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Ida del Mundo

Dec 19
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2024 GREATS: 925: How to Stop People-Pleasing and Feeling Guilty with Dr. Aziz Gazipura

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Dr. Aziz Gazipura explains the dangers of people-pleasing tendencies and shares actionable steps for overcoming it.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The massive costs of being a people-pleaser
  2. How to not feel guilty when saying no
  3. A surprising strategy to build your discomfort tolerance 

About Aziz

Dr. Aziz is a clinical psychologist and one of the world’s leading experts on social confidence. In 2011, Dr. Aziz started The Center For Social Confidence, which is dedicated to helping everyone break through their shyness and social anxiety.

Through confidence coaching, audio and video programs, podcasts, a detailed blog, and intensive weekend workshops, Dr. Aziz has helped thousands of people all over the world increase their confidence and lives out his mission: To help every person who is stuck in shyness liberate themselves to pursue the relationship, career, and life they have always dreamed of.

He lives in Portland, Oregon with his wife Candace and son Zaim.

Resources Mentioned

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Dr. Aziz Gazipura Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis

Could you kick us off with a dramatic tale about the dangers of people-pleasing?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yeah. Well, I don’t need to make anything up here. And it’s the kind of, like all good dramatic stories, it’s a slow build, where maybe it’s like imagine a character in a movie where they go out and have some drinks, and they really like it, and it just seems like a good time. And then, flash forward many years later, and they have the shakes in their hands because they have to have a drink of alcohol. And that’s actually what niceness is like, or people-pleasing, specifically.

So, you basically make a choice to not be yourself in order to smooth things over or be liked or be accepted. And maybe a classic tale would be you did it when you were young, you did it to fit in at school, you did it to fit in with family. And that was not all horribly off-kilter then. But then I talk to, man, dozens of people every week, where now they’re 37 or they’re 43 and they’ve done pretty good, like inauthenticity and fitting in works. It’s this somewhat adaptive strategy, but it works the way that that drink worked to take away your anxiety, but it doesn’t actually give you what you really want.

I was just speaking with a woman just two days ago, she’s about mid-40s, successful in her career, has a family, has a husband, and feels incredibly lonely, and doesn’t even really know what to change out there anymore because, “I have all the things.” And she’s lonely because no one, not even her husband, really knows her. And that might not sound bad. Some people might hear that and say, “I’ll take the family and the money and the career, and then I’ll be fine.”

But actually, when you get there, and you don’t feel like anything out there is going to change it, and inside you feel profoundly lonely, it’s a story of a lot of suffering. And it’s a story that hundreds of millions of people live out, and feel like they’re the only one, but they’re not.

Pete Mockaitis

So, can you make that all the more real and clear for us? To feel like no one really knows you, what might be some examples of the false impression others on the outside have in contrast to the reality that is within?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Well, the impression people have on the outside is what you learned will keep them close to you, and it might be different. And I call them the roles that you’re going to play. So, at work, you have a certain role that you play, “I need to be confident-sounding, in charge, certain with my partner. I need to be pleasing. So, what do they want me to be? I’ll agree to things that I think that they’ll want me to agree with. I’ll focus on the things that they want. We’ll talk about what they want.”

“I also know that they don’t like it if I’m irritable, or if I’m sad. So, I’m going to downplay that or hide that.” And that’s true for friends as well, “I got to be up. I got to be on. I don’t want to be boring. I don’t want to be a sad sack. I don’t want to bring people down. I don’t want to burden people with my feelings, and my woes, and my problems.” So, therefore, at work, you’re going to be that way. And inside you might feel nervous, you might feel insecure, you might question yourself but you don’t show any of that.

And that, people can tolerate a certain amount of inauthenticity at work. But then where it really starts to get to them is when they can’t even be themselves around their friends, their loved ones, their family. You got to hide it and pressure yourself, and so you can’t reveal that you’re feeling sad. You can’t reveal that you feel like something is missing. You can’t reveal any of these things. And that’s where the loneliness comes from for people.

And it might not be these big dramatic things, like, “I can’t reveal that I’ve secretly wanted to leave.” Even just, “I am feeling sad today,” and it’s so simple but it’s a world of difference when you have to keep it all inside, all hidden. And sometimes people, really good pleasers, and I know this because I lived this for many years, you’ll even hide it from yourself, “I’m not sad. Everything’s okay. I just have a stomach ache. I just am tired.”

And it becomes this vague thing that you don’t even know. You don’t even know where you are in all of it because then it’s scary to know what that is and maybe share it with others.

Pete Mockaitis

And so, this loneliness, what are the knock-on, follow-on consequences of that?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

There’s a variety of different studies around loneliness, but loneliness is pretty much associated with all negative health outcomes and a much shorter lifespan. That’s like the big hammer, right?

Pete Mockaitis

Yup, dying.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

And quality of life, but sometimes people hear that, and like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s about everything in life. Too much peanut butter kills you. You got to live.” But actually, not only is it a shorter life, but let’s just talk about the quality of life. And there’s the longest study in the history of human psychology, it’s decades. It’s been going so many decades that they’re now the second generation of people.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, Waldinger.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

This is the one done with Harvard students, yeah. And the short version is, it’s relationships. That’s what makes us feel good in life, that’s what makes us feel happy in life, that’s what protects us from hard times in life. And not just you got somebody in your house that’s your roommate. No, we’re talking about confidantes, real relationships, people where you’re in life together.

And so, the loneliness, the cost is you don’t have that, or you have a very limited amount of that, and that is the biggest determiner of true success, which, for everybody, I don’t care what they value in life. True success for everybody is actually to feel rich inside, like feel full of success, of love, of meaning, of resources. And so, you can have external success and feel empty inside, and not have the thing that we all really want, which is those real connections with people.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

But other than that, it’s great that we should just keep doing it.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, can you give us a ray of hope then, an inspiring tale of a people-pleaser reformed?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yeah, the ray of hope is people-pleasing is not who you are. It’s a pattern that you run. And that’s fantastic news because any pattern that you run you can change. It’s an active process, it’s a verb, like walking or eating. And so, you can put down the fork and no longer be eating. You can put down the people-pleasing pattern and no longer be pleasing. And you can still be very loved by more people than you could ever need to be loved by. And you could be more boldly yourself and actually enjoy who you are and stop trying to be somebody that you’re supposed to be for others.

And I think this is the biggest risk, this is the leap of faith, and that’s why I think people who read my books or work with me because there’s some part of them that says, “That sounds a little too good to be true. You’re saying I can be me, and have love, and belonging?” And the good news, the ray of hope is absolutely yes, and it’s on the other side of that risk, the other side of what we fear, which is, “If I’m really me, everything is going to fall apart, and no one’s going to love me.” But that’s the whole source of the problem to begin with.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, warm, loving relationships, longer life, higher quality of life, that sounds swell. And then your organization is called the Center for Social Confidence. Tell us about what that confidence picture looks like on the other side of the people-pleasing.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yes. Well, there is the outer layer, which I think we all may be focused on at first, which is, “I want to be more confident.” What does that mean? Well, that means I can be more bold, I can walk up to people and talk to them, I can initiate conversations, I can network with people, I can just walk into a room and not feel afraid of what people are going to think, I can really just be myself. That means more power in leadership, and influence, and impact.

You can share your idea more directly, more broadly. You can advocate for something. You can advocate for yourself, for your ideas, for your team. Also, that shows up in relationships and love. You can go approach someone that you really are drawn to, who you really want to spend your time and your life with, and you can let them actually see and know the real you. So, those are the outer observable effects.

And then the inner effect as a result of that confidence is that you feel like you belong in this world, and that sense of insufficiency, not enough-ness, and all the scarcity, there’s not going to be enough love, there’s not going to be enough people, like, that dissolves. And that is worth way more than all the promotions, and all the dates, and all the stuff but sometimes we have to start with that outer stuff, and then realize, like, “Wow, me just really feeling that peace inside, that is worth its weight in gold.”

Pete Mockaitis

Well, that does sound absolutely delightful, yes. So, lay it on us, how do we pull this off? I imagine it’s easier said than done.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura
Yes. So, the good news and the bad news. The good news is this is all possible, the ray of hope stuff we were just talking about. The bad news is you probably are going to feel like you’re going to die on the way there. That’s all. But it just feels that way because, let’s rewind, what is people-pleasing? People-pleasing is a survival strategy that you picked up that’s based upon an idea, a conclusion, that’s not even true. But the conclusion you came to is, “I’m not okay as I am. There’s something just me as I am being totally lovable, I don’t buy it.”

Maybe someone told you that. Maybe you interpreted that. Maybe someone wasn’t there for you. Maybe you were abused. I don’t know, but there is some messaging that you picked up, and you’re like, “Wow, just me being me is not enough, and so now I have to do something. And what I need to do is I need to observe you, and if I can keep you happy, then you’ll probably stick with me. And I got to observe if you’re upset, and make sure that I don’t do the things that upset you. I got to see what makes you smile, and make sure I do more of those.” And now a pleaser is born.

And so, it’s rooted in fear, in the fear of abandonment, fear or not surviving, “Because I’ll be left, I’ll be lost. So, now I’m going to live that out for much of my childhood but as a personality, as a whole life strategy.” And so, why it feels like you might die is because it triggers this kind of fight-flight survival response inside to challenge you, which is why most people don’t.

But if you get up to that, like, fed-up point enough, and you’re like, “Well, I don’t want to keep living this way. All right, let’s take the leap,” you don’t stay in dying forever. You don’t actually die but it feels very ungrounding because there’s a sense of certainty and familiarity in that way of being, and you are going to challenge that. That’s why most people don’t just say, “Oh, I’ll do it,” and then actually execute on it.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, so then what does the execution look like in practice? What are the step-by-steps? Do I just go give people a piece of my mind, Dr. Aziz, “Let me tell you what I really think”?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

So, I have two books on the subject. One is called Not Nice and the newer one that just came out is called Less Nice, More You. And I talk about the pendulum, where people who have been overly passive and pleasing at some point can swing, “Now, I’m going to let the world have it,” and that’s okay.

Maybe that’s a phase to go through but, ultimately, there is a set point that’s much more effective. And I think the key steps from a higher level are these. Number one, you have to decide that you no longer want to be so people-pleasing and nice. And that might seem like a strange step, but it’s like, “Isn’t that what we’re talking about?” Well, no, because many people have a lot of their identities wrapped in, “But being nice means I’m a good person, and I don’t want to be a bad person.” No one wants to be a bad person.

And so, the first thing we need to do is we need to upgrade our understanding of being people-pleasing is not the same thing as being kind, or generous, or loving, or whatever it is that you actually value as a human. And that people-pleasing is more of a compulsion and not a choice, and so you have to be giving, you cannot say no, and that can be very detrimental.

So, someone is struggling, you take an extra hour to support them seems kind, right? The nice person and the people-pleaser doesn’t have that choice, so they could be being eaten up inside. They’re all stressed.

Pete Mockaitis

Eaten up inside and bitter, they’re like, “This jerk is always hogging my life.”

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

“I got too much on my to-do list.” So, now you’re talking about resentment. So, the compulsion part of it, the “nice” person feels like they have to. And any time we feel like we have to do something, and we don’t want to in that moment, that’s a formula, a human formula for resentment. So, now we’re going to start that.

Now, the kind choice is like, “Okay, this person wants this. Do I want to give it? Does it feel right to give it?” And it doesn’t mean it’s comfortable. Your kid is sick or something is happening, and you’re just like, “You know what, but it feels right, it feels like I want to do it.” Then you do it, and you say, “I want to give it.” Then we won’t feel resentment.

Kindness, true kindness leaves a glow inside, you’re like, “I feel good about that.” Whereas, when we’re like, “I couldn’t say no. I mean, look at them, they need me.” And the nice person likes to create this elaborate world in which everybody is super dependent, like, “They would die without me. They would be, oh, my gosh, if I left this partner, or this boyfriend, girlfriend, they’d be devastated for years,” and they don’t even see how it’s a little bit of a…it’s a way that we’re trying to get some sense of significance, perhaps.

The truth is that people have many ways to meet their needs, and you’re just one of them, and you’re not the only one. So, yes, that’s exactly what you’re talking about. That’s the stew of resentment that can form. And so, back to this first step of, “I need to decide I’m not going to be so nice and pleasing” is actually an important first step because, otherwise, we remain in this pattern where this is the only way to be, this is the right way to be as a good person, everything else is bad. And then we will perpetuate that indefinitely.

