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Marco Bartolome

Sep 26
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997: How to Push Past Self-Doubt and Find the Confidence to Pursue Big Things with Pat Flynn and Matt Gartland

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Pat Flynn and Matt Gartland share insights on impostor syndrome–and more–from their community of thousands of developing entrepreneurs.

You’ll Learn

  1. The mindset shift that stops self-doubt
  2. The three daily questions that build confidence
  3. Why to seek more uncomfortable situations

About Pat and Matt

Pat Flynn is a popular podcaster, author, and founder of several successful websites, including SmartPassiveIncome.com, where he helps people build thriving online businesses. He has been featured in Forbes and in the New York Times for his work. He calls himself “The Crash Test Dummy of Online Business” because he loves to put himself on the line and experiment with various business strategies so that he can report his findings publicly to his audience.

He is also the author of Let Go and Wall Street Journal bestseller Will It Fly?. He speaks on the topics of product validation, audience engagement, and personal branding. Pat is also an advisor to Pencils of Promise, a nonprofit organization dedicated to building schools in the developing world. Pat lives in San Diego with his wife April and their two children.

Matt Gartland is an entrepreneur, startup advisor, investor and the co-founder and CEO of SPI Media, where they help everyday people become experienced entrepreneurs through community-powered learning, connection, and support. He’s also the co-founder of Fusebox, as well as an advisor at several startups. He’s an expert when it comes to operations, finance, pricing, product development, and customer experience as well as empowering marketing and sales.

Resources Mentioned

Pat Flynn and Matt Gartland Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Pat and Matt, welcome.

Matt Gartland
It’s a thrill to be here.

Pat Flynn
What’s up, Pete? Great to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m thrilled to have you. I have been such a huge fan of Smart Passive Income for well over a decade. It’s surprising I haven’t tried to rope you in more often.

Pat Flynn
Well, maybe this will be the start of several roping-ins.

Pete Mockaitis
Be careful. Be careful what you promise, Pat. But why don’t you, why don’t we just kick it off? Can you orient us for those who are not as familiar, what is Smart Passive Income, your whole brand, website, channel, thing you got going on?

Pat Flynn
Yeah, I’ll start because it kind of began with me in 2008. I had gotten laid off from my dream job as an architect, and that was the only plan I had was to be an architect, and I got let go in 2008 with the Great Recession, didn’t know what I was going to do. And then through the interwebs, I discovered a podcast that taught me the idea of, “Well, I could start my own online business.” And I was like, “This is insane. Like, I didn’t go to business school. I don’t know how to do any of this stuff, but I had to survive somehow.”

So, I ended up building a website to help architects pass an exam called the LEED exam, a very niched, green building, sustainable design sort of exam, and it did really, really well. In about a year, it had generated over $238,000 in that first year, which was mind boggling. I didn’t even think that was possible, number one. But, number two, I thought at any moment in time, the SWAT team was going at me because it just didn’t feel like it was possible, like, I just I had no idea what was happening.

Pete Mockaitis
You’re making money too easily, “You’re under arrest for easy money.”

Pat Flynn
I was, like, I went to school for architecture, and I’ve spent all this money for schooling, and then here I was just, like, learning as I was going, and doing much better. It just didn’t make sense. Now when that happened, a lot of people were like, “Pat, tell us what happened. How did you do this?” I’m like, “I don’t know. I’m just to share what I did,” and that’s what I did.

I started a website called Smart Passive Income And then along the way, in 2013, I wrote my first book, and that’s where Matt and I crossed paths the first time because he was helping me edit that book, and I had just such a wonderful experience working with Matt then that we started working a little bit more closely together on projects.

I started to speak a lot more on stages, build more of a brand reputation in the personal brand space here. And then Matt and I tied the knot, if you want to call it that, in the late 20 teens, and have been working together ever since, and it’s just been fascinating. So, now we teach people, no matter what level they’re at, how to start a business online. So that’s the quick story from my end.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Pat and Matt, you have built an amazing thing, and I do know firsthand I am a longtime customer and fan, and so I recommend we’ll be linking it in the show notes and whatnot all your goodies. But this is not a podcast so much about creating cool online courses or building a dope YouTube channel, even though you’ve accomplished that.

But I want to talk to you, specifically, about the zone of confidence, imposter syndrome, because that comes up a lot for my listeners, and I know it also comes up a lot for your students, and they wonder, “Well, who am I? Who would ever want to pay money for my course? Or who might want to listen to me on a podcast, or watch me in a YouTube, or pay me hundreds, thousands of dollars for what I know in some sort of a package?”

And so, you’ve helped many people think about this, I think, pretty well and clearly. Not like, “No, you’re brilliant! No matter what you do, it will work and you’ll prosper and get rich!” Nor it’s like, “No, forget it! There’s no chance for you. Forget it! Who are you to say it?” Like, you really do a wise job, I think, of navigating this territory between under- and overconfidence, so I want to hear all about how we do that.

Pat Flynn
Yeah, this is a really important topic. I mean, whether you are going to become an entrepreneur or not, becoming entrepreneurial in the way that you think, in the way that you solve problems, in the way that you feel about yourself is really, really key. Obviously, if you are an entrepreneur and you don’t believe in what you have to offer, you’re not going to do a good job of selling it. Nobody’s going to believe you. And when it comes to the workforce, in your professional career, if you don’t believe in yourself, you’re not going to go anywhere either.

There is selling involved in who you are and the value that you have to offer your higher-ups in which you could provide the company, and those are all important things to understand. Yet, like an entrepreneur, we always get in our own way.

We are often, and this is where my story really began as an entrepreneur, is I had to let go of who I thought I was supposed to be in order to become who I was supposed to become. I had been trained to have everything be perfect. As an architect, especially, it’s like if you don’t build the building well, it could crush people, so you kind of need it to be perfect in the way you design things.

But when it came to being an entrepreneur, you can’t. You have to be imperfect. That’s the only way to progress is through failure and mistakes and learning as you go and figuring things out. And if I had to design my career, like I designed a building, I would still be designing it and not taking any action. But what I learned, and maybe this is where we start, is through all of this, relationships have been so, so key.

Knowing people and understanding what value means to them has been the most important thing to help me get to where I’m at today and will continue to help me as I move forward. It’s all about relationships. So, if you try to go through life and your career all on your own, it’s going to be very, very difficult. But when you start to understand the people part of this, it begins to unravel into a clearer path because, really, it’s about serving others.

And that includes in your work, your clients, obviously, but also your manager or your boss, and understanding what’s important to them and seeing how you might be able to position yourself as indispensable or providing some sort of value that only you can do because, either maybe that’s your expertise, or that’s what you train to do, or you figured something out, that without you, the company wouldn’t run in its optimal format.

So, there’s a lot to unpack here, I’m sure, but for any entrepreneur who knows what they’re doing, it’s about serving others first. And I think it’s the same thing when it comes to building your career. How can you be of service to others? Your value, your salary is often proportional to that.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that so much. And starting right there with that imperfect, I think that is probably a killer of starting quite often from the get-go. It’s like, “I don’t know how this is going to work. I don’t know if it is going to work. It might be kind of shoddy.” Take us into the right mindset for starting imperfectly. Like, what’s the wrong way to think about it, that’s going to kill any idea or momentum before it starts? And what’s the prudent ideal way to think about imperfection?

Pat Flynn
The idea of imperfection and failure has been ingrained to many of our heads since growing up, “If you don’t get an A, you’re doing it wrong,” or on your tests. It’s, “You have to be perfect or else.” And that’s a very tough position to be in. How could you possibly even learn to explore or try new things if that is the mindset you have going into something new?

You have to have the mindset of failing fast means learning faster. And I think that that is a huge thing to understand. The idea that as long as you understand that there is learning to be had, true failure is giving up, but worrying so much about what the result will be often stops people in their tracks. I make the success my actions, not the result of those actions, because I can’t always control the results. But I can control the actions I take.

And so, if there’s learning on those results, that means even if I fail, I am making progress, and sometimes, yes, you’ll have to communicate this with other people who are around you and other involved parties. But, mentally, introspection-wise, personally, I use to account all of my success on the results that the work that I did do, and that’s a very tough position to be in. Imagine doing the action, and then an algorithm or YouTube or somebody else says, “No, that’s incorrect,” or, “You did it wrong,” even though you know that you prepared yourself to do things correctly.

And so, it’s a very tough mental position to be in to consider your success, the results of what you do, versus, “I did the work. I showed up. I did my best, and I’m learning from my mistakes.” That is a win even if the result isn’t where you wanted it to be because you can’t necessarily always control the result, but you can always control your actions that you take now. The actions that you take today, turn into the story that you tell about yourself tomorrow.

Pete Mockaitis
Tweet that, Pat. That’s good.

Pat Flynn
Yeah, I’ll engrave that one in a wood plaque at some point. But, Matt, I’m curious your thoughts on this too, because you deal directly with a lot of students who are at that level, where they just are getting in their own way and they’re telling themselves stories about why this is not going to work. How do you coach people? You’ve coached several people in our community directly on those kinds of things.

Matt Gartland
I like how Pat kind of phrased it around entrepreneurial and how do we just kind of reframe sort of our headspace and then, therefore, our approach to relationships.

And it’s similar, but maybe a different way of teeing it up, which is not to expect an immediate reward, not to expect like, “Hey, I’m going to do a thing. I’m going to deliver value into a relationship,” especially a new relationship, and instantly expect, like, closing a sale, or getting a yes, or some sort of immediate gratification.

