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Communication

Jan 12

248: What Professional Speakers Do…that You Should too with Grant Baldwin

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Grant Baldwin says: "Your slide should be an enhancement not a replacement for your talk."

Professional speaking guru Grant Baldwin shares lessons learned for becoming a better public speaker.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The one thing that distinguishes professional speakers from the rest
  2. Top things NOT to do when presenting
  3. Helpful ways to make a huge upgrade to your presentation skills

About Grant 

Grant is a veteran speaker who started his public speaking career as a youth pastor. Since then, he has given thousands of presentations in conferences, assemblies, conventions, and other events.  He is the host of The Speaker Lab, a podcast that helps other speakers start, build, and grow their business.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Pete Mockaitis
Grant, thanks so much for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Grant Baldwin
Pete, it’s like Christmas morning waking up, looking at the calendar and saying, “Today I get to talk to Pete,” and it’s here, the moment has arrived. And it’s like accepting an Academy Award or something.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, you probably say that to all your interviewers.

Grant Baldwin
You know what, you can go back to all of them. I don’t know that I’ve ever said that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to chat with you, boy, because we met years ago when you generously volunteered to speak at my HOBY, Hugh O’Brian Youth Leadership, seminar back in Champaign-Urbana, and I’ve just been watching you from afar.

Grant Baldwin
How many years ago was that?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, it is in the ballpark of ten.

Grant Baldwin
Yeah, I would say eight to ten.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, so I’ve just been watching you from afar with your podcast and what you’ve been doing, and I said, “Well, hey, wait a second. I think there’s a fit here.” So, I want to dig into a lot of the learnings that you have developed and shared with all of your clients through The Speaker Lab.

Grant Baldwin
Okay. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Before we do that, I just did a quick search. I couldn’t help myself. June of 2009.

Pete Mockaitis
2009, yeah.

Grant Baldwin
There you go.

Pete Mockaitis
Eight and a half. Wow. And good organization.

Grant Baldwin
Well, I remember it’s a fun event.

Pete Mockaitis
Plus, the title is a pretty searchable keyword that won’t trip too many other things.

Grant Baldwin
It’s in the archives.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. So, yeah, I want to chat about some of your insights discovered and shared with your Speaker Lab clientele. But, first, I thought every speaker has a pretty wild story when it comes to their travel and their mishaps. Could you share with us one of your most hilariously awesome tales or a tale that comes from one of the speakers you worked with?

Grant Baldwin
Yeah, so I’ll give you both. I’ll give you both quickly. So, one that happened to me, I remember, several years ago was I was speaking at an event in Colorado and flying from Denver to Chicago, and then was going to, once I get into Chicago, had something like a two-hour drive into somewhere in Illinois or, I don’t know, what would that be, Eastern Iowa.

And so, I was in Denver and a big blizzard, snowstorm or something comes blowing in and it’s just dumping snow and we’re on the plane, the plane is delayed, delayed, delayed, delayed. So, they’re finally get ready to take off, and at this point it is something like 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. And so, by the time I land in Chicago it’s like 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning, got to drive a couple of hours, so I haven’t really slept.

And I remember just being in a daze of driving a couple of hours, getting to the venue, and I remember being like delirious, like brushing my teeth in the parking lot of the venue where I was getting ready to speak, and just feeling trashed and exhausted, and just feeling like, “You know, this is the glamorous life of a speaker.” So, yeah, a few of those type of war stories have happened a few times.

Pete Mockaitis
But, if I may, I got to push for the ending. How did the speech go? And what did the clients say? And did you collect your money?

Grant Baldwin
It went well. It went well. In fact, I was supposed to give two talks, and there was something of a break in between, and so I asked, I said, “Hey, if it’s okay I need to go back to the hotel and just zonk for a little bit, and then for the second talk I’m going to be in much better shape,” and they generously let me do that, and it went great. Yeah, it went fine. It worked out well.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. Heroics when it comes to the toothbrushing in the parking lot? It reminds me once I was doing some consulting and we were eating cereal from a vending machine out of a Styrofoam cup with a plastic spork while wearing a hairnet in a cookie factory, I’m like, “This is the glamorous life.”

Grant Baldwin
This is the life. Exactly. This is the part that nobody gets to see.

Pete Mockaitis
Right. Okay. So that’s yours. You said you had one of the clients too.

Grant Baldwin
Yes. This wasn’t a client but a friend of mine, but they’re speaking at something and they go to check in at the hotel, and I guess there was some type of a guy on the hunt, manhunt going on in the area for some criminal for something. So, friend of mine checks into the hotel, and he looks like the dude apparently, whoever this criminal was.

So. gets to his room, a few minutes later the phone rings, and it is the front desk, or, no, excuse me, it’s the police, and they’re like, “Hey, it’s the police and we’re outside your door. You need to come out.” And he’s thinking like, “Yeah, whatever. It’s a joke. Someone is pranking me.” Hangs up the phone. A couple of minutes they call back, and they’re like seriously come at the door, people were banging on the door.

He opens the door, looks down like each end of the hallway is SWAT team, barking dogs, guns drawn, like the works.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes.

Grant Baldwin
And just total case of mistaken identity there, but he’s just like, “I’m traumatized.” So, there’s that side of it, too, which seems much more mentally and emotionally damaging thing than having to brush your teeth in a parking lot.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes. Thank you. You really delivered on that. I thought, “Okay, I hope we have a good travel story.” And I cannot conceive of a better one.

Grant Baldwin
It’s pretty rough.

Pete Mockaitis
SWAT teams and being surrounded beats, “I was really delayed on a flight, and it was bad.” So, thank you for bringing that. So, now, can you share with us, okay, The Speaker Lab, what’s it all about? What are you trying to do there?

Grant Baldwin
So, I was a full-time speaker for about seven, eight years or so, and a lot in the education space was doing anywhere from 50 to 70 events a year, and had a lot of people who asked me about speaking. A lot of people were intrigued, “Hey, how do I become a speaker? How do I get into this?” And so, we started doing a couple of different online trainings around this subject and topic, and just found there’s a lot of people that teach the art side, the presentation side, “Here’s how you put together a good talk. Here’s how you make a good presentation. Here’s how you put your slides together and all that stuff.” But there wasn’t a lot of people that were teaching the business side.
Yeah, but how do you actually find a gig? How do know how much to charge? How do you know how to take care and work with a client? And so, we started to put together some trainings around that, and that’s a lot of what we do today is we do a free podcast and then we also have various trainings and coaching opportunities, and basically just help people create and build a plan and a step-by-step system for how to consistently find and book speaking engagements.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s cool. Well, so, and I would like to dig into, in fact, the art of speaking itself more so for this conversation as it’s applicable to our audience of professionals employed in various places. So, I guess I’m intrigued to see, when you’re working with folks, what do you see most commonly as the differentiator between someone who is like, “Okay, yeah, they’re decent at speaking,” to, “Oh, I’m looking at a professional here,” when it comes to their delivery? Could you sort of paint that picture for what makes the difference?

Grant Baldwin
Yeah, I think one of the big things that makes a difference, and something that anyone could do, is a lot of it comes down to the preparation and the practice or the rehearsal that they put into it. And I think oftentimes there’s this misconception that the best speakers in the world just get up on stage and they just make it up and they just wing it and shoot from the hip, and it all just naturally comes out, and you’re like, “They’re just naturally good.”

And, yeah, there are some maybe level of natural charisma that some people may have, but at the same time the best speakers on the planet spend an enormous amount of time really going over the material, really learning it, refining it, and practicing it, and rehearsing and preparing so by the time they get up on stage it looks natural, it looks like they’re just making it up, it looks like they’re just winging, when it’s something they’ve really spent a lot of time on.

So, I think that’s an easy thing for anybody in any type of context, whether you want to be a professional speaker or someone who, “I’ve got to give two or three presentations a year in my company or my business or some type of local organization or civic group,” just spending the time to really work on your material and to practice it and go over it makes a huge, huge difference.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s so good. Now, what comes to mind for me is a comedian. They make it look so natural, “Oh, they’re so funny. They just have all these jokes that are great.” But behind the scenes they’ve been testing them and used many jokes that didn’t work and bombed and embarrassed themselves at smaller venues. And so there it is, the practice and the rehearsals happening behind the scenes.

So, I know the number is going to vary wildly but maybe just if you imagine a context in which, “Hey, we’ve got this professional who has maybe a 30-minute chunk of an important presentation to be delivered in a conference room maybe to a combined set of stakeholders from some executives to some partners that the company works with.” Could you maybe lay it out for us, like what is the price of excellence? Is it like for an hour? Or is it 50 hours? Is it 500 hours?

Grant Baldwin
Yeah, so one of the things that you touched on there is some of it depends on the stakes and the context of the setting, meaning that, let’s say, for example, you’ve got to give a 30-minute talk to some friends and it’s kind of a casual type of setting. Yeah, you’re probably going to spend less time on it versus like you’re pitching some type of business or idea or opportunity, and this is like make or break for your career, you’re probably going to spend a lot more time on it.

So, I don’t know that there’s necessarily a right or wrong answer, but typically the higher the stake the more time you’re going to put into it. So, I can kind of walk you through, this will be helpful, like how I would go about preparing for something like that.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, let’s hear it.

Grant Baldwin
The bigger the stakes for the type of event, I typically start with, well, I’ll do a couple just for some more context. If I’m speaking at something, I typically want to use material that I’ve given before, that I’ve used before, that I’ve told before that I know that work. Let’s say, for this context, like someone has never given a talk before, they have nothing to pull from. In that setting you want to be really, really clear about what’s the point of the presentation, what’s the point of the talk, what’s the main idea that you want to get to.

So, there may be talks that we’ve all sat through and listened through that you’re just kind of be, “Yeah, it’s interesting or it’s good or entertaining or whatever,” but like, “I’m not really sure what the point of it was and I’m not really sure where this was going.” So, are you trying to get someone to take action? Are you trying to convince someone? Are you trying to persuade someone? Are you trying to inspire or motivate or encourage? Like, what’s the point of the talk? So, being clear on that.

From there you can kind of reverse-engineer or work backwards. So, what I would do is once you kind of have that main idea is then you can just kind of brainstorm and come up with anything related to that idea. So, maybe it’s a story, maybe it’s a stat, maybe it’s an image, maybe it’s a video, maybe it’s a point, a principle, a quote, just anything you can think of, no filter, just brainstorming anything you can think of related to that topic.

From there you can start to put together a bit of a skeleton outline of, “All right. If I’m going to make this key point, then what’s like the natural progression that I need to follow in order to take the audience to that place?” And then you can kind of put together an outline and kind of fill in some of the meat from there. So, what I would do, personally, is I like to manuscript it out, and I manuscript it not from the standpoint of, “Hey, I need to have a script that I’m going to remember and memorize word for word.” That’s not the point of it.

The point of it, though, is I really want to take the time to get like all the thoughts down on paper to make sure that it all naturally flows well together. So, Pete, if you were to ask me, “Tell me about whenever you proposed to your wife.” Like I can tell you that story off the top of my head because I lived it. But I bet if I sat down and really took some time to, “Okay, let me think about the day, let me think about the weather, the context, what happened, who did we call, who did we talk to, what happened next, how did we respond, how did she respond, how did I respond.” All the details of it, my guess would be a much, much better, more compelling, more interesting and engaging story.

And so that’s kind of the point is you’re really just trying to like get down on paper everything related to that topic, the point, the story, where you’re going with it so that by the time you’re ready to tell it there is more structure, there is more meat to it. And whenever I’m working on, in terms of practicing and rehearsing and going over it, I’m not trying to go over from the standpoint of, “Here’s a script that I have to memorize, that I have to know word for word.” I want to make sure that I understand the gist of it, the idea of it, the essence of it of where I’m going with the presentation and with the talk, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be this word-for-word script that I’m trying to memorize.

So, if you’re in front of an audience and you are singing some popular song or the national anthem, and you screw up the lyrics, like everybody knows it. But if you’re giving a talk or presentation, and like, “Oh, I forgot my line,” or, “I told the story out of order,” the audience has no idea, like it makes no impact, it makes no difference to them.