Pete Mockaitis

And that decision, boy, it just seems like the distinctions and the commitments are so myriad in terms of the boundaries that we’re down with, in terms of “I am committed to doing this and being generous or loving in these domains. And I’m not so much down to do these other things.” It really kind of feels like we got to go, behavior by behavior, or relationship by relationship, when  we determine what that decision really means in practice.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura
Yeah, that’s a great point. And, yes, it is, and there’s a shortcut to doing that, which is it can be distilled into one question, which is an extremely liberating question but it also, if you’ve been living a people-pleasing life, can make you very uncomfortable. And the question is, “What do I want? In this situation, what do I want?”

And even just asking that can push a lot of the buttons for someone who thinks that that’s selfish, “Your life shouldn’t be about what you want. That’s the problem with the world, is too many selfish people.” But actually, we’re just talking about asking the question. You might still choose to say, “Well, what do I want? I want to not take care of my son.” “Well, he’s five and he needs someone tonight. So, you’re going to find a way to work with it.”

So, it doesn’t mean you instantly just, “I do whatever I want. I don’t even care about anyone.” It’s like, no, but you start that behind that question is not just the data of the answer. It’s actually caring about yourself just like you would with someone you love, “What do you want, honey? It doesn’t mean you get everything you want, but I want to know. I want to know. Maybe we can work with it. Maybe we need to compromise here. But what do you really want? And what do I really want?”

I was just talking with a friend earlier today, and he has some friends visiting out of town, they said, “Hey, we want to come have some dinner with you.” And he’s like, “Oh, that sounds good.” And then they’re like, “Oh, also, we’re flying out somewhere the next day. Can we spend the night at your place then we’ll go to the airport?” And he said, “Well, let me talk to my wife and we’ll make sure.”

So, he’s about to go talk to his wife, and he’s like, “Hold on a second. Before I even talk to my wife, what do I want here?” And that’s such so small, we could just steamroll right over the moment and go on with our lives, and that might seem so trivial but, man, you add up those trivial moments, that’s your whole day, that’s your whole week, that’s your whole life.

And you might say, “Well, that’s horrible. How could you not have your friends stay the night? They need a favor. What a bad friend.” Ah, now we’re looking at the roles of the rule of friend, and many people have extreme rules, “You must always say yes to a friend.” But instead, if you tune in and say, “You know what, it feels kind of, I don’t know, confining.” And he got curious about himself, “Why? Well, I was just hoping to have the one evening a week that I can spend with my wife, one on one. She’s so busy. I’m so busy. I just don’t really want to give that up.”

So, now all of a sudden, we discover that the saying no there is actually a loving act for himself, for his wife, for his relationship, so we’re prioritizing something else. We would not even discover that. Now he’s trying to please his friends, so he says, “Yes,” and then he’s feeling maybe his wife is going to be upset with him, so he’s trying to please her. And then the whole evening, he’s just anxious and secretly resentful, which is a disaster.

So, yes, we want to go, day by day, decision by decision, slow down and start to really ask, “What do I want here?”

Pete Mockaitis

That’s good. And what’s interesting is by surfacing that, and if you do make the choice, and maybe, well, one, I think that can generate kinds of creative options that you didn’t even think about to start with, it’s like, “Hey, you can come over between 9:30 and 10:00 p.m. and, yeah, it’ll get you to the airport on time.” And so, there it is. So, you had your cake and eat it, too.

Now, sometimes you can’t but then I guess if you do choose to make a sacrifice on behalf of another, I think you can do so all the more eyes wide open, it’s like, “I am choosing to do something for this other person, knowing it’s inconvenient for me, but because I value this relationship more than I value binging Netflix, or whatever I was in the mood to do that evening.”

And then, as you said, there is sort of a glow. You can feel good about that choice. You made a values-driven decision and chose that which is good in your value system above that which is expedient, and you did so, knowing full well the consequences that could flow from it.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yeah, I love that nuance. And sometimes people hear this, and they think you’re going to become this very stingy person, not just with money but with your time. And that’s actually not the case. It is very much more intentional and you’re linking it with your values. My younger son, who’s eight, we eat a pretty similar breakfast every morning. And one of the ingredients is from downstairs, and he doesn’t like to go downstairs because he’s afraid of whatever, monsters. That’s what lives when you’re eight years old, that’s what lives downstairs in the basement, is monsters.

And so, there was this time when we were trying to help him face his fear, but that one was just so kind of just an uphill battle, and I was like, “You know what, as a loving act, I’m really okay just going downstairs to get the thing. I’ll help him fight his fears in other places, and he doesn’t need to tackle every fear because his dad freaking is obsessed with confidence.”

So, I just decided that, and it’s this kind of sweet act of generosity. He’s not going to be eight years old forever. And when he’s a big hulking teenager and could care less about going anywhere in the house, then that’ll be a sweet memory.

And so, you can actually be really loving and generous in all these different ways. It’s just not coming from this pressure that you have to or else. I think that’s the biggest freedom.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, walk us through the next steps.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

All right. So, you’ve decided, “I don’t want to be nice,” and then you start to ask yourself, “What do I want?” Then the next step is going to be you do the things that are “not nice.” And that might be saying to your friends, “Hey, I’d love to see you. You guys can come. We’ll get some dinner. It’ll be awesome. And then you’re going to be staying near the airport or something. I want to have the evening to myself with my wife. It’s our one night and I really want to preserve that.” And it’s, “Oh, my gosh, so you’re saying no in that situation.”

Yeah, another not nice thing might be to inconvenience someone by asking them for something, “Can you help me with this?” or, “Can you do that?” There’s disagreeing with somebody, “Ooh, that’s real unpleasing of you.” So, maybe you have a different opinion, it’s relevant to something in business, a decision, whereby it feels high stakes and it’s important to share it.

It might even be just a different idea or preference that doesn’t even seem that important to share but you just share it instead of smiling, and saying, “Oh, yeah, me, too. Me, too.” You’re like, “Yeah, I actually like the person that you seem to dislike. Hmm, that’s interesting.” So, whatever it is, it’s just a small smattering of the potential behaviors of you being more you, more authentic, more real, more bold.

That’s all the “not nice” behaviors. And every single one of those is going to produce probably some level of anxiety at first because that’s me being testing out what could happen, which is going to be some sort of calamity, “If there’s conflict, the relationship is over. If I say no, the person is going to never do anything for me ever again. If I ask for what I want, they’re going to hate me.”

So, we have these dramatic predictions, and we test them out. And it’s a form of exposure, really, like behavioral training where we need to do the steps, which tends to bring about the discomfort. And then there is another step about working with that, but I’ll pause there to see if there’s anything you wanted to ask about this step.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s good. That’s good. And what’s funny, though, is the asking for help, we think that’s not nice or imposing or burden, yadda, yadda, but, in reality, when I’m asked for help, I often am delighted to be trusted, relied upon, to be confided in on the matter, and I really like it. And I guess not all the time. Some things are like, “I really don’t want to do that.”

But I think that’s interesting that sometimes these not-nice behaviors are, in fact, what people really value. Maybe some people don’t get people who disagree or challenge them enough.

So, it’s interesting what we think might be not nice could, in fact, be just what the doctor ordered on the other side of the table.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yeah, and that highlights something really important, which is this strategy of people-pleasing is not a very well thought out effective model of human relations. It’s like, “This is the best predictors and most intelligent, socially intelligent model I can…” No, it’s a cautionary model. It’s, “Hey, any of those things might be a problem so don’t do any of them. That person might respond well to that but they might not, so just, no, don’t.” So, it’s not a very sophisticated or intelligent interpersonal model. It’s just safety-oriented.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, thank you. You got some more steps?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yes. So, after you spoke up, you did the thing, and you’re freaking out inside, then it’s time to do the work, which is to upgrade something inside of yourself. That’s where the real transformation is going to occur. People think the real transformation comes from the action, which is part of it, but then we have to upgrade, otherwise we just keep beating our head against the wall. And you can leave that situation, you say, “Oh, I feel so guilty I told them no. I’m so bad.”

If you just grind yourself through that meat grinder for two days, and then you come out of it, you haven’t probably really learned anything. And so, the next time someone asks you for something, and you think, “I should say no because that’s being less nice,” then you might remember the meat grinder, and you’re like, “I don’t want to do that.” And so, then you probably just go back to the old pattern.

So, to really change, after we say no, and then all that stuff starts to come up, then we get to upgrade our map of relationships. And there’s one that I really love, which is I call your bill of rights, so what you’re allowed to do, and the rules, basically. And so, when you feel really guilty, you can examine it, and say, “Wait a minute, what rule did I break? What did I do that was so bad there?” “Well, you said no to people.” “Okay, so what’s the rule?” “You should never say no.” “Well, to who? My friends?” “Yeah, you should never say no to your friends’ requests.”

“Okay. Wow, that’s a pretty extreme rule. Is that how I’m going to live my life? Are there some downsides to that one?” And then we upgrade with much more healthy, and nuanced, intentionally chosen approaches to life, rules for life. So, for example, you might say, and this is where the bill of rights is, “I have a right to say no to requests.” And that might sound like a simple statement, but if you really start to believe that and live that, that’s a whole different life, not just in terms of the behaviors but how you feel on a daily basis.

I don’t think we can totally upgrade these in a vacuum, where we just sit down with a sheet of paper, and we upgrade our bill of rights, and then we venture forth into the world, and everything is perfect. No, we kind of have to go through this process where we take the action, we feel bad, and then that’s the motivation to say, “Whoa, it’s time for something different.”

But if we do it, and we change, and we upgrade, it’s like a step-by-step. It’s almost like pulling out the faulty coding of the pattern and putting in a new coding, new software, that runs so much better. And it’s the software of more authenticity, more boldness, more actually being you in the world. And it turns out to work a lot better on your system than the nice people-pleasing software.

Pete Mockaitis

And it’s interesting, it seems like those exposures, those reps, really do build up over time when you work through those steps. I suppose I am a people-pleaser myself, and I’ve just sort of gotten clear that I’m disappointing people every day. Like, there are people, maybe this very minute, Dr. Aziz, someone might be unfollowing this podcast or unsubscribing from the Gold Nugget newsletter, which I don’t recommend taking those actions. But, nonetheless, they are taken.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Someone out there. There’s a loose cannon out there.

Pete Mockaitis

By the hundreds, by the thousands, and so this happens. And so, what’s empowering is to just, for me, as I just sit with that, it’s like, “Yeah, I have displeased someone, and that’s okay. I have not sinned, I have not violated my values, I have not been, I don’t know, fill in the blank: selfish, greedy, lazy, any number of things that seems to kind of be at the core of a lot of this, is we have these value judgments associated with what you’re calling rules. It’s, like, “I feel bad, therefore, I must’ve done something bad. So, I’ve done something bad. I’ve broken a rule. What was the rule? Oh, wait, that rule is kind of ridiculous. Huh.”

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yeah, and there’s what I found, and one of the reasons why when I work with people, and the main ways that I work with people, is in a group environment is because we can identify that rule, and think, “That seems kind of intense,” but it has such momentum of history that I find a lot of this is almost like we’ve been running a propaganda campaign inside of ourselves for 20, 30, 40 years.

And when you’ve heard something for 40 years, it doesn’t matter what’s true or not. It’s hard to challenge. I was working with a gentleman in the program, who has had a hard time, even his relationship with his wife, he’s saying, “This is what I’d like to do on a Saturday.” “I don’t know if I want to do that. Here’s what I want,” like basic stuff.

And so, it almost felt like for the first couple of months he’s in the program, he was, “Hey, it’s okay for me to ask for what I want.” And in some part of the lecture, I’m like, “Of course. Of course.” And then he looks, like, around the room, and like, “Is it really okay for us to do that?” And we need to hear that, we need to get reinforced from outside.

And, hopefully, it’s just reinforcing some new beliefs that are just more sane and healthy. And I think that’s really a key thing to come back to, is, “Hey, is the way I’ve been living really serving me? Is it serving others? Is it really? If I’m getting burnt out, and hurting inside, and experiencing all these mind-body issues, and pain, and illnesses, like is this really how it’s supposed to go?” And I would challenge that, I’d say, “We’re not meant to live and help others at the expense of ourselves.” I think there’s really a beautiful, a much more abundant, win-win way of going through life.

Pete Mockaitis

That is beautiful. And I’m wondering if you recommend starting, if it feels scary, starting big or starting small? Like, “Asking my wife what I want to do on a Saturday,” in that example, is it that you recommend that you have, I mean, a small request might be…?