If we can lean into new relationships and be okay with the imperfection of like, “I’m not getting something immediately back,” and being okay with that, and I’m not saying that that’s easy, but just like the reps of practicing that, that is healthy relationship-building.

Like, just invest into them, deliver value, help them in some way, start to earn that trust. That works in any career. That works in a corporate environment, whether it’s with your supervisor or a cross-functional manager or partner or an executive in your company, if you work in retail. All of these different career pursuits and job types can, I think, improve if we initially detach the pursuit of, like, some sort of instant gratification or reward for my actions, and invest more into their success and just value delivery, I think is one of those really healthy, important kind of reframes on building relationships and getting more comfortable and, therefore, less maybe trapped in our own insecurities or imperfections, that headspace is not helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
Ooh, there’s so much there in terms of I like that headspace is when you are focused on serving and delivering value to the others, by definition, we’re no longer self-centered. “You lose yourself,” to quote Eminem, the best pump-up song ever, before entering a situation. So, you lose yourself and you’re not self-centered, you’re other-focused, giving value, and then a lot of the nervousness disappears. I’d love to hear a bit more about the success comes from the actions, not from the results.

We had B.J. Fogg on the show, talking about Tiny Habits, and he’s awesome. He told me that I was a natural celebrator. And I’m curious, if we find ourselves maybe getting a little bit hung up on the external results, the wins, the validations, the atta-boys, are there any methods or approaches you use to celebrate your actions or to bring your head back into the zone of, “No, no, this was a win, this was victory because I took the action here”?

Matt Gartland
I think that this is a part of the richer story of, like, finding jobs that speak to satisfaction and bring joy to our work

Just like doing good work with good people, trying to help in whatever sort of way that that makes sense in your own definition of an ideal job, I think, is a really kind of motivating force and can help us overcome mistakes and pitfalls and whatnot that will be true anywhere if we’re not doing those things. And, I think Pat said it earlier, like we’re not maybe trying hard enough or leaning into the opportunity to serve people and collaborate with others.

Pat Flynn
Also, I think it’s important, and you’d mentioned this briefly, Matt is the idea of the team and doing great work together with others. And part of a leader’s role, and I think everybody should, and it’s very entrepreneurial to be a leader, to see others who are there who might need your help or guidance, to also recognize the good work that they do. And I think it’s important in a communal situation, especially in a workplace, to recognize those who are doing work that may also often just be overlooked.

I remember when I was working in architecture, there was one person, Adrian was his name, he would always recognize the small things that I did that were good, and that reinforced me to want to do those things and other things even better, and those are things that the project managers would often sort of overlook. And that made sense because they weren’t directly working with me. Adrian was the job captain who was in charge of sort of my work and overseeing my stuff.

But recognizing things that were a little bit challenging, and even if I didn’t do them correctly, the fact that I tried and made progress on those things was good. It helped me want to make sure those things were even better the next time, and that’s really key. And we practice that inside of Team SPI as well, and we try to recognize those in our community at the same time and the good work that they do. Even those small things matter quite a bit.

It’s human nature to want to feel like you’re a part of something, and I think in the workforce that sometimes gets forgotten because there’s a job to do, but it’s still people talking with other people and connecting with other people, and the people sort of component of this is really key. And if you can set yourself up as a leader, which means a few things, being a leader means seeing and recognizing the work that other people do, like I just said.

But it’s also owning up to what your weaknesses are and what your mistakes are, and then seeing how others can fill in that gap, and you all working together toward a greater good or a common goal, or also working on those things that are weaker and just not pretending like you know everything, I think, is important, too. The good leader is the one who’s in the trenches with the community, not the one at the top of the mountain just yelling and telling everybody what to do, in my opinion.

And I think that energy inside of that workforce and that workspace is really important to just to understand. There’s no necessarily a barometer that measures the energy in the room. But there is a feeling, and I think it’s important to keep that as high as possible, the energy in the group.

Pete Mockaitis
I dig that a lot, and so props to Adrian. Thanks, Adrian. You’re awesome.

Pat Flynn
Yeah, thank you, Adrian.

Pete Mockaitis
If we’re lacking an Adrian in our workplaces, an unfortunate place to be, do you have any self-talk approaches or strategies? If we may, could we zoom into the conversations that you’re having with yourselves that you find helpful for persisting in the midst of these sorts of situations?

Pat Flynn
I’m reminded of a journal that I used to write in every single day, I did for three years until I moved on to a different system, but it’s called “The 5-Minute Journal.” And “The 5-Minute Journal” is an incredible sort of journal. Journaling is great. That’s a great way to be introspective and to learn and to kind of unpack things that may be happening throughout the day, but I always found that just like blank page journaling was very hard. I’m like, “Okay. Dear, Pat, here’s what your day was,” and then, like, I don’t know where to go.

But “The 5-Minute Journal” is nice because it breaks things down for you. When you start your day, you open this book, there’s already prompts, “What are three things that you’re grateful for today?” And I love starting the day with thinking about gratefulness because, no matter what happens, I know there’s something I can be grateful for, and it changes every day. I might be grateful for the food I have, or the fact that I get to drop off my kids at school every day. Whatever it might be, it changes.

But what’s really nice is at the end of the day, I can look back before I go to bed and I can write three things that I’m proud of myself for actually accomplishing. No matter big or small, I know I made some sort of progress, and it could be as small as the fact that I made my bed in the morning, to the fact that we just finished this million-dollar project and the client loved it. Just to have that documented and to kind of put it on paper allows us to process these things.

And the additional component of “The 5-Minute Journal,” Also asks you, “What are three things that you could have improved on today that you’re going to hopefully improve in the future?” And it might be, “Oh, you know, I was a little bit of a jerk to my coworker today. I’m going to work on that tomorrow. Cool.” “I didn’t work on my health and fitness today. I just ate McDonald’s all day, so I’m going to try to work on that.”

And, again, it becomes a place to document these things, and it’s really amazing to go back into time and read these things, and it kind of helps you remember that, (a) you have all these amazing things to be grateful for, no matter what’s happening, and (b) you are always looking to see how you might be able to incrementally improve tiny habits, just like you said, over time, and that’s one device that I would recommend people check out if you’re into that thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, very good. I think we had a psychologist, Dr. Ellen Reed, saying these exact sorts of prompts so they’re good, they are science-approved that they really do get you into an awesome, what’s the word, it’s like a nice virtuous cycle in terms of, “Okay, we got some gratitude, we got some pride, we got some improvement, and up and up and up and up, and self-confidence rises,” and it’s a beautiful thing.

Matt Gartland
I’ll add, if I can, two additional thoughts on that, I think that’s great. One is to preemptively surround yourself with people when you need them, whether that takes the form of a mastermind group, at least as we think about those in online communities, whether that is a collection of your neighbors in your local community. I’m privileged to have some really awesome neighbors that we’ve gotten close and we hang out a good bit these days.

Or, even a variety of different small kind of addressable groups, because we’re all going to have bad days or bad weeks, and these things are not always, per se, work-driven, or career-driven, like, life of course intersects us all the time.

So, if you can build into those relationships, which kind of, of course now, kind of folds back on the power of relationships and intentionality with which we’re investing value into relationships, then lean on them when you have a low moment and you need some re-encouragement, if it’s a super bad day, because you know that it’s going to come back around. One of those friends and colleagues or partners is going to need that of you.

And then you go through that cycle enough times, you’ll learn one of the most obvious truths ever, which is we’re all going to have hard moments at any scale of success, no matter what number is in your bank account or what size house you live in or all these other maybe, like, attributes of success or claims of success. Like, we all struggle with stuff, and people are people. So, if you can build it with the right people, and if you’re surrounding yourself with people that share your kind of a common set of values, and you nurture into that, that safety net is there when you need it.

Pete Mockaitis
That is huge. I’ve got a podcast mastermind group and a church men’s group and, of course, just friends and neighbors, and it’s huge. So great reminder. All right. Beautiful. So, let’s say we’ve got these foundations in place. We’re going to start imperfect. That’s cool. We’re going to do some journaling and thoughtfulness associated with celebrating the daily successes. We got supportive relationships. Cool, cool, cool.

Well, let’s say, yeah, we’re going to embark upon this thing that we found kind of scary. Maybe it’s a big new project. We’re not sure if folks are going to embrace it at work or it’s maybe our own side hustle, our own project. What are some of your pro tips on taking the first real steps in the exterior world that are likely to be prudent and not too risky, not too un-risky?

Matt Gartland
Especially through the entrepreneurial lens but I think this works in so many other contexts, is to develop a range of skills borne of a range of diverse perspectives, which is in contrast to just being too narrow and maybe even almost too hyper-specialized with one discrete skill or focal point.

With small business, especially if you’re working for yourself and you’re not a venture-backed tech company, then you’re probably doing a lot of this stuff. You’re trying to think about your marketing and positioning. You’re trying to design the product or service. You’re doing fulfillment, like the actual delivery of that work or build that thing. You’re maybe even doing a little bit of sales, business development, building relationships, maybe some partnerships.

And if you lean into that with joy, if you lean into that with like an adventurous sort of mindset, like, “Look, like that’s actually a good thing. If I can develop a broader range of skills that gives me more confidence…” to go back to the theme of confidence, “…and, like, being able to do the thing, whether, again, it’s a side hustle or a small business on my own, or even just a big project at work.”

And there’s a great book that kind of encapsulates a lot of the thinking by David Epstein called Range, and he pulls from a crazy amount of industry and science, and even athletes, professional athletes, to kind of make the case and tell these stories, which is, like, if you can have more range of ability, you can think faster, make sharper decisions, your instincts are improved, you’ll enjoy the process more, you’ll probably have outsized performance as a result, and, therefore, set yourself up for a higher degree of probability for success.

