are really high, that other part of who we are comes out that we don’t want to acknowledge. Maybe your listeners can identify with that. Like, “Hey, I’m usually a nice person. Everybody loves me. What just happened? How come I’m having all these battles and people don’t seem to like me anymore, and I can’t get…?”

Well, a lot of times it’s because something is at stake and you have to negotiate things and you’re fighting over things. And what that does is that gets us more in that survivor brain I was talking about, and your thinking brain gets compromised. You think you’re being logical, but you’re not. So, I described all this to a friend of mine who’s a very, very wise woman named Ranjini, and I just said to her, “I don’t understand why I’m not getting any progress here?” And you know what she said to me? She’s a woman who teaches at a top business school. She didn’t give me any business advice.

She said, “I want you to start every single day praying for the people that you feel are tormenting you and the problem with this thing not moving forward.” I was like, “It ain’t going to happen. Forget about it. Why would I do that? I’m right, they’re wrong. It’s pretty simple, okay?” A neutral outsider looking into the situation, 99 out of 100 times would say, “Mawi is correct. They’re wrong.” I truly felt like that.

Maybe some of your listeners… Listener, can you identify with that? And in situations where you’re pretty sure you’re right, you’re being jacked up by some folks who shouldn’t be doing whatever they’re doing, and you’re stuck there. And the last thing you’re going to do, the last thing you’re going to do is waste a minute in the morning praying for these people. I was desperate, Pete. I was at a point of desperation where I’ve tried everything else. But I tried it, Pete. No joke. Everything moves forward within like five, six days, things start moving forward.

It turns out, unbeknownst to me, my own energy was having a lot bigger contribution than I thought. And by me praying for them, put that aside. What is that? That’s a regulation technique. That’s like I was dysregulated and didn’t know it. I always thought I was being logical. I thought I was using my best intelligence; I was right. And then this is a simple technique of taking things away from my perspective, a simple act of getting on my knees and praying for someone else who I didn’t think should be prayed for, changed my body, changed my energy, and the transaction ended up being one of the best in my career.

Pete Mockaitis

All right.

Mawi Asgedom

So, if it was just as smart as me making an Excel sheet and mapping out the pros and cons, and that was the only way to think about business, then you wouldn’t need something like Inner Heroes Universe. You wouldn’t need that world of things, but it’s not like that, right?

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah, that’s powerful. So, now, well, hey, I’m a believer in the power of prayer. But as you understand it, it’s not so much that the Almighty parted the seas for you, so much as you were putting out some, I don’t know, hostile, contentious, unpleasant, difficult, inflexible – don’t let me throw you too far under the bus here, Mawi – energies in the course of the negotiation, the conversations, with this deal, and it was just getting things sort of jammed up.

You’re like, “I don’t really know how to make progress with this guy over on their side,” is what was going on. But then through the prayer you got into a more chill vibe that you were able to have some back-and-forth and progress. Is that an accurate summary of what went down there?

Mawi Asgedom

Yeah, definitely. Another way of thinking about it was in my previous state, I had access to 70% of my intelligence. Like, my previous state had got me so worked up I thought I had access to 100%. And once I started praying, my energy shifted, I started to think differently, and I regained the 30 additional units I would need to understand where I was being inflexible, to understand, “Oh, well, if I don’t like this person, I’m going to find ways to still get it done rather than just being mad at them.” Like, you’re able to kind of make additional distinctions.

So, it wasn’t that the Almighty did this, necessarily, not that I doubt the Almighty. I think that if there is a lesson from the Almighty here, it’s that, “Hey, there might be a plank in your own eye, as the scripture says, while you’re looking at the peck of dust in somebody else’s eye,” and we have to take responsibility for that as leaders. Well, this is the same thing that we can teach a kid. If you’re upset with somebody else, don’t focus on them for a second, like, “Hey, let’s do some box breathing, let’s do some spider fingers, and then after that, we have a few strategies for you that you can use to exit the situation that are now available to you, now that you’re not completely dysregulated.”

And so, it’s similar because we all have bodies, we all have emotions, we all have feelings, and we all get stuck. The inflexible thinking is a big part of it. Inflexible thinking is a big problem that happens when you get so into somebody, like being against you, or out to get you, or the enemy for a particular thing happening, we kind of get stuck in that quicksand of inflexible thinking that I think that prayer helps out. Yeah, and I think that would be something that would work, Pete, in my opinion, for someone who is an atheist, if they took time to just pray and think about, wish good things upon that person’s the way, I would say it, and shift one’s own energy, like that kind of thing. That makes sense?

