Presence Archives - Page 7 of 53 - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Chuck, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Chuck Wisner
Oh, it’s great to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to get into your wisdom, hearing some tidbits you’ve collected in your book, The Art of Conscious Conversations: Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact. But first, I need to hear about you and rock and roll. What’s the story here?

Chuck Wisner
Oh, boy. Well, when I was very young, I think I was very fidgety and probably a bit of ADD, and my mother took me to school when I was seven, and said, “This boy needs drum lessons,” because I was always (finger drum sound) sitting around doing that sort of thing. So, literally, I was trained professionally, classically, as a percussionist from seven years old.

And then I played all through high school. I was in jazz bands, rock and roll bands. I ended up being in the Air Force National Guard Band because I played timpani, and so that was my first career. And to this day, I still play in a rock and roll band, maybe better categorized as a garage band but four or five of us have been playing together for over 30 years, so we have a great, great time together.

Pete Mockaitis
That is impressive. I’m curious, with this rock and roll band or garage band, any noteworthy performances or encounters you had in your gigs and such?

Chuck Wisner
Well, I had fun when I was a lot younger when I was 18, 19 because the rock and roll band I was in, we cut records and we were on national TV, some small little thing in Ohio. But now, the fun that we have is once or twice a year, we invite hundreds of our best friends and we just have a big dance party.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s awesome.

Chuck Wisner
Yeah. So, that’s how we do it now.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s fun. That’s fun.

Chuck Wisner
Yeah, fun.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now I’m curious to hear your book, The Art of Conscious Conversations. Boy, you talked to a lot of people about this sort of thing and collected a lot of wisdom. I’m curious, any particularly surprising, or extra-fascinating, or counterintuitive discoveries you’ve made about us humans and conversation and being conscious over your years?

Chuck Wisner
Well, there are several important facets that show up everywhere, whether I’m with a family, a couple, a leadership, a team. And the biggest one that often pops up – there’s two – one is authority issues, and we live in hierarchies, whether we like it or not, families have a hierarchy which is just natural hierarchy, and business has a sort of man-structured, man-made hierarchy, and the issues of power just resonate in every conversation from leadership to parenting. And so, that is something we have to pay special attention to.

And the other piece is that we grow up adopting standards. Now standards is a catchall phrase to mean our morals, what’s right or wrong, what we like, what we don’t like, what’s good, what’s bad, what’s fair, what’s unfair, but we grow up adopting standards from our families and our cultures, and believe that they are the truth, or believe that they’re the right thing, and that gets us in a lot of trouble because, often, our quarrels are because, “I think I measure success this way and you should measure success that way.” So, those two are really big.

And then the other big one is the first conversation in my book is the storytelling conversation. And if we just look at the state of the world right now, we live in stories, and like Yuval Harari’s book, A Brief History of Humankind, we evolved learning to tell stories and we adopt stories, and that’s how we create our culture and our society. The trouble is that when we’re attached to our stories, we believe them as the truth and we’ll do anything to defend them. And that’s a very common theme.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that feels like a, I think, big master key to humanity and life itself. Chuck, not to overhype it, but gives us an example of that in practice.

Chuck Wisner
Okay. Well, let’s say in business, I have situations, I have two actually very similar situations from different companies where the legal department and the finance department weren’t even talking to one another, and two departments that probably should be working hand in hand. They had different stories about what was going on in the company, and they were applying different standards to what was going on in the company, and they were so attached to their story that the other side was the enemy.

And it took bringing them into a room, and just putting, deconstructing these stories so that the finance department could see how the legal guys and gals were thinking, and vice versa. And within a couple days of working hard and playing hard together, those stories started to not be held so hard. And I think if we have a story that we really believe in, and that we think is the truth, it’s like having a story, like having a fist, like we’re telling our story, like, “This is the truth. This is the way it has to be.”

So, anyway, in that situation, deconstruct stories, get them to hear each other, and things start changing rapidly, we start building bridges. And not in business life, but in personal life, even with friends, we have stories and we judge people based on our stories. And if we believe our story is the only one, then our criticisms and our judgments really sting, and they hurt us, and they hurt the other person. So, stories abound everywhere and they cause a lot of the friction and stress that we experience.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you give us an example of an articulation of a story, maybe if it’s not too intricately detailed with the finance and legal, just so we can see how that plays out, like, “Hey, here’s the finance story and here’s the legal story. See how these implications unfold trickly?”

Chuck Wisner
Yeah, I can do that and then I would give you a very personal example, too, of how powerful it is, which might resonate a little more. I grew up with a very redneck grandfather in Pennsylvania near Philadelphia, and I had three older sisters. And when I showed emotion, or when I didn’t want to skin the deer because I didn’t like it because it made me sick, or when I got hurt and cried, the message that I always got was, “You’re not a big-enough man. Be a bigger man. Stop that.”

Now, that’s not a new story. A lot of men my age have experienced that but what I realized was that story I adopted as a child because my grandfather, to some degree my father, but my grandfather, I gave his voice authority, I gave his voice power so I believe I wasn’t a big-enough man. It wasn’t until I was 30 that I was able to bust that story.

And when I busted that story, it was like such a dramatic change because, up to that point, I was a successful architect, I have a family, but I would walk into a room of men and feel smaller than, or not as competent as, or whatever, however, I’m not a big-enough man would show up. And when I busted that story, it was like transformational.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so then, that’s when you entered those rooms, you experienced those feelings, which are not pleasant, which I guess, in turn, likely reduced your confidence, your willingness to take risks, take on projects and initiatives. What are some of the other implications of that story going on for you?

Chuck Wisner
Well, I think back then was, whether we know it or not, that kind of self-limiting belief, other people read that so it affects how other people see you and then how other people treat you, and, in turn, the story they know about you. So, it does have an effect where it’s literally how you’re showing up in the world. And you may think you’re hiding it but it’s actually quite obvious to people that are paying attention. They noticed it and that affects our interaction.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And how did you break free, bust loose of that story?

Chuck Wisner
All right. Well, I left architecture to study the ontology of language, which is a story of why that happened, but once I was in those studies, inside of there, in the world of philosophy of language and the study of language, there’s a term called master assessments. And so, if you’re looking at, “What master assessments do you have of yourself? Good, bad, ones that serve you, ones that don’t serve you.” This happened to be a master assessment I had in my brain, in my mind, that didn’t serve me.

So, using the ideas around language and the five speech acts in deconstructing language, I was able to sort of take it apart. And when I say deconstruct, it’s like, “Wait a minute. What are the facts here?” Well, I’m six feet tall. I’m happily married, I have two young kids, I’m an architect, and all those facts didn’t line up with the story. And so, as I keep looking into it, and saying, “So, what were the standards that my grandfather was applying?” Well, he was a redneck and that was his story about what a man was, and I happen to be the recipient of that standard that I adopted unconsciously.

And so, that’s what I did. I just sort of took it apart piece by piece until I was, “Aha, this isn’t true. This isn’t who I am.” And the next morning when I went in to have coffee with the president of the firm I was working at, we’re good buddies, it was the first time I was able to stand there, have a coffee, and I said to myself, “Holy mackerel, I am taller than Bill.” And, literally, that was like a moment that I was shocked. I was like, “All this time, I saw myself smaller then.” That’s how sort of like embodied this stuff gets.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s powerful. Thank you. Wow! Okay story. Well, we’ll probably talk more about that but maybe we could zoom out a smidge. In terms of The Art of Conscious Conversations, it sounds like we’ve got one major thread in terms of story there. Could you maybe zoom out and tell us what’s sort of the big idea, main message, core thesis? And what do we mean by a conscious conversation?

Chuck Wisner
The core idea is we grow up learning to converse, talk, listen, interact through our culture, through our family, through our education, and we adopt all the norms from those different domains but we’re never really taught to understand how conversations work with the DNA of conversations. And so, through my work and my consulting and my teaching in the last 30 years, I kept seeing clients’ eyes light up or have aha moments when they realized that their stories weren’t the truth, or they didn’t know how to collaborate, or they were abusing power, or whatever, or they adopted standards that don’t serve them.

And then they would say, “Well, where can I read about this?” And there’s amazing information out there but it’s all scattered. And so, I decided to try to take some esoteric work and some work that’s been done by people like Peter Senge and Fred Kaufman, but I decided to sort of compile it into a book, that said, “Look, here’s the fundamentals of conversations. And instead of being unconscious of how they work, let’s have some distinctions so we can become much more aware and make much better decisions about the conversations we’re in and how we want to participate in them.”

And so, one metaphor I like is, like, fish in water. There’s fish swimming, and this old fish swims by two young fish, and he says to them, “Hey, fellas, how’s the water today?” and they just ignore him and they keep swimming. And they stopped, and one of the young fish says to other, “Hey, what’s water?” And so, it’s like they aren’t even aware they’re in water. We, a lot of the times, aren’t aware that we’re in conversations, or aware or conscious of our words and our interactions, in the way as much as we could be.

So, the book presents some distinctions that says, “Okay, let’s think about it. Let’s have some new ways to look at it and see it and experience it.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, when you talked about having an awareness that we’re in a conversation, you have, in fact, segmented the conversations into four universal types. Can you share what those are? We’ll just start there. Can you share, definitionally, what are these four types?

Chuck Wisner
Yes. So, I’ll do a very high level. So, storytelling, and the byline with storytelling is your stories are not the truth. The second conversation is collaboration, and the byline there is seek to understand, and ask questions to understand, and absorb other perspectives. And absorb being the keyword there. The third one is a creative conversation which is about trusting your intuition and learning to balance your left brain and your right brain, and co-create with others.

