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KF #14. Values Differences Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

717: How Logical and Sensitive Professionals Work Best Together with Devora Zack

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Devora Zack says: "Work with rather than fight against your own natural personality."

Devora Zack shares approaches to understand a key personality trait–in yourself and others–so thinkers and feelers can thrive together at work.

You’ll Learn:

  1. How to tell if you’re a cactus or a snowflake 
  2. The leadership style that harms motivation
  3. The platinum rule for giving feedback 

About Devora

Devora Zack is CEO of Only Connect Consulting, a Washington Post bestselling author, and a global keynote speaker with books in twenty languages. Her clients include Deloitte, the Smithsonian, Delta Airlines, the FDA, Johns Hopkins, and the National Institutes of Health. She has been featured by The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, US News & World Report, Forbes, Cosmopolitan, Self, Redbook, Fast Company, and many others.

She is the author of Managing for People Who Hate Managing, Singletasking and her upcoming book is called The Cactus and the Snowflake at Work: How the Logical and Sensitive Can Thrive Side by Side, releasing November 2021. 

Resources Mentioned

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Devora Zack Interview Transcript

Devora Zack
Thanks for having me back. It’s a pleasure to be with you again.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, boy. Well, I’m excited to dig into your work here, The Cactus and Snowflake at Work. I’ve done a number of Myers-Briggs workshops in my day, and so I’m digging what you’re talking about. Can you maybe share with us what’s sort of overall the big idea or main thesis here?

Devora Zack
The big idea of this book is that some people lead with their heads and some people lead with their hearts, and they can really get on each other’s nerves. However, with the right set of tools and understanding of different personality styles, we can be each other’s best friends instead of worst enemies.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well-said. And so, can you maybe share with us, for starters, something that was particularly surprising or counterintuitive that you discovered in putting together this work?

Devora Zack
I’ve actually been really interested in this dimension of personality for many, many years, and, as you know, I’ve written a couple books that feature introversion and extroversion, and those are better known in the general culture than thinkers and feelers, so I really was excited to come out with a book with a different focus about thinkers and feelers. However, since those terms aren’t as well known, we decided to give the more playful terminology and called them cactus and snowflakes.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, the cactus, being the thinker because they might be prickly or blunt, and the snowflake, the feeler, because they may have hurt feelings. Is that the premise here?

Devora Zack
I’ve identified three main distinctions between these two. The cactus, who leads with his head or her head, tends to be more logical, analytical, and direct. And the snowflake, who leads with his or her heart, tends to be more sensitive, empathetic, and diplomatic. One thing to keep in mind is that everyone has bits and pieces of both of them, so it’s not that there’s just two clear-cut types of personalities, but envision a continuum, a line where people are somewhere along the middle. A few people are at the far ends, but most of us can identify to a greater or lesser extent with both personality dichotomies.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. That totally resonates. And I guess I’m curious, if folks are in one camp and then the other, what might be some mistakes that they make, they don’t even know they’re making, like a straight up blind spot, like, “Oh, I had no idea that I have offended you in this way or overlooked this key thing”? What are some real watchouts that each type should look out for?

Devora Zack
Well, one watchout is to think that people are all basically the same. In fact, people are dramatically different from each other in terms of how we live in the world and how we experience the same situations and how we communicate. So, a mistake many of us make is that we tend to use what would motivate us to try and motivate others or to build rapport with us to use that on others when, in fact, often what would motivate you, if you’re a different personality style than me, is completely opposite of what I would be motivated by.

So, I introduced the big two in this book along with a bunch of other ideas and tips and techniques. The big two is to observe and ask to figure out what someone else’s preferences are, and then to calibrate your communication to meet others where they’re at.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, when we’re observing, what are some of the key things we should be on the lookout for, some telltale signs that are helpful?

Devora Zack
One is the types of words people emphasize, the language people use, and I have a whole translation section in the book. However, at the most basic level, cacti tend to use the word “think” more often, and snowflakes tend to use the word “feel” more often. And in our English language, they’re mostly interchangeable. You can say, “Well, what do you think about that podcast?” “Oh, I felt like it was really interesting and enlightening.”

So, just listening, at the very beginning of learning how to flex your style, that’s what I call meeting people where they’re at, is to just notice and observe who uses “think” and uses “feel” more often, and then to match that language whenever possible. If you’re, let’s say, presenting to a large group, you can assume there’s cacti and snowflakes within the room, and you want to practice integrating both types of language into your presentation so that you can connect with as many people as possible.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really an interesting point there in terms of just the language itself, there’s, “I think this,” “I feel that,” because a lot of times when people say, “I feel this,” it’s not actually an emotion that they’re identifying. It’s like, “I feel like we’ve been spending a lot of money lately.” It’s like that’s not an emotion. That is a thought and, yet, if someone who, a cactus, who prefers thinking would be more likely to say, “I think we’ve been spending a lot of money lately,” versus the snowflake who prefers feeling would be more likely to say, “I feel like we’re spending a lot of money lately.” And that’s really intriguing that we’re expressing the exact same thing and yet there’s a clue as to how we may be oriented in and working with the world around us.

Devora Zack
That’s right. And that’s the tip of the iceberg. We can also look at how people decorate their homes or offices, and you can do that even if you’re Zooming or working remotely. You can also calibrate how you envision or experience a situation against how others do.
Another important concept that I introduced in this book is what I call the non-event. And what that means is that something that could be a big deal to me, if I’m a snowflake, might be a complete non-event to you as a cactus. So, we may walk out of a meeting and I may think, “Wow! Everybody sure fell apart in that meeting. We’re going to have to start from scratch.” And you might respond by saying, “What are you talking about? It was totally productive. It was fine.”

And it’s easy to be judgmental to each other around that and think that each other is wrong, or insensitive, or too sensitive, when, in fact, what one person picks up on may be completely a non-event to the other person as if it didn’t even happen. Similarly, if a cactus and a snowflake are walking along together, and one of them maybe ignores the other one for a few minutes, then one person could be really offended, and the other one was thinking, “What are you talking about? We were just walking quietly.”