Pete Mockaitis
We had David Epstein on the show talking Range, and it’s good. We’ll link to it in the show notes.That’s beautiful. That confidence often comes from, “Yeah, sure enough, I’ve done this before in a lot of different contexts, and, boom, we got this under control.”

Pat Flynn
From my perspective, I love the idea of what I like to call a voluntary force function. A force function is something that kind of forces you to do something, and a voluntary one is you put yourself in that situation on purpose. And I have a perfect story to share about when I was still in architecture, where I, in fact, got a promotion and a raise as a result of putting myself in a situation that was slightly higher pressure than I would just be otherwise because I voluntarily put myself into that situation.

So, thankfully, I was with Adrian out in Orlando. We were meeting with the Hilton regional director for all Hilton hotels on the East Coast, so he was like a bigwig in the world of hotels. The division in the architecture firm I was at was hospitality. So, we built hotels, restaurants, that sort of thing, and I was just like the grunt in the room. I was just there to take notes and to follow along. I was sort of almost like intern status even though I was getting paid. It was very early on in my career.

There was a point in the middle of this conversation where they wanted to redesign a lot of the hotel rooms and kind of make them a little bit more modern, and there was a tool that had just come out called V-Ray that was a 3D modeling tool that allowed you to have photorealistic versions. This was early 2000s, by the way, so it was like before all the neat fancy easy-to-use computer-related programs came out. This was like early, early when it came to that stuff.

And the regional director said, “Hey, does anybody know how to use V-Ray in the room? I want to see what these rooms are going to look like before we make these final decisions,” and the room was completely silent. Nobody raised their hand. I had heard of V-Ray before. So, I don’t know what it was in me, I put my hand up and I said, “I can make this 3D renderings for you.” He’s like, “Son, you were in the back quiet the whole time. Who are you?” “Well, I’m Pat Flynn. I’m just a drafter here at MBH Architects.” “Cool. I look forward to seeing those renderings in about a month.”

And Adrian looks at me, he’s like, “Are you kidding me? You don’t know how to do that?” And I said, “I’m going to figure it out.” And I did. I had enough. Like, that was all I could think about because I had so much pressure on me to figure it out that, guess what, not only did I figure it out, I became the example for so many other people in the office on how to use this program. I even taught workshops on how to use this program. I wasn’t an expert, but I knew enough to do what I needed to do to get those drawings out there.

And just last year, I went into my dad’s storage unit because he wanted me to get some stuff out there from the past, and I found those renderings and it just brought back all these memories of the heightened pressure I was in, yes, but just how great it was to accomplish something that I didn’t even think was possible, because I put myself in that little bit of a higher-pressure situation. It’s almost like if you want to learn a language, what’s the best way to learn a new language? You literally buy a plane ticket and spend a month in that country. You’re going to figure it out because you have to kind of thing.

And I think a lot of us often will try to sit in complacency when it comes to our work and our life. Comfort is great, but comfort doesn’t help us grow. All the best and most awesome things happen outside of that comfort zone. So, there might be something in your audience’s head right now that they might be thinking, “Well, what if I were to put myself in that position?” Well, what if? What would happen? And also, what’s the worst-case scenario? Probably not as bad as the best thing that can happen if you take action and you are compelled to do it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s really well said. As I suppose the worst-case scenario is you fire up V-Ray, and you go, “Oh, shoot, this was vastly more difficult than I expected.” But on the flip side, I imagine you’d say, “Hey, I’ve learned new software packages and platforms before, and I am an architect. Though I don’t know it yet, how brutally challenging can it really be?” especially if you’ve got, you don’t need it tomorrow, you’ve got some time on your hands.

Pat Flynn
And it’s not impossible. That’s the other thing. A lot of times we assume things are impossible, or, “I would never be able to do that,” but that’s just a story we’re telling ourselves based on past experiences. But when you break it down to first principles, like Elon Musk does with things, you can eventually build a rocket that can go into space and land itself, which nobody thought was possible.

But you start to strip things down to the absolute truths and realize that, “Well, maybe it is possible and maybe I can do this. And if somebody else has done it before, then it’s absolutely true that it’s possible. I just need to figure it out and talk to the right people, make the right calls, do all these actions that I wouldn’t have normally taken because I wasn’t in this slightly higher-pressure situation.”

And that helped me account for a raise, a promotion. Like, it led all the way to where I am now, the butterfly effect, so.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I love that story so much. And, Pat, if we are not so fortunate as to be in a meeting with a bigwig who asks a question that’s just floating in the air waiting for us to grab, any pro tips or fun ideas for how we can bring the forcing situation upon ourselves?

Pat Flynn
It reminds me of Noah Kagan from OkDork. He was number, I don’t know, nine at Facebook or something and then he got fired. But then he wanted to work for Mint.com, and he applied for a marketing position there and he didn’t get it. So, he said, “No, I know I can help this company. I’m just going to come up with a marketing plan and make it on my own. I’m going to write a 10-page report on the way that I would market Mint if I was here. Even though I didn’t get hired, I’m just going to give them my plan because I know it’s that good.”

And he did that. He didn’t have to, but he did, he volunteered to do it, and then they hired him because it just showed that he really, truly knew exactly what he was talking about. So, in a way, it’s an understanding of, “Okay, what is of value to said company, said person, whoever it might be that the decision-maker is, and then giving them that value, like, go and do the thing?”

So, if I didn’t have a bigwig, if I was proactive in thinking about what would be valuable to Hilton or this company or my work at the time, I might have already had that idea to make a V-Ray version of this even if I wasn’t prompted to because it matched that level of “What is value to who is the decision-maker right now?” So, exploring and going out there, and asking and understanding what it means to, you know, a lot of us when we’re working somewhere, we don’t really know how the work we do affects everything else that it leads to.

I think the more you can begin to understand your role in what it is that you do and why it matters, then you can lean into those things that you then bring to the company more than if you’d kind of just did the bullet-point list on your job description.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Pat, I love that so much with the Noah Kagan story. It reminds me, also we had Ramit Sethi on the show talk about the briefcase technique. Like, in an interview, he was like, “Oh, let me show you. I went ahead and did the thing.”

So, what’s cool about that is you combine those elements of, “Okay, but think about a person and what’s of value to them. And, hey, here’s a date in which I’m going to be speaking with that person. Well, hey, it looks like I’ve now got some pressure in terms of a deadline. I should go ahead and make the thing before I meet with that person.”

And, Matt, I wanted to follow up with your perspective. You’ve got some views when it comes to people, relationships, being of value. How do you think about that in a way that’s just been really transformational for you?

Matt Gartland
Well, even in Pat’s examples, like the power of story infused with doing of the thing, I think if you can do both in the right context, that’s a positive double whammy. So, yeah, do the thing, take initiative, but then add a story layer to it. Communicate your thought process. How and why did you come up with, maybe with the Noah example, why did you come up with the type of marketing plan that he did? It’s not just the fact that he did one, but it’s he created a specific one borne of his own creative thinking, his own imagination, his own story.

So, if you can, in your own situation, think about the “what.” The “what” is the thing to do, but also then, like, the “why” in the story, and it kind of brings your own personality into it. That’s how you get sticky. That’s how, like, “Oh, like, Matt Gartland or Pat Flynn,” or, like, your name gets associated with the thing more than just, like, “Oh, this is a nice plan. I’m going to go implement the plan. I kind of forget who actually did it.”

So I’d figure out like what that story wrapper is around the thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I’d love that concept of the story wrapper around the thing, it enhances it. I’m thinking back in the day when I was consulting, I had plans to leave consulting and start my own business, and so I had created this savings spreadsheet, just like personal savings of money, like, “Okay, how can I make it so dirt simple to know how much money I should be saving?” And so, I thought, “Okay, just input your base expenses and then see how much do you want to save, by what time. And then here’s how much you have left to play around with.” And so, that’s all I got to know.

It’s like, “Okay, spend less than $80 a day on random fun things, like tacos or whatever, and we’re good.” So, I shared that with a few of my colleagues, and they thought it was cool because they’re consultants and they like spreadsheets. But you’re right, when you added the story around it, it became legendary.

And when I left, and folks were talking about, “Oh, Pete, bye. We’re going to miss you, and your legendary savings spreadsheet will live on,” because there was a story like, “Oh, yeah, I want to leave this consulting and go be a speaker, author, something. I love developing people skills stuff and I’m going to figure that out, and I’m going to need some savings because I don’t know what I’m doing yet.”

Matt Gartland
Yeah, I think that’s exactly it.

Pat Flynn
So good.

Matt Gartland
And maybe as another intersection that’s adjacent to the thought is, “Can you do something that maybe the other person,” or if it is a bigwig, “they don’t want to do or it’s not their cup of tea?” So, like the classic maybe phrasing of one person’s garbage is another man’s treasure, kind of adapting of the metaphor here, but at least in the entrepreneurial world is maybe a better example.

There’s a lot of energy about being a visionary and coming up with ideas and being the idea person, and that’s really important work, to be clear. But, especially, then down the line, though, there’s need for operations and integrations and systems and finances, and all of these other things that come around.

And, at least, if you look at it on paper, if you read a book, maybe like Gino Wickman’s book, Rocket Fuel, as one reference point, there’s a whole other set of value in responsibilities and work to do that. Maybe, like, in this context, a visionary doesn’t want to do, and especially if you are maybe naturally wired to be that person, can you feel out those opportunities to do the other side of the coin, add value in this other way, create an opportunity by taking on an initiative, or lean into an opportunity and create that opportunity for yourself by doing so that kind compliments the other side, compliments the other person or the other team in an organization?