And the last conversation is commitment conversations. And that conversation is the action conversation. That’s when you and I agree to do a podcast together. That’s when my wife and I agree who’s going to pick up the kids. That’s when a team decides who’s going to lay the strategy for the board meeting. So, that action conversation is everywhere, and we don’t understand it, and we do it in a very sloppy way. Those are the four.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so we talked a bit about storytelling. Is there more you want to say there in terms of how do we get to become consciously aware of our stories and the actual truth?

Chuck Wisner
So, in conversations, we all come to every conversation with a story, with our story about what’s happening, there might be some facts, there might be all of our opinions, it might just be a bunch of assessments or judgments. We, humans, all have patterns of interacting. And I like to use the word patterns because it allows us a little bit to step away from, say, a behavior or a habit that we have, and look at it neutrally, say, “Wow, what’s my pattern around storytelling? What’s my pattern of when I enter a meeting, how I’m telling my story or what energy I’m bringing to that?”

And so, the first thing is becoming aware that your story is not the truth, and then, secondly, how you are presenting yourself and how you’re presenting your stories because we all have patterns around judging, around being perfectionists, around being critical of other people’s ways of doing things. And so, becoming aware means we can have a look, and, instead of maybe a reaction or a pattern of defensiveness, we can change that.

So, I mentioned earlier about a fist. One analogy I like is if we have a story and we believe it’s absolutely true, and it’s a really important topic that we care about, it could be business, it could be out of business, it could be political, it could be not political, but if we believe that we have the answer and we are right, we are basically telling our story with a closed fist. And under every story, there are emotions, and facts, and standards, and power issues, and desires that are really what’s the root of our story.

So, when we can change our fist from closed to open, we can be more humble, more vulnerable, and reveal our thinking under our story. Does that ring?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Yeah. Let’s talk about standards, in particular. How is a standard articulated in our minds?

Chuck Wisner
So, example, I work with women groups sometimes and, just for fun, and this isn’t anything about dissing women or anything, but, for fun, I would say, “So, how many people in the room, when they leave the house, if the beds aren’t all made, they feel like they’re not a good mom or a good housewife?” And, generally, a large proportion, the majority of people in the room, raise their hands.

And I simply ask, “So, that’s a standard. You have that standard. Where did you adopt that?” So, they adopted that standard from their mother, from their grandmother, from their aunty, or a lesson they learned in school. Who knows? But they adopted that, and I’m not judging that standard, but I’m saying to have the standard, and to investigate it, and to decide consciously, whether you want to keep it or not, is that’s where freedom comes from, that’s where I can say, “You know what? I don’t have to feel bad when I go to work because the beds aren’t made.”

And so, the standards for men, we actually are probably taught not to show our emotions. That, too, is a standard. And so, if we investigate that, we can see the benefits of finding ways to be emotionally intelligent, and to productively and effectively share our emotions. We can shift out of that sort of unconscious standard that we hold that might keep us back.

Pete Mockaitis
So, in the example of the beds not being made, I suppose, can you walk us through a little bit more of the detail of how do we look at it because I imagine that’s not a two-minute operation, “Hey, you know what, that’s silly. The beds don’t need to be made, and I’m still a great mom, huh. Well, I looked at that and that’s now behind me”? I imagine there’s a little bit more depth to it. What’s happening there, Chuck?

Chuck Wisner
Yeah. So, I mean, it can happen like that. There are people that go, “Whoa, that’s a standard I didn’t even know I had,” because, literally, I don’t know, some large number, 90% of our standards, we did not consciously choose. We adopted them from our culture and family. So, it can happen where someone goes, “Whoa, that standard, hmm, I don’t need that.”

Now, that doesn’t mean they’re going to switch overnight because it’s like we’re messing around with neuro networks in our brain, and there’s no switch to make it happen overnight. But, slowly, with awareness, maybe the next time this happens, the woman thinks to herself, “Yeah, I feel a little guilty, but you know what, I’ll make them when I get home.” And then two weeks later, she does it again, she goes, “Oh, screw that. I’m fine.” And three weeks later, she goes, “I’m going to make the beds today because I have time.”

And so, she has a totally different relationship with the standard. She can be conscious of, or choose, when she wants to apply it or not apply it. And I often say every time my clients say, “Well, I don’t want to do this habit,” or, “I want to change that standard,” and I say, “Well, if I had a magic pill and you never did that again, would you pay me $10,000?” And most people say, “Sure,” and I’d be a rich man. But there’s no magic pill.

So, it’s beginning to increase our awareness of what our patterns are, whether it’s standards or some kind of ways that we emotionally react to things, pay attention in a new way, and then begin a process of being consciously choosing how you want to shift that pattern.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s a really good question there with regard to the magic pill, which reminds me, I’m thinking about the book Feeling Great by David Burns, the sequel to Feeling Good. And they asked a similar question about if I had a magic button where you’d never worry about this again if you press it, usually, often they say, “Well, no, I don’t want to press it. Like, there are times and places in which this reaction, standard, belief, story is a value to me. And just sort of severing it entirely is not ideal.”

And so, that question in and of itself, it kind of segments or puts you down a different fork path of potentially insightful exploration, like, “Huh, there’s just no place for this at all,” versus, “Wow, under these circumstances or with these nuances, it’s great.”

Chuck Wisner
Yeah, actually, and that’s being aware of and understanding the underbelly of the standard or the underbelly of the assumption or judgment so you can make a more wise choice about how to apply or how not to apply. There are times when this gets into a little bit of the power issues. At times, you can be in business and someone might say to you, “You did a terrible job.” Depending on the hierarchy, depending on your relationship with that person, you might not give a damn about what they said.

But the next day, someone else with more power, or hierarchy, or higher in the hierarchy, says something, and you trust them and you give their voice a lot of power, you care a lot about what they said. And that, too, is a choice point, but being aware of those differences makes us be able to be much smarter and wise choices.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. All right, so we talked about story bits. Anything that you really want to make sure to put out there about collaborative conversations and how those can go better?

Chuck Wisner
Yes. Now, if you think about storytelling, that’s the primary because that’s where the book starts, and it’s a good 50 pages at the beginning of the book because we have to start with our own stuff. We have to become more aware of our stories and where we are and how we show up in the world with them. Now, we walk into a room, and there’s two people, you and I, or five people, or a meeting of 10 or 20 people, now we have 20 people, 20 stories around the room, 20 different perspectives around the room.

And when we are entering there with a semi-closed fist, or closed fist, there’s a lot of friction and a lot of stress that’s created because everyone is trying to up the other person. And I think the fundamental pattern that we have is to, we’re educated to have the answer, we raise our hands to have the answer, and get the gold star, but the fundamental pattern is that when we enter into collaboration, or let’s just say we enter into conversations, we’re not even aware whether we’re collaborating or not, we enter conversations, we generally can enter in defensively because we want our answer to be right.

And so, the real art of the collaborative conversation is learning to not give up your position, but hold your position with an open hand and reveal the thinking underneath. Are there power issues? What are the desires you have? What are the concerns you have? What are the standards you’re holding? And when we can be a little more vulnerable and open our hands that way, we are also inviting other people to do the same thing.

So, the collaborative conversation is the art of open advocacy and open inquiry. And open advocacy means open hand. An open inquiry means asking questions that you really want to understand, better understand the other person’s perspective, versus inquiry, where you’re asking questions to prove them wrong so you can be right.

And so, there’s a dance there, and there’s no, “I can’t say do this first, do this second,” there’s a dance with paying attention, and there’s a motion, and there’s body language, and it’s this dance of opening and opening and learning together, I call it mutual learning, where multiple perspectives can surface up. And because of that, there’s space for ideas to bubble up, there’s ways that I can say to you, “Oh, gosh, I never thought of it that way.” So, that changes how I’m thinking about the problem.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m curious, if you’re not in the headspace of feeling curious – curious, not being curious – you’re not curious and you do think someone is wrong, do you have any pro tips on how to just do a mental emotional redirect to into a better head space, groove, flow, to have a higher-quality conversation?

Chuck Wisner
Well, let’s say the best place to start is compare, state what you know is to be real, to be true, to be factual, and see if you can find a bridge with the other person about, “This is what happened,” or, “This is what’s happening,” because the facts are the safest ground we have to stand on in a collaborative conversation.

Now, we know from politics that when that ground is shaky, it’s just a freaking nightmare. So, if you can sort of calm yourself to go, “Okay, we don’t agree, and before we actually start sharing our standards and things like that, what are the facts we agree on? We agree that the…” going back to the legal and financing, “…that the company last quarter, the last four quarters had been pretty miserable, and we have to change things, and we have to push our product in a different way, or be more creative.” We agree on the state of things, and that’s a solid ground to work from.

And then, from there, we can start asking questions, like, “Well, how do you think about X? And what you think about the market share?” And so, that inquiry is how we learn what the underbelly of your judgment is or your disagreement is. It’s always going underneath to find out more, to think about your thinking, or to reveal your thinking.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And I’m curious, in the course of having these conversations, are there any favorite or least favorite words or phrases that you think really open up cool things or shut it down real quick?

Chuck Wisner
Well, I think that most of the time, what shuts things down is judgment. So, someone will maybe put something out there, and another person will rise up right away with, “Well, that will never work.” And that’s why I shy away from the term brainstorming because we all know what that means, but the downside of brainstorming is someone comes up with a crazy idea and someone else in the room goes, “Well, we tried that five years ago, it never worked,” and that closes down the conversation.