Pete Mockaitis

That is good. And when you said box breathing a couple times, so just in case folks are not familiar, Mawi, what is box breathing?

Mawi Asgedom

Yeah. So, I’m still learning a lot about this from the mental health experts, and it’s a variety of breathing techniques, like box breathing, 4-7-8 breathing, where you’re just counting your inhales and your exhales very intentionally. And you could say something like, for example, here’s this book that I have here, shaped like a box, you could say that, and you could breathe in and out, as you’re noticing the contours of the box and feeling that alongside your hands. You could count as you’re doing it.

But the point is you want to pay attention to your breathing. So, it’s all these strategies that are intended to interrupt your thinking through your body or your mind. So, for example, another one, Pete might be something like this. Hey, Pete, tell me your three favorite neighborhoods in the city of Chicago.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, sure thing. Let’s just go with East Lakeview, Wrigleyville, and Old Town.

Mawi Asgedom

Okay, so that’s an example of something called ABC mindfulness we teach kids. You just ask someone to list off three things that you know they know about. And as they’re thinking about those things, their mind kind of moves away from what they were focused on. And that’s very useful for kids where you’d be like, “Hey, tell us your favorite Pokemon.” As they’re reciting their Pokemon, their five Pokemon, or if the kid is into rollercoasters, “Tell us your five favorite rollercoasters.” They recite those rollercoasters, their bodies are calming down because they’re being distracted, and then when they come back, you can ask them to engage in the problem.

So, whether it’s the spider fingers, whether it’s the breathing techniques, whether it’s ABC mindfulness, each person listening to your podcast should have a repertoire of, like, five to six things that they can do. Like, one simple one that I like to do, that Shirzad talks about from Positive Intelligence is just take your fingers and rub them closely so you can feel the contours of your fingers very closely, and you can kind of feel it.

I would literally do that under the table at certain meetings when I was getting stressed out. When someone was saying something that I didn’t like, I would just do that, calm myself before responding. Nobody knew I was doing it because it was under the table, like while I’m sitting at a meeting, I’m calling myself, reminding myself, “Hey, let’s do a little regulation before you jump into something with somebody.” So, that’s kind of like what that world of regulation is all about. Have a few strategies that work for you.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And so, you mentioned that these books cover four areas. We’ve talked a good bit about the soothing, the regulation, which is handy if we’re stressed, overwhelmed, getting angry at folks, and not having our full intelligence. What are the three other areas?

Mawi Asgedom

Yeah. So, we picked regulation because we’re seeing so many challenges post-pandemic, with that in schools and in society at large. Another one that’s massive for today’s world, Pete, is relationship and connection isolation.

And so, two of our characters deal with…one of our characters, bad guys is, one villain is named Iso, we call him Khans, his name is Iso. Then we have Link, whose job is to connect with people. And, Pete, if there’s anything we learned during the pandemic, I would say it’s that we need each other. We need human connection.

And the Surgeon General has said that loneliness and being isolated is the same as smoking, or just being a heavy smoker in terms of what it does for your life expectancy, for example. It’s a devastating kind of issue. So, I would say relationships are a key area. Like, if regulation is the first area, relationships would be the second area, and I can double-click on that if you like.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, yeah, so could you just give us a pro tip or tool that fits in there, sort of like we talked about spider fingers for the regulation? Any relationship power tools?

Mawi Asgedom

Yeah, definitely. A couple power tools I would say is that, one is that pay attention to who your real champions are. What I mean by that is there’s three to five people in your life, Pete, and in every listener’s life that, for whatever reason, these people have been there for you above and beyond what you might even think is deserved, are there.

These people are your ultimate champions. You might view yourself, let’s say, you just like have amazing self-concept, and you think of yourself as a 10 out of 10. These people think you’re a 50 out of 10. They throw opportunities your way that are 50 out of 10. They treat you like that. And God has provided these people to each of us, I would say it’s like angels that help us, but a lot of times we don’t really value them. We don’t connect with them. We don’t thank them.

And following the 80/20 rule of understanding who these people are, really over-invest in them, I would say, is a top relationship strategy. And I think everyone here can think about two or three folks in their network that have really done that for them. Another one, Pete, is that one thought that’s been really helpful to me, professionally, is that I know a lot of people, I’ve made a lot of friends professionally, it was hard for me to admit, Pete, that my relationships were atrophying, that my relationships were, over time, depreciating.

