KF #26. Being Resilient Archives - Page 10 of 18 - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Kristin, thanks for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Kristin Neff
Oh, thanks, Pete. Glad to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, we’ve got a lot of fun stuff to dig into. But one unique thing we learned about you in research is that you were featured in a documentary called “The Horse Boy.” What is this story all about?

Kristin Neff
Yeah. So, it was a crazy adventure my family took with my son. So, my son is autistic, and when he was very young, my ex-husband, his father, he had done a lot of work, Human Rights work, with various indigenous people. And so, we met some people like the bushmen from the Kalahari, and we noticed that my son kind of seemed to get better when he was around shamans, and they kind of worked on him, and he really seem to have an improvement in symptoms, and then my son also learned to talk on horseback, on the back of a horse.

“Okay, where in the world combines horses with shamanism?” And, of course, the answer was Mongolia because if that’s where the horse comes from and shamanism is in that region, so he got this crazy idea, “Why don’t we go to Mongolia and ride through, out of Mongolia, visiting shamans on horseback and see what it does for our son?”

And so, he talked me into it, and it was an amazing adventure. He actually did have a lot of improvements. Now, I don’t know why, maybe it’s just the family adventure and really new contacts that led to the improvements, but the whole idea was, “Can autism be an adventure as opposed to a death sentence?” And it really was an adventure.

And I have to say, you know, my son now, he’s 18, it’s just me and him now with us closed down in the pandemic, he’s the most amazing kid. He never complains. He’s so sweet. He’s so positive. He says things like, “Well, who knows, it may get better tomorrow.” He cleans up after me in the kitchen. He’s just such a wonderful soul. And part of me wonders, “Is that because when he was growing up, we never made his autism a pathology? We always just considered it a gift.” And, yeah, he’s truly amazing.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good to hear.

Kristin Neff
That’s my other life.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, so, that’s really cool, and thanks for sharing that. And a good perspective, I think, here, when your other life is as an expert on self-compassion. You sort of own that phrase or hyphenated word combo. So, what does that mean exactly and how is that helpful?

Kristin Neff
So, self-compassion is really just using the experience we have all the time of compassion for others, especially people we care about, doing a little U-turn, so we give ourselves compassion. So, it’s just treating yourself with kindness, support, care, concern, just like you would naturally do for others.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, that sounds like a good thing to do. Tell us, what is that in contrast to? If people were not self-compassionate, what are we?

Kristin Neff
Yeah. So, a lot of people are confused about self-compassion. They think it’s self-pity, or that it’s the same as self-esteem, or that it’s self-indulgent. It’s really none of those things, and there’s actually research to show that. It’s just simply a way of relating to yourself with kindness, care, and support. Now, most people actually, we show in my research, tend to be pretty self-critical, right? Most people, if you ask them, “Who are you more compassionate to, others or yourself?” a vast majority are more compassionate to others than themselves. So, really, self-compassion is a way of correcting that imbalance.

Instead of shaming ourselves because we aren’t perfect, or just feeling so isolated because our life isn’t going the way we want it to as if life is supposed to go exactly the way we want it to, we just kind of embrace our imperfection, we realize this is part of the shared human experience, and we support ourselves through.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, can you give us some maybe real-world examples in terms of when we’re speaking to ourselves in a self-critical way versus a self-compassionate way? Well, we’ll start with that, and I’ve got much more to dig into there.

Kristin Neff
Yeah. So, motivation is a really good context to see the difference between self-criticism and self-compassion because most people very naturally think that self-criticism is an effective motivator. And the thing is it kind of is, it’s kind of like a steam engine that burns coal. It’ll get you up the hill but it spits out a lot of smoke, right? So, self-criticism, although it can motivate us, it has unintended effects like we develop performance anxiety, “Because if I don’t do as well as I’d like to, I’m going to beat myself up.” We often develop fear of failure which can lead to things like procrastination, right? Oftentimes, when we fail, we just give up because we can’t handle risking, our sense of self again by trying.

So, self-compassion, on the other hand, it’s also very strong leaning to motivation, and more effective motivation than self-criticism. So, we try not because we’re unacceptable as we are, it’s simply because we care about ourselves. We want to achieve our best. And so, with that sense of unconditional safety, in other words, the bottom line is if you fail, you’re still going to be okay, “I will still love myself but I will try again because I care and I want to do better.”

And so, people are less likely to procrastinate, they’re less likely to develop anxiety, they actually perform better for that reason, and they don’t give up as easily, they have more grit. So, again, there’s a ton of research on this showing that it’s a better motivator than self-criticism.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, now, those are some nice benefits. So, more motivation, less procrastination, more grit, I think you said less anxiety, or maybe I just inferred that.

Kristin Neff
Yes. No, absolutely less anxiety, less depression.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you share, I love recent research and some data and some numbers, what is perhaps one of the most striking in terms of, “Ooh, those are really impressive results and numbers there” kind of study or research do you think folks who want to be awesome at their jobs would be impressed to hear about?

Kristin Neff
Yeah. Well, so here’s something pretty remarkable. Some people think that self-compassion is weak. Self-compassion, when the going gets tough, is remarkable source of resilience. So, I’ll just give you an example of the study looking at combat veterans who had come back from Iraq or Afghanistan. And so, they measured their self-compassion levels, these veterans, and they followed the veterans up for nine months. And they found that self-compassion, those soldiers with higher self-compassion, were much less likely to develop post-traumatic stress disorder.

But here’s the kicker. Self-compassion level was even a stronger predictor of how much action they had seen. So, in other words, in terms of how traumatized you are, more important than like how much action you saw, how much gore or violence you experienced, more important than that in terms of how traumatized you are, it’s, “How did you relate to yourself in the midst of that trauma. Were you an ally? Did you have your own back? Did you support yourself? Were you kind? Or do you tear yourself down?”

For instance, if you have shame, a lot of veterans, combat soldiers, have a lot of feelings of shame, like maybe what they’re doing is wrong, and they tear themselves down and they criticize themselves, and there’s a huge problem with attempted suicide among the veterans, but not those who have self-compassion. If you teach vets to have self-compassion, they’re much less likely to try to commit suicide. So, those are the types of really strong findings we get, really showing how strong it makes you. It makes you very strong.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s excellent. So, then with motivation, can you share one of those studies?