So, this sort of gets us into the creative conversation because if you and I are in a mutual learning conversation where I’m saying, “Wow, I never thought of it that way,” and we’re sort of coming to a way of having a mutual understanding, what happens is there’s space in that conversation, there’s space in our minds, and ideas start bubbling up. And together, we might come up with, an idea might bubble up that you didn’t think of, or I didn’t think of, independently, and we both go, “Whoa, yeah, that’s the answer. Wow!”

And that’s how the creative conversation functions. It only functions when all parties are willing to be in that open space, open mind, open heart space.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, “We did that last year” is not a great phrase in a creative conversation. Any other phrases you love and phrases you don’t?

Chuck Wisner
So, a phrase that’s really useful is “Help me understand your position. Please help me understand your thinking. What’s your thinking under your thinking?” That’s a very inviting sort of phrase that tells the other person you’re open to not criticizing but to truly understanding. And your other question was what some that aren’t so helpful.

So, the unhelpful are instead of asking questions, to stay in advocacy, what I call closed advocacy, where no matter what they say, your response is, “Yes, but I think…” blah, blah, blah. And so, that’s a closed advocacy where we still can’t undo that need to be right, and so that’s a real trap. And the distinction that I’ve learned from my teachers is the distinction of being a knower versus a learner.

And so, the bad side of the advocacy and inquiry and the collaborative conversation is to be stuck as a knower, and no matter what the other person does, even if they ask you a good question, you don’t want to reveal your thinking, you don’t want to open your hand, you just go, “No, this is the way it is because this is my experience,” and you’re just stuck. You’re sort of like a solid rock.

Pete Mockaitis
Got you. Okay. And can you tell us what are mindful agreements and how do we get there?

Chuck Wisner
So, there’s a phrase that I have in the book, a little chapter around commitment conversations, that I called the conversational bypass. And what I mean by that is we have storytelling, and we have commitment conversations. Those are our favorite conversations. We like to tell our stories and we like to take action.

The middle two conversations – collaborative and creative – take more effort, take a little more time, take a change in how we’re showing up, and so what I’d say is because we love our stories, and we’re addicted to action, we leap from storytelling to action, and we do a bypass. So, an example might be we’re in a meeting, there’s a couple people, let’s say, someone saying, “Here’s what we’re trying to solve, here’s the problem,” a couple voices speak up, the loud extrovert speak up, the boss might say what his is, and then someone in the room, or the boss, or someone says, “Okay, what are we going to do?”

And so, we make a leap to action and decision, and often those decisions aren’t as vetted as they could be because we haven’t listened to opposing perspectives, we haven’t taken the time to come up with other possibilities. The creative conversation is about possibilities, what’s possible. And so, that bypass makes us make bad decisions.

A good commitment conversation, a good promise, means both sides understand what’s being asked, what’s being promised, and what success looks like. So, that conversation actually involves every time someone makes a request, we do X, Y, and Z, our tendency, our pattern as a culture is to default to yes. And when we default to yes, we miss, we don’t take the time to get clarity, and go, “Wait a minute. What am I really promising here? What’s the timing? What’s the condition to satisfaction? Who’s it for? What format do you want?” Whatever the questions are, we miss that because we are sort of addicted to, “Sure, no problem. I can do that.”

And an example is someone runs by your desk, and says, “Can you put some numbers together for me for Monday morning?” You say, “Sure.” You and your team spend the weekend putting a 30-page report together. Monday morning, the boss takes it, looks at the back page which is a summary, rips the back page off, “Perfect. This is just what I need for my meeting.” And how many manhours were spent because they didn’t take an extra five minutes to ask the question, “Listen, to help you with your meeting, I really want to understand what you really need.”

And now, with the rip of the last page, the boss goes off happy, unaware that 300 manhours were spent, and they’re all frustrated, and they all now have a story about the boss, and so we’re back to stories. So, we can do commitment conversations, just slow the process down a bit. Any request, make sure you have an understanding of what you’re making a promise.

And the other thing is to avoid the yes. Don’t make promises you can’t keep. I can be asked to do something, and maybe I’m not competent to do it, and I have to be willing to say, “You know, I need a week to learn how to do that,” or, “I need help how to do that.” So, there’s all kinds of ways, if we slow down the process, we might discover how we can make them a sloppy promise but a better promise.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Chuck, any final thoughts before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Chuck Wisner
Yeah, I think, for me, this is a practice. I think learning about how conversations work, there’s no switch, there’s no magic pill, but as we look at the distinctions, it gives us a new lens, and be gentle on yourself. Don’t judge yourself. Be curious about, “Well, what is my pattern and how can I change that pattern?” And that change is sort of a slow process. It’s like it might change overnight but it might take you a week, it might take you two weeks. But if you stay paying attention and patient with yourself and nonjudgmental, you can change those patterns.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Chuck Wisner
Well, one of my favorite spiritual teachers is Hafiz who was pre-Rumi. And I love this quote, he says, “Even after all this time, the sun never says to the earth, ‘You owe me.’ Look what happens with a love like that. It lights up the whole sky.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Chuck Wisner
Right now, I’m liking neuroscience, and I’m not a neuroscientist, so I don’t go too deeply, but I think we’re just on the brink of learning how the brain works and how the chemicals interact and the electrical impulses, this incredible complex set of neurons, billions of neurons. And I think what it’s doing is giving us a window into why we humans act the way we do, which takes a little bit of the sting out on some of our habits so we can look at them more neutrally and with a little more compassion.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite book?

Chuck Wisner
It’s a few years old but I love Yuval Harari’s book called Sapiens. And I like it because he tells a different story about humans, how we evolved, and how our brains and our thinking evolved. Again, it’s a fresh look at how mythology got created in concert with how our brains developed, and so we learned to tell myths so we can have bigger societies, and then we attach ourselves to those myths. Even money is a story, and law is a story. And so, it’s a way of looking at the world so we aren’t so attached to our particular perspective but we learn a little more tolerance. And the world could use a fair amount of that right now.

Pete Mockaitis
Can you elaborate on how money and law is a story? Because I think, to many, they think, “Well, those things are just ironclad.”

Chuck Wisner
Yeah. Well, over time, money has evolved from a point where at some time in history, shells could be a form of trade. And metals, or precious metals, even tulips, at one point, were the trade for the way that we did trade, and what had value. And so, money is a story because we all agree that this piece of paper has value. The piece of paper is nothing. The value and the power only is in our agreement of its value. And that agreement is a story that we all adopt and live by.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And could you share a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Chuck Wisner
Well, I say meditation is a really important tool for self-awareness and learning to understand our minds. And, at my age, yoga is really important, so I think mental and physical things like that, that help keep us awake and aware and able, are really important things to pay attention to.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Chuck Wisner
I think the visual in my book of a spiral, it’s like V-shaped and think of a funnel like you put a quarter in a funnel at a museum of science. And by the time the quarter gets to the bottom, it’s spinning so fast you don’t recognize it as a quarter. I use that visual to help people understand that when something triggers them, emotional trigger, an upsetting event, that, generally, what we do is we spiral down, and it’s usually fear-based. There’s some fear we have that has us spiraling down. And the opposite of fear is love at the top.

And I bring that up because that visual helps people, when they do catch themselves triggered or spiraling, they go, “Okay, where am I on the funnel?” And that stops the spin, and then we can do some investigation into our thinking and into our emotions, and stop spiraling down, and maybe move ourselves up through that awareness.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Chuck Wisner
My website is ChuckWisner.com. I believe they can download a free PDF of the introduction. My Instagram, chuck_wisner, and LinkedIn, and I think Facebook is the same.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Chuck Wisner
Yes. I’d say investigate your thinking, be kind to yourself, be tolerant, try to be less judgmental, and really practice opening your hand so you can have an open hand and an open heart, and also being aware that you have to protect yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Chuck, thank you. This has been a treat. I wish you many lovely conscious conversations.

Chuck Wisner
Same to you. Hope it resonates.

Pete Mockaitis
Tracy and Tim, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Tracy Maylett
Thank you. A pleasure, Pete. Thank you.

Tim Vandehey
Thanks. Thanks very much.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to dig into the wisdom of your book, Swipe: The Science Behind Why We Don’t Finish What We Start. I am guilty of starting a lot of things that are unfinished, so I’m particularly jazzed to get into this. So, maybe, for starters, could you share, was there a particularly surprising or counterintuitive discovery you made while researching and putting together Swipe?

Tracy Maylett
This was interesting. We didn’t set out to start writing a personal book about finishing what I, as an individual, start. We originally set out to think about why people are leaving organizations or disengaging in organizations. So, to answer your question, I think the big aha for me, as we went through this, was this is not just about the workplace. This desire or inability to continue what we start is actually something that’s applicable to ourselves as individuals, not just only in the workplace.

Tim Vandehey
Tracy and I have done two other books prior to this together, with me as a ghost writer. And we got together at the very beginning of 2020, really before the world shut down, and talked about, “Okay, what’s our third book going to be?” It was intended to be the same kind of collaboration. And we came up with this idea about kind of the metaphor of swiping your smartphone as a shorthand for the distract-ability of, in this case, the employee. We’d done two books on the employer’s responsibility for getting people to engage.

And so, we had this idea, and we liked it. We went away to our own little personal writing caves, and started making notes, and working on things. And, at some point in the summer, the COVID summer of 2020, we connected and we said, “This is a bigger book than just about employee engagement. This is something everyone does.”