So, non-events are very big deal to look out for in the world to figure out if you and other people are on the same wavelength.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s interesting. Thank you. And so then, I’m curious, let’s say you got a clear sense, “Okay. Hey, I’m clearly a cactus,” or, “I’m clearly a snowflake,” and then, “I’m interacting with someone who has a differing preference,” what are your favorite tips in terms of how to do that effectively?

Devora Zack
Well, the first step, even before that, if we can just rewind it a tiny bit, is to get to know and understand your own personality style. So, the book actually has a self-assessment in it so you can figure out not only if you’re primarily a cactus or a snowflake but how strong your preference is. And then it’s to work with rather than fight against your own natural personality. So, that’s the first step, is getting acquainted with yourself and having a level of acceptance with yourself.

Then, we get to the next point, which is what you were getting at, which is, “How do we communicate with each other?” And we aren’t always going to get it right, particularly because we may not know what personality style people have when we first meet them. However, by listening carefully, that’s a very useful tool in finding out where someone is coming from, and asking general questions and letting the other person decide how specific to get in their responses. That helps us in building rapport and also communicating with people that we may or may not know where they’re coming from.

That presupposes also that we are open to understanding and working with different types of people. It’s easy to say, “Oh, if you’re the opposite personality style of me, that we’re just going to aggravate each other.” However, we can be each other’s greatest resources because, let’s say, if I’m cactus and I’m very logical and analytical, and I work with you, and you might be more of a snowflake, and you’re more empathetic, we can give each other tips and help each other out in areas that we’re not gifted in by filling in the blanks for each other.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, can you share some cool stories and examples that bring this to life?

Devora Zack
Sure. Here’s one and it is “do good” versus “feel good” leadership. So, a lot of people who read my books are interested in how they can work with other people, particularly if they’re managing other people. And what’s tempting, as a leader, is to be what I call a “feel good” leader to just make people feel good and to say, “Oh, that was great. Keep up the good work. I’m so proud of you. Keep at it,” but, in fact, it’s also very helpful, and that’s more of a snowflake tendency.

What the cacti is more likely to do is what I call “do good” leadership, which is to say, “Well, you can do better than that. I know that you can achieve higher aspirations than what you’re settling for, and I know you can try harder.” So, a snowflake might initially be really put off by the fact that someone is telling them that they can do better and it’s not good enough. However, what’s interesting is that when I work with different groups, the “do good” leadership style actually motivates people more and makes them feel better than the “feel good” leadership style, which just says to people, “Oh, you’re fine. You’re fine as it is,” and then they don’t achieve their potential.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now that’s quite an insight right there, and I think those who are practicing the “feel good” approach will probably have a better resistance to making a switch because one that could be rather uncomfortable. Yet, the prize is twofold there. That’s pretty awesome in terms of not only are you getting better results but people are feeling better, like, “Hey, I did great work and I’m improving and I’m making cool stuff in the world.” So, that’s powerful.

So, can you underscore that a little bit for the skeptic or the resistant snowflake? What’s some of the most compelling evidence that really confirms, “Yeah, this is absolutely true, so go for it even though it’s uncomfortable”?

Devora Zack
What I do, when I’m working with people and I’m trying to convince them that there’s a lot of benefit to “do good” leadership, is I ask them to reflect upon an important and meaningful coach that they’ve had in their life, and it can be an actual coach like from a team, or it could be a leader, or a family member, or somebody that inspired them, and to write down traits of that coach, and how the coach inspired that person.

And more often than not, the lists are full of things like, “Pushed me harder than I’d been pushed before,” “Didn’t take half an effort for…” “Didn’t accept half an effort.” And they’ve soon discovered that the people that have made the biggest positive impact in their life have often been people that pushed them further than they thought they could go, which is a trait of “do good” leadership.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it’s beautiful. As you say this, I’m thinking right now about a high school English teacher, Judy Federmeyer, and how I was kind of accustomed to getting great grades all the time fairly easily. And then I think with our first writing assignment with her, I got like a B or a B+, I thought, “What’s going on? I’m not accustomed to such things.” And it was kind of unsettling in the moment but, boy, it was so valuable in terms of it’s like, “Oh, I actually need to exert some effort,” in so doing, my writing got a lot better. And so, I am forever grateful to Mrs. Federmeyer.

Devora Zack
Pete, I loved that you gave that example because my best coach was also my high school English teacher, Mr. James Killian.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome.

Devora Zack
And my first essay that came back covered in red ink was quite a blow. However, the fact that I could write books now, I give him all the credit.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. That’s good. Certainly, and it does feel good in terms of the growth in the moment, and then the long-term abilities that you have. And then my fondness for her, as you share, to this day. So, that’s beautiful. Cool. Well, so tell us, any other transformational tidbits along those lines in terms of, “You might think this but, in fact, here’s this other thing that’s true that you might want to get on board with”?

Devora Zack
Sure thing. So, another idea I have in the book is what I call “nay.” And it stands for “not about you.” So, whether you’re a cactus or snowflake, when you’re put off by another person’s behavior or language or style, is to think, “It’s not about me.” N-A-Y, “Not about you. Not about you.” Because we often tend to take other people’s personalities personally when, in fact, they just have different personalities than us.

And the more we can accept, once again, as I mentioned before, that we’re really different from each other and stop trying to correct other people, particularly in our own minds, the more effective we’ll be. So, if I want to improve the world, the best thing I can do is focus on myself and focus on the three things that I can control, which are my thoughts, words, and actions. And that’s it. I can only control what I say, do, and experience in the world.

And to this end, I encourage people to mind their own business. So often, when you hear, “Mind your own business,” it’s considered something kind of rude or impolite. However, it can be inspirational, too, that I don’t have to live outside of my own business. I don’t have to worry about other people achieving their potential by meeting me where I’m at, instead I can just always say, “It’s my responsibility to meet others where they’re at regardless of what our relationship is like, or if I report to them, or if they’re more senior than I am.” It’s to always just say, “I’m going to focus on my own thoughts, words, and actions and take responsibility for how I engage with others.”