So, you’re not trying to memorize a script where you’re like, “I need to know every single word of what I’m saying,” and it becomes this robotic regurgitation of words, but I just need to know where I’m going, and I need to know how I want to tell this story or make this point so that the talk is much more prepared and practiced or rehearsed rather than just getting up and winging it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Now, when you say manuscripts, so then you’re saying that, in fact, you are writing every word but you’re not worried about saying every word. Is that fair?

Grant Baldwin
Correct. Exactly. Yup, so I would type, and I think, I mean, everybody’s different but I think, for a lot of us, we write or we type the way we would speak. So, I’m trying to, as I’m typing something out, I’m typing it out like thinking through, like, “How would I actually say this? If I’m standing in front of an audience, how would I actually be communicating it and making sure that I’m writing it in that way?”

Now, again, it’s not from the standpoint of, “This is exactly how I must say this.” Now, there’s going to be a couple key things, maybe a key point or a real main idea that you’re like, “These are the 10 words in this order, and I need to say it this way because, hmm, that works.”

Pete Mockaitis
“Ask not what you can do…” Oh, listen up already.

Grant Baldwin
Yeah, you got to know that stuff but for the most part, most of the pieces within the talk you need to know the idea of it and the essence of it without feeling like, “I need to know verbatim, word for word, how to tell this seven-minute story.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, I dig that. So, you’re actually typing as opposed to recording and transcribing.

Grant Baldwin
Correct. Yup.

Pete Mockaitis
And so that’s just kind of your flavor, and that works for you, and that’s helpful. Thank you. So, what I like there…

Grant Baldwin
Yeah. Well, let’s just say I don’t think there’s a right or wrong way to go about either. Like that’s what I do, whereas I know some people who, they prefer to handwrite things out. Like, you mentioned, some people like to transcribe or some people like to have bullet points of an outline, and that’s what they go off of, and they kind of fill in the blanks as they go. And to each their own. I think that the more you speak the more you kind of figure out what makes sense and what works for you and just your preference and your style.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, it’s going to vary how much time it takes, but as you laid it out there it’s like the level of thought you’re giving it is the level of the individual word as opposed to, “Well, I’m going to kind of talk about point one, then point two, then point three. Okay, I’m ready.”

Grant Baldwin
Correct, yup. Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, then, it sounds like there’s a wide variation in terms of just how much prep is enough prep. But could you give us, I know numbers are hazardous but I want to hammer home the point that I think is in your head. So, if it’s moderate stakes, 20 minutes of talk and new content, how much prep is like the bare minimum you think a person should invest?

Grant Baldwin
Yeah, if you’re doing 20 minutes of content, I mean, from I just found out I’ve got to give 20 minutes to giving the presentation, I’m probably looking at maybe five hours’ worth of just like really… again, it depends on the stakes of it, but anywhere from three to five hours, I would say, because it takes time to really… it’s not like you’re going to sit down and you’re going to type for 20 minutes and it all are going to naturally come out, and then you’re going to go over, time to turn it, it’s ready to go. It just takes time to go over it.

I think, also, the more often you are speaking and the more that you’re generating content, or the more that you’re learning new material, the quicker and more efficient you get at it. The first time you do anything is not nearly going to be as efficient as the time when you do it the hundredth time. So, the more you do something the more comfortable you’re going to start to feel with it as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Perfect. So, I dig that. So, then, that ratio that’s like nine to 15 times or so of prep time to content time, and I think that’s just handy because I’ve been in a position where the team works long and hard on the underlying backend data and the slide creation and locking down the deck just perfectly, and then very little time on, “So, how are we going to say this if we really want to be persuasive or inspiring?”

And so, I think if I could touch upon that for a moment, how does one be all the more persuasive and inspiring? Because, in some ways, I think speeches are easier if your goal is to like, “I’m going to inform them about this. By the end of the speech they will now know about this thing that I’ve told them about.” I think that’s kind of an easier hurdle to clear or goal to hit. But when it comes to like human beings having their hearts stirred and wanting to take action, boy, what’s the secret sauce to making that happen?

Grant Baldwin
Well, I would say this, I think that motivating other people to do something is very, very difficult. Like, at the end of the day, I can’t make someone else do something. So, one thing that I think is very powerful and effective that I think anybody can use is stories, and ideally first-person stories. So, that’s something that I tend to use a lot of whenever I speak is first-person stories, stories that I’ve actually lived.

So, yeah, sure you can tell, “Let me tell you about this story from the 1930s, and here’s this person who overcame this thing, and here’s how it all worked out in the end.” Like that’s great and there’s a place for that but, at the same time, saying, “Here’s something I experienced, something I lived, and something that I did.”

And, you know what, sometimes we think like it has to be some crazy, impactful, like, “I climbed Mt. Everest blind in shorts, and I lived to tell about it.” It doesn’t necessarily have to be that. I think, again, that’s kind of a misconception with speaking is that, “I can’t become a speaker because I haven’t done or overcome some crazy obstacle.”

So, like in my case, I’m a white male from the Midwest who’s had a pretty normal life. Like, on paper there’s no reason I should be a speaker. But the funny thing is you don’t have to overcome some crazy obstacle in order to be a speaker. Just you sharing your own personal experience, or sharing life from and sharing things that you have learned can certainly be valuable to an audience because your audience, most people haven’t climbed Mt. Everest blind in shorts.

Most people are just, they’re normal people going through their daily lives. And hearing someone else is doing it and hearing someone else has overcome something or accomplished something can be extremely impactful for them. So, using stories is really, really, really powerful, and stories can be used in a variety of different ways. But from just motivating and inspiring and connecting with an audience, just as human beings, like we’re really, really drawn to stories, so I highly recommend that as a tool for any speaker.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, I like what you said, and earlier we had Dr. Carmen Simon talking about what makes great stories memorable. And often, she said, them being relatable is what trumps being sort of dramatic with regard to their emotions. So, what makes a story good then? It may not need to be super epic tales of Everest, but what sort of separates a great story from an okay story?

Grant Baldwin
Well, I would totally echo the relatable part. So, I’m thinking through several of the stories that I tell on a regular basis. So, stories like the skydiving and just the funny experience that happened with that, or going to Disney World with my daughters and how funny interaction that we had, or as a teenager, toilet papering a friend’s house and getting busted, or my very first car and all the problems that I had with that.

None of these are just like, “Then I met the President and this happened, and then I was on the secret ops mission, and then this happened. And then I won the Olympic gold medal.” So, it’s like this is normal human everyday stuff. Like anytime I tell a story about my first car, anybody in the audience has had a first car and they can relate to it, or something that’s gone wrong.

Even like you mentioned the travel thing at the beginning, is like those are just relatable normal, like human things that we have had, “Oh, let me tell you my travel story. And here’s what happened to me.” Just relatable human stuff that people can connect with. I remember hearing General Colin Powel speak several years ago, and it was great. He was a phenomenal speaker. And I think, at the time, or maybe he had been the Secretary of Defense, I believe, something to that effect.

And so, he’s telling a really cool story about being on Air Force One, and on and on, and you’re just like, “That’s pretty cool, but, like, I’ve never been on the Air Force One and I don’t see that in my future anytime soon.” So, it feels like there’s some level of disconnect, versus like, “Hey, let me tell you about my first car,” and you probably had a similar thing.

Or, “Here’s a funny experience I had with my kids,” and you may have experienced something similar. Or, “Here’s something that happened in a restaurant,” or traveling, or whatever, that is just a relatable type of thing that a high percentage of the audience is going to be like, “Oh, yeah, totally understand that, totally get that, and I’m with you as you’re telling the story.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Yeah, I dig that. Thank you. And so, now, I’m wondering a little bit in terms of thinking about you in the audience of another speaker. It just makes me wonder, given the eye and the ear that you’ve developed by beholding many a presenter, can you share, are there a few things that are sort of like, “Dude, or lady, cut that out. This is an annoying suboptimal habit or thing that presenters do that has just no place and needs to stop”? Are there a few like top pet peeves in the Grant no-no list?

Grant Baldwin
Yeah, like one that comes to mind is having a huge dependency on your slides. So, here’s one way to approach it, and I rarely, if ever, use slides. They have a huge value, there’s a huge place for them to be used, and they can provide an impact that your words may not be able to provide. But what often happens to speakers is they are more fixated and focused on the slides than on the audience and the presentation itself.

So, as a good kind of barometer here is, think of it this way. If you’re getting ready to give a presentation with slides, and your slides go down, or they don’t work, or the technology breaks, if that were to happen just five minutes before you’re supposed to speak, can you still be ready? Are you still good to go? Because if you’re someone who is like, “Oh, I can’t even function without my slides,” then you’re not ready, like you shouldn’t be up there speaking.

So, I’ll give you an example. My wife is attending a conference a couple of months ago, and she texted me, and she said, “Hey, I’m in this session that was supposed to start 15 minutes ago, and the slides aren’t working, and the speaker just told the audience they can’t speak without the slides.” I was like, “Then you shouldn’t be up there, you shouldn’t be speaking.”

So, I think just like one of the things I always like to say is that your slide should be an enhancement not a replacement for your talk. They shouldn’t be a crutch. So, if they break, you’d be like, “Oh, that sucks,” but your talk should still stand on its own. It should still be solid. Even the other day I was, a couple of weeks, I was at a conference and I was backstage talking with one of the other speakers. And they were going over their slides, slides, slides, slides, just their whole head was absorbed with the slides. I was like, “Dude, get out of it. Like, forget the slides. You have to connect with the audience.”

Using your slides as a cheat sheet or as a guide, or as knowing where to go, like I get some of that, but you also need to know your material. You need to know where your presentation is going without just having to, “I’m just going to throw up a bunch of bullet points then I’m just going to turn and read.”

I mean, if you’re just going to do that, like what’s the point of you? Just give the audience your outline and leave. There’s no point in you just reading stuff and regurgitating stuff to the audience when they’re fully capable of reading. So, slides are good, use slides but just make sure that they’re an enhancement not a replacement for your talk.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, that’s the top pet peeve that leapt to mind. Any others?

Grant Baldwin
Well, I would say, you speak a lot, I speak a lot. I don’t know about you, but I’m not really overly critical with speakers, in part, because I know most speakers haven’t done as much speaking as you or I may have done, Pete. So, it’s not fair to look at someone and say, “Okay, this is your first presentation so let’s just go through every single thing that you did wrong here.”

I remember speaking at a conference and had a friend of mine who gave me a nice compliment but a humbling compliment. And I spoke at this conference, and it’s like the fourth or fifth year of the conference, and I gave a closing keynote, and it went really, really well. And the client came up afterwards, and said, “You’re the best keynote speaker that we’ve ever had.” And I was like, “That’s awesome. That’s so cool.” Well, most of the keynote speakers they’ve had are people who give a few talks here and there but not to the level that I’ve done in terms of just the number of engagements, right?

So, I told a friend this, I was like, “Dude, check this out. He just said I was the best speaker they’ve ever had.” And he’s like, “You’re a professional speaker. You should be the best that they’ve ever had. If you weren’t you’ve got a problem with that, right?” So, the point being, if this is your first time speaking, like I don’t want to be hypercritical of those who are just getting started or only have done a couple things, but the slides should be one thing, using stories should be another thing.

The other thing I would say, too, going back to what we talked about earlier that I think any speaker at any level can do is really spending the time to practice and go over your material. Again, just don’t get up and wing it, don’t just get up and make stuff up, don’t just shoot from the hip           . Like really spending the time to go through the material, know the material, and it makes a huge, huge difference.

A good exercise to go through with this, or maybe a little homework assignment, is to go on Netflix and look up the documentary called Comedian. Have you seen this before?

Pete Mockaitis
Is this Jerry Seinfeld?

Grant Baldwin
Yeah. It had been a DVD for many, many years. I’ve got the DVD, but actually, like recently, within like literally the past few weeks came out on Netflix. It is a great documentary. And the nutshell of it is basically it was filmed in like, I think, the early 2000s. It was right after the show Seinfeld wrapped up, and it’s following Jerry Seinfeld around as he’s doing his standup comedy.

