KF #3. Manages Ambiguity Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Frederik, welcome!

Frederik Pferdt
Thank you so much for having me, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m excited to have you. I could tell that you are a big thinker, and you think about things a little bit differently, so no pressure, but I have a feeling we’re going to get into lots of fun, fresh perspectives from you.

Frederik Pferdt
Wonderful, yeah. But, you’re right, I hope to think differently about many things, and that gives many people, hopefully, a different perspective.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, could you kick us off with maybe an extra fascinating and surprising discovery you’ve made as you were researching and putting together your book, What’s Next is Now?

Frederik Pferdt
The one thing that I really took away is that the future is not something that happens to us, but the future is something that we create. And so, actually, the starting point of my book was that I left probably one of the best jobs that you can have in a very fascinating company and organization, to really dive into the unexpected and to the unknown.

And so, I wanted to actually practice myself, really, how to live future-ready and that whatever comes next is actually mostly in your control, and that you can choose what you’re going to engage in moving forward. And so, that was, for me, something I really try to focus on and that led me to some interesting discoveries.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s very intriguing. Let’s dig in. That’s kind of a provocative assertion there in terms of we have much control over what our future is. And so, some might say, “Well, hey, Frederick, I have no control over whether AI, robots, go and are marching in the streets and doing all kinds of activities, or whether we interact with 3D hologram future things instead of a platform like a Zoom or whatever right now.” So, what do you mean exactly in terms of we shape the future?

Frederik Pferdt
So, you’re absolutely right. All the things you just mentioned might happen or might not happen, but that’s a future that you just imagined. That has a lot to do with robots and AI and technology, and probably most of these things being out of your control. But what’s in your control is how you are going to be in that future. Are you going to be a Pete that is more curious, more kind, more open, more empathetic, more loving?

And we can go on using specific qualities that you probably want to see happening in your future, and that’s totally in your control. I can show up tomorrow, in my future, being more kind. I can show up the next year with my partner, my family, my community, my colleagues, whatever it is, be more open, more curious. And I think that’s what I feel is also the future, and it’s mostly your future. So, again, what I want to do is help people to move away from these descriptions of the future which is mostly the outside world.

That is trends or it’s events or it’s technologies, whatever that is, and moving towards the future that is inside us, which is the qualities that we actually want to see happening in our lives. Because there’s also one interesting thing is that, whenever our life will end, what will others remember about you, about the Pete they got to know? And it’s mostly probably these qualities that you’ve built over the years, over your life, and how you showed up every time with other people. So that’s the future I want to talk about.

Pete Mockaitis
And is it fair to say, with regard to these interior qualities and experiences, that in some ways, we will have and experience those things regardless of what technologies do or don’t proliferate in our midst?

Frederik Pferdt
Absolutely. So, if you show up more open and more curious and like to experiment tomorrow in regards to, let’s say, AI or a technology, then what I can guarantee is that you’re going to see more opportunities. You’re going to see an opportunity to find something out, to learn something, to grow in some form or some way. So that’s what I think is in your control. You’re not controlling the AI or the technology, right, that is built by a company or by a team of people or by someone else. That technology is, again, what I consider the outer world, and that is something you can respond to.

But you can respond in a way to these, let’s say, technologies, where you show up being curious, ask questions about it. You can show up and experiment with it, give it a try and see what you can learn from it, and that’s totally in your control. And I think that’s something where I want to help people to shift their focus on and think maybe differently about.

Pete Mockaitis
That sounds lovely. Well, tell us, is that how you would articulate the main idea or core thesis of your book What’s Next Is Now or is that but one facet of it?

Frederik Pferdt
It’s one facet of it, yes. And the general idea about What’s Next Is Now is that the future is not something that happens to us, it’s something we make happen. Where I want to argue that when we embrace qualities like optimism, openness, curiosity, experimentation, empathy, which are, for me, dimensions of a what I call a future-ready mind state, when we embrace these qualities, we can navigate uncertainty and turn it into an opportunity.

What it means that when we try to really approach the future in a way that we don’t ask “What will the future bring?” and have a passive stance, but have a more active stance and say, like, “What is the future that I want to create?” we can embrace those deeply human qualities, show up more optimistic, more open, more curious, and so forth, to really see more opportunities in the future as well. And what it does is it gives you more opportunities. And who doesn’t like more opportunities? And the second thing, what it gives you, a little bit more control over your future.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, let’s run through this lineup here, this mindset – optimistic, open, curious. What else composes this future-ready mindset?

Frederik Pferdt
The first thing is that it’s not a mindset, it’s a mind state, which is maybe for some, small, but for me it’s a big distinction. I love the work that has been done around mindsets. I think it’s a very important message that Carol Dweck and her team put out into the world around a fixed mindset and a growth mindset. I think we are mostly familiar with that. 

What’s interesting is that people refer to a mindset as something that is based on their belief system, on their values, on their past experiences, and it’s something deeply ingrained in us. But how often, to be honest, Pete, if I would ask you, “Hey, change your mindset to an entrepreneurial mindset, a success mindset, a future mindset,” whatever it is, how often could you actually change that mindset? It’s probably not that often because it’s really hard to change.

And so, I wanted to help people to have access to something that is more short-term, that is actually something they have control over, and that is more dynamic. That’s a mind state for me. So, it’s the moment-to-moment perception that you have around how you experience the present. And that is something that you totally can control and change and shift from time to time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. So, a mind state is maybe more analogous to a mood or groove or headspace zone that you’re in in a given moment.

Frederik Pferdt
I like the words that you’re using to describe that, yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, within the mind state, what were those ingredients that you suggest are future-ready?

Frederik Pferdt
So, the dimensions that help you to see more opportunities in your future are optimism, openness, curiosity, experimentation, and empathy, and there’s a sixth dimension which is called dimension X. So, it’s not a framework and it’s not like a theory where you have to either apply those to your life one by one throughout the day. It’s more, like, what I want to help people to realize is that the good news is that we all have these deeply human qualities.

We are sometimes open, we are sometimes curious and ask questions, and, yeah, sometimes even we like to experiment with something new. What I want to help people to understand is, like, as soon as we dial those up, that we are radically optimistic, unreserved open, compulsive curious, that means that we actually see more opportunities, and we are able to, again, control that. We can train our minds to do those things more often, and that is something very powerful that really leads to what I would consider a better future for you.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and that adds up and it really feels so right in terms of my own experience. Like, there are times and days and moments where I am all of those things. And there are times when I’m the opposite, and it’s like, “It’s all bull crap!” And it’s like, “What’s the use?” is just kind of the opposite of that mind state. And, sure enough, being in the former state is more conducive to identifying opportunities than being in the latter state.

So, tell us then, if that sounds nice, we would like to have more of these things. I mean, they just feel better anyway, it’s just a more enjoyable place to be, to have these things going on internally, how might we do a shift if we’re having one of those days where we’re not too curious, and we’re not too empathetic, we’re not too optimistic? How do we conjure or drum that up or get to that spot?

Frederik Pferdt
First of all, I like that you label them as being nice. It’s a nice to have.

Pete Mockaitis
It feels great, yeah.

Frederik Pferdt
And that they feel great. I think it’s more than that. It’s essential. It’s something that, really, when you are in that state and saying, like, you wake up and you feel like the future is out of your control, and you feel negative, and you even have fear or anxiety that sometimes show up because, again, our minds tend to dislike uncertainty, and the future by definition is uncertain.

So, our minds try to protect us and go towards finding all the reasons why you should not get out of bed in the first place, why you probably should make a plan, or be negative about something, or not pursue an opportunity or open a door to something new that you haven’t explored, or ask a question. All of those things are usually not what your mind recommends you.

But I think we can overcome that, and we can trick our mind to say, “Hey, what about if I’m now curious and just ask a question to my co-worker, my colleague, my CEO, whoever that might be, or even my partner or my children? And I follow that curiosity maybe with a practice around asking five whys to go to the root cause of something that I want to find out.” That also immediately opens up opportunities for you.

And there’s many more practices that we can do that really helps you to overcome this first initial reaction that we usually have to new situations or towards the future, which is being a little bit more negative, being a little bit more closed, not being curious, and definitely not experimenting with anything new. And then empathy, we’re just going to throw out of the window because we want to focus on ourselves first.

So, what I want to help people to do is overcome these to really, as you said, see more opportunities. And who doesn’t like to see more opportunities in their future so that we move away from this relationship that most people have now with a future that is, or it’s going to be decided by someone else, it’s not going to be great, and “I don’t have any control over it and I have fear or anxiety about the future”?

Which is, when you ask most people why they actually want to stay with the status quo or even bring the past back, and that is something fascinating that I had in so many conversations where people said like, “Yeah, Frederik, you’re talking just about the future, never about the past.” And I said, “Yeah, because the past is something you can’t change, it already happened. And I think, and I have a deep belief that the future is going to be better. And why not then focus purely on the future and trying to discover what you can actually control about it?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’d love to dig into some of the particulars of these practices, like the five whys. But maybe, first, could you share with us a story of someone who was able to make some of these shifts, they were feeling not so optimistic, open, curious, experiment-y, empathetic, and then they took some actions and saw something of a transformation?

Frederik Pferdt
Yes, there’s many stories. I actually feature 14 people in the book, I call them future-readies. It’s people I’ve been able to coach, train, and work with at Google over the years, and those people have just built some remarkable futures for themselves, not in terms of materialistic. Most people think like, “Oh, it’s the billionaire,” or whatever it is. No, it’s people who live a happy life, who have impact in what they’re doing, who feel that they contribute to society in a very meaningful way. And I think those are things that we all can achieve.

So, I share stories about those people and how they show up more optimistic again and they live a very open life. For example, Adam Leonard, a wonderful human being, who practices something in his life that I think we can all draw some inspiration from. And he does what he calls improv hiking trips, and it’s inspired by improv theater. Improv theater is something where you basically, you know, you open up, and whatever is going to be thrown at you, you’re trying to accept and build on.

So, he goes on extended hiking trips, like three or four months without any plan, without any set schedule, any journey where he wants to go, he basically just starts, he starts somewhere. And what he reports back all the time is that, by being open and purely open, where he doesn’t have a plan, no reservations, just his pure curiosity and openness to whatever the journey brings, he comes back with wonderful stories and things that not just happened to him but, also, he could have made happen.

And I think that’s an approach that we all can use, not just in our life but in our work, in how we do vacations, and so forth. And inspired by that, I’m actually taking my family all the time on road trips where we don’t have a plan. There is only one rule that we couldn’t go back to the same place twice, and it’s really hard in the beginning to convince the family members to go on that trip because you don’t know where you’re going to end up. So, it’s really hard to sell.

But whenever we do it, whenever we come back, everybody is super happy and super satisfied because everybody discovered something new. Everybody was growing in a beautiful way. So that’s just one of the stories of a future-ready that I’d like to share.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And so then, thinking about being awesome at your job, I mean, that sounds fun. We go on trips just to see what happens, and what do you know? We have some surprising, delightful things that unfolded as a result. Can you draw the link, the connection, from that to “And now we are flourishing in our careers as well”?

Frederik Pferdt
Absolutely. I think that’s an approach that you can also take into your work, being a little bit more open around perspectives other people are having or ideas that are presented to you. Instead of going with a clear no in the first place, and saying, like, “Whatever idea is going to be shared with me, I’m just going to say no because that’s the safest thing to do. I don’t have to get engaged. I don’t have to do something with that idea,” and so forth.