Pete Mockaitis
I really like that “Not about you,” and sometimes it’s not about you even if they’re talking about you in certain occasions in terms of like just the mood, right? If folks are, I want to say, sometimes it’s lashing out. Or, if you’re in a mood, it can sort of color everything in terms of how you are communicating with other people and/or if you’re the cactus and have a certain bluntness, then it can be super helpful to remember, in the snowflake position, “Oh, I’m not horrible at my job. This person doesn’t hate me. It’s not about you at all. It’s just how they express it.” That’s lovely.

Could you give us some more cool examples of collaboration then when it comes to how we might complement each other’s temperaments extra nicely?

Devora Zack
Sure. So, let’s say, for example, I’m a cactus and I believe that this touchy-feely stuff can make a difference in building rapport, but I’m not really gifted at it, and so I think, “Well, my team is better off without us attempting to have this motivation of rapport. Our team is better off without having these touch-feely interactions.” Instead, what I can do is identify someone who I work with who seems to have a snowflake quality, and ask them to take the lead on maybe some get-to-know-you activities or building connections among team members.

And so, finding out who’s good at what, and you don’t have to always be the smart one in the room, or the one who’s leading, and instead finding people who match certain objectives you have and letting them take the reins. So, it takes a little bit of humility to do that. And, in the end, you’ll be having a more productive team because you’ll have all different perspectives introduced from the cactus and the snowflake perspective.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s good. And I think it can go vice versa in terms of I’m thinking about days where we interviewed a bunch of candidates, and then we made our decisions, and then we needed to call all of them and the vast majority were told, “No, you will not be moving forward in this interview process,” which I have a lot of snowflake tendencies myself, it’s like, “Oh, I don’t know. Oh, I really, really don’t want to do that, killing dreams, after dream after dream on the phone.” And then someone else on the team is like, “Oh, that’s fine. I don’t mind. Just like no problems.” So, it’s intriguing how it can take just way more or way less sort of emotional energy, depending on the nature of the task and the nature of their temperament.

Devora Zack
That’s right. And when you’re working with someone more long term, and let’s say you need or want or don’t want to but have to give someone feedback, it’s easy to give feedback in the way that you like to hear it as opposed to what resonates with the other person. So, that’s why I don’t totally believe in the golden rule, which is treat others how you want to be treated. I use the platinum rule instead, which is treat others how they want to be treated.

So, if I am a snowflake and I like to get feedback in the following way, like, “Oh, Devora, it’s so nice to see you. You look really nice today and we all really appreciate your input,” and then that might ease the blow of things I need to fix, or work on, or improve upon, or things I might not be aware of that are not in my realm of consciousness.

On the other hand, someone who’s a strong cactus, if I started giving feedback to that person in the same way, it would really get on their nerves and make them feel like it was just fluff and I was beating around the bush and so on. So, they might much prefer, and in my experience, this is true, feedback that’s very direct, like, “I want to give you feedback on three behaviors that I think we can switch and improve so that you can be more effective when working with the board of directors.” And that can actually make their eyes light up, like, “Oh, great. Thanks for the feedback.”

And I’ve seen this play out in real-life situations again and again, that flexing our style, in other words, giving feedback or communicating with someone in a way that works for them is way more effective than giving feedback in a way that works for you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s nice. So, the platinum rule is a nice example of a best practice that sort of cuts across here in terms of regardless of whether you are a cactus or a snowflake, or the person you’re communicating with is a cactus or a snowflake, that notion of thinking about their style in a manner that works with their style works well. Are there any other “universal” best practices that kind of, “Hey, regardless of who you are and your preferences and temperament, and the person you’re interacting with,” some things that tend to work well across the temperaments?

Devora Zack
Yes, another concept that I introduced in the book is what I call “beans up the nose.” And its roots come from, perhaps you might recall in first grade or so, if a teacher might do an art project with dried beans and Elmer’s Glue and paper, and what you would do is glue the beans to the paper in artful designs, and that was your project. Does this ring a bell? Did you ever do that as a kid?

So, the worst thing the teacher can say, as the students start working away with their projects, is, “Now, class, whatever you do, don’t put beans up your nose.” And, sure enough, beans start flying up noses, and the school nurse has to come running in and help out. So, I’m using that as a metaphor, we put beans up people’s noses all the time, and whether we’re snowflakes or cacti, we just have different tendencies in how we do it.

So, what I caution people about is be careful what you say because you might be putting beans up someone else’s nose. So, always pause before you speak, and think, “Is this putting beans up the nose?” And I have to say, I do it myself, and it’s amazing how often I almost suggest to people to put beans up their nose in terms of, “Oh, I’m really not good at speaking off the cuff so I’m probably going to mess up this Q&A at the end of the speech.”

Or, if someone says, “I’m really very sensitive as a snowflake, so I might start crying in the middle of the performance feedback.” In other words, making people think about things that they didn’t have in their mind beforehand. And this happens in interviews a lot, and it happens when people are working with opposite types a lot, so just be careful about putting beans up people’s noses.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that connects in terms of some folks talking about certain kind of rules or guidelines or principles, and it’s like, “That wouldn’t have even occurred to me to do this thing that I’m not supposed to do.”

Well, Devora, tell me, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Devora Zack
Well, to know that everyone has times when they are their own opposite, and sometimes that can be by design because they want to be effective and so they’re using tools that come from the other side of the spectrum, which is fine. And other times it can be because we’re in a difficult spot and we kind of go into our own shadow state, which is based on some of Carl Jung’s concepts.

So, sometimes we short-circuit and become our own opposites. So, I might, for example, if I’m a sensitive snowflake, suddenly start being very insensitive to people around me, or if I’m a cactus who’s very straightforward, and I might start beating around the bush and not tell people really what I’m thinking. So, it’s to be understanding of ourselves and to be able to recognize when we’re in a shadow state, and that’ll help us get out of it.