I wouldn’t say force yourself into something that you don’t want to do. That’s not what I’m trying to articulate, but rather it’s, like, if you are naturally gifted and can lean into an opportunity that someone else maybe doesn’t want to do, I mean, there’s an opening right there, and then add together, kind of stack these ideas, find that opening, take initiative to create a thing, put a story wrapper around it. Gosh, I think if you did those three things in combination, that’s a massive winning advantage.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that so much. And now I’m thinking about my colleague, Anne, at my other company, Cashflow Podcasting, and it’s funny, there’s been a couple of times where I’ve just “vision-arily,” I guess, just thrown out an idea, and then she comes back with such beautifully detailed spreadsheets. I was like, “Hey, I think our website could really be improved here, here, here.”

And then she’s like, “Okay, so here is an in-depth creative brief about all of the strengths and weaknesses associated with our competitors’ page in which they are doing the job better than we are doing, and how I’d like to adapt this and that.” And I was like, “Oh, wow.” It’s, like, I didn’t want to do all that. I just wanted the page to be beautiful and more effective. But then she just did the hustle, the legwork of the detailed bit-by-bit, “This is what excellence can look like,” and it was oh so delightful to me.

Matt Gartland
Yeah, that’s an amazing example. I think that’s spot on.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Pat and Matt, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about a few of your favorite things?

Pat Flynn
One thing comes to mind when it comes to entrepreneurship, I think it’s important, especially when you want to be a leader, when you want to be a teacher, there’s so much information out there now. Information is now not the valuable thing anymore.

So, we have to think beyond the information or beyond the work that you do, and it’s the brand that you create around the work that you do. That involves how you interact with people, but also that involves what you stand for. What are your beliefs and your values that you bring here that support the company that you work for? Because those are the things that become the people-to-people connection.

We connect with other people, and I think that the more you can show up as a human, and that means taking a position on something, that means taking a stand for something you believe in, that also supports the company’s values, and really kind of not just doing the work that, eventually, and it’s a scary time right now with like AI. AI is going to take a lot of jobs and it’s going to do a lot of work that is just kind of commoditized, and everybody’s doing the same thing.

So, it is the human-to-human interaction that is going to be the differentiator. So, it’s important to work on who you are and how you then can mold into the business that you’re in and to the company that you’re in, in a way that’s beyond just, “Here’s what I was hired to do. Here is the value beyond that that I can bring to the company, the relationships, the energy, the positioning that we have, and the mission that we’re on together.”

And I think it was Zig Ziglar who said, “You can have anything in life that you want so long as you help other people get what they want.” And so, I’ll finish there because that’s one of my favorite quotes and I try to live by that.

Matt Gartland
For me, it’s the notion of letting go, which is kind of ironically, and it’s fun to say, like the first project Pat and I worked on, which is the title of his memoir book. Like, if you want to keep growing, pursuing new opportunities, you’re going to have to let go of the thing that got you there. Like, maybe it’s the job in pursuit of a different job, maybe that requires a small leap of faith.

Whether it’s maybe going out and starting your own business. I mean, any sort of reference point to get to the next thing, and the next thing that is maybe a little more meaningful. It’s not maybe an incremental point of growth. It’s maybe a little more towards exponential. It’s going to take some of that, again, courage, overcoming some imperfection tendencies, and some of the other things that we’ve discussed today, to let go of that thing, even if it’s been awesome and successful, and it’s even a big part of your identity up until this point, especially from a career standpoint, to do something new and exciting, maybe a little bit bold.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Well, now in rapid-fire, could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Pat Flynn
“Whether you think you can or you can’t, you’re right.” Ford.

Matt Gartland
All right. I’ll use “Give to Grow,” which is the title of a friend’s new book that’s coming out all about investing in people, and we’ve hit on some of those themes today. So, give to grow, and good things will happen.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Pat Flynn
Right now, Dark Matter. It’s the latest one that I read, and I don’t read a ton of fiction, and I really loved it. And it’s now, I guess, an episodic series on Apple.

Matt Gartland
All right. I’m a proud father of two little girls, so it’s a parenting book, but The Anxious Generation is just a masterful read for me.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Jonathan Haidt.

Matt Gartland
He’s a parent. Yes, exactly. And I think there’s just a lot of crossovers into society and how we think about just the intersection of work and life, and mobile devices being at the center of a lot of that. So, it’s a fantastic read on a lot of levels.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your jobs?

Matt Gartland
Notecards.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Matt Gartland
It’s just such a great tool. Simple. You can have multiple versions. Carry them with you everywhere. Get ideas down, plot out a plan. So, notecards.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Pat Flynn
For me, kind of similar, Post-it notes. I use it to plan everything, like literally everything. Our brains do a good job of coming up with ideas but not necessarily organized or in the correct order. So, I like to get everything out there using Post-it notes, one idea per note, and then that’s where I rearrange things. I use that to write my books, create courses, outline my YouTube videos, podcast episodes. So, it’s like a notecard except there’s a little sticky edge on it. So, me and Matt are pretty similar in that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Pat Flynn
I think about a few things that I’m grateful for the moment I wake up.

Matt Gartland
Sleep habit is mine. Just when I go to bed and try to get into a healthy circadian rhythm so that I’m waking up as refreshed and as energized as I can be, because if I have that, everything works better throughout the day.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that you’re known for, a Matt or Pat original quotation?

Pat Flynn
“You got to be cringe before they binge.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that sounds accurate.

Matt Gartland
That’s pretty good.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Matt Gartland
So SmartPassiveIncome.com is just our site at large, but as we’ve kind of shared, or at least at the top, the community is the center point of everything that we invest into and care about the most because we know it works. We see it every day. So, you can go to SmartPassiveIncome.com/all-access to check out our All-Access Pass, which is just a perfect kind of on-ramp to all of our work.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a final challenge or call to action for those looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Pat Flynn
I challenge you to get a little uncomfortable. If you’ve been complacent, but you’ve been looking to grow, where might that next level be in that realm of a little bit of discomfort, one sort of step outside of that comfort zone? I think, typically, when I run this exercise with students, they already know what that is because they’ve been wanting to do it, they’ve just been scared.

And this is just a call to action to go and make that happen because, here’s another quote to finish off that relates to this, that is a Pat Flynn original, “I would rather live a life full of ‘Oh, wells’ than a life full of ‘What ifs’.” Those regrets are going to haunt you, so you might as well take action and see what happens.

Matt Gartland
And I would say, go say hello or introduce yourself to one person that you know that you should know as a part of your network, as a part of maybe even your inner circle, and you haven’t because of XYZ mental figment of your imagination. So, it takes some more courage to do that, but, yeah, go say hello to that person.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Matt and Pat, this has been delightful. Keep on doing the great stuff you’re doing.

Matt Gartland
You as well, Pete.

Pat Flynn
Thanks so much, Pete. You, too.

Matt Gartland
Thanks a ton. This was great.

Sep 09
0

Join our 1000th Episode Giveaway Special!

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Thank you for helping us reach 1000 episodes!


…and if you were wondering if we’re going to have a super special guest for the 1000th episode. The answer is yes. YOU! We want to hear from you for our 1000th episode.

We’ll be featuring the stories of fifteen lucky listeners. Plus, we’re giving away $1000 worth of prizes to celebrate!

Now’s your chance to be featured on How to be Awesome at Your Job…

Send in a 3- to 5-minute recording or 400- to 800-word story that answers the question: “How has listening to How to be Awesome at Your Job helped me flourish at work?” We want to hear about the great results you’ve achieved by applying what you learned from the show. The fifteen most inspiring and transformational stories will be aired as part of our 1000th episode. 

Three winners will receive the grand prize of a $200 Amazon gift card. We’ll also be selecting 12 runners-up to receive an exclusive How to be Awesome at Your Job t-shirt!

Submit your entries to our TypeForm.

We’ll be accepting submissions until SEPTEMBER 24, 12:00 AM Central Time. 

We want to hear your answer: How has listening to How to be Awesome at Your Job helped you flourish at work?

  • Which episode from How to be Awesome at Your Job helped you the most? What was the specific insight that motivated you to make a change?
  • What concrete steps did you take to achieve your desired results?
  • What advice and key learnings would you share with others in the same situation?

Contest Rules:

  1. All submissions must be in English.
  2. Submissions may be in audio or written format. You do not need to be the one reading your submission; however, please ensure that you have the permission to use the voice of the person who’s reading. Submissions that use A.I. text-to-voice technology will be disqualified.
  3. Submissions must be original and the listener’s own. Please be mindful of copyright and trademark laws, and do not include music, sound effects, or any other audio you do not own the rights to.
  4. Submissions must not contain any explicit content, including curse words or scenarios unsuitable for general audiences.
  5. Grand prize winners who reside outside the United States will receive the equivalent of a $200 gift card for their local Amazon. Winners whose countries don’t have a local Amazon will receive a gift card for Amazon US.

Criteria for Judging:

  • Clarity: Can we follow and imagine the events of your story? Is it clear how the podcast helped you transform your situation?
  • Impact: Was the result big and amazing? Do we feel inspired after hearing your story?
  • Creativity: Is your story compelling, engaging, and unique? Does your narration convey your thoughts and feelings at the time? 
  • Production Quality (for audio submissions): No need for fancy audio equipment, but is the recording clear and understandable? Did you add anything else to make your submission stand out?

Need Inspiration? Click below!

Need Inspiration? Click Me!

We recommend checking out these episodes for more storytelling inspiration:

Need a sample of what we’re looking for? Check out this sample story we’ve prepared. We’ve broken it down into the SPAR framework to give you an idea of how to structure yours!