I guess I’m thinking small might be like you can give a lot of advanced notice. Like, let’s say on a Tuesday, you say, “Hey, honey, I think it’d be really fun on Saturday if we got lunch at Jimmy John’s.” Like, “Okay, that’s an inexpensive restaurant. It’s four days notice. It’s lunch, not dinner. It doesn’t seem as big, primetime of a meal.” So, I’m wondering, is your professional advice to start with some of those smaller, non-pleasing moves or requests, or to go for the bigger ones right off the bat?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

I would say both are beneficial and it’s going to be based upon your discomfort tolerance, which, by the way, is akin to a muscle that is worth building, and you will build it by doing this. And so, if one is going to just completely blow you out of the water, because our goal here is sustainable. Think of it like strength training over many months, and so you don’t want to go to the gym and just blow yourself out where you can’t work out for three weeks. So, maybe you do the lighter weight at first, then it’s a little easier, and that’s great.

You start to build momentum, and success builds on success, so you have a couple wins, and you’re like, “Well, that didn’t go so bad, so I think that’s a completely valid approach.” And if you want to go faster, you feel like, “I have been in this cage for so long that I’m just ready to do whatever. I got to get out,” then you might feel excited and exhilarated as you really test the edge quicker. But I don’t think there’s one approach that’s better or worse.

Pete Mockaitis

You say discomfort tolerance is a muscle, when we work that muscle doing exactly this. If people-pleasing is a diagnosis, that is apt for you. Are there any other pro tips you have on building the discomfort tolerance muscle? I’ve been into cold plunges lately, so if you can justify me that I’m not a weirdo, and this is actually super beneficial to all sorts of elements of my life, I’ll receive that, Dr. Aziz. But, is cold plunges one of the activities that increases the discomfort tolerance muscle? Or what are some of the other top prescriptions here?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

As a matter of fact, the cold plunge is.

Pete Mockaitis

Thank you for that.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

It’s actually cold showers for clients that I work with. And I, about six to eight months ago, invested in an actual cold plunge to take my cold to the next level. And there’s a lot of physical health benefits to them but, honestly, the biggest draw for me is that discomfort tolerance. It’s a training, it’s a visceral training to go into the uncomfortable every day, or however often you do it.

And the cool thing about discomfort tolerance is that it actually does generalize. So, if you took a cold shower that morning, and then later in the day, there’s an opportunity, someone at work is sharing an idea, and you have something you want to add to it, and you’re like, “Well, actually, I think this. I don’t know if they would think that that’s disagreeing, or I’m not sure.” And that back-and-forth kind of hesitant energy, when you’re in the cold shower, about to go in the morning, you’re like, “Uh, should I go into it?” you’re like, “Ah, let’s just…all right, here we go.”

And whatever that is, that ability to go into discomfort, and then withstand the discomfort, it translates because the circumstance might be totally different, one seems physical, one seems social, but on a physiological level in your nervous system, discomfort is discomfort. And when you increase your capacity to do it, you can actually transfer it.

And so, yes, physical feats of discomfort, whether it’s a cold plunge, or just going doing, you know, people will take the elevator instead of the stairs when it’s two flights of stairs. There’s just this unconscious addiction to comfort that we’re living in. So, finding ways, I’d say once a day, on purpose, you could go do a wall sit where you sit against a wall with your back against the wall, and your legs, or your thighs are at parallel to the earth. Hold that for 60 seconds and you’ll be quivering.

Is that going to make you ripped? No, but it’s saying, and it’s all about the framing of it. So, right before I go into a cold plunge, I remind myself, “This is going to make me stronger.” So, it’s framing. It’s the same thing with the wall sit. I’m not doing this just to build muscle or something. I’m doing this to say, “Hey, I can do things that are uncomfortable,” and that will exactly translate over.

And then, of course, there’s dozens of opportunities in your interpersonal social life. And how do you find them? You just know. We all have a radar going on all the time, and saying, “Is that going to be comfortable or uncomfortable?” And most of us are using that radar to say, “Well, if it’s uncomfortable, then go the other way.” And what we actually want to do is you don’t have to go crazy with this. It’s all in the dose. You don’t need to go insane on your dose of medicine here, this discomfort medicine. But a daily dose, even if it’s small, will radically accelerate how quickly you can make these changes in your life.

Pete Mockaitis

Cool. All right. Well, could you now share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Well, this one I like, this is Tony Robbins, “The quality of your life is directly proportional to the amount of uncertainty you can comfortably tolerate.”

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite study or experiment or piece of research?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Ah, favorite has got to be The Boulder Study of Back Pain of 2021. There’s a book called The Way Out by Alan Gordon where they talk about it, but the Boulder Back Pain study was done to compare back pain treatment, treatment as usual, medications, physical therapy, and then also something called pain reprocessing therapy, which is treating the back pain with the mind and emotion, which has been fascinating for me with my own history of back pain and chronic pain, as well as nice-people developing pain.

There’s a whole chapter in the book, why it’s not nice about that. And so, randomized, controlled trial, gold standard evidence that we can use these mind-body approaches to not just reduce but completely transform back pain is revolutionary for the chronic pain world, and something I’m really excited about getting out into the world in a big way.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And a favorite book?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

There’s one I’m reading right now that I really enjoy, it’s called Free to Focus by Michael Hyatt, and I’m finding it really refreshing for how to reclaim your focus and your time.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And a favorite habit?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

It’s the best and the worst, it’s the cold plunge.

Pete Mockaitis

And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yes, go to DrAziz.com, that’s D-R-A-Z-I-Z.com, and the goal is for there to be a wealth of resources for free. So, there’s a podcast on that page, under the Resources tab. There’s also a mini-course, a video mini-course called “5 Steps to Unleash Your Inner Confidence” also for free. I have a YouTube channel, you can get a link there as well from the Dr. Aziz’s homepage.

So, lots of resources for free. And then if you want to take things further, we have some training courses, and I also work with people in a 12-month life changing yearlong program. So, however far you want to go, I’d love to support you. And if you just want to start with the free stuff or get a book, that’s a beautiful way to really learn that there’s a pathway. There’s a proven pathway out of this stuff, and I’m here to help as many of us as we can to get across that.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yes. Whatever is going to make you the most awesome at your job is also the thing that’s probably either scary or uncomfortable. It’s, like, really practicing that boldness and facing what we fear will not only produce just beautiful results in your career but will also make you feel good at your work, you’ll feel way more engaged.

Pete Mockaitis

Beautiful. Dr. Aziz, this has been a treat. I wish you much fun and minimal people-pleasing.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Thank you, Pete. What a fun and interesting and dynamic interview. Really appreciate it.

Dec 09
0

1017: How to Reclaim Your Creativity and Unlock Innovation with Duncan Wardle

By | Podcasts | No Comments


Disney legend Duncan Wardle shares keys for tapping into your creative side.

You’ll Learn

  1. What blocks our creativity
  2. How to hone your ideas with a “naive expert”
  3. The trick to surfacing your best ideas

About Duncan 

As Head of Innovation and Creativity at Disney, Duncan and his team helped Imagineering, Lucasfilm, Marvel, Pixar, and Disney Parks to innovate, creating magical new storylines and experiences.

He now brings his extensive Disney expertise to audiences around the world using a unique approach to Design Thinking, helping people capture unlikely connections, leading to fresh thinking and disruptive ideas.

Delivering a series of keynotes, workshops and ideation forums, his unique Innovation toolkit helps companies embed a culture of innovation into everyone’s DNA.

Duncan is a multiple TED speaker and contributor to Fast Company, Forbes & the Harvard Business Review. He teaches innovation Master Classes at Yale, Harvard, and Edinburgh University. 

Resources Mentioned

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Duncan Wardle Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Duncan, welcome.

Duncan Wardle
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
I am so excited to talk creativity and The Imagination Emporium. And, first, I’d love it if you could kick us off, no pressure, but I’d love to hear a super riveting high-stakes story that’s also instructive and behind the scenes related to a Disney classic masterpiece that we’re all familiar with. Just no problem.

Duncan Wardle
Any particular masterpiece you had in mind?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, boy, it’s not hard enough. Let’s make it more specific. I’ll keep it open. I’ll keep it open. I mean, I’m thinking my kids love Moana, but we can go anywhere you think there’s a juicy story.

Duncan Wardle
So, I started, I finished as Head of Innovation and Creativity at Disney. Didn’t start that way. I started as the coffee boy in the London office. I used to go and get my boss six cappuccinos a day from Bar Italia on Frith Street. And about three weeks into the role, I was told I would be the character coordinator, that’s the person who looks after the walkaround characters, at the Royal Premiere, for “Who Framed Roger Rabbit?” in the presence of the Princess of Wales, Diana.

I was like, “Ooh, what do I do?” They said, “Well, you stand at the bottom of the stairs, the Princess will come in along the receiving line, Roger Rabbit will come down the staircase, the Princess will greet Roger, she’ll move into the auditorium.” How could you possibly screw that up? Well, that’s the day when I found out what a contingency plan was, because I didn’t have one.

But a contingency plan would tell you, if we were going to bring a very tall rabbit with very long feet down a giant staircase towards the Princess of Wales, one might want to measure the width of the steps before the rabbit clips on the top step and is now hurtling like a bullet, head over feet at torpedo speed directly down the stairs towards Diana’s head. Whereupon he was taken out by two Royal Protection officers who just flattened him.

There’s a very famous picture on Reuters of Roger going back to the air like this, two secret service heavies diving towards him, and a 21-year-old PR guy from Disney about going, “Oh, shit. I’m fired.” So, I thought, “You know, there’s no point going to work tomorrow.” So, I got a call from somebody called a CMO. I didn’t even know what that was at the time. I thought, “Oh, he’s going to tell me I’m fired. He goes, “That was great publicity.” I said, “Who knew? I could make a career out of this.”

And so, for the next 20 or 30 years, to be precise, I got to have some of the more mad, audacious, outrageous ideas for Disney, Pixar, LucasFilms, etc. and I was like a kid in a candy store. I always liked the ideas that I had no idea how to pull them off. When I sent my son’s Buzz Lightyear into space, I had to convince NASA to take Buzz Lightyear into space. He’s the world’s longest serving astronaut on the International Space Station.

I built a swimming pool, a full-size Olympic swimming pool down Main Street, USA for Michael Phelps to swim down. I really only ever liked the ideas that I had no idea how I was going to pull them off once they were approved.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that sounds like a ton of fun. I’m just taking it all in. Wow! So, basically, you had nothing to do with the tripping, and had you thought of it, you would have prevented it, and you would not have had this beautiful serendipitous pathway of fun, creative goodness, unfold for you.

Duncan Wardle
So, basically for 20 years, I got to do the more mad, audacious, outrageous ideas, and about, oh, God, 2009, 2010, I got a call from the boss who said, “Listen, you’re the guy with all the mad ideas who seems to get them done inside a very large organization, you’re going to be in charge of innovation and creativity,” to which my response was, “Well, what the hell is that?” He said, “Well, I don’t know. We just want to embed a culture of innovation and creativity into everybody’s DNA.” I said, “Okay.”

So, I tried three or four models, I hired outside consultants, we did accelerator programs, we created innovation team. But what we failed in, actually, our overall goal, which was “How might we embed a culture of innovation and creativity into everybody’s DNA?” So, I set out to create a toolkit, one that has three principles: takes the BS out of innovation and makes it more accessible to normal hard-working people; makes creativity tangible for a 50% of us who are uncomfortable with ambiguity and grey; but far more important, make it fun, give people tools they’ll choose to use when the boss isn’t around. That’s when you know you’re changing a culture.

And we ended up having, I think it was like a three-year waitlist for what was a two-day voluntary training course. So, we must be doing something right.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really cool. Well, I’m intrigued then, with all this study and practice and teaching and experiencing in the zones of creativity and imagination and innovation, is there a key surprising discovery you’ve made about us humans when we’re trying to do this stuff?

Duncan Wardle
Yes. Close your eyes. Where are you usually and what are you doing when you get your best ideas?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m often in bed or in the shower.

Duncan Wardle
Okay, there we go, so we’ll go with those. So, you can open your eyes. I’ve done this with up to 50, now 20,000 people in the audience, and used either here, in bed, in the shower, jogging, running, commuting, playing with the children, out walking, and nobody ever says at work. Not one person. Well, that’s a bummer, isn’t it, because we’re paid to have our big ideas at work.

So, close your eyes again. Picture that last verbal argument you were in with somebody. A bit of a shouting match. Your voices are raised. You’re angry. You turn to walk away from that argument. Now you’re five seconds away. You’re 10 seconds, you’re 20 seconds away from the argument. And what just spontaneously pops into your head the second you turned to walk away from that argument? What was it?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, a smarter thing that I should’ve said.