And, also, if you have worked with someone, or live with someone, or know someone pretty well, and they start acting like their own opposite, to know that they might be short-circuiting also, and to respond in a way that’s supportive as oppose to amplifying the issues that someone is dealing with.

Pete Mockaitis
When you say short-circuited, I’m curious, what are some things that sort of trigger you to go opposite or shadow state?

Devora Zack
So, sometimes it’s unanticipated change, sometimes it’s when you’re sleep-deprived, or mentally or physically drained, sometimes it’s when you feel misunderstood or when you are unclear about what direction you want to head in. So, when you’re in challenging situations is when you’re most likely to go into a shadow state, and I call that being in the grip. Like, in the grip of your own personality short-circuiting.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And so then, those are sort of stressors. And then, ideally, someone will be supportive and encouraging when we’re in that place. And if we’re only kind of working on ourselves without that support, any pro tips in terms of kind of getting back to center?

Devora Zack
Yeah, and it actually a similar tip to people trying to be supportive also. A lot of times, people try and be supportive by saying, “You shouldn’t be upset,” or, “It’s not a big deal,” downplaying it either in your mind if you’re taking care of yourself or to someone else if you’re attempting to make them feel better by letting them know that they’re overreacting, and that completely backfires.

So, instead, is validating yourself and others when they’re in a shadow state, and to not say, “You shouldn’t feel this way,” but to say, “I can see that you’re really upset.” Or, if it’s just you dealing with something inside your own head, is saying, “It’s valid for me to be upset,” as opposed to saying, “There’s something wrong with me,” and then you get more upset about the fact that you’re upset.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great. Thank you. All right. Well, now, can we hear a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Devora Zack
Sure. So, this is a Henry Miller quote, he’s an author. And I love it so much that it’s taped to my computer when I’m writing a book, “Don’t be nervous. Work calmly, joyously, recklessly whatever is in hand.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And how about a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Devora Zack
Well, I really just love following any up-and-coming neuroscience because I find it really fascinating to see how our brains work according to scientists, and how that plays into organizational behavior, and supports a lot of stuff that people in my field in general management have been professing for a long time, but then finding out what is happening with our neurotransmitter signals in our brain, to me, it’s just fascinating.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite book?

Devora Zack
My favorite book has always been The Phantom Tollbooth since I was about 11 years old, and I just think it’s the greatest book I’ve read in a million times.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Devora Zack
I actually have a brand-new favorite tool, I’m so excited. It’s a 1960 typewriter that still works. And to be able to do writing on a real typewriter is very exciting, and it’s called The Torpedo, which I think is kind of cool. But really, it gets a whole different part of the brain going when I write on it.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s intriguing. What part of the brain? How would you articulate the difference?

Devora Zack
Well, you can’t backpedal like you can when you’re typing on a computer. And so, you have to just move forward and do a pure stream of consciousness writing without rearranging things or deleting things. And what you come up with then is very visceral and often more raw than what happens when you’re writing on a computer, and a lot of great insights come of it.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. And a favorite habit?

Devora Zack
Journaling every morning.

Pete Mockaitis
And a key nugget you share that really seems to resonate and connect with people; they quote it back to you often?

Devora Zack
Be true to yourself. Work with rather fighting against your true personality.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Devora Zack
My company website MyOnlyConnect.com, and currently, there’s also a link to it for CactusSnowflake.com.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Devora Zack
Everyone is exactly how they’re supposed to be. Nobody needs to be fixed.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Devora, this has been a treat. Thank you. And I wish you many happy collaborations.

Devora Zack
Thank you. With this being one of them.
Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you.

274: Enhancing Collaborations by Improving Civility with Chris Edmonds

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Chris Edmonds says: "Create an environment in your team... where people can speak up."

Chris Edmonds returns to talk about crafting a culture of civility in the workplace.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Troubling research pointing to incivility on the rise
  2. The 3 Ds that destroy civility
  3. A reframe on blame

About Chris

Chris Edmonds is a sought-after speaker, author, and executive consultant who is the founder and CEO of The Purposeful Culture Group. After a 15-year executive career leading high performing teams, Chris began his consulting company in 1990. He has also served as a senior consultant with The Ken Blanchard Companies since 1995. Chris is one of Inc. Magazine’s 100 Great Leadership Speakers and was a featured presenter at SXSW 2015.

Chris is the author of the The Culture Engine, the best seller Leading At A Higher Level with Ken Blanchard, and five other books. Chris’ blog, podcasts, research, and videos can be found at Driving Results Through Culture. Thousands of followers enjoy his daily quotes on organizational culture, servant leadership, and workplace inspiration on Twitter at @scedmonds. Visit his website at www.drivingresultsthroughculture.com.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Chris Edmonds Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Chris, thanks so much for joining us again on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Chris Edmonds

Pete, I am excited to be here. Appreciate the opportunity.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, I’m excited too. So we chatted way back when in Episode 149.

Chris Edmonds

Wow. Almost a year ago.

Pete Mockaitis

It’s wild, but the time flies. And you’re still making great ideas out in the world, so it is fitting that we chat again.

Chris Edmonds

Well, I thank you for that. And I certainly have found that my focus is upon culture and leadership, and we still have culture and leadership problems all around the globe. So I have job security.

Pete Mockaitis

It’s true, it’s true. Well, I was also intrigued by… You have another – I don’t know if you’d call it a job, an avocation – you’re a published songwriter and performer. What’s the story about this here?

