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Finding Fit Archives - Page 8 of 11 - How to be Awesome at Your Job

May 07
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296: Working with a Recruiter 101 with Korn Ferry’s Julie Forman

By | Podcasts | 2 Comments

 

 

Julie Forman says: "Be confident, know what you're worth, what you can do, and where you can go."

Korn Ferry partner Julie Forman shares how to leverage recruiters and executive search consultants as you manage your career.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Pro-tips for becoming more visible to recruiters
  2. Do’s and don’ts when speaking with recruiters
  3. When a pay bump isn’t worth it

About Julie

Julie Forman is a Partner with Executive Search Firm, Korn Ferry International where she is a member of the Firm’s Global Industrial practice and Marketing Center of Excellence.

She joined Korn Ferry following a 15 years career with GE where she’s held senior roles on both the Industrial and Capital sides with her last position being Head of Strategic Marketing for GE in Canada.

She focuses today on recruitment and leadership consulting mandates for industrial organizations going through critical inflection points requiring upscaling of strategic capabilities, shift in focus and transformational leadership. She is a certified Six Sigma Black Belt and Change Management Coach.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Julie Forman Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Julie, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Julie Forman
Thanks, Pete. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited for this chat. And I’m curious to learn, first of all, since you’ve hunted many heads, recruited many people, how did you end up finding me?

Julie Forman
Well, it is through the beauty of LinkedIn. I was looking for some various leadership experts and your name came across. And I thought you had an interesting background, and just sent you a request to connect to keep you in my network. And you had started a conversation, which I happily took part of.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, it’s so fun because usually LinkedIn connection is just like, “Okay, cool”, and then maybe they sit there for a long, long time. But right away, you were so interested in engaging and shared some great tips. And I’m eager to dig in and share them with the broad world.

Julie Forman
Excellent. Well, I’m looking forward to that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, and I understand you’re often asked so I’ll ask as well. What made you leave GE where you were for quite a while and go on over to Korn Ferry?

Julie Forman
Well, so as a lot of people in the executive search business, sometimes some of them, they’ve grown up in the industry, others have come from management consulting, and others, like me, have had an executive career before. And in my case, although I loved GE and spent many years and had an awesome time, at one point, I live in Montreal and with the company’s evolution, there just weren’t anymore roles that I thought would be my next stop here. And so, I had to take the leap of faith and follow one of my ex-colleagues who I happen to love, and who sometimes knows me better than I know myself, and thought that this would be a perfect job for me, a perfect follow-on career. And he is right. It is great. It leverages a lot of the skills that sometimes I think I didn’t even know I had myself. So it’s a lot of fun every day, and I get to work with one of my great friends, so that’s an added bonus.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And I have great respect for Korn Ferry, and we had your CEO in episode 273. And I’m excited for our conversation because it sounds like you have shared a lot with people in terms of working with a recruiter 101.

Julie Forman
Yeah, for sure. One of the aspects of having had a corporate career before as myself when I switched careers, I didn’t realize how little I knew about the industry and how invisible I actually was. And so, as I go through working with different people, obviously I tend to work with C-suite and above, but I love working with up-and-coming talent as well and telling them how to leverage recruiters and executive search consultants, and how to think about it as you manage your career.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, maybe let’s start real basic from the beginning. You said “recruiters” and “executive search consultants” or “headhunters.” Are these terms interchangeable, or how would you orient us to the words themselves?

Julie Forman
So the industry’s pretty wide, and it’s one where there aren’t a lot of barriers to entry. So I think one of your previous guests had mentioned 16,000 executive recruitment firm placement agencies. Basically, when you look at the ecosystem, there’s two different models. There is the contingency model – basically being paid when you place a candidate, which tends to cater to more staff-level positions. And then you have the executive search group that is a retained model, so more closely aligned to management consulting, where we are tasked with building specific strategies, solving talent challenges for our clients. And so you will find different firms that focus on the different types of recruitment. Now, obviously there is overlap, but typically, the more senior positions will be on the retained model.

Pete Mockaitis
And when you say “retained model”, that’s just how folks get paid a flat monthly fee for your ongoing services?

Julie Forman
Well, as you can imagine, there’s a lot of different variation to that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Julie Forman
But it’s more like consulting. So, when you hire a consultant and you have them redesign your whole plant, whether or not you implement those changes, you still owe the consultant for the work. So it’s the same way we do, it’s the same thing in recruitment – there is that notion of upfront work. Now, obviously we wouldn’t be in the business if we didn’t end up placing people, so we tend to be very successful at finding what we’re looking for. But the idea is there.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And so, maybe we’ll start really basic. So why would a typical professional maybe not yet at the executive levels choose to use a recruiter? They might say, “Oh, we’re just putting another middleman in between me and the job.” Is that helpful, and why?

Julie Forman
Well, so typically, a recruitment, let’s say we talk about search consultant.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright.

Julie Forman
So search consultants — they work for the client, and that’s something that’s very important. So often, we get calls about candidates saying, “Well, I’m trying to work with a search consultant”, but actually, the model is where we’re hired by a client and we will find you in a sense.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright.

Julie Forman
When you are more earlier in your career, more of a professional level, then it is worth it to think about who I want to work with, because at a contingency level, a lot of the value that these consultants bring is knowing the candidates and being able to present them quickly to the clients, because there is that element of speed.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, and so then I’m thinking if I am a professional and I am getting some inbound requests or information from a recruiter, how do I know how to sift through that a little bit and know, is this someone who has really cool opportunities or not as cool opportunities? Or you just have to kind of get deeper into the conversation to know.

Julie Forman
Well, the first mistake that I always see people make, or most people make, is that they are on a search mode only when they are actually looking for something, when there are not happy, when they want to move. When in reality, the conversation about your career should be ongoing. So when you get these calls, when you get these opportunities to have a conversation, you should take them. Have a conversation, learn what is out there, learn what these firms are working on, get a sense for what clients are looking for in candidates. And always make sure that you know the market in which you are, so knowing which firms are the ones that you definitely should strike up a conversation when they call, and that you should get to know.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, and so there is a nice listing in a Forbes article that I’ll put in the show notes. Any other kind of resources you might recommend to get oriented a little bit to, who are the names, who are the players? And you said, “They’ll find you”, but if we want to find them, what should we do?

Julie Forman
Well, you mentioned it. So there is a list there, and those lists, and I think on the website you’ll share, there is both the professional recruitment and also the executive recruitment. Most of these firms will have an area where you can upload your information so that you are on their radar. So that is something that’s very important. The other part is also looking around you. So when somebody has a new role, ask them was there any headhunter involved, any placement agency, and try to get their feedback for the level of service that you felt, the experience that you felt as a candidate. And that’s something that’s really important – using your network.
But most of all, I think it’s about being receptive. Sometimes people feel that, “If I dare to answer a recruiter, I am breaching this loyalty I should have to my employer, and I will be tempted to do something that I do not want to do.” Well, that’s kind of not true, right? This is just about talking about your career opportunities that may or may not appeal to you. And it’s important to have those conversations.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.  Well then, how would one make themselves more findable? I understand there is a LinkedIn feature that explicitly says, “I’m open to chatting with recruiters.” Or what do you recommend?

Julie Forman
Well, LinkedIn certainly is something that a lot of people use, so making sure that you have a very professional LinkedIn profile. And there are tons of resources out there that explain how to do it, but that’s certainly a number one. And not just listing the title; it’s really giving an idea of what you’ve done, what you’ve accomplished – that’s really important. That’s certainly a first part. Making sure that your resume is up-to-date and ready, not just as though I’m going to write up my resume because you want to find a new job, but because you’re ready to, if you want to engage in something, that you have it ready and at hand.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, you said there’s a number of these LinkedIn resources. I’d love it if you could name one or two, and maybe just a couple of quick do’s and don’ts that you see all the time.

Julie Forman
Sure. So the first one is making sure that when you describe your position or the positions you’ve had in the past, you are not generic. A lot of people, they write their accomplishment or their responsibility in such a generic term that it could be anyone. And so it’s important that you think about, what is my value proposition, what have I done that is valuable to an employer, and how can I create, I’d say, the feeling that somebody wants to call you and learn more about you, because that’s what LinkedIn’s all about.
The other thing, make sure you have professional pictures. That’s always very important. Make sure that you have – if you’ve done any major transformation, any major initiatives you worked on, things that are very relevant in your industry, make sure you highlight it in your LinkedIn profiles because those are the things that are picked up. And never forget that LinkedIn is a keyword-based search engine, so make sure that whatever keyword you would see in a position spec that you would be interested in, that that is somewhere in your resume, so somebody can find it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so then it sounds like – we talked about generic versus specific, and the initiatives and transformations – that there could be a fair bit of content, a pretty hefty word count then on your LinkedIn profile. Any thoughts on how much is too much?

Julie Forman
Well, I think you need to put enough to be able to create the curiosity. You have to bring enough to distinguish yourself from others. Obviously, you don’t want to have a five-page LinkedIn profile, but you want to put enough. Most people do not put enough. It’s not clear the scope of their responsibility, it’s not clear what they’ve done. And it’s just not, I’m going to say “salesy” enough, right? But I would certainly advocate to put more than less, especially if you’re looking for a role.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.  So maybe, I don’t know, just to frame it a little bit – two or three bullets or accomplishments per role, or is that about the right amount?

Julie Forman
About two or three where you… And it’s important as well to say if you are leading a team, how many people are you leading; if you have a sales responsibility, give me a scope of how much; if for example you’re working in a specific vertical or industry, what is that experience; if you’ve worked with major clients, what are the types of clients that you’ve worked with; if you’re working in sales and you’ve done through channels, which channels do you know, because those are the aspects that clients often will ask for.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great. And I have advised many clients when it comes to, say, working on a resume, that numbers do really work wonders, in terms of if something is significant or large – what do you mean by significant or large? Can you put the millions of dollars or numbers of people?

Julie Forman
Yeah, exactly. Or somebody in finance that says on the resume, “I was responsible for closing the books every month.” Well, yeah. Whether they were closed properly or not, that tends to stay out.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, and I think that specifically for a moment, folks in accounting roles, I think, sometimes those resumes are kind of tricky to showcase some real results in terms of like, “We kept things moving well, and appropriately, and sensibly, and according to GAAP, and nothing broke.” It kind of doesn’t have as much of a flash or an enticing element as, “Discovered acquisition opportunity that yielded $200 million of transaction”, or something. So I’d love to get your take there, if that is the nature of your role and responsibilities, like you’re responsible for keeping things moving and operating and humming, as opposed to generating new explosive initiatives that are game-changing – any pro tips on that?

Julie Forman
Well, you probably hurt the feelings of a lot of accounting people out there.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m so sorry, accountants. I love my accountants, and you have skills that I often do not. And I value your contributions, all accountants out there. I want to make sure these accountants are getting their credit, their props in any way possible.

Julie Forman
Absolutely. I’m just kidding. But what may not sound exciting to somebody that is not in finance can be very exciting to somebody in finance. I think finance is one of those areas where nobody is looking for somebody who just stamps paper or closes the books. We’re always looking for people that add value, that are business partners. That’s what we’re looking for. Just calculating numbers and presenting them and making sure they add, it’s not value anymore.
So it really is about, when you think about your role, is how do I add value, how what I do every day distinguishes me from somebody else, and why would somebody want to hire me and not somebody else? And if you have no answer, I would say, change it. Do something. Think about how you can change it up. Challenge yourself to go above and beyond. And find those bullets that are going to go on LinkedIn and make a recruiter say, “Hey, I’d love to get to know this person because they’ve just done what my client is really looking for.”

Pete Mockaitis
I really like that turn of phrase there, “Find those bullets”, because that is powerful both in terms of representing yourself to the outside world, but also the internal representation for promotions and performance reviews and those kinds of things, is to proactively seek them out. And in college, I was a little bit of a… I was maybe a little bit of a prestige hound in the pejorative kind of interpretation of it, or a very shrewd strategic career planner in the kinder interpretation, because I was. I was thinking, “Okay, what is this bullet going to be that is going to sound awesome to impress McKinsey, or Bane, or BCG?”, because I was hungry and focused. That’s what I wanted post-college.

Julie Forman
No, managing your career is certainly about creating those experiences that are going to impress people. But more and more, managing a career isn’t something that’s linear. Before, it used to be you need to impress your boss, you need to impress your boss. But today, those people who are going to help you along and accelerate your career are all over. They’re everywhere. They’re your colleagues. They are your direct reports. They are everywhere. So it’s important that we stop seeing it as such a, “I need to impress my boss”, because that’s not what cuts it anymore.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, I’m with you there. So let’s say you’ve done some smart networking, you found some recruiters, or you’ve been found by recruiters by having an excellent LinkedIn profile that has the great keywords and great distinguishing accomplishments. What are some key things to think about, or goals to have in mind when you start having the conversations with these folks?

Julie Forman
So, it’s important to know what you’re all about, what you’re like, what you want to do, what you have been successful at, and what you want to develop. When you enter in a conversation, that’s the really important part. Too many people, they don’t think about it, and then they get pinged on an opportunity, and they’re just like, “Hey, it sounds fun. I’m just going to go there and explore it.” And they really don’t have the control of the conversation. So thinking about what you want to do is really important.
Another thing as well is what you want in your career, what you want in life. Every so often, you hear these conversations on, “You should not have your email during the weekend. At 6:00, close everything down.” But the reality is some jobs, you cannot do that. Whatever people say, I can guarantee you that does not exist. It doesn’t mean that you should do it. It means that if that’s a value, a preference that you have, then maybe those jobs aren’t for you and you should look elsewhere. And you could be successful doing something else. But understanding who you are and what you like is something that’s really, really important to find the career success that you want.

Pete Mockaitis
I think that’s a really good point there. It’s not just having a clear understanding of what you want, but also what you don’t want. And I have had some conversations with guests about establishing boundaries and that can take you so far. But as you said, in some roles that is just not going to fly, no matter how diplomatically brilliantly you engage in that discussion.

Julie Forman
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool. So then you’ve got some goals in mind, you’ve got some clear self-knowledge, and then you’re entering into the conversation. What are some maybe particular do’s and don’ts to think about as you are having conversations? You’ve got a relationship with a recruiter, and you are having some back-and-forth. Are there some things that people do that just are delightful to search consultants and just dreadful, like, “Oh my gosh, I hate it when people do this”?

Julie Forman
Well, so I’m going to talk from the perspective of a search consultant. It’s probably a little bit later in your career, although these apply to any level. The first part of it is really to engage in a conversation. You mentioned LinkedIn, and the reality is most of our sourcing, most of the way we find candidates isn’t LinkedIn. Most of it is our network, the network of consultants of the firm, and also, a lot of executives that we know and we ask them, “Hey, who do you know and how? I have this particular challenge. How would you tackle it? What kind of person do you think could tackle it? Do you know anybody?”
And so one of the things when you get into these conversations is to think about, first of all, “Is this something that I am qualified for, interested?” That obviously is the first question. And then if the answer is “No” to either of those questions, “How can I help the person? What do I know about the industry? How can I help, maybe with a contact, with an idea, with a place I would look?”, because that’s really important.
The other thing that’s really important is as a lot of management consulting happens, we’re not alone. So although I don’t do a lot of the work, the work is done by senior associates and research associates – all these awesome people who reach out to folks and who are often the first entry point.  And so make sure that you network with these people, that you are very kind and nice, and take their call and return their call. So that’s really important. Another point that is also something that we talk about and there’s a lot of different points of view, is salary. Do you answer when somebody asks you how much do you make?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, let’s hear that.

Julie Forman
That’s a big one. And there’s certainly a lot of different points. Salary, it has changed a lot. 30 years ago, 40 years ago, your salary – the salary you got from your job – often was your only source of revenue, and that kind of dictated where you were on the ladder of life. Today, you have people that have side jobs, and they create apps, and they have this, and they have that, so salary becomes one of the ways that you create wealth. And so I think that as a lot of things in these days, transparency becomes more and more, that you should find a way to figure out to test, how much do I make and how much does this job pay? And benchmark where you’re at, and think about it that way.
So, it really is a matter of personal preference and where you’re at, but obviously when you are in search and you call someone and you want to know, “Are we in the right ballpark? Does this make sense? Could we create an opportunity that would be compelling for this person?” So when people are super cagey, it’s not the best. And they don’t have to tell us, but they have to tell us what they want. And that’s the problem. The reason we ask for salary is people don’t know what they want. So it’s like going to a store and saying, “I want this. How much is this?” “Well, I’m not going to tell you how much.” It’s like, “Okay.” So it just doesn’t work. So either you say what you make, if it’s actually allowed, because a certain US state now prohibits it, or you say, “You know what? This is what I’m looking for. This is the range that I’m looking for.” And you have to have the confidence to say it.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. I’ve heard that tip shared and it resonated with me. When asked the question, “What are you currently being paid?” the appropriate answer is, “I am targeting a range between X and Y.” So it’s a little bit of a dodge, but I think it still accomplishes the goal you spoke of, is, “I need to know what works for you.”

Julie Forman
Absolutely. And you need to know how do you relate. And when you have these conversations, it’s a good time to ask, “Hey, I’m at this point. Does it make sense? What do you see?” Not obviously with everybody who calls, but when you’ve established that relationship, when you have this person you spoke to two or three times, and you’ve met them, you can ask. It doesn’t change anything. At the end of the day, whatever offer you get, you can say “No”. But the problem is people think that whatever is put in front of them, they just have to take it.

Pete Mockaitis
I think that’s very wise. And I want to dig a little bit more into – you said people don’t really know what they want. Could you be a little bit more specific, in terms of maybe precise questions within that realm of “What do you want?” that you often see people just don’t have answers to?