Duncan Wardle
Yeah, the killer one-liner, the one perfect, beautiful comeback you wish you’d used during the argument but you didn’t, did you? No. Why? Because when we’re in an argument, our brain is moving at a thousand miles an hour. defending ourselves, and when we’re in the office, it’s the same for meetings, emails, presentations, and I hear myself say, “I don’t have time to think.” But the split second you gave yourself time to think, came up with a killer one-liner, came up with a big idea.

But we don’t give ourselves time to think. And how do you get there? By being playful. Why is that important? Because when you are in the argument or at work you, and you hear yourself say, “I don’t have time to think,” you’re in the brain state called beta, where you only have access to your conscious brain. Well, that’s only 13% of your brain; 87% of your brain is subconscious. Every meeting you’ve ever been, every creative problem you’ve ever solved, every innovation you’ve ever seen, it’s back here. It’s unrelated stimulus but you don’t have access to it.

How do I get access to it? By being playful. What do I do? Sixty-second exercises deliberately designed to make you laugh. Why? Because the moment I hear laughter, I know that, metaphorically, I placed you back in the shower where you are when you have your best ideas. When you ask, Pete, I often hear people say, you know, you ask, “What’s the barriers to being more innovative and creative where you work?” People say, “We don’t have the resources, you know.” “Oh, okay. All right. Well, who are the most creative people you’ve ever met?” “Children.” “How much money they got?” “None.”

There is a correlation there. The challenge is this. I believe that the most employable skillsets of the next decade are being killed through Western education. Why do I believe this? Because I was doing some work recently with Google on their DeepMind project, and I asked the engineer, that’s their artificial intelligence program, what she believes will be the most employable skillsets in the next decade. And she said the ones that would be the hardest for her to program, and we agreed on what they were. The ones that which we were born with.

We were all born creative. We were all born with amazing imagination. We’re all born with empathy and intuition, but then we go to school, and the first thing our teacher tells us to do is “Don’t forget to color in between the lines. Well, stop asking why because there’s only one right answer.” So, by the time we’re 18, we identify as not creative and we’re not curious anymore. And yet with AI coming into the marketplace, these will be some of the most employable skillsets for the next decade.

So, I am on a mission. I believe everybody is creative. I don’t believe it’s just some people. I define creativity as the ability to have an idea, and I define innovation as the ability to get it done. That’s the hard part. But here’s the thing, we train our lawyers, train the IT team, train marketing, train sales, but when it comes to innovation, we just tell people to get in a room and have a big idea with no training, no equipment. So, I thought, “Right. I’m going to create a toolkit.”

So, let me ask you a question, actually, before I describe the toolkit. When you’re in your office, or anybody else’s office, for that matter, and you see a business book, where, physically, where is that business book? Where is it in the office?

Pete Mockaitis
On a bookshelf.

Duncan Wardle
Yeah, bingo. Do you ever read it? “No, I’m too busy. My boss needs this by three o’clock. I’ve got a weekly report to do, so I don’t read the books.” I thought, “Okay, what nonfiction book have I ever read, where I could only read one page, don’t have to read the whole book, but I get exactly what I want?” A cookbook. You want Shepherd’s pie? Go to page 67. And so, I’ve designed the book exactly the same way.

So, there’s a contents page for the left-hand side of the brain, and there’s a contents page for the right-hand side of the brain, and it says, “Have you ever been to a brainstorm where nothing ever happened? Go to page 67.” “Fed up with your boss shooting your ideas down? Go to page 12.” “Don’t know how to find an insight for innovation? Go to page 47.” So, I’m trying to make it accessible for people, and then I want it to really make it tangible and fun.

Because the more expertise, the more experience we have, the more reasons we know why the new idea won’t work, so we constantly shoot it down. And I call it our river of thinking. And, basically, in the last four years, we don’t get to think the way we thought four years ago. We’ve got climate change, we got artificial intelligence coming into the marketplace, we’ve got Generation Z that doesn’t want to work for us, and we’ve got global pandemics, so we don’t get to think the same way we always have. So, I want to give people a set of tools that stop you thinking the way you always do and give you permission to think differently.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, it’s a lot of goodness to dig into. We’ve got the creative side, getting ideas, and the innovation side, the hard part, making them happen. So, let’s talk about each of these in succession. On the creative side, you said you want to get us into a playful zone, and you’ve got some 60-second exercises that make us laugh. I would love to be able to laugh within 60 seconds regularly, just in general, as a life skill for joy and happiness. So, how do I pull that off?

Duncan Wardle
Well, let me see. Experts, okay. I’m going to give you an occupation. You’ve worked in this occupation for the last 25 years. Therefore, you are the world’s leading guru on this particular topic. I will play the role of a news reporter and I’ll interview you about how you get your job done. So, Pete, for the last 25 years, you are the world’s leading guru as a designer of parachutes for elephants. I will now interview you about your job.

So, Pete, I’m just curious, is there a difference in how you design the parachute for an Indian elephant versus an African elephant, given that their ears are totally different sizes?

Pete Mockaitis
Sure thing. Given the aerodynamic qualities of the ear, we make sure that the shape of the parachute can accommodate them effectively and slow things down just right, compensated for the fact that we’re getting some ear help along the way.

Duncan Wardle
And the airplane, do they go up to 30,000 feet? Or, do they go up to a thousand feet? Do they have to go to a higher altitude because of the weight of the elephants versus a human?

Pete Mockaitis
No, same height works just fine.

Duncan Wardle
Okay. And are the elephants, the Indian elephants more intimidated than the African elephants? Is one more bold and loves throwing themselves out of planes? Or is it sort of a joint fear factor?

Pete Mockaitis
They both hate it.

Duncan Wardle
And how did you get into this line of business in the first place, I’m curious?

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I met this charming podcast guest and he inspired a whole career journey.

Duncan Wardle
All right. Well, thank you very much. So, I walk into a room and ask people, “Hands up if you think you’re creative,” and less than 3% of the audience will put their hand up. And then I’ll give them this exercise, and you just hear a huge laughter, and they realize that they’re far more creative than they thought they were. And I think that’s important.

The other one that I do, because I think it’s really impactful, is this one. So, you and I are going to brainstorm an idea for a birthday party. We’ve got $100,000 in the budget. And so, would you like it to be a Star Wars party or a Harry Potter party? What would you like?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s funny, I can’t help but going meta, so we only have two choices, huh?

Duncan Wardle
Well, we’ll pick a theme. What do you want?

Pete Mockaitis
I was thinking Superheroes, broadly speaking.

Duncan Wardle
Okay, superheroes. We’ll go superheroes. So, I’m going to come at you with some ideas for a superhero party. I want each and every response, every time you respond, I want the first two words out of your mouth, if you would, to be “No, because” and then you’ll tell me why we shouldn’t be doing that idea. So, I was thinking, right, we’ll get all the superheroes together. We’ll get the DC heroes, we’ll get the Marvel heroes, and we’ll even put Disney characters in there with capes and masks.

Pete Mockaitis
No, because we don’t have the intellectual property rights to do DC. This is Marvel country.

Duncan Wardle
Okay. All right. Okay, I’ll tell you what then, we’ll just do a cosplay party using all the…wait, no. Actually, superheroes, we could do a crossover party between Star Wars and Marvel, and all the tall people could come as like Darth Vader, and all the little people can come as Ewoks.

Pete Mockaitis
No, because that’s offensive to people who suffer from disabilities.

Duncan Wardle
No, a fair point. So, what if we do a Guardians of the Galaxy party because that’s got superheroes from all different, a very diverse background, and we just show the movies back-to-back-to-back, and we’ll have a playlist where we can actually all set ourselves back into, oh, LP 1970s. We’ll look good in the ‘70s.

Pete Mockaitis
No, I want people to really connect and engage with each other as opposed to seated and watching films.

Duncan Wardle
Oh, well, okay. So, we’ll stop there. So, let me ask you a question. When you’re throwing out ideas and somebody’s constantly “No, because-ing” you, how does that make you feel?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, it’s really deflating. It’s just like, “Oh, no, no.” I was like, “I regret starting this conversation. Hmm.”

Duncan Wardle
And do you think our idea, where we were going there, do you think we were heading in a much bigger direction or were we getting smaller? Which direction were we heading?

Pete Mockaitis
Smaller.

Duncan Wardle
So, let’s try it again. Pick another theme.

Pete Mockaitis
Another party theme?

Duncan Wardle
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, sure thing. Let’s go with the ‘90s.

Duncan Wardle
The ‘90s, okay. Man, what do I remember about the ‘90s? Not much, but that’s okay. Who cares? So, I’m going to come at you with some ideas for a ‘90s party. Unlike our colleague, the other Pete, who started with the words “No, because,” I’d like you to start with the words “Yes, and” in each response, and we’ll just kind of build it together.

So, I was thinking we could, oh, yeah, a David Hasselhoff lookalike party. It’d be great.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, and we’ll have cars that are like KITT.

Duncan Wardle
Ooh, yes, and we could have Transformers and the cars could actually turn themselves into Transformers, and everyone gets to take one home, and it could be sponsored by Ferrari.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, and we’ll have ChatGPT in the cars so they could actually talk back and forth to us.

Duncan Wardle
Ooh, yes, and we’ll have ChatGPT in all different languages around the world. And then we’ll bring in holograms of ABBA from the ABBA Live Show in London. And then we could actually all be holograms, so we’re not actually in the party at all, but that we are.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, and we’ll have 3D headsets to make it a more immersive experience for the people who are there remotely.

Duncan Wardle
Oh, yes, Apple Vision Pro, so people could actually join us from around the world. So, we’ll stop there. So, a lot more laughter, a lot more energy. This time around, if you were to describe that exercise in one word, what one word would you choose?

Pete Mockaitis
That’s fun.

Duncan Wardle
Fun. By the way, why shouldn’t work be fun? This time around, bigger or smaller?

Pete Mockaitis
Bigger.

Duncan Wardle
Okay. Far more importantly, when we work inside big companies, we’ve got bosses and colleagues and constituents to bring on board with our ideas. When we just finished building that idea together, whose idea was it by the time we finished?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, it’s a team. It’s both of ours.

Duncan Wardle
It’s ours. So, just using “Yes, and” has amazing powers to turn a small idea into a big one really, really quickly, but far more importantly, allows us to transfer the power from my idea, which we know never goes anywhere inside a large organization, to our idea and accelerate its opportunity to get done. But the more experience, the more expertise we have, the more reasons we know why the new idea won’t work.

So, we start, “No, because we tried that last year,” “No, because that won’t hit our KPIs,” “No, because that’s not the way we do it here.” Just remind yourselves and the colleagues who tend to start with the words “No, because,” “Look, we’re not green lighting this project for execution today. We’re merely just greenhousing it together using yes and.” You can change your culture overnight with “Yes, and.”

Pete Mockaitis
Greenhousing, that’s fun. And even just imagining a greenhouse puts you in a good mood, with the water mists and the sunshine and the plants and the flowers.

Duncan Wardle
Actually, whilst I’ve got you, I’m going to grab a pen and a piece of paper. Have you got one? I know I should have probably mentioned that in advance. I want to talk about the power of diversity in innovation, because everybody talks diversity and then nobody does anything about it. So, I want to prove to people how diversity drives innovation.

We’ve been designing a new retail dining and entertainment complex for the Hong Kong Disney Resort, in the room that day were, the Disney Imagineering team, a team you would expect to be there, but on that particular day, I was faced with 12 white male American engineers, all over 50. That’s called groupthink.

So, I invited in a naive expert. Well, what’s a naive expert? A naive expert is there because they don’t work in the industry in which you work. Well, how can they help you solve the challenge? Well, they can’t but that’s not why they’re there. They’re there because they will say or do something to stop you thinking the way you always do and give you permission to think differently.

So, I brought in a young chef from China, a female. Why? She wasn’t male, she was female. She wasn’t American, she was Chinese. She wasn’t over 50, she was under 20. And far more importantly, she wasn’t an architect or an engineer, she was a chef, and I knew she would say or do something to get us out of our river of thinking and thinking differently.

So, I gave them the same challenge that I should give you now, pen and paper. I’m going to name an object. You have seven seconds to draw it, and then I want you to hold it up. Are you ready?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Duncan Wardle
Okay. Please, would you draw a house? Seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. Share your genius, if you would, please. Let’s take a look. Let’s take a look. And, ooh, can’t see, it’s fading in and out there a bit. Okay, so hands up if you drew one door.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, one door, yep.

Duncan Wardle
How many windows?