Kristin Neff
Yeah, I can. Okay. So, there’s a great study by a woman named, two of them, at UC Berkeley, my alma mater in California. And so, what they did is they had a group of undergraduates in their study, and they gave them a very hard vocabulary test that everyone failed. And so, they split these subjects, these undergraduates into three groups.

One group they told, they helped to be self-compassionate, “No, don’t beat yourself up about it. Everyone fails. It’s okay. We’re only human, right? So, just be kind to yourself.” Another group they didn’t say anything, they were just the neutral control. But the third group they said, “Hey, don’t worry about it. You must be smart. You got into Berkeley for goodness’ sakes,” so self-esteem boost condition.

And then the next step of the study was they gave the students a second test, and they said, “Okay. Well, here’s a second test. You can study as long as you want for this second vocabulary test.” And what they found was that the students who were told to be self-compassionate, they studied more, they studied longer, and they actually performed better on the test.

So, this kind of shows you, we talk so much about self-esteem, about self-confidence, it’s actually much more important just to be kind and supportive to yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
So, let’s zoom right into that example in terms of, okay, here I am, I took the test and it didn’t go awesomely. And I’ve got an opportunity to take another, and I am following self-compassion approaches. What would I say and/or do to myself?

Kristin Neff
Well, so first of all, what self-compassion does is it makes it okay to fail. And, more than that, it helps us recognize that we learn from failure, right? So, self-compassion allows us to have what they call learning goals as oppose to performance goals, “I want to do well so I can learn and grow,” as oppose to, “Because I need other people to like me.” Because when you have self-compassion, you don’t need other people to like you. Your sense of self-worth is a contingent another people approving of you, or you’re getting the grade you want, or the job performance evaluations you want, right?

And so, people might think, “Well, if I don’t care about my job performance evaluations, then why should I even keep trying?” The thing is you do still care about getting positive evaluations but your self-worth isn’t contingent on it. So, if you get a poor evaluation, or you fail a test, the idea is you can say to yourself, “Oh, first of all, hey, that hurt.” Kind of validating the fact that it hurts, “That hurt. But it’s okay. Everyone fails and everyone is imperfect. What can I learn from this situation? How can I grow from this?”

And then that orientation towards learning and growth because you want to do better, not because you have to be better to be a good enough person, but just because you want to do better because you care. That’s actually the engine that drives you to do better, and it’s more sustainable and it’s more effective.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Excellent. Well, so now, I don’t want to make this all about the coronavirus, but it’s top of mind for a lot of folks.

Kristin Neff
Sure, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think that’s kind of part of the context of why we thought your stuff would be just right for us right now. So, it was funny, just today as I was prepping, I read this Onion headline which just cracks me up, the parody newspaper there. It says, “Man Not Sure Why He Thought Most Psychologically Taxing Situation Of His Life Would Be The Thing To Make Him Productive.”

Kristin Neff
Right, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And then toward the end, it says, “I thought I’ll have all this energy and space to focus on my creative side, but I guess living with ever-present, crushing uncertainty and the knowledge that people all around me are dying wasn’t the stimulus I needed after all.”

And so, we had another guest, Liz Fosslien who shared a lovely graphic on LinkedIn about productivity, like, “Hey, how productive am I normally? How productive am I during an unprecedented global pandemic?” the bar chart is way shorter, it could fit. And so, I think that this is a common experience, I’m feeling it and others are as well, that, “Huh, here I have, in some ways, fewer obligations upon me,” this varies wildly person to person, but some people like, you know when plans get cancelled, you’re like, “Oh, hey, I guess I’m freed up well and away.” A lot of things have been cancelled, yet even those of us who are healthy and not attending to someone in a tough spot, physically, medically…

Kristin Neff
Or parents watching their kids.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly, yeah, can find ourselves with a malaise, a reduction of energy, productivity, etc., and can be hard on themselves as a result, like, “Come on, man. Where’s the juice? Where’s all the stuff you were crushing before? It’s uncrushed.” Can you comment on how do we deal with this in a self-compassionate way and what results might flow from that?

Kristin Neff
Yeah. So, it’s really important, I’ve actually, again, several programs helping people use self-compassion to deal with the anxiety about the pandemic. So, self-compassion actually has three main components. The first is mindfulness. In other words, we have to be willing to check in with ourselves, “How am I feeling?” I think what’s happening for a lot of people is they’re making sure they have enough groceries, they’re kind of getting through each day, they’re making sure they’re wearing their masks.

They’re really focused on keeping themselves safe but they haven’t paused to say, “Hey, this is really hard. I’m really fearful. Maybe I’m grieving, or I feel really stressed, or I feel lonely,” whatever it is you’re feeling. We kind of don’t do that U-turn to say, “Wow, I’m having a really hard time right now.” And you actually need to be mindful first in order to give yourself compassion.

And then, maybe toward their friends, they’re being supportive, or maybe to your elderly parents you’re being supportive, but often we forget to be supportive with ourselves. If ever there was a time when we need emotional support, where we need kindness, it’s right now. So, again, and that may be in the form of warm language with ourselves, a warm tone of voice, kind of reminding ourselves that we have our own backs, we can depend on ourselves, that we’re here. And that’s especially important because most of us feel really isolated, right?

One of the real benefits of self-compassion, again, is it connects to other people, it connects to humanity. So, the difference between self-pity and self-compassion, self-pity is, “Woe is me,” self-compassion is, “Yeah, life is hard for everyone. Everyone is imperfect. Everyone struggles,” right? It’s a much more balanced state of mind.

And so, sometimes we’re feeling lonely because we’re all alone in our house perhaps, but then it’s very easy nowadays to remember, “Hey, it’s not just me. There’s actually about 2 billion other people, or maybe 3 billion at this point, who are also struggling with the same situation.” So, even though physically we may be alone, emotionally, as long as we remember this, “Not just me,” we can actually feel more connected.