Chris Edmonds

It’s true, it’s true. I was convinced… Okay, this is going to go back probably before the year of your birth. So I started playing guitar when I was 12 – that was 1964. Yes, it was The Beatles that inspired that. And by the time I hit college in 1970, I was convinced that I didn’t need a college degree; I was going to go to Hollywood and get work immediately. So, that did not play out, but I did lose almost a full year of college courses, which there was some pain having to recover from that.
But what I realized is that I’ve been a working musician forever in LA and in San Francisco and in Austin, which is a very, very cool music town even today. And we’ve been here in Denver for 12 years, and I started with a band and it wasn’t the perfect match from a values standpoint. What a surprise that that would be one of my biases. And joined a team in late ‘06 that I’m still a part of, and they’re twisted, they’re immensely talented, great songwriters, great performers.
And so we’ve been playing together for 11-12 years and have evolved from a country thing to a country-rock thing to a classic rock thing, to now I’m learning Gaga and Pink, because the market is… They want variety. And so we do mostly corporate stuff and weddings and stuff. We do some festivals, we do a few clubs here and there. But I actually got official songwritership from ASCAP for some of the music I wrote back in the early ‘70s. Because once you perform it and someone pays you for that, you are an official professional songwriter. So, I haven’t written anything in the last 10 years; most of my writing goes around the culture and leadership thing. But I have a studio 20 feet away that has 20 guitars hanging in humidified cabinets. It’s a problem.

Pete Mockaitis

Twenty?

Chris Edmonds

It’s a problem. I’ve cut back. And years ago my wife would just kind of… We’re celebrating 39 years of wedded bliss next month, so there’s another podcast story potentially. But I said, “I found a guitar, I want to buy a guitar.” She said, “Fine, which one are you going to sell?” Rats! So, she’s pretty smart, she’s pretty smart.

Pete Mockaitis

So, just like at work when they make a request, if you say, “Okay, sure thing. Which of these things on my plate should go?”

Chris Edmonds

“Which of these projects would you like me to let go of?” But I hated, hated selling guitars, but I’ve actually been pretty good. And I’ve got some banjos and I’ve got some mandolins and I’ve got a base, and I make reasonable music on most of them.

Pete Mockaitis

Cool. Alright, so the main topic of today is not so much your musical career, although that’s intriguing; or your guitar collection, but you caught my eye with your take on civility, which I think is an important issue. And I want to hear why it’s important to you.

Chris Edmonds

Well, it’s so interesting because my bias has been, let me help leaders A) be aware of the quality of their culture, and let’s craft a proven template of sorts, a system of sorts, that will allow leaders to be more intentional about the way people treat each other. But boy, what an interesting year we’ve had with the “me too” approach and the dynamic that it has caused with women who’ve been badly treated for, oh, let’s call it centuries, by men in power – being able to stand up and say, “Not anymore, never again.”
And so, what really struck me is Weber Shandwick is a firm – yes, at WeberShandwick.com – and they’ve done the state of civility surveys research for the last 6-7 years or so. And so at about the time of the “me too”, let’s call it tidal wave, Weber Shandwick came out with this wonderful, completely depressing data about how basically 69% of people surveyed – that’s workplace plus it’s community, so it’s neighborhoods – 69% said that there’s a problem with civility today in America. And in 2010 it was about 65%, it dropped to about 63% in ’12 and in 2013, but it’s a problem.
And 75% believe that incivility in America has risen to crisis levels. That’s not a, “Oh, this is something someone ought to look at.” This is a significant red flag. And so, I just believe that if we allow the incivility to continue, these numbers aren’t going to get better. They’re going to get worse. And I’m convinced that with as much time as people spend in their workplaces or doing work if they’re remote workers, which of course is growing – the degree of them being treated with trust and respect is not offsetting the degree to which they’re being treated incivility-wise.
So I’m convinced that this is something that leaders need to not just be aware of, but grab the bull by the horns and look at the quality of relationships in their workplaces. And if we can start there we might actually make some headway in the next year or two.

Pete Mockaitis

Chris, it’s interesting – this is a very serious topic and yet I can’t help but chuckle as I imagine all the uncivil things I might say to you as a joke.

Chris Edmonds

But we could there very quickly, which of course the twisted mind of mine is, I laugh. But then it’s, “No, no, no, no, no. We can’t say that on the air. That’s not good.”

Pete Mockaitis

Right, so keep the iTunes clean right in here. So, maybe let’s get clear with definitions a bit. When you talk about “civility”, how would you roughly define that, and what is the opposite of civility?

Chris Edmonds

It’s interesting – I’ve learned over the years, and blessed with Ken Blanchard’s friendship and mentorship. And Ken Blanchard taught us the power of simple stories and simple ideas. And he of course with The One Minute Manager way back in 1978 taught us that there were three secrets. So one of the things that I’ve learned from Ken is there are three things that we can remember as humans.
So, one of the things that has been very, very consistent – and I’ve been doing research around, again, the quality of workplace cultures for 25 years – and so my 3 Ds are perfect descriptions of the absence of civility. And they are Dismissing, Discounting, Demeaning. So, if we think of the workplace experiences that we’ve had over our careers, those three come up very, very quickly, and we can see different faces popping up on the little movie screen inside of our foreheads.
And it can be driven by power, it can be driven by politics, it can be driven by flat-out angry people that have really no business supervising anyone, including themselves. But the idea of dismissing others’ ideas, dismissing others’ efforts, dismissing others’ accomplishments – there’s no good in the relationship that’s going to come of that. There is going to be a logical erosion of trust, respect and dignity – what a surprise.
And my three Ps of course are around the culture side, which is Purposeful, Positive, Productive. And none of those three Ps are going to be able to gain traction and be sustained if you have any of those Dismissive, Demeaning, Discounting behaviors happen. And the reality is that as we look at our workplaces and we look at the kind of behavior that often gets recognized, gets rewarded, gets people increasing responsibilities and all of a sudden, “You’re a great sales person”, meaning you’re aggressive, assertive, you’re the most bold with getting customers to give in to your demands for buying X or Y or Z, then you might then become a team leader, in which case because you were a terrific – by the way, maybe a bit mean – individual contributor, then naturally we’re going to put a team under your control.
And if there’s not really a sensitivity that, “Managing a team is different than managing myself”, the 3 Ds is not going to get us anywhere; the 3 Ps will get us somewhere. So, you’ve heard me use a couple of three different languages – the 3 Ds, which are going to erode the trust, respect, dignity. There’s the trust, respect, dignity statement alone which is pretty important. And then it’s the Purposeful, Positive, Productive team culture, division culture, work culture. So, anything that happens that is in those 3 Ds is going to fit right into the incivility side.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I’d love to get your take… I have a feeling that listeners and myself included would say “I don’t dismiss, I don’t discount, I don’t demean.” Can you share what are some maybe subtle or overlooked ways that we can be guilty of doing this stuff?