SITUATION

About a year ago, I was assigned to my first big project. We were in a team of about 10 people, and our job was to come up with a marketing campaign for this new product our long-time partner was launching. Since it was my first project, I was all fired up and excited. I knew I had the skills to succeed

PROBLEM

—but it quickly became clear to me that one of the more senior members on the team wasn’t happy that I was there. It seemed like he thought I was still too junior to take on a project that big…

My ideas were often passed over; I never seemed to get a say in anything—and any time I did try to do something, the more senior members of my team would take over to do it their way. They even started to fuss over the emails I’d write for our clients. Needless to say, my confidence took a big hit.

ACTION

It was around this time a friend recommended I check out the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast. She had started listening to it in 2019 and thought that I might find something helpful from listening. I started with the episode that seemed closest to my situation: How to End Micromanagement Once and For All with Lia Garvin.

And the one thing that really struck me was when Lia suggested trying to be curious about why they were micromanaging. Her key phrase was, “I want to better understand.”

It took a lot of courage to have that conversation, but I knew that things weren’t going to get any better if I didn’t do it. I sat down with that senior member and one thing I said was, “I want to better understand why people are so particular about the emails I’m writing for this project.” It turned out that the important client we were dealing with was known to be a stickler. They wanted things done a certain way—and only that way. 

So then, I made a commitment to him: I would run things by him first and keep him updated on all my progress. I also told him that I’d appreciate his feedback, and that I was glad to be able to learn from him—because he really did have a lot of experience I could learn from. It did turn out that I wasn’t as ready as I thought I was.

He greatly appreciated my honesty, and in the process, our relationship transformed. It was still a difficult project, and it wasn’t pleasant at all to hear his critical feedback or do the extra work of giving him progress updates… but he became more open to my ideas now that I understood the bigger picture of the project. I wasn’t afraid to run my ideas by him, and even though he’d turn some of them down, I knew that he wasn’t doing it because he hated me. 

RESULT

As a result, by the end of the project, I felt comfortable turning to him for advice—and he even started asking me for my thoughts, which was something I never would’ve imagined happening. Since then, he’s become my biggest mentor and advocate. I can always count on him to build me up, coach me, and volunteer my name for the important projects at work. He even proactively advocated for me, such that he was one of the big reasons why received a big promotion this year.

Aug 19
0

988: How to Elevate Your Status and Command Respect at Work with Alison Fragale

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Alison Fragale reveals the keys to improving others’ perceptions of you.

You’ll Learn

  1. The critical missing piece for your advancement
  2. Why your response to “How are you?” matters more than you think
  3. The quickest way to get others to promote you

About Alison

Alison Fragale is the author of LIKEABLE BADASS: How Women Get the Success They Deserve and the Mary Farley Ames Lee Distinguished Scholar of Organizational Behavior at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill Kenan-Flagler Business School. As a research psychologist, award-winning professor, international keynote speaker, and author, she is on a mission to help others — especially women — use behavioral science to work and live better. Her scholarship has been published in the most prestigious academic journals in her field and featured in prominent media outlets such as The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, Financial Times, Boston Globe, and Inc. She lives in Chicago with her husband and three children, who are all named after professional athletes.

Resources Mentioned

Thank You, Sponsors!

Alison Fragale Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Alison, welcome.

Alison Fragale
Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m excited to be chatting with you because you’re going to teach us how to become likable badasses. That sounds like something I think that we want. What’s the scoop here?

Alison Fragale
I think we should. You know, I will say when I put Likable Badass on the cover of my book, I get the same reaction from everybody. It’s, “Yes, that’s what I’m going for.” And people want it, and there’s a good reason that they want it, because there’s a lot of science behind how it actually helps us.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, lay it on us. So, what is the benefit associated with, well, first of all, just define a picture of what that means, and then share with us the research on how that’s beneficial for us.

Alison Fragale
I’m going to take one step backward, and I’m going to introduce something that I care a lot about and I think everyone should care a lot about, and that is the idea of status. And status is how much we’re respected and regarded by other people. So, if we have high status, that would mean our audiences have high respect and regard for us.

And I know from my work and others, it’s what we call a fundamental human need. It’s something all human beings seek, and life is so much better with it, without it. Work is better. Life is better. Our physical and mental health, our ability to gain power at our job, to use the power we have, all these things. So, status is really important for us to understand and understand how we can influence ours.

Where does Likable Badass come in? Because when people look at another person and decide, “Do I respect that person?” when you do that to other people, those decisions that you make, that we all make, those aren’t random. They follow a pattern. There’s two things we look for when we’re evaluating another person to decide how much do we value them. And one thing we look for is how capable they are.

I often talk about that as our assertiveness. Not just, “Can we assert ourselves?” but a whole of skills that if I give you a task, can you get it done? Can you do it well? Are you competent? Are you organized? Are you efficient? Are you persistent? And so, if you have those qualities, I know if I put something in your hands, it’s going to get executed well and I value that. So, I’m going to respect you because of that. So, capability, assertiveness, that’s important.

And then the other one, is our warmth, or do we care about people other than ourselves? And that’s really important too, because I’m going to value people who aren’t just out for themselves, who are going to use their talents to benefit me. And so, if we see somebody who’s very caring and other-oriented, we value that too. We respect it.

So, those two dimensions in psychology are really critical. In fact, we call them when we create a little XY axis out of them, we call them the interpersonal circle of person perception. And “Likable Badass” is my catchy term for the space in the circle we all want to be, which is we all want people to see us as very capable and very caring.

Because when we do that, that’s how we gain status, that we respect people who are good at getting stuff done and who care about other people.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. And I suppose that, so is it fair to say these are the two dominant things that make us perceive a person as being respect-worthy, these are the two?

Alison Fragale
Correct.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Now, I suppose there might be some third elements that are idiosyncratic to individuals. I was watching this comedy movie, where this guy was shocked and appalled that his best friend was a Republican, for example. So, I’m thinking, like, there might be certain dimensions of division or stereotyping that can cut across this for people. It’s like, “Okay, you’re very capable and you are very warm, but I still don’t like you for…” insert fill-in-the-blank personal bugaboo. Is that fair to say?

Alison Fragale
Yes, although I think you can actually probably shoehorn most of these judgments into capability and warmth somehow. So, I kind of question how good of a human you are. Or maybe I question your intelligence, because, “How could you possibly believe this is true or that is true?”

So, under capability, for example, is also competence and intelligence. So, it’s a circumflex, and there’s characteristics all the way around it. But a lot of times, we can take most of the judgments we have and say, “They do reflect on either how good I think you are at what you do, how smart you are, or how nice and caring you are.”

Again, I’m sure if we played the game long enough, you could find something, but even a political affiliation that people could say, “I don’t really respect that person,” you think, “Well, why don’t I respect that?” And it could come to something about, “Well, you can’t be that smart if you believe that’s true,” or, “You can’t care about other people if you’re willing to let A, B, and C happen.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. So, our deeply held beliefs about a political affiliation, or any sort of an issue, then colors the extent to which we think that they are likable and capable. And so, I guess the opposite of a likable badass would be a jerk-idiot. We’ll hyphenate it. Yeah, I sure don’t want to be one of those, or either of those.

Okay, so there we have it. Status is a fundamental human need, and if we are in the likable badass zone, then good things come to us. I guess we feel we have status, and that feels good, that human need is being met. We feel respected, which is cool and enjoyable. And so, what does it do for us in terms of our career, our progression, our being awesome at our jobs?

Alison Fragale
One thing it does is it opens up all of the things that we tend to want at work. It makes all those things easier to achieve. So if you want to climb a career ladder, if you wanted to have more responsibility, if you wanted to be paid more, all of those things are forms of power, which is related to status, and I spend a lot of time helping people understand the distinction.

Power is controlling resources that people value. So, if I get to spend my budget without having to ask for permission, if I get to make a decision about a work product without having to ask for permission, if I get to review your performance, if I get to hire and fire, all these kinds of things are resources that we value and we control. If I get to come and go as I wish at work, have autonomy, work from wherever, that’s a resource.

So power is also another fundamental human need. People want to be in control. The lack of control of your environment also damages our life satisfaction and our physical and mental health. But status, being respected, is a gateway to getting all of these other good things. Not only is it good to possess in and of itself and it feels good, it also is how we get the power and the resource control that we want. And not everybody wants power in the same way, but everybody wants control over their environment. Again, even if it’s just power over self, “I want the autonomy to be able to work when and where I want or how I want.”

So, we focus a lot on power when we try to help people navigate their careers. A lot of on “How do you advance?” But the piece of the conversation that I don’t think we’re having as explicitly as we should is, “Well, how do you get those things?”

And the way I started was teaching people negotiation skills, which are important. You think, “If I can negotiate really well, I can negotiate myself into the career that I want.,” and that’s helpful. But also, it helps if your audience really values what you’re bringing to the table, that if you’re trying to get something from somebody and that person who’s looking at you, rightly or wrongly says, “I don’t really value you, and I don’t really respect you very much.”

You’re kind of sunk at that point, there’s very little you could say or do from a strategy standpoint that’s going to get you a good outcome, because we don’t give rewards to people that we don’t respect. So, it opens doors for us to being able to control our environment at work in whatever way we want to do it, and that is also really valuable.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Alison, conceptually, that seems to add up and check out like, “Yep, sure, that follows.” Could you point to any particular studies or data that show perhaps just how eye-popping-ly powerful this status stuff is?

