KF #17. Financial Acumen Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Noor, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Dr. Noor Ali
Pete, thank you so much for having me. I’m a huge fan of the show, a huge fan of the Golden Nuggets, so this is a huge opportunity and privilege for me. Thanks.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. Well, I’m a huge fan of you and all the money you’ve saved me on health insurance premiums since we’ve discovered you about a year or two ago. So, why don’t we get oriented? So, you are Dr. Noor Ali, so you’re a doctor but you’re not practicing medicine, and instead you’re doing health insurance. What’s the story here?

Dr. Noor Ali
Correct. Correct. This gets a lot of people. I am. I’m a medical doctor, I trained in my home country in Bangladesh. My background is internal medicine and general surgery. And if you know anything about this tiny little country of Bangladesh, it’s very, very low resource. We’ve got a whole lot of people and not a whole lot of medical practitioners. So, I’m actually trained to treat any human from head to toe, so I can do anything from a C-section, to a delivery, to a general surgery case, to a heart attack, to a stroke.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, but you’re not doing that now.

Dr. Noor Ali
I’m not doing that now.

Pete Mockaitis
Maybe on an airplane if there’s an emergency, you’ll be the person.

Dr. Noor Ali
Right. I’ve been doing health insurance for about five years now, Pete. Now, the process for foreign physicians like myself, if you’re familiar, is we don’t have to go through medical school again when we come back to the States. We have to pass a series of licensing exams called the USMLE. Now, the first of those series of exams is, step one, the content is basic sciences. And at that point in my career, I was a superstar, rock star surgeon and there was a huge disconnect for me.

So, I studied for about two years and I missed it. I failed the test by one question which was three points at the time, and it really put a damper in my career. I went into this deep kind of depression, I lost all sense of professional identity, and I didn’t really know what to do with myself, and I just needed a win at that time.

So, on paper, I just looked like a high school graduate, Pete, because I never went to undergrad. I went straight to medical school, this accelerated medical program from high school, so I was struggling to find jobs. And the only opportunity I got was a sales role at this health insurance company and I just took it because I just needed a win in my life. So, that was the connection between going from a clinical career to insurance, but I’ve been doing it for five years, and I’ve really made a career for myself.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’ll tell you, it was my producers who found you originally because I was thinking, “I want to talk to an expert on health insurance, both for the show and for me. So, please find this person,” and you won. Like, you are a health insurance expert who is also a doctor. And it’s funny because those often don’t go together because I’ve had many conversations with doctors, “So, like, what’s the insurance going to do with this? Or how much is this going to cost?” Like, “Boy, I don’t know that. That’s a tricky one.”

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah, they don’t teach you that in medical school, right? They don’t teach you the insurance part.

Pete Mockaitis
So, you’ve got both, and so it’s funny. Health insurance is confusing even the doctors. And I remember, I even took a course in college, it was David Sinow, and it was called Personal Wealth Management and it was a very popular course. It’s about measuring your money for finance majors, like the personal side of things. And we talked a little bit about health insurance stuff, and it was a little tricky then.

But then, in practice, I remember I was in a nonprofit board meeting, and we were just taking the steps, like, “Okay, let’s really get health insurance locked in for the employees.” And so, someone did the research and we had these options. And it was so funny because, here we are these board members, who have some pretty cool accomplishments in the world of finance and leadership and running things, and all of us are just like, “Oh, boy, I don’t know. I don’t know,” and it was striking.

So, what’s going on here, Noor? Are we just dumb or what’s going on? Is it super complicated for everybody?

Dr. Noor Ali
It is. It is because there are so many players in this game, Pete. If we zoom out a little bit and if we think like, “Well, why is it so darn complicated? And how come other countries have it together and we don’t?” We’ve got a capitalist economy, we’ve got big players in insurance, we’ve got smaller groups, we’ve got employers, and then we’ve got private companies just kind of like making up their own rules in everything.

And then in 2008, we have an administration that says, “Well, let’s try to clean it all up. We’re going to do the Affordable Care Act, and we’re going to try to house everything under one federal platform,” but that still doesn’t eliminate the private sector and all of these key players. So, because there are so many people in this mix, it makes it really complicated because you don’t know where to start, and you don’t know where to go.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s great. It’s not just me and my fellow board members. It’s tricky for everyone, including doctors, and it is just because that’s the system that we have with all the different players. So, here we are, talking from a US context. Tell me, when it comes to US healthcare and health insurance, is there any country that’s awesome on every dimension?

I’ve heard that the US flourishes when if something really gnarly happens to you, we’ve got a whole lot of high-tech great stuff to give you a good outcome with that. So, in that dimension, the US is great on healthcare. But on many other dimensions, we’re not so great. How do we stack up and how do you think about that?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah, great question, and it always depends on who you’re asking and who you’re having the conversation with. I’ve lived and worked in Australia, I visited the UK, Canada, I have this recurring conversation, and people ask me all the time, “Well, what is it with the US versus other countries? And, exactly, how do we stack up?” And it’s always in any situation like this, especially when it comes to healthcare, there’s going to be two sides of the coin, and whoever you’re asking, their perspective is going to be different.

So, if we use the example of the Affordable Care Act, I’m going to refer back to this again because that’s what is popularly known. Well, that’s where you go to get your health insurance, HealthCare.gov. Well, it’s not designed for everyone. If you put the population of America on a graph and you divide it into four quadrants, the population that’s winning with the Affordable Care Act is the lower income and chronically ill. If you’re higher income or generally healthy, you’re not getting a good deal here.

So, similarly in other countries, whatever system that they have or they implement, it’s going to be great for one population and it’s going to alienate another. So, the short answer, Pete, is there’s no magical solution, there’s no one country where 100% of the population is happy, and I don’t think that’s ever going to happen.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that was my next question, and you answered that lovely. I’ve heard some people say, “Oh, my gosh, Obamacare,” the name also used for the Affordable Care Act, ACA, they say, “Oh, my gosh, this is awesome. I’m saving so much.” And then other people say, “This is terrible. My last plan did so much more and I paid less.”

And so, there are some strong feelings on both ways, but I think you summarized it rather well. It’s like if you’re lower income and/or chronically ill, you’re better off now that the Affordable Care Act exists. And if you’re on the other side of that coin, you are personally worse off but maybe you feel good about how you’re contributing to the health of others, or maybe you don’t.

Dr. Noor Ali
That’s exactly right, Pete. Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, thank you, that’s that story. Now, I want to get into one of the main reasons I wanted to have this conversation because this topic is different than a lot of our other episodes. I’ve heard people say, many times, “Oh, boy, I’d love to start my own business or do my own thing, go out on my own, but, oh, I’m with this company and they’ve got great health insurance. I really need the health insurance. I’ve got a family of four,” or maybe even someone with a chronic condition within that.

“And so, I guess I gotta stay put.” To what extent is that assertion accurate versus poppycock versus something in the middle?

Dr. Noor Ali
I’m going to lean more towards the poppycock for that situation because that’s absolutely not true. Now, historically, traditionally, employers were the best source to get health insurance because the larger your corporation is, the risk can be diluted more, the actuarial risk can be taken down, and the company can offer greater benefits to their employees. In addition, if the corporation is doing well, they can sponsor more towards your premium.

So, your out of pocket, what is coming out of your paycheck looks less and less. So, I am not at all denying that you can get excellent healthcare from your employer in a large corporation. However, that is not the only place to get health insurance. There is an entire whole other world out there, outside of your employer, where you can purchase your own health insurance. And in this specific situation that you stated, Pete. I want to pick that apart a little bit.

You mentioned a family of four where one person has different needs than the other, and that’s something that I want to hone in on, it’s something that I do for some of my services is to really analyze that. What is the risk and the needs for each of the person in their family if only one person out of a family of four has a greater need? The entire family does not need to be on a policy.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, actually, Noor, that was the huge insight that you gave me that’s resulted in my own personal savings. Thank you again for that. Because you said, “Oh, okay, so you think your wife might get pregnant again. Okay, well, then some plans are really great for that but they’re expensive all the time versus you and the other kids could be on this less expensive plan, and then she’d be on a separate.” I was like, “Oh, wow, wait a minute. One family, two different plans.”

Dr. Noor Ali
“What?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it was funny. My brain was like, “Wait. We’re still a family, right?”

Dr. Noor Ali
Right, “I don’t have to divorce my wife for this, do I?”

Pete Mockaitis
“We could still file our taxes jointly, right?” I was like, “Oh, of course. Of course.” I just never thought of it that way. And so, you opened my eyes and some savings, so we’ll talk about that. That’s cool. So, then maybe I know there are so many different kinds of plans, and things change. And this may be out of date a few months, but just for a snapshot.

Okay, here we are, December 2023, let’s say we don’t even know the value our employers are giving us or what we’d have to really shoulder if we went out on our own. Can you give us a taste for what does it cost, say, an individual who’s fairly healthy, let’s say 40 years old, versus an individual who’s not so healthy, 40 years old? We’ll do two-by-two. An individual, a family of four, healthy, unhealthy, very roughly speaking, what might we expect in the range of monthly premiums if we’re shouldering it all on our own for pretty good health insurance?

Dr. Noor Ali
Okay. Well, considering that there’s no subsidy here, so no ACA government plan subsidy, a full premium price plan for a healthy 40-year-old man can range anywhere from 350 to 450 a month. We should land somewhere right in the middle, and say roughly $400 a month.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, that sounds low. Are these ACA, Affordable Care Act plans, HealthCare.gov?

Dr. Noor Ali
It could be. So, it depends on what market we’re shopping. So, if we zoom out a little bit and back up the starting point when researching a plan for yourself is, “What market do I shop in? The public healthcare marketplace, which is the ACA Obamacare, or the private healthcare marketplace?” So, the public healthcare marketplace is entirely income-dependent.

So, that same healthy 40-year-old man, if he makes anywhere between $20,000 to $55,000 a year, he can qualify for a sliding scale subsidy from the government where they’ll pay a portion of his premiums. If he does not qualify for that subsidy and exceeds that subsidy-qualifying threshold, then his premiums can look anywhere from 350 plus.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. Now, let’s get a taste for an unhealthy person, if someone says, “Hey, I’ve got some stuff that I’ve got to deal with ongoing medications, condition.”

Dr. Noor Ali
So, the sad news is no insurance company wants to take on this unhealthy person with all of this stuff because insurance, even though they’re dealing in the business of risk, they don’t want to take on that risk. They just want to take your monthly premiums and want you to never use your insurance again. So, the best market to shop for someone who has major preexisting conditions is going to be Obamacare, ACA, public healthcare marketplace because this is a guaranteed issue platform. They’re not going to ask you about those preexisting conditions.

However, I should note that there are degrees of risks and preexisting conditions. The example that I like to use is an asthmatic. If you’ve got asthma and you’ve got a little inhaler that you have to use here and there, maybe an Albuterol once a day, versus that same 40-year-old man with asthma who is a smoker, overweight, has to go to the emergency room to get nebulized every time he has an asthma attack are two completely different risk profiles. So, it’s worth assessing that risk profile to see, “Hey, is my preexisting condition really as bad as I think it is? Can I still get a plan that’s less and shop for an insurance company that’ll take me, insuring me for less?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, in that very unhealthy situation, if they are going on HealthCare.gov, are they still in that 350 to 450 range because…”Hey…”?

Dr. Noor Ali
It depends on the income. It depends on the income. So, if the income is 20,000 or less, you can qualify for Medicaid, which is free healthcare in your state. Anything between 20,000 to 55,000 roughly, you can get a sliding scale subsidy, and your plan can be anywhere from zero dollars up to 350 plus, depending on that subsidy in tax credit.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And women, do they pay more because of pregnancy and these sorts of issues?

Dr. Noor Ali
Women pay more just because they’re a higher-cost to insure. They have a whole set of organs that cost a lot to maintain. So, in general, a 40-year-old woman is going to cost more to insure than a 40-year-old man.

Pete Mockaitis
And we were saying 350 to 450. What is it for a woman?

Dr. Noor Ali
Similar range but maybe a little higher, depending on the deductibles and max out of pockets could be higher. So, I would still say maybe these plans for a woman would be starting in the high 300s or 400s.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, if we have a family of four, would I just multiply that number by about four?

Dr. Noor Ali
Ish. So, children cost less and there are so many factors here. I hate that I’m even giving numbers because if someone hears this and they find there are some inconsistencies, I don’t want to be attacked here because children are going to cost less to insure but there are so many variables that go into finding this, calculating this monthly premium – zip code, age, risk factors, where you live, the cost of living there, the medications that you take, if we’re calculating monthly premiums. But children usually cost anywhere from $75 to $200 monthly premium, depending on age and where they live.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so this is informative. So, just to make things simple, I‘m just going to say 500 times three-ish, so you might call $1500-ish of premium per month times 12 months, we might be talking about $18,000-ish of a family’s budget, which is potentially more than the rent and/or the groceries for people if they’re on their own.