And so, just going through these three little steps: be mindful of your pain, being kind to yourself because it’s hard, and just remembering that you aren’t alone, this is bigger than you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. That is great. And I love it when you sort of talk of the internal mental self-talk stuff. Are there any really just like go-to, I don’t know, mantras, scripts, phrases that you love or you found to be work with love in terms of like breaking the pattern of, “You’re so stupid. Why did you do that? Aargh!” to quickly kind of regain control and put it on a better path?

Kristin Neff
Yes. So, everyone uses different language, and really the easiest way to find the language that works for you is to think, “What if I had a really loved close friend who was going through the exact same situation I’m going through?” And, actually, in this case, you probably do. “How would I talk to them?” So, me, I tend to be a little more, I don’t know, mushy, I guess you would call it, so I call myself sweetheart and darling, and my tone of voice is almost like a mother. I also have an autistic child so I’m very used to using that warm motherly tone.

But, for many people, that tone would make them gag, right? Some people maybe, “Hey, buck up. It’s going to be okay.” But there’s a difference between “Buck up. It’s going to be okay,” which is like, “You should be better,” and, “Hey, buck up. It’s going to be okay.” You know what it means?

Pete Mockaitis
So, the tone of voice of the voice inside your head matters.

Kristin Neff
It matters a lot.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Kristin Neff
And not only tone of voice but touch. So, the first two years of life we don’t have language, right? We can’t really communicate with our parents, so the two main ways we communicate with parents, that they communicate care to us is touch and tone of voice. And so, what we know is that warm tone of voice and soothing or supportive touch actually activates the parasympathetic nervous system, which means it calms us down, it makes us feel supported, it makes us feel safe.

So, you can put your hands on your heart, or on your stomach, or on your face as long as you wash your hands, or hug, or something like that, some sort of physical gesture that makes you feel safe and supported. And even if it seems a little odd at first and, I’ll admit it, it does seem odd at first, your body doesn’t really know the difference, right? So, it’s not that your body doesn’t know the difference between self and others, but your body reacts the same way when you give yourself supportive touch as when you give it to others, right?

And then, again, if you use a warm tone, that’s another way that your body just kind of naturally says, “Oh, okay. Relax, it’s safe.” So, really, just say, “What would I say to a dear friend?” and try that out, and that’s probably your best bet for language.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, and it’s funny, there are some different kinds of touch. I don’t know, in some of these interviews, I often go to humor, like The Onion. Now I’m thinking about a Key & Peele sketch where there’s a football player is really into patting people’s butts, but that might be it for you if you have that…

Kristin Neff
Maybe.

Pete Mockaitis
…career, or I’ve got one of those little headscratcher thingies, you know, these wires.

Kristin Neff
All right, yeah. That could be.

Pete Mockaitis
I think those feel awesome in terms of like, “Hmm.”

Kristin Neff
Headscratchers, or kind of fist bump on the chest, or something like that. Absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Okay. Well, so I want to make sure we also hit the notion of, you know, for the gunners, the achievers who are all about having high standards, high expectations, demanding excellence. How do these things square and work together?

Kristin Neff
Yeah, so the research shows that self-compassionate people, their standards are just as high as everyone else’s because high standards comes from wanting to reach your full potential, wanting to be happy, wanting to do your best. The huge difference is what happens when you don’t meet your standards? Because we’re human beings, sometimes we reach our standards, sometimes we don’t.

And so, if you’re very self-critical when you fall short of your standards, you might be like, “That’s not acceptable. You have to do better or else.” The threat is kind of like, “Or else I won’t love you, or else I’ll say mean things to you, or else I’ll hate you.” We say these to ourselves. And, again, that actually undermines our ability to do our best because it creates a sense of anxiety, right?

So, in other words, the drive to achieve doesn’t come from the self-criticism. The drive to achieve comes from the fact that we want to do our best. And so, when we stumble, which, by the way, I’m sure you’ve had a ton of people on the show saying, “Of course, we learn from our failures. That’s the best way we learn.” So, when we’re kind and supportive to ourselves, we remember that. And when we fail, we pick ourselves up and try again.

Now, having said this, sometimes the right response is to give up. Sometimes we’re barking up the wrong tree. Sometimes it’s good to change careers, for instance, if it’s just not really working out for you. That’s a matter of wisdom. You don’t want to be stupid with this, and say, “I’ve got to achieve every single goal I set out for myself.” We need wisdom to say, “Hey, that’s an achievable goal.” Or maybe another goal would be better for you. And so, with wisdom and kindness and encouragement it works.

So, I’ll give you an example. My son, he was actually homeschooled for most of his life, and I finally put him into public school, and his testing was kind of like treasure hunts. It wasn’t standard testing. So, the first test he had, World Geography test, he came home, he got an F. I mean, just like flat F. And so, I couldn’t try to motivate him with the way we often motivate ourselves, which is, “You stupid loser. You’ll never amount to anything.”

If you think about this, what would the effect of that be on him? It’s not like making him say, “Yes, I can do it.” Of course not. That’s going to make him feel shame and want to give up. And the same thing with ourselves. Often, really harsh language makes us feel shamed, and shame is not exactly a “get up and go” mind state.

So, what I did was, first of all, I gave him a hug, “Hey, it’s okay. Everyone fails. It’s just part of the learning process.” But did I leave it there? Of course not. I care about my son. I don’t want him to fail in his class. So, I called all his teachers, and I figured out what was going on. We realized there were some study methods that weren’t working for him so we changed his study methods. We also changed the way he took his tests and now he’s doing great.

And so, that’s what compassion gives you. It’s like bottom line, “It’s okay to fail. I still love myself. It’s unconditional. And, yet, because I care, I want to do my best so I’m going to use my wisdom to figure out how to do my best.” It’s not like, “I have to do my best or else.” It’s, “I really want you to do your best. How could I help?” And that supportive attitude is actually much more effective.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Excellent. And so, I think I’m picking up what you’re putting down there, and I think the tone is really interesting in terms of to just really…even though the voice inside your head is not audible, it has a tone.