I still know a lot of people, but I haven’t talked to that person in seven years. I haven’t talked to that person in four years. They moved to a different country and they now have like, you know, they’re busy caring for their kids, or whatever it might be, or they did this. And the reality is if I called them, they might be like, “Why is Mawi calling me?” because they thought either someone died, or you just haven’t talked for so long. So, we have these rich relationships over our time but then understanding that, like, “Hey, we have to continuously intentionally renew and build up our relationships.”

And so, I was talking to you before, briefly before our interview, and I was telling you, for example, I joined a club that does cost money, a decent amount of money, that has been really helpful to me over the last year and a half, it’s called 3i, that has really helped me connect with people all over the country, really fun, and it connects me with people that are more in my current stage of life.

Like, I sold my company, I’m post-job right now, really, in how I live my life. And being able to connect with a lot of folks who are in that same kind of stage of life, and have some of the same interests as me, has been a great fit for me. It doesn’t mean I don’t have my old friends or that I’m not connecting with folks, but I kind of like analyze, currently, from my current stage of life, what do I need?

And I would ask every listener to do that. And I would just ask them, for your current stage of life, like what are the new relationships you have to create? Where have things atrophied? Where have things depreciated? Where do you need to step up and really invest in it? I have four kids, Pete, if they were to ask me what’s the single most important thing that I can tell them, other than their life philosophy around their faith and things like that that will help them the most, it’s the people they have around them, without any doubt. That’s the thing in life that makes you happiest and most successful, is having those relationships from mental health, from professional, from happiness.

And so, that’s why we focus on this area. It’s critical for kids. A lot of mental health challenges are rooted in relationship challenges, or accelerated by them. And as adults, we have to nurture our relationships, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. So, we got regulation. We got relationships. What’s next?

Mawi Asgedom

I’d say a growth mindset is critical. Growth mindset has been defined many ways by many different people. I actually had a chance to work with Dr. Carol Dweck, who wrote the book Mindset. I created an online class with her, went to her office at Stanford, and so I feel like I got really a bird’s-eye view of just everything that was happening at the industry, but also learning directly from her and her team.

And a growth mindset is really the idea that our skills and abilities, they’re not fixed. They’re malleable. They can always grow, that we can get better at anything. And the fixed mindset is that we can’t grow, we can’t get better at things. And we want to teach kids these concepts because a lot of them think they’re not as good at math, or something like social anxiety where, “I don’t have any friends.” Well, we can help you make a friend.

Like, if any of your listeners who are anxious, for example, there’s a lot of anxiety out there, one of the most powerful therapies and solutions is you don’t run from the things that make you anxious, you get exposure to it. A lot of the counselors we work with, they actually help people take little steps to gain exposure to those things so they can build those muscles and grow.

So, professionally, the best one example I can give you, Pete, of how this mindset really mattered for me, and I’d ask your listeners to think about this, is when I was selling my company, I engaged with DLA Piper to help me sell the company. It’s one of the top law firms in the country. And there was a part of me that wanted to think “I’m just going to let DLA Piper handle this, okay, because that’s what I’m paying them for, they’re the best.”

Then, one of my friends, who’s a lawyer, who I really respect, a really smart guy, works at a private equity firm, and one of my high school friends, he told me, “Hey, you need to understand every single word in that contract even if you didn’t go to law school. Like, it could be hundreds of pages. I don’t care. You have to take it upon yourself as an intelligent person who believes they can learn about anything.”

So, Pete, I did that. Like, I made sure, if I had questions, I got them all answered. And actually, you’d be surprised how many people I found out signed something without having understood everything that’s in it, like, “Well, I’m agreeing to do this for this amount of money.” Well, it’s only because I had a growth mindset that I was able to do that, that I knew about growth mindset. Don’t be intimidated. Don’t be afraid. Don’t say things like, “I didn’t go to law school, so I can’t understand this.”

Well, if something’s important, assume you can get better at it and learn about it. And that actually made the deal a lot better because then I could ask a lot of questions and unearth sources of value and not be intimidated. So, I’d ask the listeners, is there an area where you’re currently intimidated, or you think you can’t learn it, or you think it’s only for the pros to learn about and you can’t do it? That’s a fixed mindset. You should assume, even if you don’t have the same knowledge as a lawyer, you can get smart enough, like you can get smarter, you can get better at it, to be able to make some progress in that critical area.