So, I think, to the extent of, if that statement, “I can’t leave my job. I’ve got to have the health insurance,” real versus poppycock, I think the answer is, well, it may very well be $20,000-ish a year of an issue if the employer is paying it all versus not. So, that’s how I spin my perspective, it’s like, “Well, hey, if you can clear $20,000 extra doing your own thing, then you might be fine. You just got to take that factor into account is that health insurance provided by an employer is a real benefit of substantial economic value but it need not handcuff us.”

Dr. Noor Ali
Right. Correct, Pete. And you mentioned that the employer is paying all of it. There’s hardly ever a situation where the employer pays all of it. They’re paying 50-70% of it perhaps, but the rest is coming out of your paycheck so often people don’t pay attention to it. You are paying for it. You just don’t notice it as much.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Okay. So, now what’s open enrollment? We hear a lot about it around this time of year. And what’s the deal?

Dr. Noor Ali
Open enrollment is the time of the year where insurance companies open up their arms and say, “Come sign up, enroll into our plans for the next year, you can get health insurance now.” It’s significant because it’s a sensitive window. You can only sign up for health insurance on the public healthcare marketplace typically November and December of every year for coverage for the following plan year.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, what’s that about, Noor? Why can’t we just buy something whenever we want to buy them?

Dr. Noor Ali
Because, we’re going to go back to the concept of risk, insurance needs to calculate how much risk they’re taking on for 2024, do that actuarial analyses, and run their numbers and reporting. So, people are signing up all year long, and they’re not doing any type of preexisting clause. They’re taking on random levels of risks at random levels of the year, and an insurance company cannot run its business taking on that risk.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Duly noted. So, then, if, let’s say if we got fired, or we left our job in the middle of the year, are we just out of luck, we’re just going to go uninsured until November-December?

Dr. Noor Ali
No, that would be a special qualifying life event. So, there are a series of circumstances, we’re in the middle of the year, if you just decide to move, you get married, or you just lose your job, or get terminated and have no longer have access to benefits, those would qualify you to be able to sign up for a plan on the public healthcare marketplace using the special enrollment period. I do have to point out though, on the private side, there are no special enrollment periods. You can sign up all year round.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, I’m also curious to the notion of public versus private, and employer-sponsored versus individual. I’ve had the experience, I remember in Chicago, when we made the shift from my wife’s health insurance to, “Okay, I’m getting all the health insurance,” there were some plans that I just could not access if I was not associated with an employer, which I thought was wild, it’s like, “I am willing and ready to pay outrageous amounts for my health insurance premiums. I’ve already steeled myself for that reality.”

And then it’s just like, “Oh, no, you just can’t have that plan. That has all the really cool doctors, or whatever.” And I thought that was so weird. What’s the deal with that?

Dr. Noor Ali
Can you tell me a little bit more about that though before I answer?

Pete Mockaitis
I think it was something like a Blue Cross Blue Shield, Gold or Platinum Choice, Select. I don’t know.

Dr. Noor Ali
Who said you couldn’t have it though? Was it an employer, a group, or what?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, there was one plan that my wife had, and it was pretty sweet in terms of it had vast numbers of physicians and network and all that. And then, as I looked at HealthCare.gov, it was just like, “No, that’s not on the menu.”

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah, so that’s going to be public versus private markets. So, the public healthcare marketplace, Obamacare, typically doesn’t have PPO networks, which is going to be those higher-quality plans that you’re talking about. You can only get those when you are part of a big employer, a group plan, or you go on the individual market and you basically get a private insurance plan. So, that’s one of the biggest detriments of plans on the public healthcare marketplace, is they don’t have PPO options in most states.

Pete Mockaitis
Not one, not a PPO to be had in most states on HealthCare.gov?

Dr. Noor Ali
Correct.

Pete Mockaitis
And for those who are not familiar, what do these letters PPO mean?

Dr. Noor Ali
PPO stands for Preferred Provider Organization. It’s pretty much like it sounds. It’s a higher-quality access for the benefits that you have. So, Pete, you can have the most awesome health insurance plan in the world, cost zero dollars, free, co-pays, all that stuff, covers you head to toe, but if you can only see the doctor that’s 30 miles away and has availability six months later, what good use is that plan?

So, the network of access to providers, that’s what the letters PPO, HMO, EPO stands for, is where and how you can use your benefits of your health insurance policy. And you always want to choose a PPO because that’s a higher quality.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, PPO is the best. Is HMO the worst?

Dr. Noor Ali
You could say that.

Pete Mockaitis
And what does EPO stand for? What’s that do?

Dr. Noor Ali
Something just in the middle, Exclusive Provider Organization. It’s a mix of HMO and PPO where you can see the doctors you like to, but again it’s a much limited and smaller network.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And how can I know the network I can access in advance of getting a plan?

Dr. Noor Ali
Well, when you look at the plan, you’ll know what network it’s on, but I think that one of the advices that I like to give that’s relevant in the situation is it’s always better to stay in network with the plan instead of finding a plan around the doctor that you love. Does that make sense? Because just to fit a plan around a provider, you might get really screwed in every other benefit, but if you have a plan that works in terms of benefits for you, then going along with the network and benefits of that plan is going to be more beneficial.

But when you’re exploring and researching plans, you’re always going to know what network that is, whether that’s HMO, EPO, or PPO.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think that’s sort of the tough pill that I guess we just have to swallow, is that if you’re fond of three distinct doctors in different specialties for…it’s like, “Oh, I want to get a plan that covers all of those.” Well, the odds are not in your favor, unfortunately, to pull that off. Although, in the case of some private plans for either individuals or corporations, you might have better luck there in terms of, “This is a premium offer that happens to include your three favorite specialists in different domains.”

Dr. Noor Ali
Precisely.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that’s good to know. So, Noor, if we’re young and healthy, do we still need health insurance or is that a waste of money?

Dr. Noor Ali
Am I allowed to laugh and scoff in response to that?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Dr. Noor Ali
Okay, I’m laughing and I’m scoffing but I’m trying to keep it together. Yes. Yes, Pete, you absolutely do need health insurance, and the best time to get it is when you are young and healthy because that’s when you are the lowest risk, the most desirable to health insurance companies, and they’re willing to insure you for a lot less cost, and willing to give you a lot more benefits. So, that is the best time to get yourself some good insurance.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, and I know someone who is young and healthy, and then she got cancer, and it was so sad and startling and unexpected, and so then she had a heap of medical bills. And so then, they were doing some benefits and some fundraisers and some donations. And someone who was curious and courageous enough to pose the question, “So, did she not have health insurance? Or how do these bills kind of end up mounting so high?”

And then the person said in reply, “Of course, she didn’t have health insurance. She’s young and healthy. Why would she spend money on health insurance?” And so, I like that you’re presenting this, the opposite point of view strongly because that’s how I think about health insurance. It’s like, “Would you like to not go bankrupt if something terrible happens to your health? If the answer is yes, and you live in the United States, having health insurance is, unfortunately, a necessary thing that you need to enjoy that privilege.” That’s where we are.

Dr. Noor Ali
Exactly. Yup, that’s exactly it. You’re right.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, if we should all have it, tell us what are some of the clever ways we might go about saving on health insurance?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yes, great question. I want to offer a little bit of insight on the young and healthy thing because this is a fallacy that I see a lot in the young and healthy population is, first of all, they think they don’t need health insurance. So, that’s mistake number one. You absolutely do. But the second thing that I notice is they go for the plan with the lowest premium and the highest deductible because that just makes sense in their head, it’s like, “Well, I hardly ever use it to go to the doctor and use it, why would I pay more in premiums?” whatever.

So, in that situation, what’s happening is, let’s say you have health insurance for two years, and, finally, something happens and you need to use your health insurance plan. You have a $200-a-month premium and you have a $10,000 deductible. That’s a typical low-premium, high-deductible plan ratio. So, for two years, you paid your insurance company $200 a month, and when you finally need health insurance because you got into a car accident or got diagnosed with cancer, you are going to have to pay the first $10,000 of bills before your insurance company is going to step in and pay anything.

So, you just ensured in that situation that you are paying, not your insurance company. So, that’s completely like the opposite psychology that you should be using as a young, healthy, low-risk person when selecting your health insurance plan. The better strategy, in my opinion, is, “What is the lowest deductible that I can afford with a comfortable premium?” And that may be 250-300, just a little bit more per month but if and when you need to use your health insurance benefits, you want to make sure that you are spending less out of pocket and your insurance is stepping in with those bigger bills.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, let’s talk about some of these words. This is like everything you want to know about health insurance but were afraid to ask. Premium, deductible, co-insurance, what do these words mean?

Dr. Noor Ali
Premium is the amount of money that you have to pay per month just for having your policy. Whether you use it, you never use it, you have to pay the premium. If you work for a big corporation, that’s typically divided up into your bi-weekly paychecks, comes out of the paycheck, but it’s traditionally calculated as a monthly premium.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And then what is a deductible?

Dr. Noor Ali
A deductible is the amount of money that you have to pay in addition to the premium before the insurance will start paying out on your benefits. Now, typically, most insurance plans only offer preventive care before the deductible. Most insurance out plans don’t offer a whole lot.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then what is a co-insurance percentage?

Dr. Noor Ali
Co-insurance is, after you meet that deductible, is the percentage of bills, medical expenses your insurance company will pay.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, if it’s an 80%, then I’ll pay through my deductible, and then I will still be on the hook for 20% of what happens above and beyond that.

Dr. Noor Ali
Correct, until you reach your max out of pocket.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, max out of pocket, is that just what it sounds like, it’s like, “I will not part with any more money than this in a year?”

Dr. Noor Ali
Yes, it’s a value that states that once you pay your insurance company this amount, they’re obligated to cover the rest of the bills.

Pete Mockaitis
And is that in addition to on top of the premiums?

Dr. Noor Ali
It’s always on top of the premiums, yes.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Very cool. What is a co-pay?

Dr. Noor Ali
A co-pay is very similar to the co-insurance. It’s either/or. Your plan can either have a co-pay or a co-insurance. And a co-pay is a fixed dollar amount that you pay for medical services before the service. So, that can be a $20 co-pay to see a doctor or specialist that you would pay that before you even see the doctor.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And what’s funny is I’ve learned from experience that co-pays are actually good. Like, I want to have $50 co-pay to see a specialist as opposed to not having one because then the neurologist might be like, “Yo, that’s actually $450 to talk with me for half an hour.” It’s like, “Oh, oops, I’d rather have a $50 co-pay.” So, co-pays are a good thing that we want to see across a broad array of services. Is that accurate?

Dr. Noor Ali
I would say, in this economy, having a fixed co-pay is going to be much better than a co-insurance percentage because of the example that you just stated. You want a fixed dollar amount rather than a percentage of a big bill.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. There you go. And then the network tells me who they are willing to give money to. And so, if I go out of network then the plan might specify, “Well, hey, you have no benefits or fewer benefits.” Is that accurate?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yes, less benefits.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we want in-network for good savings, and so we should research in advance who is in the network. And sometimes that’s harder than you think to determine because it’s like, “Oh, yeah, we take UnitedHealthcare.” But UnitedHealthcare has many, many plans underneath this brand name, this company. So, how do you recommend we do great research on getting clear answers on, “No, for real, who’s in the network, who’s not in the network?”

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah. Well, every insurance plan will have their network directory, but, honestly, those are updated every 30 days. Sometimes they’re not accurately updated. So, the best and fastest way is to call up your doctor that you like, your provider, your hospital, your urgent care, and say, “Hey, do you guys take this plan? Are you in network?” Just ask the question.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. And you, that’s one of the services you and your team provide. You do a little bit of the groundwork, a little bit of the hustle, on behalf of your clients, right?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yes. Yes, I do. So, if you are a client of mine, and you just want to know, “Hey, where can I go?” I’ll happily do that for you.

Pete Mockaitis
And, honestly, that is just so huge, thank you, because this stuff is so complicated it makes me groan. So, this is part of why it took so long for us to get onto a microphone together is that you do some of that work, and that is awesome, and at no cost. And I’m trying not to be too much of an advertisement for you, but I can’t resist. I think you’re awesome. So, I don’t have to pay you any extra for that. How on earth is this financially workable for you, to do all this legwork, and be paid nothing to do it, to have it done?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah, that’s a great question. Well, Pete, to be honest, I did raise my price just a little bit since we worked together. Not a whole lot, but, yeah, it’s one of the concierge services that I provide. So, for all of my clients, things like claims, customer service, I’m happy to do that for the life of the policy just because I know how onerous it can be for you, and how easy and convenient it is for me. It’s not a big deal to me at all. The way I get compensated is through the insurance company that I end up connecting you with. They pay me a portion of your premiums for my commission. So, don’t worry, I’m taken care of.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right, yes. And so, in a way, it’s interesting. You’ll pay the same amount, whether we go to HealthCare.gov or you, right?

Dr. Noor Ali
Correct.

Pete Mockaitis
And yet, when we go through you, we get these extra benefits and services.

Dr. Noor Ali
Correct, yup.