Julie Forman
Well, I think a lot of people, they start in a career, they get paid a certain amount, and they don’t talk about it at all. And so they have no idea whether or not they’re fairly paid for what they do. So, it’s about knowing, getting a little bit more information, educating yourself to know, “Okay, so what does an average role pay?” And sometimes getting a $5,000-$10,000 raise is not worth changing the job. But sometimes having that information helps you think about, or gives you the confidence the next time you’re in front of your boss and you need to negotiate that raise, knowing what is it that you’re worth out there, what are similar jobs paying. And it doesn’t mean you’re going to leave, but it means that you have at least that information.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. And I’d like for you to speak a little more to that. You say sometimes a 5 or 10K bump is not sufficient to exit. And I can think of many such reasons why that’s the case. Could you elaborate on some of the biggies?

Julie Forman
Well, so especially when you’re earlier in your career. This isn’t a sprint; it’s a marathon. So you need to think about what is it that you want to develop, where do you want to go, and what is the best environment to develop that? And is it worth $10,000 if you just leave what you have and go? Sometimes you’re not in the right environment and you need to leave, and you’re not going to reach your goals where you are, but saying that just money is enough to motivate a move is rarely the right decision. It needs to be a package.
So, getting back to your question – you have a support environment in your role, where they are coaching you to get to the next level, you’re in an industry that you’re passionate about, and you’ve worked many years to develop, let’s say a clientele, and it’s just starting to work out for you. That would be too bad to let that aside to go to something else. So there’s a lot of reasons, but typically, people know. You get that good feeling on whether or not you’re doing it for, really, the holistic value of changing, or really if it’s just the appeal of a little extra cash.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, understood. And I’d also like to get your take when it comes to, you said we’re looking at keywords and does it seem to have a fit based upon distinctive experience. I also want to hear from you in terms of, are there some things associated with attitude or demeanor or some sort of other universal things like, regardless of I am trying to find someone in marketing or finance or if it’s in airlines or high-tech, everybody loves a candidate who, blank. Could you fill in some of those blanks?

Julie Forman
So the number one attribute, I would say, is somebody who’s agile. And agility is about the ability to take everything you’ve learned in the past and kind of rearrange it to deal with a new situation. The reality is the world is unpredictable. Nobody knows what’s going to happen. There are shocks every day, and so you can’t be prepared for everything that is going to come in front of you. But you can be prepared in developing a lot of different skills and having that ability to put them together to face whatever situation’s in front of you. So that’s definitely one.
The other one that’s very popular, and for good reason, is authenticity. So the ability to really embrace who you are and who people are, and find your real strength, and knowing what you’re good at and what you’re not so good at. And that has a lot of different flavors, you can call it self-awareness, but that’s really important – knowing what it is that you can do and being upfront and honest about it.

Pete Mockaitis
And I can see how the authenticity piece, you can kind of get a quick gauge if you’re talking to someone, if they seem to say that they are great at everything, it’s like, “Maybe, maybe not.” But we’re not maybe getting the whole story or the full truth, in terms of seeing that self-awareness or that authenticity. I’m wondering from your vantage point, how do you get a read on if someone seems agile?

Julie Forman
Well, so that’s a good question. I think it’s when you speak to somebody and they talk about their background, there is a lot of creativity in how people approach problems and create solutions, and they’re always on the lookout for something new, something different. They’re not afraid of trying different things, and they’re not afraid of changing industries, or changing roles, or they see more of the positive than the potential challenge.
So that’s typically when somebody is very agile. Now, there is a scientific measure taken from it, and we could certainly measure it. Each time we do interviews and we meet with candidates, it’s really something that we measure. But on a high level, it really is that ability to be creative on how you tackle problems.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you got me so intrigued now. Scientifically measuring this agility, I know Korn Ferry has some tools, instruments, assessments along those lines, but from a mere conversation you’re getting a gauge and taking that into a number. How does that work, to the extent that you’re not disclosing super proprietary things here?

Julie Forman
No, so to get into levels and numbers, those are very complex assessments that are done, and so we certainly don’t do it by just a conversation. But I mean you get a feeling. I think it’s the feeling of when you think about those contests around the world and you’re a team of two and you have these challenges that you’re not too sure about. I think it’s Amazing Race. Well, who would you like to be on with Amazing Race? Who would you feel that whatever’s thrown at you, you will kind of manage it through? And it’s that feeling that we tend to look into in candidates, somebody who you would feel very safe in whatever situation, you know they’ll figure it out. And so we don’t come out of an interview with a number, I’ll tell you that much. It’s more of an impression.

Pete Mockaitis
That is a nice image there with the Amazing Race piece. Well, I guess now I’m thinking about in the consulting case interviews, in terms of we say, “Okay, we’ve thrown several business scenarios at you, where you’re able to crack them again and again.” And so, I’d be curious to hear in terms of, not to go too deep into interviewing, but when it comes to questions posed, are you seeing any kind of mistakes happening again and again that candidates can just easily avoid?

Julie Forman
Yes, definitely. So the biggest mistake that people tend to do is, they are not prepared. And they haven’t really been thoughtful about, once again, what is their value proposition, what are those great examples in their career that really showcase who they are and what they can do. And so what that creates is that when you’re in an interview, somebody will often spend too much time explaining the context, and then they get in the weeds, and there’s too many details. And they forget that this isn’t about the price of oil in 2012; this is about, what did you do about it?
So if you think about a minute, let’s say, or two minutes to answer a question, you don’t want to spend a minute and a half talking about context. You want to give it quick, have that elevator speech of, “This is what happened, this is the gist of it, and now I’m going to tell you what I did about it and that why I was amazing in this situation, why you want to hire me.” But most people haven’t practiced it, and that really shows in an interview.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, I also want to get your take here – you’ve recruited at multiple different levels of seniority for clients. Can you share some perspective in terms of what do you see those who are rising, they’re flourishing and seeing a really cool career progression. What sorts of, I don’t know, knowledge, skills, abilities seem to come up again and again? We mentioned the authenticity and the agility. Is there anything else in terms of themes you’re spotting?

Julie Forman
Definitely the ability to learn, and also the confidence of knowing, of being able to come out and meet with us, and have the conversation, and take the information, and really have that level of gravitas that we look for. So, gravitas is something that’s really tough to define. It’s tough to define, yet it’s so easy when you see it. And I think that one of the ways that you develop that is often by being surrounded by people who have great executive presence. But executive presence really is when you meet someone, and they have a good background, and they know how to conduct a conversation, and you feel like this person can handle a lot of challenges. That’s certainly something that we look for.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, beautiful. Well, tell me, Julie – anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Julie Forman
Well, I think it’s really going back to trying to develop the best that you can be. Many years ago, developing your career was about being the best. So if there were five vice presidents or five directors or five managers, you wanted to be the best manager to get the promotion to director, and then the best director.
Now things have changed. People come and go, there are no long-term careers anymore. So you need to make sure that you work on yourself to be a director, whether or not it’s a director in your company, whether or not you get your boss’s job, all you need to do is make sure that you are director-level. And if that position is not there, then you’ll get another position. And I think that really is a shift in mindset, where you need to work collaboratively with your colleagues, you need to make sure that everybody gets to be the best they can be. And at the end of the day, everybody’s going to win by doing so.

Pete Mockaitis
That is a nice final note there. So now, could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Julie Forman
Well, one of my favorite quotes is actually by a great Montrealer who died last year, Leonard Cohen. And he sang in one of his songs a verse that says, “There is a crack in everything. That is how the light gets in.” And I think that Leonard Cohen wasn’t somebody who spent a lot of time explaining how he came up or what anything meant, so it’s open to interpretation. But to me, it really means that there’s nothing you can’t crack, there is really an opportunity everywhere, and that once you find that little piece of light, that’s when everything gets better. So it’s the continuous pursuit through imperfection that you get perfection.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, excellent, thank you. And how about a favorite study or a bit of research?

Julie Forman
Well, study – I would say at Korn Ferry, as you mentioned, we have a ton of research. We have lots of information on executives that are successful and what makes them successful. So we’ve been looking at studies on what makes great Chief Marketing Officers and what distinguishes customer-centric leaders. And so we’re in a lot of that analysis right now, so certainly, if your listeners go on our website, shortly you’ll have all those findings.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, so it’s in process as we speak?

Julie Forman
It’s in process, definitely.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, cool, alright. And how about a favorite book?

Julie Forman
Well, I read so much for my job that I don’t think I have a favorite book recently, but what I’m going to suggest is a favorite podcast. I assume everybody listens to podcasts. It’s actually an HBR limited series called Women at Work. It is a six-episode that they ran about, I’d say, six months ago. And it’s a conversation between Amy Bernstein, who’s the editor, Sarah Green Carmichael, executive editor, and Nicole Torres, a younger associate editor. And it talks about issues that women face, but it is done in such a pragmatic way and away from the conciliation work and family that basically a lot of us are sick of hearing about. But it really goes into really more interesting and useful subjects, so I definitely recommend listening to those.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright. And how about a favorite tool?

Julie Forman
So a favorite tool, I would say… So I bought this nifty little whiteboard peel-off that I stuck on my desk, and tons of dry erase pens. And every morning I do my to-do list, and then I have the pleasure of just wiping it off as it goes through. And it’s great. At the end of the day, when you take that eraser and you just wipe it clean, you have a feeling of accomplishment. So hey, you take what you can, right? [laugh]

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I like that. I think that Caroline Webb of How to Have a Good Day, in a previous episode, really kind of emphasized that, in terms of when you are getting the pleasure of checking something off, maximize it. If it’s digital, it should have a big swoosh, or an “oink” noise, or a gray strikethrough, or a disappearing animation. And if it’s paper, it should be a big thick line through it. And you’ve taken it farther with the erasing – that’s cool. So you say a “peel-off.” What exactly does that mean?

Julie Forman
Well, so it’s a whiteboard material but it looks like a big sticker. So it’s the size of a sheet of paper, and you just stick it on your desk. So there is no way… I tried the notebooks, but then the notebooks, you forget. Papers, you have too many of it. This is just in your face, so if you decide not to strike something off your to-do list, then it’s on you.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. And does it actually stick to the desk?

Julie Forman
It does, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Julie Forman
Well, it’s removable, so if there’s any furniture-lovers out there, it’s not going to damage it. But it’s like $10. It’s actually really cheap on any place where they sell stationery.

Pete Mockaitis
And it’s held up. One peel-off has stood the test of time.

Julie Forman
It does, definitely. Absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool, alright. And how about a favorite habit?

Julie Forman
A favorite habit, I’d say, is going paperless. So I have my iPad and Apple Pencil, which I absolutely adore, because I can’t get into the habit of typing everything, I still love to write. And going paperless is something that’s really great for me. It allows me to carry all my notes everywhere, it keeps them confidential. And I think that’s really something that takes a little bit of getting used to but now makes for a much cleaner desk.

Pete Mockaitis
And can you write with an Apple Pencil and iPad as fast as you can with a normal pencil and paper?

Julie Forman
Absolutely. It’s even better, though, because you can download some documents and then just mark on them. So it’s great when you have resumes and you want to keep that for posterity.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, yeah, that works. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Julie Forman
I would certainly point them to connect with me on LinkedIn. So I love building my LinkedIn profile with great people. Also Korn Ferry, our website. Korn Ferry’s coming out with great tools for even people at all career levels, so it’s certainly worth it to go and have a peek. It’s called Korn Ferry Advance, so that really is a great tool that’s coming out. And that’s it. And watch out for Korn Ferry Institute, where we have tons of great research paper that’s backed from our experience, both on the research side, but also the pragmatic part of being in search and seeing talent every day.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Julie Forman
Yes, make sure you’re visible. Be out there, network. Even if you’re super happy in your job and you think this is the best in the world and you couldn’t be better, you never know what changes and you never know what’s out there. So be confident, know what you’re worth and what you can do and where you can go, and make sure that you can test that regularly on the market.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. Well, Julie, thank you so much for sharing this. I think that many folks have finally had this question demystified. So, very much appreciated, and keep doing the great work you’re doing.

Julie Forman
Excellent, thank you so much.

Apr 25
0

291: Deciding Whether to Stay or Go with Pete Mockaitis

By | Podcasts | No Comments

 

Pete Mockaitis says: "Which elements of work drive happiness for me?"

Pete inserts himself into the show format, sharing his approach to tackling your next career decision.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The 8 step-by-step questions that determine whether to stay or go
  2. Whether the grass is in fact greener
  3. Pete’s favorite things

About Pete

Pete Mockaitis is an award-winning trainer and coach who helps brilliant professionals perform optimally at work.

He’s delivered 1-on-1 coaching to over 700 leaders hailing from world-class organizations (such as Google, FedEx, the United Nations, Anheuser-Buesch, and Apple), 50 countries, and every Ivy League university. His work has been featured in numerous publications including the New York Times, Forbes, and Inc.

He began his career at Bain & Company and currently hosts the How to be Awesome at your Job podcast. The show receives millions of downloads from delightful people with excellent taste.

Pete lives in Chicago with his wife and new baby!

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Pete Mockaitis Solo Episode Transcript

I’m so fired up to dig into this stuff. I wanted to start by sharing a little bit about why is this something worth going after in the first place.

The reason is because I’ve done many coaching sessions with many folks and I found myself saying the same things kind of often and wondering, “Is this super cost effective for folks? Is there a better resource I might be able to point folks to?” At the same time I also found some gaps there in terms of the tools available or some questions I did not yet have great answers to and I had to dig in a little farther to come up with them.

Beyond that, in talking with listeners, it seemed like this was a strong issue that was recurring again and again for people, saying things like, “Boy, I have a stable job. It would be kind of stupid to leave. At the same time, I’m not really happy here. Well, isn’t that work? Is the grass really greener anywhere else? I don’t know. Oh, I wish I wasn’t so wishy washy. Oh I’ve got mortgage. I’ve got a family. I’ve got responsibilities. I shouldn’t entertain leaving, but at the same time I’m not happy here. But would it just be the same in another environment?” a whole lot of pain and consternation.

It’s a tricky question and one that cannot be answered with a quick Google search or an internet listicle and instead really requires going into some real depth. It has taken thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours to craft a course that can aid in this tricky decision.

I want to share with you some of the greatest hits, tidbits, and those eight key questions that unfold step-by-step in order to aid you if you find yourself in this trick spot, trying to make the decision.

I’m going to talk through each of these questions, which build upon each other one by one.

You might have a decision by the end of this podcast episode or at least have some great things to heat up to take further action and finally make some good practice if you’ve been stuck on the matter for a while. Let’s get into it.

The first question to consider here is what’s the ultimate goal. The short answer on that is arriving at a decision with clarity, with confidence, with conviction.

I’ve already had folks share with me as they’ve worked through some of the modules that they feel so much better about their current work because they just didn’t just have a knee-jerk reaction, they didn’t just focus in on the part of the job that they hate and sort of bemoan it and say, “Oh, this sucks. I want to be out of here,” but they realize, “Huh, after having taken a look around, I realize things aren’t perfect here and I want to try and make some improvements, but it’s not so bad.”

That’s a great victory right there, a decision that for now I’m going to stay and that’s cool. I’ve got some clarity, some confidence, some conviction around that, so that’s handy.

The ultimate guiding light I suggest in terms of how do you arrive at reaching such a decision is to do so based upon happiness. Some of my favorite quotes are that ‘happiness is the ultimate is the currency.’ We heard Gary Burnison say, “Start with happiness.” And that with Shawn Achor all the research when it comes to positive psychology, conveys that happiness is linked to performance and then is broadcast to others and impacts them and the work environment.
That’s the fundamental guiding light I suggest that you look at if you’re making this decision is to start there. That sounds kind of obvious, but the challenge is that a lot of times our thought processes get derailed by a lot of shoulds and buts before you even really get started thinking about it.

It can sound like, “But I’ve got a mortgage and a family. It would be irresponsible to quit. But I’m not going to find this kind of money at another job. I’d be kind of stupid to leave. But I feel guilty abandoning this important work that we‘re doing here. But I don’t want to lose these precious relationships I’ve formed. Maybe it’s just me.”
Or, “Maybe things will get better. Maybe I’m just not good enough. But I fear the unknown. How do we know if the next job is going to be any better whatsoever?” I give some quick take answers to each of these concerns if that’s showing up for you in an upcoming video that is going to speak to them. You can get access to that by going to DoIStayOrGo.com to sign up for such videos.

For now I’ll just make a quick point about the money. When it comes to, “I’m not going to find this kind of money elsewhere,” I just want to plant a seed that it’s very possible, if you think of happiness as the ultimate currency, to switch jobs and get a different job that pays less and for that to actually be an upgrade for you.

I’ve got a friend of a friend right now who is taking on a bigger position. There’s a whole lot more responsibility, a whole lot more stress and substantially more money and yet she is miserable. She’s been crying and she’s been begging to get a demotion and to be paid less money. That happens.

In the professional preferences assessment results only about 9% of folks had an upgrade in compensation as one of their top three happiness drivers. It didn’t make the top three out of 15 compensation for 91% of folks.

Interesting paradigm shift there. It’s not just about the best job is the one with the best money. No, no. It seems that in fact, in our experience, that is clearly not the case for the majority, but, nonetheless, it can be sort of lodged into the brain as the thing that is to be optimized and maximized above all else.

The second big question is which elements of work drive happiness for me. The short answer is it is a combination of 15 happiness drivers across the area of rewards, experiences, and demands. These really do vary substantially person by person which we’ve seen time and time again when folks do the assessment, which you can do at DoIStayorGo.com.

Now some folks are all about the compensation, the security, the advancement potential, the prestige. Others are more into the people stuff, the appreciation, the warmth, the purpose, the trustworthy colleagues. Others are more into the learning, the compelling tasks, the styles of alignment, the autonomy or the time load or the flexibility.

It really does vary person by person. But the tricky thing is because no job is perfect and all jobs have these tradeoffs, you’ve got this bundle of tricky decisions with everything in terms of well, what really is most important here.

What’s cool about the assessment is we take each of those 15 happiness drivers and they all square off against each other. You are choosing between time load and appreciation or compensation and purpose. They are all squaring off so you can see ultimately having made 105 little decisions the aggregate results of what that looks like in terms of stacked top to bottom.

It can be pretty powerful and eye opening for people. We had a great kind, encouraging word from Jenny who said, “Wow, Pete, you’ve done it again. So many of the nagging desires that have been swirling around my head for years are now laid out neatly on your bar graphs.” Cool. Well, I’m so glad that was working for Jenny and for many others who have taken that.

