074: Building Championship Teams with Thomas Mangum

Pete Mockaitis
Thomas, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job Podcast.

Thomas Mangum
It’s absolutely a pleasure, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now you have so much expertise and interesting stuff to share with us so I wanna first hear your fun story about you being a military interrogator. Any thrilling type of 24-esque kind of adventures that you’re legally and confidentiality-wise allowed to share?

Thomas Mangum
Yeah, you knew that was the one thing that you’re not allowed to ask me today.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, well…

Thomas Mangum
You know I’m kidding!

Pete Mockaitis
You break all the rules here.

Thomas Mangum
I am completely kidding you. No, no, no, no. Oh my gosh! Do you really wanna hear a story?

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely! It’s exciting!

Thomas Mangum
I’ll tell you this part of the story. I have to be careful when I do an introduction, when I’m working with a group, and I usually wait later on into the training when we’ve done other introductions, before I said “Hey, you know and I used to be an interrogator in the military” because the whole audience gets really quiet. It is an introduction killer, it’s an energy killer, when they find out.
Now, friends, our one-on-one conversations are, they’re always like “oh that’s so cool! Tell me!” And then you know the first question, the question that always comes up, “So, I really wanna know the answer to this question. Did you ever waterboard?”
And I, you know, it’s so strange to me because that’s what people think interrogators do. And it is part of my job, it’s a public service announcement that, that is not what interrogators do. No. At least I didn’t. I was never privy to that kind of thing. And so, if anything, I think some of the best interrogators are real people people.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay

Thomas Mangum
It’s not like you see on movies. Not like you see in movies or anything like that, I mean, you might have other people out there who might be doing all sorts of interesting techniques like waterboarding.
Interrogators, psychological operations people, we’re “head doctors.” We’re “people people.” We’re intuitives. We, you know, we feel the energy in the room or read the energy in a person. We do the deception analysis, work with everything, prisoners, criminals, or just regular people, and reading them. And that’s not nearly as nefarious and evil as movies make us out to be.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Thomas Mangum
‘Cause it could be for good.

Pete Mockaitis
Public service announcement accomplished, thank you!
So I can imagine in a team building environment, ‘cause like you’re the team builder, and then the, you tell them this like, “uh oh, he is going to pull things out of me that are going to be very problematic.”

Thomas Mangum
I do it for good, not for evil. I do it, and that is part of the joke. Sometimes, what I’ll just say is “Okay, so you know, in the military they’d be for different reasons but for you it’s, if I wanna pull anything out of you, I’ll pull the right best out of you, what’s really possible for you. What your natural talents are, unique abilities.”
And then it loosens them up and, you know, if they have any kind of preconceived notions or ideas about what I’m might be doing, “Oh okay, that’s good. As long as it’s  good.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, well cool. So, that, the stage is set and so, I wanna hear a little bit, you know, when you talk about team building, I think that maybe many folks don’t even have a  great view or perspective on what an outstanding team even looks like.
So I mean, you know, you’ve seen teams of all shapes and sizes from big companies and small companies that are probably toxic to outstanding, so could you maybe just orient us a little bit. Paint a picture for, what does an amazing team look like, what does a normal team look like, and what does a sort of a poor or underperforming team look like, just so we could maybe see ourselves in the story.