Pete Mockaitis
And it’s just the healthcare provider, or the health insurance provider, who has a slightly shrunk profit margin, and I don’t mind.

Dr. Noor Ali
Me neither.

Pete Mockaitis
Sorry, health insurers. I think they’re doing okay and then giving a little slice to you, so that’s win-win-win. Okay. So, then tell us what are some of your favorite tips for saving on health insurance or healthcare expenditure overall?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah. Well, when it comes to finding and researching your plan, I think doing a needs assessment and risk evaluation is huge. That’s really where I start the journey whenever I speak to someone and they come to, asking, “Where do I even start?” So, some of the things that I’m going to be looking at is, “Where do you live? How much money are you expecting to make? And what is your medical or health risk profile?” And because of my strong medical background, it’s very easy for me to do that assessment quickly.

So, once I kind of profile your risk, then we decided, “Okay, public market, private market,” and there’s a type of a plan that I specialize in and I advocate for, and it works really beautifully for people in the healthier and wealthier bracket and on the private side, and it’s called a medically underwritten health insurance policy.

And this model is a pre-2008 or pre-Obamacare era where if you’re generally healthy and you’re earning too much to qualify for any government subsidies, we can underwrite you medically into a high-quality PPO health insurance plan that’s going to last you a lot longer and mirror the quality of a corporate package, or a major medical plan, at a fraction of the cost.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Okay. So, then we’ve got a great plan. Well, now tell us, how do we work it so that we don’t have unfortunate unexpected medical expenses along the way of living and using that plan?

Dr. Noor Ali
I love it. I love it. This is one of my favorite questions to answer because working your insurance plan, or milking it, is exactly what you should be doing. So, the first things to note is make sure you take advantage of all of the preventive care. Insurance companies don’t want to spend money. It’s more beneficial to them to keep you healthy. And how do we keep you healthy? Go to the doctor at least once a year, get your preventive, your annual wellness checkup so you’re not surprised with cancer because that’s what’s going to cost them and that’s all they care about.

So, take advantage of all the wellness and preventive benefits that your plan has at the very least. Then if you need to use your plan for services, start at the lowest tier, which is going to be virtual therapy and care. That is very accessible to you. You could do it from home. Now, they have trained physicians that they’re designed to send prescriptions to your nearest pharmacy without you leaving or doing anything, and they’re billing at a lot lower rates.

So, don’t go running to the emergency room for a cough and cold, stomach ache, or UTI, or yeast infection for women. Start with a virtual visit. That’s going to save you tons of money, it’s very convenient, and it’s going to help on the insurance backend.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And one of the other cool benefits of insurance—I can’t believe I said that sentence, cool benefit, okay, but I believe it—is that when you get medical bills, the explanation of benefit statements, it’ll show you, “Okay, hey, normally, we charge this much money for the services, but because you have this insurance, we’ve pre-negotiated a rate between them. And so, now it’s discounted and then your benefits cover this amount.”

So, it’s sort of like, “We knocked it down from, I don’t know, 500 bucks if you have nothing, to 320 because we pre-negotiated,” to, “Oh, hey, you have some insurance benefits,” so then you might be left with, like, 80 or something at the end. So, that’s kind of cool. But what can be tricky is, do they call it balance billing, is, like, “Oh, yeah, I am on the hook for a little bit after everything, and, oops, it’s more than I thought it would be.” How do I prevent that from happening?

Dr. Noor Ali
What I know about balance billing is that it’s difficult to predict unless you request estimates, or, “Hey, tell me exactly what you’re going to bill to insurance,” and that involves communications with the billing department before you seek services, which can be challenging in emergency situations, so I don’t have an actual answer on what to do after the fact.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. So, after the fact, good luck, but what you can do to prevent that is, ideally, you talk to them, you get the estimate. And I’ve heard that, even if you do get that surprise, you can ask and say, “Hey, I was really surprised to see this given that you’re in network, and I see the insurance paid this. So, what can you do for me?” And sometimes, they’ll just, “Oh, yeah, cut in half,” just like that. This happens.

Dr. Noor Ali
That’s a great strategy, actually, and negotiation is something that should never be left off of the table. Now, typically, negotiation is a strategy that’s used for cash-pay patients, people who don’t have insurance, they say, “Hey, I wasn’t expecting this much. What can you do?” And you always want to offer cash because facilities would always rather be paid upfront immediately than wait 30 to 90 days for a claim to process and for insurance to pay them. But now, we’ve seen it working also with insurance. If you can combine having insurance and still negotiating and re-pricing down your patient responsibility, you can do better than that. That’s amazing.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And that also having an estimate in advance is huge for your negotiation, it’s like, “Hey, wait a minute. You said it was going to be this.” Like, “Oh, yeah, but we also had to do an ultrasound.” It’s like, “Well, why wasn’t that in the original estimate?” It’s like, “Well, you didn’t click the CPT code for an ultrasound estimate.” It’s like, “I didn’t know I was supposed to do that.” “Okay, fair enough. Just knock off 300 bucks.” Okay, just like that.

And when it comes to pricing, the way I think about options, or how do you think about it? When I’ve narrowed down to a few options or plans, I kind of like to play with the numbers, and say, “Okay, if I use no health insurance, how much cash should I be out over the course of a year? If I had a horrific accident, shattering dozens of bones, multiple surgeries, how much would I be out the year, so like the out of pocket plus the premiums and all that?”

And then what do I really expect to happen, like, “Okay, I’m going to go to the doctor a couple times and then maybe check in with this or that”? And then I look at those three total out-of-my-pocket cash amounts across the scenarios, and across the options, so it takes a while to make a call, “Okay, which plan is really my best option? Oh, that plan doesn’t exist next year, oops. Do it again.” Is this a good way to go? Or what’s a faster, easier, smarter way to assess the different plans and which one is optimal for me?

Dr. Noor Ali
That’s a fantastic exercise, Pete, and I wish that more people were more savvy like you to do that determination. The quicker faster dirtier way would just be to call me and I do that for you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, thank you.

Dr. Noor Ali
But, yeah, if you’ve got the skills, go the Pete-route, but if you don’t and you’re below average, then you can give me a call.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I would say, for all my savvy, I’ve still made mistakes and had unexpected medical expenses. Oops. So, learn in those lessons. Well, tell us, any other tips, tricks, things to do or not do when we’re buying or using our health insurance?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah, really just take some time to get to know your policy. Some really high-level things you got to know about your health insurance is the monthly premium, how much are you paying just to have your plan, your deductible, your max out of pocket, and really cool special little things. That’s a very personal thing to find out. Like, if you love going to the chiropractor, really know your chiropractor benefits.

If you’ve got a kid who’s active in sports, what is your accidental policy like? How much is it going to cost if your kid is going to break a leg? So, know those common situations and scenarios that’s important to you. Understand what that out-of-pocket liability is going to be. And if you don’t know those answers, reach out to the person that helped you get your plan. They’ll have those answers. And just have a mental note on that.

I’d also say to do pretty frequent assessments and evaluations even if it’s not every year. If you have a major life change, that’s a good time to evaluate your health insurance policy, “Is it still working for me?” If you’re having a baby, that’s an important time. If you have a move or a life change, that’s an important time. But, also, if new products come out on the market pretty often, so understanding, “Am I paying the lowest that I could pay? Are there any new products out there that’s going to be a better fit for my needs?”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great. And, tell us, what about these so-called health-share programs, like Liberty HealthShare, Samaritan Ministries? How should I think about those?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah, that’s going to depend on a lot of things. So, I’ll tell you my opinion on health-sharing plans. So, the first thing to understand is they’re not true insurance products, so it’s not insurance at all. And the value of insurance is going to be that max out of pocket, that clearly defined number that says, “Hey, I gave you my insurance card.” There’s worst-case scenario, cancer, all bones shattered, “This is the most I’m going to pay. Don’t ask me any more questions. That’s a contract between you and your insurance company.”

So, that’s one thing that I find to be lacking in most health-sharing plans. And the second factor that impacts a lot of people is many health-sharing plans are based on faith which require some lifestyle commitments that not everybody is prepared to commit to. So, if it aligns with your lifestyle, and you’re okay with that model, that’s fine.

The third thing I’ll say about health-sharing plans is it’s very non-traditional, it’s a healthcare alternative, it’s certainly trending, but if you come from a corporate background where you’re used to a traditional healthcare model with fixed co-pays, where you don’t have to negotiate or do any type of self-advocacy or patient advocacy, you might not like that model because there’s a lot of standing up for yourself, paying first, and then negotiating and re-pricing down, and then hoping that your health-sharing plan kind of kicks in with the rest of the bills.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s what I’ve heard. I guess my personal take is I know friends who’ve had great experiences. Like, some, I think it was a premature child, and that’s a nightmare, and them saying, “Well, hey, we’re here for you in your time of need, sir. And this is your time of need,” and he just starts crying, like, feeling super supported by them, it’s like, “Wow, great. That’s really cool.”

And there are others who say, “I don’t know if I trust that they’re really going to have my back when it’s there.” And, yes, there could be some faith things that may or may not jive with your values, beliefs, wisdom, tradition, lifestyle stuff. So, there’s that.

What do we think about vision, dental, these kinds of health insurance matters?

Dr. Noor Ali
This depends on your level of usage. If you don’t go get your eyes checked once a year, or you don’t wear glasses or contacts, do you really need vision insurance? No, probably not. If you are using eye care, and you actually buy glasses and materials, I think there’s value in vision insurance. Similarly, for dental, if you’re just going in for cleanings twice a year, you could probably be better off paying for that out of pocket at your local dentist.

One strategy I can advise is, if you’re open to a dentist, any time a new dentist office pops up, they offer an introductory rate for cleanings and preventive care. Do a cash pay. Take advantage of that. Where dental insurance really has value is if you have horrible teeth that require continuous work, like root canals, bridges, fillings over and over again, those services are billed at much higher rates, and it’s valuable to have an insurance plan to take care of most of the bill versus you doing cash pay.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good to know. So, the negotiated rates between dental insurers and dentists are much better than the cash rates. Although, a lot of dental plans I’ve seen, it seems like their maximum coverage is a little skimpy, it’s like, “Man, if things really hit the fan with my teeth, for tens of thousands of dollars, you wouldn’t really have my back to that level.” Unlike, out of pocket maximum health insurance, it’s like shatter 20 bones, “Okay, they’ve got a hefty bill and I don’t so much.”

And with the vision, I’ve learned that some of those vision insurance, you think, “Oh, I get a free pair of glasses,” whatever, but then if you buy glasses from an optometrist office, somehow all the lenses and all, sometimes somehow, even with the insurance benefits, it ends up being way more than buying them on, like, Zenni Optical, or Warby Paker, or some of these other places. So, you may be better off cash-paying for your eye exam, getting a valid prescription, and then just going to buy your glasses online, and forgetting a vision insurance benefit.

Dr. Noor Ali
Right.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, that’s just my own experience. Is that something you’ve observed within your clientele as well?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yes, and it depends on, again, the billing practices, where you live, how much they’re charging for those frames, all of those factors go into it. But I would say, if you are looking to stretch your benefits more, that strategy that you said is pretty great. Go get your eyes checked and get a prescription, and then shop around on an online provider to get it for less.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I read a juicy story about a health insurance provider using AI to deny a bunch of claims and end up getting into some trouble. And some lawyers mentioned a factoid, which I thought was intriguing, which said that, “Only 0.2% of people appeal a health insurance denial.” Is that accurate? Or, do you know? And/or what are odds of success if your health insurer says, “No,” and we say, “No, really, yes”?

Dr. Noor Ali
This is really interesting. I don’t have data to back up what I’m going to say but I’ll share my personal experience. I would say that factoid sounds right because, yeah, I would say that people don’t appeal it. However, my clients, I am absolutely tenacious when it comes to things like that. If an insurance company is denying a claim, I am so fast to appeal that claim before the denial letter even comes through. And that’s also a service that I provide and I like to do.

And, in my experience, what has happened that in that claims, denial, and appeal process, the bill from the hospital, or the emergency room, or whatever, somehow disappears because nobody wants to deal with that process. The insurance company doesn’t want to reopen the case and reassess, and the facility or the hospital writes that off as a lost expense because they say, “Okay. Well, we’re never going to get paid for this because our patient is not paying us, and the insurance hasn’t paid us, so we’re just going to file this away as an expense.” So, it actually works out if you actually appeal.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And you’ll do it for us, so that’s easy.

Dr. Noor Ali
Yes, exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. All right. Noor, wow, what a whirlwind. Any final thoughts before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Dr. Noor Ali
No, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you for your questions today, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yes, a favorite quote, I use this across every aspect of my life is by one of my favorite authors, Haruki Murakami, and he says, “If you read what everyone else is reading, you’ll think what everyone else is thinking.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. Well, speaking of what everyone is reading, what’s a favorite book of yours?