Try to go with a “Yes” or even a “Yes, and.” That helps you to engage in an idea or a perspective and helps you to build on it and make it bigger, better, faster, whatever it is, and give it a try and then see what happens. And most of the time what happens is that there’s a new opportunity actually arising in your work or in a project or in your job.

And so, to give you an example, when you consider how most organizations probably operate, is that there is a manager or a boss in some form or some way, who maybe sits in an office, and then the team or the employees, they sometimes have ideas, great ideas that they want to share with their boss or their manager to ask for permission to pursue this idea.

And then most of the time what happens immediately is that the manager’s brain starts to generate all these reasons why we should not pursue this idea, “It’s too expensive,” “We don’t have time,” “We don’t have the resources for it,” “We don’t know if it’s going to work out, if it’s going to get to the results that we want to see happening,” and so forth.

So, the manager will actually share as many reasons as possible to not pursue this idea, the safest thing to do, because then you don’t take any risk. What happens with the employee is that they are a little bit disappointed maybe, they leave the office, and what they do is they tell everybody else, like, “Don’t go into this office because your idea is going to be crushed. There’s going to be only arguments why your idea would not work.”

So, what you could do instead is try a “Yes” approach, a “Yes, and” approach. As a manager, whatever idea you’re listening to, accept it, build on it, make it bigger, better, and faster, and say like, “Fantastic! I like your idea. Here are some reasons why we should do it. Here are 30 days you have, some resources in terms of like another team member that might work with you on this idea. Go try it out.”

And what happens then is the employee leaves very happy, the office, tells everyone like, “In this office, the ideas will grow,” and, at the same time, they will try this idea and try to make it work to then maybe come back after 30 days with two options. The first one is they will report back and say, “Sorry, didn’t work out. Total failure.” Or they come back and say like, “Yeah, it worked out. We have a new technology, new process, new customer base,” whatever it is.

And the managers respond, should be in both scenarios, to say, “Fantastic! Thank you. What did you learn?” Because what just happened now is that they helped to learn something new, that the individual, the employee grew, the organization grew by these learnings and so forth. And I think that’s one of the examples where you can apply this principle of being open, saying yes, trying to build on other people’s ideas that really will drive towards more opportunities and to better results as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I like that perspective a lot. And I think that takes a little bit of a practice and discipline because our default reaction is, “Oh, no! What happened? Why? Ahh.” It’s not the most natural, intuitive response to say “Fantastic!” when the result is not that which you had hoped for.

Frederik Pferdt
Exactly, because the only result that we want to see is that people are learning and growing because that leads to whatever success you want to see happening, and it leads to progress. And so, it’s just a simple shift that you need to make from “No, but” to “Yes, and” from “Oh, no, this project screwed up,” or, “You screwed up the project,” to “Fantastic! What did you learn?” to that curiosity that really leads to understand what actually happened, and what others can learn from that, too.

And these are small shifts that everybody can, I think, apply and use not just in their work but also in their lives. And just imagine if you say yes to more ideas that are presented to you in your life, I think you’re going to see more and more opportunities that are happening.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we got the “Yes, and,” we’ve got the taking trips with no plan, seeing what happens, the “Fantastic! What did you learn?” response. Any other top practices that you think make a world of difference in becoming future-ready?

Frederik Pferdt
One of the biggest one for me, I think, is reframing. And reframing is such a powerful way to live your life. Where, to give you an example, like when the pandemic hit, I was tasked to lead a project called Project Reimagine for Google, where we try to reimagine how we work as an organization. And I gathered about 26 leaders for about six weeks, and what we tried to do is to reframe. How can we reframe, for example, that employees said that they now have to work from home, towards “I can work from home”?

That is a simple reframe that, for a lot of people, did something magical, because then they felt like, “Oh, I’m not forced because of the pandemic to work from home, but I see this as an opportunity now. I see this as an opportunity to be able to work from home.” And that slight reframe helps you to, again, see more opportunities in maybe working from home. And you can go beyond that where you say, like, “I can work from home, but I also can work from anywhere.”

This is another reframe that helps you to open up towards the possibilities that a pandemic might actually bring to you. Where in the first place, you only see the negative, you only see the constraints, you only see the things that you’re not able to do anymore, but with a reframe you turn towards the opportunities. And reframing is such a powerful way that, again, you can do with a reframe from a “No, but” to a “Yes, and”, but you also can do from a “I cannot” or “I have to work from home” towards “I can work from home,” which is a reframe around your work.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that is lovely because you see where that opens up for people. Some folks said, “Well, hey, guess what? Now I am doing my work on a boat and the family is on a boat. That’s what we’re doing.” Or, “Now we are in a little RV and we are camping all over the United States. Woo-hoo!” And it seems almost wild, like, “What?” It’s almost like it didn’t even occur to us that that was possible or allowed to do that. It’s like, “Oh, I guess we could all do that. Huh, how about it?”

Frederik Pferdt
Absolutely, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
I see. Okay, reframing. All right, keep them coming. Frederik, what else we got?

Frederik Pferdt
Let’s consider empathy, right, as something where we always thought like empathy is something that drains me. I have to put myself into other people’s shoes and really understand what they need, and sometimes that’s hard, absolutely. But what I’m arguing for is expansive empathy. For example, that you also can have empathy towards your future self, which for me is a fascinating concept.

If we imagine ourselves in the future, most of us would go to that picture of having a nicer car, a bigger house, a better relationship, being successful at work, whatever it is. But for me, empathizing with your future self means, first, that you’re trying to imagine how you want to be in the future, and then we’re coming back to these qualities around “Hey, I want to be more kind, for example, in the future.”

And if I am imagining myself being more kind in the workplace, in my family, with my friends and so forth, and you’re picturing that future, and you’re trying to make that visual really vivid and come alive every day, you’re guaranteed to actually move towards that future. And there’s some fascinating research going on at Stanford University where they actually showed some students pictures of their older versions of themselves.

So, they put VR headsets on the students, they projected their older versions of themselves, let’s say, like in 20 or 30 years from today, and they helped them to really empathize with their future selves, to really understand, “Hey, how do I feel in this future? How do I look? Who am I going to be surrounded by?” and so forth. And the more that people empathized with their future selves, the more they change their behavior in the right here and right now.

Which meant that most students reported back that they will actually put twice the amount into their retirement funds right now, plus they will start to live a more healthier lifestyle right now. Which means that, as soon as you create a clear vision of your future self, you actually change your behavior in the right here and right now. And, for me, that’s something very powerful when we think about empathy, not just about empathy for others, but empathy for our future selves.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, now you said the word “interact” and VR headsets, so I mean I’ve seen how you can sort of age, progress a photo. It’s like, “Oh, that’s what I might look like when I’m 70. Okay.” But when you say “interact” in VR headset, so it’s like is the age itself speaking back to me?

Frederik Pferdt
The beautiful thing is that we don’t need any technology for that. We have a mind that is capable of imagining, and if we’re using it in a way that we imagine our future selves, not just, again, in these ways that we’d say like, “Oh, I want to be more successful,” or, “I want to have more money or a bigger house,” whatever it is, but imagining your future selves as with these deeper human qualities, then doing that more often is a practice. It’s something we can train ourselves in.

And the research is very clear. The better we get at it, the more changes we will make to our life and lifestyle right here, right now. And I think that’s very compelling, because everybody wants probably to live a healthier lifestyle. They want to probably live a better life in the future and so forth. But don’t start with the materialistic things or the things that are out of your control. Start with what’s in your control, which is the deeply human qualities that you want to develop and grow towards.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s powerful. I’m also thinking about Peter Attia’s book, Outlive, in this context in which he says, “I’m training for the centenarian decathlon,” which is a lot of syllables, but just the notion of, “When I’m a hundred years old, or in the last years of my life, what would I like to still be able to do? And, oh, if that is what I want to still be able to do, then I better build some strength right now, knowing that some of it will fade in my final years.”

So, it’s intriguing. So just as imagining that leads to, “Oh, I better do some more retirement saving, okay” it may also lead to, “Oh, I better do some more exercising.” And then any number of positive things that need to unfold starting now for then.

Frederik Pferdt
Absolutely. So, what would be something for you, Pete?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, it’s funny, I’m thinking about, well, I was thinking about exercise in particular. And so, just thinking about, as I have some family who’s aging and experiencing some health things. It’s clear that this comes for all of us. And so, to the extent we want to have truly good mobility and functionality, like there’s just some physical stuff to be done in terms of strength and cardio stuff.

And so, that’s just very, in a way that’s a little bit shallow, it’s like, “Yep, that’s just biological reality, true.” But when you talk about kindness, you know, that’s intriguing because there’s not as clear or well-researched a path and protocol that I’m aware of that is like, “This is the tried-and-true means of getting kindness gains the way there is muscle gains.”

And so, we could do a loving-kindness meditation, we could engage in prayer and spiritual practices and connecting with a source of eternal, infinite love. That sounds like a winning move, but in some ways, it’s a big question that I was like, “How does one, in fact, cultivate these traits we would like our future selves to have?” And there’s many, many potential options, and perhaps less of a prescriptive “This is known science knowledge base to draw from.” Or maybe I’m underestimating what’s already available in the research base. Frederik, lay it on me.

Frederik Pferdt
Yes, I think there’s many things that we can learn from, and it could be simpler things around kindness practices that are not just leaving you on a path, or leading you on a path towards maybe happiness. But it’s also interesting that if you show up more kind to other people, you’re building your community of friends.

And there’s fascinating research now from Harvard around the longest study of happiness and longevity, which basically just tells you that the more friends and the better friends you have, the longer and the more happier life you have. So that means the quantity and the quality of your connections really matters.

And so, for me, it comes down to the question, “How do you build more relationships and better relationships?” And kindness is probably a great way to start. If you start with anger and, like, hatred, I’m not sure if that’s going to increase your friendships and if it’s going to be making your friendships even stronger. I think it’s the opposite.

So, starting with a couple of kind things that you can do to your friends or to strangers will actually increase your community. And so, the more friends you have and the better these relationships are, the longer you live and the happier life you live. And I think that’s very compelling research that is building on something you said, which is like we can physically train ourselves for the future to be physically fit, but we can also mentally train ourselves to be mentally fit for the future.

And then we can also train ourselves to be what’s probably like more towards the heart and spirit around the future. And I think all three are very important, but we sometimes just neglect all of those, and we are focusing on the futures that we think are going to be dictated by robots and technology and other things that are shared in the news, and mostly with dystopian future images that are shared around globally and widely.

And it’s fascinating for me that our brains just love to see those dystopian futures, again, like to protect us, and say like, “Oh, I don’t want to have that future happening.” I think it’s going to be a wonderful future. It’s going to be a better future if you’re going to engage in training your mind, training your body, but also training your soul for the future.

And there’s very easy things that we can all do moment by moment on a daily basis that really come back to these notions of being more optimistic, more open, more curious, experiment a little bit more with different approaches but also show empathy, not just for others but of ourselves as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, beautiful. Thank you, Frederik. Now tell me about some of your favorite things. Could you give us a favorite quote?

Frederik Pferdt
One I really find profound for myself that really influenced my thinking is from Anais Nin, who said, “We don’t see the world as it is. We see the world as we are.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Frederik Pferdt
I don’t know if it’s a tool, but I found that meditation, for me, is a practice that is so fascinating because just experimenting with it and giving it a try has a profound impact on my life and who I am, and so I want that others explore that too.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a particular nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks?