Thomas Mangum
Well, here’s one place I want you to start, anyone listening to start is, I want you to picture, it could be your favorite sports team, it may be a perception you have of a finely tuned military team, elite team. So it can be sports, military, corporate, anything, anything like that. I want you to get a picture of well, what are those teams doing? Because, everyone has a slightly different view of what a high performing championship team is.
And that’s just something I work with executives on, because would invite me in and say “We wanna create a championship team. I want my team to move from good to great. I want them to be extraordinary, high performing.” And I would just have to go back to “What’s your definition of that?” And they go, “Well, it doesn’t matter what my definition is.”
And I’m you know, I’m taking a few liberties being a little dramatic with that, doesn’t happen every time. But generally speaking, it does! Because they think it’s like this one thing. And every team is slightly different. Well, what is your vision for an amazing, high-performing team? And we start breaking it down and starting there.
And it may be they’re starting from a basketball team, maybe they’re a real sports fan. And they’re like “Man, I really love such and such basketball team.” Or “I’m a real hockey fan, and I just think they do something really amazing. But you know, I’ve got a corporate team, and I don’t have a hockey team, so you know, there’s no parallels.” And I’d said, ”Yeah, there is! There’s a lot of parallels.”
So one thing that I have seen with the high-performing championship teams is, there are a lot of common elements. Doesn’t matter what we’re talking about, again doesn’t matter we’re talking about military, sports, or corporate teams, there’s a lot of overlap. People, these team members are in it to win it. They got each other’s back, they have gone through tough times. And it’s almost critical, you gotta go through tough times.
And you may not have bullets whizzing past your head like in elite military team, but corporate teams, well, it could be they’re just fighting off a layoff, anything like that. Or you know, or something they’ve lost, or even gutted with the talent they have on their team. But they have definitely overcome challenges which brings them together.
Because as you know, Pete, if you go through any kind of challenges, even personal in your life, if you go through any kind of challenges, and you share that with another person, it could be your spouse, loved one, maybe with the team, you’re forever changed. It’s memorable. You realize it’s like “man, we’re still living, we’re still breathing, we overcame something” and it bonds you. There’s a trust that’s built, that you can’t fake it, that you can’t teach. You’ve got to go through struggles.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and I like, that’s really clicking for me in terms of, I’m thinking of, of intense experiences, of even training. Maybe it’s like, you know, The Bain Associate Consultant Training. Just like, a crazy number of hours with like, Excel, and PowerPoint, and partying, and it’s like we are galvanized, we’re bonded.
Or, I went to this School of Supernatural Ministry for three weeks, and so just a whole lot of sort of spiritual stuff in terms of you know, prayer and outreach and all that stuff. And so it’s like we too are bonded because it pushed us past a level that we were kind of accustomed to and comfortable with, and it was kind of like “whoah, we’re really getting stretched here sort of, it’s sort of uncomfortable.”
It’s a tough time not so much that it’s adversity but it’s like, it’s a little I dunno, spooky or challenging or stretching in an intense way.

Thomas Mangum
Did you get vulnerable?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah

Thomas Mangum
And that’s why I always challenge people, it’s like, you don’t, for some it is bullets whizzing past their head, for others it’s they’re coming up on the Super Bowl. And now here you got two championship football teams.
And it is about, “Okay, what happens? Did we fall on our face in front of this other team? And do we suffer the humiliation?” Well, that’s an emotional stretch. That’s a mental stretch to get past that you’re forever bonded. It shifts you. Is it, what you just said is like, maybe a spiritual or some other kind of emotional intelligence type of training where you get so incredibly vulnerable about trauma in your childhood.
Or you know, you’re channelling something in front of a group and something weird, well you think it’s weird that comes out but the audience is like “whoah! That was so brave, it was so courageous.” You know, and no one throws rocks at you, nobody hated you but moments of vulnerability are also overcoming training. When people witness that and you do it with another group. So, just an idea.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so I like that. So you laid out three things, and I love three things. I can really get my arms around that, so.
They’re in it to win it, as in each individual actually genuinely cares about the performance, the outcomes that that group is generating as opposed to, you know, they’re punching a time-clock, they’re still a ways, they’re just kind of going through the motions of their role and job description. So that’s kind of the first thing that you say. They’re in it to win it. Any expansion on that?

Thomas Mangum
Yeah. I mean, you know, I’m very clear about that one, when I, I mean I’d, man I remember, I’m thinking of a, an executive at a sliding door company and another executive at enterprise rent-a-car. I’ve, I always get the questions of like “Hey, this is going on with my team, how do I get all, you know, how do I create a championship team when I’ve got such and such people on my team?” And I’m like, “You know what, there’s no short cut to this, you gotta be in it to win it.” “Yeah, but not all my team members are in it to win it.” “It’s like, okay, let’s go back to square A, we need to get them on the team, or perhaps, this is not a fit for them.”
And I’ll tell you right now, Pete, that is a little too direct and upfront for some people. And I think they want a more challenging answer or they want a softer answer, and, and frankly, I think we gotta start cutting it short, we gotta be more concise. Like if any championship team I’ve ever seen. I mean, let’s use as example a Super Bowl team for instance. Can you imagine, if all those team members on the Super Bowl winning team, are there looking, they’re going to Super Bowl, and can you imagine if all those team members are not in it to win it? “Yeah, I’m gonna give it my best shot.”

Pete Mockaitis
“Let see what happens”

Thomas Mangum
No! Yeah, “we’ll see what happens” and how insane could that be. And I’m, I know I’m getting kind of dramatic, that’s true. Very animated. And it’s like, but I’m also, it’s real. And it’s like, can you imagine? And so, how could you expect to create a championship high-performing corporate team if you think it’s ludacris, if you’re a military or sports team, but as if there’s different rules in corporate America. Sorry, Charlie, you still get to have emotionally intelligent team members. You still have a choice as a leader to have people on that team that are in it to win it. They are all in.
That doesn’t mean they’re sacrificing personal lives or personal agendas. No! It just means that check, they’re honest about it. You know, “Hey listen, I have personal agendas, but guys, don’t make any mistake about this, I am in it to win it with you.” You know, I mean.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s cool, that’s cool. I see that distinction right there, it’s clear and I guess it’s, this is probably another multi-hour conversation, but any kind of pro-tips. Or if you got some colleagues, some collaborators who are not quite in it to win it, how does one contribute to lighting the fire?