Dr. Noor Ali
Good one. Okay. The Midnight Library.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Dr. Noor Ali
Gratitude. With every step, with every breath, active, intentional gratitude.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key thing that you share with clients that they repeat frequently, they quote Dr. Noor often on?

Dr. Noor Ali
I’m going to pull something from my desk that’s for another business that I have for my company, Think Like a Woman, and I have my quote here. And my quote is, “There’s nothing more powerful than an ambitious woman aligned with her aspirations.” It’s from one of my quotes.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dr. Noor Ali
My website, DrNoorHealth.com. What’s more entertaining is following me on Instagram because you can see my entire life unfold in stories. It’s quite entertaining.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dr. Noor Ali
If you want to be awesome at your job, take a look at your health insurance benefits. Pay attention to what is coming out of your paycheck. If you are curious if you can do better, give me a call. Talk to me and let’s see what we can do for you.

Pete Mockaitis
Sure thing. Dr. Noor, this has been a treat. I wish you much luck and success in all your adventures.

Dr. Noor Ali
Thank you. Thank you so much, Pete. Thank you for the opportunity. I love this conversation.

Pete Mockaitis
Mindy, thanks so much for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Mindy Jensen
Pete, thank you for asking me to be on How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast. I’m super excited.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, well me too. It was so fun to meet you at Podcast Movement. I’ve been a Bigger Pockets fan for a while. It was a bit of a celebrity sighting, like, “ooh!”

Mindy Jensen
Well, I am glad we could get together.

Pete Mockaitis
Me too, me too. I have huge thanks and appreciation for what you’ve done in my world of accumulating money and wealth in terms of did my first house hack, is a term I learned from you guys, which refers to buying a multi-unit property and renting out some units and living in one of them. It’s awesome to have tenants pay your mortgage for you. It’s a treat.

Mindy Jensen
You know what, who wants to pay their own mortgage when somebody else can pay it for you? If anybody wants to pay my mortgage, feel free.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s an open invitation. Well, I want to go back into time a little bit and hear a fun story about you took a distance bike ride from Seattle to DC. What’s the story here?

Mindy Jensen
I used to work at a gym and I was flipping through some magazine and on the back cover was this advertisement that had a picture of the United States and it had a drawing from Seattle to DC. It said some people would do this on an airplane. Then I started reading and I’m like, “Well, yeah, how else would you get from Seattle to DC?” I’m looking and I’m like “This is a bike ride? That sounds awesome.”

I did a little more research. It was a fundraiser for the American Lung Association. And I just thought, “I’m young, I’m not married, I don’t have any kids. This would be a super fun thing for me to do.” I called them up and they said, “Oh, that ride started yesterday, but we have another one next year.” I’m like, “Okay, good because I’m not in any sort of shape to actually be doing a cross country bike ride.”

I mean I didn’t spend a lot of time getting in shape before the next year. I just hopped on my bike and did it. Not the recommended route. But it was an amazing experience to be – I didn’t really have anything to do all day long except get to the next camp. I met a ton of really great people. I raised a lot of money for the American Lung Association. It was a really great experience. I’m super glad I did it.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. That’s great. Was there a big old group of you all? How many were making the trek?

Mindy Jensen
I think there were 140 of us that year.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s awesome. So there was like support vans and camping and that?

Mindy Jensen
Yes. There were support vans. There was breakfast provided and dinner provided. Then everything else was – like, souvenirs and drinks and everything else was on your own.

Pete Mockaitis
Very cool, very cool. Well, kudos for that achievement and discipline and advance planning and some of those topics and themes come up on Bigger Pockets. Could you orient listeners who are not familiar with Bigger Pockets? What’s it all about?

Mindy Jensen
Bigger Pockets is a website where basically you can learn how to invest in real estate. There’s a right way and there’s a thousand wrong ways to do it. If you do it the right way, you can most likely make money, definitely not break any laws.

You really don’t know what you don’t know. Something might sound really easy and then you start diving into it, you’re like, “Oh, I didn’t think of that. I didn’t think of that.” Our site exists to help you think of that and think of that. We have a blog and a forum and now two podcasts, the real estate investing podcast and the money podcast because not everybody is in a financial position to just start investing right away.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s true. When you say financial position, I’m reminded—my wife and I, we watched all the videos on buying your first property. I believe it was Scott Trench was the man on camera. He kept saying strong financial position with hand gestures. My wife and I, we kept alluding to that. “Do we have a strong financial position?” It’s wise advice as opposed to no money down stuff, which can up your level of risk.

Mindy Jensen
It can. Although, we do have a book called How to Invest with Low and No Money Down. No money down means none of your own money down, not no money down. Nobody’s going to give you a house without anything in it, except – actually there’s two.

If you can qualify for a USDA loan, which is more for a rural area or a VA loan if you are a veteran. Those are the only two loan programs that I know of that come with 0% down. But for the most part, you should have money to put into the property or at least have a cushion in case something goes wrong.

Pete Mockaitis
That is good. We ended up going with a Freddie Mac Home Possible program in a neighborhood that I guess they thought they wanted to encourage people to invest and move into from the last census track, but I’m sure when they update the census track it will probably no longer qualify. It was good timing.

Mindy Jensen
Yeah, that’s really good timing. They do lag – the government is the government. It is a huge slow-moving beast, so a lot of times what they think is rural, is no longer rural. I have a friend who got a USDA loan in one of the hottest areas in Northern Colorado, which is still considered technically rural, but they’ve got subdivision after subdivision popping up all over the place.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. Well, we’re starting to get into the tactical and that’s fine because I wanted to hear just one to orient folks. I think one cool, innovative thing that you do, which I had never even heard of is you purchase a home, you live in it for a while, while you’re renovating and then you resell it. What’s the story? How does it work?

Mindy Jensen
This is called a live in flip. I have done this eight times. I buy a house that is cosmetically ugly, but structurally sound so that I’m not moving into something that’s going to crumble around me. You’re not looking at something like a meth house or something with mold or something with significant issues.

I buy it. I move into it. It is my primary residence, so I get a lower mortgage rate because owner occupants have the lowest mortgage rates – owner occupants with the best credit have the lowest mortgage rates.

I fix it up for two years. Two is the magic number because if I sell it after two years, I pay no capital gains taxes on the increase – the difference in the value between what I bought it at and what I sold it for minus repairs. I pay no capital gains up to $500,000 because I’m married and up to $250,000 if I were single.

The house that I’m in now, I bought it for $176,000. I put roughly $100,000 into it. Currently I could put it on the market and sell it in a hot second for $500 or $525. There’s a significant amount of capital gains that I have realized in this home and I will pay no taxes on it when I sell it.

Pete Mockaitis
That is brilliant. That’s the kind of stuff that you pick up over at Bigger Pockets. I think that’s so cool. I just wanted to get that out there, so we can learn a little bit about you and sort of how you do your thing. But maybe let’s kind of get a broader perspective in terms of when we talk about financial freedom, how do you think about that and define it and what does that mean in real lived terms?

Mindy Jensen
I consider myself financially free, which to me means I don’t need to work in order to pay my bills, in order to feed my children, in order to put food on the table and have a roof over my head. I have enough money that I have saved up and invested so that I would never have to work again. That means that I can choose to work in a passion project, in a thing that doesn’t make me much money because the money is now out of the equation and now I can just do what I love.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. What are you doing then?

Mindy Jensen
Well, I work at Bigger Pockets. I talk about real estate all day long. You alluded earlier, we’re kind of getting into the weeds, please reign me in because I can literally talk about this all day. And I do, that’s my job. I really love doing that. While I am well compensated, I could work there for free, just don’t tell my boss.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s really cool. You hear that sort of enthusiasm for real estate on the podcast in terms of folks that they just eat, sleep, breathe and live it and love it.

Mindy Jensen
Yeah. I think that real estate is a really great investment. There’s a quote – I can’t remember who said it, “Buy land, they’re not making any more of it.” Real estate is – it’s not a totally finite amount or what am I trying to say here? Real estate isn’t a finite – there isn’t a finite amount of real estate in the world, but it’s still almost always rising in price.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right and we have population growing. That’s another reason I’m a fan of farmland as investments go because we continue to eat year after year and there are more people doing it.

Mindy Jensen
That is absolutely true. Farmland is not something I really know all that much about.

Pete Mockaitis
Anyway, so we talked about the two-year strategy, the house hacking. I’d love to get your take both on the earning more and the saving more sides of things. You’ve learned a ton from your work and your research and your enthusiasm and reading and talking to people. What have you discovered to be some of the most effective approaches, we’ll start with earning more, that you think would be applicable for professionals working in a job right now?

Mindy Jensen
You want to make yourself invaluable. You want to be the go-to person for fill in the blank. Whatever it is, you want your boss to think, “Oh, I’ve got a project. I’m going to give it to Pete because I know Pete’s going to do it. He’s not going to give me excuses. He’s not going to be late.”

There’s kind of a shortage of people who do a good job. There’s a lot of people who do an average job, who do a mediocre job. There’s no shortage of people who do a bad job. But the people who are really, really awesome at their jobs, that’s not all that common. If you can stand out, you can be so much more valuable.

Then when you are invaluable to your boss, you go in and you ask for a raise. This is something that so many people struggle with. They don’t want to ask for a raise. What’s the worst that can happen? Is your boss going to fire you because you asked for a raise? He’s not the right person to work – he or she – sorry, I don’t want to be sexist – isn’t the right person to work for anyway.

If you go in and you have solid data to back up why you deserve this raise and what you’ve done in the past year, in the past six months, how your job has changed or whatever, the worst that can happen is they say no or they no not right now. If they say not right now, ask them when. But I think so many people leave so much money on the table simply because they don’t ask for a raise.

Pete Mockaitis
I like a lot of what you’re saying here and to dig into some more. But that point about it’s kind of rare that people are awesome at their jobs, I second that. In doing the research for, “Hm, would anyone listen to this podcast?” I collected three different survey tools, which is pretty cool, and I got a sense that between 4 and 18% of people in the US were highly interested in listening to a podcast that would help them be awesome at their jobs.

It’s funny because sometimes I have guests who say, “Who wouldn’t want to be awesome at their jobs?” It’s like, well, it’s kind of the majority. We are a minority, so thank you listeners. It’s great to have you and be in a cool kids club.

And I was chatting with my buddy, Carl. Carl, he was working for actually it was a mortgage company. Carl was getting promoted quickly. I was like, “Carl, what’s your trick. What are you doing?” He just said, “I’m doing my job. I’m supposed to follow up on these leads so that’s sort of what I do all day. Then other people they do that for maybe half of the day.”

The other half they’re kind of – well they’re sort of chilling out in whatever way with chitchatting with people or Facebook or their phones or sort of whatever distractions enter their world. Yeah, awesomeness is rare and valuable and can get you paid.

I want to hear a little bit about the data point. What are some of your favorite resources or kind of pieces of information and numbers you would point to when you’re armed to have that ‘please give me a raise’ conversation well?

Mindy Jensen
This isn’t a conversation you can plan for in five minutes. If you are going to ask for a raise, you need to plan that out because you want to start keeping track of what you’re doing every day. I’ve got a couple stories. I don’t want to get too far into the weeds.

But I had a friend whose boss came up to her one day and said, “I don’t think you’re doing what you say you’re doing.” She went home that day and called me up and she got all mad. She’s like, “I can’t believe she would ask me this.” A couple of month later she got fired because her boss kind of gave her a head up, “Look, I think you’re not doing what you say you’re doing,” and she never proved her boss wrong.

At almost the exact same time, my husband’s boss said the same thing to him, but my husband’s boss said this because my husband was working – living in Colorado, the boss was in Chicago. He was working from home. My husband started keeping track of absolutely everything he did every single day. He turned it in every week to his boss. His boss didn’t ask him to do this. He just did this on his own.

After 18 months – he worked for the government, so it’s kind of a long, drawn out process – but after 18 months, the boss came to him and he said, “You don’t need to send me these anymore. I totally believe you’re doing what you say you’re doing.”

Your boss gives you money in exchange for the job. You should be keeping track daily or weekly what you’re doing. Your boss doesn’t want to see a list of 365 days’ worth of stuff you did, but you can kind of keep track every day. “Oh, today I did this. Today I did that. I worked on this project,” so when it comes time to ask your boss for a raise, you can show them your log.

They’re not going to read it. They’re just going to like, “Holy cow, I can’t believe you did this.” Then show them some bullet points. “I got that big contract that you were looking for,” “I increased my sales by this,” “I did that,” or whatever it is. Having proof that you did it goes a long way to getting the raise.

Your boss is going to see how dedicated you are to the job just by showing him all the things that you have – all the things you’ve been doing. Another place to start looking is Glassdoor. It’s a good place to get a comparison of what people in your area are making for doing the same job that you do.

Pete Mockaitis
Right.