It’s still available for free, so check that out. It’s at DoIStayOrGo.com, the assessment. Pretty cool stuff that can spark a whole boatload of clarity in a hurry and cut through a lot of the morass that might be in your head right now.

The third question is, is that grass really greener elsewhere. The short answer is a definite maybe. The scoop is it really goes both ways in terms of some people they are in their jobs and they get so caught up with the thing they don’t like when they stop and take a look and see, “Hm, how does this opportunity really stack up against alternatives.” You see, “Hey, it’s actually not so bad.”

Other times it goes just the opposite way in terms of folks are so accustomed to the toxic bad stuff that’s going on they think, “Oh yeah, this is just normal. This is just what work’s like.” Then you take a look around, it’s like, “Oh my gosh, not at all is that the case.”

Here we borrow a little bit of a page from Consumer Research in terms of saying for like a given brand, what are the most important features associated with it and then how is one brand performing on that.

If we were looking and comparing say fast food companies together, we’d first determine for consumers how important all the different factors like speed, health, cost, the freshness, the customization, the clean environment of the restaurant. Then we’d also take a look at and how well does this particular restaurant do, McDonald’s versus Wendy’s versus Burger King to kind of get a lay of the land and see where should we focus.

Likewise we do the same with happiness drivers in your current job versus others, and getting a little bit of benchmark context to say, “Okay, well, what’s this look like elsewhere,” and some fun facts like for learning. Well, 32% of people have a mentor at work.

For the alignment of work styles, about 52% of folks say their meetings are effective. For time load, well, hey, we’ve got quite a range with 13% working 7 or fewer hours in a day and 13% working 12 plus hours a day and then the bits in the middle you can see.

By getting a little bit of that context and then doing a rating, you can see, “Okay, on the dimensions that really matter for me, how is my job stacking up?” If it’s not stacking up so well as compared to what’s out there, you’ve got your answer. Yup, that grass is substantially greener elsewhere or, “Oh hey, it looks like we’re doing okay after all.”
The fourth question is how can I improve right where I am. The short answer here is by changing either your mindset or your extracurricular activities outside work there or reshaping the work situation itself.

You can make a world of difference giving yourself a boost in these areas of happiness drivers if you 1) just think about things differently. For example, instead of thinking about how this is all bull crap that you have to deal with all this stuff, reframing to who is this helping and serving and how and that can spark something.

Or when it comes to extracurricular activities, if you feel like you’re not getting enough purpose or warmth in your work environment, well, you can find that elsewhere, whether that’s volunteering or making more of a special effort associated with seeing your cool besties and getting those exchanges going.

Or when it comes to reshaping the work environment, talking about pushing back diplomatically, tactfully, how to make that happen successfully as well as prudently and shrewdly assessing are things likely to change here if I take a lay of the land and see how feedback requests and suggestions and those sorts of things have gone historically. We can just get a bit of a lay of the land for how that works.

Having established those three strategies, we then look to applying them across each of the 15 happiness drivers to generate over 100 starter ideas for inspiration. Just to zero in on one or two that you can truly commit to do to improve your work situation happiness right then and there.

One of my favorites is when it comes to compelling tasks, you can actually just proactively swap tasks with someone else at work. We heard this tip from Lisa Cummings in the Strengths episode. If you can zoom in on, “Hey, I like this and I’m strong at this and you like that and you’re strong at that, why don’t we just quietly, informally do a little switcheroo?” It’s a fun win-win for everyone there.

That’s just one idea. Maybe that works, maybe it’s doesn’t. But after cruising through the 100 and pondering you’re on, you come up with a few things, one or two at least, that will really make a world of difference for boosting your happiness right then and there in your current work environment.

The fifth question we tackle is what would be the most amazing work ever. The short answer to get there is we first release some constraints to thoughts. Secondly, we kind of dig deep into your youness and what makes you tick. Third we do a quick assessment for is that thing likely to be so amazing.

For releasing your constraints, often before an ideation, a divergent thinking, brainstorming process even get started, we tend to short change our self, like well the job has to have at least 80,000 dollars or it has to be in this location.

We go through a little bit of an approach for breaking that down which includes, thinking through well, why must that be the case, is that a valid value underneath the why and is there an alternative means of satisfying that. It’s kind of cool what can come up in terms of alternative means so that you feel a bit freer to dig and really think about what would be the coolest work experience ever.

From there we dig into your psyche, your personality, your youness asking provocative questions like, “What did you like to do as a kid? What made you weird as a kid? Describe your ideal day from top to bottom and how does that fit into it? If you think about some of the greatest days of work, what made them the greatest days of work?”

Getting that introspection going to see what is potentially an opportunity that would have all the cool goodies and lots of it and then to take a quick look and say, “Well, is that likely to really be the case or is that a fantasy land,” and just consulting the crystal ball or the time machine if you will by just imagining yourself in that scene. What do you see?

Getting a quick sense for what a day in the life looks like via some research approaches and just getting yourself, “Why was this the most amazingly awesome perfect decision ever and why was this a terrible decision? What did I overlook?” or, “What must be true for this to be a good move? Then how can I test that?”

We get a real quick sense for loosening up, coming up with the coolest work experiences you can conceive and then taking a quick look, “Huh, is that for real? Is that likely to be the case?”

The sixth question is who really has the answers about whether or not an alternative opportunity could be superior. The short answer is interesting, helpful people at interesting organizations. Here we talk all about how do we surface such interesting organizations and then people within them.

This is fun and I get to get dorky and tactical looking at databases and listings and services there, whether it’s the Hoovers’ Avention Dun & Bradstreet, … database that can surface all kinds of different organizations from different industries or it’s using GuideStar Foundation Center along the lines of NTEE codes to find the coolest nonprofits who are getting grants and are large and growing and substantial.

Or whether it is getting jiggy with the lists from the Fortune 500 or the Inc. 5,000 or the TechCrunch, Crunchbase …. Oh wow, there’s so many cool organizations out there I had never even heard of. They’re doing exactly what I want to do and have money and are growing.

Those kinds of things can be rather intriguing. It’s like oh well, then once you find them, how do I find the specific people who are there using things like a Tweeple search in the Twitter bios, like, “Oh, hey, here’s somebody who works there and says right in their bio that they work there and freely tweets things associated with it. Maybe they would be open to a conversation.”

Or getting jiggy with some LinkedIn approaches to surface folks and then related folks and your connection to those folks. Getting some specific names here associated with “Well, there is a person right there whose name is John Smith or whatever who would actually have an answer for me.” Then we end there by having a list of great names at great organizations.

The seventh question is how do I get such people to talk to me. The short answer is by finding their contact information and sending them an optimized digital message.

For finding their contact information, there’s a number of interesting tools such as Hunter.io, which will tell you specific names and emails associated with a given domain or URL or even just the structure. Is it first initial dot last name? Is it first name last name no dot? Is it first name dot last name? You kind of cut through that ambiguity, so you’ve got just the one.

Then we talk about what is the optimal message to send and some principals associated with making it super short, super easy to say yes to, and then some encouragement that even if you don’t have the optimized message, your response rate will be pretty good.

I share the full text of an email or LinkedIn message I got from someone who was asking about consulting, which was okay. I don’t think it was an optimal message. I provide some thoughts for how to tweak it.

But what is intriguing was this dude, Casey, ended up taking very close careful notes associated with what responses he was given when he was requesting total strangers to chat with him about career stuff. Casey’s results were that 28% of the time, total strangers agreed to say, “Oh yeah, sure. Let’s have a coffee. Let’s have a chat. Let’s discuss your career stuff and I will give you free advice along those lines,” which is pretty cool.

Over one and four complied and he had done this reaching out hundreds of times. One dude’s decent, acceptable cold message got the job done over one in four times.

I think that’s really helpful in terms of if you are reaching out to many folks, some of them will talk to you and they will give you the time. Then you just ask them the optimal questions that matter the most to you given your happiness drivers and you start to paint a picture for how these options are looking for whether you stay or you go, which is looking like a rosier, happier scenario.

The eighth and last question is what is the final answer, synthesizing it, putting it all together. This is fun. We consult both the hard data and the heart date, a turn of phrase I heard from a client I really liked.

The hard data is we put together this spreadsheet which is pretty cool in terms of figuring out a couple things. One taking a stab at quantifying your happiness at a given opportunity based upon your happiness drivers and how highly a given opportunity rates on each of those 15 happiness drivers. We can sort of consolidate that into a rough aggregate happiness number.

Also, a cool number called a give per take ratio in terms of jobs vary wildly in terms of the compensation they deliver as well as the time, the sheer hours they demand of you both on the job and commuting and maybe some extra expectations for social functions or whatever.

When you put it all together with the commute, and the compensation, and the value of the bonuses and your tax rate, and all that stuff, what is the give per take, the wealth created per hour demanded for a given job?

If you look at those side by side alongside the happiness drivers, you get sort of a hard data, a quantitative view for, “Hm, my current job looks awesome compared to these other things,” versus, “Wow, it is really falling short if I look at the projected happiness number as well as just what I’m getting for the time I’m investing there.”

Then we consult the heart data, what seems good and right and true for you in your intuition, in your gut, in your belly. We’ve got a number of really cool approaches to get a quick read on that.

One of my favorite little ones is – and don’t skip right to this. I think that it’s best done once you’ve sort of taken a good clear look around is you flip a coin and when you flip that coin, you can say, “Okay, heads I’m going to stay here, take it head on and tails is they’re going to see my tail as I walk out the door and say goodbye.”

You decide, “Okay, heads I’m staying, tails, I’m leaving.” You flip the coin, you turn it over and here’s a trick. Rather than look at it, see which one you are hoping for it to be. That tells you something.

Anyway, that’s just one fun little trick associated with consulting intuition and getting a sense for what’s deep down there. We’ll talk about a few other approaches for tuning and listening in to see what you see there.

Once you consult the hard data in the spreadsheet and the heart data deep inside, you’ve got a pretty clear sense. This is sort of what needs to happen. I am going to stay. I’m going to make the most out of it in these key ways or I’m going to begin pursuing opportunities in A, B, and C.

Even though you don’t have a job in hand yet there’s huge power in the decision and the conviction, in the clarity and the confidence that’s happening right then and there. Either way you win, whether you stay or you go by methodically working through these key questions.

Again, if you want some extra goodies here, you’ve got DoIStayOrGo.com. I’m releasing three videos shortly to discuss this and then inviting you to enroll into the course. I hope you dig it, whether you choose to enroll or not, this content is handy for you and it’s something you can reference back when the indecision is getting a little bit more intense and you’re starting to wonder all the more frequently.

That’s my story here. Now I’ll share a few of my favorite things, turn the tables a little bit.

For favorite book, I’m going to go with How to Have a Good Day by Caroline Webb. We also had her on the program and I like that it seems like she shares stuff that makes a lot of good sense, like, “Yeah, that makes sense,” she shares the research associated with it like, “Oh yeah, that checks out,” and she shares a very simple implementable step-by-step approach to tackling it and it’s all about how to enjoy a day of work more.

I’ve got many, many favorite books. I think this one is particularly applicable to the topic du jour and very enriching. I’ll say that one. I’ve been listening to it on audio and I’m thinking I just have to buy the real thing because there are so many notes and flags I want to highlight and underline that the audio alone is not doing it for me.

For a favorite quote I’ve got, “I cannot give you the formula for success, but the formula for failure is trying to please everybody,” by Herbert Bayard Swope.

I find that quote so helpful for me when I get a little bit hung up in terms of, “Uh oh, someone probably doesn’t like this.” Because I guess I am a little bit of a people pleaser and I do love feedback and sometimes I take it a little more personally than is super helpful.

I was actually recently even in a Subway, the sandwich shop, and I started to feel a little bit weird or bad or guilty because of the person behind me in line I thought, “Uh oh, I’m taking too long in selecting all of my condiments,” because I kept getting all of the stuff: the lettuce, and the spinach, and the tomato, and the green peppers, and the oregano, and the parmesan, and the pepper, and then the – I put a lot of things on.

I was like, “Oh boy, she’s probably getting irritated with me because I’m getting so many things. Oh, I feel bad about that.” It’s sort of funny. It’s like wait a second, Pete, that’s quite silly. First of all, she probably didn’t even notice. She’s probably focused on her own stuff. Secondly, that’s just sort of how sandwich making works in Subway.

This has been a source of a helpful reminder and touchstone for peace that trying to please everybody is a recipe for failure as well as recipe for anxiety I would say because it’s impossible and counterproductive to what your ultimate aims for true success will be for you.

For favorite study, I’m really in to the Walter Mischel Marshmallow Test. If you haven’t heard of it, that’s when the children were presented with a marshmallow or tasty treat of sorts, maybe it’s an M&M or a Reece’s Pieces or whatever, but it doesn’t matter, only that it is tempting and interesting to them.

The rules of the game go if you’d like, you can eat that any time you want, but if you hold out and wait for up to 20 minutes, when the experimenter comes back, you may receive two of that treat. It’s all about self-regulation, self-discipline, can you handle the wait.

Go figure, they discovered that the children who could handle the wait and were able to self-regulate and go the distance to get the two treats had all sorts of other positive life outcomes whether it comes to schooling or other things.

Very impressive how that little indicator tells so much. Also very interesting how it’s quite possible to build these skills.
He said that some of the strategies the high-performing children used in order to wait included, looking elsewhere, playing a game, covering their eyes, and what wasn’t such a winning strategy is looking very closely at the marshmallow, maybe tasting the powder off of your finger, smelling it deeply and repeatedly, sort of that was contrary. Environment shaping maneuvers you have available to you are powerful.

My favorite habit is something I do almost every morning and it is sort of like a multi-mega habit that merges a few things into one. That is I like to do a nice walk, usually on my treadmill, sometimes outside or sometimes just back and forth in my home.

I like to do a good walk for about 30 minutes in the morning and while drinking my Klean Kanteen 27 ounce bottle, while also getting some bluelight exposure in terms of whether it’s outdoors or with this Philips blue light device that I use. Also, engaged in prayer.

I particularly like to be thankful and express thanks for sort of the five great things that happened in the last 24 hours because there’s cool psychology research pointing that to putting you in a more appreciative, and grateful and positive mindset, as well as some other areas of coverage there.

It’s really great to in the first half hour of the day to get all of these things going. It upgrades my body from, “Oh, I’d kind of really rather still be asleep,” to, “Oh boy, let’s get after the day. What’s next?”

For a favorite tool, I’m going to have to say OmniFocus. I think it is super handy. It is a task management application that is so powerful, robust and full-featured. What’s cool is how I can ubiquitously capture anything anywhere in the app.

It is right on my homepage. I can push it, put it in there, include a photo, include an audio description or just make a Siri command to add an OmniFocus item and then from there it’s in my OmniFocus inbox, which can be processed associated with the context or the project and the deadline and then reviewed. It’s so cool.

I never miss anything cool when someone says, “I read a really interesting book,” it’s like, what is it? Bloop, then that’s there for later processing. I can continue the conversation, capture it, and then later on go investigate, “Oh, is that a book I should read?” Yes or no and make a good decision.

I’m having a world of fun with that as well as in the mornings for creative time it’s cool to see, “Oh there’s my OmniFocus inbox,” a bunch of random, cool ideas I had or suggestions I heard, which brings just a lot of richness to life in terms of in that creative time for me in the morning, here’s some creative seeds that I collected previously and let’s see what happens. It makes it kind of fun.

Favorite way to be contacted? Anytime, please. What are you thinking about the show, feedback, tips, suggestions, stuff you want to hear? Pete@AwesomeAtYourJob.com.

Parting challenge or call to action, I just encourage you, don’t accept just the default state when it comes to your job situation. Take a quick glance and think through, “Is this really the optimal spot for me in terms of happiness.” Not to spark discontent within you but just to make sure that you’re making a contentious decision as opposed to just reverting to the default, which is continuing to do the thing that you’re doing.

A great first step to that is to visit DoIStayOrGo.com. Take that assessment to see which of your happiness drivers is top for you, and then think through “How’s my job doing on these. You know what? Pretty darn good.” Awesome. You can feel good and just be grateful for that’s where it is.

Or, “You know what? There are a few things that are very important to me that this job is falling quite short of. Maybe I should start thinking a little bit more in depth about if it’s time to look around and explore that do I stay or go in a bit more detail.

That’s what I got. I look forward to catching you on the next episode. It is Oren Jay Sofer. I discovered him from the Simple Habit Meditation app and he just I think has got some little distinctions, some nuances about this mindfulness, this meditation stuff that are well worth hearing to bring a little bit more peace, a little bit more compassion, a little more ability to focus with intention with what you’re up to.

I hope to catch you there and peace.

Mar 14
0

273: Taking Control of your Career with Korn Ferry’s Gary Burnison

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Gary Burnison says: "Be indispensable to somebody else, and find your purpose."

Korn Ferry’s CEO Gary Burnison talks about the importance of learning agility and areas to consider when evaluating a potential job offer.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Which skills predict success–and which are 200X harder to develop than others
  2. New rules of thumb on timelines that suggest “job hopping” vs “getting stale”
  3. Why happiness is central to your career strategy

About Gary

Gary D. Burnison is the Chief Executive Officer of Korn Ferry, the preeminent global people, and organizational advisory firm. Korn Ferry helps leaders, organizations, and societies succeed by releasing the full power and potential of people. Its nearly 7,000 colleagues deliver services through Korn Ferry and its Hay Group and Futurestep divisions. Mr. Burnison is also a member of the Firm’s Board of Directors.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Gary Burnison Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’d love to start if we can hear a little bit about you and surfing. I understand you use that as a metaphor for many things. Are you also an active surfer in the literal sense?