Frederik Pferdt
The future is something that you create, and it starts with your choices, and it starts in your mind. So that’s one of the core principles that I want to help people to understand, that the future is not decided by something else or someone else.

It’s created by you in every moment, and it starts with the choices you make, and it starts in your mind. And you have influence over your choices and you have influence over your mind. And so, I think the powerful message here is that everybody has the ability to really shape the future they want to see happening.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Frederik Pferdt
Yeah, you can find me anywhere on your favorite platforms. I also have what I call a NextLetter that helps you to engage in experiments, and I share stories of individuals that live future-ready, and it comes every second Friday. It’s for free and you can sign up. You can find it with my name and NextLetter. Feel free to join that community.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome about their jobs?

Frederik Pferdt
The next time you feel like a “No” or a “Yes, but” to something that is an idea or perspective of someone, try to reframe that towards a “Yes” or a “Yes, and” and see what it does to you. 

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Frederik, thank you. This has been fun. I wish you much good stuff next.

Frederik Pferdt
Thank you so much, Pete. Yes, see you in the future.

Pete Mockaitis
Maggie, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Maggie Jackson
Oh, wonderful to be with you, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to hear about your wisdom you’ve put forth in your book, Uncertain: The Wisdom and Wonder of Being Unsure. But first, I need to hear about you swimming in the Atlantic Ocean almost every day. What’s the story here?

Maggie Jackson
Well, it’s a pandemic story. I used to be a pool swimmer, and I’ve increasingly loved swimming the older I’ve gotten. And then I moved out to the countryside in Rhode Island from New York City during the pandemic, and got kind of really into swimming all the time in the ocean, increasingly in the fall, and then all winter, and spring. I absolutely love it. Being there at dawn, it’s beautiful and feels a whole exercise you can’t beat.

But then it’s sort of interesting because it also offers a great deal, kind of a daily dose of uncertainty. So, I finally began to realize that part of the joy and the daunting nature of what I’m doing is that swimming is never the same twice. When you’re open water, four seasons swimming, it’s never the same twice. So, it’s a great little lesson in uncertainty.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. That’s cool. And I have recently been getting into cold water immersion. Fun things. And I’m thinking, wow, fall and winter, you’re getting that in spades. You know what the temperature in the water is like during these times?

Maggie Jackson
Oh, yes. Yes, we all keep track of the temperature quite carefully because I do wear some gear, so I adjust my gear. But the temperature is about the low is 36 Fahrenheit.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Maggie Jackson
And a lot depends on it could be 20 Fahrenheit in air, and it can be the wind, and then you can be in the snow. It’s all really beautiful and it’s just so much fun. And they’re now doing studies, trying to augment people’s kind of understanding or capability with uncertainty in order to boost resilience. So, we could talk about that. But that, I feel as though, I’ve gained resilience by doing this.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, is it your experience, as it is mine, that just the sheer cold alone is invigorating and mood-boosting over the long term?

Maggie Jackson
Exactly. I find that the colder it is, the more joyful it is. The deep dark winter when my little band of swimmers is going at it, we’re actually laughing out loud and sort of hooting and hollering, and I find that the summer is beautiful, it’s relaxing, it’s wonderful, but it’s not quite as exhilarating. So, it completely represents what we might call good stress.

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely. Well, now let’s hear a little bit about uncertainty in your book Uncertain: The Wisdom and Wonder of Being Unsure. Have you encountered any particularly surprising, or extra-fascinating, or counterintuitive discoveries about us humans and uncertainty while putting this together?

Maggie Jackson
Sure. A long list of surprising discoveries related to uncertainty. We mostly think of uncertainty as being, what psychologists call aversive. We don’t like it. Humans don’t like it. And there’s a reason for that. We’re naturally made to survive by getting answers. Like, we can’t exist in the state of not knowing. However, it’s really interesting because when humans encounter something new, it might be your first day at the job, it might be a six-month roadblock on your highway and you got to adjust, you actually undergo all of these kinds of stress changes in your body.

You might sweat a little, your heart might race, but at the same time, there are changes in the brain that are extremely beneficial when you are in this uncertain, this unsettling state of uncertainty. Actually, your working memory is bolstered, your focus broadens, the brain is more receptive to new information, so you’re basically on your toes. So, what seems unsettling and sort of this uncertainty that we dislike is actually priming us to be able to learn.

So, as one neuroscientist told me, “When you’re in that moment of so-called arousal due to uncertainty, the brain is telling itself there’s something to be learned here.” And so, I think it’s really important on the job, or on the restive life, not to squander that moment. Move forward into uncertainty. Don’t run from it or deny it or hide it. I think it’s really important that we don’t cut short that opportunity to learn that uncertainty offers.

Pete Mockaitis
So, we are more able to learn with these sorts of emotional stress response things going on, and that just sort of fits. It makes sense because, well, yes, there’s something that needs learning here because, by definition, it’s uncertain what’s going on.

Maggie Jackson
Yup, you walk into the meeting and there’s a surprise, or your boss hands you a project you didn’t really think you’re going to have to do. And it’s not emotion, really. It’s cognition. So, your brain is actually going on alert. It’s being aroused, as scientists say. And that puts you in a state where you can take advantage of that.

And so, I think the myth-busting one we have to do first about uncertainty is to realize that uncertainty is unsettling, yes, but that is its precise gift. It bumps us off the routine. It’s telling us. When you’re uncertain, that’s basically your brain telling you that you have to stop your automatic behavior. The status quo doesn’t work anymore. You’ve got to be ready to update your understanding of the world.

Pete Mockaitis
And what’s interesting is you say that we tend to not like uncertainty, and yet there are some contexts where we, humans, proactively go for it. We want to play card games, or videogames, or go to the casino, and that’s the whole draw of these things, is we don’t quite know how things are going to turn out. There’s an element of chance.

Maggie Jackson
Oh, I think that’s a very, very good point. It’s sort of uncertainty by another name. We might call it suspense, or just the kind of not knowing that’s playful or entertainment form that, I think, as uncertainty has grown, or I would say unpredictability in the world has grown, and, really, studies do show that economics, business world, climate, etc., there are a lot of aspects of the life that are more volatile. Uncertainty has become kind of a lament. You see it in the headlines. You hear people talk about it.

People just equate uncertainty with something bad. And that’s not moving us forward. That’s actually keeping us. Uncertainty is not the paralysis that we think. The human uncertainty, the unsureness, the not knowing, it’s not that all, as research shows. It’s actually something that’s highly dynamic and active, and something that moves us forward. Uncertainty is a lot more than we know.

And, actually, for decades and decades, this state of mind, it’s a mindset, basically, wasn’t studied. It wasn’t studied even in psychology because the onus and the emphasis was on what the human can do, what’s the task that you accomplish. It’s not sort of in between time when people are pausing and unsure, or they don’t know what to do. The scientists wanted to study what they could get accomplished.

And so, I think this puts human thinking, and even what it means to know what it means to be successful, it puts it in a whole new plane because if we can add not knowing to our skillset, as well as knowing, well, we’re suddenly really opening up to the world in ways that we weren’t.

Pete Mockaitis
Intriguing. So, not knowing as a skillset that benefits us. Could you perhaps give us a story, an example, of someone who upgraded that skill and saw cool results as a result?

Maggie Jackson
Yeah, I’ll give you a couple of stories, but one little story came from a friend of mine who was calling me up, and saying, “Oh, there’s a merger and acquisition at my pharmaceutical company,” and she’s a scientist, and she was moaning and groaning. And in the next breath, she was talking about how she’s brushing up her resume, and she’s looking around for an internal job.

And I was sort of amused inside, having been steeped in uncertainty research, so I realized that she was actually doing precisely what, through her uncertainty, she was actually taking hold of the situation, and she was propelled to investigate further. And you can see this in many, many great figures. Martin Luther King’s “I have a dream” speech was basically borne of uncertainty. He was a leader who was very humble. He wasn’t opposed to saying, “I don’t know,” and he really led the movement through conviction but also with adaptability.

And when it came to that incredibly important speech that day in 1963, The March on Washington, first of all, he had asked for opinions from many, many advisers. The night of the speech, he didn’t know quite what he would say. He had elements but he didn’t really know. He was actually still working on the speech right up on the podium that day.

And what that shows is that he was in tuned with a very divisive, very difficult moment in history. He was wakeful to all the different influences and patterns and sort of things that were going on in that moment, and he, of course, pulled off one of the greatest speeches of all time.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Let’s have another example.

Maggie Jackson
Well, I would say a more modern example is I’ve been studying the work style of the new Nobel Prize winner in medicine, the co-winner, Kati Kariko, who was originally from Hungary, and she worked for decades on mRNA, which, of course, was the sort of her work on mRNA led to the breakthrough that gave us the COVID vaccines and saved hundreds of millions of lives perhaps.

And she was incredibly dogged and incredibly persistent, and she saw the capacity of this aspect of biology when no one else was. She was terminated from UPenn, but this is not just a story of persistence. As she puts it in one Nobel Prize interview, one of her coworkers said, “Oh, Kati, you’re always zigzagging.” In other words, she didn’t always work in a straight line. And she said, “By zigzagging, I learned so much.”

And this is what it means to inhabit uncertainty. You’re not shutting down on that space of possibility that uncertainty is. And one of the most interesting things about curiosity is that scientists have been finally studying this topic, too, and they’re beginning to kind of understand that one of the most key components of curiosity, of the curious disposition, is the ability to work with or tolerate the stress of inhabiting the unknown.

So, when you’re curious about something, anything, painting or what you’re curious about, something you’re doing at work, or curious about what this Nobel Prize winner did, you are actually having to kind of understand, or withstand, or kind of leverage that uncertainty in order to get to the answer. And that she really represents that. She really does. She spent so much energy on doing things that were denigrated, devalued in every sense of the word. She kept going and she basically exemplifies the willingness to stay in that liminal space, which is to not know, to not know in order to get the better answer.

If she had raced to the first answer, well, she might’ve discovered something but she never would’ve put the pieces together. She had to go down a lot of dead ends, and that, to me, is that entirely what uncertainty is about, productive uncertainty.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you elaborate on the distinction between working in a zigzag fashion versus linear fashion? What are those different modes look, sound, feel like by contrast?

Maggie Jackson
Well, I would say that the linear fashion         of working would be to work from one logical point to another, to be focused on outcome. Outcome orientation is a really hot topic in business circles today. Whereas, a zigzag, a nonlinear, that is something that Leonardo da Vinci was famous for. “Confusion rouses the mind to invention,” he once said.

And the zigzagging that she was referring to would be the dead ends. Many times, mRNA was actually toxic to the body when introduced in mice, etc. It didn’t do them any good. And so, basically, she could’ve quit there but instead she zagged, or zigged, over to a different type of thing. So, that’s what I mean.

Eighty percent of strategic business decisions are made after considering just one option. And, yet, if people actually go to the root of the problem and consider multiple reasons for the problem, multiple roots of the problem, then they’re actually four times more likely to have a successful decision.

So, again and again, we hear that we should widen our options but the other point of that is what I call widening and deepening, and that is testing and evaluating. So, again, that’s where you’re leveraging uncertainty. This is leveraging what Kahneman calls the slow mind. It’s what I also call take two. Rather than just leap to a solution, or go to what’s obvious, or try to shoot for that outcome, you’re willing to explore many avenues, and not forever.