So, that’s why a growth mindset is critical for kids and adults. We all have to be aggressive, avid learners. I actually take it personally, Pete, even with my kids, they’re like, “Well, calculus, they’ll take that when they’re 17.” I’m like, “Nope, I’ll take that challenge. I’m going to teach my five-year-old the basics of calculus. I’m going to get a couple boxes, and I’m going to show them how to calculate the area outside, then we’re going to add those up, and that’s basically what calculus is, kid. And you’re going to be able to use this to estimate how much water is in that water tower in a few years when you take a class on this.”

But if you have that orientation that, “I’m so committed to believing that things can be learned,” that I will even take on the challenge of assuming I can start to teach a four-year-old calculus or a six-year-old calculus, I’m not going to back down. It becomes part of one’s professional orientation and life philosophy.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s super. And when it comes to growth mindset, it’s funny, I think that in some ways, folks think, “Well, yeah, okay, I understand there’s a growth mindset, there’s a fixed mindset, and the growth mindset means I believe that I can grow, learn, change, and improve. And fixed mindset believes, ‘Nope, you’re either good or bad at a given thing.’”

And so, what I think is interesting, as I’ve reflected on this lately, is it’s a lot more than just philosophically aligning yourself to the notion that, “Yes, a growth mindset is true in terms of what humanity is capable of and an individual,” but rather like a day-in, day-out experience or mental discipline of, like, sometimes something happens, like, “Oh, I feel like a loser. I’m just not any good at this.”

And it’s funny, like, I will hear myself say these things to myself, and I know that that’s “wrong,” like, “Oh, that sounds like a fixed mindset. That’s incorrect. I’m supposed to have a growth mindset.” So, do you have any pro tips if folks are like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what a growth mindset is, but sometimes I just totally fall back into thinking about things in a fixed mindset kind of a way”? Any hot takes for when you’re in the heat of battle there, what to do?

Mawi Asgedom

Yeah, no, definitely. It’s one of those terms that’s become a platitude that, like, everyone, “Oh yeah, growth mindset, I have a growth mindset.” A lot of folks have no idea what it is or how to think about it. And, quite frankly, there’s a lot of definitions of it flying around out there, so I was particularly grateful that I had the opportunity to work with Dr. Dweck and do a lot of research on it in my own life.

Pete, one of the most useful ways I think about it that’s really helpful is think of a circle, like imagine my fist here is a circle. Let’s call that the can-do circle. That represents all the things we can currently do right now. Like, I can speak a certain level of Spanish. I know how to make these kinds of friends. And what we teach kids and we find to be really powerful is then to tell them, “Hey, look, outside of that is a not-yet circle, there’s things you haven’t mastered yet right.”

And when you’re feeling that feeling of frustration and despair, what we teach kids is that’s actually like a really exciting thing, and that’s where we can train ourselves to say, “Hey, that emotion that I’m feeling, that despair that I’m feeling, that’s the signal for, eventually, maybe not that second, we’re going to process that, but that’s where our inner dragon slayer is going to come out, and say, “I can grow through this and pass this.” It’s like an exciting thing.

And also understanding, as human beings, it’s only normal to fall back to the can. Everything you just described is perfectly part of the human experience. It’s, “I have a challenge.” “My business is not getting the sales I want it to get.” “I’m not getting the promotions.” “I’m trying to learn this new programming language, and I’m not learning it.” And that’s when we have to ask ourselves, “Hey, are we going to push through?”

And so, having those visuals of the can-do circle that’s right there, but then right outside of is that not-yet circle, and then what I like to do, Pete, is I like to set a small goal into my not-yet circle. Like, let’s say I’m trying to grow sales. I’m not achieving my sales goals. I’m really frustrated. I’m feeling bad.

Well, what I can do is I can set a small goal into my not-yet circle, and go into what we call the almost-circle, just outside your can-do circle, it’s right there, and we’ll set a goal, “You know what? I’m just going to reach out to seven people who I’ve already worked with in the past who know me, to get advice about how I can think about this and how I can expand this. Maybe some of those will turn into sales, maybe some of those won’t.” And then from there, I’ll continue to grow. So, I find, Pete, that taking those little actions in the almost-circle, just outside the can-do circle, helps us to continuously grow at the margins and the edges, and that helps a lot.