Mindy Jensen
If you’re making $50,000 and everybody else in your area is making 55, you can ask for 60. I would always overshoot. Ask for 60 and say, “Look, everybody is making this, but here’s all the things that I’ve been doing and here’s why I deserve it.” Just going in and asking for a raise is not necessarily going to get you anything.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot. That practice associated with keeping track of what you’re doing I think would be so helpful on numerous dimensions. So many guests have said sort of their top habit for being awesome at their job is just having a simple list of okay, these are the one, two, three, limited number of things I’m going to do today, so they have that focus before emails or distractions sort of suck them into other agendas.

That practice one, gets you focused day by day and two, let’s you capture those bullets of achievement, whether that goes into a resume when it’s time to update it or for the annual review. You just have that ready to go and repurpose any which way to serve your needs.

Mindy Jensen
Yeah. I have one more quote that I’m going to butcher. It’s from George Carlin. Obviously he’s a comedian. He says, “Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that half of them are stupider than that.” Take out stupid and replace it with lazy. Think of how lazy the average worker is and realize that half of them are lazier than that. A very small amount of work will yield so many results just because you’re so much better than your peers.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, nice perspectives on the earning side. Any other favorite approaches you’d like to mention?

Mindy Jensen
No. There’s side hustles. If there’s no way to make more money at your current job, a side hustle is a great way to bring in extra income without committing to a totally second job. There’s – that, the sky’s the limit. What are your passions? What are you excited about? What do you want to do? Some side hustles pay more than others. Some are not so exciting. It depends.

I really think that at your main job, you’re most likely leaving a lot of money on the table simply by not asking for a raise, a specific dollar amount. “I’m making 50. I want to make 60, so I’m going to ask for 65. They win by giving me 61 and then I win because I only wanted 60,” or however that works.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh perfect. Let’s talk about the savings side of the equation. What are some of your favorite approaches there?

Mindy Jensen
My absolute favorite approach to saving money is to know where your money is going. You can’t know where to cut back, if you don’t know where it’s going right now. I used to say that your step number one is to check your spending, but really your number one step to having money should be to write down what your life goals are. What are your goals with money? What do you want to do with what you have?

After you’ve written that out, thought about what you really, really want, then start tracking your spending. You will be probably surprised at how you’re spending that you haven’t been tracking doesn’t really align with your goals. It might a little bit, but there’s always room for improvement.

One of the easiest ways to track spending is my friends over at WafflesOnWednesdays.com wrote up this amazing article. It is called How to Make Your Own Mobile Expense Tracking App in 30 Minutes. It’s free. They give you step-by-step instructions on basically how to take a Google form and create it to – customize it to your spending needs and put it on your phone. Every time you spend a dime, you track it in the spender – in the tracking app.

And what you will discover is “I do this too many times a month. I want to cut that back,” or “Wow, I didn’t know that about my spending. I’m glad I had this look at what’s going on.”

The first time I tracked my spending, I discovered that I went to the grocery store literally every single day. I was just picking up one thing. I was just picking up one other thing. When you go to the grocery store, you don’t just buy one thing. You buy one thing plus two others. But if you do that every day, that adds up to so much money spent. I was just going in, “Oh, I could use this or I could use that.”

It was between my house and the gym. I would go to the gym every morning, so I would just stop by on the way home. Once I started tracking my spending, I realized that’s not really what I want to be doing is throwing all of my money at the grocery store. I cut that back and my spending was cut – I’m not sure exactly how much I cut out of my spending, but it was significant and it was noticeable the next month.

Pete Mockaitis
I’d also love to get your take – so that mobile tracking app, that’s very clever. I’ve made something like that once to track my energy levels to sort of see, “Hm, are there some patterns associated with when I should do creative work versus focused detailed work.” That’s been very helpful. And so zippy, just push a button on the phone and boom, there’s a Google form and five seconds later you’ve got the data collected.

But for the lazy listener, who will say, “Mindy, can’t I just see what I’ve got on Mint.com. Won’t that sort of transaction log be sufficient for me when I use my credit cards?”

Mindy Jensen
You can if you like. When we first started tracking our spending, we had a spiral notebook with a pen and it was right by the door as I walked in, so I would see it and remember to mark down my spending. Whatever you can do to track your spending, whatever tactic works for you is the best option.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. We mentioned Mint.com. What about, any other sort of software or solutions that are helpful for folks. We’ve got the Google form approach on your phone, we’ve got the notebook, we’ve got Mint.com. I’ve heard of YNAB, You Need a Budget. Do you know people who love that? Are there any other solutions you’d point to?

Mindy Jensen
I know people who love YNAB. I believe it has a bit of a learning curve, but I know they’ve got really great tech support that can help you through that. I haven’t personally used it, so I don’t – I can’t say that it’s great or it’s terrible or whatever. I’ve never used it.

What worked for me the most was that notebook on the counter because it was in my face as I walked in the door. Whenever I walked in, I walked in through one door, so having it there – whatever you can use to remind yourself.

Now that I have this on the phone, it’s kind of fun to have it on the phone and I don’t even leave the grocery store or the parking lot, wherever I’m at, before I track my spending just so I don’t forget it. Having it on my phone makes it really easy to – it’s in my head all the time and it’s a game. Now it’s a game, “Oh, how little can I spend?”

Pete Mockaitis
I’m also intrigued by you’re keeping this practice alive and well, though you mentioned earlier, you’ve done eight houses worth of these living in flips and you are currently at financial freedom. It kind of reminds me of Warren Buffet, who continues to live modestly and thoughtfully about his expenses even though he’s got massive wealth.

Can you give me a view into that mindset of you’ve got more than enough money and you continue these practices? Some might say that’s unnecessary, what’s your take?

Mindy Jensen
When I was doing a little bit of research for your podcast, I heard you ask people about their favorite quote. My favorite quote for decades has been from Coco Chanel. She said, “I don’t care what you think about me. I don’t think about you at all.” She’s really sassy.

But I don’t care what other people think of me. If you don’t like my car, I don’t care. If you don’t like my clothes, I don’t care. I don’t have the latest phone. I have the phone that I have figured out. I don’t want a new phone because I don’t want to have to figure it out. I’m not the biggest techie person on the planet.

I have a house that looks nice, but it’s also – it looks nice because I’m getting ready to sell it to somebody who cares what their house looks like. I don’t care that you think I live in a dump when I move from here to the next place, which will be a dump when I move in, because it doesn’t affect me  what you or what other people think of me.

I think that’s a really big part of financial freedom. I’m not trying to keep up with the Jones’s. I don’t even know who the Jones’s are. It’s just a mindset. It’s a confidence thing. I would rather spend time with my children than have the latest phone. I’ve got a really good bicycle that I’ve had for something like 17 years. It still gets me where I need to go, so why do I need a new one just because they came out with a new version of it. Does that make sense?

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. I think a large part of that is you’re really clear on what you want, what you value and the priority and thusly, the other stuff falls away.

Mindy Jensen
It kind of does. I buy what I want to buy and it’s because I want – I buy for quality when I’m buying something where quality means something to me. Like coffee, that’s a big one in the financial freedom world. “Oh, don’t go to Starbucks.” I don’t go to Starbucks. I don’t particularly love the taste of their coffee, but I buy good coffee and I make it at home. It’s good and I don’t care that I don’t have a green cup in my hand or I don’t have the red holiday cup or whatever they’re doing now.

Pete Mockaitis
When you talked about buying for quality, that reminds me of the book, The Millionaire Next Door, which is so great and full of research.

They mentioned that the average price of shoes for millionaires, like what do they spend on their dress shoes, I will not remember the number and it probably needs to be adjusted for inflation, but it was something like 200 bucks. It was not like 600-dollar crazy luxury brand, but it was also not the cheapos. It was a shoe that they hoped to resole it and wear for a decade or two or three.

Mindy Jensen
I will say that if you’re a man, you can get away with that. Lady’s styles go in and out. But again, if you don’t care – I’m trying to think what – I don’t even know if I have any dress shoes right now because I don’t dress up and go anywhere. That’s not something that I enjoy. I don’t go to the opera, the cinema – not the cinema, the theatre.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, the theatre.

Mindy Jensen
Yeah. I don’t do any of that. I don’t – that’s not something I enjoy. I really loathe the opera. I’m not a fan. I’ll just leave it at that. I’m sure it’s beautiful and whatever. It’s just not something that I want to go to. But I do go to the symphony, the local symphony, which is held in the high school auditorium. You could – as long as you have on clothes, that’s all they need you to be wearing. That’s more my speed.

Pete Mockaitis
The dress code is clothes.

Mindy Jensen
Yeah, having a good quality item that – you spend on what is important to you. You save money on things that don’t matter, so you can spend on what’s important to you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well said. Let’s hear about some other approaches for the saving. Once you’ve got a clear picture on where your money’s going and some of the mismatches, you make some adjustments. What have you found to be some common recurring opportunities for lots of people overspend on this and there’s an easy way to stop doing that?

Mindy Jensen
A lot of people overspend on their phone plan, on their insurance, on recurring charges that they don’t really think about.

Okay, one thing that I have heard – one recommendation that I have heard from a lot of different people is to go through your credit card statements every single month and make sure that the recurring charges are the least amount that you can spend for the level of service or quality that you want.

Let’s say you have a phone plan from your big name phone company and it’s $100 a month and it includes unlimited texting and unlimited data. I don’t even know what’s available because I don’t use any data on my phone. But I use Ting, T-I-N-G.com. They run over the Sprint network. There’s a couple of different ones. Republic Wireless is another one. I think Cricket Wireless is also a low cost, but don’t quote me on that.

Where my plan, my basic plan is $15 a month. That includes unlimited Wi-Fi, phone calls, and a few other things, and like a gig of data or something that I never go over because I hardly ever use it. But they have different levels of plans and you only pay for what you’re using.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s fascinating. You can just sort of take your existing phone once your contract is up and say, “Hey, Ting me up.”

Mindy Jensen
It depends. You would have to talk to Ting to make sure that your phone is compatible. I think that not all phones are compatible. This is something that I don’t do a lot of. I got on Ting and then I never look at it again. I have the same phone for a long time because I don’t want to learn a new phone. I just want to have Google maps and the ability to text and make a phone call.

Pete Mockaitis
Got you.

Mindy Jensen
Then everything else is bonus.

Your insurance, your car insurance, your home insurance. One thing that I have noticed is that your premiums go up every year. If you shop around to other companies, you might get a teaser rate or you might get a lower rate simply because your insurance company is kind of banking on you to be lazy and not-

Pete Mockaitis
Like the cable companies do. Yeah.

Mindy Jensen
Kind of like the cable companies do, yeah. Do you need everything that’s in that list of insurance? When I first starting driving, I had full coverage. Now I have pretty basic coverage because I’m a good driver and I don’t hit people. I’m covered if somebody else hits me. I have enough money to cover the old car that I have, which I probably wouldn’t get anything for anyways.

I don’t have coverage if I hit somebody. I don’t coverage for my own vehicle. But I also haven’t been in an accident that was my fault since like 1992 or something like that.

Another thing to do is raise your deductible. My deductible when I was a kid was like $100 because I couldn’t scrape together anything more than that. Now I think it’s $2,000 because I can come together with $2,000 and have everything else covered.

Just review your recurring charges, ask for discounts everywhere you can. Again, what’s the worst that they’re going to do? They’re going to say no. Then you threaten to cancel the account or you cancel it and go someplace else that gives you a better price.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s nice. I also like one takeaway I picked up from Bigger Pockets is to focus in on the big areas of spending and to not stress so much, like the latte, “Oh I love the latte. I don’t want to give up the latte.” Well, the latte matters less than what you’re spending on your home, your domicile, your living arrangement, your transportation or car, and your food, your groceries, what you’re consuming, whether it’s out or in. Do you have any pro tips on optimizing those big ones?

Mindy Jensen
I do have pro tips on optimizing those big ones. Let’s start with your car. Do you need your car? Do you need it all the time? Do you have an alternative way to get to wherever it is you’re going in the car? Most people use their car to get to work. How close do you live to work?  Could you walk? Could you bike? Could you get a ride with somebody?

We have a guy at bigger pockets named Craig who used to rent out his car on Turo and made a lot of money doing it. He would take his bike to work. He would get a ride with somebody if he needed to. He just rented his car out all the time. That’s a way to get rid of your expense when you don’t really need the item.

Housing, you can – Airbnb, you can rent out the unused portions of your home. You can have a roommate. How much space do you have that’s just vacant and not being used ever? You house hack.

There’s a lot of ways to cut down your expenses, eliminate them, even make money on your previous liability, now it’s an asset, simply by tweaking something. If you don’t want to move, you could just rent out a room in your house. Maybe you’re not having your entire mortgage paid, but any portion of your mortgage that you don’t have to pay is a win.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. How about on the food side of things?

Mindy Jensen
On the food side of things, I would absolutely recommend to plan your meals. Look at inexpensive food ingredients. Sweet potatoes are inexpensive and potatoes are inexpensive. Look for ways to build your meals around inexpensive staples with a pinch of something else.

