KF #29. Demonstrates Self-Awareness

Pete Mockaitis

Anita, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Anita Nowak

Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I’m stoked to hear about your book Purposeful Empathy: Tapping Our Hidden Superpower for Personal, Organizational, and Social Change. But, first, I want to hear about your travels. You’ve been to 65 countries. What is the story here?

Anita Nowak

Well, I just love being in a new place, meeting new people, having conversations that you wouldn’t expect to have in unusual spaces. So, I’ve traveled to Bhutan, and I’ve lived overseas in Thailand, and been to Morocco, and all over South America, now, 65 countries and counting. So, maybe, maybe, maybe hit 80 by the time I die.

Pete Mockaitis

And is there perhaps an underrated country or location you think people are missing out on and they should know about?

Anita Nowak

Well, I do think that Copenhagen has got the most beautiful people in the world, whether you’re eight months old or 88 years old. Men, women, everybody there is beautiful. And I don’t mean just physically beautiful. I just mean kind and considerate and they have great social policies, so I think Denmark is an underrated place to visit.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Thank you. I had an amazing trip to Lithuania, and I think, like, that should really be on people’s list, but it doesn’t seem to make it. But that’s my plug, Lithuania.

Anita Nowak

My husband is Georgian, and so we’ve, over the years, sent some friends over to Georgia. Tbilisi is a really cool city right now.

Pete Mockaitis

Nifty. Well, thank you. Well, now let’s hear about empathy. I guess you worked that muscle chatting with different folks in different places in 65 countries. Can you tell us a particularly surprising or counterintuitive insight discovery you’ve made along the way when it comes to this empathy stuff?

Anita Nowak
I think people don’t realize that practicing empathy is actually really good for you. So, the neuroscience is out, so they’ve studied what parts of our brain light up when we’re feeling pleasure and the rewards part of our brain. So, if we’re eating chocolate cake, that’s what lights up. If we just had a great orgasm, I’m not sure how they test that, but that part of the brain lights up. If you’re high on psychedelics, it’s the pleasure and reward centers that light up.

Same thing happens when you’re in an empathic embrace. If you’re in an emotional resonance with someone and feeling connected to somebody, that’s what lights up in the brain. And so, it sounds like practicing empathy is always about extending empathy and being empathic to others, it’s so altruistic, but, in fact, it’s the ultimate win-win when you practice empathy that you benefit, too, physiologically, spiritually, psychologically.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s cool. Well, that almost sounds like a thesis statement right there, but how would you articulate the big idea behind your book Purposeful Empathy?

Anita Nowak

Well, I think the world needs more empathy. We, in our lives, need more empathy. I think we’re born with the capacity to empathize and become more empathic with practice is possible and that it’s good for us. So, those are, like, the five levels of why I think we have to dial up the empathy in the world. There’s a few examples that I’d like to share just as an experiment.

When I was studying the neuroscience of empathy, this is what happened to me more than 10 years ago. I was in a lineup for a FedEx at a FedEx counter and over the holiday season. A long lineup, 30-minute wait, everybody was bored, frustrated, nobody had cellphones, it was a long time ago, so you didn’t have anything to distract you.

And I got up to the counter, and the woman who greeted me was extremely rude, I mean, really unnecessarily rude. And I had a reaction to her, like, “How dare you? Like, what’s up with you?” and I wanted to call her out on it, but because I’d been doing this reading about the practice of empathy, I decided to put it into practice, and this is all happening, like, in a matter of nanoseconds, but I just looked at her and I said, “Are you okay?”

And there was this little pregnant pause as she was trying to figure out whether or not I was being sincere, if I was being sarcastic, and she discerned that I was being earnest, and she just burst into tears. And she looked at me, and she said, “I’ve been working two weeks double shifts, my son is at home with a fever. I think I’m coming down with something. It’s 3:00 p.m., I haven’t had a lunch break. I’m just flat out exhausted.”

And we looked at each other, and I held her hands across the counter, and she was crying. And we just held space together. I went to get her a mint tea afterwards, and she got herself together and sent my package with efficiency and grace, but that moment of human connection was available to us just because I asked the question, “Are you okay?”

And so, I think that we’re living in a world right now where we are constantly stressed out and busy all the time, and triggered all over the place, and I think that leaning into our empathic proclivity is going to really save the world. It’ll help other people and it’ll also help us as we journey through life.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s cool. Well, so you mentioned a few benefits of being more empathic: increasing dopamine, reducing stress, boosting self-esteem, heightening the immune system, enriching our relationships. All that sounds swell. Could you share with us any particularly hard-hitting studies that made you go, “Whoa,” like they had some big numbers or transformational differences unfolding there?

Anita Nowak

Well, okay, there’s at work, but let me just start with Jamil Zaki’s work. He’s a professor at Stanford who studies empathy, has a great book on empathy, and his research looks at just having the belief that you can become more empathic actually changes our behavior so that we behave in more empathic ways. So, just thinking it’s possible is already important.

But if you’re asking about stats, I think this is kind of a really important set. I’ll share three stats for you, specific to the workplace, since that’s what’s your podcast is about, becoming better at your job. Right now, 78% of employees would work longer hours if they knew their employer cared about them. So, that’s four out of five employees that would work longer hours if they felt…

Pete Mockaitis

For no extra pay, just because.

Anita Nowak

For no extra pay, okay. Number two, so two out of three workers believed that empathy is critical to business success but only one out of five think it’s rewarded at work. So, they think it’s important but they don’t think that companies are paying attention, and I think that that is a really important gap that leaders and organizations need to pay attention to. And then at the C-suite level, 84% of CEOs believe that empathy drives better outcomes, but seven out of ten fear that they’d be less respected if they showed it at work. And that’s a problem.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m actually having a hard time imagining how I could show empathy and then be less respected. I’m trying to concoct a scenario. Can you give me one, Anita?

Anita Nowak
Well, okay, so an example that I talk about at the office, which has a six-step process to becoming sort of a more empathic leader is a scenario where, let’s say, you’re at your office desk and you’ve just read an email from someone in the organization, and it means that you’re going to have to cancel plans for the evening, or work late, or work on the weekend, or some KPI, you missed a KPI. You’re stressed. So, you’re reading an email and you are feeling personally triggered.

And a knock on the door comes in, and it’s your star performer that says, “Listen, I need to take a week off because my partner just had a miscarriage.” So, this could be a real-life example. It doesn’t have to be a miscarriage, but he needs time off. And so, how are you, as a leader, feeling your own stress about the email that you just read, able to sit down and really hold space for someone else?

Oftentimes, you go straight to the action plan. Oftentimes, it’s like, “Oh, I’m really sorry to hear that. Sit down for a minute. Okay, well, if you take a week off, here’s what we’ve got to do in order to finish that project that you’re not going to be able to work on.” But, in fact, there really is more to the story than just that.

There needs to be, from the leader’s perspective, self-awareness that you’re triggered to start with. And that happens in life. Forget about just in the leadership suite. This happens when you are in a conversation with somebody, and something gets heated up. You have to actually, like, recognize how you’re feeling.

So, have that self-awareness, and then begin to self-regulate, which should be a second step. So, take some breaths so that you actually can bring about the parasympathetic nervous system so you’re not feeling the stress hormones running but that you can actually soothe yourself through some big breaths. Then, as another step, you want to actually intentionally cross the bridge. I call it bridge-crossing where you’re, like, saying, “I’m stepping out of my own space, my own scenario, and I’m going to meet somebody where they’re at in order to perspective-take.”

So, when you’re listening to someone, often we are busy in our own head thinking how it relates to me, or we’re listening to respond and not listen to understand. So, if you really want to engage in some cognitive empathy, you really have to sit with the person and imagine what that situation is like for them. So, that’s all the pre-work to the purposeful empathy. Then, of course, is the empathic action that you take.

Now, in that scenario, it’s not usually likely as a leader that you should actually start troubleshooting in real time. When somebody comes into you with a problem like that, and they need to just share, holding the space for them and asking questions from a place of sincere curiosity, asking that cliché question of “How are you feeling about that?” giving them space to sort of just unburden themselves, then you could take time afterwards, and say, “How about we go circle back and talk about what the implications are?” That’s the empathic action that you take after the fact.

And then the sixth and final step is to actually practice some self-empathy, because we all need to replenish our batteries. Because if we’re busy being empathic all the time with everyone else, then we’re going to run on low energy and a big propensity for burnout and compassion fatigue. So, it’s really a matter of actually taking care of yourself.

So, if a leader does show empathy in that way, the process that I just described, you would be hard-pressed to say that somebody would be disrespectful. Imagine a leader feeling like, “They wouldn’t respect me. In fact, they would feel the opposite,” but not everybody does that. Not everybody manages their empathy quite that way.

Pete Mockaitis

So, what would be a poor attempt at empathy that could reduce respect?

Anita Nowak

Well, certainly, so using the same scenario, knock at the door, “Well, can we meet later about this?” That’s a tough one for somebody to hear. If they’re taking the time to knock on the door and share, like they probably had to gather up quite a bit of their own courage to come forward, so you make space for that, except if you really can’t self-regulate.

If you cannot, if you’re stuck in your own head, you can actually say, “You know what, John, I think this is such an important conversation that we’re having, and right now, I just need five minutes to go to the bathroom so that I can really be present for you.” So, taking a minute or two away from the circumstance so that you really can recalibrate is very, very important. And if you don’t do that, people can tell if you’re present for them.

Pete Mockaitis

Absolutely. Okay, well said. And can we recap those six steps here? What’s step one, two, three, four, five, six?

Anita Nowak

Sure. First one is self-awareness, knowing how you’re feeling. Number two, self-regulation, being able to bring down your triggers. Three is bridge-building, so you’re crossing the bridge, you’re really trying to get to the other side. Fourth, perspective-taking, so that’s active listening and imagining how someone is experiencing someone. Five is empathic action. What is the action you’re going to take that will be empathic for that person? And then six is practicing self-empathy.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. So much good stuff to dig into here. So, we’re using the word empathy a lot as well as the term hold space. So, can we just clearly define or identify what counts as, “Yup, this was an empathic conversation,” or, “That was not an empathic conversation”? What are sort of the fundamental difference-maker or ingredients that make the distinction?

Anita Nowak

Yeah, beautiful. So, there’s these four words that get conflated and treated as synonyms: pity, sympathy, compassion, and empathy. And I put them on a continuum in that order. And on the pity side is what defines pity is a power asymmetry embedded in a relationship. When you pity someone, you are necessarily looking down on them, “Oh, you poor person.” So, a lot of foreign aid, a lot of philanthropy is predicated on the very paternalistic pity paradigm.

As you make your way across the continuum, and you get to empathy, empathy, for me, is the innate trait that unites us in our shared humanity. And that means there is no power asymmetry. You look upon someone knowing that they share the same humanity, they deserve the same degree of respect, and they have the same intrinsic worth. They’re just in a different circumstance than you, but you could be in that circumstance where the universe is a different place, if you’re living in a parallel universe.

So, being empathic requires humility and requires us to really accept that we’re on the same journey of life together, having the same joys, having the same fears, having the same shared loves, that we share that common humanity. So, really, the important ingredient is that there’s not a looking down on somebody, “Oh, you poor person.”

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. So, that’s empathy. And then in terms of a specific conversation in which you said, “That was an empathic conversation,” or, “That was not…” I suppose, in some ways, that might be in the eye of the beholder, or the interlocutor, the person participating in the conversation, like, “I felt as though that person was connected to me, my emotions, what I was feeling, experiencing, and understood me. I felt seen.” Is that accurate or how would you grade the conversation?