Thomas Mangum
I love it

Pete Mockaitis
If that can be done.

Thomas Mangum
That’s a good question. Because it’s a very practical question, very fundamental question of “okay, that’s nice” ideal world and that kind of thing. And you know, we definitely wanna spend, invest the time I should say, not spend the time but invest the time in, Okay, as a team, do we have a very clear vision of where we’re going? Can we get a buy-in or an alignment from our team. And if there are team members that perhaps aren’t completely on-board, then you, we must create a culture as a leader.
If I’m a leader of a team, then I get to be very open and vulnerable and whatever and intimate with my team to show them a model of what’s possible with this team. Say, “Hey, listen. You know, we’re not all on-board, I get that. What would bring you on-board? Can we come to a place we’re aligned so that we’re not distracted and we’re not bleeding off energy from this vision or this goal that we’re working on together?”
A lot of this, Pete, is emotional intelligence and emotional maturity. This might be a new term, I suspect it is not a new term for your listeners but it’s what I’ve seen in really great teams. You gotta get really, really good about having these quote “tough or hard” unquote conversations.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah

Thomas Mangum
It is like, “What’s going on with you? What’s, we love you, we care about you, in fact, I love you” And I’m saying the “love” word, you gotta add your own definition, I mean “I care about you.”

Pete Mockaitis
You want their well-being and flourishing.

Thomas Mangum
Yeah, absolutely. Yes, “I love you so much that I’m gonna, you know, have the conversation with you, what’s going on? What’s going on with you, Maria?” I mean, you know, “Absolutely, I want you on this team and you know, I want you all on this team. What’s distracting you? What’s going on?” “Well, I’m just scared. I just don’t, I don’t, I’m not buying into what you guys are buying into.” “Well, great! That’s awesome! Please let us know your objections. What do you think? Like I wanna know your hopes, and fears, and dreams. I wanna know what your struggles and challenges are.”
Any great team is gonna take or gonna invest that time to explore that. So truly explore, give them some space. In fact that’s, I think that’s one of the, one of the things of, it’s a commonality. It’s a commonality. When I look at Fortune 100 teams, I mean, corporate teams and really amazing teams, they create the space to have those conversations.
I don’t mean they take all the time in the world to have therapy around that person. But I guarantee you this, Pete, is that they absolutely invest the time into letting that person be heard. Not just share a few words and then, them roll their eyes but they’re like “Listen,” I’m just naming Maria here, you know, “and we give Maria some space because that’s the culture that we’ve created here, is that we genuinely care about Maria.”
Now, it’s not a foregone conclusion that we’re going to convince or otherwise keep Maria on this team, but we want to have her come to the place of “are you in or are you out?” That may sound harsh but we’ve already gone through a process of giving her a room to air you know, what she’s feeling. “What’s going on? Can we create a space where she’s included in this or not?”
And I’m talking about on the far end of championship high-performing team.
There’s, every, there’s a team from the top, top, top percent team, high-performing you know, like that’s that you know, Delta Force or Navy Seal or Super Bowl teams, stuff like that. All the way to you know, barely functional dysfunctional teams, I should say.
It’s not as if it’s a wrong answer, it’s not a wrong answer. I know what I’m working with teams like us when I’m giving you this information, I’m sharing this with you, please don’t think that you start right now and you’re giving ultimatums to your team members. But you as a team, you as a corporate team, get to decide how tight you call this team. What is the, you know, how do you define a high-performing team? You could determine where the line is. How far do you go? How tight do you call this?
In engineering, if you think about it, the difference between some really slow clunky car and a high-performing race car, you can imagine the tolerances. Mechanical and engineering tolerances are very tight, when you go with the race cars. I mean there’s different tolerances, right? And so, as a friend of mine like to say, he goes “Hey, how, you know, how tight do you call the team?” And he was always thinking you know, it’s like a race car, you know of what’s, of what’s to fail and what’s “Hey, you can’t be a part of this race car because you don’t fit that tolerance, but you’re perfectly fine being some other model of vehicle.” Same thing..

