Pete Mockaitis
Margie, welcome!

Margie Warrell
Great to be with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m super excited to hear your perspectives on courage. And I want to start by hearing, what’s one of the most surprising and fascinating and counterintuitive discoveries you’ve made about courage in your career and researching this matter?

Margie Warrell
Ah, it’s probably that courage is not always about stepping bravely forward, putting yourself out there, saying a big yes and climbing out onto the far limb. Sometimes courage is saying no, sitting still, doing nothing, and reconnecting, disconnecting, pressing pause on all the doing and the bold acts of bravery, and just reconnecting with who we’re being, and being still and being unproductive. That is, sometimes, even more challenging and requires even more courage than being busily in action.

Pete Mockaitis
Intriguing. Could you share with us a story that illustrates that?

Margie Warrell
Well, look, I’ll share from my own life. So, I am someone who has a bias for action. I am someone who tends to be an Energizer bunny, sort of productive, productive, doing, doing, doing, doing. That’s almost my comfort zone is to be out there, furiously working hard, and doing a lot of things and juggling many balls. And that can be, in some ways, affirming of a sense of identity, and I’m in action.

And so, for me, over the years, is recognizing that there is actually a deep-seated fear of slowing down and doing nothing because, “Well, what if I become lazy? What if I never achieve anything again? What if this means I’m amount to nothing? What if…?” And so, just looking at where fear is pulling the strings and sometimes pushing me into the state of doing and busyness, and actually confronting that and going, “You know what, I don’t have to do more to be worthy. I don’t have to achieve more to be worthy. I am worthy.”

And, actually, right now, the most valuable thing for me to do is to just sit and pause and get really present and grounded in who I am and what I’m about rather than being in action. And then that enables me to then actually upgrade my action so that when I go back into action, I’m far more aligned, have far more clarity, much more intentional about what I’m doing. So, does that make sense?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah, intriguing. And I’d love if you could share a little bit more in terms of what are the scariest things that may be lurking for us in the solitude, in the quiet, in that silence?

Margie Warrell
Well, we have to come face to face with just like who we are at the deepest place because it’s easy, busyness can be a great tool for distraction. When we’re busy, it almost can be addictive because it can be feeding us and giving us a sense of significance. And, I mean, we all want to feel significant in our lives. To be human is to want to feel significant in some way. And we can achieve that through healthy means and we can achieve it through unhealthy means.

And I think that the busyness can provide that sense of, sort of like, “Oh, you know, look at all that I’m doing.” And people are going, “Wow, aren’t you doing a lot?” And so, the confronting part of just pressing pause on that is to go, “Who am I if I’m not doing that? And what are the deepest fears that are sometimes lurking there out of immediate line of sight?”

And I think, for many of us, there’s a deep-seated fear of being unworthy, of being judged and found wanting, “You are not smart enough. You are not clever, capable, experienced, intelligent, educated, likable, lovable, leader-like enough,” insert something before the word enough. And I think it’s part of the deep work of growing into who we can become to kind of pull back the covers on those fears.

Because they’re not always obvious but they can pull invisible strings that shape how we show up, how we speak up, the presence that we give to other people, how we lead, whether or not we are in tapping into our own intuitive sense of what’s going on around us and what’s going on for the people around us so that we can speak into their listening and be someone that builds trust and others come to count on  for the integrity and the character and the courage that we bring to situations, but not always loud courage, sometimes quiet courage.

Pete Mockaitis
And when you say enough, I always wonder, enough for what?

Margie Warrell
Yeah, enough. Enough of what gives us a sense of innate worthiness.

Pete Mockaitis
Enough to have worthiness.

Margie Warrell
And so, yeah, when people say enough, that can be many things, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, enough for your life to, fundamentally, have value.

Margie Warrell
Yeah, for you to have value.

Pete Mockaitis
A human being identity.

Margie Warrell
Yeah, and I think that can be, we can carry sometimes a sense of inadequacy in that we’re flawed, fallible in some way. And of course, let’s face it, we are all flawed and we are all fallible in some way. None of us are, get a 10 out of 10 on every category. That is part of the human condition, right? And so, my experience for myself, but also working with people, many whom have achieved incredible success, there’s often this insecurity in them that can be driving and driving, and actually can drive them to be work really hard and achieve amazing things.

But actually, they get to a level and that insecurity, if they haven’t done the inner work required to make peace with their vulnerabilities, to heal those childhood wounds, then that insecurity actually can cap them and ultimately can be a saboteur.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I would love to get your pro take. You’ve been working with many CEOs of large organizations with your time at Korn Ferry and your own work. So, just for funsies, could you share with us, roughly what percent of super high-achieving, big-deal executives have substantial levels of insecurity?

Margie Warrell
Well, substantial is a big word. But what percentage of high-achieving executives have some insecurity? I don’t want to say 100%, but I would say close to it because we all have something in us that can feel insecure at times. We all have moments of feeling insecure. None of us are invulnerable to things that can trigger something in us. So, I would say it’s close to 100 % of high-achieving executives have moments where they can feel insecure. But it’s whether they have their insecurities or their insecurities have them.

And so, when you use the word substantial insecurities, well, then that’s where, obviously, there’s a lot of insecurities that are running them versus them going, “Yeah, I’ve got this thing. This can make me feel insecure, but I’m self-aware enough.” And that’s where that self-awareness is so crucial to being a great leader, to being an effective executive, because we aren’t being governed by our insecurities and our fears.

And, of course, our fears don’t always show up as, “Oh, I’m really nervous. I’m so scared I’m going to mess this up.” You know, it’s not necessarily paralysis, it’s not panic, it’s not outward, overt self-doubt. More often, those insecurities can show up as intellectualizing emotions, being controlling, not delegating downward effectively, micromanaging, second-guessing people, being someone that is not okay with being challenged, so people don’t challenge because they know that this runs a risk.

And so, there’s lots of different ways that our insecurity, and let’s just be clear here, insecurity is just another term for an unfaced fear, an unprocessed fear.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, so you nailed it in terms of that’s what I mean by substantial insecurity, like you have a hard time being wrong or letting someone else shine, or clearly acknowledging humbly, it’s like, “Yeah, you know a lot more about this thing than I do. So, I’m going to let you take over.”

Margie Warrell
Yeah, you bet.

Pete Mockaitis
“And, hey, I like your idea better than mine. Let’s go with yours and forget what I said.”

Margie Warrell
And not just that, but actively seeking that out, too, and saying to people in the room, “Hey, look, I don’t know everything. You know, what is it that I could be missing here?” And actively soliciting people to put forward opinions that may actually contradict or, if not contradict, may not line squarely up with your own.

And when they say those things, that you might actually disagree with, you might actually think they’re wrong. And maybe they’re critical of you and the judgment that you’ve made, that you don’t get defensive, and you go, “Wow, tell me more about that. Tell me more about that.” And that people never have to hesitate to say that. And, to me, that is an indicator of a leader who has done their work, and who is well and truly leading from values and not emotions and not insecurity.

Because no matter what anyone says about them, they don’t get triggered by that, they don’t take offense, “How could you say that?” They’re, like, curious, they’re humble, they’re eager to learn and they listen with an ear to how they could be wrong. And then they always acknowledge when they’ve changed their mind and they share that, and go, “You know, I thought this, but, yeah, I realized I was wrong. I wasn’t factoring in these other things,” and they can share that openly. And there’s a lot of senior executives who are not in a place where they’re able to do that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, that’s what I’m getting at. I think you’ve painted a lovely picture on what I mean by substantial insecurity versus substantial security. So, could you give us a very rough figure, like, at the top levels, who’s got that substantial insecurity and who doesn’t as a rough percentage?