One of the tools we taught kids in my previous company that we still teach kids was we’d say, “Set a MAD goal, a measurable, attainable with a deadline, a goal that’s measurable, attainable, and with a deadline.” Smart goals are too confusing. There’s too many to remember, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis

There’s five letters. You can’t deal with that.

Mawi Asgedom

It’s too many. It’s too many. What do you think this is? I’m going to have a fixed mindset there and say, “I’m going to go to MAD goals, there’s only three, reduce that,“ but that’s what I’d say. Set a MAD goal just outside your can-do circle and get into it that not-yet circle.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And then the fourth area?

Mawi Asgedom

Fourth area is my favorite, Pete. You heard me talk about the turbo button for a long time. And what that is it’s this area of agency, that as human beings, we’re meant to be agents. That there’s all these external thin

And all that does is it takes away our agency. It makes us feel like we can’t do anything.

And so, it’s a skill, it’s a skill to constantly put oneself back into what we call the turbo zone, like hitting your turbo button, taking action, being able to move by focusing on what you can do. And we teach kids this because a lot of times kids feel like they’re powerless. They live in a world that adults create, and adults are making all the rules, tell them where to go, they got to raise your hand to go to the bathroom, they got to sit in a certain place, they got to eat the like adults do, so they feel like they have no agency, but we show them how to capture that agency and how to recognize that.

I actually thought that one of the most provocative things I ever heard in the world of leadership was when Stephen Covey, in his book, I believe it was The 7 Habits, he says, “The person who takes action, the person with high agency, they’re not a little bit more effective, they’re 5,000 times more effective.” It’s a massive shift, which is a tall claim to make, I mean, to go from twice as effective.

And I actually have found that to be true, that when we’re not acting as agents, Pete, we lose all access to our intelligence, to our relationships, to our connections, to our problem-solving because we’re thinking about something outside of us, by definition, that we don’t control. And so, being able to shift back into agency land is a critical and fundamental tool for any professional who wants to accomplish a lot of things in their life.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s cool. And I want to hear your favorite perspectives on how that’s implemented, but one thing I find really handy is if I’m just sort of like, you know, tired, not feeling it, unmotivated, stressed, under stress, whatever, like all the things. I guess, you know, “Hey, there’s some self-regulation.“ But the question I like to ask myself is, “How can I make all this suck 1% less?”

Mawi Asgedom

Ah, I love it.

Pete Mockaitis

Because when I’m in that space, I don’t feel like dreaming big dreams. I don’t feel like much is possible, but I know there’s always a little something I can do. It’s like, “Well, you know what, I can drink a glass of water. You know what, I can stretch. You know what, it’s dreary and rainy outside, and my eyeballs would appreciate some light, so I’m just going to point my eyes at a light bulb for a little while, and that’s a little bit rejuvenating.”

And, sure enough, I find that you just build that momentum, and so it’s like little thing by little thing by little thing. It’s like, “You know what? I’m feeling okay. Let’s go do something.” And likewise, I think that’s often the case with any number of domains. It’s like, “It’s true, we don’t have control over worldwide geopolitics. We don’t. But what do we have control over? Oh, well, I guess I can tidy up this desk, and then I feel like I’m in control. I’m ready to rock and roll.” So, anyway, that’s how I think about agency. What are some of your favorite moves?

Mawi Asgedom

It’s a big one. And you’re right, a lot of agency, the good news is that we can actually plan for a lot of these things. Like, for example, for our podcast today, I know I just perform better in general for anything that involves other people, anything that’s recorded, anything when I’m speaking, if I’ve done a couple things.

One of those things is like if I’ve done a workout. So, I always do a workout before I have any, and that’s an act of agency. Like, I don’t have to wait till I’m tired, or depleted, or having to recover. I just do that, and so I find that even 15 minutes is better than nothing. When you’re talking about like, “Oh, I feel like I can’t do enough,” 15 minutes makes a big difference. If I really get my heartrate up for 15 minutes, bam, I’ll just do that in a hotel room. If I don’t have any weights with me, I’ll do squats, pushups, some circuit training in a room real quick.

Pete, I have this master account, like Google Doc for my life that I recommend to people. It has five or six tabs, but one of those tabs is things I’m grateful for, not just made-up stuff, like, “Oh, yeah, I got to be grateful.” Like, things that I’m genuinely, like, “Wow, like I’m really grateful for…” I have one of the tabs, Pete, has my worst-performing financial year of my history since I was 22. And the reason I look at that is I can’t help but feel tremendous gratitude. I say, “Hey, God, I’m not any smarter today than I was before. I’m not working any harder.”