Anita Nowak

Well, there are a couple of big ways that a conversation can feel un-empathic and that things slightly derail. One is that a person starts to problem-solve, and I’m guilty of that. Somebody is trying to unburden themselves, share a story, and instead of just holding the space, as you said before, and sitting with them, even through the uncomfortable quiets, that I start to respond with, “Have you tried this? Have you tried that?” and that’s not very useful most of the time, unless they’re asking, like, “What would you do?” then that’s an invitation to help problem-solve.

Another one is to hear a story and relate it back to yourself, “Oh, gosh, you remind me of,” or, “I know exactly what you’re thinking because that happened to me or my aunt,” or whatever. And those are two really hard ways to end an empathic connection but that we do very often, so we have to be really conscious of it.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. So, if we’re not doing that, if we’re not problem-solving, well, I guess you could also just be totally zoned out, like, “If I’m not problem-solving, and I’m not relating it back to me, but I’m also kind of just ‘Uh-uh,’ ‘Yeah,’ ‘Right,’ ‘Okay,’” I guess if you’re totally zoned out would be another way that you’re not empathetic.

Anita Nowak

Totally. And there’s research that’s showing just the presence of a mobile phone on a table actually distracts you something like by 50%. So, it’s like the old fashion, you go to a cocktail party, and you’re looking over somebody else’s shoulder, just that phone as a distraction is a real empathy breaker, too.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s right. Anita, I always wonder, because it feels so big in my pocket, when I sit down at the lunch table, where should I stick it? Because I’ve heard about this research, I was like, “This is uncomfortable in my hip but I don’t want to put it on the table because I’ve heard the research.”

Anita Nowak

Maybe restaurants should have Velcro under the table, and then give you a patch to put on your phone.

Pete Mockaitis

I will actually stick it under my leg.

Anita Nowak
Yeah, sure. That’s a good idea.

Pete Mockaitis

And then I’ll need to alternate because I’m off balanced for a while. So, okay. And I’m not about to get a phone holster. That’s not my style.

Anita Nowak

Your style a purse, no?

Pete Mockaitis

No, I’m not doing that either. Okay. So, there are some don’ts, don’t problem-solve, don’t say, “Oh, I know exactly how you feel. That happened to me,” dah, dah, dah, make it about me, don’t zone out, don’t have a phone there. Holding space, what does that mean?

Anita Nowak

What does holding space mean? It means to listen with the intention to understand and not the intention to respond.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And so, holding space, I’m almost imagining, like, a physical space in terms of I’ve got a beautiful clean kitchen island, and I enjoy beholding its emptiness, and yet it’s so tempting to stick anything and everything right there because it’s so convenient because it’s right there. But to hold the space would mean that, “Oh, no, no, we allow that emptiness to remain much like there’s emptiness in my own head of my own agenda.” That’s what I’m thinking about holding space. Are you thinking about that?

Anita Nowak

There’s a great practice, you can become certified as a practitioner of empathy circles, which I am, and it comes out of a place in California. I’ll make sure to get the notes on the website how to get there, for your listeners. Essentially, empathy circles work where you’re, let’s say, five people on a call on Zoom, or together in person, and you spend 60 minutes, 90 minutes, 120 minutes together doing this empathy circle, and it involves pairing.

So, let’s say the first pair, the listener and the speaker, and the other three are observers. And then throughout the entirety of the time, the pairing switches to different pairs so everybody has a chance to pair up differently. And so, let’s say you have four minutes as a pair to start talking about anything that is the prompt question. So, like, “Why is empathy is important in the world today?” could be the prompt question.

So, the first person will answer but not speak for four minutes on a roll, but actually speak in a bit of soundbites. So, they’ll speak, they’ll say something, and then the person who’s listening responds back, reflects back with what they hear. And then the speaker will continue with the next soundbite, and another reflection back, and it’ll go back and forth, back and forth.

[21:17]

Or, if there’s been a misunderstanding, the person who’s speaking will hear the responder reflect back something that’s not quite right, and then actually correct them until the person has reflected back, like, “Yeah, you got it now.” So, this goes back and forth, back and forth for four minutes, and then it’ll switch to another pair, and another pair, and another pair.

And the goal of this practice is actually to become a better listener. And I remember thinking about this, I’m like, “I’m a fairly good listener. This is not going to be tough at all.” And when you do that for half an hour, 45 minutes, an hour, or longer, not only when you’re an observer, as you’re listening to what somebody is saying and then saying, “Oh, that’s so interesting that that person reflecting back picked up on this, or emphasize that,” so you’re busy listening all the time.

But when you’re actually the active listener, reflecting back, you realize how much focus is involved in actually paying attention to what somebody is saying so that you’re not busy in your own head. You’re really listening and then reflecting back what you heard. So, this is an excellent, excellent practice to debunk the myth that we’re good listeners because we really aren’t.

So, another way to be empathic and to hold space for someone is not necessarily to sit in a dome of silence, but to reflect back, and sometimes even using the last few words of what somebody said, as mechanical and robotic as that might sound, actually really, really does help the person feel heard. And psychologists and therapists, who are doing one-on-one coaching or one-on-one therapy, know this all too well.

So, there’s this cliché, “So what I heard you say was…” dah, dah, dah, dah. You might not actually want to use that language but you do want to do the practice of reflecting back because it opens up for the person to be able to continue talking. It’s an open invitation.

Pete Mockaitis

It’s an open invitation.

Anita Nowak

Yup.

Pete Mockaitis

See what I did there, Anita?

Anita Nowak

Yup.

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah, okay. We had Chris Voss, the negotiation guy, talk about that as well in hostage negotiations that’s apparently super effective for folks because folks feel like, “You must have been listening at least somewhat in order to be capable of repeating those words.” That’s cool. Well, as you mentioned these empathy circles, that was my reaction, like, “Oh, boy, that sounds exhausting. An hour plus of straight listening, like I’m going to need a walk and a snack and a nap after that.”

Anita Nowak

I did have a headache.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. So, okay, understood. So, empathy, holding space, huge benefits. Lay it on us. I think, Anita, in my own experience of trying to be…well, hey, first of all, are empathetic and empathic synonymous or is there a distinction between these words, too?

Anita Nowak

Those are exact synonyms. Just some people prefer the extra syllable, and I do not.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. There we go. Well, empathic makes me think of Deanna Troi from Star Trek. It’s like, “Oh, you have superhuman powers? You’re an empath?” Okay. So, I find in my own attempts to be empathic, it’s interesting, like sometimes I’m just in the right emotional groove, and sometimes I’m not. And it almost feels like there’s a particular emotion, or state, or combination of interior elements that mean I am in an empathic groove and ready to rock and roll with that, and other times I’m just not.

So, is that typical of most people as they try to be more empathic? And what are these ingredients? And how do I conjure them up within myself?

Anita Nowak

I think it’s perfectly normal to have all of those emotions and not be constantly on the ready to be empathic and hold space for other people. We’re only human, and I’m perfectly flawed, too. I’m not always in a good mood and stressed. Our brains actually cannot be in a state of anxiety or stress and empathy simultaneously. It’s not possible to our brains.

So, we’re living in a society and working where we’re feeling a sort of either low-grade or mid-grade chronic state of stress and anxiety, which is why our empathy is so sorely lacking because our brain cannot do both at the same time. So, there are some practices that we can do to actually become more empathic with practice.

And it’s interesting that one of the slides that I use, if I’m doing a visual presentation, is I’m up in Montreal where it’s still winter. We’re expecting a big snowfall. So, imagine freshly fallen snow, and your kid, 10 years old, and you have to cross a football field to get to school in the morning. If you’re the first kid, you have to do the hard stomping across the snow, and if you’re the next typical kid or kids, you’re going to follow in the footsteps until the path is created. That’s a very simplified version of how our neural connections are formed too, and our neural pathways are formed.

When we’re born, we have very few neural pathways because we haven’t had a lot of thoughts, and we haven’t experienced a lot of life. But in those first few years of our life, we have exposure to so much, and our neural pathways get formed as a result of all the experiences that we have. And the more often we experience similar things, the thicker our synaptic connections and our neural pathways will be.

So, if you’re a child born into a family where there’s lots of harmony and love and nurturing, our neural pathways will develop differently than if we’re born into a family where there’s a lot of strife or stress or worst going on. So, you’ll know some people in your life as adults that have become very, very defensive just that’s their way of being. You can likely trace that back to some early experiences in life.

And when I first started reading about that, I was like, “Well, that’s just too bad for the children that are born in circumstances that are unfortunate.” But the neuroscience research says we don’t have to let that be prescriptive. We can become more empathic with practice. Just like you go to the gym and you do bicep curls and your muscle grows, we can change the neural pathways in our brain, it’s known as neuroplasticity.

And so, the story that I shared about the FedEx counter, as I was learning about neuroplasticity, I was like, “Okay, I’ve got to try being more empathic with practice.” And so, all day long, every day, we can find opportunities to engage in a little bit of purposeful empathy, and practice empathy on purpose. When you get to the doorway, even if you’re in a rush, hold it open for someone else. As a regular habit to do, all sorts of little things, like smiling and naming somebody who’s wearing a name tag, like actually using their name and making eye contact. Get off the phone, have a chat with the barista.

There are so many little minute ways that we can practice empathy on purpose and become more empathic. And the result, over time, is that we have a different reflex, and we respond more empathically organically. It’s like we’ve changed our patterns. But we are not living in a society right now that makes that easy to do, unfortunately.

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah, that’s hard-hitting. And so then, I’m looking for opportunities to be empathic. And then I suppose is it fair to say the common denominator in all of these is to sort of recognize the humanity of another person, like looking them in the eye, have a conversation, use their name, hold the door open? Is it fair to say that the common thread here is that I am just putting myself in their shoes and imagining their life experience, and entering into it?

Anita Nowak

Yeah. And so, I have a lot to say about the workplace, but just so that you understand the context of what I could share later, if you want me to dig into that, is that researchers who have studied our evolution as a species, point to empathy as the reason why we survived. So, 40,000 years ago, homo sapiens were not the only large-brain species wandering the planes. We had other large-brain species but they died off and we survived and thrived, and they point to empathy and collaboration as the key drivers for that.

So, how they figured that out is that whites of our eyes grew. We have huge whites compared to other mammals on the planet so that we could read each other’s facial expressions and eye expressions. And we know that. That still lives on. We go to meetings, somebody says something at a meeting that you’re, like, you think is stupid. You look at a colleague and you have a knowing glare, or with your best friend at the table when somebody’s flirting, or whatever. We know that.

Our facial hair dropped off, relatively speaking. Our testosterone dropped off, relatively speaking. We needed to find ways to communicate with each other and understand each other so that we could work together to fight against the circumstances of the day. So, it’s been part of us as a species to lean into empathy, and we need to do more of that today.

Another thing that I think is worth knowing is if you go back to the lineage six or eight million years ago, part of the great apes were descendants of the great apes. There are still two creatures that are much like us – the bonobos and the chimpanzees. Now, folks, the primatologists who have studied chimpanzee culture look at that and say, “Okay, they’re hierarchical by nature, they’re prone to violence, they actually have terrible acts of violence, including infanticide, and people say that’s part of us.” Our human nature is much like the chimpanzee.