Pete Mockaitis
I have one window, but I ran out of time. I would have had two.

Duncan Wardle
Did you draw bars over the windows?

Pete Mockaitis
Yes.

Duncan Wardle
Okay. And what shape is the roof?

Pete Mockaitis
A triangle.

Duncan Wardle
Shocker. So, all of the Disney Imagineers drew exactly what you did because they were constrained by their river of thinking. But the young female Chinese chef, she drew, hang on let’s just see if I can’t sketch this in 10 seconds, she drew a dim sum house with some dim sum on the top of it, a chimney. And so, it never occurred to her to draw the house the same way we would because she wasn’t stuck in our river of thinking.

And on the way out the door, a Disney Imagineer slapped a Post-it note over her dim sum house, and said, “Distinctly Disney. Authentically Chinese.” Seven years later, the strategic brand position that guided the entire design of the Shanghai Disney Resort, “Distinctly Disney. Authentically Chinese.” The point is this, diversity is innovation.

If somebody doesn’t look like you, they don’t think like you. And if they don’t think like you, they can help you think differently. And so, the next time you have a leadership meeting, the one person that you could do within that meeting room is not a leader, “Oh, we can’t do that.” Well, why not? Have some young 25-year-old superstar in the meeting. They’re not there to solve the challenge for you. That’s not why they’re there. They are there to challenge the way you think and to help you think differently.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Duncan, I’m loving this so much. And this reminds me when I was consulting at Bain, we had a giant department store client and I was new to the case, I was naïve. And the partner was talking about size packs, which is something I was not familiar with, but, apparently, there are garments that are sent to department stores, at least at that time, that you don’t get. You don’t say to the supplier, “I want three smalls, five mediums, ten larges.” No, you buy different size packs which have a certain preset number in there.

And I said, “Why do we have size packs? Like, aren’t we a big deal retailer who could ask for and receive from our suppliers the exact sizes that we wanted, and they would need to play ball, and would nicely meet the inventory needs and demands of how many different people of different sizes are in different stores?”

And it was funny because the partner looked at me, he’s like, “Are you kidding?” He genuinely was not sure. He wasn’t trying to be offensive or dismissive, but he was not sure if I was joking about the size pack question, because size packs are just part and parcel with what he’s been dealing with and thinking about, an industry norm forever. And so, so for me to say this is just, like, shocking.

And I don’t know, it may or may not be a wise idea with logistical efficiencies to have size packs in department stores. But I think that just by shaking it up, we are at least able to consider some new ideas and the implications of, “What if we didn’t have size packs? Maybe smaller players could work with us and we could have more fresh interesting offers in our stores. Hmm.”

Duncan Wardle
“What if” is a great tool. It was designed by Walt Disney for Fantasia. He was very frustrated that he couldn’t pump mist into the theatre or heat into the theatre during the movie. So, the theatre owners, so step one, you list the rules of your challenge. Do not think about them. If you start thinking about them, you’ll think of all the reasons you can’t break them.

So, Walt simply listed down the rules of going to a movie theatre, “I must sit down. It is dark. I must go at a set time. I can’t take in my food and beverage. I must pay to get in. I can’t control the environment.” Just list the rules. Don’t think about them. Then pick one and ask the most audacious, provocative, outrageous “What if.”

So, Walt chose the environment, he said, “Well, what if I could control the environment?” Well, he couldn’t, he didn’t own the movie theatres. Besides, that wasn’t provocative enough. So, he said, “Well, okay, if I can’t control the environment, what if I may take my movies out of the theatre?” If you know how to do it, you’re iterating. If it scares you, you’re innovating.

So, somebody said, “Well, how are you going to do that, Walt? They’ll be two-dimensional, they’ll fall over. People won’t be able to see them.” “Well, what if I made them three-dimensional?” “Well, how are you going to do that, Walt?” “Well, what if I just put people in costumes like in princesses and cowboys and pirates?” “Yeah, but, Walt, you can’t have Cinderella standing next to Jack Sparrow. People wouldn’t be immersed in her story.”

“Hey, what if I put each of them in a different themed land?” Boom, it’s called Disneyland, and that’s how he came up with the idea.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful.

Duncan Wardle
So, let me ask you a question. Did you used to go to Blockbuster Video?

Pete Mockaitis
I did.

Duncan Wardle
Did you used to pay late fees?

Pete Mockaitis
Not much, because I was broke, and I really tried to be on time.

Duncan Wardle
Well, you were one of these people who took them back on time? Wow, okay. Well, clearly, you didn’t. Okay.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, but, occasionally, I did.

Duncan Wardle
Okay. So, Reed Hastings, founder of Netflix, very fed up of paying late fees, walked into a Blockbuster Video, sat down, observed the process for a day, and wrote down the rules. “I must drive to a physical store. I must go during opening hours. They have a very limited stock. I can only take out three at a time. I must return it. I must rewind it. And if I take it back later, I must pay a late fee.” Listed the rules.

So, he took one in 2005, he took store, he said, “Well, what if there was no physical store?” What a stupid idea in 2005, or was it? YouTube was already seven months old. YouTube was only streaming professional content. So, he said, “Well, hang on a minute. What if I just did a deal with a major movie studio? I’ll stream professional content. Huh. Nobody would have to drive to a physical store. I’ll be open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Everybody gets the one they want. I’ll have unlimited stock. Nobody would have to return it or rewind it. I’ll cut the rental off at 24 hours. Nobody pays a late fee. I’ll call it Netflix. I’ll take my ideas to Blockbuster five times. They’ll turn me down five times. I’ll take them out of business in less than five years.”

Now, a lot of your listeners are going to be sitting there saying, “Oh, but we don’t have the resources.” Uh-uh, that’s not fair. This tool works for everybody. There was a very small company in Great Britain in the late ‘60s. They used to make glasses that we drink out of, and they found too much breakage and not enough production as the glasses were being packaged and shipped.

So, they went down to the shop floor and they watched the production, and they broke down the rules. “Twenty-six employees convey about 12 glasses to a box, six on the top, six on the bottom. Glasses separated by corrugated cardboard. Glasses wrapped individually in newspaper. Employees were reading the newspaper.”

So, somebody took that one and said, “What if we poke their eyes out?” Well, that’s against the law and it’s not very nice. But because they had the courage to ask the most provocative what-if question of all, the lady sitting next to him immediately said, “Well, wait a minute, what if we just hire blind people?” So, they did. Production up 26%, breakage down 42%, and the British government gave him a 50% salary subsidy for hiring people with disabilities.

So, list the rules of your challenge. Don’t think about them, just list them. Pick one and ask the most audacious what-if question. You’ll be amazed how it gets you out of your river of thinking.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. All right, Duncan, so we’ve hit a few guidelines for the creative, getting ideas part of things. Now let’s talk about innovation, implementing them. It’s funny, sometimes I think I have so much curiosity and love playing in the world of ideas and brainstorming and imagining and what-if and how might this work, that it’s actually a little bit tricky for me, personally, at times to hunker down. It’s like, “Okay, let’s do the things to get this going.”

Duncan Wardle
Yeah, very true. Analysis paralysis. Welcome to corporate America. So, let’s say, hang on, I’m just drawing something out here. Strategic brand fit, consumer truth, bucket load of money. Can we get it in the marketplace in the next 18 to 24 months? And is it socially engaging? I just made that up. So, this is called Stargazer. It looks like a starfish, right? And so, as you’re evaluating, let’s say, to your point, we’ve got 47 ideas up on the wall. Well, how do you know which is the right one for the consumer, for the business, etc.?

Well, so I’ve just created this and people can create their own criteria but, let’s say for today, criteria number one, “Is this embedded in our strategic brand fit? Is this aligned with what we stand for as a company? Is this embedded in consumer truth? Is the product or service relevant to the target market we want to go after? Can we actually get this into the marketplace in the next 18 to 24 months? Is it socially engaging? Will it get everybody sharing it on social media? And will it make us a bucket load of money? Obviously, you’ll have a fiscal goal.

And what you do is – I don’t have colors with me today – but you just go around each of the little criteria has three little marks on it. Does it do a poor job of meeting this criteria, a good job of meeting the criteria, or does it knock it out of the park? And all you do is you go around, let’s say it’s now idea number 13, and I’m just going to score it here on the notepad, and then I’m going to join, literally just like we were when we were kids, I’m going to join the dots.

There’s idea number 13, so it’s not really aligned with our brand, not really embedded in consumer truth but, yeah, we can get it in the market in the next 18 to 24 months, yes, it’s very socially engaging and we think it’ll make us a bucket load of money. And so, then you go around with idea number 47, I’m making it up, and you do exactly the same exercise. And very quickly, one idea rises to the top as to meeting your criteria the best, not the idea you like the most. And that’s the problem.

Ideas are very subjective, and this tool allows you, very quickly, to make an objective decision. When we were doing an event for Disneyland Paris, the CMO at the time decided it would be a really good idea to do a cowboy festival for the 25th Anniversary of Disneyland Paris. Well, if you look at consumer truth, our average consumer was a mum with toddlers who was aged 32.

And when he got to that criteria, he realized that mums didn’t know how to spell the word cowboy, let alone knew what they looked like, so he himself had to kill his own idea. So, again, make the tools simple, make them powerful, make them fun, and people will use them.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, there, it seems like a lot of that you can do just right there, moments after you have your ideas, and other pieces, you might really need to do some extra research and to figure out, “Well, will consumers love it and share it? Well, I don’t know. I guess we’ve got to go talk to them.”

Duncan Wardle
Well, bingo, see, focus groups. We’ve stopped doing focus groups. It’s in a meeting room with no windows and no doors, and the consumer knows you’re on the other side of the window, and so it’s not a very relaxed environment for getting true insights for innovation. And our market segmentation teams tell us, “Well, we need to get in 14 different individuals.” No! Individuals don’t tell the truth.

If you ask a bloke, “Hey, what do you do when you go to Disney?” “Oh, I’m a manly man. I ride the thrill rides.” But if he’s sitting next to his husband or his wife and they go, “No, no, dear, actually, you did Small World 17 times about last year. You really loved it,” you get insights out of couples that you don’t get out of individuals. And the real insight comes from looking where your competition isn’t looking. It’s in their living rooms.

When was the last time anybody listening to this podcast actually spent a day in the living room of one of your consumers? So, we were tasked by Disneyland Paris to get more people to come more often, spend more money. The classic. Data told us who could afford the brand, who had an affinity to the brand, who’d been shopping online, who’s a 10 out of 10 every year around coming this year. Well, they hadn’t come, so my intuition told me these people were liars or procrastinators. Let’s go find out.

So, we went to go. And our going, in hypotheses, was the classic “If we build it, they will come.” Why? Well, because that’s the way we’ve always done it. We just build a new attraction, people will come. Our data tells us that. So, we went off to live with a consumer for a day, each of us. Now, I’m curious, do you have children, by any chance?

Pete Mockaitis
I do, yes. Three.

Duncan Wardle
Okay. Could you close your eyes for me, if you would? And I want you to picture a favorite photograph of your children, the one that you can already see in your mind’s eye, because you can see it. It’s a physical one. It’s somewhere in your house or your apartment. Tell me which room is that one in that you can see right now?

Pete Mockaitis
Where is the photo? It’s taken in the backyard.

Duncan Wardle
So, the picture was taken in your backyard. And can you describe the photograph to us?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure, yeah. We’re wearing white shirts, and we’re in the backyard and looking happy.

Duncan Wardle
And who’s the we part?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, the whole family.

Duncan Wardle
Oh, and can we name them or is that…?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure. Myself, Katie, Johnny, Mary, Joey.

Duncan Wardle
Okay. And which ones are the children?

Pete Mockaitis
Johnny, Mary, and Joey.

Duncan Wardle
And how old were they the day that photograph was taken?

Pete Mockaitis
About five, four, and a half, years old.

Duncan Wardle
Okay. And how old are they today?

Pete Mockaitis
They are now approaching seven, six and two.

Duncan Wardle
So, that photograph is, give or take, three years old. Give or take.

Pete Mockaitis
In the ballpark, yeah.

Duncan Wardle
Okay. All right. So, you can open your eyes. And here’s what we found in each of the houses we went into, I saw this photograph above the mantelpiece, and I asked the mum, I said, “Oh, how old are your children, love? Four or five?” She goes, “No, love, 14 or 15.” I said, “Oh, okay. Well, write it down. It’s one individual observation. It doesn’t mean anything.”