And that Mawi got that response, got that, and then this other Mawi got this, I’m just going to choose to be grateful for that. And when you see those stark numbers of dismal, abysmal, like, I’m looking at cell phone plans I can switch to, to try to save an extra $3 a month to survive kind of thing, then you feel really grateful because you remember that.

So, I feel you can build things into your life, and I try to look at that Google Sheet each morning while I look at the different tabs, including where I’ve been grateful, where things have been challenging but where things have gone my way. Like, I have a meditation in there, Pete, that I really like, that I look at each day.

And so, I think we can exercise a lot of turbo and agency in recognizing each day presents its own challenges, and we can also put some things in place to boost ourselves each day, to elevate our things each day. There’s certain music that I listen to. It’s not accidental that where I’m doing this call, like the way I structured my office, Pete, is, it’s like out by some windows because I love light. And there’s a guitar right behind me because I’ll screw around on that a little bit.

So, I try to build into my work environment that, if I needed to, I can just look out the window and feel a little happier, because I love light. I got a little guitar I can screw around with really quick, if I’m in one of those moods you were talking about, it’s literally two feet from me. I’ll just grab it. I’ll strum something really quick. I’ll feel better. And so, I think these are the kind of things that I would encourage your listeners to think about how can you surround yourself with those little things? 

One thing I’ll ask myself, too, Pete, is for any situation, if I have the wherewithal and I feel stuck, I’ll just say, “Okay, how can I turbo this thing?” And that just means, “How can I operate from an internal locus of control instead of external locus of control?” Because when you operate from the internal locus of control, it’s like you’ve got that turbo energy. Like, those movies where someone hits a button in the car and it zooms and flies, has all this energy that no one knew was there until that button got hit. Well, I’ll ask myself, that’s a good metaphor for me, Pete. I’ll say, “How can I turbo this thing? Like, I’m stuck right now. I feel bad.”

And it could be, “Play that guitar real quick. Look out the window. Take a walk.” Like, all those little things. It could be like, “Call a friend.” That’s a big one. “Call a friend” is a huge one. They’ll change a different perspective. I’ll be like, “Oh, that’s a good point. I hadn’t thought of that.” So, I think we all got to develop that toolkit to kind of boost ourselves in those moments, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, now tell me, anything you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Mawi Asgedom

All right, Pete. So, I know you got a lot of listeners out there, Pete, who are at different stages of their life, and now that I’m becoming a few years, I’m going to be 50, Pete. I got four kids. I’ve got a kid who’s a teenager. So, you know what happens when you get a little older, Pete? You start to think, “Man, what are some of the things that I wish I would have known?” So, I actually wrote some of those down when I was a little bit younger, that I would love to share with your listeners, just purely as an act of like, hey, maybe this is the only time I’ll connect with them, and this will help somebody out there.

A couple things that I think are interesting, and this is random, okay, random stuff that I came across. Pete, I think it’s really interesting that my biggest financial mistakes I’ve ever made in my life have been after I had my biggest financial wins. There’s something that lulls your brain, I believe. Like, right after I got on the Oprah Winfrey Show when I was younger, and I had a big book deal with a publisher in the same year, I was on top of the world, I had more money than I ever thought, I made the dumbest financial moves, and it wasn’t that I bought a Ferrari. I wish I would have. I just made really bad investments and things that I thought would work out and they pretty much all went to zero. I felt like an idiot.

And I say that with humility to all your listeners, to say, “Hey, right when you have your biggest win, be extra humble and talk to your friends.” What would have saved me was if I would have talked to my friends more, smart friends. Talk to your friends, take your time, don’t rush. Just don’t rush. You don’t got to do anything. So, that’s one, Pete.

And another one that I would say is, in terms of entrepreneurship, I’d say my biggest leadership mistake, like CEO mistake, was being attached to things that weren’t working for too long. Meaning, like I would work on the same thing for five years and not pivot when the data was really clear that it wasn’t getting traction.

And that thing I had in my heart from being a former refugee of never give up, it actually can be really bad idea. There are times to give up. When the data is all pointing in the same way, it’s foolish to keep doing it again and again and again. You should pivot. 