Pete Mockaitis
Now I think that’s, that’s really cool in the sense of, it’s like, we’re just gonna get real here in terms of “Alright guys, you know, is it okay to be okay? Do you know?” It’s like we are, I don’t wanna trash any particular type of profession but it’s like “Hey, you know, we are the Compliance Department, and by golly, what needs to happen is that our company is compliant. And so that’s kind of the level of excellence we’re gonna, we’ll shoot for. We don’t need the kind of you know, anticipate new risky things to happen and in different geographies. We’re just gonna make sure that everyone’s following the rules and that’s kind of our standard and what we’re okay with and we’re going to be, have it tight in the sense that we’re gonna be as vulnerable and open and honest and forward with one another as we gotta be to achieve that standard of excellence, and we’re all cool with that.”

Thomas Mangum
Yeah. You’re on it.

Pete Mockaitis
Or versus “By golly, we are in a super competitive, radio frequency, engineering space, you know, you got a rising AT&T,  T-Mobile, the other guys it’s like, it’s life or death, how amazing your network is, and so we’re gonna, we’re gonna push it to the limit. And so, that’s what it takes, are you on-board with that?” Oh that’s so cool. That’s so cool. So, in it to win it..

Thomas Mangum
You know…

Pete Mockaitis
Go ahead

Thomas Mangum
Yeah, you know, I want to add, I just flew in from Dallas, yesterday I was working with Southwest Airlines, which is just, personally, being a travel geek, and a travel hacker, just totally a personal thing, I was in nerd-vana. I mean, it was like, “are you kidding me? This is so cool!” That Southwest Airlines is a client of mine. And I mean, I was almost outside of myself. They were probably wondering like “What is up with him? He’s like a little kid.” And I’m like “Yeah, I’m like a little kid! I’m at Southwest Airlines!”
And it’s weird because I’ve worked at Microsoft and Sony and all these other companies, and don’t tell them I said this, I’m sure this isn’t public, is that “Southwest! Come on man!” And you know, I was thinking about something like Southwest which a lot of companies like “Man, what is Southwest doing? What is Google doing? What is Microsoft doing?”
I mean, I’ve worked with these other teams in corporate America and this is part of our conversations like “Yeah, what are they doing?” I’m like “I’m sharing you, sharing with you exactly what these teams are doing. They actually applied the things that I’m sharing with you. It’s not proprietary information.”
Pete, it’s  not proprietary information. They genuinely, it’s not just words on a piece of paper. Their core values. Their mission. Their vision. Cultivating a culture of giving and receiving clear, authentic, feedback. It’s not just words on a piece of paper. They back it up. If you were to walk with me, Pete, around this building at Southwest yesterday, you would genuinely feel “Wow! This place is about love!” I mean there’s this warmth, people are just warm “Hi! How are you? How’re doing?” They didn’t know who I was.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah

Thomas Mangum
I’m just, another person in the building. And you see all of this like “Wow! Does this happen all the time?” Yes! I mean, I have goosebumps right now. Because it is, it’s so nice a company that they live with those values. Now, do they have breakdowns? You’re damn right, brother. They absolutely have breakdowns like anyone else. But if there, it’s not words on a paper. They have a code of honor by which they live as a team. And, and it’s non-negotiable, really.
It’s not you know, a lot you know, you probably worked a lot of teams. I know you do, I mean, that’s really why I’m honored to even have this conversation. You have some, oh come on. Don’t even start. I mean, you’re a peer. You’re a peer.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s true. I have, I’m honored, thank you, it’s true. I have worked with many teams.

Thomas Mangum
Yeah, and you see this, it’s that, we train them, we pass on really amazing information about really great teams. And they’re like “Wow! That’s really interesting.” And then sometimes, it just becomes an intellectual pursuit versus actual, the actual application of doing what great teams are doing. “Hey, tell me what great teams are doing.” “Here’s what great teams are doing.” “Yeah, but…” And I’m like “There is no ‘yeah, but.’ No, this is what they’re doing. If you wanna be a great team, do this.” “Well, we’re doing that, but we’re not getting X results.” “Well then are you doing things without ‘being’ things? Because Thomas Mangum is a ‘be, do, and have’ guy.”
I mean really, I simply look at the results, and this is something I pass to clients as well. If you’re getting X results, it’s simply based upon two other things: how you’re being and what you’re doing. Sorry, it’s a basic equation to me. I’m very direct about that.
And I get that some companies, let’s say they’re trying to model Southwest or Google or Microsoft, some of these amazing teams, let’s say they’re doing things that we’re doing things, “We’re doing things, Thomas, we’re hiring, I mean, we’re bringing, team building and in, and we’re doing this, but somehow we’re still not having the results that we wanted.” I’m like “Okay, so what’s the intentionality in the ‘being’ that’s behind it?” Because you can do stuff but not ‘be’ something.
Let me give you an example. You can be doing caring things, creating amazing programs and trainings for your people. Is there genuine ‘being’ that’s behind it? Now I know this dives off into the woo-woo maybe.
Let’s say ‘peace.’ Let’s say ‘peace’ in the workforce. Okay, peace on the team. So you’re doing things that, that create more peace, whether or not, peace on your team. Are you being peaceful while you’re doing peaceful things?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, sure.