Alison Fragale
One of my favorites, looked at interruptions in a work group. and looking at gender and interruptions in the work group. So, this is a group, they had three men, six women, intact group, worked together for years, and the researchers studied the group, and they looked at who got interrupted and who spoke. And they found that everybody spoke at a proportional rate, and so everyone had about equal airtime.

But not surprisingly, the women were getting interrupted disproportionately, much more so. And an interruption is a marker of low status. So, when someone interrupts you, they literally silence you. And so, when you are cut off from even speaking, you can’t have influence. And so, who gets to talk and who gets cut off is a subtle way that we communicate whose ideas are worth hearing and whose aren’t, whose do we respect. So, an interruption is a status, a marker of status.

So, they find the women are cut off, and that is not necessarily surprising, given what you know that gender affects status. But what might be surprising is when I tell you the group, and the group in question is the United States Supreme Court. So, they found, this was the court at the time when Elena Kagan, Sonia Sotomayor, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg were three justices. Those were the three out of the nine. They were interrupted disproportionately more than their male colleagues.

And so, this idea of, “Do they all have power and equal power?” Yes. “Do some of them might have more status than others, in this case, coming from gender as a determinant of status?” Yes. And so, what we see is that even when people have a lot of power, if they do not have the status, that power doesn’t necessarily raise their status, and it doesn’t necessarily protect them from being treated in these lower-status ways.

And so, I always say, if the power of being a Supreme Court justice is not enough to guarantee that everybody would respect you and listen to what you have to say, then we can’t expect that any of us are going to have it. So, we’d like to think that power, being in charge of stuff, is going to make everyone respect us, but what you see in that study is it doesn’t, that direction doesn’t work. The other direction of, “I respect you and, therefore, I give you power,” we see a lot more evidence of that.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. But I guess a follow-up is, is it the fellow justices interrupting the female Supreme Court justices, or is it attorneys?

Alison Fragale
Both. Both.

Pete Mockaitis
I mean, I would be, “Whew!”

Alison Fragale
Yeah, it’s transcripts of these cases that appear before the Supreme Court. So, it’s both the justices and the people who appear before them. Yes, both.

Pete Mockaitis
I would not dream of interrupting a Supreme Court justice, male or female, which is maybe a whole other dynamic about personality in the mix there. So, yeah, I could chew on that one for a while. So then, point made, that there’s quite the distinction between power and status. And it’s interesting how much I really, really don’t like being interrupted.

And so I like that you’re pointing out that, okay, well, yeah, that’s really kind of like a fundamental human dimension is going on, as opposed to I’m just a cranky jerk. So, thank you for that. So then now unpack for us how having status results in great things unfolding for us from a data-driven perspective?

Alison Fragale
We see the status power link, which is, if I have status, so if we look at the groups, there’s been studies done in all kinds of work groups, groups in the military, civilian groups, and they measure at time one who are the really respected people in the group, and that’s a status measure.

And then at time two, they’re measuring who ends up, ultimately, getting the power at some point, like who gets to be the leader, who gets to be in charge. And in all those studies, what you see is that strong status power link, that the people who are the most respected at time one and time two end up being the people who get to be in charge. And I think, I really want to point this out, because not everybody necessarily wants a promotion, not everybody necessarily wants more money or more work. But, one, people do like autonomy over their lives and control, and that power and status are both resources.

Those resources do not just need to be used to benefit you. Those resources can be used to do all kinds of good things for the world. So, if I have power, I could use my power to hire the people who I think deserve to be hired but often get overlooked. I could use my power to elevate somebody in the organization who does great work but may not necessarily get the recognition. And so, power is a resource that we can do a lot of things with. So, that science goes that way.

And then the other piece is that if somehow you had managed to be one of the, you’d think, lucky few who didn’t navigate status very well, but managed to kind of get ahead in your career to the point where you were a person who had a lot of power, you were kind of a Supreme Court justice of your domain, you might think, “Oh, okay, well, I’ve made it, right? I’ve arrived,” but actually, and this is what I’ve spent a lot of my own research doing, we find things get worse for people.

And what we find is that when a person is in that situation, it’s a miserable existence.

Pete Mockaitis
It sounds like it.

Alison Fragale
Yeah. Well, you look at research on incivility, so that’s going to be the mistreatment that kind of goes below the radar. You’re not officially harassing somebody, but you’re doing something that makes them feel terrible. You roll your eyes, you cut them out of the information flow, you make some kind of snide comments about them, that kind of stuff. That stuff is disproportionately directed toward people who have power but don’t have status. And we see at work data that people, when they’re treated that way, they exit if they can.

So, I’m really struck by a lot that’s been reported lately about the exodus of senior women from organizations at greater rates than junior women. Because gender affects status, the idea of being a senior woman raises the idea that some of those people are in these low-status power holder positions. They control a lot of stuff and people don’t respect them.

And then we see they’re treated uncivilly and no one likes that, and so if they have an option, they eject, and we see people, senior women leaving at greater rates than they’re actually being promoted. So, it’s both the good things that can happen to you with it, and the bad things that could befall you without it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Understood. So, lay it on us, Allison, status, how do we get it at work?

Alison Fragale
Some of the things that affect our status are things that are outside of our control and some things that we just might inherit, if you will.

So, it could be gender, race, an accent, an ethnicity, a religion, all these kinds of things, and they don’t have any bearing on our competence or our caring, but people think they do. We give them meaning and, therefore, some people get more automatic respect than others just because of how they look or show they up. So that’s part of it, and that’s why, so some people getting status is actually a little more work, and I want to acknowledge that because status comes from these two places.

But the part that’s very positive is that a huge amount of our status is very controllable. It comes from how we show up when we interact with human beings. And the part that we can control has been shown to have a bigger impact on how respected we are than the parts we can’t control.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good news.

Alison Fragale
Yes, it’s very good news, but what it means is that if we have some of these things that we can’t control that aren’t working for us, we want to be really sophisticated about controlling the controllables. So, here’s the deal. Status exists only in somebody else’s head. It’s their belief about you. So, what do we need to do to influence our status? We need to influence what they believe about us. Feels daunting, but psychology, this is what we study. We say, “Look, you can have a lot of effect on your audience.” It’s controlling the messaging that your audience gets.

So, everything that everyone in the world knows about you at this point in time has come from one of two communication channels. One is information you have put out in the world. Someone sat next to you on an airplane, they listen to your podcast, they know you from being your neighbor, whatever it is, they read about you online, social media, whatever. Those are things that you have originated, put them in the world and people see them.

So, one is we have to control that channel. And what I mean by that is making sure that we are putting information out there that says to individuals and the world at large, “I’m very capable and I’m very caring.” Sometimes that is being willing to self-promote to talk about positive things in a way that feels authentic and comfortable, and we can explore that piece of it. Sometimes it means not doing dumb stuff. So, there’s some stuff that we do that there’s a logic to it. We think, “This is going to be really good for my brand,” and it’s not.

So, one example would be hiding our successes. This is why self-promotion is effective. Hiding our success. Something good has happened to you. You’ve gotten an award, or you’ve hit a milestone on your podcast, or something like this, and you think, “I’m proud of that. That’s good. But I’m not going to go and tell people about that because I don’t want to be seen as a bragger. I want to be humble. And if I’m humble, you’ll like me more.” That’s how I convey the whole likable piece.

But if we’re chatting, and you have some good news and you don’t share it and then you leave, and I hear later, because the grapevine is efficient, that you didn’t tell me, is my first thought, “Oh, my God, Pete is so humble”? No. People think, “Why didn’t Pete tell me? Are we not that close? Or does Pete think I’m so petty I couldn’t be happy for him?”

And so, what happens is when we hide our successes, we actually do it because we think it’s going to get us at least the likable part, not the badass part, but it’s going to get us the likable part. But the research shows it isn’t actually true. It’s not what people infer when they hear that you had something good and you didn’t tell them. You actually end up being seen as capable when the news is released, but it damages the relationship.

So, a better strategy is, why is sharing our success actually a good thing for all that we’ve been told about telling our stories and self-promoting? It’s because you are seen as warmer when you are forthcoming with people and you’re seen as more capable because you’ve told them about the good things. So, that would be an example of starting to control your channel, to not do something that you think is helping your reputation or your brand, but the science shows that it’s not.

Pete Mockaitis
If being forthcoming is a desirable attribute, we probably also want to share sort of major happenings in general, otherwise we’re not forthcoming, whether maybe something sad has occurred in your life, and then they find out about that through the grapevine and they say, “Oh, I was just talking to him. How come he didn’t bring that up?” I guess that same phenomenon could occur there.

Alison Fragale
That’s right. So, again, self-disclosure, you want to be authentic about it and decide where you want to draw the line. Some forms of self-disclosure help build our status. Other forms might not. You might share something personal to build the rapport and the warmth. But then you might say, “I’m going to tell you some things I’m not really good at,” and that’s self-deprecation.

But that is a behavior that is not status-building. Because when we cut ourselves down, we’re basically saying, “I’m not as capable as you think I am,” and we are the experts on ourselves. So, when people cut themselves down, they are seen as less capable as a result, on whatever dimension they just deprecated. But we often do it because it’s socially cohesive.

Cutting yourself down is a form of humor, and many comedians, that’s they’re bread and butter, right? They make fun of themselves, and we laugh, and it is a form of humor. So, being funny is actually cohesive, it builds warmth, but humor at your own expense doesn’t. And so, I think it raises the idea of when I talk about controlling a channel of communication, the balance between being authentic and being strategic.

Because you might say, “I had a really bad day today and I really messed something up. And I didn’t do a good job and I got really bad feedback at work.” And the question is, like, “Do I share it? Do I cut it? Or do I keep it to myself?” And I think everybody gets to make their own decision about what they want to put out there and what they don’t.

