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Ida del Mundo

Apr 03
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1046: Boosting Your Drive to Enjoy Sustainable Success with Molly Fletcher

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Molly Fletcher reveals the key to building a career that’s sustainable and fulfilling.

You’ll Learn

  1. How to stop the negative self-talk and shift your mindset
  2. Why burnout happens–and how to avoid it
  3. Practical steps to build lasting resilience

About Molly

Hailed as the “female Jerry Maguire” by CNN, Molly Fletcher made a name for herself as one of the first female sports agents. During her almost two-decade career, Molly negotiated over $500 million in contracts and represented over 300 of sports’ biggest names.

Now as a World’s Top 50 Keynote Speaker, she delivers her inspiring message to audiences around the world. She is the author of multiple books, and her latest book, Dynamic Drive, became an instant USA Today #1 Non-Fiction Bestseller.

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Molly Fletcher Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Molly, welcome back!

Molly Fletcher
It’s awesome to be back with you, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so we’re talking about your book, Dynamic Drive, which sounds like something I’d sure love to have more of. Could you kick us off with maybe a super inspiring story of someone who was struggling but then made the switch and saw that sustainable success on the other side?

Molly Fletcher
Yeah, Pete, that’s awesome. Well, I think, fundamentally, I’d frame it with the fact that, as an agent for you know, almost 20 years as a sports agent, what’s so fascinating is that the fans see, with sports, all these moments of achievement. Like the fans see the trophies and the accolades and the big contracts, and these pivotal peak moments of achievement.

But, for me, what I saw every day, all day, day in and day out, for, literally, decades is everything in between the moment of achievement, everything that got them there, who they became in that pursuit, and what happened after the achievement, and who did it again and again, and why, and how. And so, they operated differently, and that is in part what Dynamic Drive is, is this pursuit of better every single day, and I unpack seven principles that are critical to living that way, and, in many ways, parking complacency to the side forever.

And so, it’s this focus not on a moment in time or on achievement, which is really the traditional definition of drive, this linear pursuit of an outcome, and dynamic drive is this continuous pursuit of better in a way that’s sustainable and anchored in purpose.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, that sounds like it could fire me up, sure.

Molly Fletcher
Are you fired up?

Pete Mockaitis
So, can we hear about someone who kind of lost the path, but then got back in the groove?

Molly Fletcher
Well, absolutely, I mean, I think that is, in part, my mission, is to help people recognize when they could be sliding into complacency and don’t really recognize it. You know, I talk about that there’s a big difference between contentment, which is totally a great thing to have your toes in the sand with a book in your hand on a beach and be content, and there’s a totally different thing when we think about complacency, which, to me, is this unintentional parking of something in your life that potentially actually matters to you a lot.

And so, I tell a story, actually, in the book about a gentleman that I really walked through something that I think is probably really helpful for your listeners, which is an alignment audit, which is an opportunity to pull back and say, “What are the things in my life that really, really matter to me? What are my most important people, things, behaviors, beliefs that matter to me deeply, you know, physically, mentally, emotionally, relationally, spiritually?”

Write all those down, and then rate yourself on a scale of one to ten on the amount of time, attention, and energy you’re giving those things that you’ve identified matter to you a ton. And so, I unpack a story in the book, to your question, of a gentleman by the name of Dave. And what he realized in doing that was, “Gosh, I got a gap. I mean, I say that my son is A1 and just such an important part of my life but I miss every one of his games and I go hunting every weekend.” And I say that it matters but he rated himself a five, and so that was a gap.

And I think we can all recognize the roles that we play in our life – wife, mother, sister, daughter, neighbor, parishioner, community member, leader. There’s a myriad of roles we play in our life, and I think we’ve got to recognize, “How do I show up as the best version of myself in those roles and be remarkably intentional about living into that in service of really leading the life and leaving the legacy that we want to leave in alignment with the things that really matter to us?”

And there are so many moments in my own life where I was pursuing this thing that I was told, candidly, as a wife and a mother when we had three kids in 12 months, Pete, which is sort of hard, it’s a little crazy, right? I mean, we had one and then we had twins. And everybody was like, “Molly, you can balance all this.” So, the peak of my career, 300 athletes, and coaches, team of agents, like you can balance all this.

And so, that was what I was trying to do, was I was trying to balance all of these things, which was a lot of things. And then I was finding myself completely exhausted and drained and feeling like a total failure and just fried. And, fundamentally, what was happening was I was attempting to take all of these various things and go to bed at night with a teeter-totter perfectly balanced, and I actually don’t even think that’s what we want.

I think what we want is alignment, which means that sometimes we will be out of balance, but it’s on purpose, right? Like, when I wrote my book, I was a little over-indexed from a work perspective. I’d take about a month plus in the summer and go to our cottage in northern Michigan where I’m out of balance with work, but I’m totally in balance, you know, I’m aligned with something that’s deeply valuable to me and my family.

So, I think it’s just critical to say, “What are the things that matter most? How can I live into that?” which isn’t balance, it’s alignment. And I had a guy that I interviewed actually on my podcast, Pete, and he said that when he, and this would be an example, he said that when he was going to play in his very first Super Bowl ever, and this guy was like selling shoes at Foot Locker a year before, so this was just incredible for him.

He, essentially, told his family, like, “Hey, I am fully locked in for the next two weeks, training for the Super Bowl. Like, my phone is going to be, I’m going to be locked in.” So, he was out of balance, but he was aligned with a really remarkably unique window of time and had communicated that to the people in his life who really matter, and then was able to have a really special experience.

So, he was getting ready to have a really incredibly unique and super special experience in the Super Bowl, so he was a little out of balance with his family, but he had communicated that in service of ensuring he could perform at his best in a moment, professionally, that really mattered to him.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And I think we had a guest, Dan Thurmon, who wrote a book called Off Balance On Purpose, and he’s, like, a yearly cyclist and gymnast.

Molly Fletcher
Cool.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think that’s a good visual, it’s like, yeah, there will be times in which you choose to be off balance, but in so doing, you get some momentum and a direction, and so you kind of handle your stuff appropriately elsewhere with the communication and the heads-up and all that kind of thing. Well, then tell us, when it comes to having a dynamic drive, what’s the big idea or core message that makes it all possible?

Molly Fletcher
Absolutely. Well, purpose is fundamental to dynamic drive in the sense that it’s the red thread that threads through it all. In other words, I think when we know why we do what we do, it changes what we do and it changes the way that we show up in moments that can be hard. And we know that when we’re pursuing a better version of ourself, we can unlock greater joy and greater fulfillment. We can align with the legacy that we want to leave.

And so, purpose is so critical because, you know, I think about athletes and coaches that I worked with, who had injuries and rehabs and trades, but if they were clear on why they were doing what they were doing, it gave them the strength to overcome, at some level, the speed bumps and the hiccups and the challenges, and we’re all going to have them.

But when we know why, and I often tell an analogy, sort of a metaphor of sorts where it’s like you have two high-rise buildings and you say to an individual, “Hey, look, I’m going to ask you to walk across the high-rise building, I mean, on a plank, across these two high-rise buildings. I’ll lay the plank over the top. It’s an inch and a half thick; it’s a foot and a half wide. It’s kind of a sunny day. Eighty percent of the people that walk across this plank to the other side make it. It’s a thousand feet high, five hundred feet apart, let’s say, 80% make it, 20% don’t.”

And I’ll ask a room of 1,000 people in a keynote, “Would you walk across that plank for a million bucks?” And I get five hands. “How about would you walk across for 5 million bucks?” and I get a couple more hands. And then I ask, “If the most important people in your life, the most important people in your life are on the other side, and the only way you could save them is if you walked across the plank?” Everybody’s hand shoots up before I can finish the sentence.

In other words, when we know why we’re doing something, it fundamentally changes our ability to show up in that moment with the kind of mindset that we need to execute. And so, I unpack seven keys, mindset, of course, being one of them, to living this way. But I’m watching you and you have a question, you’re contemplating something. I want to give you a shot here, Sparky. What do you got? Talk to me, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, one, I mean, you’ve crafted quite the visual, that I am imagining, and it is sort of terrifying, you know, thinking about the heights and whatnot. I think it reminds me of skydiving and more here. And so, yeah, it really does, emotionally, experientially, in the gut, crystallize a concept that can be very theoretical.

It crystallized a concept that can be a very theoretical and rational, it’s like, “Oh, yes, my family is important to me. Like, yes, I should have purpose, yes. Yes.” And yet, when you put it that way very sharply, it becomes quite clear, “Millions of dollars would be pretty cool but not worth risking my life for,” versus, “My family, no question.”

So, it’s kind of like, if you’re willing to risk your life for something, and yet not something else, then it’s not too far of a stretch to say, “Well, then how will you spend your life? How will you choose to invest your finite hours before you expire in that which is truly meaningful?”

And it’s quite easy to get sucked into all kinds of things that you’re like, “Well, wait a second, this is cool and helpful, but it’s not my purpose. This is fun and interesting, and I’d like to be helpful to other people. I don’t want to let them down. I want to make good use of my degree in certain reasons, rationales, excuses, any of them,” but it’s a much higher bar and far fewer things are worth risking our life for and, thus, spending our life in pursuit of.

Molly Fletcher
Absolutely. And I think that fundamental question, that is so important to consider, kind of to your point, is, “What are you chasing?” I had a friend who, I mean, she’s got a promotion and raises and all these things, but she was looking at me, saying, “I’m exhausted. I’m traveling constantly. I’m disconnected from my husband, and my daughter and I are sideways. I’m not sleeping. I’m gaining weight. I’m not exercising,” and she was just in a really tough place.

And I remember looking at her, and she had a huge job, and she had gotten this promotion, and I said, “What are you chasing?” And she looked at me, and was like, “What kind of a question is that? What do you mean?” Well, I’m like, “Well, like, it doesn’t sound like you’re having, fundamentally, like, just fun and it sounds like you’re compromising some things that matter. And so, like, I’m just trying to, I mean, what is it?”

And I’m, like, waiting for her to go, “Well, I’m going to do this for six months so that I can do X.” She goes, “What do you mean?” I said, “Well, what is it all for? I mean, your daughter is 16. What is it all for? What are you chasing?” And she didn’t have an answer. And so, I think it is a very difficult question to answer, but it’s a really important one to answer because we want to know that.

Otherwise, I think sometimes we just find ourselves on a treadmill on 10, holding on for dear life, with an incline of 10, and we’re not really sure where we’re going and why we’re going there. And so, I think we just have to take the time and the energy to get aligned in that regard so that we’re connected to the things that do matter to us.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, help us out, if some listeners are having a similar stuck response, “Uh, I don’t know, Molly,” what’s the path or the sequence by which we get some clarity and insight there?

Molly Fletcher
Well, I mean, the alignment audit, I think, is really powerful that we sort of just unpacked, which I think is a really cool way to get aligned with what matters, how much time and attention are you giving to the things that matter. So, that’s really critical and foundational relative to the opportunity to live with balance or alignment, not balance, in fact.