But you’ve got somebody like Frans de Waal, a Dutch primatologist, who says, “I’ve studied bonobo culture for the last 50 years, and I think if more of us have studied bonobo culture, we’d realize that that’s what humanity is all about, because bonobos are nurturing, and collaborative, and compassionate by nature.”

They, literally, when they have problems, they don’t go into open warfare like their chimp friends. They actually make love not war. They’ll have like mass orgies to solve some problems. So, I think we have this belief that we are selfish by nature, and then, of course, some years ago, there was a book about this selfish gene. That’s all been debunked. We’re not selfish by nature. We are empathic by nature. We are collaborative by nature.

And it’s a story that’s untold. It’s not told enough in our culture. But if you give me permission to talk about why this all matters in the workplace, given that this podcast is how to be awesome at your job, I want to poke a little bit at, like, some major tectonic shifts that are happening in the workplace, and why empathy matters now more than ever.

Mental health crisis, America is the most overworked developed nation in the world, burnout rates all-time highs, we absolutely need empathic organizations to help with that. Then we’ve got everybody who’s been shaken by the pandemic. The workforce has got these new buzzwords. You’ve heard the Great Resignation, quiet quitting, bare minimum Mondays. Everybody is rethinking their relationship to work.

And if you are in a war for talent, you’ve got to have a more empathic culture to bring these people in and keep these people on.

Psychological safety. Nobody wants to feel shame at work, and everybody wants to feel a sense of belonging. But guess what’s happening? Political polarization is pulling us apart, and it’s costing people money, it’s costing companies money. This us versus them is coming, it’s seeping into the workplace, so we need to find opportunities for bridge-building. All of that takes empathy.

Fourth one, no surprise, the whole DEI conversation. So, in the face right now of growing diversity training backlash, which is happening, unfortunately, we can look to, like, empathy-based interventions as another alternative to kind of create more feelings of inclusion and to celebrate the diversity. And last is the Gen Z.

They have totally different values. They’re allergic to power-over. They value things like collaboration, sustainability, authenticity. And to attract the younger talent, we all need more empathy in the workplace. So, I think those are, really, it can’t be oversold as real things that matter to leaders and companies right now.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. So, empathy is huge for individuals and our health, it’s huge for organizations and being competitive and flourishing. We’ve talked about a couple ways we can be more empathic. Any other top practices you recommend people or teams or organizations adopt, as well as top practices you’d recommend we drop?

Anita Nowak

Okay. So, two things that I would invite you to think about in terms of dropping is Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, we all know from our Psych 101 class, a little triangle at the top with self-actualization. There’s this belief that once our basic needs are met, we eventually self-actualize. We become our full potential. And even he himself, before he died of a heart attack, said, “Oh, my gosh, how wrong was I to think that that was the end all, be all of what we could achieve.”

So, the first thing I would drop is that the epic mountain you want to actually climb to is self-actualization. In fact, he said it really is about self-transcendence, this idea of being of greater service and purpose to something outside yourself. And I think about, so I’ll read out three quotes from three famous people who are all luminaries that walked the earth.

Mother Teresa, “A life not lived for others is not a life.” Gandhi, “The best way to find yourself is to lose yourself in the service of others.” Dr. King, “Everyone can be great because everyone can serve.” So, there’s this notion that when we are living our best lives, we are in service to something greater than ourselves, that idea of trying to reach for self-transcendence, even though that’s a very fancy word, but just service to others, that is what purposeful empathy is about. It’s about extending, being helpful to other people. So, that’s one thing I would lose.

The thing that I would bring in is a tool called The Personal Values Assessment by the Barrett Values Center. So, we think we know what our values are, and I’m sure you’ve come across the work of Brene Brown. She wrote Dare to Lead. She has this exercise where there’s a hundred values on a sheet of paper, like on one of the pages of her book, and she has a three-step process.

She says, “Okay, read them all and circle the top ten that matter to you, not what you’re projecting onto yourself but what you actually really think are your core values.” So, you circle ten, I did that. Then she says, “Okay, now on a piece of paper, write the top five,” so I did. And then flipped the next page, and it’s like, “And now choose your top two values.” And then it gets really tough.

How do you choose between honesty and kindness? They’re both really important but some people value one over the other. It’s not one better than the other. It’s just that we all live different things. So, I think becoming aware of what our values are and being able to share with people in our lives and sort of align according to values, and then see differences and not see them necessarily as bad but just different, that’s a great practice to have.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Any others?

Anita Nowak

Any others. Well, I have been posting daily empathy posts for 2,414 days as of today, so it’s almost seven years of consecutive posting, and I’m posting only material that other people who talk about empathy are sharing. So, either research that’s out, reports that are out, there are so much to cull from that list.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, yeah. Well, now I’m thinking Brene Brown style. Can you share with me, if you move from 100 to two, can we move from these thousands to a couple others that are really potent?

Anita Nowak

So, the simple practice of meta, meta meditation. So, we all this fancy, all this mindful thinking, mindful living stuff. The meta is a Sanskrit word for loving-kindness, so it’s a simple practice. It’s a four-step process. You could close your eyes or just look down, and you think about people you love. And it’s easy to send them loving-kindness. You want them to have a good day, you want them to get green lights when they’re in a rush and in traffic. You want them to be healthy, happy, satisfied by life, all that good stuff.

So, you think about them for a minute, take a deep breath, then think about people you like, people you went to high school with that you wouldn’t mind seeing again, going on a camping trip with, maybe your colleagues or your classmates, people you like, and you send them loving-kindness. Great. You do that for a minute, take a deep breath.

Then the third group is strangers, people you’ll never meet ever in your life. You think about, I don’t know, a fisherman in Ecuador, you’ll never meet him, or the farmer in Saskatchewan whose wheat is in the bread that you ate with your toast this morning. Send them loving-kindness. And then the fourth and final group or person that you send loving-kindness to is somebody that’s hurt you, or disappointed you, or that really sees the world differently and triggers you.

And the practice of meta meditation is to actually flex your empathy muscle and build up the capacity to be kind to people even if you disagree with them or even if they’ve hurt you because it makes you a better person, and you just don’t know what they’re going through, and you don’t know what level of consciousness they’re living, how they’re living their life. So, that’s a great practice to have.

Pete Mockaitis

And, in practice, what am I doing as I send someone loving-kindness?

Anita Nowak

You’re just thinking the thoughts, so I’m like, “Pete, I hope that tonight you have a great dinner, and that you have a great sleep tonight, and tomorrow morning, you wake up refreshed and everything about the day goes smoothly for you.” You just send them whatever comes to mind about. Like, you just want them, you wish them well.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Thank you.

Anita Nowak

Another powerful exercise, if you want, is something that’s tough to do, you pair. Eye-gazing. So, a marital therapist say that a couple who’s having a problem, and they have to work through and find a compromise, if they do the practice of eye-gazing, they’ll have a better outcome than the couple who doesn’t. And I do this with all my students.

So, they sit in pairs, feet planted on the floor, palms up, facing up on the lap, you set a timer for 30 seconds, and you simply gaze into someone else’s eyes for 30 seconds. And it’s weird and awkward at first, and sometimes there’s lots of giggles and whatever, you get the heebie-jeebies off, you shake it off after the 30 seconds, you might tell each other how you’re feeling about it, how weird it is, and then you reset an alarm for another 90 seconds. So, in total, you’ve done two minutes of eye-gazing.

I’ve done this time and time and time and time again, and I can tell you, in a roomful of people, there’ll always be some that are crying. And in the debrief, you’ll hear people say, especially younger people, “I do not remember the last time I looked into someone else’s eyes like that. I don’t remember what it was like to feel seen like that. And it was so beautiful to communicate with somebody. I feel like I got to know them better in two little minutes.” So, it’s a very powerful practice.

Pete Mockaitis

I think I did this in a Landmark Forum or a Landmark Advance Class, and I haven’t thought about it in years and years, so you’re bringing me back, Anita. And I was, like, I’m pretty sure people were crying during that. And I think I was, too, but I don’t…it’s funny I don’t know why. It’s, like, help me out, Anita. What is really going on there?

Anita Nowak

Well, we lay down our defenses, and some things that are happening in our lives bubble up, and it’s that same, “Why do we have such big whites to our eyes?” Because we are meant to see each other, we’re meant to see each other, not just look at each other, but to see each other. And that’s why the frame, “The eyes are the windows to our soul,” we feel touched when we feel seen. We are touched when we feel heard. We want to be known by other people. We want to feel a sense of connection and belonging with other people, and that’s why empathy is our superpower.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it’s true. All those things are true. And, yet, staring into a total stranger’s eyes in a facilitated exercise for two minutes lights that up within us. That’s just so fascinating. All right. Okay, well, I guess now I got to ask about eye contact, in general. When I’m talking with someone, I imagine it’d be more empathic to have more eye contact. Is there too much? And how do you think about it?

Anita Nowak

Sure, especially depending on the cultural context that you’re in. Like, proper holding eye contact with somebody in Japan would be seen as, like, audacious and rude. So, yeah, you definitely don’t want to make that a universal claim. I think the idea of, like, eyes darting around, that look busy as if you’re not paying attention is a distraction, and this can be hurtful, especially depending on what somebody’s talking about.

But you don’t have to constantly hold somebody’s eye gaze for minutes and minutes at a stretch not blinking. No, it’s not meant to be work at all. And one of the things, if people have trouble actually looking into someone else’s eyes, because it does take a fair degree of vulnerability, I even practiced it as a teenager with my dad when he was yelling at me, and I didn’t want to cry, I would just look at sort of the spot between his eyes or I would look even at his receding hairline, which made it seem to him that I was looking at his eyes when I wasn’t. So, that’s a little bit of a hack.

Pete Mockaitis

This is a very detailed question on this but when I’m looking at someone’s eyes, it’s sort of actually difficult to fixate on two eyes at the same time. So, does it make an impact if I’m looking at the left eye or the right eye, or shifting?

Anita Nowak

Not to my knowledge, no. You just don’t want to go back and forth quickly, but it’s a natural thing to do. And people actually mirror each other. So, if you’re holding space and somebody feels really connected to you, you could do a movement where you put your hand on your chin, and watch the person in front of you do the same thing. We really reflect each other, and we have sort of this emotional contagion. So, the eye shifting is perfectly normal.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, Anita, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Anita Nowak

There’s always an opportunity to practice more empathy in the world all day long every day.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Anita Nowak

Sure. It’s actually two quotes in juxtaposition. One is a Polish poet, Stanislaw Lec, “Every snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty.” I think about that, it’s like, “Oh, I didn’t cause the problem,” “Oh, not my problem, not my responsibility,” versus St. Francis of Assisi who said, “All the darkness in the world cannot be extinguished by the light of a single candle.” So, I just like thinking about how you want to show up in the world. Are you somebody who’s just going to shrug and say, “Not my fault,” or are you going to show up as a light?

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Anita Nowak

Well, I think I’ve talked about both. I’ve talked about Frans de Waal, and bonobos, and Jamil Zaki, great work on how to become more empathic.

Pete Mockaitis

And a favorite book?

Anita Nowak

I love a few. I’m going to mention Daring Greatly by Brene Brown. I’m right now reading Marianne Williamson’s book called A Politics of Love. She’s just recently announced her run for President, and I think it’s going to be an important…she’s going to be an important voice in the next election cycle, this idea of a politics of love can be dismissed to our detriment.

Pete Mockaitis

And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Anita Nowak

Well, I mentioned that, too, The Personal Values Assessment by the Barrett Values Center. If you want to, you can fill it out, it’s free, and they’ll send you back an assessment about your personality type and the kind of person you are based on that assessment. It’s a great tool.