Gary Burnison
In the literal sense for sure, dude. [laugh] Look, I was raised in Kansas – a long way from where you can actually surf, but in Los Angeles it is… Yeah, you can surf. And it’s kind of my philosophy on life that people get a certain number of waves – maybe some big, some small – and the whole trick is figuring out which ones you ride, how long you stay on, when you bail. And I think life and careers are much like that.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear you, yeah. And so, just to orient listeners here – I’ve been a fan of Korn Ferry for a good while, and fun fact – the birth of the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast came from me just shamelessly looking at the bibliography of the book For Your Improvement, and cold out reaching to hundreds of those authors. And then some said “Yes”, and now – well, they say “Yes” more easily and they come to me, which is a cool situation. So thank you for the great work you do in the organization. But could you orient those unfamiliar what’s your company all about?

Gary Burnison
We’re a global organizational consulting firm, so our purpose is to help organizations and people exceed their potential. We’re couple of billion dollars in revenue, we’re all over the world, we’ve got 8,000 employees. And the sole purpose of the company is to improve other companies through their people, through their organizational strategies, how they develop people, how they motivate people, how they pay people. That’s what we’re about.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. And so, I want to talk most of the time about your book Lose the Resume, Land the Job. But first, I’ve got a couple of tricky ones I want to make sure we’ve got a moment to hit right upfront. And one of them is something I’ve been wrestling with, and others in the Learning and Development industry. I’ve got the Korn Ferry book For Your Improvement open, there’s an appendix called A Developmental Difficulty Matrix, which is a cool graphical representation that shows a number of competencies ranked from hardest to develop to easiest to develop.
And so, I had a buddy of mine in the Learning and Development industry get into a little bit of a scuffle with someone who said, “Hey, wait a minute. That sounds a little bit like a fixed mindset. That’s blasphemous”, to say that some competencies are super hard to develop and thusly you should just hire for them upfront. So how do you square the notions of, you want to be a learner, which is awesome, and a growth mindset is helpful, versus your hard resource that shows some competencies are harder to develop than others.

Gary Burnison
Look, it’s nature versus nurture, right? So it’s an age-old question: Were you born to be a great baseball player, or did you do the right kinds of things, to coaching along the way? It’s one of those things that it’s kind of like, does God exist? To find the ultimate answer is very, very hard. We have a ton of research behind it, but I will tell you that just my practical experience – I’m CEO of a public company, I’ve been the CEO for 11 years. Korn Ferry has done decades of research on this.
It is absolutely true that some skills are much harder to develop than others. And what I would tell you is that in my simple world there’s a left brain and there’s a right brain. And the left brain, for purpose of our conversation, is very analytical, it’s very kind of black and white. The right brain is a whole different world. And as you move up an organization, I would say the number one predictor of success that Korn Ferry has studied in CEOs all over the world, is learning agility. But as you move up, you have to make that transition from your left brain to your right brain, and it is not easy.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so a couple of things. What precisely do you mean by “learning agility”?

Gary Burnison
Knowing what to do when you don’t know what to do. And so the more situations that you’re in where you have failed, the better are your chances for success in the future. And so what happens is as a CEO, as a leader – doesn’t have to be a CEO – but you’re always going to be in situations that you’ve never been in before. And that could range the whole gamut of possibilities, from being personally sued to dealing with the things that you read about in the papers today around a workplace environment – all of those things you’ve probably never experienced. And guess what? As the leader you can’t say, “I don’t know.”
And so you have to inspire confidence to the organization about where it’s headed and how it’s going to punch through that opening in the sky when it’s a very, very cloudy day. So the right brain is really all around how you connect with others, how you inspire others, how do you get people to wake up without the alarm clock? That is something that has to be learned over time.
And so as we’ve studied people, and you’ve referenced the research that we’ve done – when you start out, and it could be out of high school or out of college, you’re basically a follower. And what you’re going to be doing is going to be very repetitive, and it’s going to be very action-oriented. You’re going to be making rapid, quick, repetitive decisions. But as you progress – and this is the question you were asking – as you progress, that becomes totally reversed. And so you do not, as a CEO or a leader, you don’t want to make rapid decisions. You want to be reflective, you want to be a complex thinker, you want to have Plan C for Plan B for Plan A – almost the polar opposite of somebody starting out in the workforce.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I’ve got a Marshall Goldsmith book title leaping to mind here – What Got You Here Won’t Get You There. So that’s helpful to lay that out. And so, when we talk about some competencies being harder to develop than others, is it like they’re twice as difficult to develop, or is it like 200 times as difficult?

Gary Burnison
Like 200, yeah. So it is this very, very easy to motivate yourself. I shouldn’t say it’s very, very easy. It’s not easy for everybody, but it’s relatively easier to motivate yourself. Now, if you have to do that to five other people, if you’ve got to do that to 50 other people, if you’ve got to do that to 5,000 other people – becomes much, much harder.
Take a simple task, like let’s say you’ve got five friends over and you’re going to go to dinner. And one likes Mexican food, one loves Chinese food, Indian food. You’ve got a whole range of gamuts, and as the leader you’ve got people that have different motivations, they have different self-interest, and they’ve got different tastes in where they want to go to dinner. And so what you’ve got to do is anchor that discussion on where you’re going to dinner in a common purpose and get everybody to agree that we’re going to go have the Happy Meal at McDonald’s.
That is not an easy thing, just with five people figuring out where they’re going to go to dinner. But if you then expand that range of thinking and possibilities to 50 people, 500 people, around strategies to enable a company to succeed, or an organization to succeed, just think about how much harder that actually is.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, certainly. So the feat is certainly way, way more challenging. And I guess I’m wondering from a competency-development perspective, are you saying that some competencies such as managing conflict, that are in the hardest area, as compared to being tech-savvy or action-oriented on the easiest area – those are 200 times as hard to develop, the harder ones?

Gary Burnison
Oh, for sure. There’s no question about that.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright.

Gary Burnison
And it’s something that, again, a textbook can help, but there’s no substitute for… I can remember the first time my dad pushed me on the bicycle. And so I remember the exact moment as clear as day, and that feeling – there’s nothing like it in the world. And so at Korn Ferry, what we found again through research is when it comes to development, we believe in 70/20/10. In other words, only 10% of your development once you leave your college is actually going to come from the classroom; but 90% is going to be on your assignment or assignments and who you’re working with, and who you’re working for.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And I want to go there next. We recently had a guest, Carter Cast from Kellogg Business School, and he was a lot of fun, had some great thoughts about career derailers. And he cited a Korn Ferry study, in which managers ranked their own level of skill at competencies, and they had ranked dead last the competency of developing talent, or developing direct reports in others. So, I thought that was pretty striking, and I’m wondering in a world where 90% of learning is kind of happening right there on the spot, on the job, with interactions with boss and others – how do you become, as you say, a learn-it-all effectively, in that undesirable context?

Gary Burnison
I think the other thing is you want to mirror it all. So it is true that most people in all the research we’ve done would not describe themselves as high in terms of developing others. And I think that’s the responsibility of any great manager or leader. It’s much like raising your kids. And I think it’s so much easier to mirror the behavior that you want to see in others, rather than telling people what to do. And so I think that developing others is a little bit like networking. Networking, which we talk about in the book, is really about the other person. It really starts with the other person. And I think that the concept of developing others is not a “tell me” type situation, it’s a “show me” type environment.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so then, if you’re on the more junior side of things, I suppose that’s great advice for those who are doing the mentoring and trying to grow and develop those they’re leading. I guess I’m wondering if you are the leadee, the follower in this relationship and you’ve got a boss who fits right in there, in terms of being on the lower side of being able to develop the direct reports in others, what are some of your best options and career moves to keep that learning going?

Gary Burnison
I think in this… Look, the world is changing, and so Millennials today are probably going to work for 30-35 companies. I’m a Baby Boomer, I will have worked for five. So, the reality of today’s world is it’s not hierarchical anymore; it’s very lateral, and you will be making many, many job moves. When I was younger that was a big negative – you were called a “job hopper”. Now actually we look at resumes and we actually have the opposite view. If you’ve been at one company for a long time, the question is are you stale, can you adapt to new cultures? So it’s going to be very common for people to work for different companies.
I would also say that a truth is that people leave bosses, they don’t necessarily leave companies. And one of the mistakes, even in Millennials and people that are going to have many more career experiences and employers, is that they automatically jump for the wrong reason, and they think the grass is greener, maybe they hate their boss. The truth is, you can actually learn more from bad bosses than you can from great bosses.
And we can all think about our mom or dad, or aunt or uncle, or elders in our life. And how many times have we said to ourselves when we were a kid, “I’m never going to do that to my kid. I’m never going…” And so that very, very basic kind of instinct in human nature is the same one that actually applies in work. And so I believe you can actually learn from a bad boss. I’m not saying you shouldn’t take control, but I would first say embrace it and learn from it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that’s helpful. And I want to follow up quickly on the point about job hopping, and now it’s sort of the opposite. So you have a unique vantage point, and I’d love to get your view for what is the amount of time… I guess it varies a lot, but in terms of how many years you think, “Huh, that’s kind of short and concerning”, versus how many years you say, “Ooh, that’s kind of long and it’s concerning”?

Gary Burnison
Yeah. Look, I’m going to back to happiness. And we can talk more about this as we get into it, but I think it’s got to be paced by your happiness. However, when you put a clinical view of it, perception over reality view of it, today if I look at a resume and the person is there a year, less than a year, maybe slightly over a year – I’m going to raise questions. If they’ve been there kind of two years, two years plus – I’m cool. And so that’s kind of I think a pretty good rule of thumb today. In today’s world it’s very lateral – not ladder, not very hierarchical.

Pete Mockaitis
And on the flipside you mentioned if they’re there too long, you wonder are they stale and maybe not as adaptable.

Gary Burnison
Yeah, isn’t that amazing? It’s so amazing how that switched in my career. Absolutely true. And so, when I start to look at it and I’m kind of like 10, 15 years, kind of plus, those questions are coming into my mind. Ten years I’m okay, but kind of when it gets into the 15 I start to wonder, can they adapt to a new culture?

Pete Mockaitis
And that’s 15 years at the same company.

Gary Burnison
Job. Same company. They’re not the same position, but the same company.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, then I think maybe there’s another point, like if you’re in the same position… I come from strategy consulting Bain & Company, where it’s up or out, but I guess in quote-unquote “normal” industries…

Gary Burnison
See, that’s the other thing that people don’t necessarily recognize, is that… So when I look at a resume I’m going to spend literally, I bet I spend 20 seconds. And what I look at is a couple of things. I look at career progression, and I think most people, whether it’s overt or covert, that’s what they’re looking for.
So in other words, they want to see that from the time of college to the most recent, that you’re actually progressing, in terms of scale, scope and size – what I would call “the three S’s”. And it very much is an S-curve. So we’re going to want to see that you’ve taken on more scale, bigger teams, more complexity, in other words you’re being promoted. So it could be the same company, but if you’re in the same position for that whole time at that company, that’s probably going to be viewed as a negative.

Pete Mockaitis
Right, yeah. So when you say “that amount of time”, it’s like 10 years?

Gary Burnison
Yeah, if you’re kind of in the same position… Because again, we’re going to come back to say the number one predictor of success that Korn Ferry would say, is learning agility. It’s just curiosity, right? Curiosity in terms of music, in terms of what you read, the whole deal. And we actually test for that.
And then if you believe that you’re learning through others and you’re learning on the job – well, if you’re doing the same thing you’re just exercising the same muscle. So it’s a little bit like going down to the gym – well, if you keep doing pull-ups and that’s all you do – well, one part of your body is going to be disproportionate to the other part. So in terms of a more holistic exercise routine you’re going to want to exercise many more muscles than just your arms. It’s the same thing in a job and a career.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood, thank you. So now let’s talk about the book here. It’s called Lose the Resume, Land the Job. What’s the big idea behind it?

Gary Burnison
The big idea is most people are clueless; that most people do more research in terms of buying a washing machine than actually thinking about their career and their next job. And it’s blowing me away, from college students to Fortune 100 board members. And there’s this kind of view that, “Okay, I’m like miserable. I can’t wait for jury duty. I just can’t go into this place anymore. My boss is a jerk. I’m not going anywhere. He or she’s promised a performance review six times over the last six months. I finally got one last week, and it was five minutes.”
We’ve all, all been there. The problem is, all of us, what we do – the first thing is we get out a piece of paper or we get out a computer and we start updating this little thing called the resume. And what happens is we sit there, we start to agonize over verbs or adjectives. We think we’re Hemingway.

Pete Mockaitis
The font. The font, Gary!

Gary Burnison
Yeah, the font, the size, the space. And three hours go by, you’re so frustrated that you just go back to that miserable boss again. Or you complete the exercise and you blindly send resumes. And my view is, if that’s what you’re doing, you just as well go down to 7-Eleven and buy a lottery ticket. Because your chances of getting hired cold through that resume are just as good as playing the lotto.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright, understood. Okay, and I want to dig into the sort of thoughtlessness piece you mentioned. I love it, it was well-stated – the unspoken truths there, when it comes to the amount of time spent researching a washing machine or a TV. I love numbers. I couldn’t help it, I had to look it up. An Ipsos survey put research of a TV purchase at four hours. And I don’t know if you were sort of being cheeky or data-driven with that assertion, but I’m wondering, have you done some research or studies in terms of how much time, energy, thought, attention, folks on quote-unquote “average” are putting into their career planning and path and next move?

Gary Burnison
Very little. Again, I just see it. I can’t tell you how many thousands of resumes I’ve received, and guess where those go? Nowhere.

Pete Mockaitis
In the recycling bin.

Gary Burnison
Yeah, they do. They do. And that’s just the unvarnished truth. And I’m not speaking just for myself; I can tell you that’s what happens. And so there’s this naive view on the part of everybody that, “I can just kind of blindly send out this resume and it’s going to work” or, “I’m going to be plucked out of the ocean like I’m this fabulous fish, and I’m going to get discovered.” It just doesn’t happen. It’s not reality. And so my view is, like you would do with other things in your life, take control.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright. And one way you recommend taking that control is you have a handy acronym – to showcase your ACT. Can you unpack that a little bit for us?

Gary Burnison
Yes, absolutely. And that’s really in the context of meeting a company, doing an interview. Before that if you want to take control of your career, I think you have to first start with purpose and you have to first start with happiness, because if you’re happy you’re probably motivated, if you’re motivated you’re probably going to outperform, and you’re going to love what you’re doing.
So I think the first step, rather than updating the resume, which everybody goes to – that’s the first thing people do – I would say don’t do that. I would say actually look at yourself, in terms of strengths, weaknesses, blind spots. What does that tell you about yourself? What is your life’s purpose? What do you like doing? And from that I would sit there and say, “Okay, what industries, sectors, then companies actually kind of line up against that purpose and what I love doing?” And that includes, by the way, cities – where I want to live.
Then what you want to do is you want to do the whole six degrees of separation thing. You absolutely want to update the resume, and in the book we’ve got ways to do it the right way, but you want to get that warm introduction. So my view is, don’t just look and see if there’s an opening at a job; actually take control and proactively target the places you want to work, and get a warm introduction into those companies.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright, very good. And how is that done well, in terms of really making that work for you?

Gary Burnison
The whole effort around networking does require work. I mean you have to roll up your sleeves; you have to actually research who really works at this company, where did they go to school, what are their backgrounds, what are they involved in the community? You have to do it the good old-fashioned way, offline as well. You’ve got to ask somebody who maybe knows somebody who knows somebody who works at the company. I will tell you that if you just do a random sample and ask people how they got their job, I think what you’re going to find five times out of 10, is that one way or another, they knew somebody at the company, that they somehow, someway got turned on to it.
And so I go back to when we were kids, what happened? Well, there was the ice cream shop, there was the grocery store, there was the bike shop, but you went down to that store and you filled out an application. Well, what actually happened before that? Well, probably somebody had told you that that’s a really cool place to work, or you shopped there.
But the point is, you proactively targeted where you wanted to work. And what happens then over a span of 10, 20, 50 years later – we forget that. And that most basic principle of taking control and targeting opportunities – you just forget, and you automatically go to the resume. And the resume, trust me, is only 10% of it. People think it’s 90%; it’s actually only 10%.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so you’re doing the networking, and then the principles here are you’re thinking clearly about knowing yourself and your interests, your values, your passions, your strengths, your weaknesses and all that stuff. And then you’re doing your research on folks. And then any other key tips to share to round out the networking perspective and being focused on the other person, etcetera?

Gary Burnison
You had talked about… So I do have tips, in terms of the resume and how you should do a resume. There’s tips, and you asked the question about ACT. That’s in the context of interviewing. So when I think about interviewing, I do think of ACT; and even in the resume preparation. “A” for being authentic, “C” for connecting, and “T” for giving somebody a taste of who you are.
And here’s the deal, is that we each make judgments, whether you like it or not, on another human being within the first seven seconds of meeting that person. So if you assume for a moment that it’s true that that happens – and you may not believe it’s seven seconds; you may believe it’s two seconds, you may believe it’s two minutes – but the reality is it’s sooner rather than later, and we all have preconceived… Our brain works in very mysterious ways.
So what that means is, you’re going to have to do your homework ahead of time, and you’re going to have to find those immediate connection points, because most people think of an interview like, “I’m going to go have a root canal.” It’s this cross between the root canal and Disneyland, and it’s a terrifying experience. And I think that part of the book is to kind of change people’s thinking around, quote, “the interview”, and don’t treat it like an interrogation or you’re having your tooth pulled, but rather make it a conversation.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so then, dig into that a little bit. You lay out some deadly sins of interviewing. Could you share perhaps some of the deadliest and the most commonly occurring?

Gary Burnison
Oh man, I’ve seen it all. Listen, don’t confuse community service and prison. And I’ve actually had that. I once interviewed somebody… I’ll tell you two sides of it – I interviewed somebody, and there was this “Friends of the Freeway”. And I started to probe a little bit and it turned out it really wasn’t “Friends of the Freeway”; it was actually prison time. And the other side of that is somebody who was completely honest, and they had actually been convicted of manslaughter. A very, very sad story, but the person was dead honest. And abusive relationship, the whole thing. The person got hired.
And so, these deadly sins of interviewing – number one, never lie. Don’t exaggerate. Don’t claim success for all of humanity, that it rested on your shoulders. So, that’s number one – don’t lie, don’t inflate, don’t exaggerate. Number two – don’t be late, be on time. Number three – don’t dress like you’re going on Dancing with the Stars. So in other words, you’ve got to do your homework, which is kind of like another sin of interviewing. You have to do your homework ahead of time. So, those are a few thought starters.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s good. I got a real kick out of, in the book you mentioned, don’t eat during your interview, and don’t shout out “Lunch!”, even if it is your lunch hour and you have to get right back to your other job afterwards. And it just made me chuckle.