Sometimes this can happen just in a few minutes in the operating room with a surgeon in crisis. They just take a minute to do take two, or to dwell in uncertainty, and then they find the better answer, or the hidden answer. And so, that’s what I mean by zigzag.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. And so, if folks do have this attitude or fear of uncertainty, do you have any recommended first steps in terms of, “Hey, if that’s where you’re at right now, here’s what I recommend you do or think about”?

Maggie Jackson
Yes, that’s a great question. And it’s really important, and I get asked that all the time now, “How can I get better at dealing with uncertainty?” And, actually, I’ll talk a little bit about what I found, but also there’s some new research on this, a great deal of research. There are scientists now planning a new study, an intervention, in Columbus, Ohio, to help stressed high schoolers gain resilience by teaching them how to better tolerate, which is not such a great word, but to manage uncertainty, to actually, it means lean into uncertainty. That’s the term I prefer.

And how are they doing that? Well, scientists, clinical psychologists, and others were developing these interventions, are now, they’re basically importing some lessons from exposure to therapy, so that makes sense. If you are fearful of uncertainty, if you’re the type who’s intolerant of surprises, you need to overprepare for the presentation, you need to pack not just your bag for the family vacation but the entire family’s bag because you don’t trust them to do it, those are kind of signs that you might be a little bit intolerant of uncertainty.

And so, trying new things, trying to, in effect, seek a little bit of surprise in your life, will show you not that it’s always the perfect solution. You might delegate at work, and it might not actually work out better every single time. But, at the same time, if you never delegate at work, you will never know the other possibilities that that person, that the hidden talents of that person shows. The person who works for you might show hidden talents when you allow them to work on that project a little more than before.

So, what you’re doing is expanding your perspectives, expanding your range of experience, and one of the ways in which clinical psychologists are now teaching people, especially people with anxiety, to get better at handling uncertainty, to stop denying and avoiding it, are tiny little things like, for instance, “Answer your cellphone without caller ID.” And that seems so simple but, at the same time, it’s just injecting a little bit of mystery.

And some scientists actually surmised that phones, because they provide instant answers all the time, and we’re checking 150 times a day, that’s what they call certainty-seeking behavior. So, some part of this is just sort of lifting up your head and kind of contending with what’s happening, not trying to control every little bit.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s fun. This reminds me of a recent camping trip in which we were…I don’t even remember what we’re talking about but it was some sort of factual question that could be readily Googled, and we weren’t sure, it’s like, “Oh, I think it’s this way.” “Well, no, I think it might be this because what about that?” And it was funny, we’re like, “Huh, here we are all not being quite sure about this thing,” which, on ordinary circumstances, when we had cellphone reception, someone would’ve Googled it within about five seconds, and then that would be that.

Maggie Jackson
Right. And, actually, what you were doing, by collectively or individually kind of cogitating, you were reaching into your memory, which is not something we do when we’re turned to the phone all the time. You’re actually reaching deep into your memory. And even if you don’t come up with the answer, it strengthens your brain to do so.

It’s really quite amazing but just searching around in your memory, something that we just don’t do today, is actually great for the brain. And why is that? Because, say, you’re trying to think of a painter. I’m trying madly to think of Degas, and all I can think of is Monet. And, really, if you’re looking around in your brain, internally searching, in other words, you’re looking through different knowledge networks because our minds and our experiences, they’re varied associations. They’re networked. They say they’re branching trees of knowledge.

And what you’re doing is going along those paths, and you’re saying, “Oh, well, maybe an impressionist, or I guess French,” so you’re strengthening by utilizing those synapses, you’re strengthening other areas of the brain, and that’s really great for greater wisdom. Our minds are not computers, information is not downloadable and upload-able. It’s really sort of an organic shifting thing. And that’s another reason why not knowing is really important because it kind of blows away that idea that our minds are computers.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, these are fun practices. Tell me, Maggie, anymore?

Maggie Jackson
Yes. Well, I would say one very, very important practice is it involves teamwork. So, uncertainty has a social side to it. And the upshot is that, basically, one of the best fuels of collaboration is conflict, and I mean judicious, mild, respectful conflict. But study after study shows that teams and groups that have mutual criticism, conflict, dissent are better performing. They actually have deeper discussions, they’re more creative, they surface hidden information that isn’t usually discussed, etc. Now, why is that?

Well, a lot of people think that, basically, when you have a disagreement or even when you just have diversity on a team, diversity of opinions, that diverse or dissenting opinion is just giving you the right answer, but that’s not true because a dissenting opinion, even if wrong, also bolsters performance. Why is it? It’s because uncertainty has rousted you from that kind of complacency of being in agreement. And the neuroscience on that is pretty amazing. The brain in agreement is a really lazy animal, believe me.

So, basically, if you can keep cultivating disagreement, then you get on what I call uncommon ground. It’s really important to be uncertain, and then you can do a whole host of things. You’re basically finding out what the team doesn’t know, which is really important for growth. You basically deepen and intensify the discussion. Now, studies have shown this in supreme courts, in the Supreme Courts, in juries, in financial trading, even on Mount Everest.

They did studies where teams that were very diverse, had a lot of different kinds of knowledge on climbing Mount Everest, but who emphasized all for one kind of mentality, so a kind of collective mentality, actually were more likely to have a depth on the team, and that’s really serious business. So, one flexible work consultant told me a wonderful story to illustrate this.

Cali Williams Yost was at a law firm where she was helping the firm institute flexible work for the legal team. I’m sorry, it was the legal team of an energy company. So, the legal team was all set to go, the bosses were on board, they were going to work remotely part time, etc. Well, one executive stood up and said he was completely opposed, at a meeting, and there was going to be a lot of knowledge left on the table because people weren’t meeting in the morning to coffee clap, etc.

Well, the bosses were angry, and everyone was shocked, they were all set. And what Cali Williams Yost wisely told me is that, basically, he was wrong to oppose flexible work but he was right, something was missing. And so, his dissent actually sparked a younger person in the room to, later in the afternoon, stand up, and say, “Well, I can create a virtual knowledge platform, and we can go remote and still have that time to coffee clap, so to speak.” So, that’s a perfect example of how dissent threw everyone into uncertainty, and then they were able to actually kind of find a third way to meet the problem.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s funny how, as I imagine that scene, the emotional reaction is just as you’ve described, it’s like folks are annoyed, like, “Oh, come on, man. Just, like, shut up and get in line. We’re almost done. Why you gotta be difficult and cause problems, and not be a team player?” Like, all of these negative associations. And yet, it really is an asset to have folks who have unique perspective and the courage to share it and go against the grain, it really does enrich the whole team, and yet so rarely do we say, “Thank you, dear colleague, for disagreeing with all of us. This is very helpful.”

Maggie Jackson
Oh, you’re so right. And you put it so well, and I’m so glad you used that word courage because I was just thinking of a quote by William James, a great psychology philosopher in the 19th century, who talked about the courage of a maybe. He basically talked about how no human achievement can be created without the “courage of a maybe.” And that’s exactly what’s happening.

I think one tip for people who want to try this, and I would advise, throw in a no, a gentle no, or maybe just a maybe. And what you’re doing with the word maybe is actually using something called hedge words. And so, those are really, really important. Hedge words are maybe, sometimes, those sorts of words, as opposed to more…there’s no alternative word for hedge words, but anyhow, non-hedge words, which are, “You’re wrong,” or, “Therefore.” Those are not hedge words.

And what hedge words do is signal your receptiveness to another opinion. They also signal that there’s something that’s not known. So, if you say, “Maybe we should consider something,” or, “Maybe we haven’t thought of…” etc., you’re actually smoothing the way for others to pick up on that. And it’s a wonderful kind of linguistic flag that you’re waving, saying, “Hey, maybe we shouldn’t be so sure,” and that’s where then the disagreement can be fueled, and the uncertainty. And then people can be in the space of uncommon ground, and then go deeper and explore multiple perspectives.

Another study I really loved, which brings this all to life, was basically a CEO who’s in Europe, a few years ago when the European Union was being widely expanded, so quite a bit of Eastern Europe was being inducted into the EU. And so, it was a time of great unknowns for business leaders on that continent. And so, two professors, one in Germany, one in the US, went and studied German CEOs for an entire year, and they asked them whether they’re for this expansion or were they against it, and what would happen, was it good for their company or was it bad for their company.

Well, when they got the results back, they found this third group. To their surprise, 25% or more of the CEOs were ambivalent, they didn’t really know, “Well, we’re not really sure this is going to expand the markets. Is it going to take our customers away? We’re not sure.” And it’s amazing to me that the professors were surprised.

Well, a year later, fast forward, the result was the people who were sure that it would be either good for their company or bad for their company, basically didn’t do very much. Those who were ambivalent were more resourceful, they came up with more products, they opened new factories, they actually were more inclusive, they asked for different opinions. They weren’t sure so that propelled them to do more.

And I think there was an award-winning study, and it just perfectly underscores not just what we’re talking about, about dissent, but also about the power of uncertainty. And it certainly is an overlooked unsung power.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I like that a lot. They’re not sure and, thusly, they do more. They’re not sure, so it was like, “Uh-oh, I don’t know so I better hustle. I better figure it out and do the research, do the work, do the investigation, talk to people, and get the info.” And this reminds me of, I don’t know if this has been coined somewhere before, but I might’ve made this up. I call it second time syndrome.

Like, the second time you do something, you might get worse results than the first time because you’re more confident, like, “Oh, I know how this goes,” versus the first time, you’re like, “Oh, boy, I’m a little scared, a little intimidated, a little overwhelmed. I better really hustle and figure this out.” Like, I remember, I was, at one point, a leadership seminar chair, or HOBY daddy for these HOBY, Hugh O’Brian Youth Leadership event, so there’s a bunch of folks assembled for a three-day thing, and I’m kind of like the guy in charge of everything.

And so, the first time, I was like, “Wow, this is intimidating. I really want to make sure I’m on top of everything,” and it went very well. And the second time, I thought, “Oh, we got this. It’s fine.” And it was still good but it was not as excellent as the first one. I could see this event now years later. And it’s because I was more certain and more comfortable and less effortful the second time around.

Maggie Jackson
I think that’s so true and that’s such a good point. Because uncertainty, and confronting something new, is actually putting you at the edge of your knowledge, and that’s exactly when we want to retreat. There’s a term called the routine expert. The routine expert is someone, we’ve seen it everywhere. We see it in medicine. We see it in accounting. We see it in reporting. I’m a journalist. But people who have accrued years of experience, they’re really good at what they do, but everything has become routine. They have this sort of honed automaticity, so the heuristic thinking, “Chest pain equals heart attack” that is predominant.

But when the routine expert hits something that’s really new, they just retreat into the same old solutions, and they’re then not doing well. They fail. Whereas, adaptive experts are the people who can utilize that uncertainty, to do the kind of deliberative work, and also to be flexible about using their knowledge. And so, adaptive experts are nimble. And that’s exactly what we want.

When something goes wrong in the operating room, I witnessed multiple operations up in Toronto while researching this book, and one of the senior surgeons who epitomizes our ideal of the expert, he was quick, he was sure, really sure, well, he then, in a moment, in a terrifying moment in the operating room, he thought he had done something nearly lethal to the patient during a liver operation. Everything fell silent, there was sweat on his cap.