And coming from the world of writing, I’ve been a freelance writer for almost 29 years now. My life is filled with people who have tried to start books and never been able to finish them. So, it immediately resonated that, “This is a universal thing.” I remember our conversation, I was sitting in my backyard, I said, “This is a bigger book, isn’t it?” And Tracy agreed, and we realized it was this was universal.

And so, that’s what we discovered not long after we came up with the concept, was this was something applies to just about everyone.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, the ghost comes out of hiding. It makes sense.

Tim Vandehey
Yes. I don’t show up on film, which is a problem.

Pete Mockaitis
Anyways, your whole career is built on this principle of people not being able to finish what they have started.

Tim Vandehey
That is very true. Yeah, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
So, that’s a fun perspective there. So, lay it on us in terms of the idea, what do we mean precisely by swiping? And can you paint a real clear picture for all of us there?

Tim Vandehey
Well, the idea behind the Swipe, again, we started off borrowing from the analogy of swiping on a smartphone. The swipe, as we call it, and swiping, the verb…

Pete Mockaitis
Swipe, swept, has or has swepened.

Tim Vandehey
Yes. Well, we haven’t really gotten into swept, haven’t really gotten into the past participle and so on. Nice to meet a bigger grammar nerd than myself. This idea that when we are confronted with an uncomfortable situation, or with discomfort, particularly, in this case, as it pertains to attempting things that we have not been able to do yet.

So, when we find ourselves disillusioned, embarrassed, doubting our abilities, etc., rather than stick with it, we take a cue from the smartphone, let’s say, where it’s very easy to change your experience, sort of change your reality, just with the tap of an app symbol or the swipe of a finger. Boom, you’re immediately onto something else.

So, the swipe, that reflexive, what I like to call hitting the eject button, from whatever it is you’re doing that’s making you uncomfortable. And in the case of what we’re talking about, it’s attempting something that you may not have done before, and you reached that point where you’ve written 50 pages of your novel, and suddenly you have no idea where to go, and you say, “Ah, to heck with it. I’ll try this again later.” That’s what swiping is, it’s that reflex of, “I’m not comfortable where I am. I’m going to immediately, reflexively change my reality so I don’t have to deal with that discomfort.”

Tracy Maylett
And we started in the workplace here. This is all about, this was pre-Great Resignation. This was, as we’re starting to look at what’s causing people to disengage in their jobs. It was based on a 50 million survey, employee survey responses, so this is not a small dataset, saying, “Why are people leaving their jobs when these were once wonderful jobs, and these are great people?”

We don’t show up to work thinking, “I sure hope today is awful. I hope the life gets sucked out of me in my job today.” That’s not natural human nature. The same thing when we’re at home. Also, we don’t begin projects with the idea that, “I’m going to not finish this project.” So, as Tim mentioned, it’s very reflexive. The swipe is reflexive. We don’t take this time to stop and think about it. And this book is really focused on that reflex and how to avoid that reflex.

Pete Mockaitis
And I feel that in terms of it’s like procrastinating except broader. I think it’s how I’m hearing and receiving that, in that I might be doing a thing, it’s kind of hard, it’s kind of unpleasant, it’s like, “Well, let’s just maybe process some emails instead. That’s easier.” So, I have shifted my reality. If it were on the smartphone, I would swipe. On a Mac, I would Command Tab. It’s like we’re just going to move away from that window, and onto another window of experience, which feels a little bit more manageable here.

So, I’m imagining that is not optimal for human wellbeing and thriving. Could you paint a picture of just what are the consequences when this is a habitual reflexive lifestyle for folks?

Tracy Maylett
Let’s talk about the neuroscience piece here for just a moment. Swipe actually changes the way our brain functions. When you think about it, what’s happened with technology over the last while, it’s even changed the way we read. We read differently. We don’t read left to right. We read top to bottom. And what causes us to do is move through pieces very, very quickly.

Also, we’ve come to an age where we’re making very, very quick decisions in the things that we do. We don’t take the time to stop and think something through. That’s the nature of the swipe. It’s very reflexive. It’s something that we have become natural at, something that’s new to us. And because of that, that changes our entire thought patterns and the things that we do. One of the reasons that we decided to go down this route was Tim was looking to this and started talking about the pain and the regret that this causes.

We find some interesting statistics in the workplace, for example. Right now, there are a number of statistics to show when somebody does leave that job, when they swipe past that job. We’re seeing that as many as 30% of those individuals, within the first 90 days, quit the next job or regret that next job. So, we develop patterns in our own lives. Those patterns become a part of who we are.

Tim Vandehey
The other thing, I think, to continue Tracy’s neuroscience track, is that what we also found is when there’s the idea of mastery. The more you do something, the better you get at it. I’m not going to cite the whole Gladwell 10,000 hours thing. That’s been debunked. But the idea is if you follow through on something, you get better at it.

What we found is that that really only applies when you get past a certain point, when you finished, when you’ve finished something to completion, typically, because you have to get all the way through that awful first draft of your novel. To know what you’re doing, you have to get through that workout program to understand how your body has been changing, and how to do it, how to work out in the future.

And what we found is that when people swipe repeatedly, because this is a repeated phenomenon. That’s one of the things that distinguishes it from procrastination is most people, they don’t quit something, they don’t swipe on a goal once. They go back and try it again and again and again, usually, from the same strategy. They don’t really make changes, and think, “This time I’ll do better.” And they end up doing the same thing.

And over time, what happens is we don’t become good at the task we keep attempting and failing at. We become good at swiping. We become good at bailing out of the boat when a couple of holes get poked in it because that’s what we’ve done repeatedly, is we’ve jumped out and away from that task because we felt some sort of emotional response that made us uncomfortable.

Tracy Maylett
We even end one of the chapters by saying when we continue to swipe, we practice, and we practice, we become good at it, and the only thing that we actually master is the swipe itself.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, can you share with us perhaps an inspiring story of someone who was habitual swiper, and then had a turn around?

Tim Vandehey
That’s a good question.

Tracy Maylett
One of the things that really impressed me as we were starting to write this book is Tim brought up this concept of National Writers Month. And the concept that we have an opportunity here for people to actually finish something, finish what they actually started. And the numbers, to me, was just staggering. Tim, it was just amazing to see the number of authors that really get in.

Tim Vandehey
That’s actually a great example. That’s a great example. That was probably the thing, the idea that inspired the book. I don’t know if you’re familiar with National Novel Writing Month.

Pete Mockaitis
I’ve heard of it. So, you write a novel in a month?

Tim Vandehey
Yeah, if you can suss that out pretty easily but, yeah. So, I think they came up with it, God, back in the early ‘90s, I think. But, basically, the gist of it is you sign up to write a 50,000-word manuscript in 30 days in November. It happens every November. You have to write the book within the 30 days. Quality is not an issue. The idea is to finish something, which tells you how compelling the idea, at least in the world of writing, in my world, the idea of finishing a book is, and how much of a Holy Grail it is.

So, 250,000 people have managed to not swipe during that month of November and finished something. Now, most of the books, from what I understood, I’ve read a couple, they’re dreadful as you would expect. Now, there had been a few, Sara Gruen’s Water for Elephants was one that was written that as that was a National Novel Writing Month book, and I think that was not only a New York Times bestseller but I think it became a movie. I think.

But that’s the best example I know because that’s a lot of people who have managed to do that, something that they’ve struggled with, in some cases, for decades. And that points to something, if I can transition, because that’s a logical transition, to some of the preventive issues that we have figured out in writing this book that can keep people from swiping. They are on display during National Novel Writing Month in spades.

Pete Mockaitis
Lay it on us.

Tim Vandehey
There are really two issues. One is expectation management. The other is motivation management. So, what we have found is that people who go into a task, and it could be their tenth time, it doesn’t matter. If they have erroneous expectations, false expectations, expectations that’s not based in reality, they are far more likely to swipe, to quit, because, of course, they go into it naïve, possibly.

I remember when I tried to write my first book, I can’t remember how long ago it was, I had no idea how hard it would be past the burst of energy. And it was gut-wrenching after maybe 35 or 40 pages. We actually use a term, page-one energy, to talk about this enthusiasm. The enthusiasm of the naïve before they realize what they got themselves into.

So, with National Novel Writing Month, again, to go back to that example, the whole culture of the things is, “This is going to be hard.” And people lean into how hard it is. They have the last week, the whole country is dotted with National Novel Writing Month sort of sleepovers where people get together for a week and just write, and write, and write, and get little snatches of sleep, and sleep on the floor in sleeping bags. And it becomes kind of like camp for crazy people.

So, the expectations are managed. You go into it knowing “This is going to suck,” or, “These are the results I’m going to get.” The analogy I like to use is working out. You go into a workout program, and you think, “I’m going to be jacked after a month.” And then you look in the mirror after a month, and you’re not jacked, you might’ve lost a little bit of weight, but you don’t look like The Rock.

If you actually had an expectation, you’re likely to say, “Forget it,” throw up your hands, “I’m done. This is stupid.” So, expectation management is incredibly important. The second part is about motivation. Why are you doing this? Are you doing it because you’re envious of someone else who did? Or, you think you’re supposed to? Or, your family expects you to do this? Or, what’s the reason? Because the motivation is what you need when you hit those roadblocks to keep you going.

And National Novel Writing Month, the motivation is, “I’ve told a whole bunch of other people in my community…” because the organization has little chapters all over the country, “…all these other writers that I’m going to do this, so they’re going to hold me to it. And I really want to do this but, more importantly, I don’t want to be embarrassed in front of all the other people who are going to keep going and keep doing it if I slack off, then I look like a loser and they don’t.” So, motivation matters.

And when people get both of those things right, it’s not to say they won’t swipe, they still might but they’re much less likely to.