But then I unpack seven principles in Dynamic Drive, and one is mindset, right? So, oftentimes, we have what I call an inner critic that we want to turn into an inner coach. So, we think about in our lives the way that maybe an inner critic might talk to us, which is, “You can’t,” “Why me?” “I’m not good enough,” “I’m not this enough,” and we have these automatic thoughts to the tune of almost 80,000 a day, and some of them are that inner critic.

And so, what we want to do is, first, recognize the things, the scripts, the self-talk that are not taking us where we want to go, that are keeping us a little bit stuck, and then we want to shift that to truly a bit of an inner coach that’s going to take us where we want to go. So, I’ll give you an example.

Let’s say you say that exercise is important to you but the self-talk is, you know, “I just don’t have time. I mean, how in the world am I supposed to take time to exercise or work out when, I mean, I’ve got this job and I’ve got emails, and I’m married, I have kids, and I’ve got dinner, and I got all these things? And, like, I don’t have time. I don’t have time to work out.”

And, fundamentally, pulling back and saying, “Okay, well, what if I shifted that story to, when I take time to work out, I feel better, I sleep better, I make better food choices, I show up better for the people in my life who matter most? I need to take the time every day to ensure that I protect that time and I exercise because I show up better for the people in my life that matter.”

And then, when the inner critic comes in and that self-talk or that thing that might keep us stuck in this place, we shift to that better script. And I also encourage people to reinforce that new script. Maybe it’s something you write on your whiteboard in your office. Maybe it’s a sticky note on your desk. But we want to keep that new script in front of us so that, when we do slip, and that inner critic starts to find its way in, we can suffocate it with that new script.

So, mindset is a really, really critical place to start. And then, I talk about energy and discipline and curiosity, resilience, connection, you know, confidence, obviously, is critical, but this is a way of life that isn’t linear, in the sense that we might find ourselves in certain moments where we need a little bit more discipline, or we need a little bit more curiosity, or we’ve pushed hard and we need resiliency.

And so, it isn’t like A to B, B to C, C to D, right, and then, “Whoop, we’re there.” It’s the ability to circle back in and touch the things that we need in the moments that matter.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s lovely in terms of the reframe, what it’s for, makes all the difference as opposed to simply, “Well, I should. Well, you know, the government recommends I should have 150 minutes of moderate to vigorous aerobic activity each week.” It’s like, “Okay, that’s not much of a pull.” It’s like, “I should do it.” Or, now that I’m 41 years old and married with children, trying to have a hot bod is not really a motivator the way it was as a youth.

Molly Fletcher
That’s right.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, in the dating market with competitors that I had to pass it in the pursuit of the lady. So, yeah, that makes the world of difference, is getting clear on the underlying purpose or benefit, which serves as an antidote, a counter-response to the inner critic and head trash going on.

Molly Fletcher
And I think, oftentimes, people talk about burnout so much today. I actually think burnout is really a result of doing too much of the things that don’t align with what matters most to you, that don’t align with your purpose. I don’t think burnout is a result of working too much. I think it’s working on the things that don’t matter to you.

And so, I also think we can keep burnout at bay because we’re pursuing something that is deeply critical to what matters to us relative to who and how we want to be and do whatever it is that we do in our life.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. So, I’m curious then, if we find ourselves in a spot where, let’s just say with jobs, like, “Hmm, that’s ringing a bell, Molly. I am feeling a touch of burnout, and it’s because I don’t actually, deep down, care much about what I’m doing. It’s a job. It pays bills. That’s handy. It would be cool to do some other things, but I don’t know,” how do we start to work with that?

Molly Fletcher
Yeah, for sure. Well, I think we also have to recognize that, not everybody’s work is going to also be their purpose. Is it ideal and optimal? Absolutely. But the purpose might be that we have to shift our mindset to one that then allows us to make the life for our children a little bit better than ours was, or gives us an opportunity to do X or Y.

So, we want to take the time to, certainly, if we can do the work that we believe is our life’s mission, that is absolutely ideal, no question about it. And I think what I would push somebody that’s in that place to recognize is maybe there’s an opportunity to understand, beyond the paycheck and beyond the check clearing and beyond the money, what, in fact, is underneath all that, that is making an impact in a way that’s deep and real and substantive?

I spoke at an event for a payments company, a financial payments company, and it was interesting. The leader really pushed, you know, you would say, “Well, I didn’t wake up in all my life where I was dying to run payroll for people.” And she really pushed people to understand that, “Look, we execute against the payroll of, I mean, just enormous amounts of individuals in the world. And that then, in turn, creates meals and family dinners and people sitting around a table.”

And so, look, is that a stretch? Maybe, but maybe that’s a way to reframe it in service of saying, “You know what, this isn’t really about payroll. This is about something bigger and deeper than that.” And then I think we have to have the courage to recognize that maybe, that our legacy, the thing we want on our tombstone, isn’t directly aligned with what we do day in and day out, but it feeds the thing that is, in fact, maybe be more deeply threaded relative to our purpose.

I would encourage people to recognize the power of saying, you know, I think, oftentimes, people will say, or will hear, “I don’t have a choice. I don’t have a choice.” I think that we actually have more choices than sometimes we really want to face. And I think we have to have the courage to really go, “Do I not, really? Like, maybe there is something that I could change. Maybe there is something that could pivot, that would allow me to align my purpose more directly to the work that I’m doing and in service of me feeling like I’m living into that more deeply.”

And I think taking the time to explore the fact that we have a fair amount of control on where we put our energy, more so than, I think, sometimes we can admit to, and it’s hard. It doesn’t mean it’s easy, but, I mean, we have to, at some level, have the courage to ask ourselves some difficult questions that could help us create that alignment.

And I think we also have to have people around us that have no agenda, but to help us be the best version of ourselves, that can help us unpack maybe where there’s gaps and opportunities for us to step into our purpose.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s cool. And I’m curious, then, you’ve got seven keys to unlock our dynamic drive: mindset, energy, discipline, curiosity, resilience, connection, confidence. That’s a lot for an interview. But we talk about mindset here, it boils down to a set of beliefs, kind of shaping how we see the world and ourself in it. Are there any just phenomenal core beliefs that just make a world of difference in terms of having that drive?

Molly Fletcher
I think, fundamentally, it’s recognizing that talent alone and our sort of isn’t enough to sustain high performance, to even potentially get to the best version of ourselves. Like, to me, talent is a fantastic thing, and we all have God-given talents. But, for me, I can tell you as an agent, there was a lot of athletes and coaches that had a lot of talent, but they didn’t get there or stay there, because talent isn’t enough. So, we need talent plus curiosity, plus discipline, plus mindset, plus energy.

Molly Fletcher
I think that they, fundamentally, recognize that it isn’t about a finite moment in time, that it’s an inside-out pursuit of better, not an outside-in pursuit. In other words, it’s not about pursuing an outcome, it’s about who we’re becoming from the inside out. And it’s not over indexing on a focus on an outcome or a moment in time, but rather on who we’re becoming in that pursuit of that outcome, of better.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So then, I’m curious then, does that translate into some mantras, some convictions or affirmations or things that we return to if we’re feeling some drift away from these bedrock beliefs?

Molly Fletcher
Absolutely. I mean, I think when we think about that, I appreciate that question, I mean, one is it’s where obstacles, where some people might see an obstacle, if you’re living into dynamic drive, you see opportunity. You see what’s possible. I tell a story in the book about a baseball player I represented who went from a starter in the big leagues to a closer, then back to a starter, All-star Hall of Famer.

Now, in that moment, when the world thought he’s insane, “What is he doing? He’s too old. He can’t do this,” and everybody thought it was a gigantic obstacle, he saw it as an opportunity, so it was a shift. So, we’re walking into a meeting, we’re walking into a conversation, we’re stepping into some change, we’re stepping into a challenge that most people, and, traditionally, we might think is a complete and total obstacle, but when we recognize and shift the story that we tell ourselves to being an opportunity, I think it’s pulling back and saying, “You know what? I’m going to choose where my energy goes before everyone else in the world decides for me.”

And I think that’s so fundamentally important to recognize, is that if we don’t choose where our energy goes, other people will. I think another mantra, to your question, would be that most people overestimate talent and they underestimate discipline. I think about the key curiosity. Curiosity creates chances is often a mantra that I say. Curiosity can create choices, for sure, in our lives if we’re curious.

And I think when we think about resilience, what feels important to recognize is that resilience is about fundamentally recognizing the difference between being good and being terrific, being outstanding at whatever it might be in our lives, personally or professionally. It’s about recovering fast. I think about tough days we have, tough conversations, tough moments, tough meetings, tough phone calls. We have them. We’re all going to have them, and particularly if we choose to live into dynamic drive. We’re going to have hiccups.

What’s critical is that we recover very quickly, and part of that is going to that mindset key and shifting from what potentially is an obstacle into an opportunity. And, for me, through the lens of sports, I saw so many athletes miss shots they should make, putts they should make, spray, you know, their drive off into the rough, but what they do is they don’t let it unravel. They tell themselves the right script for them, and then they reset. So, obstacles being opportunities.

I think the other one, when we think about connection, Pete, that I think is important, that I share a story about a contract I negotiated for a coach who then changed his mind the next morning after signing six contracts and a record-setting contract. And the mistake was being too transactional that I made.

And so, I think when we think about connection, it’s keeping relational at the center, not transactional. I often say we want to be relational, not transactional. And in all the keynotes that I give, whenever I have a conversation with the leaders or the stakeholders before a keynote, I’ll often ask, “Are relationships important to the work that they do?” And, I mean, literally, I’ve done a thousand keynotes, and nobody says, “No, relationships don’t. This is not really that big of a deal for us.” Everybody’s like, “Oh, totally. I mean, relationships are everything.” So, being relational, not transactional.

I think the other one is that confidence, you know, when we think about the key and the principle of confidence. Confidence doesn’t come from being comfortable. Confidence comes from taking action inside of maybe a little bit of discomfort. That’s how we actually strengthen our confidence. In other words, we can’t sit in a corner and think our way to being and showing up in the world more confidently. We have to take action to do that.

Confidence comes from stepping out of your comfort zone into what I often call the stretch zone. So, those are a couple little mantras that I think are important to lean into.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. Well, thinking about resilience, tell us, you’ve got a cool vantage point, having seen a lot of athletes with a lot of resilience, how do we get there, to have that mental toughness to really keep on stepping up? They say that which doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. And, it’s funny. I found that sometimes that’s true and sometimes it’s not. It’s like, “No, I feel like I was maimed by that. I feel wounded and harmed by that encounter as opposed to strengthened.” So. what makes the difference and how could we indeed get back up stronger?

Molly Fletcher
I would argue that it’s not even about getting back up, back to the watermark of where we potentially were, but actually better because of maybe that hiccup, that moment in which we needed to wipe off our knees. I think what’s important is, number one, as leaders, potentially who are listening, or parents, we often want to catch people before they fall and sort of save them from that.