But, really, he’s working on new material, so it shows him getting up on stage and he’s bombing, or he’s forgetting the punchline, or he’s being heckled. And he’s at the top of his game, like he’s one of the more recognized people in entertainment, and yet, here he is showing like, “I’m trying to work on this craft, these jokes.” It’s not just, “Oh, Jerry Seinfeld is funny,” so he just gets up and talk and it all just works out.

It just shows him behind the scenes of how this comes together. So, you watch a special on Netflix or HBO or Comedy Central or whatever, and you think like, “That just happened.” It just doesn’t work like that. They just spend so much time behind the scenes going over and over and over their material so that they feel confident, they feel comfortable, and they feel prepared when they get up and speak. So, I think a speaker/presenter at any level can spend time practicing and preparing and it makes a huge difference.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, perfect. Thank you. Well, so then, I’m curious to hear, as we kind of transition a bit, of all the suggestions that you have offered a number of times, what do you believe is sort of the biggest bang for the buck when it comes to, over the long term, improving your speaking presentation skills? Like, if there’s one thing you would have people do regularly to get better, what would that thing be?

Grant Baldwin
Yeah, I mean, practice would be definitely up there on the list. I think a couple other things that would come to mind would be to get feedback from not just respected people that you know who have a lot of speaking experience who can give you specific feedback, but also from peers and colleagues who may be other speakers as well.

So, getting that feedback, I think makes a big difference. Working with speaking coaches, again, depending on if you’re just like, “Hey, I give one talk a year, and it’s not that big a deal,” it may not be necessary. But if you’re someone where, “Hey, I give a lot of presentations, they’re very high-stakes presentations,” getting that outside feedback from a speaking coach or from a professional speaker who can go through and can really help you on that content of what you’re presenting but also on your presentation style, your presentation skills, can make a huge difference.

Another simple thing that you can do is just recording yourself and watching it back which, for most people, could be brutally painful. But, oftentimes, we can identify things that maybe we wouldn’t have noticed otherwise. So, maybe there’s some type of a filler word that you use regularly, or maybe there’s something you do with your hands, that you’re like, “I didn’t even realize I did that but once I watch it back I see how distracting that is.” Or, “Here’s something every time I tell this story, then this part isn’t funny, and I think it’s funny but now that I’m watching it back, that doesn’t make sense. There’s no flow.”

And you’re kind of just trying to pull this, like have this out-of-body experience where you’re going back and going through the material to figure out like what’s working and what’s not, and just kind of breaking it down in that way. So, recording yourself, going back, reviewing it, watching it is another good exercise that any speaker can do.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Grant, tell me, is there anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Grant Baldwin
I don’t know what my favorite things are so I’m excited about that. Let’s get to that.

Pete Mockaitis
Let’s do it. Okay. Could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Grant Baldwin
One of my favorites quote I like to share is, “Who you are is more important than what you do.” Meaning, if you’re a great speaker, if you’re a great employee, if you’re a great entrepreneur, if you’re a great fill in the blank, but you drop the ball as a husband, as a wife, as a mother, as a father, if you’re just a shell of a human being, that’s just not worth it. So, that’s one I try to remind myself of regularly, “Who you are is more important than what you do.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Excellent.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite book?

Grant Baldwin
Let’s see here. I’m just looking at what I’ve got on my desk here. A lot of times I think it’s kind of depends on your current situation or what you’re chewing on. There’s a book I read recently, or I actually read it a couple of years ago but then was re-reading it recently called Built to Sell. And it’s not necessarily, like, yeah, it’s in the context of if you want to sell your business, but it’s also in the context of trying to build a business that doesn’t depend on you. And so that was a really good one that there’s a lot that could be pulled from.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And, tell me, do you have a favorite tool, something that helps you be awesome at your job?

Grant Baldwin
I use Slack constantly with our team, with communicating with others. If you’re not familiar with this, it’s like a modern-day instant messenger tool, and so there’s a lot of different functions and uses to that. But, yes, Slack is something I use super regularly. I also use a tool called Evernote a lot. It’s kind of my digital brain of any ideas or projects or tasks, or any type of thing that just something I want to save I could keep in Evernote. So, yeah, both Slack and Evernote are pretty common ones I use.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a favorite habit that helps you be effective?

Grant Baldwin
One thing that I would say would be very critical would just be exercise. And I know this is something that’s thrown around commonly but you’re only as good as the body that you have, and that you’re taking care of yourself. So, I just regularly exercise. I do a couple of things. So, there’s a strength-training class that I go to three times a week. I think going to an actual class, for me, personally, has made a big difference because there’s kind of a built-in accountability of the peer pressure of being around other people who can encourage you, that can support you.

That, “Man, I don’t want to get out of bed this early but I know that they’re going to be there and they’re going to give me grief if I’m not there, so, all right, I’ll just get up and go even if I’m not feeling like it. Or those guys are pushing harder so I’m going to push a little bit harder.” So, being in a class setting, for me, for my health, has made a big difference.

So, I do that three times a week and then usually several times a week I will do biking. I’ve done that either outside or we recently got a Peloton Bike so I do these indoor spin classes and those things kick your butt too. But, just bottom line, just taking care of yourself doing something makes a big difference to your ability to focus, get stuff done throughout the day.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a particular nugget or piece that you share that really seems to connect and resonate with your clients, sort of a Grant original that gets them taking notes and saying, “Oh, yeah”?

Grant Baldwin
Well, I would say, like from a speaking standpoint, like if you want to get into like professional speaking, if that’s something you want to do more seriously, then a big thing I would say would be to make sure you’re really, really clear on who you speak to and what you speak about. And I think this is where most speakers have a difficult time is they try to speak to anybody and everybody about everything and anything and nothing all at the same time. But, as counterintuitive as it feels like, the more narrow and focused you are, the easier it is to find and book speaking engagements versus just trying to appeal to anybody and everybody which just doesn’t work.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And, Grant, if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Grant Baldwin
We’ve got a podcast ourselves over at TheSpeakerLab.com, and if people are interested in learning more about how to find and book paid speaking engagements, we’ve got a free training that people can check out over at FreeSpeakerWorkshop.com.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Grant Baldwin
Yeah, I would say the big thing would just be to take some small step of action. And I think that that’s even going back to if you’re working on your talk or your presentation, thinking it through the lens of, “What do you want the audience to do as a result of this?” So, taking some small step of action. If you take the time to listen to this podcast, or any podcast, or read an article or a book or a blogpost or whatever, and you don’t do anything different, like what’s the point of that? So, any little nugget of thing that you want to just take and apply and implement, just taking some type of action makes a huge difference.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Awesome. Well, Grant, thanks so much for taking the time and sharing your perspective here. I wish you and The Speaker Lab tons of luck, and success, and gigs, and all the good stuff.

Grant Baldwin
Thanks, Pete. Appreciate you letting me hang out with you, man.

Dec 15

242: How to Handle Tough Audiences with Deirdre Breakenridge

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Deirdre Breakenridge says: "Know your audience, know the tough questions."

PR consultant Deirdre Breakenridge teaches how to handle tricky audiences, identify different audience member profiles, and deliver great presentations in tough situations.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The best approaches for understanding your audience upfront
  2. Three universal practices to command attention
  3. Handy strategies to prepare you for the tough questions

About Deirdre 

Deirdre has been in PR and marketing for 25+ years helping senior executives in midsize to large organizations communicate to their stakeholders. She is a communications strategist and has worked with clients on many different types of communications programs, including executive communications and thought leadership, image and reputation management, crisis communications, media relations, PR 2.0 and social media programs.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Pete Mockaitis
Deirdre, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Deirdre Breakenridge
Thank you for inviting me.  I’m so happy to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I think we’re going to have a really fun one here.  And I first want to get to know a little bit more about, you started a worldwide Twitter conversation with the hashtag #PRStudChat, which I just love.  What’s the story behind this?

Deirdre Breakenridge
It’s really funny.  The name alone, I think was a conversation starter.  But the community itself, we’re over 5,000 members and we are PR professionals, educators and students, and we’ve come together because PR was changing so much through social media.  And it’s a constant conversation, but we do have Twitter chat sessions every month, and this has been going on for eight years.  But our very first Twitter chat that we had, we had gentlemen showing up saying, “We’re studs, we’re here.”  And we said stud was short for student, which was really funny.

Pete Mockaitis
That is good.  Well, I was wondering, is this something for very high performers in the world of public relations, or students, or I guess both?

Deirdre Breakenridge
It’s anybody and everyone who wants to understand how to communicate better on behalf of their companies, and especially students who are trying to figure out, “Is public relations right for me?”  Because just the whole profession of PR has really changed and we’re much more integrated with marketing, and we’re using technology; some exciting things going on.

Pete Mockaitis
That is good.  Cool.  And so then your company is Pure Performance Communications.  What’s your mission and purpose there?

Deirdre Breakenridge
So, it’s a consulting firm.  We’re a strategic communications consulting, and we believe in a blend of strategic comms and technology to create a better, more impactful experience for a brand’s customers.  So it’s all about the customer, the consumer, and when you fuse technology and communication together, you can definitely learn more about your audience and be able to create an experience that they’re going to enjoy, become loyal brand, I guess, advocates.  And that’s the best place that you want to be with your customers.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly.  Cool.  Alright, so now for the topic of the day – I discovered you through your LinkedIn learning course called Handling an Unruly Audience, which is a very eye-catching name.  And so I was intrigued as to maybe what inspired you to create such a thing.  Have you had some wild encounters perhaps with an unruly audience?

Deirdre Breakenridge
So here’s the thing: I’ve always believed that teaching a course about presentations and handling tough audiences, you don’t have to be in PR or marketing; it could be any field.  And it doesn’t have to be 1,000 people where you’re on a stage; it literally could be you presenting to your team in a meeting.  So, I knew that there’s a lot of people out there, and I’m always listening to what professionals are saying.  And they wanted to know, “How do we handle tough questions?” and, “How do you get your messages across?”, “How do you handle learning about them and using the information, building champions before you start?”
So, I had been working with LinkedIn and they always ask me, “What are the topics that you think really would resonate with professionals?”  So, of course, handling unruly audiences was one of them.  Thankfully I’ve had lots of experiences with different audiences, tough questions, somewhat unruly, nothing too crazy.

Pete Mockaitis
I was wondering if you had just some terribly uncooperative audiences in your past.  And I could think of just one that leaps to mind, because it was just so satisfying.  I was doing a college keynote, and I think it was called The Four Frustrations of Student Leadership.  So, I’m talking about frustrations, and it just so happened I was being frustrated by a couple of folks in the audience, who were just flagrantly disrespectful and just talking to each other.  And usually I can silence misbehavior just by having a good look, good eye contact.  But they were barely looking at me to even give me the chance.  They were just talking to each other, kind of laughing and joking around.  And other folks around them, you could tell they were kind of irritated and uncomfortable.
And I had the sweet, blissful satisfaction of working in the speech content to be like, “Sometimes it just feels like you’re pouring your heart and soul into what you’re doing, and you’re giving it all you have, and you wish that people would care, that they would really buy in.”
And I’m just like staring directly at them and walking very close to them and just talking about how it can be frustrating when folks don’t engage when you’re giving all you have.  And it was so awesome because you could see the melting in their chairs, and everyone around was like, “Oh dang, he just did that.”  It felt so good to squash them.  But usually it’s more minor; it’s like people speak up and you look at them and then they stop and then you move on.

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yeah.  I think the tactic you used was really good.  And I use that in my course because that is one way, even though it falls under the “heckler” category.  It’s that disinterested, disruptive one participant or a group of participants, and when you kind of move close to them and either somehow target them the way that you did very quickly… And sometimes you can even give them the forum, almost like, “Oh, share” – they will stop immediately.  And I’ve done it in classrooms with my students; it just makes them kind of crawl in their seats, just sink really low.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, it’s I guess revenge.  It’s satisfying without actually doing any permanent damage, which is cool.  But maybe just back it up – even before you start a presentation and you have an audience live in front of you.  I’d love to get your take on the best approaches to go about getting a good understanding of the audience upfront.