Tracy Maylett
As we were looking to writing this book, and Tim corrected me on this as we were doing it, which was wonderful because, through my work, working with people at tops of organizations and Tim’s opportunity to meet lots of really cool people through his authoring, one of the things we started to do, or I started to do, is throw in examples of really high-profile people, these individuals who everyone knows are three-time Olympians, etc.

And we started looking at this, and saying, “That’s fantastic,” and people are setting their sights on that, and they’re seeing these wonderful powerhouses. But the reality is every single one of us still witnesses this at some point in their lives and multiple times in our life. This is not written for that, “How do you go win the bobsled race in the Olympics?” This is really written to that individual who is trying to complete something who’s not been able to do that, and is now suffering those negative effects because of that.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. So, this notion of the expectation and the motivation making all the difference seems quite resonant. And I’m thinking about, are you familiar with Andrew Huberman with the Huberman Lab?

Tracy Maylett
No.

Pete Mockaitis
I feel like I talk about him nonstop. Well, he’s a neurobiologist out of Stanford who’s got a huge podcast, so he’ll just multi-hour conversations about different topics in biology or science and science-based tools for everyday life is his thing.

And so, he has millions upon millions of downloads and views and all that, but he mentioned, I think it’s intriguing that what he calls the Holy Grail of motivation is if you can find motivation in a form of enjoyment in the pain and suffering and challenge of the things, and he holds up David Goggins as archetypical example here, super ultra marathon, Navy Seal, like hardcore pain experiences over and over again, and to find a sort of a fuel and enjoyment and motivation within that.

And what you described here in the writing context, as opposed to like the physical ultra marathon context, is that, “Hey, this is going to be hard. At times, it is going to suck that may require sleepovers to actually pull it off.” And rather than that turning people off, like, “Ugh, no, thanks. I don’t want it. I don’t care to deal with all that hassle,” it’s kind of like, “Ooh, heck, yeah. Aargh, let’s get after it.”

Tim Vandehey
Yeah, it’s a shared experience. Well, it’s funny because I’d done a lot of writing in the endurance sports world, not recently, but in the past, and one of the mottos of marathoners, and ultra marathoners, and triathletes, and ultra triathletes is that, “The winner is the one who can out-suffer everybody else.” And, in fact, I did a book for Chris McCormack who was the Australian, one of the best triathletes of all time. And he used to say his motto was “Embrace the suck.”

So, it’s going to suck, accept it, get into it, make it part of the experience, is that you’re going to give yourself over to that, and part of the satisfaction is knowing that, “That really sucked and I got through it.”

Tracy Maylett
Well, you look at that in the workplace also, and as soon as we receive a difficult assignment, or don’t get that promotion that we’re after, the tendency now is to just say, “Okay, I’ll go down the street.” And the reality is it’s the journey that’s the valuable piece here. It’s not just the end state. It’s the suck. It’s the part that was really, really difficult that made those individuals who they are today.

And when they confront that again, now they’ve learned to confront that. If I am in a workplace, and after two months I have a project that I don’t necessarily enjoy, well, yeah, that’s part of life, that’s what we deal with. But it’s those pieces that are difficult that make us who we are. And this is really about to value those pieces, embrace those pieces that may be more difficult because that’s what really builds the character and builds that individual.

Tim Vandehey
Yeah, one of the things that we probably, if we had more time and more pages, we would’ve looked at what happens to someone after they don’t swipe, after they actually finish something that they have been trying to do for a long time. And, again, going back to National Novel Writing Month, one of the things that they found is success in that area becomes kind of addictive. You did it once, you’re going to go back and do it again and again.

There are people who have written 20 novels through that program. I have no idea if any of them were any good, but once they know they can do it, it becomes kind of intoxicating. I have no data on this, and we didn’t look at it, but my guess would be that’s probably true for a lot of people in a huge range of endeavors, that once you actually able to get…especially if you’ve failed a lot, if you’ve swiped repeatedly, and you finally hit the finish line.

I’ve been at the finish line of the Ironman World Championships in Hawaii and watched people who managed to finish their first Ironman. The age groupers have to finish in under 17 hours, and they finished at 16:55 the first they’ve been able to do it after multiple failures. All the pain goes away. They could not care. Their bodies could be falling apart. It’s absolute exultation because they finally made it. It’s amazing.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, you also have a bit of an acronym to help us cure swipe – MAGIC. Can you walk us through this?

Tracy Maylett
Yeah, MAGIC was based on our work with employee engagement, what causes someone to engage in their job. So, looking in the opposite side of this, we know what causes people to swipe, what causes people to stay. Now, this isn’t just specifically towards employment. This is any relationship. This could be with my children. This could be in my community. It could be in a workplace, but the idea here is when these five elements, and MAGIC is an acronym, when these five elements are present, I will tend to engage.

And the degree to which these are important to me, some may be more important than others, and the degree to which these are fulfilled will cause me to choose whether or not I’m engaged and will continue forward. So, that acronym is MAGIC, M-A-G-I-C. The first of those is meaning, so the M is meaning. When I find purpose beyond just the job itself, or when I find a reason why I choose to learn the piano, etc., there’s something that’s valuable to me, a purpose, I will stay and I will continue to do what I’m doing.

The second piece is the A, which is autonomy. Autonomy is not anarchy. That’s not our A. Autonomy is to be able to use our abilities in the best way possible, have the freedom to do so. So, in the workplace, it does not necessarily mean I have free rein of anything I want to do but I’m able to channel my skills and abilities to make that happen. That happens in a marriage, that could happen in any relationship that we have.

When I use my abilities, then the next piece happens, which is G, growth. The opposite of growth is stagnation. If I’m stagnating in a community, if I’m stagnating in a workplace, I will disengage, I’ll swipe, I’ll move forward. The I stands for impact. Impact is seeing the results of your effort. So, if I continue to work out day after day after day, and I’m not seeing a result of my effort, the likelihood of me swiping is going to be pretty high. So, we measure that, we gain tiny successes along the way.

And the final piece of that is C. The C which is connection. Connection is a sense of belonging to something beyond just yourself. That could be a social connection. One of the reasons why the National Novel Writing Month is successful is not just I’m buckling down. It’s that I’m commiserating with other people. Other people are doing this with me at the same time, that ability to establish those connections, connection to the workplace, connection to the environment that I’m in.

When those five elements are present – meaning, autonomy, growth, impact, and connection – that’s kind of the anti-swipe. It keeps me from moving forward. This was based, again, on we started with 14 million employee survey responses, and moved actually to 50 million employee survey responses, but we found that that’s not just the workplace phenomenon. It happens in our lives as well. And so, that’s kind of what we saw as one of the areas for anti-swipe.

Tim Vandehey
Speaking of the anti-swipe, and related to what Tracy said about the workplace, the sort of counter-phenomenon that we defined in the book, as opposed to the swipe, was something we called tapping out. And that is especially relevant when it comes to the workplace. It’s relevant in other areas as well. But where a swipe is a reflex that comes from discomfort, from fear, embarrassment, disillusionment, etc., and usually leads to regret because the things we swipe from are generally things that are good for us and that we want to do.

We really want to finish that book. We really want to get in shape. We really want to save money, etc. A tapping out is an affirmative act. Tapping out is not reflexive. We’re choosing to walk away from a situation that is bad for us.

Pete Mockaitis
You’re in a chokehold, you’re starting to black out, I think now would be a good time to stop.

Tim Vandehey
So, now the example I like to use is not a workplace example but it’s perfectly illustrative of this, is the gymnast Simone Biles back in 2020. She chose to walk away from the team Olympic gold in the 2020 Olympics because she was having what they called the twisties, where she was unable to perceive her position in space while she was doing vaults and things, which, of course, for a gymnast can be incredibly dangerous.

And she made an affirmative choice to walk away and choose her own physical and mental health over competing in the events. And there was a little bit of pushback but most people praised her for it. They praised her for putting herself first, and it was, obviously, a decision that she felt good about. That is the polar opposite of a swipe. Tapping out is an affirmative act, you feel good about it, it is not something you regret. It is something when you say, “This is not a good situation for me,” probably most commonly in a job.

Now, the Great Resignation we talked about, a lot of those people probably disengaged in ways that had nothing with to do with anything healthy. Some people probably tapped out because they said, “Look, I’m not being valued here, I’m not being compensated properly, I’m not being listened to, I’m not given opportunities to grow,” and so they chose to go elsewhere, and that is a tap-out, and it’s important to distinguish that from a swipe.

Tracy Maylett
The key difference here is a swipe is, Tim, would you agree with this, it’s purely reflexive.

Tim Vandehey
Yeah, it’s system one. It’s system-one stuff.

Pete Mockaitis
I’d love to get your views then, zooming right into the heat of battle in terms of you’re feeling some discomfort, you’d like to quit or change a channel, any pro tips for right there in the here and now, what do we do to persist?

Tracy Maylett
Tim just mentioned something that’s important, which is system one. This is by the work of Daniel Kahneman. It was really interesting. He said our brain is, really, our mind, is divided into two systems, system one and system two. System one is very reflexive. I don’t stop. It’s a reflex. So, it’s something that I do out of habit, something I do just as a reflex rather than something I have to stop and think about.

System two, the acts that takes place in system two is very reflective. It is something I stop and I think about, I pay attention to, I have to evaluate, I have to take thought that’s in this. So, the reason I’m mentioning these two systems is because swipe is truly a system one reflex. It is, “I don’t stop and think about it. I don’t consider the consequences. I don’t consider my motivations. I don’t consider what really is involved in here, the expectations.”