When we got back together, we all had the same insight. When we asked the mum how old the children were in reality versus the photograph in her living room, they were anywhere from three years older to 25 years older. Well, does that mean we don’t print photographs of our children anymore? Yeah, of course, we do. Graduations, promotions, etc. And so, why did you pick one that was three years old?

Actually, let me just try another one because your children are quite young. So, close your eyes again. Picture your parents’ house and that really dorky photograph of you from 15 or 20, 25 years ago, where you looked like a complete dickhead. Tell me which room is that photograph in?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s in a downstairs bedroom.

Duncan Wardle
Bingo. So, it’s still there, isn’t it?

Pete Mockaitis
Mm-hmm.

Duncan Wardle
You wish they burned it 25 years ago, but it’s still there. Right, so you can open your eyes. So, I was like, “Why is the photograph still…why do all the mums have photographs of their children from 20 to 25 years ago? Why don’t they have more recent ones? Why did she pick that one?” And so, we dug a bit deeper, asking why, why, why, why, why, because the insight for innovation comes on the fourth or fifth why, not the first way. And, by the way, our data only goes to the first why today.

And each of the mums told me about three moments in time, I label them bittersweet transitions, that take place between a parent and a child through which you must cross. And, Pete, I’m sorry, I’m going to have to break your heart now because you haven’t gone through any of these but you will. I remember where I was when my son was 10 years of age, he came around the corner, Christmas Eve, and his eyes were half full of tears, he says, “Papa,” I said, “Why?” He goes, “Are you Santa Claus?” Boom. Imagination, gone. Spider-man, history.

But what hurt was so much was behind what he had said, was, “I’m not your little boy anymore, Daddy. I’m grown up.” Now, do you have a daughter, Pete?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Duncan Wardle
Okay. How old is she?

Pete Mockaitis
Six.

Duncan Wardle
Six. So, you probably got about another six or seven years left, and one day you’re going to be walking down a high street, and I was outside Panera, Adriana was on my left-hand side, I was in Kissimmee, Florida. It was a Tuesday morning. It was my left hand she dropped in public for the first time because she didn’t want to hold Daddy’s hand in public. Every time you put your hand back now, you know she’s going to grab it, but, well, in one day, she won’t, and it’ll hurt.

And then, the last one was the day where we sent her off to college for the first time, and we put her in her dorm, made the beds, made friends with the roommates. Then it was time to turn around and say goodbye for the very first time. And we hugged and laughed and cheered and told her how much we loved her, and then we walked out to the car park and cried our eyes out like everybody else. And our mums described each of the same three moments in time.

So, what we realized, despite what our data hoped has told us, which was, “If we build it, they will come,” there isn’t a mum alive today who wakes up in the morning, wondering about whether or not Disney is going to build a new attraction this year. But there are, every mum, wakes up every morning, as your wife does today, worried about how quickly her children are growing up and how she wants to make special memories for them “While they still believe, while they still hold my hand, while they’re still here.”

That’s a segmented communication campaign, another capital investment strategy, one that drove the doors down to Disneyland Paris and turned a very product-centric culture into a genuinely consumer-centric culture. It’s now mandatory for every Disney executive to spend at least one day a year cleaning the streets of Disneyland, Walt Disney World, or Disneyland Paris, or serving popcorn, and one day every two years in one of the living rooms of one of our consumers. It’s about looking for insights for innovation where your competition isn’t looking.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Lovely. And so, then the focus groups aren’t doing the trick. You really got to get kind of intimate and up close and personal in the natural environment, and seeing what’s going on.

Duncan Wardle
Look, I don’t discard focus groups, but I just think there are more insights to be found in people’s living rooms than there are in a room with no windows and no doors, because it’s not just what they tell you. It’s what you see and notice in those living rooms that will confirm or deny your data, or you may just find an insight for innovation your competition couldn’t find because they weren’t looking there.

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely. Well, Duncan, tell me anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things.

Duncan Wardle
I genuinely believe everybody is creative. I just think education is killing you, and I’m on a mission to prove it. It’s as simple as that, and make it fun, why not?

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Duncan Wardle
“If you’re going through hell, keep going,” Winston Churchill.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And favorite book?

Duncan Wardle
Virgin by Design by Richard Branson, or Creativity, Inc. by Ed Catmull, or The Imagination Emporium, that’s coming out on December 10.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Duncan Wardle
“If you do what you love, you’ll be good at it.” It’s amazing how many people fail to recognize it. When I was at school, I did eight subjects. I failed at seven. I got an A in one. Why? Because I loved it. If you apply that principle to life, if you do what you love, you’ll be successful. It doesn’t matter what it is. I don’t care what your job is. And so many people, I see them so miserable in their jobs and they’re not successful at them. But, particularly young people, my advice is do what you love. You’ll be really good at it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Duncan Wardle
DuncanWardle.com would be the easiest place, I think.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Duncan Wardle
Think about some of the tools we talked about today, what-if. List the rules. Pick one and ask the most audacious what-if? Or, naive expert, having a naive expert in the room. Think about some of the things we’ve talked about or how why playfulness is so important. And write down three “I wills.” Three things you say you’re going to do in the next 30 days as a result of what you may have heard today, and just put it away in a drawer and take it out 30 days from now. And, hopefully, you’ll have done all three. And if you haven’t, hopefully, it’ll remind you of some of the things you’ve heard and you can go use them now.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Duncan, thank you. This is fun. I wish you many delightful imaginations.

Duncan Wardle
Cool. Thank you very much, indeed. Lovely to meet you.

Dec 05
0

1016: Untangling Identity from Your Work to Rediscover Yourself with Dr. Janna Koretz

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Dr. Janna Koretz reveals the pitfalls of letting your job become your identity and what to do about it.

You’ll Learn

  1. Why career enmeshment harms mental health
  2. The power of protected thinking time
  3. The root cause of workaholism–and how to cure it

About Janna 

Dr. Janna Koretz is the founder of Azimuth, a therapy practice specializing in the mental health challenges of individuals in high-pressure careers. She has spent over a decade helping her clients face and overcome their mental health issues by developing a unique understanding of industry-specific nuances in fields like law, consulting, finance, and technology. 

Dr. Koretz has been featured in many publications, including Harvard Business Review and the Wall Street Journal, focusing on the importance of recognizing career/identity enmeshment. She also writes and speaks on the challenges of discovering and living your personal values. 

In addition to therapy, Azimuth provides a set of free online tools that have helped tens of thousands of people, including the Burnout Calculator, Career Enmeshment Test, and Values Navigator. The practice is also developing a values-based journaling iOS app, set to launch later this year, based on the popularity of its Values Navigator tool.

Resources Mentioned

Thank You, Sponsors!

Dr. Janna Koretz Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Dr. Koretz, welcome.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Thank you. So happy to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to be discussing these very important matters. And I’d love it if you could kick us off with a particularly surprising or novel discovery you’ve made about us folks and high-pressure careers and mental health things. What’s something you know that many of us don’t?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Wow, there’s so many to choose from. Well, I think a lot of people on a smaller level don’t realize how capable they are, and how resilient they are, and how much they’re doing despite all of the struggles that they have. I think people really feel the loss. They feel the pain of their emotional burdens. They feel the stress of work. They feel the burnout, but they don’t see it in the background, like, the rest of it, and all the things that they’re doing despite that. They’re only feeling sort of the loss. I think that’s also really important to keep in mind for everybody, is there’s so much and so many strengths and so much to be to be offered.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, tell us, how capable are we?

Dr. Janna Koretz
You guys are so capable. I mean, it’s unbelievable, really, and I mean, I think a lot of people who are in high-pressure careers are high achievers and they sort of assume that everyone can do what they’re doing and everyone is doing it better, and they need to strive to be better and the best, and give more but they don’t see how much they’ve already done.

Most people can’t do, with the clients that we see, most people can’t do a lot of that. It takes a lot, a lot of mental effort, a lot of smarts, a lot of emotional energy. So, you’re very capable, from what we see. Most capable.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, it’s funny, what you’re saying sounds very true, and it also sounds very easy to dismiss and to shoo away, and instead of allowing to truly sink in and allow the good mental health vibes that it can deliver to us be delivered. Is that fair to say? How do people respond when you share this truth with them?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Oh, absolutely, that’s true. It’s so dismissed. It can be so easily dismissed, partly because people, A, are not used to receiving compliments, because the way in which our culture works now is we’re always looking for what’s wrong, and no one’s saying, “Great job,” or things like that, especially in the workplace, especially in a fast-paced workplace, so I think that’s part of it.

And I think that people often feel awkward about that because it’s so dissonant to what they believe that they kind of brush it off because it just doesn’t really serve them in the moment, when, really, it serves them in the long term.

Pete Mockaitis
So, if we do want to sort of brush that aside, like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, sure. You know, yeah, I guess I got some good grades, and I got some lucky breaks, and, yeah, I guess it worked out, so, okay. I’m here. And, yeah, okay, fair enough. I guess maybe, statistically, you know, the majority of people couldn’t. exactly pull off what I’ve pulled off, so fair enough. But, I mean, you know what, there’s millions of people just like me, so like, is it really that special?”

Dr. Janna Koretz
Are you really that special? Interesting question. Well, think about it this way, so it’s not really about being special. It’s about having a great capability and applying that in a way that’s useful to you. And so, a lot of people have kind of gone through life and checked all the boxes, that whatever they’re supposed to do, the expectations they were supposed to meet, they’re kind of on this treadmill and they’re not necessarily thinking about it, but that’s a lot of effort and a lot of work.

And so, if you find yourself in a place where you’re burnt out, yes, you need to get away from the burnout to have access to those resources, but these people are very capable. You’re a very capable person. If you use that energy and direct it towards what’s helpful to you and figure out what that is, then that’s the dream, right?

And I had a client once who was like, “You know, my boyfriend says it’s kind of, like, people who do, like, these complicated scams, right? It’s like these really complicated scams, and if only they could apply that to curing cancer, wouldn’t that be cool?” You know, like that’s so much effort and it’s smart in some ways, right?” They’re getting around all these things, they’re using AI, I mean, just not for good, but if you could harness that and apply it somewhere else, that would be pretty great.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. So, when you say the power, you mean our own capability to dream, to imagine, to figure out, to come to believe things, is that what you mean by the capabilities and the scams?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I mean, partly. I mean, certainly the internal piece, but also just the work, the actual energy, and the mental effort, and the multitasking that people do on a daily basis, I mean, just the inside and the output too, is a lot, and it could be directed in a lot of different ways.

Pete Mockaitis
I suppose what I’m really driving at is, if it is a master key to understand and believe that we have vast capabilities, and it feels like it is, is that your assertion as well?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I think it’s an important thing to acknowledge for a lot of reasons, yes.

Pete Mockaitis
So, if that’s one key factor, but we’re quick to brush it off and to not allow it to sink in and enrich us, do you have any pro tips on how we can get there? Because what I’m thinking about is, if I truly believe, in deep down in my heart of hearts, that I have vast stores of capability, not that I’m sort of omniscient or the most brilliant person who ever lived, but vast stores of capability, then it would seem like it would naturally follow that a sense of peace could emerge, and think, “Hey, you know what, wow, yeah, there’s a lot of challenges out there, but they are ultimately figure-out-able because I’m pretty good at figuring things out and handling the things that life throws my way.”

So, that seems to me very, very powerful to have that as an interior, internal mental health asset. But if we shoo it away, we don’t have it, and that’s sad. How can we get it?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Well, the first question I always ask is, “Why? Why can’t you access that? Why don’t you believe that? What is hard about that?” And that’s the whole, you know, we do spend a lot of time in therapy doing that, so that’s not a simple question.

But also, I mean, a lot of people’s inability to  appreciate, and believe in themselves and their capabilities is because they don’t have a grounded sense of who they are, and they don’t have a grounded sense of their identity anymore, or their identity is like wrapped up in one thing, work, motherhood, something like that, and people lose themselves so that they don’t feel steady in saying, “Yeah, I do have these abilities and capabilities because I just don’t feel like I do those things anymore. Or I just do them ad nauseam so it just feels like everybody has them.” So, I think a lot of it has to do with really finding your identity again and really knowing who you are.