But we need these moments where everything doesn’t always work out perfectly and we “fail,” but that builds our resilience muscle and gives us the confidence to keep pushing and stepping back into moments that are a little bit of a stretch. And I think we live in a world, particularly as a parent, where we sort of kind of shield our children from the falling and the skinning of the knees, and I think that they need to do that. And, obviously, I mean, if they’re running out in front, you know, there’s obvious moments when we want to stop somebody from something.

But there’s also moments where, “You know what, let’s let that hiccup happen, and let me be right there as a parent beside him to help him navigate out of it.” Or, as a leader, putting, you know, allowing somebody to have a little bit of a hiccup, potentially, in service of helping them strengthen and recover from that moment and show back up better.

I think we have to be intricately aware of the importance of everything not going swimmingly every minute of the day, and allowing ourselves to recognize the power and the confidence that’s created, the strength that’s created when we have to recover. Think about working out, right? It fundamentally is taxing the muscles when we go lift, but that is in service of them building up again and building and coming back stronger.

So, there are so many opportunities in our lives when we can step into that moment, ask that question in the meeting, like, push. You know, people often ask me, because I’ve negotiated so much, like, “How do I get better?” Reps. Like, work the barista at the Starbucks for, like, an extra shot of espresso for fun. Like, I negotiated a buy-two-get-one free kind of orthodontics thing for our daughters when they were getting braces when they were young.

That’s a safe environment to practice asking for what you want, and it might not work and that’s okay. But I think we strengthen that resilience muscle by stepping into the stretch zone. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. We want to try to do it in as many safe moments as we can, but we want to recognize that what happens as a result of that is we strengthen that muscle and we can come back maybe just a little bit stronger the next time, and the next time, and the next time.

But we have to tell ourselves that. I have a thing on my computer, Pete, I call it my smile file, and I just drag and drop like emails and notes and LinkedIn and all that. I mean, it’s just a blessing, and I’ll just drag and drop them from time to time into my little smile file. And after maybe a tough day or a tough moment or a tough meeting or a tough conversation, or anything, you kind of open that up and look at it, and go, “Okay, you know what? I got this.” Right?

And maybe it’s something physical on your desk. As an agent, athletes, they go to film to reset. That’s how athletes often will recover. They’ll go watch their best golf swings. They’ll watch them standing over a putt in a critical moment in training, they go watch their at-bats when they’re just crushing it. And they remind themselves, “Okay, yeah, right. Like, I got this,” and they get that in their head before they step back out to the next moment.

And I think we, as business people, we don’t really go to film, but what can we lean into that can help us reset? Sometimes it’s a smile file or something physical.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s beautiful. And as you talk about it, it’s funny, we had a guest who talked about having a humor first-aid kit, so I just assemble things that I think are funny, and that’s helpful for a mood pick-me-up, for sure.

Molly Fletcher
A hundred percent.

Pete Mockaitis
But the smile file, I like it, in terms of it’s generally me being awesome, crushing it, winning, performing well. Cool. And then I I’m thinking, maybe I’m overthinking it, Molly, but I think it could be quite powerful to have sort of subfolders in your smile file associated with kind of wherever the self-doubt is cropping up. It’s like, “Oh, I’m no good at sales. It seems like I’m always blowing the meeting when I finally get it,” or whatever it is, like, “I’m not good at speaking,” “I’m not creative,” “I’m a bad husband,” sort of fill in the blanks, you know?

Then to have, it’s like, “Well, time out, let’s review some film, or smiles, or let’s review some historical evidence. Yes, I had a disappointing outcome a moment ago, and let’s just put that in the context of, ‘Oh, yeah, there was that one time I closed that massive deal out of nowhere. Oh, there’s that one time I won over that person,’” etc., and it seems like that’s sort of not just a humor first-aid but a first-aid for any emotional mental wound of confidence that’s hitting you.

Molly Fletcher
A hundred percent. I mean, I think that’s great, I mean, I think to have those subcategories. I often will tell salespeople to pull back and think of, “What are the most, your top ten, top five sort of rebuttals, like pushbacks when you’re selling, for example? Go attach a story to that, that aligns with how you’ve actually created a positive outcome for an existing client, relative to what is often maybe a rebuttal or pushback that you get. And build up that story bank of great stories that you can then lean into to help offset what is, an often, common rebuttal.”

To me, that can be really powerful, too, is stories are such a powerful thing that we can use whether even if it’s externally as well, so we can preload those. And so, when you said those subfolders, it made me think of the way that I often think about that from a sales perspective, that can be a powerful thing to do, too.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s good, that handling objections, like handling your own inner critics’ objections to your worth or competence.

Molly Fletcher
Totally. Yes, for sure.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Molly Fletcher
“When you ask for the business, you get advice. When you ask for advice, you get the business.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Molly Fletcher
There was a study out of, I talk about this in Dynamic Drive, I want to say it was out of Princeton, but it was a really interesting study about the power of dopamine that it has on our pursuits. And so, essentially, it was recognizing the fact that when we acknowledge our effort along the way, and that we actually drip dopamine that helps us continue to pursue it.

And so, it’s just important that, as we set goals, that we don’t set them in isolation. And it proved it scientifically relative to the power of recognizing that, “Hey, I’m doing a good job. I’m on the right track. Things are tracking. Like, we’re going to do this. We’re going to get here.” It actually drips a little bit of dopamine that helps keep us motivated, because motivation, you know, it wanes, right? So, sometimes we can tap into that natural substance we all have inside of us.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Molly Fletcher
The Alchemist was a book I read when I was young. And, to me, it was just an incredible story, really, of purpose. And that’s probably my favorite along with the Bible.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Molly Fletcher
I would say it is, essentially, my energy audit that I unpacked in the key, but it is a tool that ensures that I protect and create micro-breaks throughout the day and protect the things that really give me energy throughout the day because I think if we don’t carve out micro-breaks and other things that give us energy, it’s not sustainable to go back to back to back all day. We’ve got to make sure that we build in those breaks.

Pete Mockaitis
And a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, you hear quoted back to you often?

Molly Fletcher
“Be where your feet are,” is something that I often say about being present, and people seem to really connect to that. “Be where your feet are,” that we tell ourselves that when we need to really show up and be present.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Molly Fletcher
My podcast Game Changers with Molly Fletcher is awesome, or a place to start, or MollyFletcher.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Molly Fletcher
To me, that would be a final, I would say, that’s a really powerful call to action for people is to do an alignment audit. Identify the things in your life that matter most, rate yourself on how you’re doing in those things, and then, if there’s a gap on a 1 to 10 scale of greater than 2, that’s an opportunity to step into maybe some change, an opportunity to get better.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Molly, thank you.

Molly Fletcher
Thanks so much.

Mar 31
0

1045: How to Stop Overthinking and Build Mental Resilience with Joseph Nguyen

By | Podcasts | One Comment

Joseph Nguyen discusses the hidden relationship between thinking and suffering—and offers a powerful framework for achieving peace of mind.

You’ll Learn

  1. How to spot and stop negative judgments
  2. How to PAUSE overthinking
  3. How to beat procrastination with SPA

About Joseph

Joseph Nguyen is the author of the #1 international bestselling book, Don’t Believe Everything You Think, which has been translated into 40+ languages. He is a writer who helps others realize who they truly are beyond their own thinking and conditioning to live an abundant life free from psychological and emotional suffering. When he’s not busy petting his three cats that he’s allergic to, he spends the rest of his time writing, teaching, speaking, and sharing timeless wisdom to help people discover their own divinity from within and how they are the answer they’ve been looking for their entire lives.

Resources Mentioned

Thank You, Sponsors!

Joseph Nguyen Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Joseph, welcome!

Joseph Nguyen
Thank you so much for having me, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about your area of expertise. Your book, Don’t Believe Everything You Think, has just taken off tremendously. Congratulations.

Joseph Nguyen
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
And the title is so good. It’s so funny, Amazon auto-completes if you type, “Don’t believe everything you think.” It’s like, “Nice.”

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, that’s a great advertisement, I guess, and a great slogan just to have all over Amazon. It’s what it should be, instead of all the stuff that we don’t need to be buying.

Pete Mockaitis
Don’t buy many other things here.

Joseph Nguyen
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so can you take us through the journey a little bit of how you and your relationship to thought and the insights that you discovered came to be in your own personal lived existence?

Joseph Nguyen
A lot of what I’ve come to realize comes from, this is not new information. This has been here for eons, thousands of years, from everyone and so many different countries, cultures. I mean, I draw influence from Western philosophy, Eastern philosophies, Zen Buddhism, Christianity. So much cognitive behavioral therapy. Like, you name it, there’s probably some sort of influence there.

But I think the only time that I was able to actually integrate it into my life was when I sort of hit a rock-bottom moment where, after I really tried as much as I possibly could all the options that were available to me, like, I mean, there’s therapy, there’s acupuncture, acupressure, there’s going vegan. I did all these things and it didn’t really quite work until it forced me to look internally.

I was trying to do everything to change everything outside of me, so changing people’s behaviors, how they viewed me, how they judged me, wanting and trying to earn other people’s approval, love, all these sorts of things, all these attempts at finding what could only be found within. So, I think the moment where I kind of hit rock bottom, which was a point in my life where, I mean, I had a business that was growing. It was going great. I accomplished a lot of the goals that I had, but at the cost of my own mental health.

So, every single day, I was just so chronically anxious, borderline depressed. I was probably depressed. I just wouldn’t admit it to myself that that was it. And I just didn’t know when the next client was coming from. I didn’t know if we’re going to have enough money, food. My partner, now wife, she had a lot of physiological illnesses.

So, she had gastroparesis, and so she couldn’t eat, got a feeding tube, hospitalized multiple times. All of that was happening concurrently with, basically, my business falling apart. Then my business partner and I split. I went 50,000 into debt at around 21, 22 years old. And so, all of that happened within a span of about a year.

And so, that was probably the rock-bottom moment that I hit, where I thought, after accomplishing everything that I wanted, that it would give me this internal peace and joy, but it did the exact opposite. And that was because I didn’t realize where peace comes from, and it doesn’t come from manipulating the environment or other people or the world to whatever I think it needs to be. It comes from releasing that desire, that need to change everything outside of me except myself.

So, rock bottom, I think pain is a great motivator and catalyst for change. Most people, like myself, probably wouldn’t change if it wasn’t absurdly painful. So, I’m actually very grateful for those experiences, but it’s quite difficult to go through it. But that was the genesis of the turning point for me.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, thank you for sharing that. That’s heavy, and it’s a lot. And I think what you’re articulating dead on, we just chatted with Anne-Laure Le Cunff, who discussed the arrival fallacy, this notion, “Ah, yes, when this happens, then it’ll be smooth sailing. I’ll be happy. I’ll be free. I’ll be at peace. All my problems will be solved.”

And it just doesn’t work out that way. And sometimes we don’t believe it until, as you’ve said, we experience that pain. We have arrived and go, “Uh-oh, shoot, these feelings are still there, that lack of peace is still there.