But what I’ve had to coach myself on is a lot of the self-deprecating I was doing was done solely for the purpose of trying to be funny. I mean, I believed it to be true, but I was like, “Oh, this is my way of being funny.” Not fully appreciating that that form of humor wasn’t having the effect that I was hoping it would have, which is people would respect me more because of it. And so, now I’m more thoughtful that, if I’m seeking advice or support from somebody, and I say something has gone really wrong, I will tell them because I want their advice or their support in the moment.

But there might be other moments where my goal in the interaction is to show up in a way that’s going to get people to respect me, and I might say, “I’m going to tell a different truth, maybe something that is also equally true, but showcases my capabilities and my concern for others a little bit more.” So, controlling our channel is going to be a big one. And then thinking about easy ways that we can show up to other people and showcase how capable and caring we are.

And what I always tell people is, “Look for opportunities to solve other people’s problems using your unique skills and talents, things you are naturally good at, you really enjoy, and doesn’t take you very long to solve their problems. If you do that in life, and that’s all you do, you will build your status because as soon as you solve their problem, you’re capable, and you’ve spent your effort to solve something that matters to them, so you’re caring.”

But those things can sometimes be done in seconds. So, introducing two people, for example, is a form of solving somebody’s problem, “Hey, let me connect you with somebody who can do the thing that you’re looking for.” And I’m showing that my network is really valuable and it’s really robust, and I’m using my network for your benefit.

Taking something you like. I was very struck recently by a woman that I saw in an event, and she was the unofficial-official Instagram documentarian of this event, and she was taking videos and everything, but she said, “You know, I love being on Instagram, but I think a lot of my older senior colleagues don’t value this. They think it’s, like, personal and silly and it doesn’t really matter. And so, so how do I balance, like, that I really care about that with the fact that that they don’t?”

And I said, “You know, I would love someone who knew better than I did, to say, ‘Hey Allison, I know you’re on social. I have some ideas about how I could make your social more fun for you or more effective or better and, like, increase the impact of your messaging. Could I help?’” Well, all of a sudden, “Oh, sure.” Now it’s not just this silly thing you do. It’s you using your natural talent to help me.

And a lot of those things are fun for people and they’re easy.I always joke, you can buy someone’s coffee if you meet for coffee, but it’s a pretty forgettable act. It doesn’t showcase your capability. But if you make an intro or you give someone feedback on their Instagram, it’s not that much more effort than buying the coffee, but it’s allowing you to showcase yourself in a way that is more unique while still helping them.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so these fundamental principles make good sense. We can control the channel, make sure the good stuff gets out there and we don’t hold it back, as well as being helpful. We’re helping people, thus being warm, and we’re helping them using our unique skills, thus being capable at the same time. So, I think those are great things to get our radar up and being on the lookout for such opportunities. You mentioned introductions are great. Do you have any other super favorite things that anyone can do that are great?

Alison Fragale
A hundred percent. So, first, always have good answers to what I call throwaway questions. When people say to you, “What’s new? How is it going? How’s work?” A lot of times we just throw those questions away, “It’s fine. I’m busy. It’s good. How are you?” And at that moment, someone’s giving you a chance to tell your story. Now, do they want a 30-minute answer to that question? They do not.

But something that is better than “fine” or “busy” but gets them interested, like, “I had a great win at work today.” Something that sparks a little curiosity and gets them to actually pause and ask you a little bit about your story. That can be a really good one is, don’t throw those questions away.

The second one is to use the updating that you’re naturally doing as a course of your job to build your status. So, we often have to give people status updates. Use those kinds of things as storytelling opportunities. And one effective way to do that is, in psychology it’s called dual promotion, I call it brag and thank. Anytime you have an update, you’re going to talk about a success or a win that you’ve had, and you’re also going to talk about the great work of other people who helped that win be possible. I’m telling you something great about me and I’m also telling you something great about other people.

That turns out to be a really winning strategy because when we promote ourselves, we’re seen as more capable, and when we shine the spotlight on somebody else, we’re seen as more caring. So anytime we can put those two things together in a message, whether it’s an email, or stopping somebody in the hall, that’s going to be a really easy one for us to be able to do.

And then the other, I’m going to kind of go over into this second channel, because if you remember, I told you there were two channels of communication. One is us and the other is things other people have said about us. So, everything that’s known about Pete is things Pete has put out into the world or things that people have heard or known about you and they’ve repeated. And so, a lot of our status is not built by us. It’s built by other people talking about us in positive ways or they could tear our status down if they’re talking about us in negative ways.

But if someone else is talking about your status in a positive way, they’re doing a lot of your work for you, and they can brag about how capable you are all day long, and there’s no risk to you.

So, one simple thing is finding ways to meet more people. I always say people cannot sing your praises if they do not know you exist. And so, this whole idea that we’ve always been told to network and to meet more people, put yourself in situations to meet more people. There’s a million ways to do it and I’ll tell you the stories if you’re curious, but I’ll just start with this.

Some of the people who have been the most helpful in my career, I met them in airports, like strangers that you have a random conversation with, and next thing you know, within five minutes, something gets uncovered and you’re like, “Huh, okay, maybe we should stay in touch,” and you stay in touch and then the relationship forms.

The other one that I want to offer because it’s just the right way to be, and it’s also very valuable, is the easiest way for you to get someone else to go build your status for you is for you to build theirs first because human behavior is reciprocated. So, a simple daily practice that we can have, to be awesome at our job and build these relationships, is every time you observe someone and you think, “Wow, that was great,” whatever it was, tell somebody, put it out into the world, promote them, and say, “This person is amazing.”

It feels great to do it, but also because the grapevine is efficient, they will eventually find out that you were saying nice things about them, and human behavior is reciprocated. So, one of the easiest ways to build other promoters is for us to just cultivate a daily practice of promoting other people first. So, I have a rule and I always say, if I have a nice thought about somebody in my head, I do not let the thought die there. I put it out into the world somewhere. And that alone, as a simple practice, if that was all a person ever did, would garner them a lot of reciprocal other promotion in spades.

Pete Mockaitis
So, let’s say I have a nice thought like, “Oh, my buddy, Dave, is so funny.” I mean, I’m not sure where I would park that. I could just text Dave, say, “Hey, I really appreciate you. You’re funny.” Or, I mean, I could put a glowing message on a post on LinkedIn, he might be like, “Pete, what’s going on here, dude?” I don’t know. Where would I park that?

Alison Fragale
Yeah, so I think it depends on the context. One, sometimes I can just go back to the person to say, like, “I was thinking about this today, and it, you know, what your humor is just always like such a joy and cracked me up I was thinking about that.” So that could be appropriate. It doesn’t necessarily have to be, “I do it the moment I think of it.” Like, if I have a thought right now, I’m not going to hop off the podcast and go do something else, but I keep it there and I think about where it has an opportunity.

One of the things I often do is I’ll think about a mutually beneficial introduction that I could make, and when I make that introduction and I think, like, “Dave is hilarious. And what would advance Dave’s interests? And how would him being a funny guy actually be value-added to somebody else?” Even if it’s just two people who have a shared personal connection, I think they would really, really like to be friends.

So, I could introduce Dave to my other funny friend and that could be it, right? And so now, even if that intro goes nowhere, at least you’ve put to the other person in the world, “Hey, Dave is this funny guy.”

And I think when we do those kinds of things, a lot of them don’t go anywhere at the time. If it’s somebody you work with, then you have a lot of opportunities to think about this in terms of hallway conversation and things like that. The next time you’re in a meeting and let’s say you work with Dave, and Dave’s in the meeting, you could think about amplifying something Dave said, or to think about, “Dave is really good at doing X because Dave’s always the person who can put somebody else at ease. And so, I think we should be thinking about letting Dave lead this because he has great skills.”

So, it doesn’t have to be instantaneous. It could be just back to that person. But to think about, “If I think positively about this, who else would benefit from that person’s skills in a way?”

So, again, most people have a lot of positive thoughts about people and they aren’t using those positive thoughts to build that person’s status, and that’s an oversight that we should correct as much as we can.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s super. And when you talk about introductions, I’m also thinking about just when you happen to be at in-person events. I remember I was at a funeral banquet, and someone was just introducing me and others to each other, and it didn’t take long. It’s like, “Hey, this is Pete. He has a tremendous podcast which helps people do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He’s a thought leader, this and that.” I was like, “Oh, well, thank you.” It was like, “Oh, I like you more!”

Alison Fragale
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
And then vice versa, the person who introduced me, “This person has a tremendous Star Wars memorabilia collection.” It’s just kind of fun and interesting. I mean, I’m not super into Star Wars memorabilia, so I don’t necessarily think that that person with a Star Wars memorabilia is extra amazing. But I’m more interested, like, “Oh, wow, huh, a collector. Okay. How did you get into that?” And so, it just seems like everybody wins when we just give a little bit more positive, good detail about who is this person when we introduce each other.

Alison Fragale
Exactly right. You’ve got it. It doesn’t take much. And even with something like Star Wars memorabilia, you might say, “This is the person who knows more about the Star Wars, like, canon and all the memorabilia than any person I’ve ever met.” And so, you would at least then respect some capability. It’s not a capability you would need to have yourself, but you’re like, “Huh, someone had to probably dedicate some actual effort, right? And so, now I see them as a more capable person, even if their skillset is not what I need.”

And you’re right, that we can do that quickly, we can do it authentically, and we can do it in person, we can do it over email, and just thinking about those positive things that we can say when we have our moment can be a great start to being able to build other people’s status for us. And then to your point, you said, “Oh, I had that moment where I thought more positively of them.”