Pete Mockaitis
Working with a lot of folks in high-pressure careers, what are some of the themes or patterns you see over and over and over again with regard to their mental health that we should be clued into and aware of?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Well, I think career enmeshment for our people is huge, which is just their whole identity is wrapped up in their career. And so, inevitably, when something happens at work, like they don’t miss a promotion, their company gets acquired, they get laid off and things like that, they don’t have any part of themselves to fall back on, and you’re made very uncomfortable by that because it brings up a lot of existential questions, like, “Who am I? What was the point of that? What am I even doing here?” And people can get really upset about that and kind of fall into more of an anxiety, have a lot of anxiety, depression, start using substances and things like that. That’s a really big one.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, our identity is wrapped up in our career. I’m reminded of a couple of things here. One is, personally, I remember once, I, in fact, got a mediocre review, mediocre-to-bad, at work, and I was so surprised and stunned and puzzled. And I remember, I actually said out loud “This doesn’t feel like who I am.” And I later reflected, I was like, “What an interesting reaction because, of course, it’s not who I am! It was one review.”

Dr. Janna Koretz
That’s what I mean, yes.

Pete Mockaitis
One review. But there it is, and then I’m also thinking about, I think it was Ronda Rousey, the fighter, was interviewed, and she was very emotional and powerful. She was crying because she lost a huge match or championship, and she said something like, “If I’m not a champion then who am I?” And I was like, “Oh, man, Ronda, I think I’m picking up what you’re putting down there from that experience I had previously.” So, that’s kind of what it sounds like what career enmeshment might look, sound, feel like, these kinds of reactions to normal career hiccups and setbacks that happen to us all.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Yeah, I mean, she said it perfectly. And I think it can apply to other things, too. Like, one metaphor we use a lot, is, for parents, in general, but there’s a lot of talk about motherhood and loss of identity because you’re all consumed into this one thing. And that can be applied, being enmeshed in anything or with anyone is totally possible.

So, it happens a lot in the workplace, and we see it a lot too with our clients who used to be athletes and they spent a really long time, like all of their time really perfecting their craft, getting really good, maybe they’ve made it, you know, they’re doing Olympic trials, they’re doing all sorts of stuff, and then they get injured. And then what, right? Sounds of like Ronda was saying, “Then what? What do I have? Who am I?”

And what we see a lot, too, is because people have spent coming up so much time with that from an early age, sports is a great example, but it could be anything. You spend a lot of time through your childhood playing, I always use soccer as an example, but it could be anything, that you’re missing out on critical developmental periods where you’re supposed to be doing other things, like learning social skills with friends, like the nuances of social skills, or taking small risks to learn about your independence and confidence, learning how to make choices, things like that.

And so, because you’re siloed into this one thing in a very sort of constructed environment with rules, and so within that context, people can get creative and learn those things but the world is a much bigger place. So, then you find yourself in a place where you don’t have that anymore, and you don’t feel prepared or equipped to navigate what’s in front of you because you haven’t had the practice that a lot of people have had to figure that out. And that sort of adds on to the burden of, like, “Who am I? What am I doing?” because it makes people flounder a little bit.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, if some folks are nodding their heads, like, “Oh, my gosh, yes, that’s me,” what do we do about it?

Dr. Janna Koretz
What a big question. I love coming on podcasts because people ask these big questions and they’re so complicated, but we start out a lot of times working with doing values-based work, like what is actually important to you, because, oftentimes, we don’t live in a culture that promotes that. I mean, certainly, when I grew up nobody asked me what was important to me. I was just expected by my family and the culture that I was in to do certain things and be certain ways and achieve certain stuff. And I did it because I didn’t think much about it.

And then as I got older and life happens to you and stuff, whatever, you just get wiser with age, I started to realize that what I was doing wasn’t actually what would make me happy. And what does make me happy? And it took me a long time to figure that out, and that’s what we do a lot with our clients, “What is it that makes you happy? How far are you from that? And how do you start to incrementally get to that place or add that into your life?”

Because, I mean, most people, right, can’t just quit their job, or they can’t just move to wherever. I think there’s this idea of, you know, one of the exercises we do is, without any constraints, what would your life look like? And people have, like, things that are very far often from what they are, where they are, and they think they just have to go to that place, but, really, that’s not reality. Reality is still important, too.

But we can slowly start to figure out how to turn in that direction, how to enter into that lane, and if we can get there, great, but what if we could get 70% there? That’s still much better than 0%. So, it’s kind of, like, working in that gray area. But I think values-based work is the crux of so many things.

Pete Mockaitis
That makes sense. When you say values work, I’m thinking we had Dr. Steven Hayes on the show.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Yes. Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
And, in his book, the phrase “values work” comes up many a time. So, when you say values-based work or values work, what does that mean and how does one do it?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Well, I have to give a plug for him because he is the nicest person of all time.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, my gosh, yes.

Dr. Janna Koretz
And his work is incredible, and what he spent his life doing is incredible for all of the ACT workbooks and the books that come with that. I mean, it’s really changed the face of therapy, and he is just a delightful person. So, we talk about him a lot and I do send people to some of his literature and his workbooks because they’re so accessible and they’re so true, of sitting down and doing those exercises. I mean, that would be a more formal way of how we would start that.

You can just put some of the sort of self-reflecting questions we can talk about, like the ones I just talked about, “What would your life look like without this? Who do I admire? Why do I admire them? What about that makes me want to be that way?” There are a lot of like sorts of questions you can ask yourself that start to help people think about things in that way, or you can do more formalized values-based work through ACT, which I recommend to people all the time. I love it. I think it’s great.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, those are great questions. And can you lay a few more of those on us?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Okay, let’s see. What do you admire? What would you do if someone gave you $40 million? How would you spend it?

Pete Mockaitis
I love the specific figure there.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Well, it has to be so big that, whatever.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s not billions. It’s not one million. It’s ample. It’s not yacht money, but, well, it could be, I guess. But it’s like retirement plus, plus, money.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Right. Right. Because, like, billions, it’s like then you’re going to space and that’s not the sphere that we’re talking about. We’re going to bring it down a little bit, but there can’t be any restraint. So, that’s one we do a lot. I also like to talk about, like, “Who are your favorite people to spend time with?” And another one we talk a lot about is “If you could spend more time with your family, why or why would you not do that?” And so, those are some other questions to kind of start thinking about “What is important? And what do I value? And how do I want to go about that, like incorporating that into my life?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And we’ve had some guests who talk a little bit about values as sort of a thing almost to be discovered and codified, like joy and discovery. And so, that’s one way we could think about values. Or do you have a recommendation on a codification or documentation or ratification or a writing it down official thing associated with the outcome of this values exploration?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I love that you asked that because it’s so relevant to a project that I’ve been working on. So, on our website, we sort of changed Shalom Schwartz’s values navigator a little bit to fit our clientele a little bit more, but his work is really great, and that kind of goes through, it’s just a little quiz. It’s actually one of the most popular pages on our website. People, thousands of people do it a day, so I think, I think there is something in there that people really feel connected to, and that kind of puts you into some categories.

And what we are doing actually is we are coming, it’s all beta, public beta should be out in a couple of weeks, but private beta is being sorted now. It’s a values-based journaling app called Clearly, and that is a way in which we have people, like, journal and see how in line they are with their values. And we also are incorporating prompts from various people, like myself or other experts in various industries, to kind of help people prompt them to write more about how that works and what it’s going to look like, and, “Are they living in alignment? Why are we not?” So, it’s going to be pretty neat.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. All right. So, there are some assessments to be taken, and that’s handy. Thank you. And some journaling, and all of these is sort of, let’s see, how do I say this? Is there an end point, or is it continuous? And how do we know we’re starting to reap the benefits or rewards of the values work?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I think you know when you know because you feel grounded and you feel happy. And I think that’s another thing to think about, too, and part of this conversation is “What is happiness? What does that look like? What is the expectation of happiness look like?” Because it’s not eradicating negativity or negative feelings or anything like that, or negative events. I mean, that’s impossible.

But it’s how to manage that in a way that brings the most joy to your life and living well with all these other things that are happening to you, or with you, or things like that. So, that’s what I would say about that, I guess. Does that answer the question?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s a great perspective. Happiness is not eradicating all unpleasant experience. And, boy, if you make that your goal, it’s going to be a bummer.

Dr. Janna Koretz
It’s way more attainable. It’s way more attainable to know that you can’t figure out how to live, like, most of the time, pretty well with all this heavy stuff around you because that’s just what being an adult is. I’ve come to learn myself, you know, that’s just what it is.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, maybe, could you share with us, perhaps, a story or two of transformation, so we can get a picture of, “Okay, I’m experiencing a career enmeshment, I have not yet done the values work, and then I do the values work, and this is what it looked like, and this is what I discovered and how I live differently”? And then what’s the sort of the happy, the before-after profiles?

Dr. Janna Koretz
So, I mean, I think running a business and being a psychologist lays the groundwork for being enmeshed in your career and kind of being on a treadmill that you know why you’re there, but it’s so easy to get caught in the weeds, like anything else that you’re intensely into. And doing what is needed to complete tasks and to achieve whatever the goal is, you have to check off some boxes, you have to jump through hoops, you have to do all these things, right, and you do become secondary.

What you want becomes secondary because you’re working on these projects that are bigger than you are. Or for a business, right, it’s like now other people rely on you to pay for stuff and support their family, right? It’s, like, that’s a really big responsibility. And, over time, even though I knew that’s what I loved, I love all of that, I love to help people, I love to run the business, I love all of that, I felt so negative to me.

I think probably, like, eight years in, I was just feeling maybe a little burnt out, but just like the joy of it had sort of passed by, and I just really wasn’t sure. It was a little confusing, to be honest. And it’s funny because we do all this work with other people, but all therapists have their own therapist because you cannot do the work by yourself. It’s impossible.

And so, through my own therapy, kind of figuring out that the things that it wasn’t that I didn’t like what I was doing anymore, it’s just that I didn’t have the other things that I was missing from previous parts of my life. So, it’s not that I didn’t want to be a psychologist anymore, I didn’t like running the business because I did. It’s just I couldn’t only do that and be a happy person. That’s just for me, that was not something that went together.

So, then, figuring out what it is that you can realistically add back in is tricky because, at the, time I had a full caseload of clients and I was running a business. Like, when exactly was I supposed to strap on my shoes and go for a run, things like that? But time can be made, and this is a strategy I tell people to do all the time, is I kind of went back to people that I had known for a long time ago and just reconnected with them.

I didn’t necessarily tell them about what was going on with me or anything, but I remember, at the time, telling my husband, “I used to be funny. I used to be a really funny person. Who remembers me when I was funny?” And kind of going back in time, and those people you’ve known from before remember those parts of you vividly, and they kind of bring that out for you, and so then you can start to remember, “Oh yeah, this does feel like me. This is kind of where I’m at.”

And it took a long time in doing that and feeling uncomfortable because I was leaving unanswered emails on my computer at 6:45 at night so I could go to the gym or something occasionally or something like that. I feel like I built out, by doing more, like, a more diverse activities and having more things in my life, I actually enjoyed all of my life more, and I really got back into the flow of the business and feeling really good about it, and things like that.

So, that’s not like a dramatic transformation in that I didn’t go from being like a sailor to running McKinsey or something like that. But I think this is the kind of transformation our clients experiences. They’re not necessarily going to quit their job and go to the Bahamas and start an ice cream shop. That’s not really even the point.

But it’s to realize what you’re missing and become whole again as a person and with your identity, and that’s what brings people joy, is like feeling good about incorporating those different pieces in.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so then, could you share a little bit of some of the questions or exercises or things you did that unearthed some of these insights, like, “Hey, I used to be funny. What happened to that?” or, “Oh, shucks, I’m not exercising nearly enough as to feel great”?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I think part of what I learned, too, about myself, and I think this is true for our clients also, is there’s not really a time to sit and think, period. Like, just end stop, right? It’s like, we’re kind of always driving, we’re doing laundry, we’re just doing too many things at once. And I always found that when I just did “nothing,” and was thinking, that’s actually when my best ideas would come about work or other things in my life.

But it just feels really silly to do it because you’re basically just staring into space. It doesn’t feel like it’s something that you’re allowed to do. So, yeah, I mean, honestly, right? So, I was prescribed by my own therapist to sit around and just stare into space and think about stuff, and that’s what I did. And it was so uncomfortable in the moment. Like, I hated it so much because, first, all I could do, it’s like when people start to learn to meditate, right? So, all they can think about is their laundry list of things that they’re not doing.

But over time, I got pretty good at thinking, just thinking, and using that time to figure out those bigger questions and asking myself, “Oh, I thought about that. I wonder why that happened.” I kind of had my own stream of consciousness that kind of led me there. So, I think protected thinking time is super important. It’s not like a shiny piece of advice but it’s a good one.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think it’s actually fairly shiny, if I may be so bold. I’ve heard a thousand-ish guests share many nuggets. And what I love about that is it’s the distinction you drew between the thinking we’re doing, it’s even better than thinking while driving and thinking while doing the laundry. It’s completely uninterrupted.