Kristin Neff
Like, the self-critic does, doesn’t it? Some people say, “Oh, it seems so strange to talk to myself,” but it doesn’t seem strange when you beat yourself up, does it? It’s just that we’re used to that voice so we don’t even notice it, what’s going on in our head all the time. So, we’re just learning to have a second voice.

And, by the way, the self-critic does not want to get rid of that. Often, our self-critical thoughts point out places where we’re going wrong. It’s just ways that we’re trying to actually help ourselves to do better. It’s just not effective. So, we can say to our inner critic, “Oh, thank you for trying to help me. Got it. I hear you. And, now, how am I going to go about achieving that goal in a way that’s actually a little more conducive to success?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Kristin, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention regarding self-compassion and related subjects for those wanting to be awesome at their jobs?

Kristin Neff
Right. So, just, for instance, one of the things we know is that self-compassion enhances creativity. So, if you want to be awesome at your job, it’s important that you’re creative. But if you beat yourself up all the time, what we know is that negative mind state actually gets in the way of being creative and thinking out of the box. But, again, when the bottom line is, “I’m safe. I care about myself. And if I were to fail, it’s okay,” that sense of safety gives you more freedom to think out of the box and think creatively. So, it’s really useful in all sorts of ways, on the job, off the job. Really, any time you might experience challenge.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Lovely. Well, now, can you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Kristin Neff
Okay. Well, there’s a quote from Helen Keller that I love, and she says, “When one door of happiness closes, another usually opens. But we usually spend so long staring at the closed door, we don’t even see the one that has been opened for us.”

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you.

Kristin Neff
And so, self-compassion, that’s when we’re optimistic because we don’t just stare at the closed door, we kind of feel safe and then we can look around and say, “Oh, well, what other opportunities are here for me?”

Pete Mockaitis
And I think that’s excellent in the coronavirus context because, it’s true, some doors are closed and it sucks.

Kristin Neff
Exactly. It does suck.

Pete Mockaitis
And, yet, some other doors have opened. And so, you got to make sure you’re being fully aware and honest and making some prudent calls about where you’re pointing that attention, so thank you.

Kristin Neff
That’s right. On the other hand, it’s important also to give yourself compassion for the fact that it does suck. We don’t have to be chipper and positive. We can just take some time and say, “This is just really, really hard. This sucks. Oh.” And then that will actually help us get through it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. And how about a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Kristin Neff
So, a favorite study, experiment, or a bit of research. So, here’s one, very simple in terms of the fact that you really can change your self-compassion level. So, one study had people write a self-compassionate letter to themselves, which is just basically using mindfulness and kindness, and reminding themselves of their humanity. A letter for seven days straight. And they found that just that simple act of writing yourself a compassionate letter decreased depression for three months and increased happiness for six months. So, it had really long-term effects, a very simple practice like this.

So, this is something you can fold into your everyday life. You don’t actually have to write a letter. Just remembering these three components, just remembering mindfulness, common humanity, and kindness can make a huge difference in your life.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite book?

Kristin Neff
A favorite book. Well, I’m going to pick a book called “Radical Acceptance” by Tara Brach. She’s one of my favorite teachers. She’s actually a Buddhist meditation teacher. It’s just a beautiful book talking about, yeah, what happens, the transformation that happens when we just radically accept ourselves.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Kristin Neff
SPSS.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, great.

Kristin Neff
Which is a statistical program.

Pete Mockaitis
I’ve used it before. Oh, man, memories. Select cases. All right.

Kristin Neff
That’s right, yeah. So, you can calculate your P values. And P value doesn’t mean your enemy is like probability values, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
I was always terrified if I clicked one setting a little bit off it would ruin everything.

Kristin Neff
Yeah, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite habit, something you do that helps you be awesome at your job?

Kristin Neff
Well, I do yoga. I do Ashtanga yoga. So, I do that three times a week. And I find when I do that, it just really helps my energy out in more productive way and keeps me flexible. And so, I think that helps me, even though I sit in my chair all day for my job, I think it helps that I get out of the chair at least three times a week to do some Ashtanga yoga.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, we had a previous guest say Ashtanga yoga was amazing for making bodily pain disappear. Has that been your experience?

Kristin Neff
Well, it’s funny. I mean, I’m 53 and my body is in pretty good shape, and I don’t have a lot of chronic pain so I don’t know if that’s just good genes or what. But it’s worked out for me. It also makes you strong which is nice.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool.

Kristin Neff
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a particular nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate and get repeated back to you frequently?

Kristin Neff
Yeah. So, one of the nuggets I like to share, actually, along with my colleague Chris Germer, we developed something called The Mindful Self-Compassion Program. But the nugget is the goal of practice, whatever practice, meditation practice or just life practice, the goal of practice is simply to become a compassionate mess. If you make sure that’s your goal, that you don’t have to not be a mess, your goal is just to be a compassionate mess. Well, that’s an achievable goal, right? And so, if you start framing things that way, you realize, “Okay. Well, maybe my goal should be more about compassion than about getting everything perfect or right.”

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Kristin Neff
Well, just Google self-compassion. Like I say, I got in early so if you Google self-compassion, you can spell it any way you want to, you’ll find my website. And I have research on there, hundreds of articles. You can test your own self-compassion level with my scale I developed. You can practice exercises, there’s videos, so it’s really a one-stop shopping resource for self-compassion, and it’s all free.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Kristin Neff
Yes. So, really, I think it is around motivation. So, the next time you have a big work task, a big work challenge, just really pause and say, “How can I encourage and support myself to get this done?” especially if your habitual way of encouraging yourself is using the whip approach. See if you can change from the whip to support. Try it out and just see what happens.

Pete Mockaitis
That is lovely. And could you give us just a couple examples? Like, how can I support and challenge myself? Part of me, what I’m thinking, is I will decide a celebration after this is done, or I will break this task into a dozen tiny tasks so they feel more manageable, and I’m just like, “Okay, I can pull up that email. I can identify the three deliverables, and so forth.” So, anyway, those are my examples. What else do you see works?