Well, he was just too sure. He carried his certainty into that operation like a badge of honor. And then he was able to, “It was not a lethal error,” but, at the same time, he epitomizes what we loved in experts. And we really are venerating the wrong type of experts. What we want to really emulate and respect the people who ask the questions, the people who say, “I don’t know,” whether it’s medicine or not, and the leaders who are willing to pause and deliberate.

And other study shows that those leaders, who when confronting a new problem, actually, are deemed in experimental studies anyhow as being less influential. But we’ve got it all wrong. We’ve got it all wrong. We need to be really promoting people who ask questions, who don’t mind hesitating for productive uses, who don’t mind being unsure.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s beautiful. Indeed, we tend to favor, like, trust the confident-sounding voice but there are studies that reveal that there is almost no correlation between the confidence someone exerts and how right or good they are at the thing, so that’s dangerous and some ways it’s like we’d be better off if we trusted or valued more the nuanced person, it’s like, “Well, you know, under these circumstances, it’s probably best for A, but, however, given the variables X, Y, Z, I’m leaning towards B.”

Like, that doesn’t sound as commanding and inspiring, like, “Yes, you know what you’re doing. I’ll follow you unto death” That doesn’t give you the that emotional charge. And yet, it’s likely much closer to true, and there’s much higher probability, it seems, of finding great wisdom there worth following.

Maggie Jackson
Exactly. Adaptive wisdom, the kind of person who sees the world as it is, not as they wish it to be or assume it to be. And that takes time, it takes effort, it takes unease, etc. but it’s really important that we change our views on what a leader is, that we change our views on what a student or a pundit or a presidential candidate is, because the cost of our certainty are certainly rising, and we can see it everywhere in terms of the polarization, narrowmindedness, etc., the anxiety levels.

I see that uncertainty, if we begin to understand it, to study it, to learn how to use it skillfully, can really change humanity, and give me great hope. They’re even trying to, there’s a movement by leaders in AI today to instill uncertainty in models, in robots, that is to make AI unsure. Now, there is some uncertainty in a robot. It couldn’t traverse the factory floor without some degree of being open to what’s unpredictable in its environment.

But what they’re trying to do, and this is picking up steam, and it’s really quite important, is to make on a robot that’s unsure in its aims. So, say, you have a housekeeper robot, and it’s fetching your coffee, well, today’s AI is built to carry out a task because the rationalist’s definition of intelligence is fulfilling your goals no matter what. And, therefore, that’s both the danger and the wisdom of today’s AI.

Well, an unsure robot, and what I call the “I don’t know” robot, will actually ask you how you want your coffee, or which room across the kitchen, or, “Do you want something?” It’s teachable and it’s more honest. It’s not just doing what it was initially programmed to do. It’s more flexible. And in that very vision of “I don’t know” robot, we can see something a little bit that we should be striving for, too.

Pete Mockaitis
The quote that comes to mind thinking about these notions of certainty is this quote, I come back to it again and again, I just got to have him on the show. Robert Rubin said, “Some people are more certain of everything than I am of anything.” And I can totally relate, it’s like, “Are you sure?” And I think about all these scenarios when the experts tell me the opposite of each other, and they do so very confidently.

Like, roofers. You get multiple bids on a roof project, it’s like, “Wow, that guy said we had to tear it off, and the other guy said we could just put another layer on. And they were both very sure. And they’re the roof experts, and I’m not. What the heck am I supposed to do here?” And I think that if most of us took the time to solicit multiple perspectives from multiple angles, we would see a lot of that, “Wow, these people are very certain of the exact opposite thing. Well, now I have to do some hard thinking.”

Maggie Jackson
Exactly. And we think of uncertainty as being sort of lost, adrift, etc., some of the metaphors used with uncertainty or lostness and wandering, etc., but it’s a form of exploration. It’s kind of a wonderful way to buy time, in a sense, so that you can explore the possibilities and uncover the complexities that are already there.

You’re not creating complexities when you do a little bit more pondering. You’re actually uncovering what’s already there. And it’s not that it’s an endless kind of pursuit but it has its place, and we haven’t given enough due to being unsure.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Maggie, tell me, any final things you want to share before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Maggie Jackson
No, I think we covered a lot of great ground.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Maggie Jackson
Yeah, it’s actually a quote from my book, and there are many but I’ll start the quote, “’I know’ seems to describe a state of affairs which guarantees what is known, guarantees it as a fact. One always forgets the expression, ‘I thought I knew.’” That’s Ludwig Wittgenstein, the philosopher.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Maggie Jackson
Well, there are lots. Yeah, I’ll tell one little one. And you probably heard of the candle problem. This was a psychological experiment developed in the 1920s in which people were asked to tack a candle to the wall using just a box of matches, some thumbtacks, and then just the candle. Well, people made a real mess of it, and they tried to melt the candle, glue it to the wall, etc.

Well, the answer lies in making a platform out of the matchbox. But the point of this story is that people only see what an object is meant to do, not what it can do, because they’re so sure that matchboxes are there just to hold the matches. They cannot see any further. And what’s wonderful about this study is that if you take a bunch of five-year-olds and give them a similar study, but without the matches, with toys on a shelf, the five-year-olds don’t have any problem with this. Their knowledge doesn’t get in their way of their problem-solving.

Whereas, at age seven and up, they’re beginning to act like adults. They only see what it’s made to do. They don’t ask what it can do. And that’s a miniature example of the beauty of being unsure. And uncertainty is basically another word for open-mindedness.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Maggie Jackson
I would have to say Pride and Prejudice, kind of an old classic but it’s really about two people, Mr. Darcy, Elizabeth Bennet, whose certainty got in the way of their love. And, finally, when they were a little bit less sure, they were able to get together and understand one another despite their differences. I already loved that book before I became an uncertainty junkie, so to speak. But now I kind of see it through the prism of uncertainty.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Maggie Jackson
It definitely has to be just plain old paper pad. I’m completely adoring of the technology of paper. By writing, I don’t write everything in the longhand, but I do drafts of what I work on that I call sketches, literally, because I can draw arrows and make circles out of what it is. It’s all over the map. And I find that, by putting something immediately onto a computer, I’m forcing my thoughts onto the template of another person’s design. And so, I find that the legal pads, I go through so many, and they’ve been a huge help to me in my writing.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Maggie Jackson
Well, in order to get in the focus that I need, there’s a kind of boundary-making, focuses literally a boundary-making, a type of attention that creates boundaries around what you want to be doing, I use alarm clocks and I use distance from my phone. So, if I really have to concentrate, I’ll put my phone on another level of my office, downstairs, basically. If I’m able to take a phone call, it’ll be nearer to me, but it changes how you think, etc. So, I really curate where the phone is.

I also use alarm clocks. So, if I have an appointment in an hour, I’ll put the alarm clock on, and then I don’t have to spend my mental resources thinking about when I have to do this. I then am able to drift off, inhabit the uncertainty, focus on what I need to do, and completely within the new you of what I need to think about.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Maggie Jackson
I’d say that the quote from my book that resonates most with people is “Uncertainty is unsettling, and that is its gift.”

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Maggie Jackson
I would say my website would be a great one to stop and shop. I’m also on Twitter, LinkedIn, but the website is a great resource for my articles, my events, etc., what’s going on with my books.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Maggie Jackson
I think that if you realized that at any one moment you might not know, you’ll be giving yourself the power of an open mind.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Maggie, this has been a treat. Well, Maggie, thank you for this. I wish you much fun uncertainty in the years to come.

Maggie Jackson
Thank you, Pete. It’s been a pleasure. You, too.

Pete Mockaitis
Laura, welcome back to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Laura Gassner Otting
Hey, Pete, I’m glad to be back.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to dig into the wisdom of your latest work Wonderhell: Why Success Doesn’t Feel Like It Should . . . and What to Do About It. Whoa, that’s a big concept. Laura, what even made you think this is a thing you want to write?

Laura Gassner Otting
Well, I think a lot of personal development and self-help authors write the books that they needed but they couldn’t find. So, when my last book Limitless that I talked about on your show last time came out, I suddenly found myself in this place where I was like, “Oh, that book did okay. It did pretty good. I wonder what pretty great would feel like?” And I saw this potential that I had in me, that I didn’t even have a mailing list when the book came out, and it debuted as a bestseller, and it was, like, “Pretty amazing. But how do I make it even bigger? Like, how do I do the next thing?”

And in that moment of success, well, I thought I was at the end of the line, I thought I was done, I was finished, I published the book, great, I suddenly realized that success wasn’t an endpoint but it was a waypoint. It became this portal that showed me that there was even more inside of me. And so, I had this moment where I realized, like it’s exciting, it’s humbling, it’s amazing, it’s wonderful, but also now I have this burden of potential that’s sitting on my shoulders, and I’m filled with anxiety, and fear, and dread, and uncertainty, and doubt, and impostor syndrome, and exhaustion, and burnout.

It’s wonderful but it’s kind of hell. It’s sort of Wonderhell. And so, I went about reading all the self-help books that were out there, like I 10X’d, and I crushed it, and I leaned in, and I washed my face, and I apologized, and all the things I was supposed to do, and, Pete, none of them worked. And so, finally, I was like, “All right. Well, there got to be people who know.”

So, I just started talking to other people who have been super successful people.

And it turns out that there are no answers, that we don’t actually get through these moments of Wonderhell but we just learn how to get more comfortable in them because on the other side of this Wonderhell is just the next one, and the next one, and the next one after that. And so, the book really talks about everything I learned from these people and how they learned not just to try to survive these moments but how to look forward to them, and thrive in them instead.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, then let’s capture the main idea here. So, we achieve a success, a goal, a victory, something cool, and maybe it exceeds your expectations, like, “Whoa, all right, there we go.” And so then, you’re suggesting the common emotional experience for such achievers goes like what?

Laura Gassner Otting
Well, so what happens is every time we experience success, whether it’s a huge success, like, “I just sold my first company,” or a small success, like, “I just sold my first consulting contract,” or, “My first tube of lipstick.” Like, it doesn’t have to be like this huge massive thing. We think we’re like, okay, we’ve been sold this bill of goods, like, once we succeed everything gets easier. Like, once you just get to the other side of this project, this potential, this committee, this promotion, everything will get easier.

And what I learned from my own experience and from all the people that I talked to is that it actually doesn’t get easier. In fact, it gets harder because every time we achieve something, we realize that there’s more inside of us. Like, the success becomes a portal to everything else we could be. And so, we feel this faster pace, this bigger hunger, this drive to see what else is out there and what else we could be. And because of that, success never feels as good as we think it’s going to feel because it’s never the endpoint. It’s just a waypoint.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m intrigued, Laura, when you said bigger hunger, I think sometimes, I’ve heard tales – I’ve experienced a touch this myself – that instead of a bigger hunger, it’s just like, “Okay, well, I’ve been chasing this thing for a long time, and I got it, and that’s really cool, but now what? I don’t really have a new big dream or goal or thing I’m after.” And, in a way, it could be sort of a downer, I think there’s less hunger. So, do you see that as well? Or, how do you think about this vibe?

Laura Gassner Otting
Yeah, absolutely. And for a lot of those people, there’s this moment that feels almost a little bit like burnout. So, the book, I wrote the book, it sort of emulates an amusement park, where, like, you go to an amusement park, you think it’s going to be fun. You can go to all the towns, you can go to all the rides, you can eat all the food. It’s going to be great.