Gary Burnison
Look, I’ve seen it all, I’ve got to tell you. And we’ve seen it all. We’ve seen people interviewing at Pepsi and asking for a Coke. We’ve seen people interviewing at a fast food place and the candidate actually asked the question, “Do you really eat this crap?” But I think the biggest thing is just not being prepared, not doing your homework. You’ve got to actually know what you’re going to wear, go there ahead of time, know what the commute’s like, Google the person, go on LinkedIn, make sure you’re dressed appropriately for the gig, for the culture, that you bring your resume, that you bring a notepad, but don’t bring your mom. And I’m telling you, we’ve also seen people bringing their mom. Not a good idea.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that opens up so many new topics for another podcast – sort of the mindset that could lead to that sense that that was acceptable is intriguing. But you tell me, Gary – before we shift gears and hear about a few of your favorite things, any other key points you really want to make sure to share with this group first?

Gary Burnison
Take control. I just hate to see people that they actually don’t plan their careers, that it’s more kind of by happenstance. And I think it’s becoming more common for people to have worked for different employers. Job hopping is not a stigma anymore; that’s actually how you learn. You learn through who you’re working for, and people ignore that. People focus on the money, which I get. Look, I was the first one to go to college, I’ve been there. I know what it’s like, I’ve been there, trust me.
But what people ignore is their boss. They ignore the fact of who they’re going to work for. The boss is actually going to have a gigantic determinant of your happiness and success. Culture. People now focus on the title and the money and the ring, but they won’t focus on the culture. Well, the truth is, most people won’t fail or succeed based on whether they were technically competent; they’re going to fail or succeed because there wasn’t that culture fit. And people totally ignore that.
And so a company is no different than a house or a family. People coming into my house don’t have to take off their shoes – that’s kind of customary. Well, in another person’s house maybe they do need to take off their shoes. Well, that person’s not right or wrong, and I’m not right or wrong. But the reality is, each company has a very, very unique culture and you have to spend as much time thinking about whether that culture is going to invigorate you and keep you motivated. And most people just don’t focus on culture; they focus on money.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’d love to get your quick take – maybe could you drop for us three rapid-fire, hard-hitting cultural mismatches you see that are destructive, like, “Hey, the candidate loves this but the company is that”, and sadness ensues?

Gary Burnison
I see all the time companies have these great job descriptions, they’re so long, and they seem so strategic and so lofty, and yet when you ask, “Okay, but what am I really going to do on Monday?”, there’s this huge gap between what the job description says versus what you’re actually going to do. So make sure you actually know what you’re going to do. It may sound stupid but, “What do you want me to accomplish in the first month? What do you want me to accomplish in the first six months?” That’s number one.
Number two is around culture. I think one of the easiest ways to tell that is how people dress. So, what’s that like? Or people’s offices, if it’s offices. Is it open door, closed door, do families get together, do they not get together, are there virtual employees or they’re not virtual, do you have to go in the office? Dress and kind of everyday stuff reveals a multitude around culture.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s intriguing. And so could you share, “Hey, if you see this, it tends to mean that” kinds of quick rules of thumb there?

Gary Burnison
If you walk into an office and it seems like… And I’ve gone into places, trust me, and I thought I was at a mortuary. Now, that may be great for some people; I’m not saying that that’s not great. I mean some people may love hardwood, dark wood panel, shag carpet, drop a needle, everybody hears it. That could be great; it’s not me. So, you just have to make sure that you know what’s you, and I can’t tell you what’s you.
But those very, very basic things, man – open your eyes. I’ll never forget this company – the people would put “Stop” signs on their door, that you couldn’t come in. And that’s just not me. I’ve been in companies where the office doors are closed all the time. That’s not me, but it could be somebody else. So you just have to look at those – they seem pedestrian, they seem rudimentary, but I guarantee you they are probably the most important.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, thank you. Well now, could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Gary Burnison
What’s on my mind these days is, “Don’t talk about it; be about it.” And the world is at an interesting place, and the left is further left and the right’s further right. And there’s obviously a lot of conversations from socio-economic to the workplace environment. And for me personally right now, that’s kind of my motto, is that, “Let’s not just talk about it; let’s be about it.”

Pete Mockaitis
Alright, thank you. And how about a favorite study or experiment or a piece of research?

Gary Burnison
Well, I’ll only talk about right now – probably Mao Tse-Tung, The Little Red Book. China – I’ve lived in China. It’s a very mysterious place, and you think you know it and in fact you don’t know anything. So that’s actually what I’m turned on by these days, that’s kind of what I’m reading. And I’m trying to gather from that – even though very communist and you might find it counter-intuitive – but I’m trying to glean kind of humanity. What the overall theme right now for me is really just, don’t talk about it; be about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And how about a favorite tool, something that helps you be awesome at your job?

Gary Burnison
I read, read, read. And so I wake up in the morning before anybody, and I go to bed at night doing the same thing. And it’s not so much novels; it’s just kind of being in the world and current events. So I’d say that probably helps me because again, a big part of what I do is trying to connect with others. And we are in 60 different countries, many different cultures, 8,000 people. I think that to the extent that I am broader, I’m going to have a better chance of connecting with others. And as a leader it’s really not about the leader; it’s about whether you can create followership, which is not easy to do.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a particular nugget that you share that you find is often quoted back to you or really seems to be connecting, resonating with folks, retweeting and taking notes?

Gary Burnison
Yeah, it gets thrown back at me all the time because we’re all human beings and we’re all flawed. But I’ve always tried to have an orientation of, does somebody feel better after the conversation than before? And I fail at that all the time. Absolutely fail at that all the time. But I try to hold that out and I check myself against the glass. I think that’s a pretty good yardstick for a leader, that you want people to feel better no matter the situation, after than before.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright. And Gary, if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Gary Burnison
LoseTheResume.com. We’ve got the book there, we’ve got a whole business of Korn Ferry around helping people with their careers – KFAdvance.com, books on Amazon. So that’s where to find out more.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright. And do you have a final challenge or a call to action for those seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Gary Burnison
Be indispensable to somebody else, and find your purpose.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright. Well Gary, thanks so much for taking this time; I know it is in high demand. And for all the work you do in leading Korn Ferry and the cool stuff that comes out of it, I’ve been a longtime admirer and this was a lot of fun for me.

Gary Burnison
Thank you very much. It’s great.

Feb 05
0

258: Doing the Work You Do Best with Ken Coleman

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Ken Coleman says: "Our sweet spot is at the intersection of our greatest talent and greatest passion."

Broadcaster Ken Coleman guides us in discovering what we’re created to do… and how to see that dream become a reality.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The litmus test for your passion
  2. The “nuclear option” for dealing with a difficult teammate or boss
  3. What to do when you’re burnt out at work but can’t leave just yet

About Ken 

Ken Coleman is host of The Ken Coleman Show and EntreLeadership Podcast, and author of One Question: Life-Changing Answers from Today’s Leading Voices. Ken is an acclaimed interviewer and broadcaster who equips, encourages and entertains listeners through thought-provoking interviews, helping them grow their businesses, pursue their passions, and move toward a fulfilled purpose. You can follow him on Twitter at @KenColeman, on Instagram at @KenWColeman, and online at kencolemanshow.com or facebook.com/KenColemanHost.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Ken Coleman Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Ken, thanks so much for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Ken Coleman
Thrilled to be on. Thanks for having me, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. Well, I’m looking forward to it. It’s so funny, I’ve seen your name many, many times in the iTunes Careers podcast charts, and now you’ve got two of them sort of surrounding me in the Top 10, which is not that rankings matter. It’s quite a mystery how they arrive there. But it’s fun to be talking to you like live, like you’re a real person and here we are chatting.

Ken Coleman
Yeah. Well, you know what, I am live and I’m a real person so that’s very exciting.

Pete Mockaitis
Two for two. So, I’d love it if you could dispel something I’ve been wondering about for quite a while when I see the EntreLeadership podcast logo. What does the word EntreLeadership mean, because I’ve got my own conceptions but I’d like to hear it from you? is it a state of mind, or a precise definition, or a brand? What should I think about this word?

Ken Coleman
Yeah. Well, Dave Ramsey is the founder of Ramsey Solutions, the Dave Ramsey Show, and the author of that New York Times bestselling book EntreLeadership, and the word comes from Dave’s desire to train internal leaders many, many years ago just as his company was beginning to grow in the 20, 30, 40 team member range, just training his own internal leaders.

And he began to think through, “Now, what does a healthy leader look like in an organization? We certainly want them to have all of the traits of an entrepreneur, but we also want them to be solid leaders as well and not all entrepreneurs are great leaders.” That’s a real combination, if you think, your audience, they can define what an entrepreneur is and then what a leader is.

And so, he smashed two words together, he goes, “I want leaders who are solid and can lead, but also have an entrepreneurial spirit, an entrepreneurial focus,” and so the word EntreLeadership, together, came into a teaching curriculum; internal. Then people started coming in from outside the walls of Ramsey Solutions and, over time, eventually it became a division and a bestselling book. So, that’s what EntreLeadership means. It just means an entrepreneurial leader.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. I’m with you there. And so, now, you’ve got a newer show here The Ken Coleman Show which is cool. So, it’s all about – as I read from the description and listened to a little bit – folks who sort of feel often stuck in their jobs. Could you give us the broader picture for what that show is all about and a fuller picture for the problem of folks who are stuck in their jobs?

Ken Coleman
Sure. The Ken Coleman Show is completely focused on helping people discover what it is that they were created to do. And then once they discover that, well, then, “How do you make a plan to see that dream become a reality?” That is, in fact, what’s is about. So, you got people across the spectrum, we have people who call in on the show and they’re not sure what it is that they want to do with their life or what it is that they were created to do. No clues. They just need some sounding board to begin to look internally, and I’ll get to that in a second.

Then we have people who are confused, so they have a good sense of what they may be passionate about but they’re not sure how their talent intersects there. Then you have a large group of people that are stuck, and these are people who are actually good at their job, they have great talent, but they’re doing something that has zero passion.

And so, these all comes from a very simple analogy that a mentor gave to me many, many years ago when I was in my 20s, and the idea that is we all have a sweet spot. And our sweet spot is at the intersection of our greatest talent and greatest passion. So, in other words, we are living and working in our sweet spot when we’re using our top skills, top talents, the things we do best to do the work that we’re passionate about, the work that we love.

Then when you throw values on the backend of that, so I use my great talent to perform my great passion to see the results that I care most about; that’s talent, passion, values. When those three can intersect in that type of a purpose sentence and we live that out, we’re in our sweet spot. And everybody gets that analogy from sports.

If you’ve played any type of sports, whether it be baseball bat or a tennis racket or golf club, when you hit the ball perfectly in the sweet spot of that instrument it’s almost as if you cannot feel the contact of the ball, it’s such a clean crisp hit. And this isn’t just a homespun metaphor. There’s a guy by the name of Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, you cannot spell it, you have to look it up.

But he’s a Romanian psychologist, that’s right, and he’s done 30 years of work on this idea of flow. And what he describes is essentially the same process of striking a ball with a club or racket or a bat, and that sweet spot it just feels as though it’s effortless. It’s almost as if time begins to stand still and disappear. So, there’s great science behind this.

And so, Pete, we’ve thrown this out there, we put it out there three months ago, and the response has been fantastic because people need a sounding board or need help walking through what their top talents are and what their top passions are and how those intersect, so that’s what we do everyday, one caller at a time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very cool. So, there’s so much to dig into there, and so I’d love to get your take on, so I guess, a role that matches your talent, your passion, and your values. And I guess, in a way, this isn’t quite binary in terms of, “This matches my talent. This does not match my talent. This matches my passion. This does not match my passion,” but it’s sort of like a spectrum, or zero to 100% range associated with a given role and how well it’s fitting into that sweet spot.

So, I’d love it if maybe you could orient us a little bit to what does something that’s kind of in your talent or your passion or your values sweet spot look, sound, feel like in practice versus something that is awesomely on track in your talent, your passion, your values? So, I imagine you’ve had many listeners and many callers and many clients and such that you’ve explored and assessed that.

But I think it’d be great if you could paint that picture for listeners so that it’s a little bit of a, “Oh, I thought I was doing okay, but, wow, there’s a whole lot more out there for me.”

Ken Coleman
Sure. Well, I think the easiest way to describe what you’re asking me to describe is, “What does it actually look like and feel like when I am doing work that I was created to do?” And, again, it comes down to the simple scale of, “Does the work that I’m doing right now, does it fire up my soul?” Because if it doesn’t, now we know, well, there’s reasons why.

But it’s the idea that when you are engaged in work that you truly love, that you’re passionate about, it’s because you’re actually good at it. Very few among us, I’m sure there’s some freaks out there who like to do things they’re terrible at. The only thing I do like that is golf. Like I play golf but I’m terrible but I enjoy the camaraderie.

And so, the reality is most of us don’t want to do anything that we’re not good at. And so, you can test your passion level. So, do you feel yourself alive and excited? Do you get a bit of a rush? Do you feel the juice? You’re just like, “Man, this is so much fun. I enjoy this. I get so much out of this work. I don’t want to stop. I find time just” as I said earlier, “beginning to slip away before I realize it.”

Passion is the great indicator as it relates to work that I love and work that matters to me, that’s values. So, if you don’t feel that and sense that, I can just tell you, it’s the greatest indicator and it’s the simplest indicator, then something is off. And most likely, what we find is, is that you may be good at doing what it is that you’re doing but there’s no intrinsic connection for you, there’s no heart connection, there’s no soul connection.

And so, that’s what you’re always looking for. Now you can flip that and you can see where people get confused and spend decades feeling like they’ve not caught an opportunity. So, this is the flipside of the question you asked me, “What does it look like when you’re not in the sweet spot?” What we see a lot of times is people pursuing something that they are very passionate about.

So, a lot of the emotion and devotion towards some work, but sadly they’re not aware that they don’t have the talent to pull it off. Something is missing and it’s in the talent/skill section. Maybe sometimes it’s just something you need to learn, but you’ll spend so much time pursuing something you’re passionate about but you don’t have the talent to pull off.

I run into this on the show a lot, Pete, with people who have tried so many different entrepreneurial opportunities and it just never click for them. And then when you begin to break it down, you realize they didn’t have the skill to pull of what they were trying to pull off. They loved it.

And so, a personal example, to pick on myself. I love the game of basketball. I absolutely love it. I love to consume it, I like to play it, but I’m 43 years old and I’m 5’9” so if I tried to make a living playing basketball or coaching basketball it’s just simply never going to work. And so, you have to be able to understand, “Wait a second. Do I have the necessary talent and skill to perform this function that I’m passionate about?”

And if not, it’s just about dialing it back and getting into a space of self-awareness to go, “Okay. This might be something that I do as a hobby or engaging hobby, but I can’t pull it off at least in this function.” So, I would work with somebody on the phone and say, “Okay. What do you love most about this type of work?”

And then you get to understand what it is they love the most. You go, “Okay. Now, what are your top talents? Can you pull it off? Because maybe it’s just a redirection and it’s a different perspective, a different avenue of performing work that you care about.”

So, again, it’s back to, “Am I having a hard time getting to work on Monday morning?” If that’s an issue of burnout. And if you’re passionate about something, you never burnout. You might get really, really tired and you need a break, but you don’t burnout.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s a helpful picture. Thank you. And so, now I’m thinking a little bit about some of the tricky issue. I think that it’s quite possible that you could be in a role where you got the talent, the passion and the values, and yet it’s not profitable. You talked about entrepreneurial things, I thought, “Well, they might just not have a product-market fit in terms of like the actual good or service that they’re bringing to the market, and no one really kind of wants it badly enough to buy it,” which I’ve seen and lived numerous times in my entrepreneurial failures.

And then, also, I think outside of entrepreneurial land, if you’re enmeshed in an organization with people and politics and teams and all that, I’m curious to zoom in there because I think there are many folks – and I’m thinking of a few right now, those close me – who, they got the talent. They really great at doing the thing. They got the passion, they really believe in what it’s all about and think it’s really cool to advance it, and they’ve got the values in terms of that’s really meaningful stuff that they’re working.

Let’s talk about the healthcare industry, for example. And yet there can be some challenges with regard to difficult co-workers, employees, bosses, politics, meetings. It’s sort of like the external kind of surrounding stuff that kind of diminishes the beautiful fit that we found here and brings it down so the experience of work is not delightful and awesome. What are some of your perspectives for dealing with those just difficult things that get in the way there?

Ken Coleman
Well, you gave me two scenarios so I’ll try to address both of them. Let’s go to the last scenario which is that lines up, the work lines up with their passion, their talent, and their values but it’s not fun anymore because they got a difficult leader or they’ve got difficult team members or the culture itself is really unhealthy, and we have that all the time on the show.

But, again, you’re in your sweet spot but this idea that life is a yellow brick road where little people are singing to you – like in the movie The Wizard of Oz, as you move along the journey – that’s just not the reality. So, I would say to that person, “You’re doing the right thing but you’re in the wrong place.” So, there’s no confusion, you’re doing the right thing but you’re not in the right place, because if you can’t fix the culture and you got difficult people then you need to get out.

Again, Pete, I have that call pretty regular. I’d say I probably get that call five or six times a week, and it confuses us and rightfully so, because you’re going, “Wait a second. I’m dreading going into work. I must not be in the right industry. What am I supposed to be doing?” And when I ask a follow-up question, you find out, “No, you’re just in the wrong place, in an unhealthy environment. Get out.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, that’s really what I want to zero in on, so get out. Like, how do you navigate a little bit of that tricky zone in terms of you could sort of get out right away, you could try to change, to adjust, to influence things, to provide some feedback? How do you think about that world? If folks are right there, right now, it’s like, “Hmm, I am doing the right stuff but I am in the wrong spot,” what would you say are kind of like the immediate next step actions?