Kristin Neff
Yeah. So, a lot of strategies are kind of more concrete strategies which are really great and really important in terms of actually how to do your work more effectively. But don’t underestimate your emotional state of mind and how that affects your ability to do your best, right? So, if you’re really tense, and you’re kind of like, “Oh, I’ve got to get this right.” That tension, that anxiety is actually going to undermine your ability to do your best.

But if your attitude is, “Hey, I got your back. I know you can do it. But, you know, if you make a mistake, that’s okay. That’s how you’re going to learn.” And that’s really the kind of self-compassionate mind state, “How can I learn from my mistakes?” And then if you try that, it actually will help you be less anxious, and you’ll actually be less likely to make mistakes. But if you do, you’ll be more likely to pick yourself up and try again. So, it’s really more how you relate to what you’re doing as opposed to what you’re doing.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, Kristin, thank you. This has been a treat. I wish you lots of luck in all your adventures and much kindness to yourself.

Kristin Neff
Ah, thank you, Pete. Be well and be safe.

Pete Mockaitis
Karl, thanks for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Karl Staib
Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to hear your take on gratitude. Maybe we can start off by hearing what are you most grateful for?

Karl Staib
Oh, that’s a great question. I’ve got so much. I wrote in my journal this morning and I’m grateful for my dog, I’ve got two wonderful boys, a really caring wife, and my brain. I think it’s important that I’ve been having a better relationship with my brain and the thoughts that go on behind the scenes as I get older.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. That’s cool. Well, so maybe let’s start by hearing when it comes to gratitude, if we can contextualize this a little bit, I mean, it’s a great thing to have, sure. But, specifically, how does that help us become more awesome at our jobs?

Karl Staib
Okay. So, it’s a really good question because I think just the act of being more grateful helps rewire how our brain thinks. And so, there’s numerous studies, but Edward Deci did a study and it basically talks about the positive interactions that we have either help us become more productive or reduce our productivity.

So, if we have six positive interactions, the one negative, we’re 31% more productive. If it’s three to one, we flatline. If it’s less than that, we decrease in productivity. So, right there it just shows the willingness to tackle things and stay on top of things.

And so, another study by David DeSteno talks about what happens when you are giving reinforcement, encouragement throughout the day or on a project. You’re 30% more likely to stick with it. And so those little things, when you fall down, when you make a mistake, you’re more likely to get back up and try again and keep at it and then you can thrive at work versus like kind of packing it in and not trying your best.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so that’s intriguing. Let’s talk about that first study. So, six to one positive interactions, did you say? And how are you defining the interaction?

Karl Staib
So, I take a little creative license. So, it’s interactions with other people. So, if you’re grateful for people at work and you show them that, it boosts. So, there’s another study that basically talks about if we work together and I stop by your desk, and I say, “Hey, Pete, this was amazing. Like, you put this extra slide in here, this bar graph showed exactly what we’re trying to illustrate. Thank you so much. This is fantastic.” And then you walk away like, “Damn, I’m hot stuff.” That is equivalent to getting paid more money. That’s how our brains work. We think, “Oh, wow! I just did something well for somebody that I really wanted to help.”

And so, if you think, as a boss, or even a coworker, if you can give people compliments, I mean, honest, genuine compliments, you’re going to have them feel better, work harder, and want to be around you.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great stuff. Well, I’m wondering, we have sort of a limited amount of control over whether or not we’re going to get some of these positive encouraging interactions from others. How do you recommend we, I don’t know, get more and do it yourself to the extent that’s possible?

Karl Staib
Oh, yeah, yeah. So, it’s important we don’t rely on these external validations completely. It is a good scorecard, right? So, if you go on to work and you don’t care and you basically hide in the corner, and you’re not very helpful, you know you’re not going a good job, you know that you’re not worthy of gratitude so even if somebody came up to you and gave you some appreciation, you probably wouldn’t believe them because you’re just like, “Ah, I’m just going to hide in the corner. I’m going to try to avoid work.” But the thing is it’s about the mindset. 

So, one of the biggest issues that I have is meetings at work. I despised them. It was a waste of time. I would tell all these stories inside my head as I was walking into the meeting and I was setting myself up for failure. And I remember when I started on this gratitude practice journey, my father was passing and it’s kind of what’s spurred me to start up my gratitude journal again. And when I did, I realized kind of a little bit of a switch going off inside me.

I remember a conversation with my dad before he was in the hospital and before he passed. We talked about it’s what you make of it, right? That’s one of the pieces of advice that he always emphasized to me. And I was taking it to heart. And because I was so tuned into, “Okay, I need to work on my mindset.”

My dad was one of my best friends, one of my confidantes, and so I knew that I wasn’t going to have this anymore and I didn’t want to go into depression. I had issues with depression in my past, especially in my 20s and early 30s. So, when I did some research, I knew gratitude helps in so many ways.

And so, as I started kind of diving back in and writing these bits of gratitude, I realized I was not grateful for going into these meetings. And those meetings are always opportunities, those are some of the best opportunities just to connect with other people, to go in and learn different things, and it doesn’t have to be about the project. It could be, “You know what, today I’m going to just practice being calm and focusing on my breath in this meeting.” And maybe that’s a meeting you’re not as involved in, right? You’re maybe on the outskirts.

And then there’s others that you say, “I’m going in. I’m going to ask one really poignant question. One question that I think could help maybe create a small little moment of, ‘Oh, I never thought of it that way before.’” So, when we start planting in those seeds and start being grateful for the moment before us, it makes it so much likely that we’re excited and that we try our best in that meeting, and then we make sure that whatever comes out of it we’re getting something and we’re appreciating whatever it is that we get out of it.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s interesting. So, in practice, what you’re doing inside your brain, at first, you might feel, “Oh, these meetings are stupid. They’re a waste of time. They drain my energy. They’re not any good.” And then you find a way to give meaning to them, like, “In this meeting, I’m going to do this, or I’m going to appreciate that, or I’m going to focus on my breathing or whatnots.” So, are there any kind of key questions you’re asking yourself? Because I imagine, when you’re in a bit of that funk, it’s kind of hard to just flip the switch. Is there any kind of transition questions you ask internally or things you do to make the jump?