Joseph Nguyen
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
So, what then? What happened next?

Joseph Nguyen
So, it basically forced me to look inside, because I was trying all these modalities to help, and they did help to a certain extent, but it didn’t really change that much. And it puzzled me, because I thought to myself, “I surely can’t be the only one going through this. So that’s when I started looking for a lot of different solutions.

And then I started questioning my own experiences, and other people’s experiences too, which is I think most people, if not every single human, goes through extremely difficult and challenging events and times or even traumas.

And so, I started to ask myself and run thought experiments, where it was like, “If two people, have similar traumas, how is it possible that one person can spiral downwards and fall into a deep depression and isn’t really able to get out of it, while another person who has gone through something similar is able to make amends and make peace with the past and become okay with what happened?”

And not only that, but become empowered by what happened and go on to want to help other people not experience the same thing. How is that possible if we can’t go back and change the past? So, neither one of them went back to alter the events in any single way, which means it’s not the events that was changed, but their own thinking about what happened to them.

And so, that sparked an epiphany, which was, our emotions don’t come from external events, they come from our own thinking about the events, which is our own judgments, our own opinions, our own criticisms about the event, or even ourselves and our own thoughts about whatever happened. And so, that was what kind of made a giant light bulb moment for me, which is like, “Oh, my gosh, there’s no way to change the past, but I can always change the way that I’m viewing it. Is this helpful or hurtful? This sort of incessant nonstop negative judgment of life, of myself, of other people?”

And so, that spawned a whole slew of new questions for myself, which was like, “Why do I do that? Why do I constantly wish things were different? Why do I constantly tell myself that I’m not enough, not good enough, not smart enough, not whatever it is, and repeating these stories to myself?” And I never stopped to ask myself, “Is that actually helpful? When has overthinking helped me?”

And so, I realized then that overthinking doesn’t solve problems, it creates them and exacerbates them. And I just didn’t understand that I could just not judge, negatively judge, the things that are happening in my life or myself. That was an extremely liberating moment for me. And, I mean, most of the thoughts that we have, we have over 60,000 thoughts in a single day. How is it possible that every single one of those thoughts is true? There’s no way, right?

And if it were true that we are our thoughts, what happens to the thought that just passed our minds, that just left? We’re still here.

Pete Mockaitis
I’d disappear.

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we’re still here, right? So, that means we are something beyond our thoughts. Same thing with emotions. If we are our emotions, if I am depressed, or if I am anxious, if I am those things, or I am happy, what happens when those things pass, anxiety or happiness? I’m still here. How is that possible?

So, we are not our thoughts and we are not our emotions then. We are something greater than that. And that is the feeling and the space that I sink back into to finally find some peace because I realize that everything in life is transient, including our thoughts. And if we are the common denominator that is still here, then those fleeting things can’t be possibly us. That was the eye-opener for me.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Wow, there’s so much good stuff here, and I’m just drawing all kinds of connections. I recall I was in a therapy session once, and I posed the same question, and it’s like, “So, is it true that, like Nietzsche or Kelly Clarkson says, that which doesn’t kill you makes you stronger?” Or, is it the opposite experience in which, “No, I had a bad thing happen to me and I’m somehow less strong, weaker, not as capable as a result of the experience”?

So, it’s like, “So which is it? And under what circumstances, and why, and what’s the distinction?” And he didn’t give me the easy answer, “That’s one of the greatest questions of therapy.”

Joseph Nguyen

He was amping you up, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
So, yeah, I mean, and that is one of the assertions, I believe, of cognitive behavioral therapy or of Shakespeare. There’s nothing good or bad, but rather thinking makes it so, and our cognitive distortions or our thoughts about things and judgments shape the emotional reactions and experiences we have. And we had a Navy Seal Alden Mills sharing some similar notions, like, “Hey, is this thought helpful or hurtful? All right. Well, then let’s bring some energy to the helpful thoughts.”

And we got some real wisdom there. It’s, like, we cannot be our thoughts, we cannot be our emotions, because our thoughts and our emotions are ever shifting and changing. And that sounds wise and familiar. Is this coming from a wisdom tradition? Or is this a Joseph original?

Joseph Nguyen
Oh, no, nothing is original from me. Creativity is just a blend of a lot of different parts and combining it into something seemingly new. But it’s all from Eastern philosophy, some Western, right, some Stoicism, Zen, Buddhism, in that there’s tons of psychology in there, right? Like cognitive behavioral therapy uses so much of this in terms of questioning our own thoughts, our own emotions, trying to figure out the root cause of all this. So, all of that, I definitely stand on the shoulders of many, many giants from centuries or millennia.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, you put a stake in the ground, and it seems like you’ve got some real conviction here, that it is, indeed, our thoughts and judgments and overthinking, over-thoughts, about a situation that is the source of our depression, anxiety. And I’m thinking, is it the only source, the primary source? Are we sure about this? It sounds true-ish, but what’s our best evidence for it?

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, that’s a great question. So, in terms of emotions, there’s no way to really prevent “negative emotions.” Those will always come and go. What I propose in the book is less about preventing them, but to reduce the time spent experiencing those emotions. Because a lot of times, we are replaying and ruminating on memories of the past, and bringing them into the present moment and reliving that experience from a certain vantage point of it, which may or may not be true, I don’t know.

But if it makes us feel a lot of anxiety or depression or resentment, is that possible for us to change? And if so, then how? And so, in the book, I started to realize, like, let’s say there’s a lot of people in veteran hospitals or recovering in Alcoholics Anonymous or tons of people who have been through so many different things. How is it possible that there’s people that have gone through something similar, but then have different results?

So, it’s like, “What are they changing? They’re not going back in the past to do that, so they’re changing something now in the present moment to alter their experience.” And so, that’s where the book is coming from, which is like, “What can we do now that things have happened, and becoming more resilient, right?”

This is building and training emotional regulation and resilience rather than a prevention of emotions in totality, because a lot of times, sometimes emotions are very helpful. They help to protect us. They help give us signs. All emotions are messengers to help us and to show us what we need to pay attention to. That’s all emotions are.

But if we believe them to be the only source of truth and an ultimate conclusion about ourselves, then that’s where we run into trouble. And, let’s say, if we’re really depressed, then we might think about ourselves, and say, “We’re not enough. We’re not lovable. We’ll never find love.” These sorts of beliefs about ourselves, which is what I call “thinking” or “negative judgments,” those things are not necessarily that helpful and they harm us more than help us.

And so, is it possible to let those things go? And if so, how? So, for me, why I use the word “thinking” in particular is because it’s the best word I could find to explain the phenomena of just ruminating negatively on something. So I make a distinction in the book, thoughts versus thinking. A thought is a neutral observation or intuitive prompting about an event that happened.

Pete Mockaitis

“I would like to eat some food.”

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, that is a thought.

Pete Mockaitis
I mean, that’s a desire.

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, that could be a desire.

Pete Mockaitis
A thought and a desire.

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, and then thinking, on the other hand, is a negative judgment about an event or your own thoughts. So, let’s take a scenario.

Pete Mockaitis
“I’m overweight. I shouldn’t eat all this food.”

Joseph Nguyen
Right. See, “should” is a great indicator that we’re thinking, right? That’s usually a preliminary word that we use before we judge ourselves. And so, an example of this is, let’s say it’s raining outside. A thought is, “It’s raining.” That’s a neutral observation. Thinking, on the other hand, would be something like, “Why is this happening? Why does this always happen to me? This rain completely ruined my day. I’m always unlucky like this.”

All of this thinking about the thought of it raining is not as helpful to us and is the source of all this suffering. So, let’s say we did have something planned and it rained and it ruined our day, that’s unfortunate, right? Like, we had plans, we planned for it, but is it possible to not let it ruin our entire day? Is it possible to let go of this emotional suffering within a few minutes?

And so, that’s why I say that’s the thinking part of whatever is going on. And although we can’t change the event or even our initial thought of it, we can always let go of the thinking or judgment about whatever is going on, and that’s where the power lies. For example, thoughts have no power over us unless we believe them to be true, right? So, the belief in the judgment is what causes this suffering and is the difference.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Well, now, as you use the word “thinking,” I am wondering if we could have other, do some other thinking, or judging about the rain in a positive fashion, in terms of, “At last, the crops will be nourished by this rain,” or, “You know what, let’s just frolic like a child.”

And so, in your definition, would you still call that thinking even though it has maybe a positive vibe or feeling associated with it?

Joseph Nguyen
I think there’s two different categories of what we can call positive thinking. On one hand, it could just be an intuitive prompting. An example of that would just be, “It’s raining. Let’s go outside and play in the rain.” It doesn’t necessarily have to skew towards, “This is the best thing that’s ever happened in the entire world.”

See, like where we can over-exaggerate positive thinking is equally where we can fall short of it because who’s to say it is the best thing in the entire world? Because if it’s raining here, it might flood somewhere else. So, it’s very difficult to just, ultimately and conclusively, say if this is good or bad. And so, if we are overly positive about something, then it opens us up for, “Well, what if that might not be the case?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, so it might feel good, but we’re not necessarily getting closer to truth or accurate representation of reality.

Joseph Nguyen
Correct, yeah. And we can skew both ways, and that’s when positive thinking can then open us up all sorts of cans of worms. But that’s not to say that positive thinking doesn’t work, and I don’t want to say that at all. It certainly does work, but the question is, “Is it sustainable? And is it based in reality?” So, if we observe the rain, and we’re like, “Oh, look, it’s like nourishing the crops,” like that’s a neutral and true observation, like it is feeding the plants and all that stuff, and we can feel good about that.

But what I also observed as well was, once we let go of the negative judgment about things, we are naturally at peace. We are naturally more joyful. We skew towards that way. And if you look at children that are a couple years old, they skew towards happiness. They’re smiling, they’re happy, unless they’re like hungry or like something is physiologically wrong. They’re generally just very positive, very happy, laughing all the time.

And that’s our natural state as well if we don’t negatively judge whatever situation is going on. If we let go of worrying about the future or ruminating and resenting the past, that is our default state. So, you don’t necessarily have to try to be positive. And other examples I love giving is, think about or recall a time where it’s like you were very anxious, or stressed, or overwhelmed. Like, how much thinking is going on?

Pete Mockaitis
Plenty.

Joseph Nguyen
Too much, right? But then if we flip and invert the question, recall a time when you were your happiest, in a total state of flow, and you lost track of time, how much thinking was going on then?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it’s, I guess per your definition of thinking, like, very little. Although, if you’re in a flow and doing a thing, you naturally have to—

Joseph Nguyen
You’re having thoughts.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, you’re having thoughts, but you’re not thinking in the Joseph-sense of the word.

Joseph Nguyen
Right, you’re not negatively judging the thoughts or experience that you’re having. You’re just in it, you’re fully immersed. That’s when you lose a sense of self, actually, and that’s when we are no longer psychologically suffering. And some people in the spiritual community will call this like the death of the ego. It’s when you just dissolve and you feel at one with everything. That’s what flow is and why a lot of times people will say like that’s this ideal state for humans to be in.