If you are a meat eater, maybe you have a small amount of meat with your very vegetable heavy meal. I am a meat eater, so we do have a lot of meat. But I do have a daughter who saw this movie called Free Birds, which is a cartoon. That was the first time she equated turkey that you eat with turkey the bird and has never eaten a piece of meat since, so I have learned to do a lot of vegetarian meal planning.

Beans are cheap. Canned beans are cheap, but dried beans are even cheaper. You can buy in bulk. Plan your meals around these protein sources that aren’t meat, which is fairly expensive.

Pete Mockaitis
I love if you have dried beans, if you throw them in an Instapot, you can get them raring to go and eat pretty quickly without the whole soaking process, so there’s another one.

Mindy Jensen
That’s what I’ve heard. I don’t have an Instapot, so I can’t speak to that. But there’s – go to – excuse me – go to Pinterest.com and look up 50 billion recipes for insert ingredient here. “What I can do with canned beans?” or “What can I do with dried beans?” “Oh, here’s 47 recipes for you.” Chile is a super hearty meal that you can make and – you just throw in a bunch of stuff in that pot.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s wild just how far you can take this. The Wall Street Journal recently had an article about the FIRE movement, Financial Independence Retire Early. They profiled someone whose monthly grocery bill was $75 and that’s what does it for eating for one for a month, $75.

Mindy Jensen
That is not my budget. Good for her for being able to do it. She had tips like buy produce that isn’t optimal. I think there was this quote that was kind of bandied about in the FIRE community, “Oh, she eats brown bananas.” So what? That’s when they’re the best. The Chiquita banana song, “When they’re flecked with brown and have a golden hue, bananas taste the best and are the best for you.” I don’t know, sorry.

Pete Mockaitis
I love it. Any musical number is welcome. We’ll take them all.

Mindy Jensen
Great. My grocery store has a dented aisle. It doesn’t matter if there’s a dent. It doesn’t matter that something – the can is – the box is crushed on the corner unless it’s taco shells. Those are always just disintegrated. Don’t buy those in the dented aisle. But everything else – like I have a box of cereal it’s got a dent in it, so instead of $4.99, it’s $0.99. I’ll take that every day.

Pete Mockaitis
This is handy in terms of earning more and saving more. What do you see are sort of the most common mistakes or difficult decisions that folks are really wrestling with when they’re trying to get their financial house in order?

Mindy Jensen
Personal finance is personal. It means it’s what happens to your finances. If you want to go to Starbucks every morning, then go. Put that into your budget and cut back on other things.

What I see people doing is reading – there’s a guy who’s been blogging since the beginning of time called Early Retirement Extreme. He lives on beans and rice and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. He’s okay with that. I’m not okay with that. I don’t live on beans and rice and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I see people thinking that it’s got to be this extreme thing when it doesn’t really have to be this extreme thing.

One of the things that we hear a lot on our podcast is “What did you do when you first discovered financial independence?” “Oh, I cut out everything.” Then month two, they add things back in. It is a good exercise to cut out everything to see what you really, really, really want, what means more to you than you thought it did and then add that back in.

But another way to do it is just cut out one thing at a time. Do you watch a lot of TV? We actually don’t watch a lot of TV, so we don’t have a TV plan. We just have Netflix. If you watch a lot of sports and it’s a big part of your life, then cut out something else that doesn’t mean so much to you. But don’t try to live my life because my life isn’t your life. You need to live your life. It all goes back to writing down your goals. What do you enjoy? What do you want out of this life?

Pete Mockaitis
I dig it. Well, Mindy, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Mindy Jensen
No, you’re pretty thorough, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh shucks. Thank you. All right, well, we heard your favorite quote, so how about a favorite book?

Mindy Jensen

My favorite book is called The Richest Man in Babylon. It was written in 1920 by George S. Clason. As you read it – it’s written in like King James Bible language, Shakespeare language. It’s – I love Shakespeare and I love that language, so it was fun for me to read. You don’t get a lot of books like that anymore, but it can be a little bit difficult to digest just based on the language.

But he talks about don’t spend every dime that you make. Don’t invest with people who really don’t know what they’re talking about. Pay yourself first. What’s really telling about this book is it was written almost 100 years ago and it’s all still true. There isn’t any bit of this advice that isn’t still valid.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s a good one. I remember I listened to an audio version of the book. I don’t know why, I’ll just remember it forever, the way the narrator did, it’s like, “The Richest Man in Babylon. Pay thyself first.” It was a good memory. Thank you.

Mindy Jensen

That is hilarious. Yeah, he probably sounds just like that. That’s a great-

Pete Mockaitis

It was very regal. It was like Patrick Stewart doing a Shakespeare thing.

Mindy Jensen

But it’s a really great book.

Pete Mockaitis

And how about a favorite tool?

Mindy Jensen

A favorite tool. I’m going to go back to that Waffles on Wednesday spending tracker, just because I don’t have a lot of tools that I use and I use that one all the time.

Pete Mockaitis

And a favorite habit?

Mindy Jensen

Favorite habit. Write down what you did that day. It’s really easy for Monday to turn into Friday and you get to the next Monday and you’re like, “Oh, what did I work on last week. I don’t remember.”

But get in the habit of writing down what you have accomplished, what you have worked on, even some failures, what you tried and didn’t work so that you can learn from that too so that you can represent yourself when you go to make a request for a raise, so you can represent yourself when you change jobs.

Do you remember what you did four jobs ago? I don’t. Four jobs ago was a really long time ago. But I don’t remember what I did four jobs ago, at least not day to day. “Oh, I entered products into the system.” That’s not exciting. What else did you do?

Pete Mockaitis

Very good. How about is there a particular nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate and get retweeted?

Mindy Jensen

Save on the things that don’t matter so you can spend on the things that do.

Pete Mockaitis

If folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Mindy Jensen

I am all over BiggerPockets.com. You can find me on Twitter at MindyAtBP, M-I-N-D-Y-A-T-B-P, for Bigger Pockets. My email is Mindy@BiggerPockets.com. I am slow to respond. It’s not you, it’s me. I’m inundated, but if somebody has a question about anything I love talking about everything I just talked to you about.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh cool. Do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Mindy Jensen

I would just challenge everybody to start tracking what they’re doing with their life, what they’re doing in their job, what they’re doing with their spending. Just start keeping track of stuff. It doesn’t have to be some detailed minute-by-minute account of what you did at your job that day or penny-by-penny accounting of your spending, just a general overall picture will give you a lot of insight into how you are living.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, Mindy, this has been so much fun. Thank you for the good work you do at Bigger Pockets and sharing the good word. I wish you lots of luck in all you’re up to, the next house sale and purchase and all the rest.

Mindy Jensen

Pete, thank you for having me. I had a really, really fun time.

Pete Mockaitis
Andy, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Andy Hill
Pete, thank you so much for having me, man. This is awesome.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh boy. Well, I’ve been looking forward to having this chat for a while, and I think I want to start where the conversation really needs to start, which is your role in an ‘80s cover band.

Andy Hill
Oh, you did dig deep, didn’t you now? Okay. So, in my 20s…

Pete Mockaitis
Aren’t you still in your 20s? You look so youthful and handsome.

Andy Hill
That’s just the picture I still have on there. It’s totally 10 years ago. Overall I just like to try random things every five or six years just to kind of shake things up a little bit. So, I had an opportunity to go into an ‘80s cover band with a few of my friends. I was out at the bar, drinking and having fun and doing karaoke with one of my buddies, and maybe he was drinking too much, but after we finished our little set there, he goes, “Hey, you’re not too bad. We should start an ‘80s cover band.” And I was three sheets to the wind or five sheets to the wind, “Whatever you say.” And I said, “Oh yeah, let’s do it.”

So, he could play the guitar, I could sing, kind of. Then we found a random dude on Craigslist that could play the drums, and we were all set, man. So we started booking the local dive bars, after we practiced for about six months learning all the great ‘80s songs, ‘90s songs. And honestly, Pete, it was probably one of the most fun things that I’ve ever done in my life. Getting up there, making a fool of yourself, having some fun with your friends. And we blew some of these dive bars away, because we’d get a slot booked at like 1:00 am on a Wednesday night, and we would pack the place – something like 45 people there that’d be like, “You could come back whenever you want.” They don’t even care how we sounded, but no, it was probably one of the best things I’ve ever done in my life, honestly.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that is excellent. There really is just a thrill associated with performing and being in that groove. So, that’s really fun. So what was the name of the band?

Andy Hill
It was called Vermont Response. The street that we lived on was called Vermont, and it was sort of our response from living there. It was kind of lame, but it was fun.

Pete Mockaitis
And how would you characterize the message of that response?

Andy Hill
It was epic, I would say, mind-blowing and transformative. Talk about those for some career awards for you.

Pete Mockaitis
Those are nice. Speaking of things that are epic, mind-blowing and transformative, you’ve got a podcast that checks those boxes, called Marriage, Kids and Money. What’s the show all about?

Andy Hill
So again, in the spirit of trying random new things every so often, I started a podcast a couple of years ago because I wanted to start a conversation with young parents who want to build their wealth and give their families the best life possible.

Pete Mockaitis
Hey, that’s me.

Andy Hill
Exactly, exactly. You’re a young father, you’ve got a nine-month-old and you’re married and you’re looking at building your wealth, so you’re my exact demographic, my friend. I wanted to start that conversation and gather some like-minded individuals who want to figure out how to grow their wealth. But also it’s an opportunity for me to interview some really smart people who are millionaires, entrepreneurs that are doing so great by their family, and I get to share all those incredible nuggets with everybody who’s listening. So, it’s been a real treat for me, and the podcast has had some good growth over the past couple of years.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent. Well, kudos and congratulations, and thank you for inviting me on the show. That was a good time. What really caught my eye about you and the show is when we met back in Podcast Movement over in Philadelphia. You had a few specific things you did that bumped up your income in the course of doing some smart career planning and maneuvering. And so I thought, “This is perfect”, because that’s one of the things my listeners are into, is making some more money from being awesome at their jobs. So, could you lay it out for us? What’s your story, and how did you do it?

Andy Hill
Yeah, so I’ve been in the experiential marketing world for about 15 years. So experiential marketing, just so you know, it’s anything that’s in-person manifested marketing for a brand. So instead of a TV commercial or an online ad, this is the stuff you’d see in-person, and call it like a conference or a trade show or a business meeting. That’s the type of stuff that I’ve been doing for the past 15 years. So, within that industry, I’ve had an opportunity to grow my salary in three key moments throughout my career. And I thought that would be kind of fun to share with your listeners today.

Pete Mockaitis
Please do.

Andy Hill
So a time, again, in my late 20s – and I’m very glad that you think I’m still in my 20s, thank you for that – I had the opportunity to go from manager to director. So this was a promotion opportunity within the company that I was in. And there was a position that was open. It had been vacated by somebody who was not on the team anymore. And I was in a more junior role, but I had developed a good reputation, working, going above and beyond my expectations both with my clients, as well as my management.

So, when that opportunity arose, I jumped at it. I expressed my interest, I set aside a time to speak with the president of the company and tell them why I would be a good fit, all the things that I had done up until that point, my experience with the client. And this was a coveted position at the time, so I wanted to do my best and put my best foot forward for it. So, I applied, I went through a review process, an interview process, and I got the job.

And with that, since I was a young whippersnapper, I didn’t think that they were going to probably give me the dollars that I thought were required for the position, because I had an idea of what the person who was in the position before was making. So, I made a suggestion on salary and they met me in the middle. But it was essentially a 46% increase in my salary, which when you’re not making a lot, that, call it a 3% increase can be very little.

So, if you get the opportunity to go from a manager to a director position, what I did is I tried to understand the landscape of what a director was making in that position, and I made the request for that salary increase, knowing the responsibilities that were going to be associated with it, the hours that were going to be associated with it, that travel that was going to be associated with it. And I was able to get that increase. So, that was the first bump up that I had within my first company at the same company.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, very cool. So let’s dig into the magic behind it then. I guess you already had some good foundational points to work with, in terms of you had already been proactively overdelivering for clients and for management. And then when you saw the opportunity, you didn’t just click, click, apply. You went after it with some gusto, in terms of talking to the president of the company, saying that you’re very interested in it and making your case. And then you also did some proactive research, in terms of getting after what is the number, so that you can proactively suggest it and do some anchoring, as opposed to letting them just do what they cared to do with that number.

Andy Hill
Absolutely. And I think that since I was my best cheerleader… I know that sometimes the companies are doing their best to make as much money as possible, and yes, give fair raises or fair increases in salary, but you have to be your own advocate. So I was in that case, and that really helped.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent, cool. Alright, so that was one good move. And you had a couple more.

Andy Hill
Yeah, a couple of years later. So that was 2010 when that happened, and 2013, about three years later, I had the opportunity to go from one company to another. So this is another opportunity when you can make more money in your career. So, I was very active on LinkedIn. When I say “active”, I mean I consistently shared information about my industry, information about my company, I constantly updated my profile based on experience that I had, awards that we were able to win as a company, and my volunteer efforts, things like that. So I wanted to be out there and create conversations.