Thomas Mangum
I mean, I know it can sound kind of trippy to some folks here, it’s a new concept sometimes, but that’s the congruent peace. Because this is a very simple equation of, if you’re not getting the results, then where’s the breakdown? “Well, we don’t have, you know, whatever, we don’t have good people,” We can make excuses all day if we’re just gonna look at the result. The result is the feedback based on what we’re doing and being. So, do we need to revise who we’re being and what we’re doing?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, I’m digging that and I’m thinking…

Thomas Mangum
That too deep?

Pete Mockaitis
No, it’s actually, I’m thinking I’m with you in terms of like, there’s team functioning and then there’s like, I guess business strategy elements, and it’s like “You might have a high, a team that’s operating well in terms of like, teamwork collaboration capacities,” But they’re sort of doing, taking the wrong strategic tract for the business. And hopefully, if the teams are pretty well though, figure that out, and surface that, and disseminate that, and start doing the right things.
So it’s kind of like self-correcting in that way. And so, so this is, this is cool. I’m excited. So I wanna make sure we hit them, even at the very beginning you laid out three principles, and, and I think it makes a world of difference in terms of zeroing in on ‘do you have these things, do you not have these things?’
So let’s talk a bit about the second one. Having each other’s back, I’m imagining the, the contrast, the other side of that spectrum is, folks who are kind of self-centered thinking about their agenda, covering their, their rear ends. How should we be thinking about the “have each other’s back” point?

Thomas Mangum
Well, you know, if I’m hearing this question correctly and, get me back on track if I misinterpret, is I think every individual, I’m a big believer of emotional intelligence, right, for every single leader and team member out, every human being. I mean, life  would be so much easier if we didn’t take things so personally.

Pete Mockaitis
Word

Thomas Mangum
Everything is personal, but I mean, making everything mean something, making everything mean something that doesn’t even mean. I mean, that’s just feedback. Like if you give me feedback, “Hey, Thomas, you know, I really prefer you doing this and that,” it’s just your preference, man. I’m good with that. That’s feedback. It’s not like “Oh, is he trying to be mean to me? Oh my gosh, and what do I really thinks?” And I’m like, what if it’s just what he said? I’m gonna take it at face value. It’s like “no, I mean, I think Pete cares about me so much that he’s willing to give me direct feedback.” And so it kind of comes back around back, okay so willing to have each other’s back.
We  gotta get clear on that. I think every individual gets to be asked that and we must create a culture where we’re honest with the answers that we give, as many teams that I’ve worked with. And they go through the motions of ”Hey, is everyone aligned to this? Is every, you know, are you willing to do whatever it takes to support this initiative on the team?” And once again, “Yeah, yeah, absolutely!” “Okay, I’m wanna take you at your word and then, we’ll see. And I don’t mean I’m being doubting, I’m just saying is that the result will prove were we our word with each other or not.”
And so it takes a little practice. Same thing in the military. You know, “I got your back, man, we go into war, I got your back.” Now, do I really know that you got my back? Not really.

Pete Mockaitis
We’ll see.

Thomas Mangum
We’ll see, right? I mean, it’s not me being the sceptical side, I wanna say, I’m a very glass-half-full kind of guy, like, I’m gonna trust you, and, and, you know, that you got my back, and then the results will give us that proof, really. And so we gotta get out there and do some trials. Let’s do a project together, let’s do this, let’s do this, let’s do this. And, and then get that kind of feedback, and the feedback being results that we’re getting, well, whether someone truly has my back.
Now, that brings us back around. How do I know whether someone has got my back? Well, it will be normal not to trust everyone a hundred percent, but if I was a leader of a team, I’ve gotta, to breathe, to cultivate trust to this team by being trusting. So if you’re on my team, Pete, and I say “Hey, do you have my back? ‘Cause I have yours.” And we say “yes,” I’m gonna take, I’m gonna take you at your word. I mean…

Pete Mockaitis
Right

Thomas Mangum
We’ve got to. And then gotta see what happens and then we, you know, we course correct as we know.

Pete Mockaitis
And if there’s a breakdown, like, “Hey, what happened in that meeting?” You’re able to go there and have that correction conversation.