Margie Warrell
I would say a solid 50%.

Pete Mockaitis
Fifty-fifty, all right.

Margie Warrell
Yeah, I mean, that could vary and it varies in organizations because there’s different cultures. So, I’ve worked in organizations where the culture is very grounded in purpose, and values, and authenticity, and people who posture and who are ego-driven, you know, overtly ego-driven. Their behavior gets, their, like, white bloods, they get ejected out.

Like, they can be really brilliant at what they do. But it’s like, at the end of the day, people are recognizing, “Ah, very ego-driven.” They’re an insecure person, even though they might be brilliant at what they do. And so, then there’s cultures where, “You know what, it’s about what are your numbers? Honestly, we don’t care much about all the other stuff. What are your numbers?”

And sometimes the people who get the best numbers are people who can be massively ego-driven and not the least bit, or very only mildly self-aware. And so, it’s all about, “Hah, who’s winning?Who’s winning? And who can get the biggest number fastest?” And that gets rewarded and that gets promoted.

And so, you end up with an executive bench of people who are all very, very ego-driven, competitive, but not necessarily particularly self-aware.

Whenever executive teams don’t make great decisions, and you see over time, there’s a leakage of value and the organization starts to lose edge and the culture grows, there’s toxic elements to it and disengagement and higher turnover, etc., it’s never because the people on that executive team lack intelligence individually or collectively, that they lack expertise and skill individually or collectively, that they lack access to information and resources.

It is because of the ego, and I’m talking about ego, I’m talking like, “I got to prove that I’m right and you’re wrong,” and there’s a defensiveness and it’s that insecurity at play because that undermines the dynamics in the team, and it undermines the quality of decision-making. There is not open, candid conversations. There is silos. There is protecting of information. There is a whole lot of conversations going on outside of the room. There is not good upward and sideways feedback.

And all of those factors at play, they are what create this slow leakage of value that, over time, you see organizations start to lose edge. And so, yeah, it’s not that they don’t know what to do, it’s that they’re not doing what they know.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, this reminds me, we had Pat Lencioni on the show and talking about smart versus healthy with regard to teams and dynamics and how it’s, a lot of times they got the know-how, but in terms of the courage and going there and having those conversations, it’s great.

So, it sounds like we’re pretty strong on the case here for how having more courage will help you be more awesome at your job with regard to just feeling good, facing down those monsters, as well as better teamwork, etc. Any other key things you’d put forward in terms of the case for why professionals would be better off with an extra dose of courage?

Margie Warrell
Well, let me just share, there’s two core dimensions to courage. And we often focus in on the field of fear and do it anyway, “Be bold. Take a risk. Put yourself out there. Set a bold vision. Have the crucial conversations. Take those risks for yourself, professionally,” in terms of then leading how you manage others.

But what we often fail to factor in is the second dimension of courage, and that is the regulation of our fear, the management of our anxious thinking. Because courage is action in the presence of fear and the presence of risks, real or perceived, but often we’re more afraid than we need to be. And right now, it’s a perfect case in point.

There are a lot of people right now who are feeling incredibly anxious because there is immense uncertainty. Yes, there is a new administration in the White House. There has been massive disruption. The markets are volatile. People are worried about the future. But you know what? There’s always been uncertainty. We’ve always had disruption. And, yes, it may feel like, “Oh, no, but not like this.” But these times have come before and they’ve gone before.

And so, a lot of the time we are victim to what’s called certainty bias. When we look back at the past, we know how the story ended, so we go, “No, it wasn’t like this,” because we don’t know how the story is going to end. But five years from now, we’re going to look back on this moment right now and go, “Oh, well, you know, it worked out,” and because there’s going to be new uncertainty.

So, often people are feeling more anxious than they need to be, and anxiety magnifies our perceptions of risk. And people pull back and they triple on what they can control and they try and find certainty so they get really short-sighted, and then they fail to take the very actions that would actually expand future possibilities, that would grow and accelerate learning curves, so that they’d be in a better position for whatever unfolds out the other side of this disruption, whether that’s Gen AI, whether that’s regulatory policy changing, etc.

And so, I think it’s just so important for people to realize it’s not just about, “Be brave. Just put yourself out there.” It’s also going, “Where am I scaring myself because of how I am perceiving all of the risks and all the uncertainty and all the unknowns? And where am I being a little short-sighted and not looking far enough ahead to the horizon and go, what is it that I could be doing right now that will put me in a better position, one, three, five years from now?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, can you share with us what are some of your favorite tips, tricks, interventions, actions, things to do to get more courage?

Margie Warrell
Well, obviously in The Courage Gap, I talk about five key principles for closing that gap between what we could do and what we actually do, between our insight and the impact we make for ourselves, for others. And the first one of those principles is focusing on what it is that you want, what is the highest outcome you want to achieve.

And that could be, right now, today, “With an employee, my boss, a co-worker, I’m having a difficult time with. There’s a lot of frustration. Maybe I’m feeling really resentful toward them. Maybe I’m feeling underappreciated.” So, ask yourself, what is your highest intention for that relationship? Or, if it’s your career, “What is my highest intention for my career over the next one year, three years, five, 10?”

Because, if we’re not clear about what it is we want, our vision and our values, then our attention is going to be held captive by what it is we don’t want, because fear is a really potent emotion. We naturally gravitate to the negatives, to what’s wrong, to what we can’t do, to what we hope won’t happen.

And so, there is a huge power that we unlock within ourselves, but also it expands our field of vision of what actions we can take when we connect to what it is we do want and what our highest intention is, what our ultimate outcome is, because what we focus on expands. Energy multiplies by a factor of what our attention is on.

And so, that is a key principle. And many people don’t realize how much of their time and how much of their energy and how many of their conversations are all about what is wrong, and what can’t be done, and what shouldn’t happen, and what a pain their boss is, or what a pain this colleague is, versus “What can they do? What do they have? What do they want? How can they work better with this colleague? How can they help foster a better relationship with their boss?”

And the way I could go about doing that versus kind of being stuck in either a self-pity, you know, feeling like a bit of a victim or getting stuck into a blame like, “Ugh,” or just having a story that we are powerless to improve our situation, which is never true. And the biggest way we disempower ourselves is telling ourselves we can’t do anything.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, when you say highest intention, you mean highest in the sense of most noble and in fulfillment of our deepest, most important values, as opposed to just a really big achievement, like high, like Mount Everest high.

Margie Warrell
The two don’t have to be mutually exclusive. So, you can have a really high intention to live a life of adventure and do amazing things, and that means you want to climb Mount Everest. But it also could mean, “I want to have a really good relationship with the people on my team. I want to do what I can to be the kind of person that I would want to work with.” But the highest intention, whatever it is, it has to align with our deepest values. So, what are your deepest values that want to define you and how you live your life?

And it’s funny you mentioned, you know, climbing a mountain. Several years back, I climbed Mount Kilimanjaro with my husband and our four teenage children, which was a pretty bold, audacious undertaking at the time because we lived at sea level in Australia. We didn’t go mountain climbing on weekends for fun because there weren’t any mountains near us. And so, it was pretty bold to kind of go, “All right, let’s do this.”