Deirdre Breakenridge
So I think you have to ask the right questions, and you have to utilize your resources to get the answers.  So of course you want to know who they are, what are their titles or position in the company, but it’s why are they there?  Are they choosing to be there?  Is this mandatory?  Were they forced to listen to you?  What are some of their hot-button issues, critical topics?
If there’s any way, shape or form that you have access to somebody who is putting together the meeting, or a conference coordinator, you can tap into that person.  I’ve even gone as far as for training sessions with different companies, if that audience has had presenters in the past and they videotaped it, I want to watch that tape.  I want to watch how employees or groups respond to other presenters, from their body language to their questions.
Sometimes, and it depends, if there is a company blog that is open or outward-facing, if there’s a community where you think participants are actually participating in before your meeting or your conference, you can learn so much about your audience.  And I think that’s where social media is so important, because most of the conferences where I speak today, there’s always a hashtag.  And you can follow that hashtag, that aggregated conversation, where people are already sharing what they need to know and what they’re expecting.  And I think that’s where you can walk in knowing a lot more about your audience, so that you can connect to them more quickly.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great, certainly.  So doing that upfront homework – that’s excellent.  Then I’m wondering, if you maybe already have some interaction with the individuals you’re speaking to – if it’s sort of like teammates or collaborators – are there any particular things that are worth noting and cataloguing and synthesizing about them over the long term?

Deirdre Breakenridge
So, if it’s your teammates, here’s the thing: I always say, and this kind of gets into personalities, because every group, every company, every audience, there are personalities.  So within your own company – any company that you work for – you’re going to find the gossipers, you’re going to find the complainers, you’re going to find the folks who raise the red flags but maybe don’t have the solution, you might find the folks who have to get all the credit.  You can pinpoint those personalities, because when you know them and you recognize them, you can manage them.
So there’s no difference when you’re going in front of a group – you can either somehow figure that out or spot those personalities very quickly within your audience.  And I think that’s one way to be able to kind of document and prepare.  So if it is your team, and you know the people who are on your team, you might want to think ahead about, if they’re coming into this meeting, what are they expecting, what do they want to get out of it, what are their goals and objectives, why are they sitting there?  The more that you can think about those personalities and answer some questions, you’re going to be a lot better off.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent.  And so, are there more personality types you’d care to unpack for us?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yeah.  So, in my experience, there are always the skeptics.  Somebody will come to your presentation; you could be on stage with 100 people and you’re going to have the skeptics in the audience who pretty much just want to be recognized as folks who know more than the speaker, they have done this research, their books are better.  They want to be recognized.  So they’re going to be skeptical, no matter how many books you’ve written.  That’s just the way it is.

Pete Mockaitis
And those questions they ask… I could really picture it – it’s like, “Isn’t it true that…….”  It’s like, “Yes.”  Is that their question or are you just trying to impress everyone that you know something?  Okay.

Deirdre Breakenridge
Exactly.  You know what?  If you ever get the opportunity as a presenter… If it’s a conference, what I like to do – if it’s an audience that sits in a room the whole day where different presenters come up on stage, I’ll go early just to watch how the skeptics come out with the presenter before me.  And as soon as I see those skeptics, when I get up there, I include them in the conversation very quickly, because rather than having them shout from the rafters, “Oh, pay attention to me!  I’ve got more books, more research and I know this”, if you could pull them in and do some kind of recognition around them, they’re going to be your champion.  It changes.  And I’ve done that before.
I was at a leadership rally for a very large international organization, and I was able to pinpoint two skeptics on opposite sides of the room, and when I went up there, I involved them very quickly.  You do that in the business setting too whenever you’re trying to get something done.  Sometimes you want to include your naysayers, because it’s easier to get something pushed through at the end when the naysayers are actually there and onboard.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly.  And when you say, “Include them”, what does that look and sound like in practice?

Deirdre Breakenridge
So sometimes that literally means you’re talking about something and you look at the person and say, “What do you think?  Can you weigh in on this?”  And that’s a golden opportunity, because you just gave them that little bit of recognition that they’re going to want anyway, and they’re actually thankful for it and nobody else knows why or who.  It almost looks like it’s random; I could have called on anybody, like, “How about you?”  It’s just a great way to be able to flip that sceptic.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s handy.  So sceptics are one personality type to be aware of and work with.  What else?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Okay, so there are hecklers; unless you actually have a heckler, you’re not welcome into the world of public speaking.  So you have to have a heckler, and then it’s like, “Oh my God, I’ve made it!”  So, the heckler is just somebody also who is disruptive, but there’s different types of hecklers.  So, we can carve that out now or we can carve it out later, but that is actually broken down into a few personalities.
And then there’s positive people too in your audience.  If you can spot… I tend to read body language, I notice people who are sitting a certain way, who are smiling, who are nodding their heads.  So they’re like the positive onlookers – you could also involve them, because chances are the way that they’re responding to you through their non-verbal cues, they want to be involved.  So, they’re somebody that you want to tap into that personality.
Key opinion leaders – that’s another really important personality.  And I remember when – I’ve talked about this during my LinkedIn course – when I went to speak to, I think it was the American Association of Chemists – scary group; I don’t know a lot about chemists and chemistry and these scientists.  But it was all about their research and communicating and trying to make their work go a lot farther.  And I remember I had the opportunity to spend the day and a lunch with them before my presentation.
And I started to notice certain people who were very vocal within other presentations in the morning, and who were very popular, and you knew that they were highly respected.  So what did I do?  I made sure that I picked one of them and I sat at his table at lunch time, not that we were building toward a relationship, but I got to know this person a little bit, asked some questions.  So that way by the time I got to present, I included and asked a question of that key opinion leader.
And by doing that – by including the key opinion leader, and this could be in any group setting – all those people who respect that person, and if you show you have a rapport, there’s some kind of chemical in your brains that all say, “Oh my gosh, she must be okay, because she’s respecting the key opinion leader.”  And then you also have to think about your vocal champions, and they’re the ones on social media that you meet, who you talk to you beforehand and they’re already championing for you.  When you get them inside the room, they’re going to cheer you on.  So those are some of the personalities.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that sort of pre-heating, if you will, that you’re doing in terms of engaging them in conversation.  And I think there’s also something too, if you can shake hands or have some sort of a physical touch that’s appropriate prior to – it just seems to make a difference, especially if there’s a stage kind of environment, sort of creating a separation.  It’s sort of like, “No, you’re not just like an image on the screen equivalent, of distance.  You’re a person.”  It’s like I’ve interacted with you and made physical contact and know that you’re real and not a robot or an image on the screen, distantly away.

Deirdre Breakenridge
Exactly.  And I was just watching Mel Robbins, one of her presentations.  The minute she got out there, she went right into the audience and she was high-fiving and touching everybody’s hands and running up and down and being a part of the audience.  So, your point about that physical something being there – that appropriate touching, of course – goes a long way.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good.  And I also want to follow up on, you mentioned you’re reading the body language.  And are there some sort of telltale indicators that you notice repeatedly, in terms of, “When I see this, it means that, and therefore I do this”?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yes.  So when I see arms crossed, I know it’s not really buying into what they’re about to hear.  So I know that I have to work a little harder to make sure these people understand, and give them a reason to buy into what I’m about to present.  And it just reminds me early on in social media – so we’re talking… Oh gosh, I was paying attention to social media, I was writing PR 2.0 back in 2006 or 2007, and I was doing some training with Michael C. Fina.
And part of their business – I don’t know if you know Michael C. Fina, but they are very well known for their business on, I think it’s still Fifth Avenue, where you can buy the china and the jewelry and the silverware.  They were a part of that show The Price Is Right when it was ever, “And you get a diamond by Michael C. Fina.”  But a big part of their business was recognition programs for Fortune 500 companies.  So my agency at the time was their agency of record for public relations, and also for advertising.  And they asked me to come in to talk to their sales professionals about social media.
And it was really interesting, because there were about 100 sales professionals, maybe 75; and the first two rows were older gentlemen, definitely in their 50s.  They sat with their arms crossed and it immediately told me that you feel like you don’t have time for social media, it is a waste of your time, and you just want to build relationships by seeing people in person, shaking hands and signing contracts.  And it was my job in that training session to make sure that they understood that they could do some really good social selling.  And by the end of the presentation, they were all very relaxed and leaning forward, and you could tell with their eye contact that they were onboard.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good.  And I think that is helpful, in terms of making real time adjustments if you sense that’s the vibe, then maybe it’s good to go straight there, in terms of, “Maybe you think that social media is all just a bunch of silly food images, but in fact check out this amazing case study, and that one.  There is for real money to be made here.”  Versus, if you have a bunch of folks who are already sort of gung-ho, it’s like, “Yeah, yeah, we know that, Deirdre.  We don’t really need to hear how it’s great.  We’re already onboard with it being great, so let’s get to the cool stuff here.”

Deirdre Breakenridge
Exactly.  So, knowing their expectations are also just knowing the way that… It’s habits in a sense, especially with sales professionals – they have certain preferences and habits and they’re hard to break into a new way of thinking.  So, you’re going to see a lot of body language when you have to change a mindset.

Pete Mockaitis
So the arms crossed is one.  Any other kind of key indicators you’re looking for?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yeah, I watch body language.  Sometimes it’s directly aimed at me.  The eye contact is really important, the way somebody is sitting in their chair, if their body language is more open versus the crossed arms, as we said.  But I also notice personality through body language, and confidence, and how that person is feeling about themselves.
So I do have a podcast called Women Worldwide, and we talk a lot about women and empowering women.  And I notice the body language between men and women is sometimes very different.  And the power poses that are going on within the audience – sometimes the way men are sitting with the elbow pop, where they’re also kind of spread out with their materials, where women are more tidy and neat and maybe they’re sitting in a fashion crossing their legs and arms at their sides or in front of them.  So that also tells me a lot about your personality and how you’re feeling, even as far as how you’re going to feel about the topic.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, understood.  So then, I’d love to get your take when it comes to effectively capturing attention, regardless of where folks are currently with their body language or their receptivity.  Are there any sort of universal practices you use to command attention at the beginning?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yeah, I think that the best way is to let people know that this is about them.  Some of the ways that you can do that – I do it myself whenever I do a training session.  And if it’s 15 or 20 people, the minute I start I’m like, “Selfie!  We’re going to take a picture, we’re all going to put it on social media”, because it says you’re in it together.  So that’s that instant connection, so that’s one way.
Sometimes it’s, and I’ve used this one in a larger group on stage, where you want to use something around your environment or the event to hook people in immediately.  So I remember when I was going to London to keynote the FutureComms Conference.  And I’d never been to London before; I was all excited about it.  And I remember sharing this story on stage that when I got to the airport and I was with the immigration officer, and she said, “Why are you in London”, and I said, “Well, I am keynoting the FutureComms Conference”, and she said to me, “Really?  What is the future of communications?”
So on stage when I shared, “The immigration officer asked what’s the future of communications – well, my goodness, that is such a burning question.  That made me feel really good and that’s why we’re here today.”  And the audience really appreciated the story, because it was about them, it was about the topic, and it was also about the fact that I was in London and talking to the immigration officer.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m always nervous when they ask.

Deirdre Breakenridge
I know, right?  That’s so funny.  And then there are other just quick tips.  Get your audience talking right away.  So, sometimes you’ll see the technique of, “Raise the hands”, or, “What do you think about this topic?  Please share.”  And you get two or three people to share.  And then the best part is that whatever information you can get at the beginning, don’t forget to somehow be on your feet and work that in later to bring up that person and that scenario again, which also gets everybody back on their toes, like, “Oh, she mentioned a name.  Is she going to call on me?”  So that’s another way to connect with your audience.
And I think one thing that I’ve always said in any presentation setting that gets attention is your preparation, like know your material.  The first five minutes, know your material like the back of your hand, and show your passion.  And that really, really is appreciated and noticed right away.  And if you can do that within the first five minutes, your audience will stick with you throughout your presentation.

Pete Mockaitis
I dig it.  Yes, yes.  And I also want to get your take on when it comes to, if you have some tough questions coming your way, whether they’re tough because it’s tricky, you don’t know the answer, or they’re tough because it’s clear that they dramatically disagree with you and they’re making that oh-so-clear with their body language and intonation.  How do you deal with that situation?