And then it’s like 3:00 o’clock in the afternoon, and you’re a little sunburned and you’re a lot dehydrated, and that corndog in your stomach is not so happy, and you’re in line for the rollercoaster, and you’re like, “Do I really want to go on this? Like, I was told this was going to be fun. I thought this was going to be fun.”

So, success is kind of the same way, where you get to that goal, and you’re like, “I thought this was supposed to be fun. Like, why do I just feel kind of blah? Like, why doesn’t it feel better when I’m here?” So, the book is sort of organized around an amusement park, and there’s three towns: there’s Impostor Town, there’s Doubtsville, and there’s Burnout City.

So, burnout city, the first ride, like all the chapters are rides, the first ride of burnout city is the merry go round, which is that moment where you just say no hustle porn, you’re like, “I’ve done the thing, I’ve crested the mountain, and maybe right now, like, I’m okay where I am. Like, I achieved the big work thing, and now I want to spend time focusing on other parts of my life.”

So, we’re told that we need to keep going, like bigger, better, faster, more. As soon as you achieve something, you need to be “What’s the next thing you want to achieve?” And so, for a lot of the people that I spoke to, they saw their lives sort of in these seasons, where there’s a time for them to be building their businesses, there’s a time for them to be growing in their jobs, but then there are also times when they’re like, “You know what, maybe I don’t want to take on the next big thing, the next big promotion. And maybe I don’t want to syndicate my podcast. Maybe I don’t want to take on the job that’s going to put me on the road all the time because I’ve got small kids.”

So, it’s not even necessarily a case of “I don’t know what the next big thing is.” It can also be a case of, like, “Even if I do know what the next big thing is, maybe I don’t want to do that. Like, I don’t need to keep bigger, better, faster, more growing. I just want to expose other parts of my life right now because I’ve already done that thing over there.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, hey, since we’re in Burnout Town, let’s complete our tour, and then visit the other two towns. And so, yeah, if folks find themselves in this kind of a spot, are there some cool stories or best practices you recommend for dealing with that effectively?

Laura Gassner Otting
So, one of the stories that I actually talk about in Burnout Town is the story of Jordan Harbinger, who is of the Jordan Harbinger Show, a very popular podcast, and he was approached to syndicate his podcast, a very successful podcast, people approached him to 10X the thing.

And he looked around, and he said, “You know, I spend all day long talking to incredibly successful humans who are all coming on my show at the time when they’re like launching a book, or a launching a course, or launching a mastermind, or some sort of thing.” And he goes, “And I interview them, and they’re like, ‘This is the part that sucks. This is the part where I’m on the road all the time. This is the part where I don’t see my kids. This is the part where I’m spending money out the wazoo and I don’t even know if I’m going to get it back. This is the part that sucks.”

“And then, afterwards, they’re like, ‘Hey, so, Jordan, when are you going to write your book? When are you going to have your mastermind?’” And he’s like, “No, it sounds terrible. Why would I want to do it?” So, when he got approached to syndicate his show, he looked around and he said, “Everybody I know who is doing the thing, everybody I know with a private jet is miserable. All they do is tell me about how expensive the private jet is.”

“And so, I looked around and I thought, ‘Why did I get into this in the first place?’ I got in this the first place because I want a ton of flexibility in my life. And he said, “Now, I’m married, I’ve got a baby, I’ve got another baby on the way,” and he’s like, “There’s only so many days I could say to my kids, like, ‘Hey, it’s Tuesday afternoon, your dad has got a super flexible job, let’s go to Disney World today so we can avoid the long lines on the weekend.’”

He’s like, “There’s only so many years I could do that before my kids are, like, “You, you old fart. We don’t want to hang out with you. We want to hang out with our friends and go play XBOX or something.” So, he was, like, “When I got approached for that, I thought about all the people that I talk to who are hustling, and who were exhausted, and who were miserable, and I looked at my little babies and I thought, ‘Nah, I’m good. I’m going to stay right here for a little while, and then, the syndication thing, it’ll be there later.’”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. And as I think about Jordan’s example, because I sort of follow his podcast world, and he’s done quite well for the show, I guess, without taking that pathway, and is, in fact, really a leader in this space, specifically, of smartly purchasing – not to get too much in the weeds and minutiae of the podcast industry – but smartly purchasing promo spots for his own show on other podcasts, which he recoups via just audience growth and then selling ads on his show in a beautiful replicable kind of scaling way, which is, like, “Oh, maybe that’s my future, too.” Thank you for sharing us the pathway to that. So, he’s still hustling, in a way, but on his own terms, it seems.

Laura Gassner Otting
On his own terms. And, speaking of podcasts, there’s another podcaster I interviewed for the show is Jonathan Fields, a dear friend of mine. And Jonathan talked about his own experiences with burnout, and his really were focused around this question of perfection. So, when he was younger, when he was a teenager, his grandfather just passed away, and they were cleaning out his grandfather’s house.

And he said, “Well, I went down to the basement and I found this pile of old paint and an old doorframe, and I stuck the door on a bunch of cement blocks, and I just started painting. And I lost myself for hours in the painting. And it was the first experience I ever had of being in flow about something. So, I decided I wanted to start painting album covers on jean jackets. And, in my mind, I had this vision of what the album covers would look like on the jean jackets, and then I would try to paint them. And I was not able to produce what I saw in my mind, the thing in my mind that I, literally, had no right to expect because I had no experience painting.”

And he said, “And then I would take these terrible jean jackets, and I would destroy them, and I was so filled with self-hatred about the fact that I wasn’t perfect at this thing, that the self-punishing behavior became super damaging.” And he said, “I took that perfectionist drive, and I took that through law school, through an early career in law. And so, one day I realized that I was, literally, putting myself in the hospital because I was so stressed about the perfectionism.”

And he said that he learned much later, and I learned this through my research, that there are three different types of perfectionism, and there’s only one which is like self-oriented, like wanting more from ourselves, which is even remotely good for us. But what he said was, now, he’s older, he’s in his 50s, he looks back and he says, “The truth is I just released my last book. It debuted as a US Today instant bestseller.”

He said, “I’m not that proud of that.” He goes, “I’m proud of it but I’m prouder of the fact that on page 34 or the third chapter, or the third paragraph of chapter four, there’s a paragraph that I couldn’t have written five years ago. I wasn’t capable of doing it. And now I know that when I see something that’s hard, I don’t go, ‘God, I can’t do it. I’m not perfect.’ I think isn’t it amazing that I get so spend the next 10 years getting better at that thing?’”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, from the stories of Jordan Harbinger and Jonathan Fields, and your other research, any sort of key prescriptive to-dos you’d recommend if folks are in that space of, “Hey, just had a big success, and now having some burnout”? What’s to be done?

Laura Gassner Otting
Yeah. Well, I think that there are a lot of different ways that we can define success, and I think that when we finish one thing, we assume that the next success should be something else in that vein, like, either we’re going to build the next bigger business, we’re going to get the next bigger job, or we’re just going to just keep going on the same path.

And I think, based on 20 years on executive search and interviewing the most successful people in the world, I called all of them because they were super successful. They all called me back because, despite that success, they weren’t very happy. So, they were like, “Oh, is there another job, another promotion, another title, another organization out there?” Like, we think we’ll be happy when.

So, what I learned in that work in two decades in executive search is that we start our careers thinking that success is defined a very specific way. Like, whatever somebody told us at some point, whether it was a teacher, or a parent, or a boss, or an internet celebrity, or a guidance counselor before we had a frontal lobe, we were 17 years old, we start our career with a certain definition of success, and then we follow our entire career with this same one.

And I would say, like a specific tactic would be to ask yourself, “What actually makes you happy? How do you define success?” For some people, that success may be, “I want to make a bajillion dollars.” For other people, it may be, “I want to make just enough money but I want to be at home every night and have dinner with my kids.” For other people, it might be, “I want to cure cancer.” But everybody has different definitions. And even as we change, the world around us changes also.

So, my tactic for people is to check in with yourself. Don’t just blindly keep doing the same thing you did before just because it’s now. Like, keep thinking about it. And I think the pandemic is actually a perfect time to do this because I think a lot of us woke up in the middle of the pandemic, and we’re like, “You know, when life goes back to normal, is the normal I’m going back to really the life I want?” And I think, for a lot of people, the answer was “Not really.”

I don’t know anybody that came out of 2020, 2021, even 2022, not thinking that there were some changes that they wanted to make in some way. And so, I just think it’s a perfect time right now to reassess and to reprioritize.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, can you take us to another town within Wonderhell and share with us what that’s about?

Laura Gassner Otting
Yeah. So, why don’t we go to the beginning? Let’s go to Impostor Town.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Laura Gassner Otting
So, Impostor Town is every time we figure out that there is something in us, something more that’s in us, something that we’re capable of doing. There’s also a voice inside of our head that goes, “Are you sure you should be doing this? Are you sure this is for you? Are you sure that nobody’s going to figure out that you’re a fraud, that you don’t belong here?”

And so, Impostor Town is there’s this great moment of, “This is exciting. This is something I want to do.” But then we hear these voices that go, “Oh, my God, you haven’t done this before. Don’t do it. You’re going to get hurt. It’s going to be a problem.” And I think we have to turn those voices around and hear them not as limitations but as invitations.

So, it’s not, “Oh, my God, you haven’t done this before,” it’s, “Oh, my God, you haven’t done this before. What an opportunity.” So, with the people that I spoke to, and I thought, Pete, let me tell you, I thought I was going to talk to these incredible people, like I said, glass ceiling shatterers, Olympic medalists, startup unicorns, and they were going to tell me how they got through impostor syndrome, like how did they finally get through it.

And much to my chagrin, it turns out that there’s no way to get through it. Like, everybody, each one of them at every stage, at every age, at every level, had impostor syndrome because each time they were going into a room, they were going into an opportunity, they were going into an office, they were going into a possibility that they did not think was available to them before. Like, every time we succeed and we look to the doors of success to what else is out there, there’s other doors behind it that we don’t know are available to us, even if we know they exist.

So, this impostor syndrome, the people who were able to thrive in wonderhell didn’t see the impostor syndrome as a limitation, but they saw them as actually these incredibly helpful allies that told them if they were on the right track. And I thought that that was a pretty great way to turn that idea around because if you just think about impostor syndrome alone, like the gall of the term impostor syndrome, like, “Oh, you’re an impostor. Maybe you should leave. You have a syndrome. You’re sick. Maybe you should lay down.”

So, if we think about impostor syndrome and we think about ourselves as the impostor, we’re the ones that are wrong, when, in fact, most of the people who feel impostor syndrome are trying to operate in an environment that wasn’t built by them, wasn’t built for them. Like, unless you’re the madman of the 1950s, too female, too gay, too black or brown. We’re trying to get into rooms that were not built for us, that don’t accommodate us.

And so, the impostor tries to change the shape of themselves to fit into a room that wasn’t built for them, when, in fact, we should be demanding that the rooms themselves change shape. So, this idea, this notion of sort of turning this around and not saying impostor syndrome where something is wrong with me, but impostor syndrome is actually telling me that I’ve gotten to a place that I never knew I could get to, and isn’t that awesome, was a really interesting mindset shift for me.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. That’s good. Okay. And can we visit the final town?