Pete Mockaitis

And a favorite habit?

Anita Nowak

Favorite habit? Drink two liters of water a day. I’m a work in progress.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really connects and resonates with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Anita Nowak

Yeah, I think so. Descartes famously said, “I think therefore I am.” And I want to offer instead “I empathize therefore I am.” I think that’s what makes us human.

Pete Mockaitis

And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Anita Nowak

Oh, please do. My website is AnitaNowak, spelled N-O-W-A-K dot com. Obviously, I have a podcast called Purposeful Empathy, and a YouTube series. I hope people would check that out. And on LinkedIn, I post my daily empathy posts, nearly seven years running now, so you’ll get your daily dose of empathy every day.

Pete Mockaitis

And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Anita Nowak

Do the eye-gazing with a boss or a colleague, and see what comes of it. And when you are having a conversation, be intentional about listening to understand and not listening to respond.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Anita, this has been a treat. Thank you and I wish you much empathy and goodness.

Anita Nowak

Thank you so much.

Pete Mockaitis
Morra, welcome back to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Morra Aarons-Mele
Pete, it’s awesome to be back.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I am so delighted to be chatting with you. And you mentioned you had some laryngitis, but you are summoning the power to chat with us, so I’m really touched. Thank you.

Morra Aarons-Mele
The podcast gods are speaking to me, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. That’s good. Well, hey, it has been 600-ish episodes since our last conversation. So, I’d love to hear if there have been any particularly extra-fascinating discoveries you’ve made about life, business, mental health, anxiety, or any or all of the above since we last chatted?

Morra Aarons-Mele
The reason why I’m talking to you today and why I wrote my new book, The Anxious Achiever is because last time I talked to you, I had a book called Hiding in the Bathroom, how to get out there when you’d rather stay home, and it was a guide for introverts or people with social anxiety who have big ambitions and big career dreams on really how to build that professional network, really ignore the phrases we all grow up with, like, “Never eat lunch alone,” and, “Crush it,” and all the things that people like me who are introverted and anxious don’t like to do, and really tap into our true selves and how we can sell and execute and start a business as well as any extroverted person out there.

And what I found, as I was talking about that book, I would talk about my own anxiety, I would talk about my decades-long struggle to manage not just my anxiety but also clinical depression, and people would instantly tune in. It was like a valve had opened. And this was before the pandemic even, but people wanted to talk about it.

They wanted a place to feel seen and heard, and talk about how their anxiety impacted their career, their leadership, their success, their dreams, their ambitions. And I pitched a podcast to the Harvard Business Review, I called it Anxious Ambition, and it really meant to get at that interplay, the tension, between those of us who feel almost powered by anxiety. Anxiety is our oxygen, as my friend, Jose, says.

And we only know how to drive ourselves through anxiety. We credit our anxiety with much of our success but it also takes such a toll on our mental health. We think, “I’m only going to get promoted if I work night and day, or if this is perfect, or if I just assume the worst is going to happen, and maybe the best will happen.” And we forget that anxiety becomes a habit and, along the way, we’re doing a lot of things that don’t work for us.

And I launched the show with Harvard Business Review in 2019, and it’s just been an incredible experience to touch base with so many people, including some famous people, who are anxious achievers, or who manage really serious mental health challenges, like bipolar, like obsessive compulsive disorder, or who are neurodivergent and have to work differently, and hear about their journeys and how they manage.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s powerful. Thank you for sharing that backdrop with us. And so, one takeaway right there, it seems, that by opening up, you didn’t have people shun you, or say, “Oh, I guess Morra can’t handle this opportunity because she’s broken,” but, no, just the opposite. Folks have opened up, and said, “Yes, I, too, am working through some things,” and they feel a sense of connection and are drawn to you and tune into you, and more doors have, in fact, opened up by you being vulnerable and sharing what’s going on there.

Morra Aarons-Mele
I have never, in my hundreds of interviews, met someone who said bad things happened when they opened up. Never.

Pete Mockaitis
There you go.

Morra Aarons-Mele
I interviewed a senior executive at Google, a VP at Google, who ran a huge piece of the tech organization, and he was an early, early voice on workplace mental health, and he said, “I actually think it helped me in my career.” He became sort of a leadership guru, and taught classes on leadership for all of Google. Like, he became a beacon in the organization.

I’ve heard other leaders credit their sort of accepting and managing and living through their mental health challenges as making them not just more successful but just more compassionate, more empathetic, more self-aware, all these qualities that we know people want from their leaders.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s powerful stuff, yes. All right. Well, Morra, that’s encouraging, exciting stuff to hear about that. And within your book, you had a fantastic endorsement by Andy Dunn, a Bonobos cofounder, who said, “Astonishing. Not just for anxious achievers. This book is for any human being who wants to transform their mental health.” I was like, “Ooh, that sounds like me and lots of us.”

Morra Aarons-Mele
Right.

Pete Mockaitis
So, can you share with us, maybe, a really cool story of someone who had some fears, some anxieties, or another mental health challenge, and then they found some transformation to that as well as their career?

Morra Aarons-Mele
Absolutely. I just interviewed a guy who, he’s not in the book, unfortunately, but I’m going to tell you his because it’s powerful. His name is Jimmy Horowitz, and to say he’s one of the most powerful man in Hollywood is not an overstatement. He is Vice Chairman for Business Affairs at NBC Universal, so it has about $150 billion market cap, very large company.

And not only that, Jimmy is really the business guy behind a lot of the movies we watch and the shows we watch, and the news we watch. He’s a negotiator. He makes deals. He makes things happen. And I talked to Jimmy about his own transformation as a very, very senior leader, acknowledging that he was depressed. And one of the things that he talked about, because he kept it secret for a long time, like a lot of people do when they’re going through mental health stuff. A lot of us keep secrets of many things at work. Sometimes it’s appropriate to keep that secret. We can talk about that later.

And Jimmy said that when he came clean, when he went public about his depression, he found that he conducted his business with a new more compassionate lens that created better outcomes. He’s a negotiator, like his job is to sit down with the Ari Emanuels of this world, like tough, tough Hollywood people and get deals done. But what he learned through his own really tough journey with clinical depression tuned him in to what his counterparties needed across the table, the outcome that was good for both of them. And that was something he had always tried to do but it was almost like his ears were reopened.

And with this staff, too. He said, “Before, I grew up in a culture where you never left before your boss left.” And doing a lot of work on his own mental health, and also being the executive sponsor of a broader mental health program at NBC Universal, showed him that’s not productive, that’s unhealthy. It’s not good for anybody, and there’s sort of a cascade of change.

And I just love that story because I think that we can all become more resilient, more powerful, when we go through something hard and learn from it, but it has such a powerful upstream and downstream effect on the people we work with, because when we’re anxious, depressed, struggling, we often act out on those around us unconsciously. We don’t even know we do it. And so, when you’re more aware, when you get a handle on this stuff, everyone benefits.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, that’s powerful. Well, so then it sounds like maybe we’ve covered this, but how would you articulate the big idea or main thesis of The Anxious Achiever: Turn Your Biggest Fears into Your Leadership Superpower?

Morra Aarons-Mele
The big idea is that anxiety is a normal human emotion, we all experience it from time to time. It’s part of leadership. In many ways, I joke leaders are paid to be anxious. Leaders are paid to look towards the future and plan for worst-case scenarios and sort of be vigilant. And that if you understand what your anxiety is trying to tell you, don’t run away from it. Don’t even try to control it. Just try to understand and learn from it. You can emerge more resilient, stronger, better at communicating, more self-aware, and also learn to channel your anxiety for when you really need it.

I think many of the people I have interviewed, and myself included, I’m not talking about hugely clinical anxiety where you can’t get out of bed and life is a day-to-day extreme challenge. I’ve been there. I have been there. I have been that person who, literally, cannot leave her bed because she’s so anxious. That’s not the kind of anxiety I’m talking about in the book. I’m talking about the anxiety in the middle of the spectrum that so many of us are experiencing right now because life is really uncertain and things feel scary, and we don’t feel like we have any control. That’s present for us.

When you really take the time to understand how it shows up for you, why, what’s triggering you at work, and how you react, you go through that work and it’s hard work and it takes practice. You then can understand when anxiety is showing up and you should go with it. Like, before a big event, before a speech, before a talk, you want to feel anxious, we need some anxiety, and when to basically tell your anxiety to buzz off because it’s not a good time.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that sounds super powerful. And I’m intrigued, the ‘buzz off.’ Sometimes I tell my emotions to do that and they don’t respond. How does this work, Morra?

Morra Aarons-Mele
I know, emotions are tricky. As told by a wonderful psychologist, Christine Runyan, in my book, anxiety is connected to our lizard brain. It is an ancient, ancient emotion because it helped keep us alive. Anxiety is basically a threat appraisal, a sense of something dangerous, and back in the cave days, that really could keep us alive because if we had a sense that something was rustling in the bushes, and we needed to run, that was good.

Nowadays, our bodies still get that sense that something dangerous is rustling in the bushes but that could be our 4:00 p.m. with Bill that we’re really dreading. We don’t have the ability at the base level to judge what’s a real threat and what’s not. And so, that’s why anxiety is really tricky because sometimes we feel it and we don’t even know why.

But it is through the process of noticing, naming your anxiety, and really tuning into it that you get to understand, “Wow, I’m really anxious right now. Why? Why did that name in that email inbox make me feel nauseous?” Did you ever have that happen? Like, you see someone’s name and you’re just like, “Oh, my God, no.” You feel nauseous and anxious, and you have to shut your laptop.

“Why do I get a migraine and feel very, very, very anxious before my Thursday p.m. staff meetings? What’s that trying to tell me? Why is this negotiation so hard? Why am I feeling like an impostor, like I don’t deserve it? Why do I instantly assume that this one piece of bad news means I’m going to get fired?”

Really interrogating why anxiety shows up for you, and it shows up for us all in different ways, and we all have different triggers of anxiety, begins the process of sort of unlocking it and gaining the ability to eventually be able to tell it, “You know what, it’s just a feeling. You can go away.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Morra, I’d love to get your take on that, that curiosity, that interrogation, that why. I think sometimes I might be too curious for my own good in this department, and as I dig into some of my emotions, I just amplify it more. I’m thinking about, often if I’m, like, really irritated by something, it’s like, “Oh, why am I so angry about that? Well, because it’s bull crap for all of these reasons.” And then I kind of get more worked up.

And then I think it’s also perhaps a tendency to try to solve rather than feel the feelings, as former consultant, guilty as charged, trying to do that.

Morra Aarons-Mele
Where’s your PowerPoint?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah, get some spreadsheets and segment that bad boy. So, yeah, I’d love your take on that. For those of us who are wired in this fashion, how do we navigate this curiosity most effectively?

Morra Aarons-Mele
Oh, my God. I found myself, just today, I really had sort of minor anxiety panic attack at about 11:00 and I couldn’t even figure out why. I just, all of a sudden, started shaking, and it was hard to breathe, and I couldn’t focus, and my hands were jittery. It was a lot of big emotion, and I was like, “What’s happening? You were just working on a spreadsheet.”

And I realized that I had gotten triggered by a bunch of the names on the spreadsheet who made me feel like I was an impostor and they were going to shame me if I reached out to them, that I was going to found out. That’s the thing, is that emotions happen mostly for a reason, and our challenge is that we want to instantly tamp down the uncomfortable ones, so you would instantly try to solve something because it’s uncomfortable for you.