Athletes experience this very often when they’re in and playing a game during a competition. They’re not so much thinking about what’s going on. They are just intuitively responding and being there. And that’s like our ideal state that we’re in. Actually, the times that athletes think too much, they tend to miss the shots, or think too much about something and overanalyze, and that’s when they freeze and choke when they could have definitely done something different.

The same thing is true for our own lives. The more that we constantly just ruminate, judge, and criticize ourselves, other people, events, we tend to freeze, and go into fight-or-flight mode, and act as if our life really is in danger, and operate from a place of fear rather than love and expansion and joy.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Joseph, we’re getting near a zone I’ve been pondering for a while, which is, you talk about when we feel a sense of peace or joy and flow, contentment. And I’ve been reflecting on the distinction between contentment and boredom. Because, in terms of an external view of the situation, they’re almost the same.

It’s like, “Nothing’s really happening right now.” And yet, when we feel bored, we’re restless, agitated, and, I guess, negatively judging, “I don’t like that nothing’s going on right now,” versus when we are content, it’s like, “Ah, nothing’s going on right now.” And that feels restful, rejuvenating, restorative, and we like and appreciate the space that we find ourselves in.

So, I guess that is perhaps one of many examples of the judgment we bring to a situation, shaping it, but I’d love your pro tip. If we find ourselves bored and would rather be content, what should we do?

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, great question. So, boredom is not necessarily a bad thing. Boredom, a lot of times, is the birth of creation, new things, new hobbies, new thoughts, new ideas. If we’re not bored a lot of the time or sometimes, then we’re actually just recycling a lot of the same material from the past and constantly going and we feel like we’re in the hamster wheel. So, boredom is not necessarily bad. And when you see kids get bored, what do they do? They invent.

Pete Mockaitis
They invent some games.

Joseph Nguyen
Exactly. That’s what humans do. When we’re bored, we create, and so it acts as a great motivator. But where things can go a little bit south is when we say, “Oh, instead of being content with what’s happening right now,” let’s say we’re on vacation, “I should be working. If I’m working these hours, I could make so much more money or I have all these emails I need to get to.”

You’re not able to actually enjoy yourself in the present moment, and you’re constantly thinking about the future and all these things you need to get done, that’s when the “boredom” or what we would call that in that case, that’s when it robs our peace and takes it away from us is when we think we need to be doing something else other than what we’re currently doing or experiencing.

So, in that case, what I love recommending to do is just to schedule those things and just, like, if you’re on vacation, like that’s the boundary you need to draw for yourself. But if we don’t draw boundaries, it will creep in. All of these beliefs that we have, all these negative judgments that we have about ourselves or what we should and shouldn’t be doing, they will come in unless we set that boundary for ourselves.

Like, “If I’m on vacation, my phone is off,” or, “I’m not taking emails or whatever it is.” But without those, they will creep in and they will start to fester and become uncontrollable at that point. And this is really a practice of presence more than anything else. Are we able to do and give our full attention to what is happening right now in front of us? Or, are we distracted and thinking about something else in the meantime?

Peace comes from being present. It is a natural byproduct of doing so. The more that we are able to do that, that’s the happier we will be, for sure.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m reminded of the Scientific Journal article, “A Wandering Mind is an Unhappy Mind,” which, I think it was Kahneman and company looked at just that in terms of empirically checking with people and, “Hey, what are you doing? What are you thinking about?” and seeing the results. So, that’s that there. When you say boundaries, my first thought is sort of external things, like, “I will not be picking up my smartphone,” “I will not be answering emails on vacation.” Do you have some thoughts for boundaries we have, like with ourselves and our own thoughts or experiences?

Joseph Nguyen
Those are the most important boundaries because we can change everything external but if we don’t change anything internally then we’re still going to suffer a lot emotionally. So, some of the most important internal boundaries that you so aptly alluded to are the judgments that we’re making that is really at the core of our emotional suffering, of our resentment towards others, to ourselves.

If we don’t draw that boundary, and say, like, “We will no longer judge ourselves in this light,” then we’re going to keep doing it. And we do this mostly because we’re not even aware that there’s an option out, that, “Oh, we can just not judge everything that’s going on? Like, there’s a way that, as I go about my life, I don’t have to constantly narrate and say this is good, this is bad, this is right, this is wrong, this should be happening, this shouldn’t be happening?”

We just aren’t taught that. Most people just don’t know, and I wasn’t aware of that until I was basically smacked in the face with it and had to hit rock bottom to find it. But that is probably the most important boundary to set, which is, “Can we let go of the judgments that we’re having about ourselves, the world, whatever’s happening? Are we able to enjoy it as it is?”

When we go about life, most of the time we judge everything, “This person’s good,” “This person’s bad,” “This person’s evil,” “This person’s not,” “This is beautiful or ugly.” Like, there are so many things that happen. But when we walk in nature, like how many of us are saying, “This flower is ugly. This flower is like beautiful,” or, like, “This tree is crooked or what”?

Like, we just observe and enjoy nature as it is rather than constantly pick apart every single thing that we think is wrong with this tree. As soon as we do that, that’s when we suffer. So, nature is a great way to reset because of that and it brings us back to our true nature, ironically, of just being aware and giving our full attention to someone without judging them. That’s what the basis of love is, unconditional love, which is to fully accept someone as they are without wanting to change them, without wanting them just to be something different.

Full acceptance of that is where peace comes from. This not only goes for people, but for situations, anything. That is the root of unconditional love. And use that thought experiment for yourself. Like, when do you feel most loved by someone? When they’re constantly judging you, nagging you, saying you should do this, saying you should be different, you should be better, you should be doing any of these things, or when they fully accept you as you are without judging? That is the goal of everything.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that. My children would say, when we do hugs and kisses in flying blanket mode.

Joseph Nguyen
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
But it falls into a subcategory of what you’re describing. I like that notion about the narration that we’re just doing it all the time, and it might not even seem too intense, like, “I’m such a stupid idiot.” But even just like, “Oh, oh, oh, the sun is kind of in my eyes. Oh, it’s kind of hot. Like, oh, I’m getting tired.”

Like, there you are in nature, you might not be condemning the tree for being crooked, but we are narrating and judging – well, I am often – experiences they’re in, in terms of like the air temperature or the illumination that is not perfectly aligned to the preferences I have in that moment.

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, and that’s where all the suffering comes from, is just what we wish would happen, what we want the world to be. But peace comes from letting go of what we wish everything would be and accept it for how it actually is. And, yes, same goes for anything in life, people, even ourselves. In AA, like one of the first steps is acceptance. The five stages of grief, acceptance is what you’re trying to go for.

And in CBT, acceptance of whatever emotions we’re feeling is also a core component of the whole process. So, at the end of it all, like all these different modalities are pointing to the same thing, which is, “Can I let go of the judgment that I’m having of whatever is happening and going on?” Once we’re able to let go of that thinking mind, the fear-based mind and the judgmental mind, then we’re able to find a little peace.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you said that we have the option to stop the narration, and I am a frequent Audible listener who likes to pause my audiobooks. And I understand you’ve got a little acronym you can walk us through.

Joseph Nguyen
Yes, exactly. So, this acronym, I tried to make it as actionable as possible in terms of, I mean, what we’re doing is letting go of the judgments. That’s the whole purpose of this. And so, this makes the act of letting go a little bit more tangible. So, the first letter in the acronym is P, which is pause. So, pause and take deep breaths, and you don’t need to get fancy with it. Just take five deep breaths. There’s no specific way you need to do it.

But it’s been scientifically proven that taking deep breaths allows us to lower our heart rate, to regulate our emotions, and to come back to center. So, just do that in the beginning of anything, because it’s really hard to regulate or do anything or make decisions or come back to yourself when we’re in a fight or flight mode. Next is A, which is ask ourselves, “Is this thinking useful?” Just like the other psychologists you mentioned before, like, “Is this thinking making me feel the way that I want?” If not, the next step is U, which is understand that you have the ability to let that thinking or judgment go. We always have that power. We may not be able to control our thoughts, but we can always control our thinking about the thoughts, and therein lies our entire power to change our experience of life.

S is, say and repeat the mantra, “Thinking is the root cause of suffering.” You can use any mantra in this matter. Another one, for example, would be, “I let go and choose peace.” Any mantra rooted in truth will work, and it needs to be short and memorable. What mantras do is that it’s very difficult to think of two things simultaneously.

So, what it does is it focuses your attention on this one thing, which means you can’t be thinking about the future or ruminating about the past. So, it forces focus and attention on something that is true. So, repeating that for maybe 30 seconds to a minute is really all you need, and that will slow the thinking mind. It will calm things down significantly.

That’s the basis of Transcendental Meditation as well, what a lot of the Tibetan monks use to go beyond the mind and to achieve oneness with the universe. But we take it here and you’re able to use it in real time.

Then E, the last step is to experience your emotions fully without resistance. So, we’re not trying to bypass the emotions by just not thinking about it. We’re actually removing the judgment of the emotions because what we resist persists. So, if we are resisting the anxiety, it usually gets worse, which is why a lot of times, when someone has a panic attack, they’re much more prone to more panic attacks simply because that’s how, it’s just like self-fulfilling, so to speak.

It’s like once we experience something and don’t want it to happen, we just put up a wall and just constantly resist it. But in physics, an object in motion will stay in motion, right? But also, for every force, there’s an equal and opposite force happening. So, if you have this force of an emotion and you’re resisting the emotion, that emotion is going to constantly be there and it’s going to stay stuck unless it passes through your system.

Anything that is stuck creates a significant amount of suffering. So, for a slightly more comical and light-hearted example is, like, if you eat a lot of food and it doesn’t pass through your system, what happens? Like, a week, a month passes, it’s going to be very painful and it’s going to cause all sorts of issues.

The same thing is true for our thoughts and emotions. The more that we hold on to our thoughts and don’t let them pass through, the more it’s going to cause us a lot of emotional suffering. Thoughts, emotions, all these things are transient and meant to pass through us, just like water flowing through a river.

As soon as a river is dammed up, that’s when wildlife begins to dwindle, fish begin to die, all these things start to happen. But as soon as the river is able to flow, that’s when life begins to flourish. That is the same thing for our own lives. So, letting thoughts and emotions pass through us without resistance. So, the way to do that is to create space within ourselves, to honor and hold the emotions, and to not judge them.

See them as another entity, like our inner child, or even one of our own children, and to hold them within our hearts, and to give them space to be there, without judging them, without saying, “You shouldn’t be here. Why are you here again?” That’s what we say to these emotions a lot of times, like, “Why are you still here, anger?” And we’re angry at the anger, and so it just compounds.

But as soon as we say, “Oh, you’re welcome here. You’re not an enemy. It’s okay.” As soon as you give children space, time, and attention, things begin to settle and we’re able to regulate. The same thing is true for all of our emotions and it passes so much more quickly when we’re doing this rather than kind of putting up a wall. So that’s the whole entire process.