But one of my kids, Ben, said, “Hey, wouldn’t it be cool to climb Mount Kilimanjaro for dad’s 50^th birthday?” He did this whole PowerPoint deck. He rallied the whole family behind this vision of climbing to the rooftop of Africa for dad’s 50^th, “Our family will always remember it.” So, we created an intention for, as a family, right, to do this thing that would be so cool. There was a chance we weren’t going to get to the top. The altitude can really take a toll on our bodies, particularly younger bodies. My youngest was 13 at the time, but that intention to do that is what kind of galvanized our collective resolve to go, “Let’s try.”

And as it was, we did make it to the top of Kilimanjaro. It was a really tough day, but our intention will always align with some value. I mean, I have no desire to climb Mount Everest after climbing Kilimanjaro, but for us as a family, like this would be a really cool thing to do as a family. That was a value.

But for some people, it could be, “I want to just build a business that contributes to my community, that serves the needs of these customers, these people in my local geography,” or maybe it’s to do something that’s on a global scale, but there’s still a value that it’s aligned with. But for people listening to this, I know for me, professionally, I have always wanted to do work that aligned with, one, yes, my value to make an impact for others, to help others live their purpose, to use their talents for the greater good, but also to use my talents in a way that honors those talents.

And so, we all have different talents. People, we come out of the womb with different gifts and, yes, we have to hone them. But so it could be that you just really want to do something that lights you up. You’re leveraging your strengths fully. We thrive the most when we are leveraging our strengths in service of something that’s meaningful to us versus something that’s purely superficial. And while when we’re younger, sometimes it is superficial. As we go through life, people who thrive the most are doing things, they’re working hard toward meaningful goals.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, and I guess that’s what I’m zeroing in on when I say highest intention is it’s like, you could have, maybe you want to build a business to prove everyone wrong, “They thought I couldn’t do it. Look at me now.” Or it’s like, “I want to have a sick Lamborghini.” So, these are things that motivate some people. But I’m guessing that if we dig deeper into values work, those wouldn’t be, in fact, the highest intention that have the most potency for boosting the courage.

Margie Warrell
Well, look, and if you love cars and you want to have a Lamborghini, like, great, knock yourself out and work hard for that Lamborghini. I’m not a car person myself, but if your sense of security and identity is coming from sources outside of yourself, then you will always feel a little insecure. Because once you’ve got that Lamborghini and you drive it right up the main street of town and you’ve got the music blaring and you’re making sure everyone’s looking at you, and they’re like, “Wow, you’ve got a Lamborghini.” It’s like, “Great, it feels good. Like, yeah. See? See my Lamborghini?”

But, okay, after a while, it gets a little, it wears off. We habituate to, “Okay, now what do I have to do?” Because it’s a cup with a hole in the bottom. It’s never going to fill up if your sense of worth and value has to be externally validated all the time. And that’s not to say, it’s natural to want to have external validation. I love external validation.

But if that’s what our identity is built on, it’s going to be built on a house of cards because, you know, what happens if you lose your Lamborghini? What happens if you lose all your money? That can happen. That does happen to people. And so, I think we have to be really careful about where our sense of identity comes from. And there is no greater source of identity than being really living in alignment with our values. It is got to be an internally sourced identity versus externally validated all the time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we’ve got five principles. The first is the highest intention. What’s the next?

Margie Warrell
Second is re-scripting the narratives that are keeping you stuck, stressed, or living too safely. So, of course, we all tell ourselves stories all the time, like, “Oh, it’s a nice day out there today.” As it is, while I’m talking to you, I can see the cherry blossoms coming out here in North Virginia. But sometimes our stories get in our way and keep us from doing the very things that would serve us.

So, our stories can stoke up our fear. They can make us feel more stressed like, you know, we tell ourselves stories, “Oh, it’s the end of the world,” “I’m never going to get another job,” “I’m too old.” There’s a lot, I’m surrounded by people who use even language, “It’s a nightmare situation. I’m never going to be able to figure this out.”

And so, they make themselves feel more stressed than they need to be. But sometimes our stories can give us air cover for living too safely, for going, “Oh, well, you know, it’s not so bad. And everybody else has got it worse than me. Or, at least I’ve got a job.” And I’m like, “Yeah, but are you happy in your job?” “Yeah, but at least it pays the bills.” I’m like, “Come on, like life’s short.” And so, we can often tell ourselves stories that keep us from taking the very actions we’re wholly capable of taking.

Sometimes we tell ourselves lies. We call them vital lies, the soothing myths, truths that spare us from having to look at ourself and go, “What is the price I’m paying for the story that I’m telling myself? It’s making me feel okay in the moment, but it’s actually keeping me stuck. It’s actually keeping me from connecting in more meaningful ways with other people, or making a change that I know deep, deep down, I really need to make because I’m not feeling a sense of purpose. I’m not feeling like I’m living the life I want to be living?”

And so, just recognizing that if your stories aren’t making you feel more powerful, like they’re not empowering you, if they’re not aligning with something that gives you a sense of meaning and purpose, and if they’re not making you feel more positive about your future, then your stories are working against you.

And I often say to people, like, “Tell me, what’s your ultimate vision of success?” And then they’ll go, “Well…” And when they let themselves really connect with that vision and they focus on what they want, I’m like, “Well, what story would you need to be telling yourself for that to become your reality?” because our beliefs are the software of behavior. Everything we do is belief-driven. So, what’s the story that you need to tell yourself so that you’ll take the actions to create the outcomes you want?

And if you’re feeling stuck in your career or you’re feeling like you’re hitting your head against a wall, I would just say to you, like, “What’s the story you’ve been telling yourself? And what emotions does that create? Where is that keeping you playing too small? Where is that keeping you stuck in excuses? Where is that keeping you showing up in a more diminutive way than really serves you? And so, what’s another story you could tell and re-script that story? Because you create your stories, but your stories then create you.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And the third principle?

Margie Warrell
The third principle is about embodying courage and connecting to the sources of courage within us, but also around us in our relationships with others. And often we don’t recognize how we’re moving through the world in an anxious state. John Wooden, the great iconic basketball coach, once said, “It’s not about how tall you are. It’s about how tall you play.”

And often we don’t realize how much fear is trapped in our bodies, keeping us from showing up, stepping up, speaking up, walking into a room in a way that not only changes how others perceive us, but changes how we perceive ourselves. Some great research out of the Kellogg School of Business that found that postural expansiveness literally shifts how people perceive us, as well as how we perceive ourselves, regardless of our actual status on an organization chart. And so, just stand tall and take a deep breath and reset your nervous system, named a nervous system for reason at that ground level, and, likewise, connect with people around you who make you feel braver, who help to quell the doubts versus to feed them.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And the fourth?

Margie Warrell
That’s about stepping into discomfort and really resetting our relationship with discomfort. All of us are wired to want to avoid what’s uncomfortable, but the more willing you are to do uncomfortable things and embracing discomfort, embracing the growing pains, it actually will expand your behavioral repertoire to do the very things that are going to set you up for success.

And there is a lot to be said for recognizing that our fear constricts what we do. And the more we’re willing to get comfortable, practice getting comfortable being uncomfortable, then it expands us to do all sorts of things. Because when you’re willing to feel anything, it emboldens you for everything.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And the fifth?

Margie Warrell
And the fifth is all about making peace with our failures and making peace with ourselves for failing to show up as the person we most want to be sometimes because no one is brave all the time. And the more we can be kind to ourselves in those moments when we either try something and fail, or we fail to try, and that little inner Chicken Little wins out, then the quicker we’ll be able to pick ourselves up, to dust ourselves off, to learn the lessons that our failures and our mistakes hold, and then to move forward more wisely.