It doesn’t mean you’re a failure. It doesn’t mean you’re dumb. It doesn’t mean that what you did should have never been done. It just means you’re being intelligent. And I didn’t understand that, Pete, because I was trained to always be a hard worker, and I believed one should never give up, and I believed if I could just work harder, things would work out, and that just was fundamentally wrong in some of those situations.

And then in terms of I would say the thing that helped me the most, conversely that is, where I showed the most wisdom was, I noticed in a couple key instances when something was working better than it should have. And then once I saw that it was working better, I over-invested in that. That’s how my company got into online education, and we became the market leader in social-emotional learning from an online perspective, where we trained more students than anybody else before we sold to ACT.

But that was all an industry I knew nothing about in terms of being online but I kept kind of reinvesting in it as the data came in. So, I’d say it’s the converse of what I learned with the first business is, it’s really like, be very curious and listen to the data, and don’t be over-attached emotionally, particularly if you’re passionate about something. Be willing to shift, be willing to shift, and I say that because I’d hate for there to be a brilliant listener out there who could have so much impact had they pivoted a year earlier, two years earlier.

And then they might think, “Well, I just wasn’t cut out for that business. I wasn’t good enough to succeed in that business,” or “I couldn’t make it.” Actually, that’s not true. You could have made it. You were smart enough. You just need to adjust a little quicker, that’s all, and you would have been fine. That’s why I point that out. That’s just something that I experienced as an entrepreneur.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Mawi Asgedom

One that has been very useful to me and my four kids, are those experiments, Pete, that basically show how addicting variable rewards are.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, yeah.

Mawi Asgedom

So, if you give a mouse some cheese, and it’s predictable, it’ll stop asking for the cheese. It just won’t. But if you vary when it gets the cheese, it’ll keep hitting that lever until it dies basically. And I show that to my kids because I wanted them to know that’s how their phones are set up. Like, all those notifications that come up, every time I sign up for a notification, they’re giving permission to somebody else to send them cheese and addict them at that person’s choosing for their own interest.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite book?

Mawi Asgedom

In the world of fiction, which I’m a big fantasy science fiction advocate, there’s a tremendous author named Robert Jordan. Really sad kind of thing though. He wrote this 15-book series but he died after the 14th book, so somebody else had to finish the book 15. It’s like a huge mega-seller. Actually, Amazon is making a series of his called Wheel of Time. You can watch a couple season of that. It’s really cool.

But his best book that he wrote, in my opinion, is called Dragon Reborn. And the reason I like that story, Pete, is it’s just an incredible fairy tale for adults.

And then, in terms of personal development, the book that I think had the most impact on me, although I didn’t like it the first time I read it, I really didn’t. I thought it was just boring, I couldn’t get through it. But then, I read it again, and I mentioned it before, but I really liked that The 7 Habits book. I like that The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. That book makes a lot of sense to me, Pete. 

Pete Mockaitis

Well, tell us, do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Mawi Asgedom

A lot of us end up doing what we’re doing because we thought it’d make our parents happy. We thought it’s what we should do. We felt like we had to do it. 

And I’m at a spot now where a lot of my friends are asking, like, “Hey, did I even want to do this? Like, why did I do this in the first place? I never wanted to do this.” It’s been pretty tough for me to kind of help my friends think through that. So, I’d say, particularly for those who are younger, but at any age, really like, are you doing what you really want to do? Because we only live once. And it would be really sad to have spent that entire time not at all doing what you want to do. To me, that’s sad. And so, think, take some time to reflect, and think about, “What do you really want to do? What is it?” And it’s not something that anybody else can answer. Nobody else on the planet can answer that other than the listener who’s hearing that question, and being honest with yourself.

And then if you’re not doing what you want to do, well, what are you going to do about it? It doesn’t mean you have to quit your job, but what are you going to do about it? And being honest with yourself about that, because that’s been one of the joys of my life, Pete, I would say, is I have gotten to do what I want to do, and it’s been a joy to like work with kids and to feel like I’m doing what I wanted to do. Even when I was broke, I could wake up and say, “Hey, I’m doing what I want to do,” which gave me a lot of joy.

Pete Mockaitis

Beautiful. Well, Mawi, this is fun. Keep doing your awesomeness, hitting the turbo button, being an Inner Hero. This is awesome.

Mawi Asgedom

Hey, fantastic to be on with you again, Pete, and I look forward to the next time, maybe episode 1,742 we’d be back on.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s a good one.

Mawi Asgedom

That’s a good one, right? We’ll be back on. Thank you. Keep it up, Pete.