And the work is not instantly doing whatever coping mechanism you want to do, whether it’s solving something, whether it’s getting at that Excel spreadsheet. My husband does that. He models everything out when he’s really uncomfortable. And to sit with it. If you’ve ever done therapy or meditation, what do they say? They say you have to ride the wave. The goal is not for the waves of life and its difficulty to stop coming. They’re going to keep coming. You’ve got learn how to surf the waves.

Pete Mockaitis
So, you mentioned the work, and understanding, and noticing, and naming, and tuning in. That’s cool. You also highlight a number of anxiety profiles in your book. Can you share some of those so that we can maybe get a jumpstart on some of this noticing?

Morra Aarons-Mele
Well, it’s really, really important to start noticing your thoughts when you get anxious. And we all have a tendency to get stuck in what are called thought traps. These are sometimes called cognitive distortions or automatic negative thoughts, and different people have their different sort of go-to thought traps. You may be someone who, when you feel anxious, you are a catastrophizer, you instantly assume the worst.

And what do you do when you assume the worst? You dive into action and drive your team crazy because you’re micromanaging them because you’re anxious about the worst thing happening. Or, do you avoid? You convince the worst is going come so you stick your head in the sand. Are you someone who gets perfectionistic when you’re anxious? Perfectionism and anxiety go together like peanut butter and jelly. We think perfectionism often is something that should be admired. It’s what the best people do.

And one of the things that I have learned in my study and research along the way is perfectionism is really often about anxiety. It’s that sense of, “If I’m not perfect, if I’m not the best, I’m not worth it. I’m a failure, and so I better become the best,” however that means to you, whether it’s overworking, or never stopping, or, again, micromanaging your team and driving them crazy. You may be someone who has impostor feelings, and it’s really common. I should say all of these are very, very common signs of anxiety and they become habits over time.

So, you may be someone who, when you’re anxious, you’re showing up at a new job for the first day, you feel like a fraud, you feel like you don’t belong. You may be someone who has a lot of social anxiety and, therefore, when you come into an arena where you feel uncomfortable or different, your mind goes to a place of, again, “I don’t belong. I’m not worth it. These people think I’m dumb,” whatever your greatest hits of negative thoughts and thought traps are.

And so, anxiety shows up for us in many, many different ways. It’s informed by our childhoods. It’s informed by the family systems we grew up in. One of the things that I talk about in the book is I think a really powerful thing for many of us anxious achievers, it’s the idea that you may be an over-functioner, that you may have grown up in a family where you were expected to do a lot, or you may have grown up too quickly, or had too much asked of you at a young age, and you’re used to just outperforming.

You’re used to just trying your best and making sure bad things don’t happen, and that can show up in your life and your career as someone who always takes control, who work super hard to make sure those bad things don’t happen. And that has a huge effect, again, on your colleagues, on your leadership. And so, we really, in the book, go in and look at things that inform what’s made you anxious, and also how it’s showing up for you.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then can you share, when it comes to if you have some unhealthy coping mechanisms that pop up, I’m particularly interested on how one tackles negative self-talk?

Morra Aarons-Mele
I would say that negative self-talk underlies all of this stuff. And so, again, your negative self-talk probably is personal to you. Like, we all have our negative self-talk. Mine is, “I’m lazy. I’m lazy and I don’t deserve this.” And part of what you have to do is you have to practice new self-talk.

And before you can do that, you need to make sure of a couple things. The first is sometimes we’re so anxious, we can’t even hear ourselves think, like any strategy that we would have that would involve using our cognition, like telling ourselves something, “It’s just not going to work,” because we’re super anxious, we’re worked up.

And that’s when breathing is really important. And I know we’ve all heard this a million times, that if you send your breath into your belly, and you exhale, it will make you less anxious and calm you down, but it’s really true. So, if you’re at a level of, like, “I’m so anxious, I really don’t even know if I can have a conversation with myself right now,” some breathing will help, physical things can help.

And then one of the things that I found really powerful for dealing with a negative self-talk is asking the self-talk, “Are you true?” And, again, anxiety can make us a little bit unreliable, so it’s good when you want to interrogate that self-talk to have facts or more neutral statements at the ready. That’s why it’s really great to have someone you can call, and say, “This 9:00 a.m. meeting means I’m going to get fired tomorrow because I never belonged in this job, and my boss has had it out for me, and I just haven’t worked hard enough, and I know that’s what this 9:00 a.m. meeting means.”

It’s really great to have someone you can call, and they’ll say, “Well, is that really true?” “I flobbed the slide in the huge presentation, and so that means my boss is never going to promote me.” “Is that really true? You’ve worked here for three years, and you’ve never made a mistake like that before. Do you really think that one wrong number in a slide means you’re going to get fired?” Our minds go to big places.

And so, trying to get a little distance, trying to get a little evidence against what you’re thinking, trying to have what psychologists would call a more balanced thought, these are all skills that you can use to slowly, slowly start to numb that really loud self-talk.

Pete Mockaitis
Ooh, Morra, you’ve got so many good things, and so many directions I want to go all at once, at least my favorite podcast or problem to have. When you mentioned having facts at the ready, that really resonated because, boy, I think I got it from a Tony Robbins book when I was a teenager. There’s a diagram with like a table with different legs for facts to support a belief. And I found it super useful.

I remember, in college, I had a bit of a rough patch because, in high school, I was winning, winning, winning so many things, Homecoming King, valedictorian, yadda, yadda, yadda. And then, in college, I just got a string of rejections, I was like, “What is going on?” And I remember, navigation has never been my strong suit, and I remember this so clearly, I was looking at a map, I’m getting old, I’m looking at map on paper while someone was driving, and I guess I gave some wrong answer as to when and where we should turn.

And then someone just snatched the map out of my hand, and I felt, “Ugh,” like I failed. And I guess that’s probably my thing, is that maybe it’s like perfectionist-ish in terms of like I’ve heard it called the idol of performance, like, “I want to do a great job. It doesn’t have to be perfect but it has to be excellent. And if I’m not doing an excellent job, it feels like my value is somehow diminished or I’m a loser.” And I know this is malarky, I know it’s foolishness, but sometimes it feels like it’s true, and that’s not pleasant. So, I guess that’s my mental health thing.

Morra Aarons-Mele
I’m sorry, I was going to say the famous trope is feelings are not facts but feelings often feel like facts.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, well said. Yeah, that’s true. Maybe it sounds much of a trope for me. It might be the first time I’ve heard it but I like that. And so, having your facts at the ready, I remember I wrote down just a list of accomplishments, like, “Okay, I know I feel like I’m screwing up right now, like I’m not doing so well, but, foundationally, it is a belief, based on real evidence, that I have achieved many things, and I am capable and competent.”

And so, I wrote it in this notebook, which I still have, and I don’t remember when I felt good enough to stop, but I think I have, like, 130 plus examples of achievements and things showing, like, “Okay,” and I referenced it numerous times, like, “Oh, man, I feel like a loser. I keep screwing up everything.” It’s like, “Everything, Pete? Let’s take a look. Let’s take a look. Hmm, I see 130 plus things that went quite well. So, all right.”

It really did help reframe things in terms of, “All right, this is a bummer, that these couple things haven’t worked out but the overall trend is pretty solid here.”

Morra Aarons-Mele
Oh, my gosh, that is like an A+ in cognitive reframing. That is amazing. I encourage people to do it. I call it a brag file or a clips file. You know how journalists will keep clips that they’ve written. It is so powerful. And, again, when you know where your sort of soft underbelly is and what’s going to set you off, you can have something at the ready that’s really going to help.

So, one of my real anxiety triggers is money, and when I ran a business for 11 years, I would get bad money news sometimes. It was either bad macroeconomic news, like banks failing, or it was, “We’re not going to make our numbers,” whatever. And I would instantly go from zero to a hundred in terms of catastrophe.

And I learned that I had to have my business partner, who’s great with numbers and not emotional around them, back me up and give me the more balanced and likely scenario. I needed to see those numbers on the page so I could stop thinking we were going bankrupt tomorrow.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s cool. I also love what you had to say about thought patterns and cognitive distortions. I’m thinking of Dr. David Burns, Feeling Good, Feeling Great.

Morra Aarons-Mele
Greatest.

Pete Mockaitis
Fantastic books. I recommend them. I’ve tried to get the good doctor on the show. I have to prompt this.

Morra Aarons-Mele
Me, too. I have, too.

Pete Mockaitis
Have you got him?

Morra Aarons-Mele
I have not.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, he’s a little elusive but anyone knows the guy, anyone who knows him, we’re after him. So, I think that’s one, I’ll just say look him up. He’s so good. But some of those cognitive distortions could be categorized, like catastrophizing or all-or-nothing thinking, and it’s amazing how they pop up so much. And I think, for me, one is called emotional reasoning in terms of, “Oh, because I’m angry or irritated, some bull crap must be afoot somewhere and I’m going to find it.” And now I’m looking for it so that I’m slanted and looking in that direction.

So, that is some eye-opening stuff. I’d love to hear, you said, “Is this true?” any other pro tips when your mind is acting a fool, how you kind of get closer to clarity and truth?

Morra Aarons-Mele
So, another tactic that I absolutely love, Dr. Angela Neal-Barnett at Kent State calls this the so-what chorus. And this is another sort of exercise you might get if you took cognitive behavioral therapy, “So, okay, I’m really, really, really upset because I got that negative comment in my 360, and, oh, my God, I’m just so mad at myself. Like, if I hadn’t done that, I wouldn’t have gotten that comment,” and that’s both emotional reasoning, it’s mental filtering. The rest of the 360 could’ve been great, and you’re fixated on that one negative comment, and you’re ruminating, you’re dwelling on it even though there’s nothing productive you can do about it now.

Something you can do, again, get distance, take the teeth out of the anxiety, is to say, “Okay, so the worst happens from this. I get that negative comment from the 360. It’s all my fault and my boss knocks me out of the running for promotion. So what? I’m not going to get promoted. So what? It’s going to be horrible. I’m going to be ashamed, everyone is going to look at me, like, ‘Why didn’t he get promoted?’ I’m going to earn less money. It’s just going to be awful. So what? I’m going to feel bad.”

And you play it out. And a lot of times, certainly in what we’re talking about now, the world is not ending. The so-what is manageable. And, again, it’s that process of building a muscle that lets you sit with discomfort, yeah, maybe you did screw up, maybe that comment on your 360 really hurts, but it’s there. And the more distance we can get from all the uncomfortable feelings around that the better.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. So, we look at the so-what, or the whys, or the implications repeatedly, and I suppose the bottom of all of them will probably be an emotion. Is that fair to say, like, “Oh, and then I’ll feel a certain way. Okay, that’s where the end of this chain goes. All right”?

Morra Aarons-Mele
It could be. Or, even if you play out, “So what? I’m going to get not promoted, and then I’m going to get layered, and then they’re going to want me to leave, and I’m not going to have a job.” You sort of play it out until you realize, “Okay, these are very unlikely but even if, God forbid, I lose my job, I could probably get another one.”

And so, it’s not saying that the bad feeling isn’t correct at some level. Life is hard and we’re messy and we make mistakes all the time. We’re human. I’m not telling you to pretend like everything is fine. But I want you to give it the proper weight and consideration because, often, when we’re anxious, things get very, very intense when they don’t need to be, to your point.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, Morra, I’d love it, before we shift gears and hear about your favorite things, if you have any other super favorite practices or tactics that make a world of difference in this stuff.