Pete Mockaitis
So when you’re talking sharing – like every day, or what kind of frequency are we talking about here?

Andy Hill
I typically do about two times per week, and I’ve read some articles, I think HubSpot recommends no more than five times per week, just because it gets a little bit overdone, and also based on LinkedIn’s algorithm it touches quite a bit of your network between that two to five number per week. So, usually I take an opportunity to talk about my company’s services or my business accomplishments, things like that, that are relevant to keep people in the know about what’s going on, what’s going on with Andy, what’s going on with my company. And that helps keep the information going.

Pete Mockaitis
And in your world of experiential marketing, you are in a sales or business development function?

Andy Hill
Correct, yeah. So, another reason for me to put ourselves out there. I’m going put my company out there because we are constantly trying to earn new business. So that’s a big part of my role.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, understood. So, you rocked at the LinkedIn, and what happened?

Andy Hill
So, I get contacted by a recruiter. And I really wasn’t actually looking to make a shift at that point, because I was pretty happy with my role. I was doing pretty well in it, and growing the business. But I took the call anyway, because I was interested in understanding what am I worth out there, what other opportunities are there out there, because it’s not bad to make a change every once in a while. So I got an offer from a competing company. I was at maybe a 30 or 40-person company, and then the company that was offering me the job was essentially the largest experiential company in the world. So I said, “Oh yeah, I’ll take that conversation. I’ll take that call.”

And through that conversation and the negotiations that went forward, I had the opportunity to make about 25% more than what I was making at that point. And luckily, at that same time I got two other offers on LinkedIn, at the same time. So, I essentially had three offers in front of me at one point, on one weekend, when I could review them with my family and make a decision that would obviously impact where we would go as a family, but also our income level. So, based on reviewing those three offers, I decided to go with the original offer because I was very excited about that company, working with the industry leader.

And at that point I let the other two companies know; one of them said, “Congratulations, good luck. We could never pay you that.” And the other said, “We’ll match it. Come over with us.” And at that point I had a decision to make, but I again stayed with the original offer because I was excited about working with that company. So, I would like to say that being active on LinkedIn and spending a lot of time on there and making my profile well known helped me to get those three offers at one time, because those were all not me seeking them; they were inbound offers from recruiters. So, that really helped me to jump up another 25%.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. So, in the LinkedIn game, do you have any tips, in terms of when it comes to the content that you’re sharing? You could do that well, you could do that poorly. Any pro tips on how do you find and determine, “Yes, this is worthy of my imprimatur, my sharing of this broadly”?

Andy Hill
I try to make it industry-specific, specific to my company or specific to the industry that I’m in, to start to create conversations around that area. I might not be an influencer in experiential marketing, but I at least want to start some conversations that create that type of environment there. And with that, I’ve started some conversations, I’ve asked some probing questions: “What are your thoughts around this area?” And it starts to get engagement from people who are at least partners in the industry or potential clients.

And there’s a lot more people that are engaged on social media than ever before, so you’d be surprised at how much engagement you can actually get from those types of connections. So, I don’t have hundreds of thousands of connections on there; I’ve got maybe 2,500, but over the years that’s really helped me to expand my network, expand conversations, and then really do outreach both on a sales platform, as well as just opportunities like this to get a new job.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And could you share an example of a probing question? I’m wondering what the hottest, most controversial topic might be, or if that’s something that you shy away from, or something that you go for, like, “Yeah, this’ll get them lathered up!”

Andy Hill
Well, I still feel like LinkedIn is like being in the office. You might not say things that you would say on Twitter or on Facebook that you’d say on LinkedIn. I like to think of LinkedIn like I’m having conversations within the office, so I steer clear of political conversations, religious conversations, anything that might steer people in the wrong directions.

But as far as a probing question, one of our clients is Ally Bank, and I just posted something today about… They had a celebration yesterday for Online Savings Day as essentially a holiday that they created on Monday. So I threw out a probing question based on one of the articles that they had been a part of: “Do you think that you could go all online and not have a brick and mortar bank?” So having conversations like that not only helps to promote my client, but it also starts to create conversations. And a little conversation started to happen out of it. So, people understand who my client is, what we’re talking about within our industry, and then discussions start to happen. So, that’s just a little example.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. When I mentioned controversy, certainly we’re not going to go, “Do you think Trump sucks? Why or why not?”

Andy Hill
Exactly. There’s some of that happening on there, unfortunately.

Pete Mockaitis
That would be ill advised, I think, as a career pointer, I’d suggest, because you’re going to infuriate half of the people that you’re engaging with. So there’s that. But that is a nice example, because I guess that could be a little bit, I don’t know if “touchy” is the right word, but if it’s a purely online only bank, then they’re hoping the answer for everybody is “Yes.” But not everyone does have that opinion. So, in a way that makes it kind of spicy, kind of interesting. It’s more, I guess, real instead of the polished branded advertisement messaging, in terms of, “We’re going to have a real conversation, in terms of there are some pros and cons about moving in this direction, and let’s hear what people think.”

Andy Hill
Absolutely. It’s fun to see the conversations being facilitated. Sometimes it’s just like a video or an article saying, “Here’s something that our company wrote”, or you just post the article. And that doesn’t really start any conversation or facilitate any conversation. So, I like to ask some questions like that, that are a little bit more engaging.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, very cool. And so in so doing, you meet some new people and they think, “This Andy guy is pretty sharp. He seems to be plugged in to the right stuff.” And then over time that just makes people think of you when they’ve got an opportunity to dole out.

Andy Hill
Absolutely, yeah. And I’ve even had people reach out to me that asked me to post something on our company’s behalf, as opposed to our company, just based on the engagement that I’ve had on LinkedIn too. So, it pays, it shows, and that gives the opportunity to continue to expand conversations.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really cool. Do you have any other quick do’s and don’ts for LinkedIn?

Andy Hill
Yeah, let’s see. No, I think we covered it.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright, very good. So then there’s a third step in your rise to wealth, and what was it?

Andy Hill
Yeah, so we touched on the opportunity to get a promotion within your current role, and then moving from one company to another. And then the last one is getting a salary increase in your same role at your current company. And that’s what I was able to do recently as well. So, the steps that I took to make this happen, especially when you get up to a director role and you continue to have more responsibility and expect more out of you for the increased pay – I wanted to not only request the additional salary increase, but I had to show that I was worth it. So for the couple of years prior to that, I worked on exceeding all of my goals and making sure that they were measurable, because sometimes it’s hard to go in and ask for more money if you can’t show how you measurably made change within the organization.

So, with that armed information, I had that actually written down, specifically what accomplishments or what expectations were asked of me, how I exceeded those, and how I did that consistently year over a year. So, I included that not only in an email, but also in a written letter that I in-person supplied to my supervisor, and then also verbally shared those expectations and accomplishments, and had that meeting face-to-face, and did it with confidence, because I was proud of what I had done. And when you’re able to sit down there and share what you feel like you deserve, based on some research that you could do maybe on Glassdoor or some conversations with people who are in your position, maybe at other companies or maybe some people you’re really close with at your company to get an understanding of what the going rate is for your role, so you’re not asking for something ridiculous.

I was able to go in there and have a good conversation, supervisor to subordinate, on what was fair for my role. And based on that conversation and the detail, I had asked for 10%, I got 8%, which was totally fine because I was happy with 8%. So, as you can see, as the roles continue, the percentage decreases just based on where you are and as your salary level increases. At least it has in my case. I’m very happy with that increase though recently. So, those are the three ways that I’ve increased my salary over the years, originally being in the five-figure range to now the six-figure range – from moving internally with promotion, from going one company to another, and then just asking for a straight up salary increase in the same role.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s really cool. And so then, for the request of the salary increase in the same role, it seems like it was very clear what you were doing, in terms of there was some advance notice in terms of, “Hey, here’s the letter, and I want to set up this meeting.” And then away you went. Is that right?

Andy Hill
Right, exactly. Catching the supervisor off-guard maybe is something I didn’t want to do. So I had sent the email beforehand, had a phone call with the person just saying, “Hey, this is a meeting that I’d like to set up with you and discuss further”, so that they had time to think about it. And then obviously after the meeting concluded, it wasn’t like, “Yes, here you go!” There’s some time for the supervisor to consider it and think about it, and then speak to their senior management about it and then go from there. So, having some patience with the process and understanding that it might take a little bit of time is definitely suggested.

Pete Mockaitis
I like your point about the patience with the process, and I’m thinking about a listener who shared a story in which she’s asked a few times for a raise or a title shift because of generating some outstanding results, with regard to acquiring funds for the organization. And it’s really weird, because the response seems to be like, “Yeah, we really appreciate all your contributions. These are really great results. And yeah, we’re very excited and it’s important. But because of this upcoming reorganization or the way the budget is established…” There seems to be a force outside of strictly meritocracy and results generated that seems to slow it down. And I don’t know if you’ve got any pro tips for how do you handle that one and when do you say “Enough is enough” and you start looking elsewhere?

Andy Hill
I don’t know. I think for that person, if it were me, I would really analyze how much do I really like where I’m working. If I really like where I’m working and a raise would make me feel much better about where I’m working – that’s okay. But making a jump to a new company, you’ve got to think about a lot of other things besides just salary. You’ve got to think about your commute – is it shorter, is it longer? What are the benefits are associated with my role? Is there a flexibility with my schedule right now in the company that I’m in, and then the one I have to go to I have to kind of go crazy 10 to 12-hour days just to prove my worth in the beginning? Who’s my supervisor going to be? What’s the work environment like?

There’s lots of other factors besides salary if you were to move to another company. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t, but I would say do it for the right reasons. If you feel like you are kicking major butt and then you are not getting the money that you feel like you deserve and comparing that to some stuff on Glassdoor, maybe some conversations with other people who are in your role – then it can’t hurt to look. We’re in a good economy. Start some conversations.

A great thing to do is even just take some calls from recruiters or have some conversations to build up your confidence being like, “You know what? I am worth this. I’m marketable out there for this rate, and my company is not giving it to me.” So, I don’t know, maybe it’s some internal conversations to say, “How much do I really like working here?” And if you really like working there, outside of some of the salary type situation, salary conversations, it’s something to consider.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright, excellent. So Andy, you shared a number of cool fundamentals, associated with your three steps to higher compensation at work. Are there additional principles and tactics that you recommend, you’ve heard, you’ve seen effective for others in practice, that folks should tackle if they’re looking to bump up their pay at work?

Andy Hill
I think a lot of it before you ask for that money or before you take that next jump is, a couple of things. I think you just have to establish credibility. You’ve got to be somebody that people can rely on. Your reputation really matters in the workplace. If you’ve developed a reputation for somebody who says they’re going to get something done and they do it well and they do it above and beyond – that’s a great place to be as an employee, because people are going to have that…

Especially whatever industry you are, sometimes it’s smaller than you think it is. People know who you are at different companies. People are aware of who you are within your larger organization for being a leader. So, going above and beyond your job description, being reliable – I think those are great ways not only just to live personally, but also just to set yourself up for those raises and salary bumps.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent. So, we talked about the “earning more money” side of things. I’d love to get some of your pro tips on the savings side.

Andy Hill
Sure, absolutely. With regard to being an employee, there are so many great opportunities to save for your future at your workplace. So, a great place to start, and it’s something that I ignored immediately when I was in my 20s is your office place 401(k). So, taking advantage of any match that might exist from your employer with 401(k), and also taking advantage of compound interest as early as possible. So, for those folks that haven’t signed up for their 401(k), you’ve got to start as early as possible and take advantage of that growth, because over time the more you put in it, the more it grows. So, taking advantage of the 401(k) is a great way to go.

Some companies have an HSA program – Health Savings Account – and this is also sort of a stealth way to save for your retirement as well, but it also is a great savings vehicle to help protect you in case of any health emergencies as sort of a savings backup as well. Outside of those two routes, an IRA – Roth IRA or traditional IRA, depending on your income level – are great ways to save for retirement. And then outside of that, if you need to trick yourself to save a little bit of money just in a savings account, you can also work with your employer to divert some of your salary straight into a savings account so you’re building up an emergency fund, so emergencies turn into inconveniences.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s great. And it’s amazing how that works, in terms of your mindset: “Okay, this is the money I have available, because it’s the money that I see in the account that’s in front of me or that I’m logged into it.” And I remember at Bain, where I was working previously, it was so funny how this would happen again and again. You had the option to divert a portion of your paycheck into the travel fund. So, you could have pretax dollars funding your, here in Chicago, the Chicago Transit Authority CTA card, to ride the “L” – elevated line, or the bus.

So that’s kind of cool. It’s like, if we’re commuting with the train into work, why not use pretax dollars, save 30% plus. That sounds like a good move. But what was so funny was, because it was so easy to forget about, and people often for one reason or another didn’t use it, because they were traveling, out of town for a week here or there, or they ended up taking a taxi – that was back in the day – or something into work, given certain circumstances, or working from home, whatever.