Karl Staib
Oh, yeah. It’s a good way of framing. It is about questions, right? So, if I go in thinking, “Oh, how much is this meeting going to suck?” versus I go in thinking, “What can I learn from this meeting?” It’s very much like that fork in the road. You can go left, down that dark, scary, ghost-ridden pathway, or we can go to the right where the butterflies are flying around. But both ways are a path that we can take and this is where awareness comes in and you can say, “Wait a second. I notice myself asking, ‘How much is this going to suck?’ What if I ask myself a different question? What if I set myself up to see this in a different way?”

And you say, “What is one thing I can learn from this meeting? And after one hour, I’m going to write this down. I’m going to take a note and say, ‘I learned…’ whatever it is. I learned how to ask a better question. I learned how to pay attention to how somebody else talks and speaks.” And I’ve noticed like work is a lot more enjoyable when I’m engaged, when I’m creating that mindset that allows me to feel engaged.’”

Pete Mockaitis
And that’s interesting because you can say, if you’re watching closely to see what you can learn about how a person is presenting, you can learn things to do, like, “Ooh, that worked very well. I should do that.” And things not to do, like, “Oh, man, everyone was bored and paying no attention at this point. Note to self: Provide a slide headline that clearly articulates what is on that chart or something, for example.”

Karl Staib
Yes. Yes, exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
So, that’s handy. good or bad, you can turn that into learning and that’s a great question, “What’s one thing I can learn?” What are some other key questions that help point your focus in helpful ways?

Karl Staib
One of the most important things that I like to do is, you know, I suffer from anxiety. My palms sweat, I get choked up if a bunch of people are looking at me, so what I do is I say, “How can I focus on my breath and relax through this whole meeting?” And just planting that seed, and then what happens is subconsciously your brain starts to notice, like, “Are you getting a little tense?”

And it’s always going to happen. I’m never going to get rid of my anxiety but I can notice it, appreciate it, and then work with it, and it becomes a friend that having this dance with during this meeting instead of, “Oh, my God. I’m anxious. I don’t know what to do. Like, I’m freaking out.” And, all of a sudden, somebody calls on me and I’m so stuck in my head I don’t know what to say, I don’t know what to do.

And by saying, “Okay, how can I relax throughout this meeting? And how can I notice when I get tense?” And, all of a sudden, you start to be more aware, and you can say, “Oh, take one deep breath right now.” And it’s done wonders for me. It’s really helped me with my anxiety in meetings.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, there’s a bit of a problem-solving focus there, so, “How can I notice? How can I relax?” And then you’re getting a chance to experiment and get better at something. That’s cool. Any other great questions?

Karl Staib
Oh, man. I think one of the most important things is how do you like to stay engaged. You might say, “Well, what’s the best way for me to take notes?” That simple phrase, right? Like, “What’s the best way for me to take notes?” will allow you to think, “Well, maybe I’ll try doing visual notes this time.”

Whatever it is, now you’re retaining more of that meeting and you’re more engaged as well. So, when you do need to ask the question, it’s easy to recall if someone does ask you a question, you’re on it because you’ve been in that mode of, “I know what’s going on. I know what the context is and I can really shine in this moment.”

Pete Mockaitis
And so, when it comes to gratitude, you define three different levels. Can you unpack this for us?

Karl Staib
Yeah. So, as I’ve been digging into gratitude and really understanding the research behind it, I realized most people just think of gratitude as an external thing. And so, I started unpacking it and I realized a lot of my studies through Buddhism, through Zen, Christianity, I realized it goes much deeper than that and it starts with surrounding gratitude.

Surrounding gratitude is the things around you: your computer, the glass of water, your cup of coffee. It’s very easy to say, “Oh, yeah, this is delicious cup of coffee and it helps boost my energy.” Now that is a very straightforward thing that most of us do kind of automatically and very subconsciously but it gets a little harder with the next one, and it’s sharing gratitude.

And sharing gratitude can create a bit of awkwardness inside a conversation with somebody else at work. If you walk up to them and tell them how good they are, they could feel embarrassed by that, they might not have the reaction that you planned that they did, and so it gets a little hairier and so we don’t do it as often as we should. We’re a little afraid to compliment somebody. Most of us are very bad at receiving compliments.

We struggle with celebration when it doesn’t fit into the norms of our culture, the small bits of celebration that we should be doing. I don’t know about you, but if I write a great email, sometimes they take a while, maybe an hour, hour and a half, like I do a little dance after that. And I’ve built that into my day to help me feel grateful for that moment, for that time that I spent to really make sure that message was conveyed that I hope it would.

And so, that is where it starts to get a little bit trickier because that’s where self-gratitude comes in, and that’s that third component. And we don’t treat ourselves usually very nice. I like to call it the inner bully. We beat ourselves up. We call ourselves names. We don’t think about all the hard work. I mean, let me ask you, Pete, just a year, two years ago, how far have you come since then?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, boy. Oh, it’s been a crazy two years. Two kids, home purchase and maintenance, podcast growth. Real far. It’s kind of exhausting.

Karl Staib
Yeah. And it’s hard, right? Like, I can feel your reluctance coming through. You’re just like, “I almost even don’t want to go there, right?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I mean, there’s been a lot of improvement and growth and some cool ways and not as much sleep but I guess that’s what happens with kids in due time. My wife is a saint. She’s been doing less sleeping than I have. But, yeah, lots of improvement and I’m glad for it. I’m sure glad that we got those kids and podcast listeners and all the other blessings.

Karl Staib
And do you celebrate that? Do you celebrate yourself as a father, as a husband? Do you have any cadence around that?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, kind of. I think that I had a great podcast conversation with BJ Fogg talking about forming great habits. And he talked about celebration is really important to building those habits, and it could be as simple as saying, “I’m awesome.” And one of mine comes from Mortal Kombat II when you defeat your opponent while taking zero damage, it says, “Flawless victory.” So, that was a little affirmation celebration I got when I beat my brother in a video game as a youngster.