Ken Coleman
Well, the first thing is, can you do anything to make it better? What can you do? Before you pull the eject string there or hit the eject button, what can you do to make things better? Is there anything you can do? So, for instance, if you got some difficult teammates then I think there are some real healthy confrontation, you need to go to leadership and you need to go directly to them and you work on them.

I certainly believe in redemptive power. I believe in redemption, that people can learn so I’d start there. You just don’t throw your hands in the air the first time you deal with a difficult person. So, after that, if there’s no resolution after you’ve handled yourself well on a peer-to-peer basis and then you’ve taken the problem to leadership, and if the problem doesn’t get better then you’re immediately going, “Okay. What’s my plan? What’s my plan to get out?”

And when you think about a plan, you’re always going, “All right. Where is it that I want to jump to? How long is that going to take to get in a position where I can jump? Is there some additional qualifications, education, things of that nature that I’m going to have to do, some networking, relationshiping?”

And you don’t just jump. I never recommend unless you are in physical or mental danger. If it’s that serious then you leave that day. I don’t want to minimize that because that happens. However, most of us can put up with difficult people. Most of us can put up with a difficult leader. And so, I want you to be strategic about it, and you’re thinking through, “Okay. Where is it that I want to land? How am I going to get there? How much time do I think is that going to take?”

And it’s just like creating a plan for anything else. If you’re planning a vacation, you’re planning a workout routine, same kind of mindset so that you can move forward, but move forward in control as much as you can and you’re not putting yourself in financial danger or putting yourself out there with nothing to jump to.

Now, the only caveat to that is if you’ve got a substantial emergency fund, you got a lot of savings out there, or you have zero debt, and you’re well below your means then, hey, I would say eject because there’s no stress or pressure on you and you can get out right now. But outside of that I’d want you to come up with a plan.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. And I love the phrase that you dropped there, redemptive learning, which is – speaking to my Christian roots over here – I dig it.

Ken Coleman
Sure.

Pete Mockaitis
So, I want to talk about that because I think that it’s easy to assume that someone, “That’s just the way they are. They don’t care. They’re checked out. They don’t like me. They’re not into coaching and growth and learning and development. They don’t value the same thing.” When I think it’s easy to say, “That’s just the way they are,” and sort of almost like writing them off.

And I think part of that comes from maybe folks have tried a couple times and haven’t seen much traction in terms of bring an issue up, or maybe it just comes from sort of a voice of fear justified, like, “Oh, that sounds like a really tough conversation. Well, it probably isn’t worth it. It wasn’t going to do anything anyway.”

So, I’d like to get your pro tips on, in practice, how do you engage in some of those difficult conversations and embark upon bringing about some redemptive learning?

Ken Coleman
Yeah. Well, before I give you some tips, we need to acknowledge something that most of us are terrified of confrontation.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Ken Coleman
And that’s a natural thing. It’s not fun, and especially in a work environment to sit down with somebody and go, “Hey, you’re a jerk,” but you’re not going to say it that way, but that’s essentially how you feel you’re going to come across. And the idea that is just insane, “I don’t want to put up with this. This isn’t even worth the stress of thinking about a difficult conversation,” otherwise known as confrontation. So, a lot of us are really terrified.

Now, there are certain people, I happen to be wired this way – if you’re familiar with enneagram – I’m fine with confrontation. Confrontation, to me, is kind of like it’s a sport, it comes along with life and I’m cool with it. It doesn’t mean you have to enjoy being mean. It just means you don’t mind a difficult conversation.

So, if you’re going to get in a situation like that and you’re at a point where you go, “This has got to be fixed. It’s got to change or I’m out,” then this is all about how you posture yourself. You sit down, and I would never do a one-on-one, I would have a leader involved just because I feel like, in this day and age, you just seem to have a witness there that, “Hey, this is how this went down. It was handled professionally.”

But I would have that sit-down with that difficult person and go, “Hey, this is how I’m feeling,” and that’s not accusatory. You’re putting it all on you, you’re saying, “Hey, this how I’m feeling. I’m perceiving you this way. And I want to ask you, is that reality from your point of view? Do you see it that way? Do you understand why I feel that way?”

And what’s happening there are two little tips that you asked for. Number one is you focused on the way you are perceiving it. You didn’t present it as a fact so, therefore, they have less chance to be defensive. The second thing you did, which also disarms in this, you ask them if they see it that way. So, now, you’re asking, and that interrogatory little tool there of a question, again, keeps them from feeling under attack.

Now, again, full disclosure, if a person is insecure and naturally defensive, no matter how you say it they just don’t like being called out on anything no matter how sweet and kind you are. But I would lead with that, and then I would say, in the course of the question, “Hey, I’ve sat down together today, and I ask you these questions and I put this out because I want us to not have this tension and I’m sensing it.”

And if they agree there’s tension, then, “Hey, what can we do? Because I’m here for this reason, and this is what I want to be, and I want to have a great relationship with you, and this is causing,” whatever, whatever, whatever. Very honest and extremely clear. Don’t beat around the bush. The more ambiguous you are the more defensive and insecure the person that you are confronting is going to be. And clarity may not be fun. It may be a little awkward but it is, as human beings, we crave clarity.

Is there anything worse than being unclear in confrontation? If the person that you’re confronting is going, and what they’re doing is they’re going, “Why don’t you just shoot me straight? What’s really going on?”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, absolutely.

Ken Coleman
And you’re creating more tension. So, clear, clear, clear but very kind.

Pete Mockaitis
And actually it really amplifies the uncomfortableness.

Ken Coleman
Oh, sure.

Pete Mockaitis
Discomfort. That’s the word – discomfort. When you’re there, in terms of like, “What exactly are we talking about here? I think that something heavy is on your mind but I don’t perfectly know what it is yet. And I’m kind of spooked and just sort of waiting for the shoe to drop.” So, I love that tip about being super clear, and I love that sentence associated with, “I want us to not have this tension. I want to have a great relationship with you.”

And I think, boy, even the most, I don’t know, hardcore, purely task-result oriented, Grinch, heart of stone human being, I think if you hear that, I think just everyone will say, “Well, yeah, I’d like that too. It may be hard because of all these things you do that drive me nuts, or I might not think it’s in the cards because you are so wrong so profoundly in these ways that disrupt me.” But I think that that is something that just about everyone can agree to, which is cool.

Now, I want to zero in, I’m a little fixated though on you brought up getting a witness. And I think that, in a way, that makes awesome sense in terms of you don’t want things misconstrued, “I didn’t say that at all,” right? And it totally can happen. But, at the same time, having an observer present changes kind of the vibe, the dynamic. It’s almost like, “Uh-oh, I’m in trouble. This is serious hardcore stuff.”

And so, yeah, it sounds tricky. So, let me know more of your philosophy there.

Ken Coleman
No, it’s not. It’s not. There’s no trickiness about it. In fact, having a third person in there that is objective and in leadership or on the same level as both of you.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure. Sure.

Ken Coleman
So, they’re investors. So, this is not somebody that would be below them. Ideally, it’s a leadership position. And I probably did not stipulate that, so let me be very, very clear. That’s what I’m suggesting. If this is a serious confrontation, this isn’t some just little, “Hey, listen, you said this the other day in a meeting.”

No, this is like, you gave me this scenario, Pete, of like you’re not happy, you want to get out, so this is the last resort. So, that’s when you get the third, that’s what I’m talking about. And it’s not tricky at all. Because it actually does what you said it does, which is it takes a whole another level of seriousness, like, “Okay. What’s going on here?” Especially when you’re letting them know what the meeting is about, and then they realize that person is in there, that leadership is in there and it just got real. And that’s what needs to happen. This is serious business.

Number two, it’s not just about having a witness so that things cannot be misconstrued and that you’ve got all that kind of stuff for HR and for the record, but it’s also so that you’re in check as well. You’re not going to come at somebody with a machine gun of charges and blare them out in front of a leader either unless you’re completely tone deaf, so it also keeps you in check and helps your posture stay in a place of gracious confrontation, “Hey, this isn’t about being angry. This is about let’s get some resolution here.” And so, it becomes less personal when we have another person, especially in leadership, that is observing.

The third thing is that person is objective. So, when it’s all said and done, it’s good to have that leader speak into the situation, even one-on-one with each of you afterwards, or right then and there, or later. But I absolutely think if you’re about serious redemptive confrontation you need to have a third-party person. I mean, that’s exactly what the Bible prescribes. And I think that if you’re going to confront somebody, you go right to them, but I think in this type of work setting where it’s really ugly, I would have a third party involved.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Got you. So, I think that’s helpful that we’re aligning in context right here.

Ken Coleman
Again, I think healthy confrontation, you get a leader involved and you get on the same page, in that way they realize, “Hey, we’re not coming after you. I’m not taking a shot at you. We need to fix this. This is not acceptable behavior.”

I just don’t see any problem with bringing in a leader especially if you’ve talked to the leader ahead of time. Now, if the leaders says, “I’m not comfortable. Handle it one-on-one,” then go for it. But I’m giving you what I think is the best way to handle confrontation in the workplace, I mean, serious confrontation where it needs to stop, behavior needs to change. If this was a misunderstanding, Pete, then I’m fine with just one-on-one go to lunch. But I think if a behavior needs to stop then it’s got to have a third party involved.

Pete Mockaitis
Here’s my resistance point, it seems like bringing the leader in, like it definitely brings with it a set of awesome advantages that you’ve laid out. I think the disadvantage, that I used the term tricky not to mean like politically sneaky in the sense of the word tricky, but tricky as in, “Ugh, the person on the receiving end of this may get seriously enraged that I “tattled” or told or brought the hammer of authority upon them in a way that it’s sort of like diminishes their reputation, good name, whatever you want to call it.” And so, I’m thinking that you could get a little bit of a backlash or a negative response just from the fact that that has happened.

Ken Coleman
Yeah, again, you’re not bringing authority down on them. You just have somebody that is either an equal peer on the same level who is just somebody who cares about both of you and wants to help with the resolution, or a leader is involved because, again, the behavior needs to stop, so I’m really not worried about them getting enraged.

And you’re not doing it publicly; you’re doing it in a private setting with leadership. I just think that’s a healthy, healthy environment when you can do that. So, we may have to agree to disagree. This is not my particular line of expertise. I’m not an HR consultant, but that’s my answer to that question.

Pete Mockaitis
Ken, what I’m loving here is that you have introduced something wholly new to my brain in terms of like, “Oh, that’s a fine thought,” and I am playing it every which way in terms of the pros and cons and implications and repercussions. And, of course, listeners will make their own judgments. And so, I’m digging it, and I’m thinking that this tool absolutely has its place in the toolkit so it’s been expanded in my brain which I like. It’s almost like a video game power up noise.

Ken Coleman
Sure. And understand that that’s how I think confrontation should be handled when something needs to stop. We’re not going to be sweet and soft about it. We’re going to be kind and respectful, but extremely honest. And, to me, there’s no sense in having four or five processes and setup. So, yeah, I get that. I may be uncomfortable over some but I can tell you this, if you try it, it’s the beginning of the end of that behavior one way or the other.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. Okay. Well, so we covered that in great detail. So, moving on to new topics. I’d like to get your view for if folks are right here right now feeling some burnout but not yet ready to make the leap because of financial or other sorts of considerations, are there any pro tips for what can make the experience of work life suck less right here and right now where you are?

Ken Coleman
Sure. Yeah, I think it’s about progress. So, you’re in a position where you know you want to leave where you’re at but you can’t, and so it’s about mindset. And what we know about the human condition, there’s all kinds of science out there on this, is that when we are making progress towards our goals, even if it is incremental, so it can be the slightest amount of progress, it does motivate us further and it keeps us engaged.

So, engagement is many times about making some progress, so that could be a multitude of things. If somebody calls me on the show and says, “Okay, Ken, this is going to take me three years to get out of debt, and so it’s going to take me at least that plus then I’ve got to go to school to get where I want to go.” I had a caller the other day, he said, “It’s going to be about five, six years. What do you suggest I do in that time?”

And so, we broke down where he wanted to go, what he wanted to do. And so, he eventually wanted to be a physical therapist. He’s only got so much he can do, so what would he focus on? Well, the fact that he’s knocking off his financial goals, that’s going to fire him up because every time he pays off a debt he’s getting that much closer to freedom. Freedom to pursue what it is that he wants to do.

So, there’s some financial goals that if you begin to change the perspective that it’s not just paying off some stupid decisions that you made years ago, it’s, “Wait a second. Every time I pay something off on a monthly basis I’m getting closer and closer to my goal.” That’s a mindset switch and it really will help you.

But then, specifically, I told him, I said, “Hey, what are some things you can do because, at the end of the day, you really love the idea of helping people and through therapy and things of that nature. So, what about massage therapy or could you go work for a physical therapist 5, 10, 15 hours a week so that you’re at least in the space of the work that you want to be doing?” He lit up like a Christmas tree. He’d never even thought of that.

So, there’s a guy that if he goes and he just starts working part-time for a therapist, or he starts working for a spa or something like that, and he’s engaged in the work that he wants to do long term, he’s getting a little taste of it. And so, what that’s doing is I liken passion to an appetite. If you want to get a healthy appetite, a nutritionist is going to tell you you’ve got to put the right stuff in your body at the right times, and so that’s three, four, five, six meals a day, whatever.

So, you can do the same thing while you’re in the waiting. What little things can you do? What can you read? What classes can you take and in the space that you want to be in? What you’re doing there is you’re feeding your appetite and you’re keeping your passion not only alive but you’re actually growing your passion, and you’re keeping everything kind of going and it allows you to get through what you need to get through the whole idea of doing what you have to do so you could do what you want to do.

And, many times, what you’ll find is that you’ll get there faster because your passion is motivating you. So, it’s all about getting as much as you can while you can. You’re not going to get it all but get a little bit, get as much as you can, and you’ll find that time flies and you get where you want to be before you know it.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. Well, we’re entering the sort of final phase of these questions. I’d love to hear, you’ve asked many questions in your podcast and your book One Question: Life-Changing Answers from Today’s Leading Voices. What are some of the most exceptionally useful tidbits, if you could just give us a bullet or two or three, that you’ve gathered from these folks that are particularly applicable to working professionals?

Ken Coleman
Yeah, that’s hard to choose from, but I think two that popped to the top of my mind, one was from Jim Collins, the author of Good to Great, arguably, the greatest researcher in business sort of relates to great companies, what makes them, what breaks them. And I asked him, actually, in my book One Question I was coming at him on this idea of we all love greatness. Think about it, we love to go to a great restaurant or to a great concert or cheer for a great team, but, sadly, when we look at the numbers, most of us are okay with an average life. We don’t pursue greatness in our personal lives.

And I was asking him, “Why is that?” And he said something that I’d never thought about before but it’s so brilliant, he said, “It’s not that we’re risk-averse; it’s that we’re ambiguity-averse.” And I’m going to say that again because it’s so heavy. He says people don’t pursue greatness because they’re worried about the risk. They don’t pursue greatness because they’re worried about the unknown.

So, for instance, Pete, if I say to you, “Hey, we’re going to do some action sport,” and I say, “There’s a couple of risks. You might break an arm at the very worst but you’re going to get beat up a little bit. It’s going to be a lot of fun.” I’ve told you what the risks are, and you go, “Okay. Great.” But if I say, “We’re going to go do something, and we have no idea how it’s going to turn out,” that can literally paralyze a person. And it’s true; science shows all kinds of data there.

The number one thing that humans are afraid of is the unknown. So, that speaks, by the way, into the stat that many people have heard, that people are more afraid of public speaking than death, because with death we kind of go, “All right, I’m dead.” While public speaking, “I don’t know if they’re going to like me or go throw tomatoes at me, they’re going to laugh at me,” whatever it is. This ambiguity is what paralyzes us. So, that was really, really strong.

And then the other piece is I interviewed Coach K, the Hall of Fame Duke Basketball coach. It was the first interview I ever did. It’s crazy story. Unbelievable how I got to do that interview. But he said something to me at the time, and I had little ones, they were all, I think, under three. And he said something about some of these point guards that he’s had in the past, and he singled out two specifically: Bobby Hurley and Tommy Amaker.

And he said, “Both of those guys were very, very different, and I coached them different.” And he said that, “I had to learn how to let them be who they are in the framework of the system.” And then he went into another story, he said, “I’m the same way with my program in general. I don’t give much leniency at all with freshmen. For instance, if a freshman misses the bus by five minutes we’d leave him there even if he’s an All-American. But if a junior or a senior is five minutes late, we’re going to hold the bus.” He goes, “I call it fair but not equal.”

And it was a great piece of parenting advice and leadership advice that has stuck with me. It’s really, really true. As leaders, as parents, we’re going to have to really understand this idea of fair but not equal. You can’t treat everybody equally. And we live in a day and age, Pete, you know this in 2017, almost 2018, where it’s all about fairness, fairness, fairness but what it’s really about is equality. And there is certain equality that has to be in place.

We just talk about rights, but I’m talking about in a workplace. You’re going to have to treat certain people differently, and you can be fair but you can’t treat everybody equally as it relates to in the business and what they’re doing, the function they’re doing. They have differently personality so you’ve got reward them differently, you recognize them differently, you reprimand them differently. Same thing with parenting. It’s a really brilliant thought and it’s something that I think about on a daily basis as a dad.

Pete Mockaitis
Those are nice clear distinctions. I dig it. And, then, to sort of swap it a little bit, you’re often asking many people many questions. I’d love it if you could share a couple transformational questions that you’ve been posed or asked of and that have been particularly transformational for you.

Ken Coleman
Well, that’s a very interesting question. I don’t recall that I’ve had any guests that I’ve been in an interview format who’d turned the tables on me and asked me a transformational question just by nature of what we’re doing. But I certainly think of some transformational questions that I’ve had mentors ask me.