Chris Edmonds

It’s so interesting, and it happens often in one-on-one kinds of scenarios. We have a lot of organizations, especially in the US and in Europe are doing a lot more project-driven work environment. So in other words I might be in a team of – and I’ll use a classic one – of sales people, but we’re working on a big project, which means I’m working with technical folks and folks that do manufacturing for example, or they are delivering services out in the field around the globe or what not.
So my project team may not be a team that is a, quote, “intact” team; it might change from project to project. And what can happen in that dynamic is there is often – again this is very Western – it’s about showing up others. So if I can withhold information from you, then I look like I know more than you do, I’m smarter than you are, I’m more valuable than you are, and yet what I’m doing is I’m eroding the team’s ability to get their work done and to wow that customer consistently. So I can be very indirect by withholding information that you have asked me for that I’m supposed to give you, but I can be very, very, very subtle in that way.
The ideas that often get generated in a project team, and most project teams are not calm and cool, they’re “hair on fire”, right? They’re moving pretty fast, and often deadlines are increasing and we may not be delivering exactly according to plan, which increases everyone’s heartbeats and what not, so the pressure goes up. It can again help me as a player on that team – maybe not a leader on the team, as a player on the team – to say, “Weren’t you supposed to have that done last week? I still am waiting for X.” That’s discounting, that is the dismissing.
Someone comes up with an idea: “I know we can fix this if we just all stop and do X right now.” And if you and three others in the room go, “That’ll never work. We’ve tried that before” – there’s the dismissing thing. The idea of winning… It’s so interesting as I look at organizations, and as metaphors we use sports a lot, and of course it’s a very American thing, I get it. It certainly happens in Europe, but the sports things is about winning too. It’s not about a great locker room and a great team and we all sacrifice to win. It’s about me beating you, us beating your team. So those subtle things are all about keeping score and about me looking better than you, including me making you look bad. So that’s one avenue.
Another avenue, and I remember a culture client that was a delight, because they made such great progress. But what I typically do when I go into a client who’s saying, “We think our culture’s bad / broken, and we don’t know what to do” Leaders are really not asked to manage the quality of their culture, so when they discover that the culture is bad or broken, they may not know exactly what to do. So they may do nothing – that’s not helpful. They may try something which could be helpful. They may bring a consultant like me in, which could be helpful – hopefully helpful.
So this particular client I did probably 24-25 phone interviews – part of my discovery – to learn what are the norms in this culture, what are the things that get valued and validated, what are the things that get quashed or discounted in some way. And what I learned was that the executive team – there were five members of that executive team – teased each other and their direct reports mercilessly. I mean from the moment they hit the door they’d been thinking of cutting remarks they could use, quote, with their “buddies”.
They really did like each other and they really did trust each other, but what the interviews helped me realize is that those comments – hilarious, creative as they may be – erode trust, respect and dignity. And people basically said the teasing is so bad that, “I can’t simply show up without my armor on.” And my armor on might be, I’m on edge, or I’m thinking to myself of what’s the comeback I’m going to make to Lee when he comes by, or whatever it is. It creates an energy-sucking and heart-sucking kind of dynamic. And these guys were shocked; they said, “No one’s ever told us that the teasing is bad.” And they all of sudden kind of got… I said, “No one?” And they said, “Well, we’ve had a little bit of feedback, but we dismissed it.” There’s one of my Ds.
So, it’s interesting the bold dismissive things, the “You’re an idiot, you shouldn’t be in charge of this project, you always fall apart when the pressure…” – those kinds of messages are not teasing; they are very, very bold and demeaning and eroding people’s confidence. And again, it’s the “I win, you lose” kind of a dynamic. It’s the subtler things that leaders may not be aware that are, “Oh, he’s only teasing”, right? Well, sure, but if through that teasing you are reducing trust and respect, you’re reducing the likelihood of people proactively solving problems for their customers and for the company – that’s really stupid. That’s not just dumb; that is full on stupid.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, that’s a great example there with regard to the teasing. I’d love a few more, maybe even some non-verbal things. I didn’t even say a word, but I am indirectly or unintentionally being dismissive, discounting, demeaning.