Morra Aarons-Mele
I think that one of the things that I have learned and has been powerful for me is really, really important if you’re working from home, and if you’re on a lot of Zoom. And if you’re not working from home, and you’re out and about, or going into an office every day, you probably have your corolla but research shows that anxiety shows up in our body. Anxiety is a 360 reaction.

And, often, one of the ways to start tuning into your anxiety is to pay attention to your body and notice how it feels throughout the day, and notice how it feels before you’re standing Thursday meeting with your boss. When does your heart start beating? When do your hands start shaking? Are you clenching your muscles? So many of us clench, we clench down, we make our bellies really, really hard, and we clench our wrists, and we clench our jaws because we’re anxious and we’re stressed.

Your body is an amazing way to start tapping into this stuff, and you’ll probably feel better, too, because a lot of us take out our feelings on our bodies, and that makes it even harder.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And any thoughts associated with indicators that might be great to seek therapy?

Morra Aarons-Mele
I believe everyone should be in therapy.

Pete Mockaitis
Ah, yes, no indicators to see. Just do it.

Morra Aarons-Mele
I know that there are too many access issues to count, and cost issues. I know that. We are in a crisis of shortage, but if you can, therapy unlocks so much. Self-awareness is, I just saw a survey, it’s the most-prized quality in leaders because self-aware leaders are better people to work with. And therapy is just like the quickest way to unlock a lot of self-awareness I know.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now, could you share with me a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Morra Aarons-Mele
My quote is a little bit basic but it’s “The perfect is enemy of the good.” It’s something that I tell myself every single day and that I sort of hold up as an ideal as I try to manage my own perfectionism, and just take a lot of the investment and emotion out of every single thing I do because it’s just not worth it.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Morra Aarons-Mele
Well, I was going to say Feeling Good, the Feeling Good handbook by Dr. David Burns. Another book I really love is the The Anxiety Toolkit by Dr. Alice Boyes. I love really, really practical approaches to managing anxiety. Again, not anxiety that is crippling and totally disabling, but anxiety that you’re noticing and that you want to try to get a handle on.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Morra Aarons-Mele
Something that I use to be awesome at my job is breathing. I have found, over the past year, when I was in a very dark place, that keeping an eye on my breathing throughout the day is one of the biggest indicators towards keeping me energized, keeping my body pain-free after sitting on all those Zooms, and really helping with my mood and my anxiety level. I really clench my belly and don’t breathe deep. I just keep it all in my chest and that sets up a world of problems for me. And so, to be awesome at my job, I have to pay attention to my breathing.

Pete Mockaitis
So, is there a favorite breath-work practice or ratio or style that you love?

Morra Aarons-Mele
I’m a 4-7-8 girl.

Pete Mockaitis
Is that for going to sleep?

Morra Aarons-Mele
No, some people use it for going to sleep, but, for me, it helps me relax because it’s a little bit longer. So, you can do four breaths in, hold it for seven, and then try to exhale slowly, ideally, through your nose, for eight beats.

Pete Mockaitis
Four seconds in, seven seconds hold, eight seconds out. All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Morra Aarons-Mele
I think that the title of my podcast and my book is something that people smile at and feel really seen by Anxious Achiever. Again, it sort of takes the teeth out of something that is hard for a lot of people to talk about. And I find that it gives people a smile and opens up doors.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Morra Aarons-Mele
Well, I would love them to buy my book wherever they like to buy books. I’d love you to check out my podcast. There are over a hundred episodes full of amazing leaders, experts, psychologists, cutting-edge thinking, stories, all about work and mental health. And if you want to send me a message on LinkedIn, I’ll always write back.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Morra Aarons-Mele
My final action is to really, really practice tuning in. So much of what we do at work is from habit, it’s reflexive behaviors that we’ve been doing for years, and they’re not behaviors that are suiting us or the people that we work with. The way to become more awesome at your job is to become aware, and it starts with tuning in to what you’re feeling and when, and how your body is feeling, and how you’re reacting.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Morra, thank you. This has been a treat. I wish you all the best.

Morra Aarons-Mele
Thanks so much, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Dan, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Dan Lyons
Well, thanks for having me. It’s nice to be with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to chat about the wisdom of your book STFU: The Power of Keeping Your Mouth Shut in an Endlessly Noisy World. But, first, I have to tell you this is fun for me because I have seen every episode of “Silicon Valley,” and I’d love to hear if you have any particularly fond memories or moments from your work on the show.

Dan Lyons
Well, the funny thing is I was on the writing staff, and we would come in for, I’ll say, 12 weeks or something before shooting began, and then I’d be gone, so I wasn’t ever really there. I think, once, I’ve stayed for a couple of weeks of shooting, so I never really saw the show get made. And one thing that struck me, because I’m not a career TV guy, was that one script that I worked on and delivered, when the episode came out, it had bits and pieces that resembled what was on the page.

Because I think what happens is you write it, then they do a table read that goes well or poorly or somewhat in between, and then they do another rewrite, and then they start shooting but then they tell on every take, tell these guys to improv, and so a lot of the improvised takes are better than what we wrote. And then it goes, it gets edited, and then at that point, they’re looking at the whole season. So, they’re moving things around that used to be in episode two are now in episode five.

So, I learned a lot about how TV gets made, and there were funny moments but, I tell you, it’s kind of a grind. You just sit there, and it’s, like, ten people in a room. Or, imagine, for 12 weeks, five days a week, in the longest business meeting you’ve ever been in, and, yeah, some of the people are really funny but also you spend a lot of time sort of agonizing trying to make plots work. Yeah, it sounds like ridiculous. It’s a lot of work. It’s that hard. But mostly you’re just sitting there dealing with boredom, so, anyway.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I wondered how that works in practice, and maybe different writer rooms have different kind of work vibes and styles and approaches. But I imagine it would be a little bit of a divide and conquer, like, “Okay, Dan, you go and write and bring it back.” But is it pretty much, “Nope, all of us are in the room together, slogging through each line of dialogue”?

Dan Lyons
Yeah, the latter. And I don’t know how all shows are, but there’s always a showrunner. And the showrunner really is the head writer and it’s his show. It’s, like, in our case, it was Alec Berg, who’s really a real veteran. And we would all sit around and fill whiteboards with ideas together, and then once we had an episode, it seemed like, “Okay, that’s all there,” Alec would go off and write a version of it in prose, not in screenplay format.

And then he would dish that out to person A, person B, or me, and say, “Okay, now go take this and put it into final draft, put it into screenplay format, and give it back.” And so, it wasn’t really writing. It was more talking and pitching ideas in the room.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, thank you for the inside scoop there.

Dan Lyons
I’ll tell you another thing I learned, which is, and I was always guilty of this myself. You’d watch a show and be like, “I think they’re wrestling with this and that and the commentary.” Every week on “Silicon Valley,” I think it was TechCrunch, or maybe it was another tech publication, would do a big essay. Oh, one was the one that Sarah Lacy had.

Anyway, they do this long, long piece about analyzing the story and who they thought this character was based and what the themes were. And I can tell you, nobody talked about themes or big ideas in the room. It was just joke, joke, joke, joke, joke, “How can we get more jokes? And what plot would be at least plausible?” And, yeah, nobody ever talked about big ideas, or grand themes, or doing satire.

There was some but, yeah, so they would ascribe meaning to these episodes, and I would read it and kind of crack up, going like, “I was there when we envisioned that. Believe me, that was…” so, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s funny and reassuring because I remember, as a youngster, when I was first learning about the very concept of a theme in literature, and I was skeptical from the get-go, it’s like, “Do you really think the author had that in mind the whole time when they were doing that?” And I think, in hindsight, my take on this now is like, “Okay, books like ‘1984’ or ‘Animal Farm’ like, okay, is straight up is allegorical. It’s just trying to say something.” But other things, it’s like, “I don’t know. Maybe he just wanted to write a cool story, and you just made that up.”

Dan Lyons
Yeah, you know, I taught creative writing and sort of literature after grad school at the University of Michigan. It always comes up, like, “Do you think the poet or the short-story writer of the novels meant that?” And I think sometimes, yeah, clearly, you know what they were trying to do, what the point is they’re trying to make with the story. But you get down to these details of, like, wordplay and stuff, and I actually came to believe, like, “I don’t care if the author meant that. It’s kind of interesting, so let’s just untangle that. Let’s talk about that because it’s kind of interesting.”

But, yeah, I wonder, too, intention, what was there, what wasn’t. Or, who said this? Oh, my son was telling me about this. Oh, no, maybe it was a painter, but he was asked to explain, “What’s this mean?” And he was like, “Well, if I could explain it in words, I wouldn’t need to paint it. It’s a painting, just look at that.” So, yeah, I don’t know.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And sometimes words are something that we just hold onto and keep our mouth shut. Tell us, this book STFU: The Power of Keeping Your Mouth Shut in an Endlessly Noisy World, any particularly surprising, fascinating, counterintuitive discoveries you made while putting this together?

Dan Lyons
Yeah. Well, I’ll tell you a couple. Well, this podcast is about how to be awesome at your job, so I’d talk more about listening. There are a couple of things up front that have to do with health and wellbeing, and the connections between how you speak and even, like, your immune system. There was this fantastic researcher at the University of Arizona, who, for the past 20 years, has been trying to study these connections between speech and other aspects of our lives and our physical and emotional wellbeing, and he’s making these incredible breakthroughs.

And he’s not ever really been written about. There are articles about when each of these studies comes out, but I spent a lot of time with him. He’s just a fascinating, fascinating guy.

Pete Mockaitis
And what’s his name?

Dan Lyons
Matthias Mehl, M-E-H-L.

Well, so I don’t know how I stumbled across him. I set out trying to figure out how to keep myself from talking too much, how to talk less because I had a problem with compulsive talking. And I started doing research, like, on two things, “Why do some people talk too much? And how can you fix it?” And I found these researchers who had created something called the talkaholic scale. It was a test you can take. The test, it’s in my book.

And I pegged the needle on talkaholic, just way, way up the charts. And then started trying to figure out, “Well, how do you fix that?” And so, I go off on this journey. And in that journey, I met Matthias Mehl. Because in the ‘90s, there was this book called The Female Brain that came out and talked about who talks more, men or women. And for centuries, the stereotype was always that women are the talkers and men don’t talk.

And The Female Brain came out and said, “Yeah, women speak 20,000 words a day, and men speak 6,000,” ballpark, and like 3x. And Matthias and some of the other people who were at…he was a grad student then at UT Austin, looked at that, and said, “That cannot be true. Those numbers cannot be true.” So, they built this little thing called the electronically activated recorder, or EAR, and, basically, the original was the primitive kind of like digital recording device, and maybe even tapes, with a thing attached to it that would turn it on at random intervals.

So, you had people carry this for a day or a few days, and it turns on and off, and on and off, and from that, you can extrapolate how many words a day they’re speaking. And what they found is, like, no difference. Men and women absolutely the same, both about 16,000 words a day. And, at the extremes, the highest talkers on the survey were all men, so it kind of blew this all up.

So, then he said, “Well, God, if we can study how many words you speak, why couldn’t we study what words you’re using or what kind of conversations you’re having?” So, they did the same thing but they tried to extract the character of your conversations. Then they tried to correlate that with happiness. So, they would have you carry the EAR device and they would calculate how many substantive conversations you had, how many really good conversations you had in a day, and how much of your talk would shift small talk and chitchat.