And so sometimes I will trot that out and occasionally I’ll just take the time to play some celebration music, like if we got a sale, like I might go play the song, “Whoomp There It Is.” This is like, “I’ve been waiting for that email. And there it is.” So, yeah, BJ said I was a natural celebrator. But not every day am I natural celebrator. It comes and goes.

Karl Staib
Yeah. And so, it’s one of those things, right? When you look at your life and you look at how far you’ve come, this is important. Hopefully, people who are listening right now really understand it’s great. Let’s say you’re at work, and you have to think about how we talk to ourselves internally. But let’s say, for example, you go up to somebody at work, and you say, “Man, you’re awesome.” Now, I kind of call that a level one gratitude, right? Like, it’s nice, it’s good to hear, but if it’s not specific, a lot of times you’d easily forget it. And this is what’s really important about gratitude and really help to rewire those neurons is to go a little bit deeper if possible when you have the time. And it’s why I suggest people keep a gratitude journal at the end of the day. So, usually what we remember is the most impactful part of our day and the things at the end of the day.

So, if you take some time and write three things you’re grateful for at the end of the day, you can do this at the end of the work day, this helps too because if you get into that routine. But the closer you can do it to bedtime the better because what happens is that’s the stuff that will solidify in your brain as you sleep. So, you’re tightening these neurons and making it easier to access the next day and the next day after that, which is really important because if you can be grateful before bed, you’re going to be more grateful throughout the day.

And so, as you’re more grateful throughout the day, it makes life more enjoyable and it helps lower your stress so you’re going to be healthier because of it. But what’s really important is your what and your why. What are you grateful for? And why? And so, this is where I think a lot of people get tripped up on their gratitude journal because they’re like, “What? Oh, I’m grateful for my cup of coffee. I’m grateful for my wife.” And it gets just to the surface. But, why? Why are you grateful for your wife? Can you give me, why are you grateful for your wife?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, she’s just so, so there’s so many things. I’d say, well, hey, we just talked about sleep. I’m grateful that she frequently sacrifices sleep in order to take care of nighttime wakeups from the kiddos, and it keeps me from feeling like a miserable zombie the following day because she’s handling that important responsibility. So, I guess that’d be one specific why.

Karl Staib
Yeah, so that specific why help deepen that experience for yourself. It helped put that into your subconscious a little bit deeper than, “I’m grateful for my wife,” or, “Hey, she’s awesome.” And that’s the stuff that’s then easier to recall. So, one of the best ways to get ahead at work, and this is a little hack, is being grateful for other people.

And so, try not to focus on yourself. The idea is just focus on other people and why you’re grateful for them, and try to express this gratitude in front of other people. And when you do this, remember it’s important to be genuine here because people can tell when you’re not. But if I work with you, Pete, and I say in a meeting with my boss or our boss, maybe you’re not there, but I say, “Man, Pete’s been awesome. Like, as soon as I ask for help, he turned around this email, or this design, or whatever it is, in just a few hours, and it was so good.”

Now, what the boss will remember is you complimenting that person, but they’ll also equate you with that compliment. And so, you’re sticking in their brain double because you’re giving somebody else a compliment and they’re equating you with that compliment. So, you’re creating win-win on both sides, which is one of the best things you can do in your career.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, I guess I’m surprised to learn that they’re equating me with that compliment. Is there some research behind this? Or what’s the story?

Karl Staib
Yeah. So, what happens in the brain is as that person hears that compliment, they’re hearing it from you. Now, it’s basically kind of the mirror neurons that are going on, right? Like, if we see somebody else behaving nicely, opening a door for somebody. We’ve all seen those commercials where you’re nice to somebody and then they pass it on, and they hold the door for somebody, and then somebody else picks up the tab at a Starbucks for the person behind them. It’s very similar to that. It’s seeing, like, you are being grateful for somebody else, and that person sees that, and says, “Wow, they must also live that way too, or be that way too.” And that’s why it works so well.

And it’s true though. Like, if you notice, and this is a positivity thing, but you wake up, you’re in a good mood, you just got a pep in your step, and you go through the day, and you’re just like, “Man, life is good.” You hit some traffic but it’s okay. You just got a good groove going on today versus the day where you got up on the wrong side of bed. You hit that same traffic and then you end up getting angry and mad and everything is wrong, and you go on to work, and everything just goes to hell. It’s the same traffic. Everything. But it’s your mindset going into it that was different.

And so, that’s why it’s so important to work on those things. And that’s what happens when you take that time to be grateful, you become more patient, you relax a little bit, you don’t try to force things as much because what ends up happening is you’re pausing to slow down the moment. If I have to think of something I’m grateful for, I can’t worry about anything else, I can’t do anything else, I can’t think another thought. Once a thought is in there, that’s that thought, right? There’s no double-thinking thoughts at the same time. You can’t think negative and positive.

And so what ends up happening is you are setting yourself up to create a more positive mindset and to be more resilient. And that’s the stuff when you get knocked down at work and somebody says something mean to you, or somebody talks behind your back, you can allow it to wreck your day or you can say, “You know what,” and I know, Pete, this is hard, but being grateful for that person. Being grateful for the opportunity to be just a little bit more empathetic towards that person.

I always give the traffic example because I struggle whenever I hit traffic, my blood boils but I’m working on not allowing it to do that to me. You’re in traffic. And you can choose, like, “Okay, I’m going to stay mad and I’m going to be pissed off, and I’m going to yell at everybody.” Or, I can say, “I’m grateful for this moment because I can look out my window and see the trees. I’m grateful for this moment because I can turn on my favorite song.” And that pause allows you then to stop and not be so reactionary.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. I dig that, that pause and the why piece because I kind of wanted to get some more details associated with if you identify, “Hey, I’m grateful for this,” you write it down. It seems like sometimes you really feel it, and sometimes you don’t. And Hal Elrod discussed this when we were chatting in our interview that sometimes the gratitude is just sort of an intellectual thing, “It is good that I am in a car and it has proper climate controls.” You know, like, “That is a fact,” as opposed to, “Wow, this is just so warm and cozy and perfect.” I don’t know.