Deirdre Breakenridge
So sometimes for tough questions, if you have an opportunity to set the ground rules around how people are going to participate and how questions will be asked – sometimes having those guidelines and being more specific around your Q&A can really, really help you to let people know that… Not to say that tough questions won’t pop up, but if a tough question pops up, you could say, “You know what?  I don’t have that information right now, but I am going to refer you to XYZ in the company, so that you can speak to him and we’re going to deal with that offline.”  And then you could move on.
So somewhere along the lines having the guidelines really helps, because you don’t ever want to ignore the question.  So that technique that I just used that, “I’m the expert on this, but I would prefer you speak with so-and-so” or, “I can get you that later” – that really helps.
There’s always the option of when the tough question comes in and it is around your area of expertise, sometimes what I do is a repeating of the question and a restating in a way that makes it not as tough and a little bit easier for me to answer, so that I can get the right information forward and everybody’s going to understand.  If there’s any part of it that I can’t really address, then I can go to that, “Let me speak with you later offline and get you the information, the other part that you need.”
You can also at any time kind of answer, be concise… So if it’s a tough question, you know you have to answer it – just don’t open Pandora’s box.  I think sometimes when tough questions come in, people tend to go on and on and on, and it’s almost like… I do a media training course too.  Reporters will ask you a question and they hope that you just go on and on and on.  You’ve got to cut it off, because the more you say, the more you open up that box to tougher questions.  So be really concise in your answer, and that also helps with tough questioning.
And this is my last one –  if you can clarify anything through research that you’ve done, through stats and studies that you know… It’s almost like you might want to arm yourself beforehand – know your audience, know the tough questions, think about tough questions in advance, and have some things ready maybe to answer those questions.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent.  And could you give us an example of that restating and framing the question so that it’s more manageable for you in practice?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Okay, so I was recently at a conference, and I was on stage with a client of the past who I’d worked with to rebuild his brand.  He basically violated FCPA laws and anti-bribery laws, went to prison, read my books, came out, asked me if I would help him with his messaging, his media interviews, and rebuild his brand.  And I believed him, so I did it.  And I’m glad I did because now we’re on stage together and he’s an incredible success story.
But the topic came up, the woman was talking about rebuilding a brand and it sounded like it was going to be really tough, because she started to share a personal story about how she was sexually harassed by her boss, but she was the bad guy, and it opened up this whole kind of area, a subject that’s really deep and really tough and really personal.  And I was on stage, so how do I address that, because I want her to feel comfortable?
So I restated; I said, “First of all, I want to thank you for sharing – that was very brave to share your personal story.  And I think what I’m hearing you say is that, from what you went through, you’re asking me, is it possible to rebuild if you have the damaged brand?  Would it be similar to what I did with Richard, my client?”
And she also asked this little piece of, “What do you want to say to the companies or the politicians or even Harvey Weinstein about sexual harassment?”  And I rephrased it in such a way to say, “For anyone who is dealing with that, you’re all operating in a fishbowl; you have to have transparency.”  So I kind of took what she said, structured it to make it just a little bit easier for myself and for the audience to understand, and to answer it in such a way, because it’s such a hot-button issue, so as not to have everybody screaming at each other over a topic that probably we could have talked to for hours.  Does that make sense?

Pete Mockaitis
Understood, yes.  Thank you.  Well, Deirdre, tell me – is there anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Well, we’ve covered so much.  I do other Lynda, LinkedIn courses.  I mentioned the media training, and I just rolled out with some marketing courses as well – go-to market planning and a marketing communications course.  And of course if anybody is interested in public relations, I have those courses too.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool.  Alright, tell us then – could you start us off with a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Deirdre Breakenridge
You know what?  My quote is one that I’ve used on stage before, and I think it kind of speaks to my journey and how I like to reinvent.  And it’s Joseph Campbell, who is an American writer and he’s known as a mythologist, and he said that, “You enter the forest at the darkest point, where there is no path.”  And I know that kind of sounds dark, but for me, and I think what he’s trying to say, is that if you are following somebody else’s path, then you are not going to reach your full potential.  So, I’ve always tried to follow my own path, to have this open canvas, and that really helps you to reinvent yourself and move forward to tap into your true potential at all different phases of your life and your career.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you.  And how about a favorite book?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Oh, so I read a book back in my 20s – I think it was my late 20s – called The Four Agreements.  It’s by Don Miguel Ruiz – I think that’s his name.  It stuck with me because those agreements really teach you not to take things personally, to stand by your word, don’t make assumptions, be the best that you can be.  And I think that if you can carve out your life and be true to the four things, those four agreements, you’re going to have a much better life.  So that’s my favorite book.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh great, thank you.  And how about a favorite tool?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Okay, so Grammarly.  Doesn’t matter who you are, what you do – if you’re writing emails, if you’re writing reports, if you’re writing articles, Grammarly is really good.  You can get the free edition, but premium edition gives you a lot more benefits and is helpful.  And what I found with Grammarly, it actually teaches you to be a better writer.  So when I first started using Grammarly, it grades you and it says, “You’re 88% correct with your grammar and / or your spelling, but you need a little work.”  And now I’m like 100%.  I’m like 99-100%, which is great, because I need to be.

Pete Mockaitis
Interesting.  So it’s just checking your grammar, in terms of, is that the proper “your”?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yeah, it’s checking everything.  We’re told not to write in the passive voice, but to write in the active voice, and just being transparent, this is something that I struggled with for a long time.  And Grammarly just kicked that right out of me, which is great.

Pete Mockaitis
So the passive voice was used by you, and now no longer.

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yes.  So it has really, really helped me, so that when I write something, I’m writing in the active voice.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool.  And how about a favorite habit?

Deirdre Breakenridge
I guess it’s my, what I call “checking media headlines”.  So I’m a little addicted to all the headlines that come out on the cable stations, I have curated articles that I’m constantly checking, around my interests.  So that is definitely a habit.  On the lighter side, I do love Netflix, so that is a habit where my husband and some of our kids when they’re around, we watch Mad Men, Parks and Rec.  So yeah, that’s a habit too.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you.

Deirdre Breakenridge
You’re welcome.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about, is there a particular nugget or piece that you share, a Deirdre original, that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, in terms of they’re nodding their heads, they’re taking notes, they’re Kindle book highlighting?

Deirdre Breakenridge
I always think that just “Be true to your brand” is really, really important.  And that goes to everything – who you are and what you value at every single touchpoint.  So I think that’s what I’m most passionate about as I’m educating many.  I am a professor at different universities, and as you know I speak and I do my training sessions.  So I think it’s just be true to your brand, and always listen.  Listen to people.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright.  And Deirdre, if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Deirdre Breakenridge
So I would say, check out my blog, which is my author’s website, kind of the portal to me.  That is DeirdreBreckenridge.com.  You can also check out Pure Performance, which is PurePerformanceComm.com, with two Ms.  And please, connect with me on LinkedIn or follow me on Twitter – I’m @dbreckenridge and I love to answer questions.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yes.  I think that you all need to get out of your comfortable zone and get into your uncomfortable zone, because when you do that, you will learn and grow and excel.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright.  Well, Deirdre, thanks so much for taking this time and sharing your lessons learned and war stories.  It’s been a lot of fun.

Deirdre Breakenridge
Thank you so much.  I enjoyed our conversation.  I really appreciate the opportunity to be on your show, so thank you!

Dec 04

237: Crafting Memorable Stories with Dr. Carmen Simon

By Podcasts One Comment

 

Carmen Simon says: "As a communicator, you're a choreographer of your audience's expectations."

Carmen Simon shows how to become impossible to ignore by integrating the right components to influence our audience’s minds.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The three components of a good story
  2. Why causation in a story can be both sexy and tricky at the same time
  3. Why relatable emotions are more important than strong emotions

About Carmen 

Dr. Carmen Simon is a Cognitive Neuroscientist and Founder of Memzy. She has applied the latest neuroscience research findings to deliver workshops, design, and consulting services. Carmen is a published author and a frequent keynote speaker at conferences in the U.S., Canada, Europe and Asia. She holds doctorates in instructional technology and cognitive psychology, and uses her knowledge to offer business professionals a flashlight and a magnet: one to call attention to what’s important in a message, the other to make it stick to the audience’s brain so they can act on it. Carmen’s brain science coaching helps business professionals motivate listeners and stand out from too much sameness in the industry.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Pete Mockaitis
Carmen, welcome back to the How to Be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Carmen Simon
Thank you. Thank you so much and welcome back, everyone.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s so fun. There’s only been about three guests who have done, well, exactly three, I believe, who have made a repeat appearance, so welcome. It’s cool to have you in the club here.

Carmen Simon
Thank you so much. And, you know, repetition is the mother of memory so repeated exposure with yet some statements that people remember.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that is well-played. You know, Skype just informed me that your birthday is on New Year’s Day.

Carmen Simon
Oh, I wonder how it got that information. No, it’s actually equally cool birthday. I’m a Halloween baby.

Pete Mockaitis
No kidding? Well, maybe you just set said, “Forget this, Skype. I’m not telling you my birthday. I’m filling in, oh, 1-01.”

Carmen Simon
Yes, it’s relinking this with the concept of memory. False memories are very much of a cautionary topic for all of us.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I was intrigued because our baby, the due date is January 1.

Carmen Simon
Oh, there you go. Always at the crossroads for new beginnings. That’s nice.

Pete Mockaitis
So, I guess you’ll be unlikely to share a birthday with our child, but you’re still close in our hearts. It’s so sweet of you to ask for our wedding photo, and I sent you one very belatedly as well. I’ll follow with my thank you notes which is very belated.

Carmen Simon
Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you and congratulations. Once again what beautiful pictures.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. And I just learned that you were once an interpreter at the UN. Can you tell us a bit about that experience, that story?

Carmen Simon
Yeah, what a great job to run the nest on. It wasn’t the Nicole Kidman type but operating in similar environments. So, at the time there was the Bosnia war going if you imagine. Remember the embargo that was placed over Bosnia, so the group that I was assigned to was constantly monitoring those borders and we would constantly do these Danube patrols and I got to work with a lot of CIA and FBI agents.

It was an intriguing part of my life. What I retained from it, speaking of memory, is that when memory is concerned, culture plays such a huge role because all of us have such different mental models through which we process our reality. So, I’m sure that all of our listeners have a different mental model as to how you use to spend your Christmases since we’re talking about Christmas before our show. And what your Christmas used to look like was very different than mine.

What’s a traditional Christmas for you, Pete?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, the first thing that comes to mind is, well, midnight mass which is actually like at 10 p.m. or so and snickerdoodle cookies.

Carmen Simon
Yeah, there you go. So, if we’re doing the show to impart with our audience some practical guidelines on how to stay on other people’s memory which is the center of my research, what I remember from my interpreter days is that it was much easier to translate and be able to stay accurate to those people’s memories the more that I understood their mental models, so to the extent that I got to be in somebody’s shoes from Germany, or somebody’s shoes from Romania, or somebody’s shoes from France. The translation and the accuracy of those memories was much sharper.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, which languages were you interpreting?

Carmen Simon
I was interpreting English and French. Now, remember my roots go back to Romania so that’s another language that would belong in there. I could play in some Italian in the good old days so those were the languages that were operated back then at the borders.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s impressive. To have those languages, another feather in your cap as memory expert.

Carmen Simon
Yeah, it’s very humbling because as I reflect on what makes something memorable, sensory stimulation is definitely one of the variables that you can use to stay on people’s minds. And when you translate something you can stay on the surface or you can go a little bit deeper in order to understand what you’re talking about. And I’m noticing that a lot of people forget things simply because we do stay on the surface all the time.

I’m working on some presentations with some executives just this week, and they’re asking me to create slides for them that express things like business optimization or an improved sales model. And unless you’re getting to those people’s shoes, very much like what we’re doing back then in our interpreting days for France or for England or for Germany, it’s very difficult to come up with something that is fresh and stimulating our senses.

Because if you just go to, let’s just say, stock photos and you type in sales optimization, what do you get? Yeah, you’d get those arrows pointing up and people shaking hands because a new deal has been closed. But how memorable are those?

Pete Mockaitis
Now I’m thinking of people dressed up in their business formal wear and suits just like sprinting around a racetrack. I don’t know.