Thomas Mangum
Yeah, I mean, leaders do breakdown. Right? I mean, and, and here’s the cool thing. Embrace the breakthrough. I’d even teach at the Leadership Academy in San Diego, and I worked with a lot of high performing leaders, and they’re very emotionally intelligent and that’s part of the training around being a really amazing leader.
And like I was just telling one of the folks I’ve worked with, I was telling her, I said “Listen, you know, sometimes you say that you’re scared of breaking down. And what would be possible in your life, which truly available in your life if you were looking forward to breakdowns?” And she said, “Why? Why would I ever look forward to breakdowns? As a leader, I mean, that’s embarrassing, humiliating, whatever.” And I said, “Well, because whatever, what happens after every breakdown?” And she goes, “Well, I mean, I shift and I breakthrough.” I’m like, “There you go.”
There’s no shortcut.  It’s impossible. I can’t, you can’t have a breakthrough without having a breakdown. So look forward to a stretched comfort zone and having breakdowns.
Now let’s bring that back around to corporate America and working on a corporate team.  What does that look like in a very tangible way? Well, what if, if I was a leader of a team, I’d wanna cultivate a culture of practical risk-taking. Allow my folks to truly make, take risks and make mistakes. Now that’s gonna look different in every, every business. Right. It depends on what the level of too much of a risk is, and whatever. Like, how can you expect to grow as a team and team members grow if you are not taking risks and breaking down?

Pete Mockaitis
Preach. I’m with you. I, that’s, it makes a lot of sense and, and it’s kind of invigorating in the sense that it’s like. When I, for example, see that maybe I have a virus on my computer. I don’t go “Oh no! Uh-oh.” I go, “Excellent. This thing is about to get cleaned and it’s about to get a lot faster up in my MacBook Pro” and that excites me. And so…

Thomas Mangum
Hilarious. I love it.

Pete Mockaitis
And so that’s how I saw, so it’s similar like, as opposed to, I think we also have a lot of like, you know, anxiety or interpretation like “Oh I hope I don’t screw this up. Aaah.” We’re just like “Oh, well if I screw it up, then it’s a breakdown, there’s gonna be a breakthrough inside of it, so I can be as excited about that prospect as I am for “Oh goody, we found a virus a.k.a. an opportunity for improved computer performance.” I’m excited, thank you.

Thomas Mangum
I’m, I’m thrilled about that, I mean, you know, I got off the phone just a moment ago, before this call with an executive at a, Accenture, you know, technology consulting firm, and we’re doing the training for her in California and her specific directive was “Hey, listen, I really you know, I want my senior leaders to have transformational experience, whether comfort zone stretched and they truly, they look back on this day and they you know, they look back on the day and they go “Wow! You know, I can’t believe I actually did that. You know, look what I can do today that I didn’t think I could do before.”
And what’s fun about this is, it’s Pete, all my trainings are very engaging, tangible, we’re putting them on business simulations and doing things. It could be a very physical thing, be a physical exercise that show a team member, what they’re truly capable of. And it’s not always physical, it could be mental, emotional, whatever.
And you know, it brings you back to this point here is, it’s a way to take them out of their element, their corporate element. Now I think that’s why I’m a big believer, well I know that’s why I’m a believer in a team building of this kind of, this kind of training is because sometimes it’s tough. Because of attachments and beliefs if we just talk about the business, and how to take risks and stretch comfort zones in the context of the business.
That’s why I say “Okay, let’s take a physical exercise. Yeah, you and me right, you know, us  standing here and we’re out of the context of the business, and, but, this, we’re gonna solve a problem together. And we’re gonna learn, and taking out of the context of business so there’s no attachments and beliefs around that, and then we’re gonna break that down and debrief it so that once you do this physical, let’s say we did an acrobatic yoga move together, that stretches some comfort zones and builds some trust, then you get to go “Woah, I’m, you know, I get to see how I get to be with my team members. Or I see what I can do in business because of this, this business simulation that you just did with me.”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. That’s cool. Well, Thomas, I am pretty sure that I have way more questions than we have time to answer so, maybe a repeat visit will be required so…

Thomas Mangum
Am I in trouble?

Pete Mockaitis
No, it’s, the problem is you’re too good. That’s the problem. So, so thank you.

Thomas Mangum
You know, that’s a very polite way of saying, it’s like “You ramble on.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s funny I made, maybe we can get more succint, but I was enjoying the ramble, I was taken along for the ride in a good way. So I’m gonna ask you just maybe a couple more things before we hit the fast faves segment, and that is, tell me, day in, day out, teaming and collaborating with people, what would you say are some of the most commonly occurring great things that we should start doing all the time, and terrible things a team should stop doing right away?