I had a mentor who was mentoring me in the area of marriage when I was in my 20s, and he said something to me that I’ll never forget. He said, “The next time that you’re going to express disappointment or anger or whatever with Stacy, I want you to ask yourself this question first, ‘Is it going to matter 25 years from now?’”

And I remember going, you know, I’ve probably been married like three or four years at the time, and it was so revolutionary to me, and not just in my marriage but in general. And I think that that’s something I’d pass along. That’s probably one of the most powerful questions that I’d ever been asked by somebody, was that right there.

Because, I think, many times we react in the moment, and then it’s the type of thing that if we put that kind of filter on it, think of the lack of confrontation, think of the dumb tweets that we wouldn’t tweet, or think of whatever it would be. But to put that lens on, it is really important, so I guess that’s probably the most transformational question I’ve ever been asked by anybody.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Cool. Well, Ken, tell me, anything you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and rapid fire and hear about some of your favorite things?

Ken Coleman
Oh, no, man, this is your show so I’m just here to answer your questions. I’m enjoying this.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Cool. Well, then, let’s do it. Can you start us off by sharing a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Ken Coleman
Yeah. Well, I share this one on The Ken Coleman Show all the time. I probably share it once a week, and it’s by W.H. Murray, and this is a Scottish mountaineer who was also a writer. And you got to think of this, as I’m sharing this, as a guy who made his living on these daring expeditions. But he once wrote, “Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back. Concerning all acts of initiative, there’s one elementary truth, the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans; that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too.”

“All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one’s favor all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamed would come his way. Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and, magic in it.”

And here’s my favorite three words, “Begin it now.”

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Thank you. And how about a favorite study, or experiment, or bit of research?

Ken Coleman
Favorite experiment, a bit of research. I think some research by the University of Michigan. I reveal this in my book One Question and it’s in the last chapter, talking about how to re-attain this habit of inquiry that we all are born with. As little kids we ask hundreds of questions a day. And the University of Michigan did some research on that premise, and so they found that toddlers sometimes can ask as many as a thousand questions a day, hundreds and hundreds of questions a day, up to a thousand questions a day.

But, by the time the average American reaches the eighth grade, we’re asking three questions a day. And that research fueled me to write that last chapter, and I just was so really, I think, despondent at the time. It’s such a strong word but when I read I was like, “What is going on?” In life and our Western education system is beating the curiosity out of us.

Think about this, Pete, we’re becoming trained to be test-takers instead of pathfinders. So, it’s all about, “Hey, get ready for the test. Get ready for the test. Standardized test.” It’s all about taking tests and having the answer as opposed to knowing how to ask questions. And I think that curiosity is the great key for life. It’s going to unlock so many doors for you. So, that research, for me, I got lost in that. It was pretty interesting stuff.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, cool. Thank you. And how about a favorite book?

Ken Coleman
Favorite book. I think right now that could change within the hour, if you ask me that again. I would say The Art of Power by Jon Meacham. It’s about Thomas Jefferson. He’s one of the great thinkers the world has ever known. I’m a big Jeffersonian, fascinated by the guy. But it’s a book largely written from the letters that he wrote, so I would say that’s probably my favorite book.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite tool that helps you be awesome at your job?

Ken Coleman
That would be feedback.

Pete Mockaitis
Right on. And how about a favorite habit?

Ken Coleman
Quiet time in the morning. I’m up before everybody else. It’s dark. It’s quiet. And I’ve got a little routine with music, and reading, and meditating, and thinking, and breathing. I would say that with a great cup of coffee is my favorite habit.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. And is there a particular nugget you share that seems to really resonate with folks and they repeat it back to you often?

Ken Coleman
I think the thing we hear from the audience the most they quote is the proximity principle, and that says that in order to do what I want to do I have to be around people that are doing it and in places that it is happening. And this is a game-changer when you realize that and you just get where you need to be. You’re observing, you’re learning, you’re watching. So, we’re hearing a lot of that. I think that’s kind of the thing right now; the axiom.

Pete Mockaitis
And, Ken, if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Ken Coleman
Yeah, KenColemanShow.com, and love for them to check out the show. If they don’t have Sirius XM they can get it. It’s a daily podcast on iTunes or Google Play. We’ve got a great free resource. In fact, that Jim Collins answer that I mentioned to you, that’s actually available on my website KenColemanShow.com, it’s absolutely free on the homepage. I forgot to mention that. But that’s such great, I love that so much. You can get that audio chapter for free from the audio book. But then check us out, subscribe, and share on iTunes. And, again, Sirius XM Channel 132.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, cool. And, Ken, do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d leave folks who are seeking to be awesome at their job with?

Ken Coleman
Yeah, I think that the thing you need to remember on a daily basis, and you need to find a way to remind yourself and make this come alive, but if I could record a little audio bite that everybody would listen to every day it would be to say you matter and you’ve got what it takes. You really do matter. There is something that you were created to do, a very unique role.

And it doesn’t necessarily have to be tied to big dollars. It doesn’t have to necessarily be tied to fame or power, but it is tied to significance, and you do matter. And that’s the first thing, and then you do have what it takes. You have within you what it takes to do what it is you were created to do. So, now, it’s just about doing it, you believe that. And if you truly believe it, then you’ll become it.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Well, Ken, thank you so much for sharing this time and perspectives. This has been a real treat. I wish you tons of luck with your shows and books and speaking and all you’re up to.

Ken Coleman
Thanks, Pete. I really appreciate you, man. Thanks for having me on.

Jan 19
0

251: Taking the Leap Into your Dream…the Smart Way with Mike Lewis

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Mike Lewis says: "People... want to help way more than you realize, but you have to tell them what they can help with."

Mike Lewis shares his journey from professional private equity to professional squash and provides perspective on how/when/why to jump into what you really want to do.

You’ll Learn:

  1. When it’s time to jump
  2. The right mindset for taking your jump
  3. Actionable ways to tune into your internal voice and deepest desires

About Mike 

Mike Lewis is the Founder and CEO of When to Jump, a global curated community featuring the individuals, stories, and ideas relating to leaving something comfortable in order to pursue a passion. Launched in 2016, the platform has attracted millions of impressions through digital and print media, in-person experiences, and collaborations with leading brands including Airbnb and Lululemon. In January 2018, his book, When to Jump: If the Job You Have Isn’t the Life You Want (Henry Holt Macmillan) releases worldwide. The book features over forty case studies with insights, frameworks and guidance around when to pursue a passion.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Mike Lewis Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Mike, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Mike Lewis
Great to be here, thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’d love it if we could start… It’s fun that this is not only a fun fact but a key part of the story behind your wisdom. But could you tell us the tale behind you becoming the 112th best squash player in the world?

Mike Lewis
Sure, absolutely. And thanks again for having me, it’s a real treat to be on. I grew up in Southern California, my dad was a squash player. For those who don’t know squash, you’re in the majority. It is a sport like racquetball or even like tennis indoors, but west of New York City there really aren’t many players who compete at the high levels, particularly as a junior, as a kid.
When I was 14 years old and discovering the sport, my dad had obviously played it before. Like I said, he had played on the East Coast as a naval surgeon, and our family moved. I was born in the city, but moved to the South and then to Santa Barbara. And when I was 14, came across the sport on my own actually, ironically, at the one gym that had four courts or five courts within 100 miles from our town, and it just happened to be down the road.
So, I fell in love with it and I think I loved the idea of the adventure behind it. The idea that I could really create my own story from playing the sport, and really go my own path with it. So, at that point I thought, “I’m going to do this someday”, I just didn’t know exactly how that would happen. There was probably five of us, like I said, west of New York City, who were competing as kids. And first I had to get better to play in college and at some point I’d say, “Well, if I could do that, maybe I could get even better.”
And shortly after I started playing, there was a traveling pro who was coming through town for a tournament we hosted at our local club. And I remember I was around 14; he was I think just 5-6 years older, but described this adventure of playing a sport we both adored and using it as a way to see the world – playing on mountains in Brazil and cities in Asia and towns that dotted the Pacific. And I just knew at some point I would do that.
So, like I said, I found a way to get to play in college, I got to play for four years, I was the captain of the team my senior year, and then while I was in the working world for several years going forward after graduation I just kept it up. And I said to myself, “If I can just keep going and find a way to get better and eventually get sponsors and maybe even compete part-time, I’ll be able to maybe someday be able to do this full-time for a bit.” So, long story short, which we can get into, but I was able to do it and get as high as… And my goal was to rank 200 in the world, and I got to 112.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. It’s so funny – as you relate the story, it’s like I want to play squash and travel the world. It sounds awesome.

Mike Lewis
It really was awesome.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, now I’m just so curious. What fascinates me when it comes to professional anything, and sports I think is interesting in that world, particularly because I think if you’re like the 122th best basketball player or American football player, there are huge financial rewards. Can you enlighten us what sort of compensation does a 112th best squash player in the world see?

Mike Lewis
Well, the short answer is, not a lot. The pro squash tour is like the pro tennis tour, but the ugly stepsister, almost. So, you’ve got your Wimbledons of the world, but because we are a lot less popular, invisible and don’t have the marketing dollars and the brand sponsorships or the TV deals, there just isn’t that much money.
So, Wimbledon has several million bucks for the men’s and women’s champion; the Wimbledon in our world, the champion might bring home 50K at most. There is money in endorsements and camps and other stuff, but largely there’s just not much money. And then where I play, 112th in the world at my peak… You have to remember I started I think at 380 or something. You really are getting off the bottom in what was akin to the AAA Satellite tour – our version of Bull Durham and the minor leagues. And it’s nothing against those tournaments, but those were 16, 32 guys in a draw splitting $5,000.

Pete Mockaitis
Right, okay.

Mike Lewis
And yeah, you just wouldn’t bring much back from that. So, largely what the opportunity provided was exposure. You could get better, you could get yourself off the ground and get up the ladder a bit, but also it was the experience. A lot of these tournaments offer to pair you with host families, just like how we hosted that gentleman coming through town when I was a kid. That’s how I spent nearly every night of my 200,000-mile, 50-something country, nearly 2-year adventure. I was with other people along the way.

Pete Mockaitis
I don’t know why the first question that comes to mind when you mention all these different host families is, what have you settled in on as optimal mattresses and pillows, since you’ve tried them all?

Mike Lewis
You know what? It depends on the country and the continent. Some places I was just lucky to have… I remember my first place I stayed was right before I left Bain Capital, where I was working, I ran into a woman right nearby. I was going back to work after going to the gym, and she had told me, “Oh, you’ve got to play in the South Pacific.”
And I Googled when I went back to my office “squash in Fiji”, and a squash tournament in Tahiti popped up. And like two weeks later I was staying with the organizer of the tournament under a mosquito net in his daughter’s former childhood bedroom. It was decorated with princesses and glow-in-the-dark stars. And that, I can tell you, is not the Ritz-Carlton, but it was what I was hoping for. We picked the daughters up from school, we went to family outings, there was a birthday party at their neighbors’ that I went to, I sang karaoke. It was so much more than just the squash.

Pete Mockaitis
That is so cool. Okay, alright. So then, for everyone salivating, wanting to have their own sort of adventure in their own kind of a way, why don’t you lay out for us what’s When to Jump all about and can we hear who it’s for and why it’s important now?

Mike Lewis
Yeah, absolutely. So, When to Jump really came out of my own personal struggle to figure out when I was supposed to chase this dream. Like I said, it had been years, a decade since I first had this little voice in my head. And I was going about my job every day and I’m sure folks listening to this show can relate – you start to get a sense of circularity to your life. I knew what I had to do at work, it was fine. There was nothing too treacherous I could mess up. I kind of knew the playbook like the back of my hand. And on the other side there was this thing I really wanted to do.
So, I first Googled “when to chase dreams”, because I was like, “When do you do it?” And what I found was stuff that’s either too prescriptive, too self-helpy, or too inspirational where it’s almost just lost in the fluff of what you’re actually supposed to apply to your own life. And so, where I came out on it was, “What if I just talk to people who left something comfortable to go do what they cared about?” And I collected their stories and those stories could become proof that it wasn’t totally insane for me to do this.
And that’s what I did – I just started reaching out to people – first friends of friends, then colleagues, then passengers on the bus next to me, then a bartender down the street. And then all of a sudden as you start to peel back the layers, more and more stories became available.
And what was fascinating was that I wasn’t getting just that sexy, glossed-over photo, scoop or snapshot of the update from LinkedIn that only talks about the good stuff. This was the nitty-gritty, unsexy steps that come with chasing your dream. And people were giving highly vulnerable, real honest versions of what that looks like. And so, to me that’s what I wanted, that’s what made it feel realistic. They talked about the middle of that journey.
And so I remember speaking to a woman who was a Wall Street banker turned cyclist, and she had left Wall Street to try being a cyclist. And had largely failed for a while, but ended up making, after years and years, the Olympic team, and competed in London and then in Rio. And the conversation I thought would go something like this: “How was it to be a cyclist?”, “It was amazing, I made the Olympics.” And that would kind of be it. And instead it was: “How was it to be a cyclist?” And she was saying, “Well, here’s the hardest conversation I had with myself. Here’s what I was most scared of. Here’s what failure tasted like. Here’s why I kept going anyway.”
And when I hung up – this was January 2013 – I sketched a cover page to what I would call When to Jump. And I wanted to make a book of these stories with ideas and insights, but also to be able to create a space and a community where people could come together, have good drinks and snacks and food, and share ideas and stories with people in real life in a non-awkward, weird way, and come together.
And so, that was the idea. I told a buddy of mine I would make this someday. I put it on the back burner, I collected… I think I had one story from the US Senator from Maine Angus King – that was the one I had in the can, and then I kind of put it on the back burner, like I said.
And a year and a half later I had collected these stories totally really to give myself permission to jump. I had trained nights and weekends, I’d collected sponsors, I’d played anywhere I could, whenever I could, took sick days and holidays and half days. I had collected some sponsors using some material I’d put together at work on our own slideshow deck presentation templates, and all these different things, where all of a sudden the jump became more real.
And so, I left; I moved to New Zealand. Like I said, six months turned into nearly two years, and sadly while I was gone, my buddy, who was next to me at work, who I’d confided in around this idea of When to Jump, passed away in an accident. And at that point I said, “I need to finish this project.” And fortunately had the support of his brother and sister, and we talked and I was able to dedicate the project to him.
And over time, more people came forward with stories, from Michael Lewis, the finance author who wrote Liar’s Poker and Moneyball, The Undoing Project, to the second baseman for the Cubs who left the Cubs to go to college, all the way to the first female bishop in the Anglican church, who left PR to go into the Church.
So I had all of these interesting stories and slowly I was able to create a framework from the themes that I saw that kept coming back up again and again. And I came back in the end of 2015 and was approached by book folks, signed a book deal of this book that’s now coming out January 9: When to Jump: if the Job You Have Isn’t the Life You Want. And it’s 44 of my favorite stories with a framework that I call “the jump curve”. And it follows you through the different phases of taking a jump.
And what I found is that jumping can be for anybody. Some of us think that jumping is about changing jobs and moving to Bali and starting a company and doing drastic things. But what I found is that a jump is really having agency over your life. It’s about saying, “Okay, I want to change something, whether it’s the way that I commute to work, whether it’s a hobby that I want to develop or a new language I want to learn, or moving cities with my job, going for an internal promotion.”
But I think there’s this idea that you can do it; it just might not be pretty. And When to Jump exposes that through our community. And so when I signed the book deal, I ended up using the money to bootstrap a platform, and the platform has a bunch of different facets. We have a festival every year called Jump Club, which is part music festival, part beers with friends, part speaker series. Sheryl Sandberg keynoted our first Jump Club last year. She wrote the foreword to the book. Our festival grew nearly double to a weekend this year in New York, and I think we’ll be in London next year in October of 2018.
We started working with brands and we started to curate stories and we launched a podcast that’s now a top 10 business podcast on iTunes, all around these conversations. And so, what I found most, I think compelling, is that there isn’t one way to jump; everyone’s got their own jumps to make. But it really helps to know that you’re not alone, and that everyone goes through these hardships when they decide to make that step into the unknown. And often times the unknown is what will deliver the best parts of your jump.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright, this is juicy stuff. And I want to go in deep on the jump curve. But I want to maybe first say, I’m thinking maybe this is Step 0, if you will, but the decision that a jump is worth doing in the first place – not so much how, but whether to jump. And so I’d like to start by getting your take on, how do you go about framing up and thinking through that very initial part of the equation?

Mike Lewis
Well, the first piece of the jump curve talks about, listen to the little voice. And I think like you said, Step 0 would be to just acknowledge what you’re thinking about and what your feelings are that keep coming back, because our body doesn’t lie, as former NFL running back Rashard Mendenhall told me when I interviewed him about his jump from football into writing.
When you find yourself going to certain interests or ideas or spending your time in certain ways, those are usually telltale signs that there’s something boiling up within you. So, I don’t think there’s a perfect way to jump; I just believe that there are things you can do that will make sure it’s a positive, worthwhile experience. Because you really don’t know how it’s going to end, but you know how it can begin, and that I think takes planning and being thoughtful and following this jump curve.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright. Now when it comes to listening to the voice, can you elaborate a little bit, in terms of, what are some telltale ways that the voice or your body speaking tends to materialize? The symptoms, if you will.

Mike Lewis
Yeah, so it’s actually listen to the little voice because it’s that little voice that you hear when you go to sleep at night or wake up in the morning, thinking about. It’s something that’s kind of nagging at you, but you’ve always ignored. And I think for me, I knew that that fear of not listening to it would ultimately be more scary of having to deal with it, just echoing and echoing and sitting there for years and years. Then if I tried it – if I planned and proceeded forward with my jump – even if it didn’t work out, if I did it the right way, if I took the right steps, it would be close enough to saying, “Hey, I tried. It didn’t work, but I did it.”
And I think that often times that little voice is right, and we do a lot to drown it out, whether it’s through staying super busy, through working late unnecessarily, through making our calendar super jam packed – there are a lot of things we do to try to drown out that noise. And so if you can just find some silence in your day – I know that sounds really cheesy – I am in San Francisco, we have to be pretty crunchy out here. But I would say if you can wake up and say, “Okay, for five minutes today I’m just going to sit and be bored.”
There is a reason that we come up with our best ideas in places like the shower, where we can just sit and have nothing to do but let ourselves think and unwind. Our brains aren’t programmed to be stimulated to the extent that social media and smart phones and notifications demand of us. So if you overwork them, they don’t have the chance to start to loosen and let different juices flow. And I think that’s where you get that little voice. That’s where you can really start, is to say, “Okay, let’s try to take out some of these noisy distractions, let’s lower some of the other voices and let’s listen to what this little one has to say.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that’s awesome. Alright, so then what’s the next step?