And for those who are listening who can be really hard on themselves, I think this final step which is about finding the treasure when you trip can be the most, the biggest unlock because we’re so often really hard on ourselves. And when you’re really hard on yourself, it doesn’t make you braver. It actually makes you live a little smaller and hold back from taking the very risks that would serve you most.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, let’s talk about the rescripting narratives for a bit. Could you give us a common narrative that you’ve seen hold folks back and an example of a finer script to replace it?

Margie Warrell
Yes. So, as people are moving up in their careers, often they’ll look at management, the leadership, and it’s them, they over there, you know, “They don’t care. They have no idea what’s going on. They’re just, you know, they’re all so disconnected and removed from what it’s really like to try and run this business at the ground level and deal with the clients, etc.”

And so, there’s this kind of othering of those people in management, those who are on the executive team. And the reality is those people were once in your shoes, and sometimes people become the they, and they realize, “You know, if only management…” I’m like, “You are management. You are the they, like this is you.”

But wherever you sit on your career trajectory and on some org chart, recognizing that you have the power to be a leader at every level. And so, rescripting it about how you see yourself in your own power, like, “I am a leader. I have the ability to influence change here. And, sure, I mightn’t have as much as the person at the top, but I have the ability to lead change in the sphere of influence in my workplace every day.” So, that’s one re-script.

Another key one I hear people talking about is other people and saying things like, “Ugh, they’re so intimidating. They don’t care,” and they create negative narratives, and maybe there’s some evidence to support them. But when it comes to saying someone is intimidating or something, “That person is an a-hole,” or something like that, ask yourself instead, “What is it that’s going on in me that needs me to judge them? That person’s going to be how that person’s going to be, but how do I choose to show up?”

So, I choose to show up as someone who is empowered and is focused on bringing value regardless of how the behavior of others around me, and by reclaiming kind of the power that I get to choose how I show up, regardless of what other people are doing. And that often when we call other people intimidating, actually they’re not intimidating. It’s the story you’re telling yourself about them that’s making you feel intimidated. It’s got nothing to do with them. It’s got everything to do with you. So, yeah, there’s a couple of examples right there. I hope that’s of value.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, well, thank you. Well, tell me, Margie, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Margie Warrell
Well, I would simply say if there’s something that’s causing you stress right now, that just keeps coming up again and again, maybe in different clothes, but it’s just a recurring issue, in there, lays your greatest growth. In there is an un-face fear, there is fear in some form that’s kept you from addressing it more effectively.

Maybe taking ownership for something that you’re doing that’s contributing to it, that you’d rather blame it on everyone else. But recognizing that those things that test you the most, also teach you the most and can be the catalyst for your highest growth and transformation.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Margie Warrell
Anais, Nin, “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one’s courage.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Margie Warrell
My favorite study is the work of Amy Edmondson out of Harvard on psychological safety, and that it’s the teams that report the most mistakes that are actually the highest performing because they feel safe enough to be able to share the truth.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Margie Warrell
My favorite book would be The Road Less Traveled by Scott Peck.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool you use to be awesome at your job?

Margie Warrell
My daily planner.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Margie Warrell
Reading wisdom literature first thing in the morning over my cup of tea in the early hours to set my intention for the day.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a Margie original sound bite or nugget that people quote back to you often?

Margie Warrell
Yes, and that’s “Living bravely is indispensable for living well.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Margie Warrell
They can head over to my website, MargieWarrell.com, or just connect with me on LinkedIn or anywhere that you hang out on social media, or my Live Brave Podcast.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Margie Warrell
Thank you. I invite people to take my courage quiz. If you head over to my website, to “The Courage Gap” page, you’ll see The Courage Quiz, and I invite you to take it because it’ll help you identify where the courage gaps are in your life and how you can close them.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Margie, thank you.

Margie Warrell
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Graham, welcome!

Graham Cochrane
Good to be here, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Graham, we are talking about being a rebel, finding yourself by not following the crowd. That sounds cool. Can you tell us about one of your most rebellious decisions and how it worked out for you?

Graham Cochrane
I think the one that changed sort of the course for me was when I lost my job in the middle of the Great Recession. It was 2009, we just bought a house, we just had our first baby, we just moved a thousand miles away, and I lost my job, and I just didn’t want to go back to any job. I had floated for a few years, and I think I made this subtle agreement with myself that I’m going to do whatever it takes to find—it wasn’t that I didn’t like working.

Actually, I liked being in an office with people. It’s just I hadn’t found what was the right fit for me, and so I made the subtle decision to not take any job, or not even go look for a job. I was going to find a way to create an income the way I like to do it, doing things that were interesting to me so I could show up as my highest, best self.

I didn’t know if this was going to work. I didn’t know that you could create an online business, which is what I ended up doing. But that subtle decision of, “Nope, I’m not going to go get a job. I’m not going to even interview or apply,” and I got a lot of flak from family members, you know, the whole, “It’s the holidays. Hey, so how is applying for another job going?”

We were on food stamps for like 18 months, “So, are you applying for a job?” and I’m like, “Nope.” And it was hard because I wasn’t even confident in my decision but that was probably one of the most rebellious moves that, really, for me, shifted the course of my life and got me into entrepreneurship and content creation and writing books and speaking, stuff I would never have pursued had I never made that decision. So, yeah, I’m glad I did. I was scared out of my mind when I was doing it.

Pete Mockaitis
And you talk about living life on autopilot as well. Is that, in your view, kind of the opposite of rebelling?

Graham Cochrane
Yes. So, when I talk about being a rebel, I don’t know what comes to mind for you when you hear the word rebel. Sometimes it’s like James Dean.

Pete Mockaitis
Like Star Wars.

Graham Cochrane
Star Wars, yeah. It’s like either James Dean in “Rebel Without a Cause,” with a red leather jacket, or it’s Star Wars because you’re a cool guy, and you appreciate the Rebel Alliance.

Pete Mockaitis
I don’t know if that makes me cool.

Graham Cochrane
In my book, it makes you cool, Pete, and my daughter, too. But, yet, rebellion seems like a bad thing but it depends on what you’re rebelling against. And what I’m rebelling against, and what I encourage people to do in the book, is to rebel against conformity, which is just going along with what everyone else is doing.

Unless you have looked at what everyone else is doing, and the path it leads to, the destination it leads to, and decided that’s exactly what you want, then you’re actually in good shape because we’re in a current, we’re in a stream, all of us like that stick in the stream, and the stick doesn’t have to do anything. It’s going to end up wherever the stream takes it.

And I think that’s where conformity is taking us somewhere, the way we think about how we spend our time, how we think about family and marriage, how we spend our money. We’re just doing what the culture at large is doing. Or the little microculture of your friend group, your family members, your church, whoever you hang out with is kind of affecting you because we all kind of gravitate towards what everyone else is doing.

And so, to me, a rebel is just saying, “Hey, I don’t know if I like where this is going. Let me just step out of the stream for a minute, look around at the sort of core areas of life,” your work, your finances, your relationships, your health, your spirituality, the way you spend your time, “Do I want to go somewhere else?”

And so, to be a rebel, by definition, is to do the opposite of what other people are doing, but maybe the opposite is the best thing for you, and maybe the best thing for them, and they might be inspired to join you, eventually. But, yeah, that’s what I’m encouraging people to do, and it’s a very personal decision because what’s rebellious for you might be different than for me.