Thomas Mangum
Oh man! Great things with our teams. Cultivating, it comes, listen, the culture. Culture shift. Culture shift. Culturing, cultivating a culture of, I was gonna come back to practical risk-taking. And the, that can include being, being one’s word, like being my word, that take people at their word, like don’t second guess them, take them at their word, let them break down, let them make good with their word, and then bridge trust with each other.
Create the space for connection. Ask, ask big questions, go deep questions, not that superficial BS stuff like “Hey, how you doin’? Hey, how’s the project goin’?” And I’m like, I mean, “Go deep, man! Hey, what’s really buggin’ you about the project? What are scared about? What are you scared about the project? What are you so incredibly excited about with the event that’s coming up?” Go deep! Is there, I call it emotional intelligence questions, it’s like, be the loving interruption on the team. Be a model of what, what you’ve genuinely want on your team.
And I’ll, let me, let me, let me, explain out on really, really well here is that. If I’m on a team, and I’m like “Yeah, I don’t know, I just don’t feel totally connected to my team. It’s like, be a model of possibility. What does that mean, Thomas?” “I mean, be and do to have different results with your team. So if you wish there is more vulnerability on your team, be vulnerable.” “But how do I be vulnerable?” “Ask the question you’ve always wanted to ask your boss.” “But what if I get fired?” “Everything has consequences.”
But what if? What if? You know, what if you didn’t get fired? What if they’re like “Man, Pete, what happened to you?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, or this guy…

Thomas Mangum
“Thank you for that question.”

Pete Mockaitis
…is a cut above.

Thomas Mangum
There you go.

Pete Mockaitis
I have been yearning for this level of engagement from my team members. And it has been nowhere to be found, thank you. That could happen, that could happen. Oh my gosh it’s so exciting. So, what will now, you tell me if there’s kind of one more nugget that you’d like to drop in a minute or two before we hit the fast faves, what would that nugget be?

Thomas Mangum
You know, it always goes back to the Maya Angelou quote and she’s my favorite poet, and she always says something like, it’s like, People may forget what you did, people may forget what you said, I’m kind of rephrasing of course, but they will never ever ever forget how you made them feel. It’s kind of a do-it-anyway rule of, I acknowledge anyone out there that’s being a model of what’s possible. As far as I’ve ever seen. Leadership is a lonely path. Innovators, being an innovator, a way to change your, you know, a thought leader out there, do leader, it’s a lonely path, being out front.
And, and that’s not to detract anyone, it’s like “take that road.” Ask the question you have most wanted to ask. Be the person you’ve most wanted to be, be loving and caring and trust that you know, being you will attract those that you are meant to be on a team with. Those that you’re meant to lead. Because at the end of the day, at the end of the day, Pete and Thomas and every CEO you see out there, Barack Obama, we all have hopes, dreams, struggles, challenges, fears, things that terrify us, and things that inspire us. We’re all human. The person in front of you is a human and they’re more you than different. Speak to that.

Pete Mockaitis
Hm, thank you. Thank you. So, alright, so we guess that’s a favorite quote, could you now share a favorite study or experiment or piece of research?

Thomas Mangum
I’ll tell you a book I really like. Is that close?

Pete Mockaitis
Alright, sure.

Thomas Mangum
It’s not a study. It’s kind of a study. So Ryan Levesque wrote a book called Ask. Something really brilliant about the book, just Ask, period. I’m looking at it right now, it’s a spare book. It’s, and it really was about the counterintuitive online formula, it’s about online marketing, really, but it applies so many other things.
The counterintuitive online formula to discover exactly what your customers wanna buy, create a mass of raving fans, and take any business to the next level. And here’s the takeaway. What I like about the study and the research that he did, is that, it’s like, we’ll have a discussion like “Hey, I wonder what Google is doing on their team. Oh my gosh, what are they doing that, that’s so special?” And we can have meetings upon meetings and upon meetings, and what Ryan gets to is, well, why don’t we ask?
Why don’t we ask? I mean, well, you know, I bet you, Pete, you must have gone through a phase at some point in your career, as a man, “I wonder what people really wanna hear me talk about on podcast?” Now I gotta, wonder, I wonder, you talk to your advisers, your marketing people, and all this kind of stuff, and it’s like, what about you ask your audience? “What do you guys wanna hear?” Like duh.
I mean, it’s like, that’s, the short circuit thing is, ask.

Pete Mockaitis
That very question shows up when anybody signs up for the Gold Nugget email list. So, go ahead, sign up for that and I will ask and I will respond to what listeners say. And we’ve had specific guests because of specific requests and it makes a world of difference. So, so thank you for that.
And how about a favorite tool?