Chris Edmonds

Absolutely. Let’s see how many eyes have rolled across tables in yours and my careers over the years. So there’s the heavy sighs… Again, some of us can go to our own families, and my mother was a pro at the non-verbal dismissive stuff; my poor father. Mom’s 96 years old, still here. She’s actually turned very kind, which is just a shock to most of us, but… I’ll go visit her next month, which is kind of cool.
But the body language conversation, and it’s about the slumping in the chair and it’s the holding one’s hand in your hands and shaking your heads while someone’s explaining their idea or their solution, or “Here’s what I tried to do and it didn’t quite work” – all of the those things, everybody notices. And especially if you’re in a leadership position and you begin to either, again, verbally discount and demean, verbally dismiss people’s efforts and ideas – everybody else is watching.
And so there’s this interesting dynamic of, “I don’t want the eye roll. If they get the eye roll, then I could be winning, because I’m not being judged at this point by the boss or what not.” And it’s so interesting to think back to some of my – they weren’t “worst” bosses, but they were really, really challenging bosses. And one I remember I worked for him for a couple of years, and I remember him being incredibly talented at the full body dismissiveness, and it was classic, it was just wonderful. It was the heavy sigh, and it was the shaking of the head, and it was the getting up and pacing while someone is…
Those are not subtle; those are very, very bold. And his intent was to express disappointment that we weren’t doing the right things, that the problem wasn’t solved, that the customer wasn’t satisfied, etcetera. But his anger was so powerful in the room. And the thing that was very interesting – as you posed that question I got this guy’s image clearly pacing in one of our conference rooms. And I remember when I left that job, that he wrote me a very kind card that said, “Appreciate all you’ve done. You’ve really advanced our programs, and your customers love you” and yadda, yadda yadda. And I completely dismissed it, because it was the first time in two years I’d ever heard an encouraging word from him. So you think about my expectations day-to-day around him – it was, “I hope he is mad at somebody else today”, as opposed to, “We’re all going to rock it and he’s going to love us.”
And then I go to my best bosses – Jerry Nutter, who’s is the best boss that I celebrated in my book The Culture Engine. And he had Nutterisms, he would say, which we of course – his team… I’m still connected to these folks that I worked with under Jerry; 30 years later we’re still connected, we still remember Nutterisms and kind of share them a little bit.
But Jerry’s view was, “You guys are brilliant, you’re closer to this than I am. I’m kind of over here doing more strategic things; you guys manage the tactics and if you need something from me, then let me know.” And he was great in front of a big team, he was great in front of our volunteers. But what I remember, what all of us remember was, when we did something wrong, when we fell short, Jerry never demeaned, discounted us, never dismissed us; but he engaged us in conversations. It was almost worse. It’s easy to discount someone who’s going to go, “Oh, you’re an idiot. You just screwed it up again.” It was like, “Yeah, whatever.” I’m going to go off and do my own thing, because I’m not going to get anything of validation from this boss, or from these peers.
But Jerry was so driven to want us to make new mistakes every day, not the same ones. It was totally cool, it was totally cool. And so we often… And again, I’ve had this conversation with Sue and with Anne – part of this team that worked for Jerry for quite a while – we would go into that meeting with a full plan of what we should’ve done different, and what we’ll do next time.
If I was dealing with Skip – the other boss – I wanted out of the room as quickly as possible. I didn’t want to engage, because even if I came up with an idea, I knew it wasn’t going to be good enough. And so, there’s this deflation that happens and it’s like, “I’m going to go get beaten up again.” And again, I think all of these bosses are attempting to find the magic; they’re trying to craft a way to motivate people, a way to inspire production. And mostly it was all production.
What was great about Jerry was that… And again, some other great bosses that I’ve had and been blessed with – is it wasn’t just about production; it was about production, but it was also about learning, and it was about growth, and it was about opportunity, and it was about, “What can we do different? How do we wow these folks next time, because we’re going to do this cool program in three months again? How are we going to completely wow them, because now we’ve kind of wowed them again? What are we going to do?”
And it was this constant feeling like I can come up with ideas. They may be stupid; I’m not sure they’re stupid or not. But we had an environment with Jerry that no idea was stupid. It might be less brilliant than others will come up with, but the ideas of, “How do we make this better? How we do this different?” moves you away from maintaining a system to actually creating new experiences and better loyalty from customers, and even more important – and you can hear it in my voice – better loyalty from the employees, because we felt valued, we felt validated.
When we screwed up it was mostly kind of laughter and, “Gee, that didn’t turn out like I thought.” But if you think of the productivity, which is often the sole output that is driven by lousy bosses and okay bosses. Great bosses are typically interested in growth and maintaining a good relationship and in essence being kind, but also being kind of the “tough love” thing – being truthful about, “Here’s our target, here’s what happened, where we felt short. What are we going to do?” But it’s much, much my experience – and Pete, I know yours is too – it’s much, much more likely that we’re going to drive harder and move the organization forward faster if we feel trusted and respected and treated with dignity, than not.

Pete Mockaitis

Absolutely, yes. And I want to kind of touch upon that point when you said you knew you screwed up and you were going in for the conversation, and it wasn’t demeaning. What were some of the questions posed to you, or how did that conversation unfold?

Chris Edmonds

Well, it’s so interesting because I think back to… And let’s use the Skip and Jerry comparison, because the classic lousy bosses and a great boss. And Skip was always interested in blame, and it rolled off his tongue very, very quickly. And so, if I was going in as an individual contributor that had fallen short, I knew I was going to get blamed. And maybe this is going to give you some insights into the way my mind works – it’s like, “What creative ways is he going to blame me today?” I was really kind of intrigued with that. “Where is he going to go with this?”
But it wasn’t that I was interested in learning from him; I wasn’t feeling like I was going to leave inspired. It was, I was going to be blamed. And I didn’t want to be blamed; I wanted somebody else to be blamed, which is again, not a team-building thing; it’s a team-eroding thing.
And so, the questions that Jerry asked were about, “Tell me what you’re thinking now. I know what your plan was, we went through the plan. If there was one or two things that you wish you would’ve done different now, knowing what we know now, which we didn’t know before, what are they?” So it’s the solution thing. What are we going to do different next time? He would say all the time, “How do we make new mistakes?” I remember him asking me once, “Did we make all new mistakes on this thing, or did we make some old ones?” And I said, “Well, I think we made a couple of old ones.” “Well, tell me more about that.”
And so it wasn’t a power conversation, it wasn’t him better than me, him dismissing me, demeaning me, discounting me. It was, what’s out there that we can learn from? How do we share this with the rest of the team? So again, we make new mistakes, we do different things. What are people going to be asking for next, because we’re going to have to deliver it? How do we inspire a much, much better experience?
And again, I was a non-profit executive – I was a YMCA executive for 15 years, and it’s like, how do we create those environments without spending a lot of money, and wowing these folks and wanting them to increase their loyalty and increase their feeling like we’re helping their kids, we’re helping them with validating, character-building kinds of programs. And again, yes, what I’m saying is, in this environment, Christian-based, Christian values-based, pretty classic non-profit organization with a crystal clear purpose about serving others and building character, and yet I had some of the worst bosses I ever experienced, in that organization. And I had some of my best bosses in that same organization.
And I went into the, boy, corporate finance. How’s that for moving from an environment of a non-profit into the opposite? And I found – not surprisingly – bosses that came at this thing from fear and didn’t want their people to make mistakes, and were demeaning, dismissive and discounting. And in the same environment I had absolutely great bosses. In that scenario I was a coach, I was an internal consultant. And so, I saw the same behaviors.
So, there could be some humanness to this, but the idea to get to… Hopefully I answered your question around what did Jerry ask, what did your best boss do to kind of inspire learning and resolution to whatever we screwed up. And I think both bosses were interested in the same thing, but one was about creative solutions and validating what we tried, and the other was about blame.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay, very good. Thank you. Well, tell me, Chris – anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and talk about some of your favorite things?