It would just pile up such that two years, three years later when these employees are headed off to business school, they would have these epic transit account balances, and they would sell it at a discount. Like, “Hey, I’m off to Harvard Business School. Anybody want $800 of credit for the CTA? I’m selling it at a discount. Let the bidding begin, the auctioning.” And it just kind of cracked me up. I was like, that is the power of money quietly just being siphoned away that you don’t even see or think about until you open up the account a couple of days before you’ve got to move.

Andy Hill
Well, think about that CTA example with a 401(k) then – so it’s quietly going in there, but it’s going to build compound interest. So that $800 is going to be, I don’t know, it’s going to be a lot more than what you had. So, CTA example – that’s probably not the best, but definitely do your 401(k).

Pete Mockaitis
I guess what was so kicking – or I don’t know if that’s the word – it was so striking and surprising was how again and again and again, folks were surprised that this happened. They’re like, “Whoa, there’s a lot of money in there. Oh geez.”

Andy Hill
There needs to be an eBay store for the CTA cards.

Pete Mockaitis
I did buy one, but then go figure. I didn’t manage to use it all.

Andy Hill
That’s so funny.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Any other sort of ninja tactics or tricks when it comes to saving the money? One way – great, out of sight, out of mind. That’s a good one. Anything else come to mind?

Andy Hill
I love the automation side of things. If you can trick yourself into thinking that you don’t actually have that money coming into your account, you can’t spend it. I think that’s just a great way to trick yourself into saving money, both for your retirement, as well as for an emergency. And I think a lot of times if you have that money built up in your retirement, you have that money built up in your emergency fund, or just general savings, it gives you more confidence at work, it gives you a little bit more pride walking around. You don’t feel as timid to maybe ask for a raise, or ask for what you feel like you’re worth. So, I think there’s sort of an intrinsic pride that comes in there with having your money situation set. It also allows you to ask for some things you need, for some things you think you deserve, and gives you that confidence to walk around the office like you deserve it.

Pete Mockaitis
I think that’s really powerful. And I’ve been reflecting on the work of Chase Hughes, who I hope to have on the show shortly. He’s talking about those very things, like when you’ve got control over your environment, your time, your appearance, your finances, you just naturally have this extra confidence and status, and just ready-to-go-ness with you everywhere you go, whether you’re asking for more money or for a date, or for whatever you’re seeking.

Andy Hill
I agree, and I think your employer sees that too. They want to work with confident people, especially if you’re in front of clients. They want to put their best people forward. So, have that confidence and yeah, take care of your money.

Pete Mockaitis
I also want to get your take on – so, your podcast is called Marriage, Kids and Money. We’ve talked only about money, but I want to hit the marriage and kids part there for a bit. Boy, this is a tricky one. I don’t know if anyone has the foolproof answer, but the challenge associated with what some call work-life balance and others call work-life integration, can be that folks feel this guilt associated with, “Boy, when I leave work, maybe it’s at a reasonable hour, maybe it’s early, maybe it’s late – I feel guilty, like I’m letting down my boss or my colleagues. But I need to be there for my family. But when I have to work more at the office and I’m away from family, then I feel like I’m letting them down.” And so it’s like we’re committed to two important things, and some people are plagued by guilt they’re abandoning one of them. What’s your take on navigating this beast?

Andy Hill
Oh yeah, that’s a tough one. I think a couple of things. One thing that pops into my mind is just setting expectations, both for your family, as well as your workplace. So there are times that my wife understands that work is going to be nuts this week – I’m going to be traveling out of town, I’m going to be traveling globally, I’m going to be working until midnight. If I set those expectations up beforehand, there’s less family strife at home. Now, if you work until midnight every night with a regular salary job, that’s a different scenario. That’s maybe a conversation with your supervisor, or a lifestyle change, or a job change. But I think if you set expectations with your family, when those tough times happen, the conversations can be a bit easier.

The same thing can happen with your employer – setting expectations with them about when you’re available, how you’re going to be able to work. And yes, maybe this is more how you roll, but some things that I’ve done, when I get home on Friday at 5:00 pm, I’ve tried to do this as a practice for the past couple of years – I turn my phone off, I turn my email off, because I want to focus on my family. That can be different for everybody else, but the place that I’ve chosen to work is good with that, they’re okay with that. And yes, sometimes there are things that happen that require my attention over the weekend, but 90%-95% of the time it’s a practice that’s appreciated from other people that I work with, my supervisors.

I’m actually very proud to work for a company, to work for a supervisor that is a family man, that understands the things that I’m going through. I’ve worked in the past, and there’s nothing wrong with people in different situations, but I’ve worked with people in the past that are single and they live for their work. They work 80 hours a week and that’s all they can think about and they can’t understand why people need anything else. I don’t strive well in work environments like that. I like working with people who have a family, that have hobbies, that have things outside of their work life in order to be a fulfilling individual, to have something else. That’s where thrive.

And I think that’s actually a good thing for offices. That’s where creativity comes from, if you’re not just on email all the time, or your nose in work. If you go out, you spend time with your family, you experience culture, you experience music, different types of things that you can bring into your work life that actually excite clients or excite the individual projects that you’re working on – I think that’s a good thing. So I think setting expectations with your family, setting expectations with your workplace is a great place to start.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, very well said. And that’s good to note, in terms of, I remember one listener mentioned, “My boss and my boss’s boss and my boss’s boss’s boss – none of them have kids. And I do.” And I can kind of see that there’s a disconnect. Not to say that of course you must have the same life priorities and station in life in order to connect and resonate and understand and be flexible, but it does make you think in terms of, “Okay, are we aligned on this point? And if not, are you cool with this being a priority for me when it’s not for you?”

Andy Hill
Right, exactly, especially I understand you have a good female contingent that listens to your show. There’s going to be some time where if you want to have children, that your life is not going to be very close to somebody that doesn’t decide to have kids. Having a baby, going through the three months after having a baby, all the things that go through your life physically and emotionally – I feel like it’s a great opportunity to work at a place where you have people that understand your situation. And yes, it can’t be a quick change to switch jobs, but thinking about that and then putting yourself in the shoes of your employer – are they somebody that understands your situation? Did they have a wife in that situation? Did they have kids? I think it’s something to note for sure.

Pete Mockaitis
Very cool. Well, Andy, tell me – anything else you want to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Andy Hill
I think you did a great job, man.

Pete Mockaitis
Aw shucks, thank you. Cool. Now, could you tell us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Andy Hill
Absolutely, yeah. One that I like is from Benjamin Franklin. It’s, “Diligence is the mother of good luck.” And I think that kind of talks about a little bit of what we talked about today. I think we can hope and pray for good things, we can hope and pray for good fortune to come our way, but we have to put the work into it, we’ve got to put the action into it. We have to fail. We’ve got to do some trial and error to get where we need to go, but you have to put action to it. So, I like that quote a lot. I end a lot of my shows with the quote “Carpe Diem” too. It’s all about action. What can we do to take action today to have our best life? So, that’s one of my favorite quotes.

Pete Mockaitis
And can you share a favorite study or experiment or a bit of research?

Andy Hill
Yeah. I don’t have a lot of experiments, studies or pieces of research that fit into a lot of what I’ve done at work, but one thing that I read about from Scientific American, which is a cool article that got me jacked up about fatherhood. There’s this magic moment when expectant fathers see that mid-pregnancy ultrasound for the first time, and instead of thinking of cuddling or feeding the baby, the dads’ brains go straight to, “What can I do to provide the future needs of this child?”

Pete Mockaitis
No kidding.

Andy Hill
“What can I do to save for their college? What can I do to help them with their future wedding?” And this is a research study by the University of Wisconsin. I thought that was super interesting, because that’s what happened to me. A lot of this drive to increase my salary, or to take care of my money, all happened around the time that I found out I was going to be a father. And I kind of went nuts on it. I kind of went, “Okay, wow, I need to protect my family. I need to go into Papa Bear protection mode.” And I guess there’s some science around it. So, I kind of thought that was interesting to share.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that really is interesting. And I remember the very day my wife told me that we’re pregnant, and it’s on video. I sort of figured something was up when she was videotaping me opening a little gift bag with the pregnancy test in it. At first it was like, “Oh wow”, tears and joy and excitement and gratitude and “Wow.” And then, just moments afterwards, it I was like, “We’ve got to buy this house.” [laugh] I’m on video saying this, so it’s dead on. It was like, “We can’t keep frittering away $2,000 a month on this absurd rent. We’re going to buy a multifamily home and get our tenants to pay the mortgage for us”, which we pulled off, and it’s been quite pleasant. I recommend that strategy as one option for folks.

Andy Hill
That’s awesome. So you went into straight, “What can I do to protect my family? I want to give them the best.” That’s awesome.

Pete Mockaitis
We were kind of going to some showings here and there. And it was like, “No, this isn’t a hobby anymore.”

Andy Hill
“We need the nest.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And how about a favorite book?

Andy Hill
For my career, I would say one book that I read early on that I refer back to every once in a while is How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. It’s a 100-year-old book, and I love the advice. It’s still super applicable to everyday life and my work life. It just has some very simple nuggets that can help you get by with everything that you do, especially in an office environment.

I try to do my best to smile, I try to do my best to remember people’s names. Even just at the local store, if you see somebody’s name tag, just saying their name. Everybody loves hearing their name, right? So you can do that at work – makes people feel good. Going out of my way to give thanks and appreciation to people. We have an opportunity at our office where we can essentially do a shout out for somebody who’s done something really great at our office. And we get the opportunity to fill out this form, and they get an award for it.

I love being somebody that goes super detailed in that form, and then hoping one of my colleagues gets the award. And luckily, I’ve been a part of, I think, three awards that have been given out because of the responses that I’ve given, and I love that. I love being able to give thanks and appreciation for people that I work with and that work really hard. A lot of those principals that came from that book, I still apply in my everyday life.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome, thank you. And how about a favorite tool?

Andy Hill
Favorite tool. So, there’s a couple of them right now. I’m big into apps lately, so I like this one called Forest. It’s essentially a productivity app. So, I get a little bit cell phone crazy sometimes, where I’ll go on Twitter or Facebook or something like that. And if I really need to focus, I put on Forest, and it essentially gives you a timer on there. And if you say, “I need to focus for two hours”, you set the two-hour timer, and then the app will not let you do anything else on your phone. Essentially it’s growing a tree over those two hours. So if you decide to go outside of the app, then you kill the tree. So, don’t kill the tree. You’ve got to keep being productive and get your work done. So that’s helped me to sort of stay focused and not look at other things outside of work.

Some other things – I set some daily reminders in my Outlook. This is not really super techy, but I use Outlook like crazy. So, all the things that I need to do during the week, I set some daily reminders to get them done. So, those are dictating my day instead of email dictating my day, because sometimes you go super deep into email and then you don’t leave email hell until whatever, 7:00 pm, and you’re like, “I didn’t get any of the things that I was supposed to get done today.” So I use those Outlook reminders as sort of my reminder of what I need to do every single day.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite habit?

Andy Hill
Favorite habit. So, I guess I would say just generally effective time management. So, my colleagues and my superiors know that they can always rely on me, because I manage my time well. I think that I’ve gained their trust and their partnership because I can manage my time well. So I guess short and simple – time management.

Pete Mockaitis
And what are some of your practices in time management that make the difference?

Andy Hill
I would say getting a clear understanding of what I need to do each day in order to get it done right. So one practice that I’ve been doing that I actually got from Curt Steinhorst, who wrote the book Can I Have Your Attention? – he said at the beginning of each day, write down three things on a board or on a piece of paper that you have to get done today. Three things. It doesn’t sound like a lot, but with all of the distractions that we have at work – the pop-in meetings, somebody opening your door: “Hey, do you have a second”, or all the emails that come by – as long as you know, “I need to get these three important things done today, because people are relying on me” – that’s just one simple practice that I do daily that helps me have a complete day.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a particular nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks and gets them quoting it back to you?

Andy Hill
With the podcast, again, I end each show with the same “Carpe Diem”. And that is something that the listeners of the show and also some people in my life have enjoyed from me. So I guess that would be something that I share, because without action we’re not moving forward, right? Seize the day and take advantage of it.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Andy Hill
Check me out at MarriageKidsAndMoney.com. I’ve got a website there, as well as a podcast you can find on any major podcast player by the same name – Marriage, Kids and Money.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks who are seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Andy Hill
Well, I guess it would come from some of our conversations today, Pete. I would say if you for a fact know that you’re exceeding expectations, you can prove it and you feel like you deserve a raise or a promotion – go for it. Yes, definitely look up the comparable salary on Glassdoor.com, have some conversations with colleagues that are in a similar area, find that fair number that you feel you deserve, and outline your accomplishments. Sit down with your manager and discuss it, but do it with confidence, because if you feel like you deserve it and you’ve earned it, you should be able to do it with confidence and pride, because you deserve it.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Well, Andy, this has been a whole lot of fun. I wish you all the best, rock and rolling with experience marketing and all you’re up to!

Andy Hill
Thank you very much, Pete. This was a lot of fun.