Carmen Simon
Oh, they go from the racetrack to the top of the mountains, I’m sure you’ve seen those.

Pete Mockaitis
They’re not dressed right.

Carmen Simon
And a blank computer screen and just getting very excited, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, so since we last spoke you started your own company, you’ve gone solo. It’s kind of like Justin Bieber or something, out of NSYNC. You got your own company now, it’s MEMZY. And what’s MEMZY all about?

Carmen Simon
MEMZY is all about using brain science research to help organizations create memorable content. So, if somebody is reflecting on their own messages, and they’re thinking, “Boy, we’re going to have a hard time expressing this and staying on people’s minds,” then it’s very useful to look at evidence-based guidelines to see what you can do in a more precise kind of way.

Because surely you may have some techniques that you’re using right now to create something that’s memorable. But are you sure that those render dividends or is it are you using those techniques simply because they may have worked in the past?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, intriguing. Intriguing. Well, now we’re back in Episode 11, if folks want to check out the original conversation that we had, and so there might be a couple things repeated, which is just fine for memory as you’ve made clear, but I also kind of want to chart a little bit of new territory. So, I understand that you’ve got some recent research about what it is within stories that make them more memorable than perhaps other stories.

Carmen Simon
I do. I just got so tired of hearing people saying, “Stories are memorable all the time.” Like whenever people talk about memory, and you tell them, “Hey, it’s good to make something memorable,” they immediately say, “Shouldn’t you share a story?” And, of course, the intuitive answer is, “Yes, definitely share a story.” But just because you do don’t think that that story will always be memorable or always be memorable long term.

So, through the research I did just that, I invited some people to first submit a series of stories, and I asked them to complete the sentence, “I will never forget,” and then fill in the blank. And some people went on for a few paragraphs, and some people went on for longer, some people went professional, some people went personal. Where do you think most of the people went though, personal or professional?

Pete Mockaitis
I’m guessing personal.

Carmen Simon
Yeah, most of the people who submitted their stories went to a personal space, and that was intriguing to me as a finding, too, by the way, because when your audiences are going to recollect their memories and, hopefully, you’re in there somewhere, they’re going to reach for the memory that comes to their minds more easily, that comes to their minds without much effort. And our personal memories quite often are probably a lot more effortless than the professional ones to recollect.

Pete Mockaitis
Intriguing. And so, then what did you notice in terms of like the themes or patterns associated with the stories that folks will never forget?

Carmen Simon
Most of the stories had obviously some sort of an emotion or some contrast between a state versus another state where they ended up those weren’t necessarily surprising. What surprised me is when I gave these stories to various people to then read, and I asked them, “What is it that you remember from other people’s stories you see?” That’s when I wanted to see, “What’s the overlap? What’s stays in our minds from other people’s stories naturally without you trying too hard?”

So, two days later after these people read the initial stories, they received a survey that asked them, “What do you remember?” And I asked them a subsequent question, too, I said, “Now, please try a little bit harder,” exactly for this reason I’m mentioning that the brain is a cognitively lazy organ, and when we are asked a question, especially if we’re not immediately vested, which these people weren’t, we’re going to take the path of least resistance.

So, if I asked you, “What do you remember from your last day at work?” You might probably give me one or two things and not really try that hard. Is that true? Like what do you remember from your work last week?

Pete Mockaitis
Last week? It’s so funny. My temptation, talk about lazy, was to just get the mouse and move right over to the calendar and have it do the remembering for me.

Carmen Simon
Yeah, I’m not surprised. That’s what I noticed that that was one of the initial findings is that immediately, for question number two, which is where I’m asking people to, “Please try a little bit harder,” obviously those are more revealing answers than their original answer.

So, then the practical guideline that I would have for everyone listening to this is that, one, make sure that if you do have a story, it comes to your audiences’ minds easily, and then you reinforce is in some way if you want to stay there for a long period of time because those surface details are going to be gone very, very quickly. We tend to stay on the surface when recollecting things especially if the reward or if the goal for them to remember is not all that well-stated or not that strong.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s funny, now I’m thinking harder per your prompt. And the first thing that comes to mind is we had a podcast guest, Frances Cole Jones, and she sent an email out to her whole list which had her sporting the How to Be Awesome at Your Job podcast T-shirt, which I began sending to guests as a thank you. So, spoiler alert, Carmen.

Carmen Simon
Nice. Well, see that’s a very smart technique, by the way, because if you want to make stories more memorable, and just any other type of communication more memorable, a good way to do it is to send something that would then trigger people’s memories in some way when you’re not even in the room, so you’re doing it right.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, cool. Thank you. Well, I guess what made the reason that’s so memorable, it’s like, “Well, shucks, I’ve sent out many, many T-shirts,” and I’ve seen some people post on Twitter, like, “Hey, thanks for the shirt. It’s cool.” But it’s like, “Oh, there’s something quite public into the whole email list. What a treat just in terms of being a generous, kind promotional move on her part that is supportive of what I’m doing over here.”

Carmen Simon
Congratulations! Congratulations!

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. Yeah. So, okay, so then we talked about state changes and we talked about I guess noteworthiness is what I noticed. So, what are some of the other ingredients that make them memorable?

Carmen Simon
Yeah, we’re talking about the cognitive ease, so make sure that whatever you’re sharing with your audiences will come to their minds easily.

Pete Mockaitis
But what makes it easy versus hard?

Carmen Simon
Yeah, exactly, so then we have to ask the question, “Well, what happens if we don’t have the chance to ask somebody else to try harder to remember us?” because we don’t always have that luxury. And then the question still becomes, “What comes to people’s minds so effortlessly that they don’t even have to think so hard?”

And one of the items is one that we touched upon a little bit earlier which is this strong sensory stimulation. Like, for example, there was one gentleman who contributed a story when he remembered going to Kenya to fix some electricity-related devices. And he was invited at this family and he had brought them a bottle of Coke. And that family, and according to their tradition, whenever you got a gift you had to then share it with everybody else.

And he remembers in details going up the hill to this hut and it was something that was built in mud, you know those mud huts. He remembers distinctly the mother and the father and the small kid, and even the grandmother that was sitting on this piece of log and she had glaucoma. And he remembers the holes in this kid’s clothes that were stapled so that there wouldn’t be holes anymore.

But the emotion that stood out for him was the fact that these people only had a bottle of Coke, which they had not had for maybe a year before, and they wanted to share with him, and he didn’t even like Coke and it was a warm bottle of Coke. But yet they convinced him to drink some of it, and you take a few sips and then you pass it onto the next person who also take a few sips, and he thought that was the greatest gift he had ever received from a family who pretty much had nothing.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, that’s powerful. And so, then the Coke is right there. We got the red, we got the white visually, we’ve got the taste itself wrapped up in emotion.

Carmen Simon
Exactly. And then you can almost see like those holes on the clothes that are stapled shut, and you can see the mud hut, and the way that he was expressing it was so visual that later on when I was looking at people’s responses, and I knew that a few of them had read his story, those details were remarked in people’s responses. That’s such a luxury for anyone these days to stay on people’s minds days after you have shared this stimulus. That’s huge.

And the advice then that I have for everyone listening is to look at your communication and ask, “How strong of a mental picture are you painting in your audiences’ minds?” Because, quite often, we become forgettable simply because our communication is so darn abstract.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s excellent. And so, then I’m thinking right now, as you talk about some clients working with like business process optimization, I guess that seems pretty abstract, but if maybe we’re talking about, I don’t know, logistics or delivery, if you tell a story of a customer who was blown away by receiving that package, I don’t know, like the very next day and they were able to, I don’t know, redecorate the house or serve a patient in the hospital, like something I guess visually that they’re then doing with that product and how the speed made a difference. I’m just sort of grasping here. But I imagine that goes a lot farther than saying, “We’re dropping our average ship time from 2.1 days to 1.4 days.”

Carmen Simon
Yeah, and you can still show both. I’m not saying then sacrifice one at the expense of another. In fact, a question that I get quite often when it comes to storytelling is, “What’s the difference between storytelling and facts?” And we can’t really approach the question that way because facts can still be parts of stories.

Pete Mockaitis
Right.

Carmen Simon
Facts are, I would define them as zoomed-in stories because if I were to categorized all the findings from the research, a story is based on three components. There is a perceptive component in which we can include that sensory stimulation I was sharing with you; we can include a strong context because when I said Kenya you can kind of knew where to go; and we can include action across time. So, all of this are perceptive things, things that you can sense with your senses.

Another component is a cognitive one, and facts go in there and meanings and abstracts, so that’s where business people thrive. We enjoy the fact and we enjoy extracting some conclusions from what we say, and those are great. But quite often I think at the expense of the perceptive, we don’t help our audience’s brains to build these strong mental pictures and then we wonder why people forget those facts because they didn’t really know how to imagine those.

And then the third one is, of course, the affective component which is where emotions and motivations and aspirations would go.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, can you give us maybe some pro tips to enhancing each of these dimensions?

Carmen Simon
Yes. For the perceptive one, definitely go towards the language that stimulates the senses and keeps us alert. So, the more you can make people see what you saw and hear what you heard, and then almost enable touching what you touched, then that strong language would definitely reside in people’s memories a lot stronger.

And, also for the perceptive, don’t forget the action across time. You cannot have a story unless things progress across time, and in business content, hardly anything ever happens. In fact, it’s surprises me when people say, “Oh, just come to our organization and help us tell our story better.” And then I’ll ask, “Well, so what is your story?”

And they will say, “We are founded in this year, and we have this many customers, and we have noticed these trends in the industry, and as a result we have developed this amazing web architecture.” You know, everybody has an amazing web architecture these days, “And we have done this and this other thing.” But there’s’ nothing really in a progression across time that is a mandatory component of a story.

Like if we were to talk about business stories, for instance, I remember the woman who invented spandex. For all the women listeners, I’m sure that everyone has heard of the product. And when she’s interviewed and you go online and you read her stories, you hear how, at first, she started in her own apartment, and how she was trying on things in the bathroom, and how she was experimenting things in the kitchen, and then she tried to get a meeting with somebody at Neiman Marcus, and the meeting was going poorly until she convinced one of those executives to go with her to the bathroom and try this product on under some white pants.

And from then on, she wore those white pants for three years to convince many other people to buy into the product. So, see how things just progress across time. First this happened, then this happened, and as a result this other thing happened. So, we go from A to B to C and each is a consequence of the previous stage, and that’s the mandatory component of a story.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, so I’m interested. When it comes to, say, like a business telling a story, a lot of times it’s about growth, “We had this many units or this much revenue, and now we have these many units and this much revenue and it’s much bigger.” And so, but in a way, those aren’t really actions. It’s just sort of an output or measurement. And so, how would you maybe make that translation?

Carmen Simon
Yes, so if we’d go from that list of facts, because if you’re saying, “In 2016 we sold these many units, and in 2017 we sold these many units, and therefore we have grown by this percentage,” that’s almost kind of an action because you would have to make it show, “How did you get to point B as a result of point A?” Was it somebody that you hired?

Because, imagine if you said, “In 2016 we sold this, and then we hired this amazing VP of sales. I mean, this guy, he used to work for such and such. And then he sold his company, and then he did some other things. And then he moved to the US, and despite his accent he created all these relationships, and did this and this other thing. And as a result, then here we are 2017 with an increased in this.” So, see how now you’re showing how B is a result of A.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, certainly, “Or that individual customers were so delighted that they shared stories like so and so from Mississippi who put this on her Facebook and sort of shares of that nature just naturally resulted in so many more people buying it, and thusly we have this number of units now.”

Carmen Simon
Yeah, and you would have to be careful about showing causation which it’s a tricky thing because causation is what we would consider, from a storytelling perspective, a plot. So, you’re saying if your customer has posted such and such on Facebook, and then somebody else saw it and as a result they, too, purchased the product. And then they went to another customer, and as a result of that then this is what happened.

And sometimes, especially when we deal with technology-oriented things or science-oriented products, people are so afraid of causation that they will only stick to just a list of facts, inviting the audience to draw their own conclusions, and because we’re saying the audience has such a cognitive lazy inclination anyway, they may not often make that leap. So, not only are you less persuasive but you’re not really sharing a story.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, interesting. So, then, the key distinction there is that, you’re saying, be careful of causation and don’t sort of say it’s because of it, but share what happened. Let’s see, set me straight here, Carmen.