Pause, take deep breaths. A, ask yourself, “Is this thinking helpful or useful?” U, which is understand you have the ability to let that thinking go. S, which is say and repeat the mantra. And E, which is experience your emotions fully without resistance.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. And if I may put some numbers into this, so you had a mantra, I counted, it was about seven words. Is that around the length that we’re thinking about? Like, if you push it to 20, it’s outside mantra zone?

Joseph Nguyen
Probably. It just creates so much more thinking and you’re probably going to have to try to remember, “Am I saying it right? Did I forget a word?” And you’re trying to make it as simple as possible so that you don’t have to overthink it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And then with experience, I think when I’ve resisted, historically, it’s been almost out of a fear that, “If I begin to experience this sadness, this sorrow, this grieving at this deeply unfortunate thing that has occurred, then will it swallow me? Will it persist for a long time and impact the things I need to do this day, this week, this month?”

And so, I can sometimes push away. But you say with the water flowing situation, and that which we resist persists, we are better off experiencing it fully. I mean, Joseph, for those fellow aversive pushers, away-ers…

Joseph Nguyen
Master push-up-ers, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
…how long are we in for a rough emotional experience if we allow it to hang out?

Joseph Nguyen
I will say shorter than if you’re resisting it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Joseph Nguyen
So, the irony in it is that, when we’re pushing it away, we think that we’re not dealing with it but we’re still suffering. We’re constantly thinking about it, we’re wishing it were different, we’re ruminating on it constantly, but what we don’t understand is that when we just allow it to be there, that it passes so much more quickly.

I think neuroscience is saying now that it takes about 90 seconds for an emotion to be regulated in our bodies. The only reason why it’s prolonged most of the time is that we begin ruminating on the event or judging the situation that happened, and it resets that time period. So, we’ll go 90 seconds, and right before that, we think about it again, we’ll judge it again, and it keeps prolonging the cycle.

And so, it only takes a few minutes to do this and to let go, and it’s not like the entire emotion will go away, but the intensity of the emotion will be drastically reduced than what it was when we were resisting. And, over time, as you build the muscle of emotional resiliency and emotional regulation, it becomes a little bit easier to do every single time. And the threshold in which we become overwhelmed is significantly expanded, so we can take on a lot more in life.

We’re able to do a lot more. We’re able to endure a lot of these events with a lot more grace and a lot more love. But, yeah, it’s definitely scary to kind of allow these emotions to come in because we think that we might not be able to handle it. We might crumble under the emotion. But you have to ask yourself, like we were saying before, like, “Am I my thoughts? Am I this emotion?”

And think about all the difficult times and trauma that you’ve been through, and all the trauma, like, you’re still here. So, I mean, you’re greater than every single emotion that you’ve ever experienced. And the same is true now and it will ever, and it will be true forever because those things are not us.

Pete Mockaitis
Joseph, beautiful stuff. Could you share any final thoughts before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, I would run micro-experiments with yourself. Like, you actually don’t have to believe anything that I’m saying, ironically, like the book title. Test it out for yourself. See if it’s true, if thinking is the root cause of your emotional suffering. And the way that you can test this out is to try to suspend judgment, negative judgment about yourself, your own thoughts, your own emotions, external things, people, circumstances.

See if you can suspend judgment for about seven days. That’s it. You don’t have to do a month. You don’t have to do a year. Just see if you can let go of the judgments that your mind is creating, for seven days and see how you feel afterwards. If it significantly improves your emotional well-being, awesome! Continue doing it.

And if it doesn’t, that’s completely okay, and you can find another modality that might work for you. But at the very least, try it and see what happens. And it is only through our own lived experience that you know what truth is, rather than just taking someone’s word for it. So, that’s what I would encourage everyone to do, and just see for yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Joseph Nguyen
One of my favorite quotes is actually in the book, which is from Jonathan Safran Foer, which is, “I think, I think, I think. I’ve thought myself out of happiness one million times, but never once into it.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, very good. Very good. Thank you. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Joseph Nguyen
The neuroscience study that I was alluding to before, I don’t know exactly what experiment it was.

But they were studying about how long it takes for our emotions to actually pass through our systems, and it was about 90 seconds, which was mind-boggling to me because I thought it would take, you know, like multiple minutes or at least like, I don’t know, 10 minutes, for like, if you’re angry of something, like it feels like it takes way longer than 90 seconds.

So, that was a profound shift in me to realize that, “Oh, my gosh, like it is possible to let go of a lot of these emotions quite quickly.” And it’s actually important to follow this. You don’t have to follow this process, specifically, but you can follow any process, but it’s really important to do it in real time as you’re going about your day.

So, this process is, if you’re experiencing something in traffic, or your boss says something, or your parents say something, or your friends says something that creates a negative emotional reaction within you, it’s important to use the process then rather than only use it in the morning or in the evening like meditating, right?

That way you are actually strengthening your emotional resiliency throughout the entire day. It’s a little bit easier to find peace when you’re alone in your room and it’s dark, your blindfolds are on, there’s like Zen music, right? It’s like a little bit easier to find peace there, but the true test is, “Are you able to find peace while also, like let’s say your boss is screaming at your face, or making fun of you, or your friends are doing something that you don’t really approve of, or your parents are criticizing you in front of other family members?

That’s the time that you’re truly tested for, if you’re able to find peace. And this is something that you can use during those times rather than you need to bust out like a 30-minute meditation just to find a little bit of alleviation. So, that’s one other thing I would do, too.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. And a favorite book?

Joseph Nguyen
This one’s very interesting, maybe slightly controversial, but it currently is Outwitting the Devil by Napoleon Hill.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Joseph Nguyen
I like to use this particular framework on just when I’m doing work because I have issues, a lot of times. Just like procrastinating like most people or just putting off things that I know I need to be doing. And one of the most effective things that I’ve done is to follow the SPA methodology, which is just, if I’m overwhelmed by something, just take the next smallest possible action, so SPA, and doing that.

So, if it’s, “I need to write another book,” that’s a pretty big task, pretty scary, daunting, and it’s like, “Am I able to bust out a whole book in this one session?” Now, that’s typically what the mind thinks of. But if I break it down to the smallest possible action, like, “Am I able to just open the Word document? Can I just do that?” And I’m like, “Yeah, I can definitely click on Notion and open it up. I can definitely do that.” And if I still can’t do that, “Can I just sit at the computer desk?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yes.

Joseph Nguyen
So just keep breaking it down.

Pete Mockaitis
“Sit up from the couch.”

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, sometimes it’s hard, right? Sometimes it’s really hard. And so, it’s okay if we need to break it down into those baby steps, but that works wonders for me. So, it’s like, “Can I write one sentence?” And when I write one sentence, I’m going to want to write another sentence, like I’m just going to go.

And, lo and behold, there’s like a couple dozen sentences, a couple hundred words pass, and that was way more progress than if I force myself sit down and write my book. That’s a big task. So, smallest possible action is what I like to default to when I am frozen in procrastination or analysis paralysis.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, you hear it quoted back to you often?

Joseph Nguyen
Our emotions don’t come from external events, but from our own thinking about those events. That is something that people just didn’t really realize, and so it’s like a massive epiphany moment for them. Other ones are just like, “I didn’t realize that I could just stop judging. I had no idea I could just not listen to that incessant negative critic in the back of our minds, and that I could just be and just be present. I don’t have to be thinking about something else or doing something else. I can let go of whatever that incessant chatter is, and to finally find a little bit of peace.”

Yeah, that big epiphany was like, oh, yeah, during the times that we are happiest, like we’re not really thinking about anything else, or ruminating on anything. We’re just there, fully engrossed by the moment. And so, those are probably like some of the biggest nuggets that people have gotten.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to get in touch or learn more, where would you point them?

Joseph Nguyen
Probably, I would say my website and newsletter, so JosephNguyen.org, J-O-S-E-P-H N-G-U-Y-E-N.org. You’ll be able to find like my newsletter there, sign up for it. I do have a YouTube channel. I don’t post that often but a lot of the content there is evergreen. All my socials are just itsjosephnguyen, I-T-S and then Joseph Nguyen. Those are probably the best places to find me, but email is where you’ll be able to be up-to-date on any new projects I’m working on.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Joseph Nguyen
Let go of the fear of being judged. The more that we’re afraid of being ourselves, to be awesome at our jobs, the less effective we’ll be. And sometimes being ourselves will ruffle a few feathers. People will judge us one way or the other, even if we’re playing conservatively and not really showing that much at work.

People are still judging us anyway. So, we might as well be judged and criticized for being who we truly are rather than masquerading ourselves behind something else. And the more that you’re able to be yourself, the more awesome you’re going to be at your job, the more that you’re able to lean into your own gifts, your own talents, your abilities. All of that is usually held back if we’re afraid of what other people are thinking.

So, stand up for yourself, do what you believe is best for the work that you’re doing, and definitely defend it, and to not just let it be pushed over. Because at the end of the day, if you’re coming from a place of love, generosity, true selflessness, and wanting to do the best that you possibly can, there’s no shame in that at all. So, if you’re going to be criticized, definitely be criticized for doing what you believe is right, rather than hiding behind and playing it small.

Pete Mockaitis
Joseph, beautiful. Thank you.

Joseph Nguyen
Thank you so much, Pete. It’s been such a pleasure and so much fun with you. I love your energy.

Mar 27
0

1044: Becoming the Boss that Everyone Wants to Work For with Sabina Nawaz

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Sabina Nawaz shows you how to cope with the pressures that come with leadership.

You’ll Learn

  1. The perils of getting promoted
  2. Why asking for feedback isn’t enough
  3. The power of shutting up

About Sabina

Sabina Nawaz is an elite executive coach who advises C-level executives and teams at Fortune 500 corporations, government agencies, nonprofits, and academic institutions around the world. During her fourteen-year tenure at Microsoft, she went from managing software development teams to leading the company’s executive development and succession planning efforts for over 11,000 managers and nearly a thousand executives.  She is the author of YOU’RE THE BOSS: Become the Manager You Want to Be (and Others Need).

 

Resources Mentioned

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Sabina Nawaz Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Sabina, welcome!

Sabina Nawaz
Thanks so much, Pete. Looking forward to this.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited. You have studied managers up close and personal and in the trenches with them. Could you start us off by sharing one of the most particularly surprising and fascinating and counterintuitive discoveries you’ve made about us humans and managing from all your years at work here?

Sabina Nawaz
So, this book is not about how to become successful. It’s how to remain successful, and it’s about not all the things that people know, but what do they not know, as you said, counterintuitive stuff. Three of those.

One, being promoted is the riskiest time in your career. It is not power that corrupts, but pressure that corrupts. Pressure changes, not only stresses you out, but changes your actions. And power then blinds you to the impact of those actions. So, the higher you go, the less you know about the impact your actions are having on other people.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, those are big, and those are heavy. Well, I’m excited to dig into all of these promptly. But maybe, first, before we do, can you maybe just orient us to what’s the big idea or main message behind the book, You Are the Boss?