System two requires that you stop and think about that stuff, “Why am I doing this? What’s important? What would be the end result of this?” So, in the book, we give a series of steps that you can actually go through to distinguish between the two of these, and one of those is to play it through to the end, “If I make this decision right now, and it were recorded on a VCR, how would this movie end?” Do we even do VCRs anymore? “If this were part of a film, how would this film end if I were to make this step right now?”

So, that’s one of the things to consider, “What will be the end result of this action, not just this temporary relief of discomfort? What will be the final result of this?”

Tim Vandehey
And it’s very easy to say that people should do what Tracy just described. Tracy described it perfectly. But we all know that’s a lot more difficult to actually do that in real time. So, a big part, and I think the power of what we did in the book was to simply call out the fact that this phenomenon exists. It’s knowable. It’s somewhat predictable and it’s understandable. And I think the key to being able to do what Tracy described, to play it through to the end in real time is to go into the next attempt at whatever it is that people have swiped from multiple times in the past.

Knowing that this happens, knowing that, “Okay, after I get to page X, I am prone to swiping, I’m prone to panicking, becoming embarrassed, doubting my abilities as a writer, and saying, ‘To heck with it. I’m going to delete this file and I’ll try again in five years or something.’” And to say, “Okay, I’m watching out for when those impulse strikes, and instead of just blindly blundering in, thinking, ‘Well, maybe this time it’ll be different.” The four of the worst words are, “This time it’s different.” They say that in finance a lot.

Instead, saying to yourself, “I’m going to be watching for those signs that I’m feeling that panic reflex,” and instead catching yourself be mindful enough to say, “Okay, hold on. Hold on. What will happen? What am I going to feel if I walk away for the sixth time?” As opposed to, “What if I actually get through this? And what if I do like all the people doing National Novel Writing Month, and I finish this?” or, “I finish this workout,” or, “I train for the marathon and actually run it.” It doesn’t matter.

One of the keys here, that’s why National Novel Writing Month, I keep referring to it, it’s so brilliant, is it’s not about the quality. It’s about finishing. It’s about finally breaking the tape, “And how will I feel when I actually do that?” Odds are people are going to feel pride and tremendous sense of accomplishment.

So, projecting into the future that way, that’s the ultimate preventer, really, and the expectation and motivation things we talked about before help, but, ultimately, you have to be able to catch yourself in real time, and say, “Whoa, okay. Take a deep breath. Let’s keep going because I know if I do, I’m going to be glad I did.”

Because what we see is that overwhelming regret. We talked to someone who’s quit something time and time again, who swiped over and over again. I always hear the same thing from writers, “God, if I had only kept going. If I’d kept going back then two years ago, I’d have two other books written by now.” I hear that all the time, and we all do that, “If I kept working out, I’d be in like the P90X guy kind of shape right now,” etc.

And so, if we can catch ourselves, if we can be mindful that the swipe is a thing, that’s what makes it possible to catch ourselves in real time and make that choice.

Pete Mockaitis
What really comes to mind here, we talked about the reflexive actions versus remembering to stop and think about the consequences, what will happen, projecting into the future, is I had a buddy who wanted to stop vaping. And so, I don’t know if this is a very clever idea, he had a bunch of index cards, and he wrote on each one of them a reason why to stop vaping or how life would be better if he were not addicted to this anymore.

And he placed them on top of his giant vape stick, and so whenever he wanted to reach for it, he had all these reasons, and that was sort of his rule, it’s like, “Oh, well, you’re free to vape, just you have to read all of these first.” And it worked for him.

Tim Vandehey
Yeah, that’s great. There’s a great thing by a comedian Jim Jeffries who talks about gun control. He talks about, “Everybody should have a gun. That’s fine. But everybody should have a musket because the great thing about a musket is it gives you a lot of time to calm down.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

Tim Vandehey
You’re pouring in the powder before you get a shot.

Pete Mockaitis
I saw a musket in Boy Scout Camp. That was my first firearm shot.

Tim Vandehey
Yeah, the example was a good one. I mean, giving yourself time to let that impulse fade, giving yourself something else to focus on to let that impulse to quit, because you’re always glad you didn’t. You’re always glad, if you keep going, you’re like, “Oh, thank God, I didn’t mess that up.” It’s that moment of panic and fear. A lot of what I see in the writing world, when it comes to not finishing, is self-doubt or embarrassment.

People are embarrassed to let people read what they’ve written or they just get to a certain point, they think, “I’m not a real writer because I can’t get past page 55.” Well, unless you have an outline and a bunch of character studies mapped out, neither can I. I’ve got to have a whole plan before I can do that. I’ve been writing for 30 plus years. So, yeah, that’s very well-taken is finding a way to slow that impulse down and give yourself a chance to say, “Woo, I don’t want to mess this up. I’ve come this far.”

And there also is a sunk-cost aspect to this. The farther you get into something, I think it is harder to swipe because you have more invested. If you’re on page 250, it’s probably a lot harder to swipe than if you’re on page 45, so.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Well, Tim, Tracy, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear some of your favorite things?

Tim Vandehey
I think we covered the high points.

Tracy Maylett
I think so but I do want to talk about some of our favorite things here, if we can.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Can I hear a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Tracy Maylett
I’ll start on this one because it’s one that kind of, as we started writing the book, this came to mind, and then all through the book, we used it a number of different times. And we credit a couple of different authors for this one. Just the simple quote that, “Wherever you go, there you are.” And that has a couple of different meanings behind it.

The first one, when it comes to swipe, is if I am the person who swipes at this, and then I swipe at the next thing, and the next thing, that’s who I am. That’s what I do. I swipe. Just moving situations, moving jobs, I’m still the same person moving to a different job, and nothing has changed about me. Swipe doesn’t allow us to change. Swipe causes us to be the same person who we are, and then we expect to be somewhat different in a different environment. It just doesn’t happen. So, that was the first part of the swipe that I had to really understand for myself, “Wherever you go, there you are.”

The second part of that says is when you think mentally here, supposed I’m sitting on the couch with my granddaughter, she’s four years of age, and she’s just fantastic, and she talks and talks. And I may be thinking of something else, and I may be answering texts, and I may be thinking about my workplace. Well, I’m not actually, although my body is physically with my granddaughter, my mind is 2,000 miles away, my mind is on the East Coast, my mind is somewhere else. And that happens a lot.

Swipe can happen mentally also. It’s not just physical doing. I can swipe out of something mentally. I can swipe out of relationships. So, the idea that I might as well be sitting on a couch somewhere in Boston versus Salt Lake City, Utah, that’s what happens when my mind swipes and goes to a different place as well. So, that’s one of the biggest pieces of learning for myself, personally, as we went through here, “Wherever I go, there I am,” the most do context.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Tracy Maylett
One of the things that I teach, I teach at universities, and it’s been very interesting to work with students, particularly rising generations of students. Some of these are extremely bright individuals. A lot of times we’ll have them do a change project, “Change something about yourself.”

And what’s interesting is that about half of those change projects come back, saying, “I feel like I’d become something different because of social media. Maybe I feel like I’m feel less self-aware. I pay attention to some things that are as important.” Some people were spending as much as five to six hours a day wasting their lives on social media.

Well, social media is not necessarily a bad thing. And this is not a bash on technology but the idea here is that if I’m spending all of my time on a very small screen, I might as well be somewhere else doing the things that are on that screen. And so, some of these real success stories that have come from this is the ability to recognize that, and say, “That’s not who I am. That’s not what I want to be. I want to be in the moment. I want to pay attention to this rather than swiping and going somewhere else.”

So, one of the big successes here is it’s been really interesting to see some of these very, very bright students made changes in habits because they realized that fact that, “That’s where I actually am. My mind is somewhere else rather than here in front of people having a good conversation.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Tracy Maylett
A lot of some of the research that we’ve done is based on the work of Daniel Kahneman, and really some interesting studies as he’s put out regarding the mind and the brain.

Pete Mockaitis
Alrighty. And is there a resonant nugget, a key thing you share that really seems to connect with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Tracy Maylett
No, just the idea of the swipe, in general. It’s something that people can immediately identify with in their own lives, they say, “Oh, yeah, okay. I get it.” And we’ll give credit to Tim on this title here, the idea that a swipe is something that we’re all familiar with, and that they start to identify, “Yeah, that’s the reason why I don’t finish what I start is because the swiping,” I think it’s just intuitive, and it’s really resonated with people.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Tim Vandehey
SwipeTheBook.com. It has information about the book.

Pete Mockaitis
Shall I steal it?

Tim Vandehey
Yeah, swipe it. Exactly. It’s a command. It’s an imperative. Yeah, SwipeTheBook.com is where you can find reviews. Obviously, the book is on Amazon and so on. Actually, we will be launching a new site here once I finish it, sometime, hopefully, October. So, that’ll have some more goodies on it, I think, a survey and hopefully some videos and some more content.

Tracy Maylett
It has been fun to see the people come up to us, and say, “This was me. This is me. And this has helped.”

Tim Vandehey
Oh, yeah. Everyone I’ve told about this book says, “Oh, I need that,” because I know a lot of writers and musicians, so they’re all artistic flakes to a degree, so.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Tim Vandehey
Well, I would say look at your expectations and look at your motivations. Getting those two things dialed in is critically important, especially expectations. I think people at a job feel motivated by the fact that they don’t do the job, they’ll get fired. But, of course, that just makes someone work just hard enough not to get fired. They don’t necessarily engage. I don’t think people take a good look at their expectations.

By the way, do I get to share my favorite stuff?