Carmen Simon
Yeah, well, causation is sexy and tricky at the same time. Causation is what enables you to fully stay truthful to a story in a sense of A caused B which then caused C, but then having the boldness and the accuracy to make a causation statement, that’s where it’s at.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Carmen Simon
Do you have what it takes to stand behind your causation? That’s the question I would ask anyone listening. Because, for example, some of my clients are from the biotech industry, and when they try to sell a specific product to a doctor’s office they have to be cautious about saying, “You will get this product, and as a result, for sure, this is what’s going to happen.”

Pete Mockaitis
I hear you. So, you don’t say it.

Carmen Simon
Yeah, it doesn’t mean that you always have to share a story, by the way. So, if that’s your field and you’re afraid of causation, you don’t necessarily have to go there, but then don’t claim you’re telling stories.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, it’s just about saying that it caused it as opposed to sharing a sequence of events that imply it.

Carmen Simon
Yeah, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. All right. I’m with you. Tracking along. Thank you. Okay. So, then how about the affective component?

Carmen Simon
Yes, so the cognitive we have no problems with because facts and abstracts definitely dominate. For the affective component, I think one of the biggest insights that I got from this study were that just having the presence of emotions still doesn’t guarantee memory. Sometimes that’s another statement that I hear made very frequently, “Oh, if you want to have something memorable, and especially a memorable story, you definitely have to always have emotion.” Not true.

For instance, people will say, “Oh, stories like 9/11, or the Space Challenger disaster, or Oklahoma bombing, those, of course, will be memorable.” Not that fast. For example, in some of the groups that I had designed in my study, people read a 9/11 story, people read a Space Challenger story but they also read stories like, “I will never forget the time when my co-worker complimented me on LinkedIn. It was just such a touchy message, I had posted this, and then they reacted like that, and then I said this. And that just meant a lot to me in my career,” or something along those lines.

Or, “I will never forget my cousin’s wedding because this is what happened.” And those things were a lot more memorable than the world’s history stories, so to speak, even though the emotion was not as strong but it was more relatable, you see. So, if you ever have the choice, and you’re looking at your content and you’re thinking, “Boy, my content is kind of dry. I could never match the emotion of a disaster or something that just happened. Everybody paid attention to it.” Don’t even worry about it because relevance quite often trumps emotion.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Interesting. So, could you maybe help us tie this all together in terms of maybe sharing a couple examples of messages or stories transformed sort of before from one of your clients, and then you did some tweaks and reframing and communicating it differently to an after that had such a greater impact in memorability?

Carmen Simon
Well, let’s look at this one that I’m working on this week, and it’s not finalized but I think all of our listeners are going to be able to relate to it. So, the before version comes across like this. “Welcome, everyone. We’ve had an interesting and challenging 2017. It’s prompting me to remember why is it I’m working at this place anyway. And I’ve worked here because of some professional opportunities that we all have. It’s also the right timing because the technologies that are happening in the field are just at the right intersection,” and so it goes, and so it goes from fact to fact to fact to fact which is just assumed in story as we said.

The recommendations that I’m making and the after example is going to include something along the lines, “Okay, we have had a challenging 2017, and it’s prompting me to reflect why am I working at this company. Well, it’s a wonderful professional opportunity. And what do I mean by this? I remember a time when I was looking for the intersection of just the right technologies, and I was working for this company and this other executive walked in and he said this to me. And then that’s how I reacted, and that’s when I realized that things were a little bit different, and then I read this other article.”

And see how I’m going with, “This is what’s happening,” and the more I zoom in and the sensory details are stronger, and he’s able to show pictures of his older executive office, so we can see him working for that company and as he moved to another company. So, now it becomes more become sensory intense and things that happened and then caused another thing and they caused another thing, and now we can abstract it out and say, “It was a great professional opportunity.”

Or in the initial, let’s call a story between quotes, he’s talking about coming to work to this company because he wanted to work with people he could trust. Notice how abstract that is. But in the after version, I’m prompting him to say, “Well, so who is that?” So, he’s showing some other guy’s picture and how he served as a best man at his wedding, so we’re killing two birds with that stone because not only is he now showing some sensory stimulation that’s stronger because, “I enjoy seeing the pictures of the wedding and the champagne and people dancing,” but the emotion is now present.

Because it’s one thing to say, “I’m working here with people that I can trust,” and it’s just an abstract concept, but another to see them hugging and see them in their suits and see them in such a nice human-like moment.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I really like that. And so, you’re bringing up the usage of visuals, of slides, which I think can really be helpful because I think sometimes I might feel, perhaps, a little bit awkward going too big and using my words to try to paint an imagery picture like, “Oh, someone fancies himself a novelist over there.” Whereas you could say, “And he was the best man at my wedding,” and then you show an image, and they go, “Oh, that’s the wedding.” And so, then, you can go a long way by bringing those visuals in, even of the desk, of the workplace, of the wedding.

Carmen Simon
So true. And the nice thing about being able to do that is then, obviously, those pictures are also going to add the extra words that are even unspoken so you can get a lot more done in a short period of time.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Well, I was going to go there next in terms of trying to make an impact with a story I think that’s a concern some might say, “You know, well, I’ve got exactly three minutes or five minutes of time to make these points. I don’t have time to go down and make a story especially with all these impactful affective details that you’re describing.” So, what are some of the ways to get some of that goodness in a shorter period of time? One is by using visuals or slides. Any other tips there?

Carmen Simon
I really like that question because you’re so right, people are concerned that they don’t have enough time to share stories. And for any of our listeners who are married, and sometimes they get their spouse’s reaction, it’s like, “Come on, get to the point. I don’t have time for all of these details.”

Pete Mockaitis
I’ve never said that. One year in, I’ve managed to not say that.

Carmen Simon
You just recently got married. You just give it a few years.

Pete  
Okay.

Carmen Simon
But executives and some other business audience may have a similar reaction, “Just get to the point.” And so, one of the ways that you could still want to share a story, but you’re afraid that you don’t have enough time, the advice would be to earn the right to tell the details.

And the way to do that is to respond first to people’s expectations. And as we said, facts are just zoomed-in stories, and if your audiences are indeed expecting facts at first then give those first. So, if I’m presenting to some executives and they do want to hear about the growth that has happened in the past two years and they want to see some charts, that’s my intro. I’m not going to start with, “It was a dark and stormy night, and the clouds were just approaching, and I knew something drastic was going to happen.” You see?

But if I share with you the right amount of information that you expect, then I’m earning the right for a few more minutes of some other details, and then I can say, “The reason that we got to these numbers is because of that one dark stormy night when you would not believe what happened.” So, as a communicator, you’re a choreographer of your audience’s expectations. See to those first and then you earn the right for a few extra minutes where you can fill in the details that would make it a story.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s excellent. Very good. Any other perspectives on the time perspective?

Carmen Simon
Yes. So, obviously, time would be correlated with the length of a story. What I noticed in my study was that there is such a thing as too short of a story beyond which it becomes forgettable. And the length that I noticed people that they remember stories, the sweet spot, was somewhere around 600 words which would be about two or three paragraphs, and I would always suggest that if you want to have a memorable story, write it down first and then make sure that you say it verbally so that you don’t sound as if you’re too scripted. You still speak it. It’s not a story meant for writing.

But 600 to about 900 words if you want to be a really polished storyteller because, otherwise, you won’t be having the opportunity to do justice to a context to those sensory details, or build some of those emotions in there.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, now, Carmen, I love it when you drop a number. That’s intriguing. So, 600 to 900 words is a sweet spot there. We’re talking about memory and stories and memorability and this good stuff. Are there any other kind of key rules of thumb or numbers that leap to mind?

Carmen Simon
Yeah, let’s look at this concept of the emotion just a little bit more closely because I think it’s so widely misunderstood when it comes to memory. Emotion, when you’re kind of disconcerting, come from three sources. It can come from the nature of the content, because if you’re talking about medicine or people in Kenya, immediately the nature of the content draws an emotion.

But sometimes, in business, we don’t have the luxury of that. We talk about, like you said, trucks or web architectures or predictive analytics. Sometimes there isn’t a whole lot of emotion inherently associated with our content. So, then, what do you do, because you still need some emotion to make something memorable?

And the other two sources can be your audience can be a source of emotion. So, if you’re talking to people who are extremely invested in a topic, who are either elated or upset, they bring their own emotions that then contribute to the formation of some memories, or you can be the source of emotion as the transmitter of that message.

For example, while I was listening to these people talk about predictive analytics a few months back, and they were the most excited about this product and this technology that I had ever seen. I could have listened to those guys go on forever about predictive analytics. So, as you’re pondering your own question or your own content, question the chemistry that you have with your own content because when that chemistry is there, then you can be the source of emotion, and immediately you’re going to have an increased chance at memory.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s excellent. Well, Carmen, tell me, is there anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about your favorite things?

Carmen Simon
Oh, my favorite things. Let’s see, anything related to memory. Since we’re talking about emotion, another reminder that I would have for our listeners is that what we remember is not necessarily the emotion itself. We remember quite often the transition from one emotional state to another. And the sharper the contrast the stronger the emotions.

So, for example, let’s just say that I shared with you that I fell off a bike and, obviously, that’s a negative emotion. But then if I said, “I fell off a bike and then got ran over by a car,” see how you reacted, and that’s when the memory got formed, because the first one, yeah, I had some emotion but the sharper the contrast between two emotional states that you’re creating for your audiences then the stronger the memory.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s potent. It’s so funny, I was imagining that you’re going to contrast by going to something really happy, but then you just went to extra, extra bad.

Carmen Simon
Yes, you can go positive and then double positive. Like if I said, “I went to Vegas and I won 50 bucks. And then I pressed a button and next I won 50 million,” that you probably created a memory just now because you went just super, super, super happy. But then you can go the other way of negative to quadruple negative, and that’s how memories are formed.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, excellent. Thank you. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Carmen Simon
Ooh, a favorite quote. Let’s just see. Just the other day I saw this thing on the internet, and you know we believe everything that we read on the internet, but this quote just really resonated with me. It said, “You have survived a 100% of your worst days. You’re doing great.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that is nice. Thank you. And how about a favorite book?

Carmen Simon
Ooh, let’s see. A favorite book that I just bought and just started reading is called Supercasting. I’m intrigued by this notion that the brain is constantly on fast-forward as you can imagine, and some people can predict better than others, what gets us to be better predictors.

Pete Mockaitis
When you say predict, you mean just in terms of what is going to happen next in your environment?

Carmen Simon
Yeah, exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, intriguing. Thank you.

Carmen Simon
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite tool?

Carmen Simon
Oh, a tool. I have to admit that someone just ordered the iPhone X, and they returned it so that’s not going to be a favorite tool. I’m curious as to why that happened. I do like this flashlight that I just got that has different settings depending on how dark or so kind of almost light it is outside. Have you seen those flashlights?

Pete Mockaitis
So, it’s sensing the environment and adjusting its light?

Carmen Simon
Yeah, yeah, small things. Small pleasures.

Pete Mockaitis
Nice. Thank you. And then how about a favorite habit?

Carmen Simon
A favorite habit is hiking at the end of a full workday.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful.

Carmen Simon
In search of a beautiful view, because you just can’t be hiking. You have to hike with a purpose.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a particular nugget you’ve been sharing recently at MEMZY that seems to really be connecting and resonating with your clients?

Carmen Simon
A particular…

Pete Mockaitis
Just something that you say or share in your work with clients.

Carmen Simon
Oh, yes, there is. The line that people seem to resonate with and remember is this notion that as we are exposed to content we forget about 90% of that stimulation, so it’s important to control the 10% they remember. So, that has become a favorite mantra, and quite often when people come back to me and they talk to me, they’ll say, “Let me share with you what my 10% message is to my own clients,” and that warms my heart because when they mention that phrase, “What is my 10% or my 10% message is,” then I know I’m able to stay on their minds and that’s a challenge that I share with all of the listeners today. What is your 10%? And are you in control of that?