But it’s really lifestyle design, it’s being intentional with your life, and having the guts to do what you need to do for your life and your family even if it’s not what everyone else around you is doing, or even the ones who love you say you should do, because they just want to protect you and keep you safe, but we don’t want to be safe. We want to flourish.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of good wisdom there, for sure, because we can just get swept up, go with the flow, and end up where everyone else ends up. And if you’ve thoughtfully, clearly, carefully examined, it’s like, “Yes, that’s exactly where I want to end up,” well, then, cool. Just enjoy the ride, I guess. But, often, the problem is it’s not where we want to end, and we haven’t taken the time to really examine the situation.

It’s funny, I remember, I had… it was almost like an epiphany. So, I was in my business, doing things, making decisions, and it’s almost like I had just sort of the default assumption, and maybe this came from my finance classes, I’m like, “Of course, the purpose of the firm is to maximize shareholder wealth.” But then it was almost like revelation, like, “You know what, I don’t actually have to always choose the thing that makes the most money.”

Graham Cochrane
Bingo.

Pete Mockaitis
“I get to choose what’s the money target is. And if I want to do other things just for the fun of it, I get to do that. I’m not like the CEO of a publicly traded corporation who has duties and obligations, fiduciarily, in order to perform for these shareholders, so, no.”

And making a given podcast episode may or may not be profitable or modestly profitable but it’s cool and fun and interesting, and people appreciate it, and it opens up cool other opportunities down the road, and it’s just something I love doing, so I’m just going to go ahead and keep doing that, and that’s okay. And I think it’s so funny, I think about going with the flow, I’m thinking about fitness context now, and I’ve gotten sucked into this, too.

I think there’s science that suggests that when you’re pumping iron, you’re lifting weights, it liberates some more determination within you, just like feelings of that. Has that been your experience, Graham, in the gym?

Graham Cochrane
Oh, yeah. You’re like, “I can do this. I can do more. I’m going to do more.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. But, yes, that determination is almost affixed to the nearest thing in sight, which is more weights, but I could go ahead and apply that liberated determination to something else, and I have often been guilty of overdoing it. Like, every workout, I want to set a record, and that’s not the best plan, it turns out, as I’m 41 years old.

Graham Cochrane
No, you hit 40, you got to make sure you’re taking care of yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. So, I’m hearing you, like it’s quite easy to get sucked into an autopilot, go with the flow situation in all kinds of contexts. Could you illustrate this for us in the career space?

Graham Cochrane
Just in general, related to that, too, like there’s a lot of reasons why we go with the flow. Some of it is because we want to be accepted by the group and there’s sort of that subtle pressure. But, honestly, Pete, we’re just tired, too. We’re tired at the end of the day, especially if you’re in a job or career that’s frustrating, and then you’ve got a family. It’s a lot of responsibility so you’re just tired at the end of the day.

We end up abdicating our decision-making to what everyone else is doing, “Well, how do they manage their money?” or, “What kind of car do they drive?” or, “What kind of vacations do they take?” We just sort of abdicate. And I think we do this even in the career space, too, because it’s just easier than taking the effort to think because we’re just, honestly, exhausted.

I think, in the career space, we’re kind of like sheeple, you know, we’re kind of like guided around since we were kids in the school system where we’re told what to do, and people have studied this at length, but think about just the context with which we came out of the school system, was we don’t get to decide what grade to go. You go to the next grade, assuming you passed.

And you take the exams and you do the things they want you to do, and you might get some autonomy in middle high school where you could pick some electives and some classes. And then, if you do go to college, you get more autonomy getting to choose. But do we really choose the major we want or do we already get to that point of, when you’re 18, some people know what they want to do when they’re 18?

A lot of people, they’re just so young because there’s a million things you could do. Like, I’m multi-interested, multi-passionate, and even multi-gifted at things, which is confusing, it’s like, “I could do this. I could do that.” And so, I think, at 18, you don’t really know, so a lot of times we see these studies of people, really, at the end of the day, picking the major that makes them the most money.

It’s almost like a decision-making filter, “Well, I don’t really know what I want to do. So, what’s going to make me the most money? I’ll do that.” Engineering, or finance, or whatever it is, and so they pick it, and then it carries on until that leads you into what jobs to apply for. And then what jobs you’ve had, well, that’s the experience you have. And you are kind of trapped, unless you say, “You’re never trapped.” Unless you say otherwise, you are kind of already in this flow of just, “Well, this is the next logical thing.”

And what I want people to do, especially with the book Rebel, is to not do the next logical thing just because it’s the thing in front of you, because it might be the right logical thing if you’re in this career and you’re at this age or this stage or have this resume. But is that, to your point about your business, is that what you want to do? Is that what would actually fill you up?

My premise is that we’re all wired a specific way, and the frustrations in life come when we’re living out of alignment with our design, out of alignment with the way we’re wired. So, don’t fight the way you’re wired. There’s a way for you to actually flourish in your career in the workspace by being authentically you, but you’ve got to do some of that research to figure out who you are, what dreams light you up, what you actually want.

And once you get some clarity and a vision, it kind of makes the decision-making filter a lot easier now, like, “Okay, I could take this next job opportunity, absolutely. And it would mean this, this, these pros. And it would mean these cons, but now it’s not just a list of pros and cons.”

“I have a destination I’m trying to get to in life in terms of how I want to show up, what I want life to look like, and I can just ask ‘Does this job opportunity lead me closer to or farther away from that destination of the amount of time I want to have with my family, the way I want to feel, the type of people I want to work with, the types of projects I want to work on?’”

Some of the best people in an organization get promoted to managing other people, and now they’re no longer doing the thing they’re really good at. They’re just managing people, which is a different skill. We need good managers, but it’s not fulfilling anymore, it’s like, “I get paid more but I hate what I do because it was more fun to do the craft or the thing and work with the people than being the boss of them and not getting to do it myself.”

So, it really comes down to knowing who you are, what you want, so that you can better say yes to the decisions and advancements, or even going backwards a step if it means more fulfillment.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. I think my dear grade school principal was awesome, and I was too young to notice or appreciate how wonderful she was. But then I learned that, later on, she took a new role as a guidance counselor at another school. And you’d think, “Oh, wait a minute. Aren’t we going backwards? The principal is the boss of the guidance counselors and everybody. Isn’t the next step from principal, like, superintendent?” But I think she had a doubt, it’s like, “Hey, this is the part of the job I like the most was when I got to really kind of enter in students’ lives and see what’s up,” and that’s a beautiful thing.

Graham Cochrane
Oh, that’s real. That’s literally my uncle, well, he did the opposite. He was an elementary school principal and loved it and was so beloved in the Princeton school system at a school for many years, and he was so good that he got promoted to assistant superintendent, and eventually superintendent for all public schools in Princeton, New Jersey, and he was great at it, but it killed him.

Like, to the point when he retired, he had to, like, just chill for a year, he’s 50, because his adrenal glands were blown because he’s putting out fires and dealing with angry parents, and he’s like, “All I cared about was curriculum design for kids so they would actually get it and learn and flourish, and I wasn’t even hanging out with kids anymore. It’s, like, why did I do that?”

It’s a mixed bag because he got to have a lot of influence in some regards, but the natural path upwards isn’t always the most fulfilling path.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, dead on. And then, it’s funny, like those forces, in terms of, like, “Hey, it’s the next logical step,” so there’s that, you’ve got friends and family congratulating you, supporting you, like, “Oh, my gosh, wow. They’re going to give you the assistant superintendent job. That’s so cool. Congratulations!” So, you got that going.