I just had an email when my one of my oldest kids went to a Sleepaway Camp. He got an injury. I was emailing with the camp director to make sure the injury wasn’t going to keep him from being able to participate in camp, and it wasn’t. But when the camp director wrote back, he basically said, “By the way, I just got to tell you, like, how much I have really loved getting to know your son this year. What a leader he is among his peers. What a huge asset he is to camp.” It’s like two sentences.

But I observed, I was like, “Oh, I really like this guy now.” And so, I thought if the email had come the next day saying, “Our camp needs money,” I guarantee you I would have written a check and probably a bigger check than I would have written without that email. And so, I thought, “Oh, he complimented my kid. Oh, okay.” That makes me think he’s really smart because everyone thinks our kids are brilliant and “Oh, how nice.”

So, when I have these moments, like you had at the funeral luncheon or whatever, I unpack them to think, “Why did I feel so positively?” And the same, if I feel negative towards someone, “I like you as I think you’re an idiot.” What did they do? Because I don’t want to unintentionally be doing that thing. So that’s the armchair psychology that we all have in us, is unpack it when you experience it, because everyone else, we’re all like everyone, everyone else is just like us. So, if we felt that way, other people will too.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m curious, when we talk about doing self-promotion, what’s the right and the wrong way to do it? So, if someone says something like, “Oh, hey, how have you been?” It’s like, “Oh, I’m just absolutely crushing it. I’m going to have record-breaking income, maybe three or four mil this year.” It’s like, “Okay, good for you, dude, but this is kind of off-putting.”

So, I mean, one, based on your cultural context in the U.S. and some other places, sharing how much money you have, good or bad, is often kind of frowned upon and makes people uncomfortable. But in other cultural contexts, that’s sort of normative. How do we know some of the do’s and don’ts? We want to put the good stuff out there, but we don’t want to do it in an off-putting way.

Alison Fragale
So, look, this is where the art comes in of understanding your audience and thinking about what feels authentic for you. If it feels icky and you’re doing it as a strategy, I guarantee you it’s going to come across poorly. But if it feels natural, or it can start to feel more natural if you practice it a little bit, it’s better. First is, again, always think about, “Is there a way to do both? Say something good about myself and something good about another person.”

So, if I say, now the tone of voice, whatever that was, don’t do that thing again because that wasn’t going to work. But just the content of it, you know, the, “I’m on track to break three million, etc.” or, “I might have my best year ever, and I lead, as far as I can tell, the world’s best team. Like, this team is showing up in so many amazing ways, and I am just so excited about the success that I’m going to have and they’re going to have, and I don’t know how I got so fortunate.” Something like that where you can shine a spotlight on another person. That can be one way to do it.

The other is to say just a little bit and tease it and let someone else draw you out. Because if they’re asking you questions and you’re answering them, then it’s much more normative. Like, “How is this year compared to last year? Are you doing better?” And you say, “Yeah, I am doing better.” Then that doesn’t feel weird because you asked, but they have to make you curious about it. Like, “I just feel like things are really coming together at work in a great way that is making me really excited.” And you might be like, “Oh, well, what way?”

So, something that could pique a little bit of conversation, and then it’s not a dialogue. But another, you know, this is specific, but I’ll say the idea is to think about how to get that information out there under other purposes, like under the guise of other purposes. So, one example that I share with a lot of people is turning on your out-of-office message, which I’ve seen some people do really brilliantly, and it’s not a strategy I ever used, I still don’t use it as much or as brilliantly, but I’ve seen people, where whenever you’re out of the office, you turn on your message, “I’m gone. Please reach out to so-and-so. I’m back on this date.”

But other people have more flair in their out-of-office messages, and they communicate that the response will be delayed, but they say, “Here’s the exciting thing I’m doing.” Like, if you’re traveling to a conference, if you’re speaking at an event, if you’re, whatever it is, if you’re off talking to three clients, you can say, “Here’s what I’m doing,” and then add in some warmth, add in humor, add in some, “Here’s how I’m actually, like, the work that we’re doing is going to enable us to, like, grow in these markets is going to enable us to serve even more people who really rely on our product to be able to live their best lives,” or something like that.

And that’s an example of how you can start to use all your channels of communication. If you’re on social media, you can use your social media to talk about what you’re doing in a way that doesn’t feel as self-promoting as running around the office telling everybody, “Guess what I got to do?” or, “Here’s something,” you can just celebrate it.

Thinking about all those different ways to do it, but 100%, you have to know you and you have to know your audience because there’s not a script that’s going to say, “Oh, talk about it exactly in this way.” But the idea is if you don’t say anything about your capabilities, how will anyone ever actually know what they are?

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Well, before we hear about your favorite things, I want to quickly get your hot take on what about things like clothing, the fit of the clothes, the brands, or the up-dress, dress up, dress down-ness of them, and/or height, or vocal intonation, body language, posture, like these kinds of presentation things? How much of a status impact do they make?

Alison Fragale
They have a lot. They’re all channels. People are drawing conclusions from everything you put out into the world – your eye contact, your gestures, your tone of voice, your clothes, etc. Now, does that mean you can only speak in one way, that you should only gesture one way, you should only wear one outfit? Absolutely not. Authentic and strategic can coexist. But you should be aware, and this is one of the things I help people do, is understand all the different behaviors that are linked to status.

So, a common one is, “Why is it that the person who comes in the meeting and just yammers on about nothing all the time, always is considered so smart? It’s so annoying.” It is annoying. But it’s also from science, it’s true, that we associate quantity of communication, speed of responding, speed of speech as markers that somebody is more capable. And so, you don’t have to do those things, but you should understand the relationship.

And so, what I always say to people is, first is just do an audit of, “What signals am I putting out into the world?” And say, “Some of these signals are helping me show up as capable, some are helping me show up as caring, and some are actually doing neither, they’re taking me backwards.” Then the question is, “What do I do about these things, if any?”

I say you need to signal something in every as many interactions as possible that says, “I know what I’m doing,” and you need to signal something that says, “I care about other people.” But it doesn’t need to be all the signals, and you can have a couple that are counterproductive and still overcome them as long as you’re thinking about what else you would do to compensate.

So, I’m a really big apologizer. I say I’m sorry all the time for all kinds of things and just use the word. And I try to coach myself out of it. It was requiring way too much conscious effort and I was just getting annoyed, and every email was taking 36 minutes to write, because I’m like, “Oh, there’s an apology there. Oh, no, then what should I do with these exclamation points? They seem kind of, you know, not so strong either.” And like, then I got smiley faces. So, I said, “Forget it. And I’m going to do the apologizing. I don’t worry about it anymore.”

It’s a more submissive behavior, the opposite of assertiveness, but that’s okay because I have other things that signal capability. I happen to have some credentials that are good signals of credibility. I’m a professor, I have a PhD, things like this. And so, what I concluded was I have enough signals of assertiveness in the environments that I need to function, that I can have a couple of things that work against me that feel natural and authentic, and I can let them go.

So, that’s my general answer is. Those things do affect status. Yes, you should be aware of what the effects are. And then it’s for each individual to decide, “Do I want to change that or do I not?”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Alison Fragale
One that I will offer you here that relates to this is from Julia Child. “Never apologize for the food you serve. No one knows how it was supposed to turn out but you.”

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite book?

Alison Fragale
Deep Work by Cal Newport. I think his work really speaks to women and anybody else who is marginalized because we know that people who lack status are basically given the worst work. They’re given the non-promotable to do.

And so, I think the idea, the challenge of working deeply, and being able to work on things that matter, things that bring you joy, things that have high impact in the organization is harder for some people than others because they’re saddled with all the office housework. So, I really love Cal’s, all of his stuff, but Deep Work for that reason, because I think it has an important message for status, even though that’s not how he talks about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that people really seem to resonate with and connect with, an Allison original gem of wisdom?

Alison Fragale
Strategic and authentic are not opposites, that you can and should be both.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Alison Fragale
My website is a good place, AlisonFragale.com. When you’re on it, I have a free newsletter that I put out on Substack. It’s called “The Upper Hand” and it is behavioral science directed toward helping women advance. But as we talked about today, none of the things that I talk about are ever really only applicable to women. I talk about behavioral science that is tools people can use. So, if people are curious, it’s free. It’s on Substack. I write as often as I can, and I love sharing those kinds of ideas with people.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Alison Fragale
Ten, 10, 10. All right. Meet 10 new people. Make 10 small deposits, which is going to be an easy little thing you can do to show up as capable and caring, so, like, an introduction or solve their problems, something you could do that’s easy. Ten people, 10 small deposits, and promote 10 people to other people. So that was that tell them to say the good things that you think, and/or ask 10 people to promote you. Ask them to go build your status. That’s a scarier one that we haven’t talked about yet, but it’s really, really effective.

If you say to somebody, “Hey, person B really respects you. Will you go talk to person B and introduce me, talk me up, etc.?” So, 10, 10, 10. Meet 10 people, show up as capable and caring 10 times, same people, different, doesn’t matter, and promote 10 people, ask 10 people to promote you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Alison, thank you for your wisdom. You are a super ultra mega baller. See what I did there?

Alison Fragale
I did. I love it. I’ll take it. Hey, there’s another thing. One of my favorite studies in social psychology, self-serving interpretations of flattery. It’s why flattery always works, is because people think, “Done to another person that might be considered flattery but to me it’s just accurate.” So, self-serving interpretation, so you can flatter people all day long. They never get tired of it. I love it. You’re amazing.