So, how much of your day is chitchat? And then they found that the people who had more good conversations and fewer bad conversations, or less small talk, turned out to be happier when they did self-scored reports of “How happy are you?” Then he said, “Wow, if people who have good conversations are happier, I wonder if they’re healthier?”

So, he did another passthrough, recorded all these people, then matched them to blood draws that measured their immune system, and found the same thing. Good conversations correlate with healthier immune systems or a lower risk of heart disease and inflammatory disease. And it’s gone a little beyond that, too.

But, yeah, it’s fascinating to think, and it sort of reinforced what I was thinking, that when I stopped just going blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and became intentional about my speech, and spoke less, yeah, I did get happier, I did feel better, and I thought it was just that I was not annoying people as much. But Matthias sort of said, “No, it really is a physical reaction.”

And his example, if you want to know what a good conversation is, is that it’s authentic and you’re being honest and transparent. And the best way he puts it to me is it’s the difference between saying, “Hey, how are you?” or saying, “Hey, how are you?” or, “Really, how are you?” Anyway, that was a huge thing. And I think it does apply to work because I think it’s one thing maybe we don’t always do at work is to really have deep substantive conversations.

And I don’t mean like talking about your personal life, but at work, really digging into really important things that I think probably makes a healthier workplace. I think a lot of the lessons that I learned that apply to individuals also can be applied to an organization.

Pete Mockaitis
Dan, that’s a lot of powerful stuff. And it’s sort of funny, as we’re speaking now, you say you’ve recovered from being a talkaholic.

Dan Lyons
Well, there it is, I just gave you an overly long answer to a simple question.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, no, as I contrast the conversation that we’re having now with videos we’ve seen of you being interviewed elsewhere, and from years past, it is like you have a different demeanor. So, it checked you out.

Dan Lyons
Do you think so?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Dan Lyons
Well, I don’t know because I…hmm.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, when you’re talking about “Silicon Valley,” the startups being a Ponzi scheme, I was like, “Wow, that guy is really going.” And it’s like, versus now, it does. It’s a different vibe in terms of just thoughtfully considering the pieces and the pacing. Yeah, I see the difference, Dan, for what that’s worth.

Dan Lyons
That’s good to know. My wife was very relieved that I did a lot of work on this. Can you imagine?

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, so far, fascinating, the quality of our conversations can determine the quality of our happiness and health. That’s cool right there. So, can you tell us, your subtitle is The Power of Keeping Your Mouth Shut in an Endlessly Noisy World, in addition to being happier and healthier, what else can folks, looking to be awesome at their jobs, get from keeping their mouth shut?

Dan Lyons
Well, I’ll tell you another story. I do a lot about listening, again, so if you’re not talking, obviously, you have the opportunity to listen. And it’s something very few people can do well, and I include myself on that. I don’t think I’m a great listener, although I’m working on it. So, I’ll tell you a story. When I wanted to learn how to listen, there’s an executive coach named Jerry Colonna, who, he’s called sometimes The Yoda of Silicon Valley, or The CEO Whisperer.

So, he works with CEOs, with startup founders, or sometimes big CEOs, and he does these, like, three-day intensely emotional bootcamps, and everybody ends up sobbing, talking about their shame and guilt. He really digs deep into this, but the biggest thing they teach in these workshops is how to listen. And I think it’s become pretty much conventional wisdom now that a leader needs to listen more than talk.

So, I called him up, I got an appointment with him, “Can you just teach me a couple of the techniques you use in a bootcamp? I can’t come to a bootcamp but what I wanted to exercise is what I would do while I was there, and give me a couple of quotes. As a journalist, just, like, give me a couple of good quotes.” And so, we get on the call, and it’s like this, on video, and say hi or whatever. And then I get my laptop, I had my keyboard here, and I’m ready to ask him questions, and he says, “Dan, all right, stop talking. Stop taking notes.” I mean, not talking. “Stop typing. Stop taking notes. Stop and just look at me.”

I’m like, “Oh, crap.” He’s like, “So, what are you thinking right now?” And I’m like, “Enough of a jerk. Well, I’m thinking I’m not going to get anything useful for my chapter.” And he’s like, “Okay, fine.” He’s not rattled by that. And he starts interviewing me, and the questions get more and more intense. And his final one is like, “What do you fear? What do you most fear? What are you afraid of?” And I end up telling him this thing that I probably told two people in my life, like my wife, and I don’t know if I’ve even told anyone else. Like, really deep.

And then I’m welled up, like I’m kind of crying on this call. And then we’re out of time. It’s 30 minutes.

Pete Mockaitis
“That’s how you listen, Dan.”

Dan Lyons
Yeah, right. Listen, dude, so I hang up. And he’s like, “We can book another half hour to do the interview.” And I was like, “Oh, yeah, yeah,” but I hang up and I was like, “No way am I ever getting near that guy ever again. Like, he’s a witch. I’m not getting near whatever he does.” But, also, I was kind of angry, because I was like, “Now, I got nothing. I wasted all this time.”

And then I realized what you just said, like, he didn’t tell me he’s listening. He just showed me how to do it, and then he showed me how devastating it can be, like how powerful it can be if you do it well. So, I keep encountering this in work. We have meetings, and someone says, like, “Let’s have a half hour,” and there’s five of us, and someone just throws up, “Let me share my screen,” and throws up a PowerPoint deck with eight zillion datapoints on it, and just talks for 30 minutes, and the rest of you just sits there, going, “Oh. Mm-hmm.”

Or, companies do all hands, and it’s just an hour and 90 minutes of slam, slam, slam, slides and then five minutes for questions. And I come to think that if you’re a boss or you’re just a manager with a few direct reports, or you’re the CEO of a company, like listening is probably the most powerful thing you can do. Just imagine, if you’re a CEO, all you do is talk, you never listen, you have no idea what’s going on in the business. You live in a bubble. So, yeah, I really, really became, like, born again about the power of listening.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Dan, that’s powerful stuff. And I’m thinking about times that I’ve really been listened to, and I’m thinking about this dude. His name is Corey McQuade, he was with the Northwestern Mutual Financial Network, and we’re just talking about insurance-y finance-life things. And so we did that in one meeting, and he was really listening, and he’s taking some notes, and then we had a follow-up meeting. He said, “You know, Pete, I heard you say duh, duh, duh, duh.”

And it was weird because it’s like, “I know I told you those things, and yet the fact that you internalized them, held them for this period of time, and are able to summarize, synthesize, represent, share implications, is like casting a spell on me.” It was wild.

Dan Lyons
Right. Yeah, it’s incredibly powerful. And it applies across all sorts of things. There’s research that I cite about working in sales, and how important listening is, talking less, asking questions, and then really listening. So, you’re not trying to sell something, you’re trying to figure out what the problem is that you can solve.

And there’s, like, a study where a company called Dong uses machine learning. They suck up, like, thousands of hours of sales calls, analyzed them down, and tell you your top performers, asked this many questions, speak this many words, or this percent of the conversation is them talking versus the other. Yeah, it’s phenomenal, like it crossed pretty much every aspect of your life. Like, for me, it’s more with my kids and my wife, but where I’ve seen amazing, amazing changes.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, so just keeping your mouth shut enables listening, although it doesn’t guarantee listening. Dan, can you share some pro tips on, once we’ve shut our mouths, what do we do in order to do great listening from there?

Dan Lyons
Right. So, there’s a concept that people call active listening, which means you’re not just hearing. You’re actually leaning in, you really have to listen, and it’s really, really hard to do. One expert says if you’re listening, really listening, for 30 minutes and you’re not exhausted at the end of it, then you weren’t listening hard enough.

So, yeah, it’s a skill, I think, you can develop, and there are exercises. Like, one is you and I would sit down and I think we pick three questions, and I ask you those three, and you answer them, and I think you speak for five minutes without being interrupted, and then we flip it. Maybe it’s just one question. Anyway, so we take turns.

And if you don’t use the whole five minutes, we still sit there in silence, like I don’t speak for five minutes, and we flip it around. And then you just talk about afterwards, like, “How did you feel when you were listening? How did you feel when you were talking?” So, you talk about the exercise.

There are other types, yeah, where it’s just pretty much a recall with the guy you mentioned, listen to someone talk for 10 minutes then write down everything he came up. Don’t take any notes while they’re talking, so you just listen, then you go write it down. And it’s amazing how little you remember, or you can get better at it. But I think it’s a skill you can develop.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, you just work it, there is practice.

Dan Lyons
You’re probably really good at it. I mean, to be a good interviewer, I think I’ve come to believe, I used to think it was about having great questions. I now think it’s about being a great listener, and then responding.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I think the advantage I have in this context is we’re blessed to have so many incoming pitches, and we proactively seek out other folks, so that, by the time we’re talking, I am so fascinated by what you have to say that it’s like I’m chomping at the bit to get all that wisdom.

Dan Lyons
You know, I’m the same way. I used to be a journalist for a long time, and it’s what I loved about the job. If you go meet fascinating people, they would talk to me because I came from a magazine, so they thought, “Okay.” And, yeah, just hear their stories, and I go back and write their stories. But, yeah, it was fascinating.

I still like that. Like this book was really me just calling all sorts of interesting people I interviewed. I found a psychologist who works with prisoners in California, and the big problem they had was when they get up for parole hearing, they start and they’re okay, but then they get a little provoked and they start talking too much, and they will basically blow their parole hearing.

And so, she works with these mostly guys, and to teach them how to breathe and relax, and how to not lose it during an interview, and how to just stay calm and under-talk.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, when it comes to keeping your mouth shut, we got better health, better happiness, better relationships, and the opportunity to listen really impact folks in a cool way and strengthen those connections. Well, now can you share with us how do we know if we are talking too much?

Dan Lyons
That is a really good question. In my case, I just knew that I was annoying people. I would leave a party and say to my wife, “Did I talk too much?” and she’d be like, “Yeah,” because it’s mostly driven by anxiety. So, I’d get anxious in a party and I would start talking, and then I just keep talking. One way you know you’re talking too much is if someone tells you, someone just says to you, “Hey, you really monologue too much. You should let other people get a word in.” I think a lot of people who really talk too much, basically, knows. A lot of people have said to me, “Oh, yeah, I want to read your book because I know I talk too much, it’s like a problem.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, they already know. It’s not we have to look for some special clues in terms of the body postures or body language of the people we’re talking to. You just got to know.

Dan Lyons
Or, you see people trying to pull away, you know what I mean. You’re talking, you realize…

Pete Mockaitis
Their feet are pointed away.

Dan Lyons
Yeah, they literally start to turn their body, or they go, “Oh, I’ve got to meet…” There are clues, and that’s a problem. Some people are such compulsive talkers, like, they don’t pick up on those cues. And so, I actually have a part of the book, too, about how to escape an over-talker. And there’s another version of an over-talker who’s the interrupter. So, how do you break the habit of interrupting? And then, also, how do you deal with someone who’s interrupting you?

Again, it’s almost always men. Men interrupt women constantly. The stats are incredible, and there’s just lots of research, it’s not like it’s one study that found this. But, yeah, so then it’s a lot of times men aren’t aware that they’re interrupting constantly until you record a conversation, and then show it to them, and they’re usually mortified.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. All right.  With the Gong Group that was doing that machine learning and data analyses on the high-performing sales folks, was there something like a magical ratio or range associated with questions asked or proportion listening?

Dan Lyons
The most successful sales reps asked 11 to 14 questions. Fewer than that and you’re not digging deep enough but more than that, and the call starts to feel like an interrogation.