You see dollar signs, like, “Ooh, there’s all sorts of things I’ve wanted to buy for some time that I’ve been postponing. Hmm, they could be mine now.” And so, there you go, those forces, you’re in a groove and they incline you to just take one more step in that groove, whether it’s right or wrong.

Graham Cochrane
Yeah, and that’s a great point. The groove and the step is, like, neutral. And sometimes group-think and where a culture is going isn’t neutral, that’s a topic maybe for another day, but it’s, like, a lot of times, these innocuous decisions of like, “Sure, yeah, I’ll take that promotion. Sure, we’ll do that. Sure, well, there’s nothing inherently harmful about it.”

But what’s harmful is stacking your life with those types of decisions because, then, you get to the end of your life, and you’re like, “Was that really me?” Like, I said something in a session with a coach I had one time, that’s like, “I don’t think the real Graham has come out to play yet.” Like, I’m still trying to discover who is the real Graham. If I’m not doing what others want me to do, if I’m not doing what I think I should do because I hold myself to a high standard.

But, to your point, where did those “shoulds” come from, “You should do this. You should show up in this way”? What would happen if I really figure out who I was and actually showed up in the world that way? What decisions would I make?” And it would ruffle some feathers at first, but I think there would be this beautiful freedom of, like, “Man, this is who I am. This is what matters to me and I’d be able to operate within the confines of the real world with a lot more clarity and confidence and joy,” and I think that’s missing in most people’s lives.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And I’m also thinking about, like, those voices in terms of any number of things, like buying a house or doing any kind of a deal. It’s sort of, like, everybody’s incentives are for you to go ahead and do that. It’s like the agent and the lender and all the powers that be, and it sort of takes a lot of gumption to be like, “You know what, this is not the right one after all. Sorry, everybody. Deal is dead. Hope you’ll find another one.”

Graham Cochrane
Yeah, and then a lot of us don’t want to do that because we don’t want to disappoint people. Even if we don’t say that out loud, that’s functionally what we’re doing, like, “Gosh, we’re already this far, and it would just be a mess,” and you’re in that current, man.

Pete Mockaitis
Totally. Well, let’s zero in. So, you said “I don’t feel like the real Graham has shown up to play yet,” a sentence that I think coaches would be fascinated to hear, it’s like, “Ooh, we’re getting somewhere now. Oh, yeah, let’s dig in.” So, if we find ourselves in such a spot, how on earth do we find the real Pete, the real Graham, the real person to liberate?

Graham Cochrane
Yeah, that’s a great question. So, in the book, I walk through a five-part framework. It spells the word REBEL, so it’s easy to remember, R-E-B-E-L, and it’s a linear path, there’s exercises and processes for each one. But the first step is the R, to resolve to dream again. So, my premise is that the first way to figure out who you are is to get back in touch with what you dream about, or dreamt about, what you want, what you desire.

I think that dreams are clues, they’re data points to the way we’re wired. They don’t tell us everything about us but they’re a great starting point. So, I walk people, in the book, through a 50-dreams exercise, and this is a fascinating exercise. Some people find this pretty easy, and some people find this incredibly frustrating. It probably depends on your background and your personality.

But the process, and you could do this this weekend, is sit down and write down 50 things you want. If you get stuck, one way to think about it, I love Tim Ferriss’ question, “If you were the smartest person in the world, and it were impossible to fail, what would you dream of doing, being, or having?” Those are the three categories, “What would you dream of doing, being, or having?” if you knew it was going to work out, and you just start to write.

There’s usually five to ten that will come to people pretty quickly that are already there, top of mind, you’re thinking about them. Maybe it’s, “We really want to buy a house,” maybe it’s, “We really want to take a trip to Mallorca,” I don’t know. But you really have to keep going to 50 because it starts to get deeper to the ones that are dormant, buried, maybe you haven’t thought since you were 10, that you’re not creating a bucket list of, like, “I’m going to do all 50 of these things,” although you certainly could, or become all 50, or have all 50.

It’s more about getting intel on yourself of, like, “Oh, wow, yeah, when I was 10, I wanted to be in a Star Wars movie. That was a dream I had,” let’s say. And, oh, by the way, real-life Graham still wants to be in a Star Wars movie. That’d be super dope. What does it tell me about myself? And maybe we don’t know yet but there’s something about the playfulness of being in a movie, of acting, then something about movies, in general, maybe something about the movie industry.

But it tells you a little bit about yourself, and you’re just letting yourself get familiar with yourself again, starting with desire. I think everything in the world is created through desire. I think nobody invents something cool, or writes a book, or builds a business, or has a family, or does any charitable work without any desire first. We’re desire beings. We’re not like avoid-punishment beings, although that can work for a time.

But what drives humans forward is the desire for something. And so, the desire is the starting point, and I want to know what’s behind that. And so, I get people to go through that exercise, and there’s more steps in there to sort of zero in on what to do with those things, but it gives you a high-level 30,000-foot view or airplane-view of who Pete is, who Graham is, based off of what he desires.

And I really do think that doing this exercise, judgment-free, which is the hardest part, is to make sure that you’re not: A, no one is going to see this, it’s just you and yourself; B, we tend to judge ourselves. So, if you find yourself wanting to write down, “I would really love to have a Ferrari,” and you’re like, “No, that’s dumb.” Like, bro, you and you know that you wanted to write that down. Just write it down, there’s something about it. Whether you have the Ferrari or not, maybe it’s you really enjoy cars, maybe you really enjoy speed, maybe you really enjoy high-quality things, and it just tells you something about yourself.

So, if you give yourself the freedom to go through this 50-dream exercise, it’s shocking how many people have gone through it, grown men, kids, that all have been weeping because it’s like, “Oh, man, I forgot that I want this thing,” or, “I’ve always wanted to do this, or go here, or experience this.” And they start to get familiar, reacquainted with themselves a little bit. It doesn’t solve everything or tell you everything about yourself, but it’s where you start.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that. And what’s so cool is that it can just lead into so many interesting pathways. Like, for a Ferrari, what it’s about is like being able to experience the very finest craftsmanship of a thing, maybe. And then that just sort of opens up all kinds of things, “Well, what could I experience that again? Oh, maybe the best possible flashlight. Well, one of those $200 flashlights that police officers have that look amazing, I want to get that one.”

And so, that’s so small scale but, in so doing, it feels like you’re already entering into a different kind of a vibe or groove or energy or flow in terms of how you’re approaching life and what you’re getting after.

Graham Cochrane
Yeah, that’s a great point, Pete, because most people go into personal development, or this kind of self-inner work out of a place of, “I got to fix myself. I’m a mess or I have this problem.” And, yeah, you might have a mess, and you might have problems, we all do, but when you bring that energy as the first energy, like, “Oh, God, I suck. How can fix myself?” you’re never going to have curiosity, you’re never going to be imaginative, these parts of your brain that you really need to write and create new neural pathways.

So, I love starting with desire and dreaming also because, to your point, it starts with a great vibe of like, “Oh, yeah, man. I always wanted to have a basketball hoop in my driveway when I was a kid but I never did. And you know what, even if could go to the gym and play basketball, I’m just going to go get one, not even just for my kids. Like, for myself because I think it’d be really cool.”