Sabina Nawaz
The main message is that pressure and power can be used for good or for harm. It’s your choice. And the choice comes from not needing to get a personality transplant, or to go on retreats for weeks on end, or to study emotional intelligence for the rest of your life, which I would still recommend you do, but by making a choice to use some simple tools and strategies to tackle the combined effect of the diabolical twins of power and pressure. The higher you go, the more important this becomes.

Pete Mockaitis
Diabolical twins. Okay. We’re sounding the alarm. We’re raising the flag. Okay. Well, so maybe could you share with us a story of the destructive potential that might be lurking for us that we’re not even aware of? So how about you give us a twin tale? Let’s hear a tale of surprised destruction, and a tale of disaster averted through prudent preparation.

Sabina Nawaz
Well, I’ll start with my own tale, because I tell a lot of tales in the book about a number of my clients, and I am not immune from this. I was a lousy manager at Microsoft, but that wasn’t always true. At first, I managed software teams and most of my people said I was the best boss they ever had, I cared for them, I coached them. Those were great years. And then everything changed.

I was running Microsoft’s management development when I was about eight months pregnant. My boss left the company so I took on her job responsibilities, and on my first day, as I’m getting ready to get back to work from parental leave, my assistant Lori calls me, frantic, “Where are you? Steve’s expecting you in 30 minutes.”

She reads the memo I’m supposed to discuss with Steve Ballmer, the CEO of Microsoft, as I’m hitting warp speed on my way to the freeway. And that set the tone, Pete, for overflowing inbox, packed calendar, infant at home, no peace, no sleep, no patience. I’m sure this sounds familiar to you and to your listeners. And, in a moment, I went from being caring and compassionate to snippy and short. Still 5’3″, but now short-tempered.

In my rush to meet those deadlines, I had no time for detailed instructions or to repeat myself, and I thought I was being efficient. I also micromanaged because I was worried that my team or I would look incompetent to these high-level executives. So, I’m thinking, “I’m killing it. I’m being efficient. Look at how much we’re getting done for the senior-most people in the organization,” until my colleague, Joe, comes to me.

And I take one look at Joe and I know he’s about to give me bad news. My shoulders are tightening, and then Joe says, “Zach is crying in his office because of what you said.” And my gut falls to the floor. Joe has my full attention, not multitasking as usual, and I feel my whole body turned hot from shame, I cannot make eye contact with Joe, I feel so guilty, and I think, “How did I get here? How did I go from being caring and compassionate to this, somebody people apparently fear and really don’t like?”

So, I take a drink of water, I walked across the hallway, knocked on Zach’s door, “Will you go for a walk with me?” And a minute into the walk, I say, “Zach, I’m so sorry. There’s no excuse for how I reacted in that meeting.” And Zach’s eyes brim with tears. And it was in that moment of connection, Pete, I realized, “This is what I want, to treat people with humanity.”

But why had I started behaving badly all of a sudden? Why did I have no idea about it, the impact it was having? And why did more people not tell me? Because pressure corrupts. I wasn’t a bad person. I was a boss behaving badly. But the worst part is I had no idea because power then insulates us. So, that would be a story where things did not go well.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear you. And, Sabina, I hate to bring you into, it sounds like, a genuinely traumatic experience for you. But for the question mark lingering of curiosity for our listeners, they got to know, what did you say to Zach?

Sabina Nawaz
It wasn’t just one thing. The problem was it was a whole stream of things, which sounded like a stream of being discounted and insulted to Zach. So, he was about to bring up a new idea, and I said, “Nope.” And not only did I say it, I had my hand out there, right almost at his face, going, “We don’t have time for that,” expletive. “We need to get going. Did you not hear me the first time? We are under a really tight timeline.”

So, my voice is elevated. I’m cursing. My hand is out there in front of his face. And then another, a little later in the meeting, Zach says, “It’s okay if you say no to this idea, but can I bring it up?” And I said, “Yes.” And he brought up another new idea, and I said, “No,” right away. No, “Thank you for thinking through ideas. What made you suggest this right now?” None of that.

So, it was this very abrupt, shutting-down action that I reacted to. I stopped thinking. I certainly wasn’t leading. I wasn’t even thinking, and I’m just reacting, reacting to my circumstances and the pressure in an inexcusable fashion. And, you know, of course, as I’m sure you’re aware, when managers treat employees badly, employees then go back to their office, not just crying, but they play video games or research shows that they even deliberately sabotage results.

Pete Mockaitis
Update their LinkedIn, take a look at the opportunities out there.

Sabina Nawaz
Yes, start a secret group chat about you.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure. Yeah, and thank you for sharing that. What’s really intriguing here is that, I think we hear stories associated with bosses behaving badly in these ways. And I’m thinking about Walter Isaacson’s biography of Elon Musk, where he talks about demon mode, or, you know, tales of Steve Jobs, or any number of famous hard-charging executives. And I think what people often tend to assume is like, “Oh, that’s just their personality. That’s just their management style.”

And so, you’re posing something quite fresh, and it’s like, “Oh, no, perhaps we have a whole lot of humanity buried under there, and it’s these diabolical twins that is going to work on some of these people, and that’s why we see these behaviors manifesting.”

Sabina Nawaz
Absolutely. Absolutely. With very rare exceptions, just like there are no purely good people or purely bad people, we all have good behaviors and bad behaviors in us, there are no purely good bosses or bad bosses. It’s our reaction to the circumstances. That doesn’t mean it should take us off the hook, but it’s not inherent in our personalities.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Okay. Well, so then, by contrast, could you share with us a tale of someone who got the heads up and didn’t end up succumbing?

Sabina Nawaz
Well, I’ll share the tale of somebody who did succumb, then got the heads up, because that’s what usually happens. I come in; the feedback I’d gotten about this person was he was terrible to work with. He was a bully, people called him a thug, and much worse, words that I won’t use on your show. And we worked together.

Now, this guy, Adam, suffered from what many of my clients suffer from, where they think they’re successful because of some of these traits, not despite these. So, they become innocent saboteurs in their own fate and the fate of their organizations, and that was certainly the case for Adam. He made jokes because he thought that was encouraging people. He used sarcasm to motivate them. Of course, this was all coming across as bullying behavior.

Once he recognized that, so this is why I was saying the heads up comes after the fact often, because nobody wants to tell the person in a position of power what they think they don’t want to hear.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, especially when they’re behaving in a way that says, “I might get my head ripped off for this.”

Sabina Nawaz
Exactly. “Who in their right mind is going to do that? Not only get my head ripped off, I might lose my job.” So, you continue on thinking you’re doing just fine, because, of course, people would give you feedback. You’ve asked for the feedback, haven’t you? Asking for feedback is a waste of time when you have high authority. You’ve got to deploy some other techniques.

And so, in Adam’s case, when I interviewed a bunch of his co-workers and got this devastating feedback, he did work to turn that around. By the way, I never experienced Adam as a bully or a jerk. I experienced him as a wonderful human being, because, of course, we didn’t have that power gap in our relationship through which everything gets filtered as more dire, more directed personally at us either.

And a year later, I interviewed people again, and then people said, “Oh, I was dreading having to work for him again. He’s so much more respectful. I trust him so much more. He is a thousand percent better.” So, that was a beautiful ending to that story.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, indeed. Okay. So, well then, let’s dig into these particular truths that you shared. When we’re promoted, it’s the riskiest time in our career. Can you expand on that?

Sabina Nawaz
Well, of course, it’s also a time for celebration when you’re promoted, but once the bubbly settles, what you might realize is that the very strengths, the superpowers that have gotten you there, are now going to be seen in a very different light. So, for example, as a manager, you can say exactly the same things you said before, but now they’re going to take on a harsher light, a louder tone, a more personal note for the next that are craning up. Their views are less charitable.

Let me give you a couple of examples. Let’s say you are somebody who’s assiduous about details, how might you be seen as a manager?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, a micromanager.

Sabina Nawaz
Yes, a micromanager. Let’s say you’re really calm under pressure, how might that come across?

Pete Mockaitis
You don’t care. You’re not invested.

Sabina Nawaz
Exactly. Ooh, we could keep going back and forth like this, but you get the idea. Strategic becomes manipulative. All of these things can be seen in a whole different light. You need to start to look at your strengths not from how you see them, but how they’re going to be seen from people below. The higher you go, the more that view gets distorted, like a funhouse mirror.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And what do you recommend we do when we find ourselves in such a spot?

Sabina Nawaz
One of the first things you can do is, actually, inventory your strengths and start writing down ways in which others might describe it, and put yourself in those shoes. So, one of my direct reports, what would they say? One of my skip levels, what would they say? Somebody who’s a junior employee who reports to one of my peers? Somebody from the outside who now sees my bigger title? So, imagine those soundbites coming at you, and once you see that, you can start to temper things.

Somebody I worked with was very, very strategic, and she would take her time speaking up in meetings because she wanted to see where the thread of the conversation was going, who was speaking, who wasn’t speaking, what was the tone, what was the vibe of the meeting, and, people started thinking that she was very political instead of strategic. They said, “Oh, she’s going to go where the wind is blowing. She wants to see what people above her are saying,” and so on.

Once she recognized that piece of feedback, she went back to her team to explain to them what she was doing, “This is why I’m doing what I’m doing. I have a rule. I don’t speak up right away. And then let me show you, let me demonstrate to you how that has benefited. For example, I was going to go to this meeting and I went in with this particular point of view, but it wasn’t until I heard the third person speaking that I realized this point of view is actually incorrect and it’s going to antagonize, unintentionally, three people in that meeting. Wasn’t it better not to speak up first in that particular case?”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s handy. Okay. Well, so it sounds like the master keys there are just let’s get a sense of what is the perception and then let’s provide some context, some explanation. It’s funny, that takes humility on both sides of that there.

First, to put yourself in a position where you’re willing to hear it, and then, secondly, to explain it. Because you might say, if you were less humble, “I’m the boss. I don’t have to explain myself to these folks.” And yet, it seems that, in order to be a great manager, maybe you very well do, in fact, need to.

Sabina Nawaz
Absolutely. Absolutely. And if you’re a manager who has a “yeah, but” raging at the moment, saying, “Yeah, but I don’t have time to do it,” think about how much time you spend undoing things and that it would take a fraction of the time to do it instead.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And you said simply asking for feedback doesn’t work. What’s the means by which we get to the truth?

Sabina Nawaz
Yes, this is really tough because here you have a boss who has no idea how they’re coming across, and an employee who’s not willing to tell you because of the fear that they have across this power gap. So, simply saying, “Hey, would you give me feedback when you notice something?” employees are going to say, “Yes, boss,” and all they’re going to give you is very mild stuff, cushioned in praise.

So, when they tell you everything is fine, what they’re actually meaning is, “Oh, what an ass.” So, you have no idea. So, first of all, any feedback you get, you might want to add a couple of numbers to it to upgrade the severity of what they’re saying. But here’s the other thing, you can actually ask more specific questions, because the quality of feedback you receive is directly proportional to the quality of the question you ask.