Pete Mockaitis
Let’s hear a favorite quote and book, please.

Tim Vandehey
The quote is actually a quote about writing from Stephen King from his book on writing, which is a wonderful treat, it’s on the art of writing. And he says, “Writing talent is like a knife. Some writers are born with God-awful big knives but no writer is born with a sharp knife.” And that’s his way, of course, of saying that talent is one thing, but you don’t get anywhere without a lot of hard work.

Did you ask me about a book?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes, please.

Tim Vandehey
It’s Tom Wolfe’s The Right Stuff. I’ve always thought that’s one of the most brilliant books ever written in the English language. I’m a huge Tom Wolfe fan.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, Tracy, Tim, this has been a treat. I wish you much luck and very few swipes.

Tracy Maylett
Many thanks.

Tim Vandehey
Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.

Pete Mockaitis
Lisa, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Lisa McCarthy
Thank you. Great to be here, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to dig into the wisdom you’ve got for us in your book Fast Forward: 5 Power Principles to Create the Life You Want in Just One Year. Can you share with us any particularly surprising counterintuitive discoveries you made along the way putting this together?

Lisa McCarthy
Well, we had to use our five-power principles because we’re in year 11 of our business, and I guess, as of year one, people kept asking us, “When is the book coming out? When are you going to write the book?” and we’d say, “We’re not doing that yet.” And, finally, two years ago, we threw our hat over the wall, which is one of the expressions we used in the book and in our programs, and we just committed to it even though we didn’t know how, and even though it felt like a mountain.

And just like we share our system in the book, we created a vision and then we just said, “What’s the next step? What’s the next step after that? What’s the next step after that?” and getting to every rung in the mountain, we did it. And what makes the book is the interviews. We interviewed 30 people, 30 graduates, and asked them, “How have the power principles in our system made a difference in your life?” and the stories knocked us out. They just knocked us out and really inspired us about the difference the system has made in so many careers and lives.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s cool. Okay, so then, tell us, what sort of the big idea or main message behind Fast Forward?

Lisa McCarthy
The main message is there is a lot of things that you can’t control. People can’t control the economy, politics. We can’t control other people, even though we’ll continue to try. We can’t control the weather but there are so many things we can control. And this book is all about taking ownership of your future, taking ownership of your career, your business, your life, and what’s important to you.

And most years, we run, and we run, and we run, and we run, and we run, and we run, and then we pass out, and then we go on vacation, and then we do it again. So, this book is all about how do you live your life by envisioning a future that really lights you up. And even if you don’t know how to get there, by getting it on paper and sharing it with other people, anything is possible.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, you have five power principles here. What exactly do we mean by a power principle?

Lisa McCarthy
A power principle is a tangible actionable step to take so that you can create the life you want in one year. And at the end of the book, we talk about Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz, and Glinda says, “You have the power all along,” and that’s what we believe. So, it’s all about harnessing that power and getting intentional about where you want to apply it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And could you give us an example of someone who was not working in accordance with the power principles, and then adopted one, and saw some really cool results?

Lisa McCarthy
Well, the majority of the people that do our program, and really the book is based on a program that we’ve done with over 100,000 people, what all of the companies share in common, whether they’re small, medium, large, whether they’re in the United States or whatever industry they may be in, is that they’re fast-paced, high pressure, and dealing with uncertainty and change. So, that’s what all these companies have in common.

So, when you’re in that kind of workplace, people are reactive, people are focused on, “What do I need to get done by Friday in order to keep my job, get some healthy meals on the table, maybe go to the gym?” And so, that’s where most people are when they get to our program. And they may be crushing it at work and often sacrificing what’s important to them at home. They may be kind of calling it in at work because they feel that that’s what they need to do to keep things all the balls in the air.

And so, the majority of the people we’ve worked with will share that this gave them a system to believe an action on that it is possible to design your whole life, to succeed professionally and personally, and not only in terms of outcomes but also your relationships, the quality of your relationships, how you feel when you go to sleep at night, what you’re known for as friend, and a leader, and a parent.

And so, that happens again and again and again every single week. And when you’re a person that’s in the blender or on the treadmill, as we like to say, this is freedom. This is really believing that you now have the power, and people have gotten promoted, changed their career, gotten married, gotten divorced, had a baby, ran a marathon. Like, that’s what’s possible because when you believe it, you then confidently go in that direction to make it happen.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Can we zoom into one story of a particular person and what they did and what they saw?

Lisa McCarthy
Sure. I recently had an executive in the program that is working in Italy. Here’s one example where she felt that she needed to stay in Italy for her husband’s business. And so, her limiting belief was, “This is it for me. I’m going to manage Italy but I’m not going to be able to move up at my organization.”

And one of the things she got in her bold vision, and working using the structure, was that was a barrier she created for herself, that, particularly, after COVID, there’s different ways to lead, and you don’t have to physically move in many situations. So, she wrote in her bold vision, “One year from today, I’m managing an additional country. My scope has expanded. My people have expanded. I’m making more money.”

And then she read her vision to her manager, and, obviously, that requires vulnerability, but it’s putting it out there, it’s saying, like, “This is what success looks like for me.” And then six months later, when that country manager moved on in Spain, she’s now running Italy and Spain. And she actually said, we’re getting testimonials every week, but she actually said, “My marriage is also so improved, but I’m not going to get into those details in this email.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood.

Lisa McCarthy
That’s one example.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, so what are these five power principles? Can you give us the overview of them?

Lisa McCarthy
Sure. So, the five power principles are in the areas of vision, planning, mindset, and communication because all of those things are things that you can control. So, that’s the focus of the system. The first one is to declare bold vision, which we support people to go a year out. Like, Pete, imagine December of 2024, write down what extraordinary success looks like. And we give people a very tangible actionable seven-question exercise with samples of what a bold vision looks like.

And this is not about fantasy. It’s about committing to things that you would feel so proud and elated to have them be true. And you may not know how to get there, and you could fail, but they’re worth planning for. So, that’s power principle number one. Power principle number two is all about mindset. So, it’s “Choose a new perspective.” And we help you identify disempowering perspectives or stories that we all have, stories about ourselves, stories about other people, stories about your circumstances, your company.

And then if they’re empowering, keep going. Like, “I crushed in that presentation. I’m going to get promoted. I love working with that partnership, the marketing team or the sales team.” But most of the time, people have negative disempowering stories, or often. I don’t want to say most of the time. So, we have people identify the story, then look at the costs. What’s the cost to you of that story? And we have a model that helps you choose a new perspective.

Power principle number three is “Plan the work, and work the plan.” How do we evolve this old vision into an incremental action plan over the next 90 days, where, “If I have a really bad habit, how do I replace it with a good one? What’s going to be different?” Power principle number four is to use language of action. How do you elevate your influence? How do you run a meeting that actually produces an outcome? Because meetings are such a giant pain point. And then, finally, power principle number five is to stop talking, and get curious, which is really game-changing for relationships.

Pete Mockaitis
And then when it comes to choosing a new perspective, can you give us some examples of common perspectives many people have that aren’t serving them very well?

Lisa McCarthy
Sure. So, people say things about themselves, like, “I’m not as smart as my peers.” And what is the cost of that? Because 80% of the universe has impostor syndrome. So, we have this disempowering perspective, “I’m not as smart as these other people.” And there is a high cost to that because you are less inclined to make a recommendation, offer another point of view, so there’s a cost to your self-worth, there’s a cost to your productivity, there’s a cost to your confidence, there’s a cost to your impact.

And you’re busy collecting evidence for, “Oh, my God, I can’t believe what he said. I can’t believe what she said. Like, I can’t articulate an idea in that way.” And when you see the cost of the story, then using our model, can brainstorm other perspectives, such as, like, I’ve seen time and time again, people choose a perspective such as, “I have significant value to contribute,” “I am a very strong asset,” “This team needs me.”

And then you start practicing that and collecting evidence for that, and when you write it down, and you share it out loud with someone else, it makes a meaningful difference. And it’s very important what you say to yourself and what you say to others. So, sometimes people keep disempowering perspectives to ourselves because we’re sabotaging ourselves or we have impostor syndrome as we move up. But other times, there are things, like you have a negative perspective about – this happens often – like the marketing team has a perspective on the sales team, “They don’t get what we do. They don’t appreciate what we do.”

Or, “That executive is incompetent and should be fired.” And you’re collecting evidence for why they should be fired, and the reality is they’re not getting fired. So, there’s a high cost to you, you’re the one that’s going home frustrated. Now you’re complaining to people that can’t make a difference versus taking on a new perspective that, “We need each other to produce the results. It’s up to me to improve this relationship. I really value what they do, and we need it to achieve success.”

So, you’re trying on new stories. And then one about the circumstances, Pete, is most or many people say things like, “There’s not enough hours in the day.” Well, guess what. If you say there’s not enough hours in the day, every day you’re going to feel overwhelmed, and you’re going to be reactive, and you’re going to go to sleep at night exhausted.

However, if you were to choose the perspective, which I do, and we’re always encouraging people in our programs and our company to do, and it’s easier said than done, but just to give you an example since you asked for it, “I have enough time to do what’s important to me.” Now, if I’m looking through that lens, I am going to have to delegate more often at work and at home, I am going to have to say no to things that don’t line up with my vision, and this is possible, I am going to have to decline meetings because I’m going to get thoughtful on Sunday night, “What are the meetings that are really going to be important for me to attend?”