It just gets you in a place of playfulness, and then judgment goes down, walls go down, and now you can actually think creatively as opposed to, like, “Oh, I can’t do that. I shouldn’t do this.” Like, there’s so many guardrails we put up because we’ve already blocked ourselves from opportunity because we just aren’t being creative and let ourselves think that way.

But this type of exercise, I think, puts you in a beautiful headspace where you can, at least, get curious even if you’re like, “I don’t know how any of these is going to happen. That’s okay,” but at least get in touch with what drives you, what desires you had, have, would have if you let yourself think about it, and you might be surprised.

You won’t be surprised by some of the things on the list, you’d be like, “Yup, I’ve always wanted a beach house,” “Yup, I’ve always wanted to live in this country for a month, but, man, I forgot about that or I hadn’t thought about that or articulated that in a certain way,” and it’s really instructive.

Pete Mockaitis
And I love your point when you said, with the basketball hoop, it’s like, “Oh, I could play basketball at the gym.” I think it’s very common for our little brains to fire off resistance of just, like, instantly kill that dream, it’s like, “Oh, that’s not really practical. Like, I already have a gym membership, and buying a basketball hoop is sort of unnecessary use of money.” It’s kind of scary how fast that brain could immediately terminate that. Any pro tips on that?

Graham Cochrane
That, I think, is the default wiring of so many of us, especially in America and in the West, we’re like a society that’s kind of built for what’s productive and efficient and makes sense. And by that means what makes money or saves money, because we kind of worship the dollar in a weird way. I don’t think every culture is this way.

But if you grew up in a culture like America, then you’re swimming in the thinking, so, yeah, that’s like, “That’s not practical. That’s a waste of money. Or, if I did it, it feels a little risque.” Even if it’s a $200 purchase, it’s like, “Oh, my gosh, like what’s the point? I already have a basketball hoop.” But, at the same time, there are so many things that we do.

We’re so confusing and so hypocritical as a culture. Some of these we’ll buy and do that don’t make sense but we just do them because we want them. And so, I just think that’s okay. I think it’s okay. Like, the work we’re doing here, again, is private, it’s just you and your journal or your Google Doc. You’re just trying to get better in touch with, like, “Hey, I’m not saying I’m going to go buy a basketball hoop, or a Ferrari, or I’m going to pull my kids out school and we’re going to move to the Caribbean, like whatever. I’m just going to get curious. Like, oh, this would be cool.”

So, for example, two summers ago, I took my family to Puerto Rico. We stayed there for three-four weeks in the summer. And we’re in this really cute town, Rincon, like a surf town, we took some surfer lessons, and people are really cool there, and it’s really laid back, and I was like, “Yeah, what would it be like if we moved to Puerto Rico?”

And I got some friends that live in Puerto Rico, and they’re like, “Oh, my gosh, bro. Like, 4% taxes, like all these entrepreneurs that are getting crushed in the mainland States.” So, I was joking with my wife, it’s like, “Babe, we could move here. We would save a crap ton of money, just operating the business out of Puerto Rico. It’s awesome, the beaches.”

And my kids and my wife know now that, like, when daddy says that or mommy says that, like, we’re not, “This is what we’re doing.” Nobody freaks out. We just play the game of, like, “Oh, I wonder what that would be like?”

And it just gives us the permission to dream a little bit. And whether we move to Puerto Rico or not, there’s something about when we were there, that we like, about the lifestyle, about it wasn’t glitzy, it was chill, the people were nice, the access to the beaches, tropical vibe. And so,“Okay, how can we incorporate that in our everyday life more often? And let’s just tuck that nugget away. There’s something about that that we like,” and we let ourselves play.

And I think that’s a muscle you flex because now I know more about myself. I don’t have to execute on it. I don’t have to sell everything and move to Puerto Rico. There’s no red flags here. It’s just an exercise of dreaming and stretching your imagination.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. Well, we talked a lot about step one. Could we hear the rapid version of the E-B-E-L of REBEL?

Graham Cochrane
So, the first E after that is to establish the outcomes you want in life. So, you dream, that’s the high-level dream. And if you go through the exercises, there’s kind of a way of narrowing it down and getting more intel on some of those dreams, and now you know a bit about yourself. But next is really to get a vision for your life. And I think the most useful question here, and I stole this from Rich Litvin, who’s a friend and coach of mine, because it was the most useful exercise for me.

Pete Mockaitis
The Prosperous Coach.

Graham Cochrane
Yup, he wrote the The Prosperous Coach, great book. And the question is this, so I’ll do it with you, Pete. So, imagine we bumped into each other three years from now, and we’re at a conference or on a plane, and I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, Pete, I was on your show, like, three years ago, and I haven’t seen you since. How the heck are you?”

And you tell me, “Graham, this has been the best three years of my life,” and I’m like, “Oh, dude, that’s awesome. Like, tell me about it. What has happened?” This is the exercise, what would you have to say to truthfully tell me that it has been, past tense, the best three years of your life?

And whatever comes to mind is what you write down, “Oh, gosh, well, if it’s been the best three years of my life, this happened,” or, “We did this,” or, “I got rid of that,” or, “I moved here,” or, “My kids weren’t yelling at me anymore,” or whatever it was. Like, you just write it down – life, work, money, health, whatever – and, all of a sudden, you had this magical list that tells you something.

One, things you really value, and you might’ve gotten some inspiration from your 50 dreams list, but, two, the three-year mark is the magic for me, and that’s what I love about Rich’s question is, people have 10-year goals, and I’m a planner. Like, I’m high futuristic on the StrengthsFinder, that makes sense to me. But even for me, it’s hard to motivate me 10 years down the road, plus I’m going to be a totally different person in 10 years.

Like, I don’t know about you, Pete, but 10 years ago, when you were 31, I’m sure you’re totally different person and so much has changed in those 10 years, and it’s hard to predict. So, I don’t love 10-year goals because it’s easy for them to disappear. One-year goals are great for motivation. I love New Year Resolutions but they’re hard to completely change your life and hard to sustain because there’s like too much pressure on the goal to happen this year.

But three years is like close enough to my current day and season of life that I can kind of imagine my kids’ age, what’s happening, there’s already some season I’m planting that will harvest in the next couple of years. But, also, you and I both know, we could do a lot of damage in 36 months. We can completely transform our bodies in 36 months. You can completely transform your marriage in 36 months, your career. You can do a lot in 36 months.

And so, I think that three-year span is a magical timeframe. And so, this is the part in the process of, like, “What do I really want to be true in three years?” and seeing that in front of you. It’s so powerful.

Pete Mockaitis
I love it. Let’s hear about the breaking negative thoughts, habits, and patterns.

Graham Cochrane
Yup, you got it. B is break the negative thoughts, habits, and patterns. We do an inner story audit so you’re getting clear on your dreams and vision. But the thing that blocks people from actually living the vision, even if they have one, is the story they tell themselves. So, we do what I call an inner story audit, and we kind of quiet that internal default narrative that’s drowning out your intuitive sense and the guiding force that wants to lead you where you want to go.

Once you do some of that inner work and break some of that down, now you’re freed up to make some changes. That’s where the second E comes in, and that’s where we engage in rebellious new behavior, and this is just life changing. I walk you through the life change formula, which, real quickly, the way I look at life changes – belief, think, feel, do.

So, change your beliefs, change what you think about all day long, changes how you feel in your emotions, which, ultimately, changes your actions. And action is what changes your life, but it all starts with belief change, so we walk through that. That, and sort of setting up your days and your weeks, and pursuing the vision.