If you simply say, “How did I do in that presentation or that meeting?” people are going to say, “You were fantastic. In fact, you should get on the TED stage next week,” because that is not asking for feedback. That is simply asking for reassurance. Instead, if you said, “On a scale of 1 to 10, where was I?” Let’s say they say 8, which you know is going to actually mean a 6 or a 5.

Then you can say, “What would it take, what’s one thing I could do to get to a 9, to get to a plus 1? What’s one thing I did that worked well? What’s one thing I can do to get to a plus 1?” Don’t ask for too much feedback. If you cut it down to one thing, people are more likely to be able to give you something, and you’re more likely to be able to act on it.

One other way to ask for feedback is to externalize the ask. So, instead of saying, “Pete, what’s one thing I could do better at on this podcast?” I might say, “Pete, if you were to channel your most skeptical, your crustiest listener, what would they say about the one thing I could do better?” Now, Pete is freed up, it doesn’t impact our relationship. In fact, it looks like Pete is working for me by channeling some of his listeners.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I like that a lot, especially when you’re the one asking for the feedback and you suggest the third-party voice. That seems like a real powerful combo. And I’m reminded of, well, some interviewers, I think John Stossel, in particular. He’s just always devil’s advocating, John Stossel. It’s like, “Well, some might say that this is just a means of bringing costs down, and that’s necessary.” He even has the voice, you know, which just cracks me up.

And so, it almost feels a little bit less than courageous when he says, “Hey, I’m not saying it, but it’s some third party,” which, at the same time, as an interviewer, can make your interviewee feel more comfortable, and so, you know, it works. But it’s even better to invite them to think about that third party.

Sabina Nawaz
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very good. Well, so then, in terms of, like, the asking, is this sort of in person, via survey, email, all of the above? What’s the mechanism of collection that you favor?

Sabina Nawaz
All of the above is great. I favor direct conversation, in-person or virtual, of course, these days, especially, but somewhere where we are making eye contact, looking at each other and having a live conversation because you can start to read the cues of the person who’s providing you with that feedback as well, and you can tone it down a little bit more.

You can make sure you’re conveying nonverbal feedback at all times, because they’re, of course, hyper-aware of any twitch that’s going on on your face, because they’re going to go, “Oh, my gosh, I’m fired.” So, it allows for more information to be exchanged as you’re doing this process. It also shows that you truly care. You’re willing to invest live time for it as opposed to a survey.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, okay. Well, thank you. Well, now let’s dig into a little bit the second thing you dropped there with regard to it’s not the power but the pressure that corrupts. Can you expand on that?

Sabina Nawaz
It’s just like when I had all that pressure in that job and I started acting out. So, by corrupting, I mean your behaviors change. Your behaviors change in a way that impact other people adversely. You raise your voice. You have a tone to your voice. You provide harsher criticism than necessary. You cut people off. You interrupt them. All of those things show up when you’re under pressure.

Now, of course, there’s not a single person on the planet who’s not under pressure both at work and outside of work. And I’m sure, Pete, that you have moments where you’ve been under pressure and you’ve done something you’re not proud of, and, gosh, it would be mortifying if that was caught on video and put up on YouTube or TikTok.

And so, it’s no different for bosses. The problem is that the higher we go, the more pressure we have on us, and the more likely we are that one of those is going to subvert our actions and take over.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, then when we are in that spot where we are feeling the pressure, what are the best practices to not being a jerk?

Sabina Nawaz
The first thing is to just shut up, and I have this term called your shut-up muscle. And as a manager, it becomes important to buff up your shut-up muscle. So, there’s a shut-up exercise which has many steps, but a couple of those. First of all, be, at least, the third person to speak. There’s no reason for you to jump in the minute somebody asks a question.

All you’re doing there is training everyone to become over-reliant on you and take the back seat, be lazy, or not grow, or feel disempowered on the other side. So, be the third or later to speak. That would be one way to exercise your shut-up muscle.

Another, when you’re on video calls, put yourself on mute by default. So, when you have that fast twitch desire to speak, you can speak, and people are going to go, “Oh, you’re on mute.” And by the time you unmute, you can go, “Oh, actually, that train has passed. I’m good.” It gives your brain a moment to get out of that reactive mode and get back to your senses to be more strategic, and say, “Do I really need to say this thing? Not really.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s great. The shut-up muscle, that’s really good, because sometimes, in my experience, I am quick to speak because I’m excited, it’s like, “Oh, oh, that thing that you said. Also, this!” And so, I can see what you’re saying when you compare it to a muscle, is it takes some discipline, some restraint, some strength to say, “Yes, I’m very excited. And I can share that in 90 seconds, if it still seems valuable then, and that’s okay.”

Sabina Nawaz
And that’s another key piece, if it still feels valuable then. Another tool for the shut-up muscle is to take margin notes. That is, you’ve got your notepad, and, then in the margin, write down all of your ideas that you’re so excited about, that are getting in the way of you being fully present and likely to cause you to interrupt other people.

If you wait for a while, let’s say you have five notes in your margin, three of those might be suggested by somebody else. That’s great. That means that they’re taking initiative. They’re going to start working harder than you for a change and reduce some of the pressure on you. And the two things that haven’t been said, maybe only one of them needs to be said.

Now you’re going to have a lot more impact because you’ve gotten rid of what I call a communication fault line, which is verbal overkill. If you have just one thing to share and that one thing is shared just by you, it’s not an idea other people thought about, that’s a way you can truly add value in a meeting.

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely. And can we hear about the power blinding us?

Sabina Nawaz
Well, it’s the part about “Who wants to get their head bitten off?” And also, with power comes the, well, power to take away or give things to other people that matter to them: a raise, a promotion, their very jobs. As a result, people are not going to say things to you that they think will displease you and that don’t feel safe. So, as a result, you’re cushioned by people who are saying yes all the time, cushioned by a lot of praise.

A CEO I worked with, it was the day before their CEO ship was going to get announced, and they said, “You know what, tomorrow I’m going to become the funniest person in this company,” because your jokes suddenly are funny, your ideas suddenly are brilliant. So, you get blind to what else might be going on.

Pete Mockaitis
And what shall we do in that scenario?

Sabina Nawaz
The end of the book has an assessment of 40-plus questions called “360 Yourself,” and it looks at every power gap, every kind of power gap and every kind of pressure pitfall you can fall into, and ask you a few questions to say, “Which of these do you fall into the most?” If you don’t have time, 15 minutes or so, to look at those 40 questions, think about these few.

One, you never receive pushback or different ideas once you’ve shared your idea. That might mean you’re in one of those blind power traps. People think you’re funnier, smarter, faster than you know you are. You justify all of your actions with a “yeah, but.” All of these so you can self-diagnose, “Hmm, yep, that’s happened, that’s never happened, this always happens, therefore, it must mean I’m surrounded in my own echo chamber.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, good to know. Well, Sabina, tell me, any other top do’s and don’ts you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Sabina Nawaz
Because pressure corrupts, and it’s so important to allow pressure to help you shine, like we sometimes do, you know, when we have that deadline and we’re at our most creative, we want pressure to fuel us, not eviscerate us. Our tendency when we get into pressure-full situations is to work harder, to hunker down.

So, my favorite strategy here is to employ what I call blank space, which is actually do nothing. It’s two hours a week, back-to-back, that you schedule to unplug. No reading, no online presence, no conversations. You simply sit and think. And if that’s too much for you, do it in baby steps. Start with 15 minutes or even 5 minutes or 30 seconds. We are human beings, not human doings, but we’re very uncomfortable just being.

Those clients who have taken that time to do blank space have had transformational results. They’ve transformed their companies, they’ve averted disaster from the competition, they’ve even changed their careers completely. It’s a game changer. It takes the calendar management discipline to actually take that time. And then you can do a variety of different things to make use of that time.

You could simply do nothing. You could go for a walk. You could lie in a hammock. These are all things people have done that have worked with me. You could doodle, mind map, draw pictures, whatever, because research shows that our best insights come when we switch off this very busy working part of our brain, right? We’re in the shower. We’re running. We’re commuting. Those are the times where those answers come.

So, when you’re under pressure, thinking, “I’m such a loser. When am I going to get fired? I’ve got to double down,” stop and do nothing and trust that you already know the answer. All you have to do is let the noise die down so that the signal becomes amplified.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So then, it sounds like there’s a variety of things that are acceptable during doing-nothing time, but what’s not okay is talking to other people or engaging with our digital devices.

Sabina Nawaz
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
So, you can walk, you can lie, you can sit, you can have a notebook, and then just roll with it.

Sabina Nawaz
Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. And then, in so doing, that’s when these brilliant, transformational, creative ideas just emerge. It’s during the do-nothing time, or is it after the do-nothing time? Or is it both?

Sabina Nawaz
Both. Sometimes you come back, I had somebody who had a near panic attack before his first blank-space time, like, “What do you mean? Tell me again. I’m supposed to do nothing? Nothing at all? How is that going to work?” I said, “Just trust me. Just go do it.” He came back, he’s like, “Nothing happened.” I said, “Well, you know, at least your brain was better rested.” Guess what? After three blank space states, magic started happening. So, it might take a while, or it might be instantaneous.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now can we hear about a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Sabina Nawaz
My favorite quote is from the author who wrote The Little Prince, and I cannot pronounce his name. And it says something to the effect that perfection is not when there’s nothing more to add, but when there’s nothing more to take away.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Sabina Nawaz
It would be the one I referenced earlier, which is when employees are treated badly, they deliberately sabotage results. Now think about that, Pete. That means they’re screwing themselves over just to diss the boss. And I read about this in a book by Bob Sutton called The No Asshole Rule.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, we had Bob on the show. And a favorite book?

Sabina Nawaz
I am not monogamous in favorite books, and so it shifts quite a bit. Currently, my favorite book is Martyr by Akbar Kaveh.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Sabina Nawaz
I use the Pomodoro technique often, which is setting a timer for 25 minutes and using that as focus time so I’m not monkeying around with every little distraction that comes along.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with your clients and audiences, they quote it back to you often?

Sabina Nawaz
The one they quote back is actually the shut up, shut up more, and sense more as a result. Say less, sense more. Sense more what is going on because no one else is going to tell you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their job?

Sabina Nawaz
Take one thing that you’re going to do to improve, and you already know what that is. Everybody does. In fact, you have probably a list of a dozen things. Break it down into the smallest, most ridiculously small unit and do it every day as a micro habit.

So, if you are going to be awesome at your job by being a better listener, once a day, your job would be to paraphrase somebody, or, for five minutes a day, to detach yourself from your phone, leave your phone in another room.

If you’re going to be awesome at your job through better health and well-being, instead of thinking you’re going to go to the gym for 30 minutes a day, do one push-up a day. That’s what a micro-habit is

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Sabina, thank you.

Sabina Nawaz
Thank you, Pete.