Laura Gassner Otting
Yup, so the final town is Doubtsville. And Doubtsville is when you are starting, you’re there, and you’re like toes over the edge of incompetence, which, honestly, is the most fun place to be. Like, the only things I’ve ever done in my life that I was excited about were things that I didn’t know how to do. Like, it’s not that interesting to do the puzzle again. You want to do a new puzzle. You want to do something different.

So, Doubtsville is really, like, you found yourself in this place, you don’t quite know what to do, and you’ve got to figure it out, you’ve got to find your own way, you’ve got to realize that you are flying without a net, that there’s maybe never been a net there ever, and you’ve got to figure out who you want to have around you, who belongs in the sidecar with you, and, frankly, who doesn’t.

And, also, how do you manage uncertainty, how do you figure out when everything in the world is completely brand-new and unknown. So, in these moments when we don’t quite know who we are, or where we are, and how we should be, these are the stories that I learned about, about how to get us through those moments.

Pete Mockaitis
And what are some of the top things to do?

Laura Gassner Otting
Yeah. So, some of the stories that I love were, first of all, I did an interview with Jen Welter who was the first female coach of the NFL, and before she became a coach, she actually played for a very short while. And when she was at the training camp, she said to the coach, she was like, “Listen, you’re either going to have to cut me or kill me because I’m not quitting.” She stands of all of 5’4” I think.

But what she did is she decided she was going to break down all of the plays, all of the moves into their component parts. And when she did that, she began to understand the game in a way that, actually, made her into a really good coach. She didn’t know it at the time, but it made her into a really good coach, and so, she became a coach for the NFL.

And when she became a coach for the NFL, she had this moment where she realized, like, “There’s no roadmap, there’s no safety net, there’s no buddy who’s done this before me. I’m going to be the first girl but I’m dead set on not being the last girl.” So, she knew she had to do well by all the women who could come after her.

And she said, “If I decided to do what everybody else did, and I tried to go toe-to-toe with these giant football players and yell at them, I’d be toe-to-toe but I’d also be, like, eyeball to bellybutton. Like, I wasn’t going to be able to do the thing the way everyone else had.” So, she said, “I became the master of the lean-in, of the pull-aside, and I pulled the players aside, and I would whisper because everyone can lean in for a whisper.”

“I became the queen of the pull-aside, the strong pull-aside, and I would whisper, and I would tell the players what they should do. And I was so good at it, and they could tell that I knew the game, and I loved the game, and I understood each component part, that when I finished, they were like, ‘That’s great, coach. What else you got for me?’” People respected her.

So, she could’ve done it the way everybody else did it, and failed. Like, in this moment of doubt, a lot of times we go, “Who else is out there? How are they doing it? Let me do exactly how they’re doing it.” Or, she could say, “I have to do it my way. I have to learn to do it my way. And if I do it my way, and I’m the very best at my way, then I can succeed.” And so, I think a lot of times we forget that what got us there, it might not be enough to get us where we want to go but it certainly is enough to build on a foundation of where we’re going from there.

Another story I’ll tell you from that section is a story of Dorie Clark. And Dorie, she’s an author who I know, she’s written a lot of great personal development books, and she’s a professor at Duke’s Fuqua School of Business. She’s one of the top business thinkers in the world, but she also wants to become a Broadway producer.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. She mentioned this.

Laura Gassner Otting
Yes. Yes. So, this is one fun little thing. One of her books is called Reinventing You and it’s all about how to reinvent yourself. And so, she’s reinventing herself as a someone who’s going to score Broadway musicals. And so, she decides she wants to do this, and she applies and gets rejected from it, and applies again after some coaching, and finally gets into one of the top Broadway musical scoring programs in the world.

And so, she’s there on the first day, and everybody is going around the room talking about what they’ve done, and this one’s won a Tony, and that one scored six musicals, and she’s like, “I’ve scored three whole songs. And I could either have, in that moment, put up my hoodie and shrunk back into my sweatshirt, and left the room, or I could’ve said, ‘You know, Dorie, you’ve been really successful in other parts of your life, in areas where you didn’t know what you were doing, but you knew how to become better. You don’t know how to do this. It’s not that you’re not good. You’re just not good yet.’”

“So, everything that got me to here was what I was able to do, the habits I was able to build, the network I was able to create, the grit, the tenacity, the hunger, the weight, all of those things, that was enough to get me here. And all I can build on all of those things to get me to where I want to get to. So, it’s not that I’m not good, I’m just not good yet.”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s powerful. That’s really good. And I’ve heard it said, “If you’re the smartest person in the room, you need to find some other rooms.”

Laura Gassner Otting
I say that all the time, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Maybe you told me that, Laura.

Laura Gassner Otting
If you’re the smartest person in the room, you’re in the wrong room.

Pete Mockaitis
And Dorie often is the smartest person in a lot of rooms, and so it’s pretty cool to be able to step into that spot. And I think it’s actually quite endearing if someone said, “Hey, you know what, you guys have wisdom and experience far beyond mine, and I’m really excited to learn from you all.” As someone who is more experienced in that room, I get excited to be with that person, and say, “Ooh, here’s someone who’s eager and they’re not…I guess, they’re opposite of stuck up, inflexible, un-coachable. It’s exciting to say, ‘Ooh, someone’s about to have a transformation here, and I get to have a little role in it.’”

And, well, I guess, that’s kind of my thing. But even if it’s not, even if you’re not a podcaster, or in the personal development world, it’s just a good human feeling to be a part of that.

Laura Gassner Otting
Yeah. It’s funny, people always ask me, like, who’s in my inner circle, and I say, “I have three types of people in my inner circle.” I have aspirationals, like people who I want to be when I grow up, people who are way more successful than I am in the thing that I want to do, my aspirationals. They are the ones that I call for advice, they are the ones who give me these mentoring moments, they are the ones who give me, like, a kick in the ass when I need it. They don’t let me settle for mediocrity. My aspirationals.

Then I have my peers. And my peers are the ones who are like, they’re in the foxhole with me. They’re on the same track as me, and we complain about stuff together, we whine about stuff together, we celebrate together, we learn from each other because they’re learning one thing about what we’re doing, I’m learning another thing so we can power of two. So, the peers are really great.

And then there are the mentees. And having people come to me for advice, I have found, is the greatest way to get rid of my impostor syndrome ever. It’s the greatest way for me to get rid of my doubt ever because if I’m teaching somebody something that I know, I might not even remember that I know the thing. Like, it’s a great reminder of how far I’ve come, how much I’ve learned, how hard I fought, and I think that if you can, on a regular basis, be part of somebody else’s transformation, it continues to build your own transformation because it reminds you that you actually do know a thing or two.

Pete Mockaitis
That is perfectly said, and that’s been my experience a number of times when folks are asking for advice, or, “Hey, Pete, could you do a talk on this thing?” And I thought, “If I were in your shoes, and you want to talk about productivity, I’d probably book David Allen or Greg McKeown, or if you want to talk about effective presenting, I’d probably go to Nick Morgan.” I’m thinking of the super luminaries in the field, and they’re like, “Yeah, Pete, but we don’t got that kind of budget.” I was like, “All right, fair enough.”

Or, it’s like, “I just want to have a quick chat because we’re buds. Just tell me what you know.” I was like, “Well, okay, I guess, sure.” And then I just get on a roll, and then it’s like been an hour, and they say, “Okay. Well, I want to be respectful of your time,” and I’m thinking, “No, I’m having fun and actually I have a lot more to say apparently about this thing.”

Laura Gassner Otting
Absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
So, I was like, “Oh, okay, I guess you got to go, so I guess just take those 12 points and five experts and six books, and, hopefully, that’ll do something for you.” It’s like, “Huh, I guess I know a lot about that thing.”

Laura Gassner Otting
I know but isn’t that great, though? Don’t you find that in those moments that you’re like, “Oh, okay, maybe I am myself becoming a luminary?” And that’s pretty cool. I think it’s pretty amazing because, look, like you are a professional student, I think that’s pretty cool. Your job is to learn all day long, is to read books, and to watch talks, and to talk to people about big ideas. That’s pretty special. So, yeah, I think people would be really lucky to be able to bend your ear for some advice.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, shucks. Well, thank you, and it really is a dream come true, and I appreciate, it just feels nice personally to be reminded of that. And so, when people say, “So, Pete, what’s next for your career?” it’s funny, part of me thinks, “Well, this is kind of everything. Does there need to be a next? I’m not sure.”

Laura Gassner Otting
Yeah, I can’t tell you how many podcasts, how many journalists, how many just friends that I’ve talked to, like, “What’s your next book is going to be about?” And I’m like, “My next book? Can I just have this book right now? Can I have this one?” Yeah, but I think that’s a thing. I think people need to put us in a box. Everybody likes to have shortcuts.

So, when I sold my last business, I sold my last business to the woman who helped me build it, and I ran into an old friend at Starbucks who I hadn’t seen in years, and she was, like, “So, what are you going to do now?” And I looked at her, and I’m like, “I don’t know. I’m going to figure it out.” And she just did not know what to do, she had this look of fear, of horror, of uncertainty.

I think part of her was, like, jealous that I suddenly had freedom to figure it out. I think part of her was questioning whether or not she should leave her job so that she can do something else. I think part of her was like, “I don’t know who you are when you’re not LGO CEO of the search firm. Like, where do I refile you?” I was like a hanging chad, like she didn’t know what to do with me, and I think people want that shortcut.

So, I think a lot of times when we ask people for advice, they rush us to solution because they’re uncomfortable sitting in the discomfort with us. In 2021, I was very, very ill, like I didn’t know if I was going to see 2022. Like, ten months of chemotherapy. It was a bad year. And I had so many people that were like, “Oh, you’re going to be just fine. You’re going to get through it.” And as soon as I was through it in remission, it was like, “It’s behind you. It’s never coming back.”

And, finally, I had to turn to some of those people and say, “You know, when you tell me in the middle of it, or just after it when I’m still processing it, that it’s all fine and it’s over, you’re actually discounting me and my emotions, and needing to actually understand what happened. And I understand that you’re not comfortable with me saying, ‘Yeah, I’m a little worried that maybe it’ll come back.’ But just because you’re not comfortable, doesn’t mean you get to steal that away from me. Like, if you’re not comfortable sitting in my discomfort with me, you can go. It’s fine. You can leave.”

But that people feel the same way, whether it’s about health, whether it’s about divorce, whether it’s about unemployment, like whatever the sticky thing is, it’s kind of I just want to say to people, “You can just say, ‘Oh, that seems really hard. I’m sorry you’re going through that,’ or, ‘That seems an adventure. I can’t wait to see what you do next.’”

Like, it’s okay to be in the unknown. Wonderhell is all about that. It’s, like, “How do you sit in the discomfort of not knowing where this is leading to, knowing that it could lead somewhere amazing, or you could fall really short?” And I just think we all have to get a little more comfortable being uncomfortable sometimes.

Pete Mockaitis
Laura, that’s powerful stuff. I’m tearing up over here.

Laura Gassner Otting
That was a lot. That was heavy.