And then, finally, the L is the hardest part of the process for me, personally, and that is to let go of other people’s opinions and the outcomes we already established in step two. So, you hold them loosely.

Pete Mockaitis
That does sound hard.

Graham Cochrane
Yeah, you create a vision, you live intentionally, and, ultimately, since we can’t control the future, and I don’t think anybody that tells you they can is telling you the truth. You have to live open-handedly, like, “Hey, I’m going in this direction. I have no idea how it’s going to turn out, so I’m going to be really open-handed about it and enjoy the journey, knowing that I’m orienting my life to where I want to go, but I have no idea what it’s going to look like specifically.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, so if we do have some people-pleasing instincts, and that is tricky, to let go of other people’s opinions, any pro tips there?

Graham Cochrane
Yeah, I have people walk through creating personal values, or family values if you have a family. I find this actually incredibly useful. My wife and I were sitting on a back porch of this mountain house in Colorado on a vacation, and we were just journaling, and talking, and reading, and praying, and dreaming, and we just started talking about family values.

I said, “We’ve never really written down family values. Do we have family values?” And we went through them, and like, “Well, what are we valuing in our family intuitively without even articulating it?” And we realized there were five core things that we saw as patterns in our family, that they’re the Cochrane family values, and we wrote those down.

And having those written down, even on like my phone or a Notes app, all of a sudden, made a lot of these decisions or other people’s opinions about what to do or what we should do, very simple, we’d be like, “No, this is what we value as a family, so we’re going to do this or we’re not going to do this because we’re going to prioritize this over this.”

So, I think having at least personal values, like five to seven, can make, when other people have their opinion, you can go, “That’s cool. I received that.” Even if it’s your mom or your best friend, and say, like, “I received that but these are my personal values. I’m going to hang onto these, and they’re going to kind of anchor me in the direction I need to go.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I love it. And you’re right, it can really accelerate things. What comes to mind, it’s so simple, but as an example of a decision, I had a buddy, and his brother, his family was trying to figure out, “Oh, should we join a club baseball team?” And it was just like all his friends are doing it. He really likes baseball, and it was just like, “Well, you’re not going to be getting a baseball college scholarship, and it’s going to be a ton of travel and expense and going all over the place, so we’re not going to do that.”

It was just like what I thought, “Oh, man, that’s going to be a really tricky decision.” It’s like the family was able to render it like super quick just because, “Having some fun baseball times doesn’t jive with our family values and what we’re up to, and for another family it might,” but you have those up front.

Graham Cochrane
Dude, such a great example. Yeah, that’s a great example. Yeah, dude, that’s real for us. Like, my daughter, she was doing dance for so many years, and she wanted to do competitive dances. It’s the same version as that, a lot of travel, lot more nights of the week. And she kept asking to do it, and we kept saying, like, “One of our family values is being home for dinner as a family every night, or most nights out of the week. And if we make this decision, then it interrupts that family value. You’ll be around maybe one night out of the week.”

And at the time, she’s like 11 or 12, and we’re like, “This is going to be the rest of your childhood.” So, it was tough for her, and we actually let her try it for a season so she could sense the feeling of it because she really felt called to try. And so, she tried it, she’s like, “Dude, yeah, we never have any time together.” We’re like, “That’s what we’re talking about.” So, it was easy for her to say, “Not worth it. Fun but not worth it because it conflicted with a value we had.”

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Well, tell me, any final things you want to share before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Graham Cochrane
Yeah, I would just say, like, this whole process, so trying to find yourself and be a rebel and do all this inner work, what I think I love about this, and a lot of people miss this, and I try to bring it home at the end of the book, is the whole point of doing this, it’s ultimately not about you. It’s for you, it’s a gift for you, and it feels so good.

Like, I’m always in the process of trying to let the real Graham come out to play and become more my true self. But ultimately, I think the reason you want to find yourself and become a rebel and live your authentic life is because someone else needs you to be you. 

You were designed on purpose for a purpose, and if you don’t show up as fully you, you can’t be the person they need you to be. We’re trying to be who we think we should be but, ironically, if you just be yourself, then you will have more impact and be able to serve more people in your sphere of influence because the real you is coming out to play.

So, that’s what I would just say, is do this work at some point. Whether you do the book or not, just do some of the exercises we talked about today because other people are depending on you, and it’s so much fun when you get to be fully you and it makes a difference in other people’s lives.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Well, now can we hear a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Graham Cochrane
My friend Rory Vaden has this great quote, and it’s stuck with me, “You’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were.”

Because you know those problems, you know those pain points, and you can speak powerfully into it, and that’s who you can mentor along the way. And I just love that line.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Graham Cochrane
It’s either Harvard or there’s another review, but it was a study of impostor syndrome on professionals, doctors, lawyers, finance people, that 73% of people in this so-called white collar high-professional jobs view themselves as an impostor, they don’t belong there.

I think it’s fascinating to me because I think, as a human nature, I’m like, “I’m not good enough. I shouldn’t have gotten this job. I don’t really know what I’m doing. I hope they don’t find out.” And I think that’s just very encouraging because it shows that all the people that you think are impressive, they’re actually like scared out of their mind to be doing what they’re doing half the time.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. And a favorite book?

Graham Cochrane
The Go Giver by Bob Burg and John David Mann. It’s a little parable about generosity changing this salesguy’s life. It’s just a beautiful book with a beautiful principle that’s very applicable, and anybody can benefit from it. You can read it in like an hour.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Graham Cochrane
I use Riverside. We’re using Riverside right now.

Pete Mockaitis
We sure are.

Graham Cochrane
I use it to film everything for my video podcast, to doing interviews. It’s just so helpful for all kinds of stuff, and it’s cloud-based and you can use AI to edit stuff. This is so fun.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Graham Cochrane
This is more of a process also, and that would be the 80/20 Rule, Pareto’s Principle. I’m always looks at “What is the 20% of the things I’m doing that are giving me 80% of the results?” Not to be more efficient to be a robot, but to realize, “Where is the waste in what I’m doing or how I’m doing? Could I get the same result or almost the same result with one-fifth of the effort or one-fifth of the time, and to free up my time and effort to double-down on that or do something more creative?”

So, I’m always using the 80/20 Rule, or 80/20 principle, as my favorite habit for just about anything in life.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that people really connect and resonate with; they retweet and they Kindle-book highlight and all the things?

Graham Cochrane
A lot of people, lately from Rebel, have been resharing the frustrations in life come when you’re living out of alignment with your design. And I think there’s just something there of like, if you’re frustrated, there’s external frustrations, nothing you can control, I get that. But a lot of our frustrations are self-caused, and it’s worth figuring out, “How am I wired? How was I designed? Because if I can figure that out and live in alignment with that, 99% of those frustrations go away.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Graham Cochrane
@thegrahamcochrane on Instagram is the only place I hang out online. Otherwise, GrahamCochrane.com for all the latest content, podcasts, and you can hang out with me there.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Graham Cochrane
Find someone to serve. Find a coworker, a boss to serve. Find out what they need. This is taking the Go-Giver principle, and just see if you can take something off their plate this week. These are tasks or a job you can take off their plate, like no strings attached. Don’t even mention, “I just want to do this for you.”

And only do it once. You don’t have to make it a habit. Just go give somebody something asking for nothing in return, and see if you don’t create more of a connection or a relationship that leads to other things down the road.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Graham, thank you.

Graham Cochrane
Dude, thank you, Pete. This has been fun.