You talked about the why and as opposed just the what. Do you have any other pro tips on how we can really get there so that we are feeling the gratitude as opposed to just simply identifying, “Yes, this is something worthy of gratitude”?

Karl Staib
Yeah, that’s a great point, right? Because if we force it, it doesn’t have the impact that it could, right? Like, we can’t force love. You can’t make yourself be happy. But it’s not about, in this case, being specifically happy about the traffic and that you can’t get to where you want to go. It’s about being grateful for what you can be grateful for.

So, what’s important is to put everything into perspective, right?

We have to look at things and we’ve got to say, “Okay, is this really that bad? Like, I’m stuck in traffic. Maybe I’m late getting home to my family.” But if you’re saying, “This is miserable. I’m never doing this again. I’m not going to do this driving anymore,” that’s not a bad thing. Anger is not bad. We should feel angry. We should feel all our feelings. And maybe that spurs us to make a change in our lives. Like, that’s something to be grateful for, and that’s kind of the point of this, is it’s not about being happy. It’s about working on your mindset because there’s always a way to find some small thing you’re grateful for.

You just got to slow down a little bit and allow yourself to focus on the super small things that you can control and you can enjoy, and that’s the stuff that’s going to really help you focus your mindset in the direction.

Pete Mockaitis
And you also have a term called way power. What is that and how do we use it?

Karl Staib
Okay. So, you’ve probably heard of the study where you go through the grocery store and you have to deal with picking out, “Which bread do I want? What type of strawberries do I want?” And the more you make these decisions the more your willpower depletes. When your willpower depletes, you go to the checkout lane, you see the Snickers, you pick up the Snickers because you’re exhausted, you’ve made all of these decisions throughout the day, and you put that Snickers down on the conveyor belt, and you walk out with your Snickers bar, and you start eating it even before you get into the car, right, because you’ve had enough. Your brain can’t take anymore decisions.

Now that is how a lot of us do any type of good habit-building. We say, “I’m going to work out today. This is the day that I’ll wake up early.” And then the alarm goes off, and you don’t wake up early, and you hit the snooze alarm, and then you push off working out to the next day. Now way power is really important because it’s the wind behind your sails. It’s not, “Oh, I’m doing this and I have to do this.” It’s, “I want to do this.” It’s the why behind it.

You have kids, you’ve got young kids, and your wife is waking up early, and I’m guessing she’s looking at this as an opportunity to bond with her kids. I don’t know your wife. I don’t know you when you wake up at 4:00 a.m. or whatever it is to feed the kids. But if you can say, “You know, I’m going to use this as an opportunity to bond with my kid.” That right there is setting yourself up to have a better experience than, “Argh, man, it’s 4:00 a.m. I’m too tired for this.”

Those thoughts are going to deplete you, and then you’re like, “No, I got to just get up and do it. Pete, get up. Do it.” But if you say, “Okay, what are my options? Stay here, let the baby cry, or stay here and let my wife do it? You know what, I’m going to take this as an opportunity to bond with my kid.” And that is way power. That’s you finding that small bit of appreciation, of gratitude towards doing that thing and allowing that to guide you versus you forcing yourself to do it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Well, Karl, tell me, anything else you want to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Karl Staib
I think it’s really important when people focus on working on their mindset, is to bring some awareness and watching those thoughts. And you don’t have to meditate. But the idea is you have to notice these things that are happening, right? If you’re stuck in traffic and you feel the anger coming on, you can ride that wave and just let it go, or you can pause and you can slow down and allow yourself to take a moment and relax and not let that anger overwhelm you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Now can you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Karl Staib
So, I’m a big fan of the show so I have two, “Gratitude is the healthiest of all human emotions. The more you express gratitude for what you have, the more likely you will have even more to express gratitude for.” And that’s Zig Ziglar. That’s a great quote.

Okay, number two. “My dad encouraged us to fail. Growing up he would ask us what we failed at this week. If we didn’t have something, he would be disappointed. It changed my mindset at an early age that failure is not the outcome. Failure is not trying. Don’t be afraid to fail.” And I think that’s so important. Failure is not who we are. It’s not defining us. What defines is what happens after.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite study?

Karl Staib
There’s a study where optimistic salespeople outsell their pessimistic counterparts by 56%. And this comes through their ability to bounce back. And so, that’s what I want people to try to practice.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Karl Staib
Can I give two?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure.

Karl Staib
Emotional Success by David DeSteno. There’s a ton of research in gratitude in there. And then Siddhartha by Herman Hess because he was very influential of me, really digging into my mindset.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Karl Staib
My gratitude journal, I keep it on my phone so I have it always on me. And it sounds silly but whenever I have a tough meeting or whatever, I just pull up my phone and I write one thing I’m grateful for, and it usually kind of shifts my focus. Man, it’s helped me so much.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Karl Staib
Walking. I love walking. It’s usually when I come up with a lot of my ideas. Helps me process. We are meant to move as a species, all animals are. And if we sit or lay down too long, our anxiety takes over. So, it helps me keep my anxiety at bay too.

Pete Mockaitis
Is there a key thing that you share that seems to connect with folks such that they quote it back to you?

Karl Staib
Hmm, yeah, the three levels of gratitude. A lot of people say, “Yeah, I know gratitude is important. I know I should be thinking about it more, being more appreciative of my life, but I never heard it in that way.”

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Karl Staib
Yeah, I challenge them to keep a gratitude journal for 30 days. I do gratitude challenges. It’s how most people have found me. November, January, March, May and September, September just wrapped up. November, the next one starts. And so, I suggest, if they want, they can go to BringGratitude.com/thanks, like thanks for listening, and they can get some freebies, the five tools to be 31% more productive, they get information on how to join the challenge.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Karl, thanks so much. I’m grateful for you and wish you all the best as you keep on going here.

Karl Staib
Thank you so much. This is great. And I love the questions and how you dug in and you really forced me to do deeper than I was anticipating in going.