Pete Mockaitis
And is that like in half an hour or what time are we thinking here?

Dan Lyons
They analyzed more than 500,000 calls. On the sales calls with the best close rates, where, one, in which reps knew how to keep quiet and ask questions instead of making a sales pitch, 11 to 14, they deduced the calls worked best and the questions are scattered throughout. And when a rep identifies three to four specific problems, no more, no fewer, that the customer needs to solve, the best reps made calls feel like conversations.

They spent 54% of the call listening, 46% talking. The worst reps talked 72% of the time. And I don’t have how long a call was to land those 11 to 14 questions. But, yeah, those are some interesting datapoints. I don’t know how prevalent the idea is. I think it’s an outdated idea that sales guys or salespeople just talk, talk, talk, they’re fast talkers, and they kind of twist your arms, I think.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think that my impression is that most sales folks are aware that they should ask questions and listen. And yet the common practice is often not as much that, even though that is the best practice that is published and known and promulgated. That’s my sense, anyway.

Dan Lyons
I think so, too. And I think that’s only because it’s really hard. Even if you know you should do it, it’s really difficult to do that well. And it’s a skill you really have to work on.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, let’s say we’re after those benefits of talking less where we clearly understand, “Okay, yup, I am talking too much,” can you break down for us, Dan, some of the key practices or step-by-steps to successfully talking less?

Dan Lyons
Yeah, I actually came up with five, that I guess you call them exercises, that I do. So, not every day, but I think of it like a workout that it’s, like, going to the gym and you don’t even have to do this all day every day. You might pick an hour or an opportunity to use one of these is how I view it. So, the first one I have is called ‘when possible, say nothing,’ which is very obvious, but it’s often very possible to say nothing when you’re checking out at the store. So, there are occasions where gabbers like me will start striking up a conversation with someone but you don’t really need to. So, that’s one I practice with.

Another one is mastering the power of the pause. So, it’s this idea that when you pause, it makes people uncomfortable, and can be uncomfortable for you to sit with a pause. There are some research that shows it only takes four seconds, a four-second break in a conversation for people to start feeling uncomfortable. So, if you can master that and live with that uncomfortable silence, you have a lot to gain.

Actually, even in public speaking, but in negotiations, for example, pauses are a really huge thing. And I interviewed a few master negotiators about just that, how to use a pause strategically in a negotiation.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Dan, that’s intriguing. So, four seconds of pause makes people uncomfortable. And so, are we saying, one, live with that yourself. But is it sometimes the right answer to, “Go ahead and have them feel uncomfortable in that pause”?

Dan Lyons
Well, no, no. Yeah, exactly right. So, like car salesmen, I think they’re trained to do this and to say, “Here’s the price,” and then sit. And according to one negotiator I interviewed, a woman in Boston, she’s brilliant, she’s like, “When they do this, people actually start negotiating against themselves. It’s often, too, with a job offer and a salary offer that you know it’s too low, and they’ll just sit there.”

So, if I hold ideas, you just do the same back, you go, “Well, hmm, I’ll think about that.” And she told me something evil, which is that, I don’t know if it’s all the time or at least once. She would practice on car salesmen because she felt like they were fair game, and they’re out there, and it’s like easy prey. They’re always available for practice. So, she would find, she’d get an offer for a bait-and-switch offer in the paper, or, no, flyer, “If you want to trade in your car, you can get this much and get this much of a deal on,” whatever new car it was, or some crazy offer you weren’t going to get.

And so, she walked in, and said, “Hey, I’m interested in this offer.” She told me, “I didn’t want to get a new car. I like my car. I have no desire to buy a new car.” She says, “Well, I saw this offer.” They said, “Well, you know, that’s…we can’t blah, blah, blah, we don’t have one of those. But what we can do blah.” And she was like, “No, I came in because there was an offer, so if you can give me this offer, I’ll buy the car.” And then she just waits.

And she said, “They’ll to, like, try stall you. They’ll go out back and talk to the manager. There is no manager.” Like, she worked in the car business, too. She’s like, “They’re not going there. They’re going to have a cup of coffee and just make you sit there.” So, she said, “I brought, like, a thermos and a book, and I would sit there and wait.” She’s like, “I picked a day when I’m just going to do this.”

And she said she knew it wasn’t going to end up in her buying a car, so it was really just sharpening her own skills, “Can I just go and sit with this quiet?” And, eventually, you go back and forth a few times, and they say, “Well, I guess you’re not going to get a car today. Bye.” But, yeah, so, using that discomfort. There’s a story, too, in the book of a guy who was making a big sale to, I don’t know, someone in charge of government in the Middle East to have a franchise to sell candy or chocolate in this country, and the salesman says, “Well, here’s the price,” and the guy says, “Hmm, that’s too high.”

So, the other guy just sat there. And the story goes, he sat there for 45 minutes, and then finally the customer said, “Okay, we have a deal.” Like, they just sat there. I like that. To me, it almost sounded like it can’t be true but, yeah. So, pauses are very powerful. I had other things where I tried to find, add silence to my life.

I found this stuff called forest bathing, which is you go out in the woods and you don’t really do much. You just sit in the forest, usually with a guide, which I found really good. I also think you should quit social media, if not completely, then almost, as much as you can. I think social media is creating mental illness at a societal level, which is also what pushes us all to talk too much. We live in this culture.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah, there are some spooky data, especially with teen and pre-teen girls. Ugh.

Dan Lyons
Yeah, right. But also it just, if you think about it, the model they have is “We need to keep you on the site as long as possible so you look at many ads as possible. How do we do that? Well, if you’re just reading, you’re not going to stay that engaged, so we need to get you talking, and sharing, and retweeting, and getting in arguments with people.”

So, the best way to get you engaged is make you angry. “So, we put stuff into your feed, we figure out using machine learning algorithms,” they know collecting thousands of datapoints about you, like down to “How long did you pause over that photo?” Everything. So, they know exactly how to provoke you. But the problem is then that anger you experience online carries with you back into your real life.

So, you get on this dopamine cycle if it feels good, and then you stop and you crave the dopamine, but you’re also creating this cycle of just epinephrine just flowing through your bloodstream all the time which causes all sorts of health problems. Like, for example, you notice how angry people are now compared to 20 years ago? And what’s changed in 20 years? The internet. Social media. So, yeah, I think if you can stay away from it.

I, actually, think there’s a larger problem of information overload, where there’s just so much stuff. I have statistics on how many movies or how many hours of entertainment Netflix is going to make this year. The number is crazy. So, we just have a lot coming at us, and I don’t think our brains have evolved as fast as the internet has.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, we got some silence, we got quitting social media. Any other key practices?

Dan Lyons
Well, the last one was learn how to listen, which we already talked about. But I tell you, I also interviewed a woman who runs this thing called the International Listening Association. I couldn’t imagine there is a thing like that. They have an annual conference. And I said, “What is this, like people walking around, not talking?” And she said, “Oh, everybody makes that joke.”

And she and I had become friends since then, but she also is a professor. She teaches a course in listening, like the whole course is just how to listen. And it turns out to be very powerful in that you can be interviewing someone, I found. I interviewed someone who’s really, really shy, like almost couldn’t get on the phone to talk, like really, really has social anxiety, so I knew that conversation is going to be difficult.

If I go in rapid-fire questions, blah, blah, blah, like that just going to just shut it down. And so, I had to really take a deep breath, ask my questions and not fire off the next question, just listen, and it kind of worked. And I told this professor about it, I said, “You know, it’s amazing is this woman. The more it went out, she became really fascinating. When she was super shy and uptight at first and really uptight, and by the end, she was laughing, and telling me stories and about her life and growing up.” And I said, “She was the most amazing person.”

And my friend, the professor, said, “That, actually, that’s what happens when you listen to people. They actually do become more interesting.” So, I was like, “Wow, that’s really powerful.”

Pete Mockaitis
And what’s the name of the professor?

Dan Lyons
Her name is Sandra Bodin-Lerner, that’s B-O-D-I-N dash L-E-R-N-E-R. I should introduce you. You might find her to be a really interesting guest. She first got a career, she was like a public-speaking coach for people in business. And now she does that, but she also does listening workshops in companies because they realize, “Oh, yeah, it’s not just about speaking well.”

At one point, she made, I think, it was really fascinating, and we talk a lot about sort of in companies now, of we need to have these difficult conversations. We need to have these conversations and reckon with big issues, but nobody ever tells us how to have a conversation. So, yeah, she’s a fascinating woman.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Well, tell me, Dan, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Dan Lyons
No, I’m all good. I appreciate you taking an interest in my book.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dan Lyons
Well, along the lines of this, Winston Churchill’s mother was named Jennie Jerome, and she once described…this is about listening, a story about listening. She once described the difference between having dinner with William Gladstone and Benjamin Disraeli, so two very big, important British politicians.

And she said, when she had dinner with Gladstone, “I left thinking that he was the cleverest man in England. When I had dinner with Disraeli, I left feeling that I was the cleverest woman.” And, to me, that always just summed up why listening works, what the effect it has on the other person.

Pete Mockaitis
And I imagine she liked the latter more afterwards.

Dan Lyons
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I believe so. Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Dan Lyons
Oh, I think it would be Matthias Mehl’s research about good conversations and the immune system. It’s a remarkable report.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Dan Lyons
I’ll just tell you what I’m reading right now, which is The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes. It’s, like, an unbelievable book. It’s huge. I guess, as a writer, I admire it because it won the Pulitzer Prize. Just the writing is amazing. Just the amount of research he did, and how he shaped into a narrative, into a story. It’s phenomenal.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be more awesome at your job?

Dan Lyons
Oh, at work you mean? Yeah, I’d become a big believer in notebooks. I got this while I was researching my book, reading Richard Branson’s book. And Richard Branson is a big believer in listening, and one thing he does is he always carries a notebook and a pen, and takes notes. And he says it’s one way to become a better learner, he forced himself to learn and write things down. And then also you have a record of every meeting you have. So, yeah, in the last two years, I’ve become really, really a believer in notebooks.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit, something you do that helps you be all the more awesome at your job?

Dan Lyons
I put sticky notes above my computer screen on the wall, and say things like “Quiet,” “Listen,” “Wrap it up.” I just put reminders not to talk too much. And that habit, it has helped me.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks?

Dan Lyons
Yeah, I think it is that the first beat of the book for me was talking less, listening more, speaking with intention, can do so much for you. It can make you happier, healthier, more successful, blah, blah, blah. The second thing I realized that I did not anticipate going in is that the real power of it is that you make the lives of people around you better. So, that’s the real ripple effect of this, and that was quite profound for me.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dan Lyons
Oh, my website DanLyons.io.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dan Lyons
Yeah, yeah. Next time you’re in a meeting, which will be tomorrow, you probably have eight tomorrow, see if you can listen more than talk. Oh, here’s a great exercise. If you’re on a Zoom call with one other person, if the person will agree to let you record the call, record the call, take the recording, send it to Rev.com, or something like that, have it transcribed.

Then print it out and you see, literally, in front of you, just in blocks of texts, how much you talked, how much the other person talked, and then keep trying to work on that so you’re less and less. That, to me, was like an eye-opening exercise and, yeah, I think a really good one to try. If you want to learn to listen more, talk less, that would be a great exercise.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Dan, this has been a treat. I wish you much fun as you keep your mouth shut.

Dan Lyons
Yeah, thanks for letting me talk for so long about not talking, but I appreciate it. Thank you.