And that’s rather, well, it sounds delightful to me, because a lot of times I think, I read these studies on, “Oh, meditation is so beneficial. I should do the meditation.” It’s like, “Okay, I guess I’ll do that because I’m supposed to because of all the rewards and the optimal benefits versus costs dah, dah, dah, dah.” And sometimes it just really hits the spot and it’s great.

But other times, it’s like, “Well, no. What I really want to do is think about anything and everything and wherever,” and, in a way, it’s like there’s a little bit of a stressor in that there’s always something happening, even if it’s low level, like taking a shower or driving. There’s always sort of something occurring.

And so, having protected thinking time is a fundamentally different practice than a mindfulness meditation, return to the breath, but it is restored. I guess there’s like a Venn diagram overlap. It has some restorative goodness the way that does, and yet it’s a distinct activity.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Yes, I would agree with that. And even now I try to do that. I go into Boston, into the office, at least once a week, which is a little bit far from where I live. And I do take the train now because the walk from the train station to my office is about a half hour, and I feel bad. My dog is the therapy dog for our office and I often bring her to the office, but there are days where I don’t, and my husband’s always like, “What? Just bring the dog. Like, she’s just there. She’s a great companion.”

I’m like, “I can’t have to think about anything else during that time, or anybody else. Like, she’s going to stop, and people are going to pet her, she’s going to go to the bathroom, all this. I don’t want to listen to a podcast. I just want to be sort of, like, by myself and not have to answer to anybody, sort of.” And I love the dog and I bring her all the time but there are just some days where I feel like I know that I need that protected time, and so I don’t bring her, which makes her a little sad, which then makes me a little sad, so then we don’t do it that often but that’s how I kind of do that because anything feels like a huge interruption to me during that time now.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, for you, personally, how long are these sessions here?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Well, that walk is a half hour, there and back, so that’s an hour in one day, but then I won’t do it for a couple of weeks. So, Thursday or Friday is a crazy day, and then I can find some time on Saturday. So, I kind of fit it in where I can, and there are just some days where I know that it’s going to be stressful to try to find that time so I don’t do it on those days necessarily. But probably every other day, every three days, for at least like cumulatively, maybe an hour.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And I’m also thinking about, is it Bill Gates, famously, just had his think weeks, where, I don’t know if it’s annually or so, he just disappears with a bunch of books and Diet Cokes into a cabin somewhere.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Yeah, he’s got like a house on an island, doesn’t he?

Pete Mockaitis
And then he’s just thinking. And so, that seemed to work out pretty well for him, and it’s working out pretty well for you. So, tell us, what sorts of, it sounds like you don’t even have an agenda by design?

Dr. Janna Koretz
No, no agenda. Can’t have an agenda.

Pete Mockaitis
No questions to be thought of. Just rolling.

Dr. Janna Koretz
I mean, every so often, like, I will think about one thing and use that time to do that, but mostly it’s just wherever the wind blows, that’s where we go. And it’s always very helpful, like I always get something out of it at the end.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have like a notebook with you?

Dr. Janna Koretz
No.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Sometimes I’ll write down the idea. Well, that’s the thing, too. I mean, not everyone operates the same. Some people might have like a recorder or like record stuff on their phone or they might take notes after or have a journal while they’re doing it. Occasionally, I’ll write something down if it’s really important, and, I don’t know, I feel like I have to write it down, but most of the time I remember those things because they kind of come to me in this aha moment, and I just don’t forget them.

Pete Mockaitis
And what I also love about that is, sometimes, I think and then I’m so excited by the thing I thought about I want to go immediately explore it, it’s like, “Ooh, let’s go see if that already exists, if that’s available, and if I could go buy it or whatever.” It’s like, “Oh, well, maybe I’ll just write that down and continue the thinking.”

Dr. Janna Koretz
Or, if you’re excited by it, then I usually write it down because, inevitably, my time is up or I’ve gotten to the office and I have other things to do. But, yeah, I mean, it’s good to come back to that stuff too.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so this is fun. Thank you for indulging me with that deep dive. Let’s hear a little bit about stress in the midst of high-pressure careers. What are your top pro tips, do’s and don’ts to deal with that?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Well, my advice is never, I guess shiny is a good word, but I think people always want like this really great advice they never heard of before. And I have a little bit of that because I think we all know what we’re supposed to be doing. And this is kind of what happens to a lot of our clients when they come to our office. A lot of them have been to therapy before, and they go there and the therapist says, “Well, you need to work less. You need to eat more vegetables. You got to sleep more,” all the things.

They already know that, but they can’t do it because of all the reasons. And so, it feels a little invalidating, “If that’s the way you’re supposed to manage stress then, and I can’t do that logistically then, therefore I cannot manage stress, then my situation is hopeless.” And not to say that other therapists are bad or anything. These are all things that we’re telling people are important, but if you’re in a high-pressure career, there’s a lot of nuances that just don’t allow for the same kinds of flexibility that some other people might have.

There are deadlines, there are clients, there are acquisitions, there’s all these things. People are raising money, they have investors that they’re answering to and all of that. So, do I think sleeping more is important? Yes. Do I wish I could sleep more? Yes. Do I think everyone should sleep more? Absolutely. But I know that getting an extra hour of sleep for people is like a really big ask.

So, I think if you can think about those, like, common things that we all know about, you know, sleep, eating, stuff like that, exercise, I think being creative is actually the way to go about it, and think about creative ways to implement those things, and not sort of the prescribed way in which everybody seems to be doing it. The example I always give is like a lot of our clients when they start exercising again, they sign up for like a triathlon or a marathon or something like that because that feels like the right thing to do for them.

But that’s not a sustainable choice most of the time. Occasionally, it is, but most of the time it’s not. And if you can get creative and be okay with something that doesn’t fit into sort of the box or what you expected exercise should be looking like, then that’s actually where the success comes from. And there are these small sorts of incremental changes of adding those things in, are all fine and all really important.

And they help with, like, a mindset shift, because a lot of times, like the initiation is the hard part, and like showing yourself that you can do things differently is the hard part because, especially if people have been in like the same kind of routine for a while, like starting to cook, like that’s really awkward. It’s really hard to start to do that.

And so, being sort of expecting that and knowing that’s part of the process of being okay with that is important. And I think it’s kind of interesting, too, because people, like all of us, we’re always looking to sort of optimize, and so we’re trying to look like, “What is the eating plan? What is a good exercise thing so I can lift and gain muscle and be strong and all these things?” But, oftentimes, we make them really complicated. And it doesn’t have to be that complicated and it doesn’t have to be that prescribed.

If your goal is to eat more home-cooked meals and you cook once a week on a Saturday, like that’s great. You’ve done it now. It doesn’t have to be that now you’re scratch cooking and meal prepping all week on a Sunday, and spending your whole Sunday doing that. So, that’s kind of like the first section of advice I give people, is kind of reorienting them to what’s possible in those kinds of common domains that we know about, and also to get creative about it.

There are all sorts of interesting ways to incorporate those things. I mean, maybe not sleep because then you’re just asleep. I mean, you can put in naps and stuff like that but, I mean, there’s like a thousand different ways to exercise, and a lot of them can be done in your house without any equipment. And so, just kind of figuring out what that looks like, I think, is important. So, that’s where we start usually. I don’t know if that answers the question, but that’s a strong place to start.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah. Well, I think it’s handy in terms of, I think, that’s like a top don’t with regard to stress management, is don’t just look at the moon and stars, like the utmost perfect exercise plan, the perfect amount of sleep, “Oh, yes, I should be sleeping seven to nine hours every night in complete darkness and silence, dah, dah, dah, with a bed that’s dynamically adjusting its temperature for me.” They haven’t sponsored the show yet. I mean, we’ll see.

But, okay, “Well, that’s beyond my reach, so just forget it all, you know.” Rather, it’s like, “Okay, well, what is creative? What is realistic? And what’s fine?” in terms of exercise or give you some more sleep, whatever, that’s really nifty. So, then it sounds like, with regard to the shiny advice, you don’t have a one weird trick to instantly calm down, but rather, “Hey, just do the little stress-relieving things we all know about in reasonable approachable proportions.”

Dr. Janna Koretz
Yes, I think a lot of that ties back into sort of black-and-white thinking. You’re right, it’s like, “It has to be all of it or none of it,” and like, we’re all kind of predisposed to that for various reasons. But the gray is fine, like good enough is excellent. And if you’re just looking to change your behavior, to make new habits, and also gain those advantages from doing all that stuff, it doesn’t have to be wild times. So, yeah, don’t do the big things. And also, if you’re looking to calm down, don’t tell people to calm down. That’s another don’t, right? Don’t do that.

Pete Mockaitis
Super. And if we find ourselves in the workaholic mode, what are your tips there?

If we are in a zone where it’s like, “I have to do this,” or, “I just am having so much fun, you know, work, work, working away for 13-plus hours a day.” I imagine this comes up frequently with your folks in high-pressure careers. How do you advise them?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I think you have to think about what motivates you in life and what makes you happy, right? It comes back to the value stuff again a little bit, where there are people who work all the time and they’re happy, and that’s fine. You know what I mean? Like, think about like a lot of physicians spend a lot of time at the hospital, and, I mean, they don’t love their 36 hours on call, but they enjoy their job and they’re not going to necessarily quit their job because they really like what they do.

I know a lot of people do like coding. They get into the zone, they’re coding with their headphones on and then, somehow, like eight hours passes. But that’s what makes them happy, they like to build stuff, they like to be creative. So, keep in mind too, like it’s not always bad to have a couple days or kind of like a job where you’re working all the time. It’s when it gets in your way and when it causes you distress and then you have to sit and figure out what it is, why that is, like, “What makes you happy? What doesn’t make you happy? How do you want to spend your time? What is motivating to you?”

Because a lot of times when you ask those questions, it starts out being really obvious, “Well, I’m motivated because I want to do a good job.” “Why do you want to do a good job?” “Because I want to make money.” “Okay, why do you want to make money?” “Because I want to be able to buy all this stuff.” “Okay, why do you want to buy all this stuff?” And you keep going through all those lines of questioning.

It usually comes down to something like, because anxiety or fear-based, “Because I didn’t have money growing up, because I’m afraid I won’t have it. I’m afraid if I don’t make it now, I won’t have it later. I have a family to support. I want to support my parents as they age,” and things like that. Or, people don’t really have a good answer for that, and that’s important, too, to know if you don’t know why you’re doing what you’re doing, then that’s a whole other conversation.

So, the line of inquiry is also incredibly important to kind of figure out what it is you’re doing and why you’re doing it and why you’re working so much.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I have to tell you, in general, I’m not a quotes person.

But I will share a piece of advice that’s kind of a quote that I do like and I follow, which is, one of my supervisors a long time ago, I was working in a long-term adolescent in-patient unit, it was a state hospital, and there’s like just a lot of chaos that comes with that in terms of even just the systems issues.

And I was complaining one day about, like, “Well, if it’s that, the answer’s so obvious. Why are they doing it this way, the administration, this, that, and the other?” And she was like, “Janna, you got to play by the rules to change the rules.” And I was like, “Ah, yeah.” Like, I’m not in a position right now to change the rules, but I could be one day if I play by the rules and check the boxes and get to the place where I need to be to make the change. I thought that was kind of like an interesting way of thinking about things.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study, or experiment, or bit of research?

Dr. Janna Koretz
It’s a controversial thing now, but I did like the Stanford Prison Experiment a lot, not because I think it was a great idea, but I think it really showed dynamics around people and pressure and power that I think are really important that we should be talking about and thinking more about.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Maybe controversial to say, but I’m going to say it anyway, I love The Coddling of the American Mind.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah, Jonathan Haidt. All right. And a favorite tool?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Boundary-setting.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Waking up before everybody does.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I think what maybe I might be known for is asking why maybe a little too much, but for the purpose of really getting people to think about things and wonder why things are the way they are. Like, “Why do we need to do this this way?” And this is true, I feel this way about therapy, in general, and psychology, in general, and just the way the industry is.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Our website is where we keep all the things, so AzimuthPsych.com, A-Z-I-M-U-T-H, psych. That’s where the burnout calculator, career enmeshment test, the values navigator are, all of the things we do, the people we see, other things that we like, that we share, other resources, where we’ve been in the media, things we’ve written about, stuff like that. It’s all in one place.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dr. Janna Koretz
You can’t think about it too much. Sometimes you just have to do it and see what happens.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Dr. Koretz, thank you. This is fun and I wish you much joy.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Thank you. You as well.