Chris Edmonds

Well, I really hope that there’s something to be said for… And the “me too” movement continues to gain some powerful advocates, and I’m hopeful that we can craft more civil, validating experiences for anyone who’s ever experienced that kind of harassment. But what I want leaders to do, and you said it earlier, that, “I don’t do anything dismissive. I don’t do anything that could be remotely seen as harassment.” And I think, “You know, there’s some of my teasing that I probably did.”
So, it’s the idea that as leaders you need to be aware of how people feel, and whether or not they’re feeling trusted, respected in every interaction. And I think you will be shocked and surprised to find that for the most part incivility is very, very common. We could look at the bullying influence, which is unfortunately classically American. But there are great leaders doing great things in organizations and not letting people mistreat others. And we spend, again, so many hours in the workplace, that’s something that I’m very, very hopeful about. So, I’m going to keep pushing, and I appreciate you giving me a forum to kind of preach to the choir.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good, thank you. Certainly. So now, we did it last time, but I’d love to see if maybe anything’s new and evolved. Could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Chris Edmonds

Oh boy, where I’ve really gone, and it’s certainly been shaded by some of these conversations around civility, is I go back to Nike’s “Just do it” mantra. And I’m kind of like, “No, if we do it and we’re mean and nasty and ugly – yes, we might win but others may not.” How about, “Just do it nicely?” So, can we evolve to actually being civil, and maybe even the next layer of that is being nice to each other? That’s my bias right now.

Pete Mockaitis

Alright. And how about a favorite book?

Chris Edmonds

I just finished Shawn Murphy’s The Optimistic Workplace. Shawn’s a longtime friend, and I was pleased to help him with his launch a couple of years ago. And I was sad to say that I didn’t read the whole book. So, read the whole book and I just love it. And I think, again, what an interesting title, looking at how do we create workplaces where people want to go to work, where they want to contribute, where they want to be creative, where there is a natural optimism that we’re actually – God forbid – improving the lives of our community members and our employees and our customers. That’s a high, high target. And I want to give a shout out to Shawn – he’s just gotten a contract for his next book, which is going to be about belonging, which I’m very excited to hear about. So, couple of shout outs to Shawn Murphy there.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay, thank you. And how about a favorite habit, a personal practice of yours that’s handy?

Chris Edmonds

I just had a wonderful opportunity last week at a learning session. I was qualified in an assessment that is about leadership impact. It was really, really cool; but a whole bunch of consultants in a room at one time, which can be kind of dangerous. And what was really, really interesting was going out to dinner with all these folks. Again, I travel a lot; most of the time it’s a very, very solitary life. And for the last seven years or so I’ve been on Tim Ferriss’ low carb diet and it’s worked very well for me.
So, we go into these beautiful restaurants and I’m like, “How’s that prepared. Can I have it grilled and not fried? No starches, no potatoes, don’t even bring me the breads.” And people would look at me and it’s like… We did this three nights in a row. And they’re like finally on the third night, “You’re really serious about this”, and I said, “It’s something that if I don’t feel my best physical self, then how can I do well?” I just turned 66 and I’m out traveling all the time; it’s exhausting to travel. So my habit continues to be to be disciplined in how I fuel my best self, and it’s working still pretty well.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, great. And do you have a preferred means of folks contacting you or reaching out if they want to learn more about your stuff here?

Chris Edmonds

Absolutely. I’d send them to my absolutely wonderfully, recently redesigned website, which is at DrivingResultsThroughCulture.com. I know it’s a handful, but I’ve got my books available there, I’m in the midst of Year 2 of culture, leadership charge videos – little 3-minute videos on how leaders can be more effective in managing their team culture. So, that’s probably the best place – DrivingResultsThroughCulture.com.

Pete Mockaitis

Alright. And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Chris Edmonds

Absolutely. So, one of the things that is critical – and again, we can take it from the “me too” and people speaking up – create an environment in your team. And you don’t have to change the whole company, but in your team, where people can speak up, where people can say, “We’re not working together well. We’re mistreating each other, the teasing has gone too far”, so you can start to address what could be harmless intentions. That may not always be the case, but to in essence reduce those things that erode trust and respect in the workplace. Let people speak up. It can be hard conversations, but to continue on a path of dismissing and demeaning folks, isn’t going to serve you well.

Pete Mockaitis

Alright. Well, there you have it. Chris, thank you so much for chatting again, this was a lot of fun. And I wish you and your company and your book all sorts of success and luck in the months to come here.

Chris Edmonds

I so appreciate it, Pete. Again, thanks for the opportunity, always enjoy speaking with you.

145: Encouraging Innovation through Conflict with Jeff DeGraff

By | Podcasts | One Comment

 

Jeff DeGraff says: "The people who love all the stuff you do are probably not very helpful."

Professor Jeff DeGraff shows how to stir up some constructive conflict to encourage innovative thinking in the workplace.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The extraordinary value of arguing
  2. Who are the four types of people at the workplace and what creative tensions emerge among them
  3. Effective ways to create constructive conflict at work

About Jeff

Jeff DeGraff is called the Dean of Innovation because of his influence on the field. Dr. DeGraff is a professor at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan. He has advised hundreds of the world’s most prominent firms. He has founded a leading innovation institute, Innovatrium, with labs in Ann Arbor and Atlanta. Jeff’s thoughts on innovation are covered by Fortune, Wired and the Harvard Business Review to name a few. Jeff writes a column for Inc. magazine and has a regular segment on public radio called The Next Idea. He is the author of several books.

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