Pete Mockaitis
One, you’re just such a gift to the world, and I’m glad you made it. And so, that’s great. And, two, I’m thinking about my mom when… she’ll share some things, “Oh, hey, Pete, so-and-so from hometown Danville, well, yeah, I saw on Facebook there are some tough stuff going on. Like, her son had really dramatic burns from a fire, and they’re in the hospital and they’re not quite sure what’s going to happen,” or, “So-and-so’s child has cancer and so there’s photos of this precious six-year-old who’s bald and it’s tough stuff.” And then my mom, she’ll say that, “I really don’t like it when people on Facebook say, ‘You got this.’”

Laura Gassner Otting
Oh, God, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Like, one, it’s just sort of an annoying phraseology, like she was an English teacher.

Laura Gassner Otting
Yes, that’s not grammar.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, but much more deeply, it’s like, “Okay, you have no idea, like, what I got and what I don’t got. And you saying, ‘You got this’ is I get you try to be supportive, like that’s some encouragement.”

Laura Gassner Otting
It comes from a beautiful place but it is misfired.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and it often doesn’t feel great to receive that because exactly what you put your finger on is, like, we’re kind of rushing past the fact that this is a hard struggle with some suffering, and it’d be cool if you could be there with me, and maybe provide some practical support.

Laura Gassner Otting
So, I will say this, like it was beautiful to see how many people showed up for me, how many people did give me the “You got this” messages. It was wonderful to know and yet, also, it was hard. At the end of the whole thing, I didn’t even tell my family, like my husband and my kids, just how hard things had gotten for me because I didn’t have the energy to take care of them and their fear and their worry, and them wanting to take care of me.

And so, it’s a very interesting thing because you really do have no idea what somebody is going through. So, even the people living in my own house had no idea just how dark things had gotten inside. And I just think, I have a friend who he knows that I’m doing all these podcasts in advance of the book coming out, and he knows that I have this cold that you can hear so well right now. My apologies for that.

And he sent me a message, and he said, “How can I support you in this moment?” And I thought, “What a great question.” It’s not like, “You’re fine. You’ll be great. Power through.” He’s like, “How can I support you in this moment?” I was like it’s just somebody who is there to just keep you company. Sometimes you just need somebody to keep you company in your misery.

And to bring this back to work stuff, which is what the podcast is about, I think a lot of times in the work environment, we’ll have somebody who’s dealing with something that’s hard, and we want to fix it, we want to help them, we want to get through it because it’s awkward, it’s uncomfortable. But I think sometimes just saying, “What do you need right now? How can we support you in this moment? What do you need right now?”

And I think that really changes everything from “We need you to get better and solve the problem so you can get back to dealing with the work,” to, like, “You can be a full person here. You can be who you are and we respect that because we know you’re coming back stronger.”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really beautiful, Laura. And in terms of providing support, whether someone is going through the unique situation of Wonderhell in one of those three flavors, or in any number of other things. I remember when I was 15 years old, and my dad died suddenly, he was bicycling, he was hit by a truck.

Laura Gassner Otting
Oh, goodness.

Pete Mockaitis
So, that was tragic, and my mom said some of the most meaningful supports people offered, and it was that kind of a question. And what came about was, I was 15 years old, and someone said, “How can I support you?” and she said, “You know what, hey, you were a former driver, Zed,” props to my mom, she’s awesome. She just was able to identify and claim it, and so no, “Oh, no, no, I don’t want to be a bother or a burden.” It’s like, “No, you need it and take it in your time of need.”

She’s like, “Hey, my son is 15 years old, we got to get those state of Illinois 25 hours of driving to get a driver’s license. It’s very high stress for me, and you’re a pro, so could you please do some hours with him?” And he said yes, and so I spent some time driving with the dude, and that was super helpful. And then someone else, my mom said, “You know what, my kids love swimming, and you’ve got a cool pool. Like, would it be okay if, from time to time, they went there.” He’s like, “Absolutely. You could come anytime. I’ll let my family know and the neighbors know, and you just drop on in.” And that’s just really cool to have those little bits of support in that tough time.

Laura Gassner Otting
Yeah, think about how much more that meant to you than somebody dropping off teddy bears and fruit baskets at your house. I think about that all the time. Thank you for sharing that story, by the way. I’m honored that you shared that with me. There was a funeral in my neighborhood about three days ago. I was driving through the neighborhood and I don’t know the family.

But I was watching all these people walking up with baskets of food, and I was thinking to myself, “They’re probably going to throw out so much food at this house. The last thing somebody needs is somebody else’s homemade banana bread.

And I was thinking, “God, what would be great is to know, ‘What’s happening inside that house. Who are the kids? What do they need?’” The fact that your mom was able to ask that, I say to people all the time when they have newborn babies, I’m like, “Everybody’s going to come and be like, ‘What can I do for you?’ hand them the baby, and take a shower. Do whatever you need to do. When somebody asks, don’t be like, ‘No, no, it’s fine. Let me make you some lunch.’” You’re not there to entertain people, “Here’s the baby. I’ve done the entertaining. I had nine months of it. I made this baby. You can look at it while I take a shower.”

But I think we have to get better at asking, especially if people don’t know how to ask us. Think about how good that guy felt being able to take you to drive. Think about how good that person felt letting you use their pool. Like, it wasn’t hard for them. Think about the last time you helped somebody do anything. Think about how good you felt when you helped that person. Like, why are we stealing the gifts of helping from other people? I think we should look at it that way and not be so embarrassed to ask.

Now, I say that being here, sitting here on the edge of my book launch, and just dying and I’m asking people nonstop, “Please buy my book. Please buy my book. Please buy my book.” But every time somebody asks me to buy their book, I love it. I’m so excited to help them. So, I don’t know, I think we have to really be okay knowing that the person who is dropping in and trying to help us, even if they don’t know how they can help us just because they’re uncomfortable in the discomfort, not because they’re offering the thing that they want to offer. They’re just like stabbing in the dark.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s so good. And that’s hitting me in terms of I remember, I’m 15 years old and people, the first person who showed up with those aluminum foil casserole dishes at the door and just handed it to me.

Laura Gassner Otting
Mystery casseroles.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s, like, I was 15 and didn’t have lots of experiences with some of it, I didn’t even know what was happening. I was like, “Mom, someone came by and they gave us this food. So, I guess we’re having…”

Laura Gassner Otting
Very heavy mystery tin foil.

Pete Mockaitis
She had to explain, “Well, yes, Pete, when someone passes away, that’s the way people try to show support so that we don’t have to worry about cooking and stuff.” I was like, “Oh, okay, I guess that makes some sense.” And then a few days later, I was like, “Well, our freeze is sort of full so I don’t really know what we’re going to do with this.”

Laura Gassner Otting
Like, it really does come out of the best part of them, like it is the best sign of humanity that I know that people surround people in crises. We just have to be okay saying, “You know what would be better than that mystery casserole? Like, if you could just take my dog for a walk while I just sit in my living room and cry for a few minutes.” Sometimes that’s what we need to do.

Pete Mockaitis
That is perfect. And when you talked about books, I’m thinking about a mentor of mine in my episode one, Mawi Asgedom. He understood, he’d done books, he’s like, “All right, Pete, so here’s what’s going to happen. I’m going to buy ten of these books, and I’m going to send each of these to someone who I think could really be into this book and want to buy more and maybe book you for some speaking as you’re kind of entering this next phase.” I was like, “Well, that’s awesome. I could not have imagined or had the audacity to ask for that, but that is perfection. So, thank you for that, Mawi.”

Cool. Well, that’s an interesting little detour we’ve taken, Laura, how to be helpful and how to ask whether we’re in the midst of a Wonderhell or any number of needs that you or someone else has. That’s powerful stuff. Tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Laura Gassner Otting
Well, I would just say that Wonderhell is a sneaky little bastard that only presents itself to people who are worthy of it. So, if you’ve achieved something in your life, cool, I’m happy, and none of this is resonating with you, you’re probably where you are at the top of your potential, and that’s awesome. But my guess is that as you’re hearing it, you’re like, “Yeah, I have felt that.” And if you have felt a little bit of it, it’s because you are made of more. So, if you are feeling Wonderhell, it’s not a bad thing. It’s just a sign that you are capable of the thing that you can envision.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Now, could you share with us a favorite quote?

Laura Gassner Otting
There’s a Henry Rollins quote, and I don’t remember exactly what it is, but it goes something like, “There’s no down time, there’s no up time, there’s no work time, there’s no life time, there’s just time. So, get on with it.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or piece of research?

Laura Gassner Otting
So, my favorite piece of research right now is one that I actually quote in the book that says that, “People who flip a coin, and the coin flip tells them go, like do the thing, leave the marriage, take the new job, move across country, whatever the thing is, they are happier months and years later, regardless of the outcome of how that decision turned out than people who flipped the coin, and the coin told them to just stay where they are and not do something different.” So, this idea that action beats stagnation is fascinating to me.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Laura Gassner Otting
I think one of my favorite books is Ursula Hegi’s book Stones from the River. It’s a fiction book. And the reason I love it is that it’s a story of this woman named Trudy, she’s a zwerg, which is dwarf in German, and it’s a story of the history of the small town during World War II. And Trudy is one of those people who could be easily ignored because she’s a dwarf, and she’s not usual from everybody else.

And throughout the book, she actually is able to hide Jews in her attic, she’s able to hear German soldiers talking about what they’re going to be up to, and then get that information to the British resistance. Like, the whole book is about how she has overcome what the world thinks of her and defined for herself what her life is going to be, and created this big rich life out of it.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool?

Laura Gassner Otting
I love Notion. I love Notion. Notion is where I organize everything. But if you can look back there on my bookshelf, there’s a hammer that I won as being the fastest lightweight 40- to 49-year-old woman on an indoor rowing competition, a 2K competition. And the trophy that you get for it is a hammer because you’re supposed to drop the hammer. So, if we’re really literally, like, your mom would be proud talking about tools, that hammer.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Laura Gassner Otting
My favorite habit is having accountability buddies in everything that I do. I’m a motivational speaker but I will tell you that I think motivation is BS because if it’s 5:00 in the morning, and it’s 40 degrees outside, and I have to go for a 10-mile run, I’m not going to do it. I’m going to roll over, and I’m going to turn off my alarm because I am lazy, and I am girl from Miami who likes the warmth.

But if it is 4:00 in the morning and it is 20 degrees outside, and I told I was going to meet you for a 10-mile run, I will be there every single day of the week because I will always break a promise to myself, but I will never break a promise to you. So, my favorite habit is finding accountability buddies for everything that I want to do.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Laura Gassner Otting
Yeah, people quote back to me all the time, “Stop giving voice in your life to people who shouldn’t even have voices.” Like, all those people in our lives who we let give us all their opinions about who we should be and what we should be in, and how we should be in, and God forbid, what we can’t be, and we listen to all of them with equal volume when, in fact, most of them don’t know us, and they don’t know what they’re talking about anyway.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Laura Gassner Otting
Yes. So, my name is Laura Gassner Otting. All my good friends call me LGO, so you can find me on all the socials at heyLGO, and heyLGO.com is a shortcut to my website. You can also find out much more about Wonderhell at WonderHell.com or pick it up at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, anywhere fine books are sold.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Laura Gassner Otting
Yeah, my final call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs is to figure out whether or not everything that’s on your calendar, on your to-do list, in your email box is stuff that is furthering your goals and your callings or it’s furthering someone else’s. I would ask people to figure out whose dreams are you working for. And if those dreams are not your own, think about whether or not you should be doing something else.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Laura, this has been a treat. I wish you, the book, all the success.

Laura Gassner Otting
Thank you so much, Pete.