Thomas Mangum
You know what, the first one that comes up is the one that annoys me, but it also keeps me organized, and that’s why I really love having a great team that’s more analytical than me and more supportive because I’m, I will admit, right now, I’m not the most organized, because I kind of channel a lot of stuff and they keep me on track. That is a tool called Asana.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright

Thomas Mangum
I really like Asana. A-S-A-N-A. And I don’t think I can live without Google Calendar either.

Pete Mockaitis
Amen. And how about a favorite habit, a personal practice of yours that’s really been transformational?

Thomas Mangum
This last year, I would have to say, meditation. I’ve been in love with Andy’s Headspace app. And that is, you know I’ve always had this head or miss relationship with meditation, or love-hate kind of thing. And as much as I live on a plane and, I mean, two, three times a week, doing timezones, meditation has been so good to my particular personality style, to give me these moments of peace anywhere I am. And so, a daily meditation even just for about a couple of quick minutes to be peaceful and be present in that moment, has completely shifted my results this year.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, now that’s brilliant, thank you. And that does keep poppin’ up with, we had, Dan, he’s on…

Thomas Mangum
Dan? Dan talked about?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, earlier, and, it has come up again with Cris Bailey, episode forty-four-ish, and earlier it’s kind of a theme so thank you for reinforcing. And how about a favorite sort of resonant nugget, something that you communicate or share that folks really seem to nod their heads, take notes, and connects with them?

Thomas Mangum
Ah, yes, every single time. Every single time, it’s a little cliché, but you know what, it, here’s the saying, you can hear it a hundred times and not get it until the hundred and first time, and that is, “Be willing…” “Be willing to be who you’ve never have been before, to do something you’ve never done before.” Be willing to do something that you’ve never done before to create results that you’ve never had before. One version of that.

Because otherwise, I mean, leave, I’ll just leave it at that, I mean if you’re not, you gotta be willing to do that because, I was coming back to something, I think it was Jim Collins, I think in Good to Great, I thought he said that, I’m gonna give him credit for it, was, is that, “What got you is the results… that are…” What he say?

Pete Mockaitis
“What got you here won’t get you there”?

Thomas Mangum
Yes.  There you go, there you go. What got you here, what got you here, will not necessarily take you there to that next place. ‘Cause an arrogance thing, of like, “I got this, I got this,” I’m like “Yeah, but what got you here may not be what gets you to that next place.” You must be willing to be someone you’ve never been or be willing to do something you’ve never done before, to create you, to create results you’ve never had before.

Pete Mockaitis
Hm, that’s so good.

Thomas Mangum
And now it always gets like, “Alright” and the “How?” Man, that was provocative.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh cool, thank you. A how about a favorite or, way to be contacted if folks wanna learn more and check you out and see what you’re up to? Where should they go?

Thomas Mangum
I like that, a favorite way to be contacted.

Pete Mockaitis
Some people love email, some people not so much, they have too much email. What’s your style?

Thomas Mangum
Well, I used to be big on Twitter, and I really like that tool but I, will admit, I have not been very good with that lately, it’s kind of an easy thing. But I think all the connection is over it, ConnectwithThomas.com and then it’s fine whether be LinkedIn or Facebook or Twitter. Twitter’s kind of cool to go back and forth on.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool

Thomas Mangum
I like that.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite challenge or call to action to leave folks with who want to be more awesome at their jobs?

Thomas Mangum
Well, that was part of that wisdom. Ask the question. Be present that your ways, that you have the wisdom that you need. If you have a question that’s percolating, you really wanna ask that team member, or something that seems out of wack with that other team member, ask. Speak into it. As a coach of mine like say, she used to say, “speak into it.” Speak about what you feel as an elephant in the room. And do it in a very gentle and caring way and watch what you unlock in your team members because they, they feel seen. Like, what is that person’s like “Hah, whoah, so you can tell that I’m not in a good mood today?” And I’m like “I dunno, just something seems off, as if there’s something I can support you on or, you know, what’s up?” And that’s a very caring way to be that can unlock all sorts of different possibilities.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, beautiful. Thomas, this has been so good, there’s so many follow-ups, I would love to do a round two sometimes in some months from now if you’re open to it because I love the way you work it, I’m resonating with your stuff and I wish you tons of luck so that more and more teams get transformed by what you’re offering here.

Thomas Mangum
Pete, I love you man. You are, I’m a big fan, you are so much fun, I love the playfulness and the way that you, that we kind of feed off each other, I enjoyed this process, so I would, I would love any other opportunity to play and explore.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. Well, until then, thanks so much.

Thomas Mangum
My pleasure.