So, those are some of the examples. Choose a new perspective is a game-changing power principle for so many people because we have disempowering perspectives, especially about people, professionally and personally. And many people, and I know you have a slightly younger audience, but as we move up, and we take on more responsibility, and we start families, a lot of people, especially women, have a negative perspective that moving up requires too much sacrifice.

And so, sometimes we’ll choose to stagnate and put a lid on ourselves versus, my own perspective throughout my career, which was, “I’m going to have pressure at every level. I’m going to keep on moving up so I can make more money and delegate.”

Pete Mockaitis

And can you give us some examples of what does this problematic self-talk sound like at times?

Lisa McCarthy
Oh, I’d love to give you an example because everyone has it. So, here we go. “I am so overwhelmed. I can’t believe I said that in a meeting. I’m probably getting fired. Like, I didn’t prepare. I procrastinated. I stayed up till 11:00 o’clock last night watching Netflix, scrolling through Instagram, not doing what I should’ve been doing, and then I said I was going to go to the gym. And, of course, I didn’t go to the gym because I pressed news, and I didn’t have the motivation. This always happens. And I ate all those carbs for breakfast. And I need to call my mother. I’m just such a bad daughter.”

“And I say I want to meet someone but then I don’t even go out on a Friday or Saturday night. And I just lost my temper with my wife, and I have to be more patient. I have to be more patient, and I have to work on my LinkedIn. I have no story. I have to work on my branding but I hate branding, I hate merchandising myself, and I really don’t like networking. And I’m just exhausted.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, so now when you talk about impostor syndrome, or inner critic-type issues, when we hear these words or phrases or dialogue inside our own heads, how do you recommend we manage that?

Lisa McCarthy
I recommend, so we have a whole piece in the book, focus on managing your inner critic. And, ultimately, this is how human beings are wired, so we’re not going to get rid of this. And we’ve had so many people in the program say, “But, wait, my inner critic drives me. This is how I’ve come as far as I have.”

And we actually created a distinction that above the line is productive feedback. Like, if you just did a meeting, or you just did a call, or you just did a presentation, like really looking at what worked, what didn’t work, and, “How could I improve?” That’s productive constructive rationale. But then below the line is this ranting, critical, harsh voice that says things to yourself that you would never say to other people.

And we actually recommend writing it down because when you write it down, you actually see it’s not true. It’s just what you’re saying to yourself over and over and over again. If you have the courage, you would share it with one person that you feel safe with out loud. And their job is not to convince you otherwise. Their job is just to listen because when you say it out loud, it’s like it mitigates the weight of it, the significance. It mitigates the significance.

And a lot of times, sometimes people get emotional, like, “How can I treat myself in this way? Like, that’s not okay.” And then other times, I’ve seen people laugh, like, “This is ridiculous. I would never speak to anyone that I respect in this way, and I’m going to stop speaking to myself.” So, that’s step one. Then we give people other recommendations in the book, like focus on your strengths because, a lot of times, people are not.

And if I were to interview every reader of this book, I know that if they were putting together their LinkedIn, there would be two or three strengths that they could identify. And simple things, and this has been so useful, there are so many people that do our program, is to every night, write down three things that you’re proud of and did well, because most of the times, people go to sleep and they feel exhausted. They’re just, like, scrolling through Instagram or watching episode seven on Netflix, passing out, and thinking about the mountain of work, and everything that they didn’t do.

So, take a moment to really fuel yourself, write down three things that you’re proud of or did well in the last 24 hours, not for your six-month review, but in the last 24 hours because we find what we’re looking for. So, that’s one of your practices every day, like going to the gym, or drinking eight glasses of water. Start looking for what you did well. And if you share it out loud, “For a full year, I would call my sister every night and say, ‘Here’s what I’m really proud of. Here’s where I really crushed it today.’”

And, obviously, if you had a crappy day, like you’re not going to fake it, but if you’re taking on that practice, and I recommend every single listener does that, immediate shift.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And I’m also curious, when it comes to working with other people, you recommend we share our goals with others. Can you expand upon that, sort of like the benefits and how we can go about doing that well?

Lisa McCarthy
Yeah. Well, first off, research shows that when you write things down, I think the number is 60% more likely to happen based on one of the studies we used. And then if you share it out loud, that number goes up by 25%. So, most people are goal-setting in a very safe, vague way because their manager told them to.

So, you have to put X number of goals in the system. Sometimes people never look at them again, but there are some companies that are very rigorous about, “Put your goals in the system. We’re going to evaluate you twice a year. We’re going to do calibrations to see who gets promoted.” Companies differ in their approach.

But let’s hope that people are putting down a few goals every year, professionally and personally. We recommend a much more rigorous approach because, instead of setting safe, predictable goals that you know how to achieve so that you look good, we’re actually proposing that you throw your hat over the wall. You could get to a big wall, and you say, “Okay, I’m just going for this, and I could fail, and I may not get all the way there, but I’m going to get further because I went for it, and I dreamed big.”

And instead of keeping your ambitions and your dreams to yourself, and then under-promising and over-delivering, or not saying out loud what you, “I’d love to be in a meaningful relationship,” or, “I’d love to be healthy and lose 10 pounds,” or, “Really, I want to get promoted. I want to get a new job in my company,” or, “Leave my company.”

If you write it down, as if it’s already happened, even if you don’t know how, that’s the whole game. And then if you share it out loud, like, pretend, “Pete, 12 months from now, I’m sitting at lunch with you, this year was awesome. This year was awesome. Let me share what happened and what is happening, what I achieved and how I feel, and the quality of my relationships,” and that’s the whole game.

That’s what I recommend that people write down a bold vision that’s specific, that’s measurable, that’s vivid, that has you feel inspired and uncomfortable, and then you share it with at least one other person, which is going to require vulnerability and courage and it’s worth it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And in this language that we’re using, internally and with others, and in meetings, and in sharing our goals, I’m curious, are there any particular keywords or phrases you recommend folks use, you love, or words and phrases you recommend folks lose, like they’re problematic and no good for us?

Lisa McCarthy
Well, one of the biggest mantras that’s come out, I don’t know if it’s a mantra, but the first question our bold vision exercise is, “What are you known for?” And most people that are doing, doing, doing, doing, doing are not focused on who they’re being. So, I tell a story that’s true for me, that people, when I was in my 30s especially, I was known for being busy. And the reason I was known for being really busy is people said, “How are you?” I would say, “I’m really busy” in an intense way.

And as a result of that, you can imagine, like, nobody was coming to me with the big idea, nobody was inviting me to things, and I was not accessible, and not present. So, when I did my own personal/professional development work way back in my 30s, and I’m now 56, I realized that that was not okay with me. So, I said, “I am no longer using the busy word.” And guess what? I’m not using the stressed word, and I’m not using the tired word.

So, we have a big sticker in our program that says, “BTS” with a line through it, and it’s not “Back to school,” and it’s not the Asian pop band. It’s “Stop using the words busy, tired, stressed.” And now, if you were to say to me, “Lisa, I know you’re really busy,” I’d say, “I’m not busy. I have enough time to do what’s important to me.” I would say, “I’m in demand or overly fulfilled.” I have my new language to replace that old language.

So, thousands of people are no longer using the B word, and you get to choose your language. Again, back to what you can’t control and what you can control, and there’s days when there’s disappointment. So, I’m not saying, “Don’t feel disappointment. Don’t feel sad,” and all of us, at certain points in our career and in our life, have situations that we really wish were different. But even then, you can choose your outlook. You can say things to yourself, like, “I’m going to be stronger from this challenge or situation, and the future, like everything is going to be okay.”

So, I just think the mantras really make a difference. You can fuel yourself, and so that’s one example of no longer using the B word. And I think in terms of mantras of what people can do, throw your hat over the wall. And that means, when you get to, like, a big wall, which means any challenge or any ambition and dream that you don’t know how to accomplish, throw your hat over, say, “This is happening. This already happened,” because human beings are creative and resourceful, and we will find other people and the strength and creativity within ourselves to make it happen.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Lisa, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Lisa McCarthy
I want to tell people to go get our book and get the system. And write a bold vision and not procrastinate, like get their bold vision on paper, follow, it’s a very simple actionable exercise. Read it out loud, and then use the other four power principles to make it happen, to really create the life you want, not the life that you should have, or other people think you should have, but the life that you would really feel so proud and happy to say it’s yours a year from today.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Lisa McCarthy
I love Abraham Lincoln’s quote, “It’s not the years in your life,” in the end, it’s not the years in your life, “It’s the life in your years.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Lisa McCarthy
I love autobiographies, so my favorite two, even though you asked for one, but my favorite two in the last year were All In by Billie Jean King, an icon in our country. And I love Open which is by Andre Agassi.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Lisa McCarthy
Besides Fast Forward, which I use the power principles often, particularly for my own challenges, there is a model I use, which the Harvard Business School share, I have an article from 2015, which is all about debriefing. It’s from the military but we can apply it in any business, and it’s about constantly looking at what actually happened and taking your emotion out of it, and what did we wanted it to look like, what did it look like, and how can we use that learning to have the future be different than the past.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Lisa McCarthy
Yoga.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often, they re-tweet it, they Kindle book highlight it?

Lisa McCarthy
Language creates reality.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Lisa McCarthy
Our website, FastForwardGroup.net, and my email, which I don’t always go out, but always happy to hear from people that want to create the life they want, lisa@fastforwardgroup.net.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Lisa McCarthy
I absolutely do. Do not settle. You have one life to live. Create your bold vision. Share it out loud. And make it happen.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Lisa, this has been a treat. I wish you much luck in fast-forwarding.

Lisa McCarthy
Thank you. Great to be here, Pete. It was awesome.