Mike Lewis
The next step is to make a plan. So we go from the aspirational to more the pragmatic. And within that step there are three pieces. One is financial planning – obviously you want to make sure that you’re jumping with some sort of cushion to really give this a go, and you don’t want to jump before that’s prudent.
The second piece is pre-jump practice, and that means really understanding what your jump is before you go. So, if you want to go start a furniture shop and selling furniture, you’ve got to learn about how to open a business. Maybe you should talk to small business owners. You’ve got to probably shadow or learn from a master handyman or a furniture maker. Maybe you start by watching YouTube videos. There’s a lot of things you can do just to start preparing for that step well before you have to jump. And that’s the pre-jump practice.
And then the third piece is safety net sewing. So I worked at Bain Capital for many years before I left to play squash, because I knew that if that jump didn’t work, and even if this jump doesn’t work, I would have a foundation. I had good reputation I think, decent enough; I worked on good projects and interesting deals; I got along with my superiors and others. And so, doing that type of legwork is actually really important, because I think for me at least, I’m not courageous enough to just drop everything and jump. I really need to feel like I’m supported, and Bain was very supportive when I ultimately decided to go. So those are the things that at a high level go into making a plan.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I really dig that. And so I’d like to get into a bit of detail with some of these here. Now when it comes to the financial plan, different people prescribe different sort of metrics or X month savings. What’s your take on what is financially cushioned enough?

Mike Lewis
Well, it’s funny. I think that it really is interesting when you peel back all the layers of what you actually need to live. You’ve got electricity, you’ve got water, probably let’s say that you need to have the Internet, you’ve got grocery bills, you’ve got your rent or your mortgage. You’ve got to have some sort of miscellaneous for external spending purposes, but what is that – five categories? Those are not 30 categories, those are not, “I want to dress in this certain way or drive this certain car or get this certain latte after work.”
And so, people think that financial planning is actually tough. What it is is really just being disciplined; it’s actually just cutting stuff rather than trying to say, “I need to go extreme and not spend a dollar.” You have finite fixed, hard costs – that’s not what we’re saying to change. It’s more like, on the margin, what can you start to tuck away? I’ll give you an example: If you cannot get a latte every day, you save $4-$5 each day for a year – that’s nearly $2,000 in your pocket. That’s a pretty good cushion to start your jump on.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool, thank you. And when it comes to safety net sewing, I’d love to hear your take on, I guess the opposite point of view, which is, I don’t know – who was the famous general – the “burn the boats” guy. It’s like, that’s what made the soldiers fight oh so fiercely, is they had no option of retreat. And you’re proposing just the opposite – don’t burn those boats. Nay, craft an excellent boat. How do you think through these two sets of ideas on that?

Mike Lewis
Well, it’s funny because when we get going a little bit, it will actually be a little bit of both, and I’ll explain that to you when we talk again soon on the next steps. But the “burn the boats” piece is actually right to some degree. And like I said, there’s a part of that that’s true. But first you should make that boat really, really nice, and I’ll tell you why – because there are going to be people from your old life and your old jump that will come in again and again – references to you as you go for a new job, potential investors in your company or idea, customers of your new products.
And so, it just behooves you to not say, “Well, screw it. Guns blazing, middle fingers up, I’m out of here”, because the world is small, especially if you’re going to, let’s say, leave a cafe or a restaurant to start your own restaurant – you might want to hire someone from there eventually, you might want to get reviews from that person who runs the restaurant that you’re leaving, you might want to get tips on suppliers to buy from. So, there’s just a lot to do in terms of really maintaining a great relationship.
And I’m not saying that you will cross paths with those people and I think we’ll get to why it’s important to only look forward when you jump and not be half-in, half-out, but I think it will give you a piece of mind to feel like, “Maybe I’ll never run into these people again, but they all know why I’m leaving. If they were called by someone at some point needed to show a reference for me, they would say, ‘You know what? Mike’s a good guy. He’s not all over the place. He didn’t just show up one day, give us the finger and quit. He told us what he wanted to do.’”
When I started to play squash tournaments on the side, I told everybody because they got bought into it. And so later when the squash tour became a real possibility, they knew that I was looking towards doing that, they knew it was something I cared about. It would have been a lot harder to massage that story if I just brought it up on everyone one day. And sure, I could have done that, but now I look forward and the people that I let really understand my journey are folks that are still trying to be a productive piece to this next jump. And so I think that’s why you want to be able to sew the safety net.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool. Alright, so have the Step 0 and Step 1, and what comes next?

Mike Lewis
So, the piece after that, which is really the hardest part, is to say, “Okay, you’ve planned as much as you can. Now you just have to take a jump and let yourself be lucky.” So that’s Step 3. And that’s a quote that Michael Lewis, the finance author, gave, which is, “If you look for luck you’ll actually find it.” It’s like when he described looking for money on the ground. Grown-ups leave it everywhere. You can find it, you just have to be open to it.
And the same goes for making a jump. If you look for those opportunities, if you make the plans, if you put down the pieces to what I call “let yourself collide with other people and things” – your odds are you’re going to find that luck. You just don’t know it until you jump. And obviously that’s just tough, because we as humans I think are rational to some degree, and when you leave a job you know what you’re giving up in salary, benefits, comforts, etcetera, but if you don’t know everything you’re getting in return on the next thing – that’s super hard.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear you. So you’re leaving a very clearly known, quantifiable piece for a quite unknown, unquantifiable upfront piece. So, could you give us some examples with regard to finding money lying around or colliding with people and opportunities? How does that appear in practice?

Mike Lewis
In what it looks like?

Pete Mockaitis
Right.

Mike Lewis
I think that what it is is, you don’t know what you don’t know. So, it’s really putting out a voice to it. It’s kind of going back to that little voice – you’ve now turned the voice up a lot. And so you’re saying, in my example, “I’m leaving, I’m moving to New Zealand. Everyone knows I love squash. Would love anyone’s thoughts”, etcetera. And the classic thing is, what happened?
Someone said, “Well, you should stay when you’re in Australia with my good friend who used to belong to my gym and he just moved with his family down there.” And then when I got down there, I met up with this gentleman and stayed with his family and they said, “Well, we have an extra apartment; we just moved. It was a corporate housing thing. Do you want to stay there?”
So all of a sudden I’m staying at no extra cost to stay with this gentleman and his family, and then he says, “Well, you should meet a friend of mine, who’s got a great podcast.” And it was Rob Bell. And I go on Rob Bell’s podcast last year as I was developing When to Jump, and through that podcast I received stories that are now in the book that’s coming out January 9 from people that were listening, and received amazing help from friends of mine who I would never have met, except for that they were listeners to Rob Bell’s podcast. And Rob Bell once surfed with a guy that I stayed with because our mutual friend heard my story in the gym locker room in Boston two months before I left.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that.

Mike Lewis
That could go on forever too.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh yeah. And it feels like an adventure. You think about the great sort of fantasy novels or movies of our time – that’s what happens. You go forth and then something happens, which leads to something else, which leads to something else, and it’s kind of unpredictable and cool and exciting. So, I dig it.
So, all you really did was say to the whole world, “This is what is happening, this is what I’m doing. Would love your input.” And then away it goes. And so, I think it’s pretty cool. It seems like there’s value in doing that, both in the broad and general “Hey everybody” Facebook, LinkedIn world – “This is what I’m doing”, as well as in the particular, like, “Hey, you lived in New Zealand for a little while. What do you know?” And so, kind of going in both directions there.

Mike Lewis
Absolutely. I remember having a spreadsheet where I’d just fill in anyone who had an idea for me once I said I was leaving. I think the thing that people really miss in a lot of this is telling other people about what you want to do, because people want to help. And they want to help way more than you realize, but you have to tell them what they can help with.

Pete Mockaitis
I love it. Okay, next step.

Mike Lewis
So the last one is, and this is the fourth and final step – don’t look back. And so that is the “burning the boats” one, is you don’t just kind of say, “Well, if this doesn’t work, I’ll always go back, or maybe I’ll do this three days a week, then two days here, and I’ll do this nights and weekends.” Because at some point you’ve just got to be all in.
And that’s what “don’t look back” means, is once you say you’re in, don’t look around and say, “I wonder if this is really what I should be doing. I wonder what my friends would think. What if this doesn’t work?” You just have to be all in. And I know it’s really hard, but when you jump you can only look straight ahead.
And we’ve got in the book cases of failures and jumps that didn’t work out, and I think that’s what makes it real and understandable to say, “It might not be what I thought it would be, but it’s still going to be productive because I’m doing along the lines of what I enjoy.” And I think that’s super important, is when you jump to say, “This is going to work and I’m not going to second-guess myself twice.”

Pete Mockaitis
Now it’s interesting, as I’m thinking about my own jump, leaving Bain Consulting this time, not Capital, which you were talking about how everyone confuses them. But when I left and said I want to do training stuff, speaker stuff; learning and development is what fires me up the most… So I guess talking about “don’t look back” – I had a spreadsheet talking about the financial planning piece, and I suppose I had some standard in which I say I will quit at this point.
And I guess my standard might be somewhat extreme or aggressive – it’s like, “I will stop this if I have $0. I will not go into sort of insolvency or a negative net worth, but I am going to spend every dollar I have.” And so, I guess in terms of “all in”, you can call that 100% but not 120%, in terms of my “all in” this. And so, I’d love to get your perspective on that. Are there any sort of parameters or rules or tripwire covenants? I can think of “all in”, even though it sounds absolutist, still, on a bit of a spectrum.

Mike Lewis
Yeah. There’s a great line that Ethan Eyler, who invented the Lyft mustache, if you remember that. He was a videogame marketer before he invented this mustache that could go on cars. And he says when you’re taking a jump – he’s actually featured in the book too – he says there is this “van down by the river” fear. I think that’s in a book called Cubicle Nation that talks about it, where you think that you’re just going to be a failure living in a van down by the river.
And that never really happens. It does in some cases, but that’s pretty rare, and it’s mostly in our mind of like the biggest failure possible. So, I think what you described is the right one, which is, “I’ve made a plan-ish. I’m as sure as I can be, and now I’m going to go for it.” And I think that’s the way you’ve got to be; otherwise then why jump?

Pete Mockaitis
Alright, I’m with you. And I love it; I think that you’re right with the van down by the river. I remember I was thinking, “What happens if I spend my very last dollar?” And I thought, “Well, it’s not like I’m going to be homeless on the streets. It’s just I’ll have to pick a job that I might not find so interesting.” I always told myself that I would be doing cheese strategy, like some job at a giant corporate consumer packaged goods company like Kraft, doing cheese or something. I’m not passionate about, but I’m sure probably is interesting in its own ways. It just says optimization is intrinsically interesting for me and working with smart people, but it doesn’t light me up at the core. That’s really what is it stake, is, “Either we’re doing this or we’re doing cheese strategy. You’re not dying in the gutter.”

Mike Lewis
Right, exactly. You’re not going to die in the gutter.

Pete Mockaitis
Quote it! That’s the big quote for you: “You’re not going to die in the gutter.” Cool. And so then, a lot of these jumps have been in the career context. I’d love to get your perspective – you mentioned that sometimes when you’re referring to jumps it’s about hobbies or learning something new. How should we think about jumps in those contexts, where you can totally just keep doing the same job, but you’re still experiencing that adventure and that jump commitment action?

Mike Lewis
Yeah, I call it “internal jumping” and I think there’s three ways you can mix things up through the city you’re in, the office location, especially if you’re with a beer company. If you’re at the cheese company, you could do cheese marketing in Wisconsin or in France. You can change products – you can go from cheese to detergents if it’s a consumer packaged goods company, or maybe you could go from selling cheese and marketing it to the product and engineering of it. And so, that’s kind of like a role and type of jump switch.
And so, I think those three things or any combination of them would really lead to something that would be stimulating, because it changes that circularity. I interviewed on our podcast – I think it comes out in a few weeks – former CEO of eBay John Donahoe, who’s actually the former CEO of Bain as well. And he talks about this product or this concept, and I’m not going to remember the guy’s name, but he calls it “repotting”, which is this idea that every 10 years or 7 years or so you want to repot – take yourself out of one pot, put into another and let roots grow again.
And John actually, if you look at what he did at eBay, they would regularly switch cubicles of folks so that people can mix up and meet other people. And I think there are just things like that. Even going to work a different way or talking to the person on the bus next to you – that type of thing can mix things up and it’s a super incremental micro jump.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. So, Mike, tell us – what do you think would be the very first step if someone is having a little bit of that little voice going on? And is it just a matter of making time for the silence and the boredom, or what would be the very first thing you do?

Mike Lewis
Yeah, I would say, absolutely. The thing that’s no-stress, low-touch, light-weight, easy to do would be – and I do this every day – take five minutes in the morning before you look at technology, write in a journal, or maybe just make a Google doc or Evernote or whatever it is, and write down the things that you thought you did well yesterday. Get yourself into a mindset to be thinking of the positives.
And then if you want, start with one thing a day you’re going to get done, like a 24-hour goal. That stuff’s really easy. The CEO of 1-800-GOT-JUNK? told me about that – Brian Scudamore. And you can be as bite-size as, “Okay, I’m going to research things I’m interested in today” or, “I’m going to talk to a musician.” Something that just makes you curious. And I think if you give that 5, 10 minutes to yourself each morning, you’re going to get a little bit closer to that thing and that’ll get you on that curve. It’ll get your voice to kind of grow a bit. It’ll tune it up rather than tune it out.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright, cool. Well, Mike, tell me – anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Mike Lewis
Yeah, I would just say if you want to learn more, our website’s WhenToJump.com. Our podcast is also called When to Jump, and you can find it on our website, also on iTunes and all that good stuff. We have a newsletter where we keep our community up-to-date once a month. Actually we just sent out our monthly one this morning. And then of course the book comes out January 9. So, I spent the better part of several years putting what I hope will be together the resources, the tools, the ideas and the people that give people a sense of permission. And I hope people enjoy the book, and obviously I would love to hear from you if you end up reading it.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. Alright, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Mike Lewis
I would say I’d have to quote my cousin Sheryl Sandberg, who wrote the foreword to the book, and to paraphrase her it would be – a question that I go back to, that she goes back to again and again is what she would do if she wasn’t afraid? And I think that’s the most important question we can ask ourselves.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And how about a favorite study or experiment or a bit of research?

Mike Lewis
I thought that Manoush Zomorodi, who wrote the book Bored and Brilliant basically found a way to see if we could lower the interactions we have on our cell phones and social media and all that, and see what kind of result that would produce. And it turns out that it makes us happier.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, perfect. And do you have a quick tip, a bit from there, in terms of if we wanted to get a little piece of that value, what should we do?

Mike Lewis
Yeah. One thing that you can do that’s super easy, which was amazing is, when you commute to work, try not to have your phone on you. So not even in your pockets – put it in your backpack or purse. It does wonders. I actually now leave it when I go to the gym. And it’s little things like that to disassociate; it really will rewire your mind and let you be bored.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, cool. And how about a favorite book?

Mike Lewis
Memoir-wise I would say Shoe Dog by Phil Knight and his story of starting Nike – the ultimate jump start in many ways. And then in a more serious and kind of meaningful tone would be Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, a holocaust survivor and an absolutely extraordinary man. I think everyone should read that book.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And how about a favorite tool?

Mike Lewis
I really like the microphone I use when I travel for podcasts. I know I don’t know what this one is I’m using now, but when I travel I have an H1 microphone and recording set. And it’s just awesome; it’s really simple and small and you can actually have a lot of fun with it. You can record yourself and notes to yourself, you can record conversations, podcasts, interviews. It’s very cool.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, excellent, thank you. And how about a favorite habit?

Mike Lewis
It’s funny you ask that. Last night I actually for the first time looked back at how many mornings I’ve written in my journal to start the day. And I just write. I don’t really read it again, I just write down yesterday’s synopsis – kind of what I said earlier. And I knew I started January of 2015, I’m wrapping up my third year, and this year and last year I’ve written 140,000 words each, which is pretty surreal to me.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, are you saying that you’ve got pretty nice consistency, in terms of every single day rocking out there?

Mike Lewis
Every single day. It doesn’t even occur to me not to do it now. So it’s just habits.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. And is there a particular nugget or piece that you share that seems to really resonate with your audience and community, and it gets them kind of retweeting and quoting it back to you?

Mike Lewis
Yeah, I think that it’s, “Think of when you’re 80 years old and you look back on your life. What are you going to be most proud of? What stories will you make for yourself?” And I think that’s what drives people to jump.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, you say WhenToJump.com is where it’s at?

Mike Lewis
WhenToJump.com – it’s the home base for us. Our newsletter sign-up is on there, podcast, you can pre-order the book. And starting in February of 2018 we will have a Jump Ambassador program, which will be a 10-week intensive online course for people who want to meet 19 other RAD applicants that have been selected from around the world, and get closer to their jump. So all that can be found on the site, WhenToJump.com.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, RAD makes me think of Silicon Valley.

Mike Lewis
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, boy. And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Mike Lewis
Well, I would just say, write down what your goal is. It’s a perfect time to say, at the end of 2018, what does your job look like? What are you doing? How are you crushing it, to say it in Silicon Valley terms?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool. Well, Mike, thanks so much for taking this time and sharing the goods. I wish you and all of your jumpers lots of luck in their adventures!

Mike Lewis
Thank you for having me. It’s pleasure to be on. I hope this was helpful.