Pete Mockaitis
And, Carmen, if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Carmen Simon
MEMZY.com, M-E-M-Z-Y, and the Twitter handler is @areyoumemorable, and of course LinkedIn Carmen Simon. I’d love to stay in touch and I would want to hear what is your 10% message that you want to put on other people’s minds.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Carmen Simon
Yes, the challenge would be that of precision because we cannot ultimately control everything that goes on in people’s minds, and sometimes we want to overshare. So, I would say don’t attempt to get people to remember more but get them to remember less and better.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, Carmen, this has been a whole lot of fun all over again. Thank you and good luck with MEMZY and all you’re up to.

Carmen Simon
Thank you so much. Thank you, Pete. You do the same.

Dec 01

236: Persuasion Pointers from a Legendary Infomercial Pitchman with Anthony Sullivan

By Podcasts No Comments

 

Anthony Sullivan says: "I'm going to walk in that room and I'm going to get this. Even if I don't get it, I'm going to die trying."

Infomercial star Anthony “Sully” Sullivan shares his best lessons learned about the art and science of persuasion.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Approaches to understanding the pain and being the cure
  2. How to make an entrance and take control
  3. Why you should own your nerves and not hide them

About Sully 

Best-known as the spokesman for OxiClean, Anthony is the pitchman of choice for dozens of innovative, practical usage consumer products including the X5 5-in-1 Steamer, the Sticky Buddy and Smart Mop. Star and Co-Producer of the Discovery Channel series “PitchMen,” Sully is also a regular guest of choice on a variety of television news and entertainment outlets including “The Today Show,”  “Good Morning America,” “Rachel Ray,” “The Tonight Show,” “Conan” and “Katie,” as well as news programs MSNBC, ABC, CBS, BBC and Fox News Channel.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Pete Mockaitis
Sully, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Anthony Sullivan
Thank you for having me. The whole idea of being awesome at your job just is, who does not want to be awesome at their job?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, cool. Well, certainly, that’s how we think and believe here, and so it’s fun to have someone who is legendary at a particular job of pitching products. But I’d like to, for a moment, hear a quick version of your backstory about coming to America, sleeping in a van, and selling mops. How did this unfold?

Anthony Sullivan
You know, every time I tell this story I think back to what an epic journey it was. I was about 20 and I was a little bit lost in my career, I didn’t have a career. I had bartended, I had my own karaoke show, I had delivered slot machines and pool tables, I had swept floors, I had managed a bar, and I was a little bit lost. And I was kind of weighing up going back to university to get a degree. I couldn’t find a passion, I say, “What am I going to do?” And my mom was trying to convince me to get into journalism. She said, “You’re a writer. You love to write. Why don’t you go to Cardiff University and get a degree in journalism?”

So, while I was hovering around, in between in kind of this sort of space where I wasn’t quite sure what’s happening, I stumbled across a friend of mine had a market stand. And being a market trader in England is a little bit looked down upon. Market traders are seen as somewhat maybe a little bit shady and very few people, at least from my background, kind of looked up to guys that worked at markets, kind of a flea market thing. And I never really went to the market.

Anyway, my friend had a stand, and it’s traveling market around in North Devon and he sold T-shirts and he had a speeding ticket, and he said, “Look, it’s Wednesday. Can you go down to the market stand? I’m going to go to court and fight my speeding ticket. Can you just go and watch my market stand?” I didn’t have anything to do, so I said, “All right. I’ll go down.”

So, opposite me is this guy selling these car washes called The Amazing Wash-Matic. And while I’m sitting there, drinking cups of tea, selling one T-shirt every hour because, you know, I was just literally watching his stall for him while he was in court, and I was mesmerized by this guy who was selling these car washes, and he would do a pitch.

It was the first time I ever paid attention to a pitch. I had seen people pitching products before but here I was for seven hours, it was a beautiful sunny day, and I watched this guy. And by the end of the day I could almost do the pitch because he must’ve done it 50 times, you know, I want to say five minutes, and so 12 in an hour. So, at least 50 times I heard it.

And I started to count his money. They say never count other people’s money, right? But I was bored so I’m like, “Oh, my God, this guy is selling five to six car washes every five minutes, and at 10 pounds a pop, he just popped out like 700 pounds worth of car washes, or $1500.” And I was just fascinated by his pitch. He said the same thing, over and over again, and every time he would finish, he converted it into a sale. And I’m like, “Man, if I have to stand out there in the market, I’d much rather be pitching than just sitting here waiting for people to come to me.”

So, I went over to him at the end of the day, I introduced myself, and he sort of was boxing up his lack of product because he’s sold it all, and he kind of blew me off and drove off. Anyway, I went back to my friend’s house that night who went to get his speeding ticket, his name was Phil. I said, “Phil, that guy, Mark, he’s unbelievable.” I said, “You got to tell him that I want to work for him. I want to do what he does.”

So, Phil, being a good friend of mine, went over, he said, “Hey, my friend, Sully, was watching the stand. He really wants to do this.” So, long story short, the guy teaches me how to pitch, and he was very, very clear to me, he said, “This is what you’re going to do. You’re going to write this down with a tape recorder,” I took an old-school tape recorder with me, and he dictated the pitch, or he did the pitch and I wrote it down on a piece of paper, I stuck it to my visor in my car, and I learned it word for word.

And he said, “When you know it word for word, come back to me and you can have a try at it and see if you’re any good at it.” Well, it’s kind of funny, so I literally learned it word for word. I stopped at a stop light, took my visor down, I read it and I put it back up, and I memorized it. It was about two pages of copy, which is quite a lot of copy to remember, but I remembered it word for word.

So, I called him up, back in the day they didn’t have cellphones, I rang him at home, I say, “Hey, Mark, I think I’m ready to come and pitch.” So, he said, “Come down to the markets tomorrow at 12:00 o’clock and try your hand at it, see if you’re any good at it.” So, I get down there, and he literally, I showed up and said, “Hey, Mark,” it’s 12:00 o’clock. He throws me the car washing device, it’s called the Car Wash-Matic, I think I told you that. And then he just walks up, he says, “Good luck. You got an hour. Just knock yourself out.”

So, I’m sitting there, and I’m like, “Holy crap, I got to go. I’ve got to pitch.” And I had never pitched in my life. I knew the words but I’m like, “How do you get a crowd?” The only thing I failed to do, I’d never really practiced with the unit. So, I knew the words and I knew how to work it but I’d never actually put it all together.

So, anyway, this guy comes up to me, he says, “Hey, how does this thing work?” And I’m like, “Okay, I’ll show you.” So, I’m like, all right, go into the pitch, I guess, so I did the pitch. I wish I had it on tape because it was probably the worst pitch in the history of pitches. Anyway, I got a little crowd, and I was like, “Oh, my God, I got a crowd of people here.” And before I knew it there were 10 people standing around watching me fumble through my first presentation with my first pitch.

Anyway, sold one, and I couldn’t believe it. I was like, “Holy crap, I’d never done this before and I sold one car wash to the guy that asked me how it worked.” Well, in that hour actually I ended up selling seven.

Pete Mockaitis
There you go.

Anthony Sullivan
So, Mark came back, and he said, “How many did you sell?” And I said, “I sold seven.” And he said, “Seven?” and I gave him 70 pounds, and then he looked at me, he’s like, “You sold seven in your first hour of ever doing this?” I said, “Yes. Is that good or bad?” He said, “That’s amazing. It’s like I didn’t expect you to sell any.”

So, that was my introduction to pitching, and it was great. I remember the transaction, it was like striking gold for me. I was like, “This is just… I’m loving this. All I got to do is talk and people will hand me money.” So, very quickly, I ended out in London. I took to it like a duck to water. I went from all over Devon to Cardiff to Bristol, and then people would watch me work. And I got asked to come to London to work in sort of big leagues, if you will, of that world, the big-name street markets like Petticoat Lane, Wembley Stadium, Black Bush.

So, I went from this little country market, country bumpkin because I’m from the boondocks of England, to working fairly high-profile markets with mobsters. I mean, I worked for Charlie Kray who’s one of the infamous Kray Brothers. I worked for Charlie for a little while. And then I turned the TV on one day, and this is the quick story, I got to shorten the story up.

But I turned the TV on one day and I see my first infomercial, and that’s when the lightbulb really went off, and I’m like, “You know what, I got to go. I got to get on TV. I need to get off the street,” because it was tough. It was London, it was cold, it was raining. It all sounds great when I talk about it, but there were a couple of days when I break even and be pouring down with rain, and it was a really sketchy crowd, and I’d have to drive and my gas money, and just making ends meet in the winter time.
So, long story, I met a guy who lived in L.A. and he was selling this mop called the Super Shammy Mop, and I tried to sell this in London and it didn’t go very well because for various reasons it just didn’t sell well in England. And I heard it was selling well in America, called him up and said, “I will come out for free, and I would work for free, just let me work in America.” So, he agreed, I jumped on a plane, sold all my belongings, everything I had, cashed in everything, gave my escort van to my brother, and told my family I’m going to America, to L.A. to seek my fortune and going to get on television. And everybody laughed. Everyone.

My mom taught I was crazy. My dad actually believed in me, he’s like, “You go, son.” But I think they all thought I’d be back. And my coworkers, my neighbors, my friends, my landlord, they’re like, “You’re going to go to America to sell mops. What are you, out of your mind?” So, I landed in L.A. in 1993, and I’d actually been to L.A. before surfing, my surf trip, so I did know the lay of the land a little bit. I’ve been to Hawaii surfing, and I started beating the streets in L.A.

And, obviously, as usual, nowhere could I get on television. Now, everyone kept telling me, “You need to be on TV,” and I was like, “Yeah, I know, but who do I talk to? I don’t know who’s going to discover me.” And people will come up and offer, “Oh, we need to get you on TV.” And I said, “Yeah, I know. How do we make this happen?” I was so eager.

Anyway, in L.A. I worked up and down the West Coast selling mops and it was great, Ventura County Fair, Costa Mesa, San Diego, Boat Shows, San Jose, Portland, I also went into Vegas a couple of times, I went over to Phoenix.

Anyway, I got a phone call to go to Miami, and they were like, “Hey, do you want to do the Miami Home Show?” And I was like, “Yes,” just so I could. I need to get out of up north. Now on the way down to Miami we stopped off, me and my partner at the time, we stopped off in Clearwater because we had a week off. And I drove past HSN, and I was like, “Oh, that’s the shopping network.” I’d seen it on television, and I’m like, “Oh, maybe that’s an opportunity.”

We went down to Miami to the Miami Home Show, had a great time, spring break, two young European guys, girls everywhere. Now I felt like I was back having a little bit of a better time. I mean, we had made some money and I’m still living in the van, and we ended up working the same Home Show at Tropicana Field where the race play now, the Lightning used to play there, Tampa Bay Lightning, and a buyer came up to me from HSN, her name was Nancy Cooney, and she watched my pitch three times, and I called her out. I said, “You’re going to buy something because you just can’t stand there and watch me? I’m not here for entertainment.” That’s how cocky I used to be.

She said, “No, I’m not going to buy anything from you now, but I think I want to put you on television. I think you would be great.” And she handed me a business card, and it said, “Nancy Cooney, Buyer, Home Shopping Club.” I was like, “Oh, my God.” I was so rude to her. And she gave me my first break, and she got me on TV, and they ordered 5,000 mops, and we sold 5,000 mops in 23 minutes. And I remember that was the very first time I got on TV, and that’s when I knew I wasn’t going home. The day I got off TV, I was like, “I made it. I did it. I got on television.”

And It happened fairly quick. When I look back on it, I mean, I was so impatient. I was in my early 20s. I wanted everything to happen. Within a year of coming to America, I was in front of 90 million people pitching my mops on TV. So, when I look back on it, sometimes I think it was a stroke of luck, was it right time, right place. Some people say – what do they say – luck is preparation meets opportunity. I’ve looked back on it and I’m like, “How did I end up in front of that woman at that time when she made a decision to get me on television?” And it all just fell into place. And that’s how it all started, and I haven’t looked back.

I’ve had a couple of challenges along in my career, I’ve had some bad years, but at the curve, the growth curve of my ability to learn and to, I think, grow in my business, there’s been a few peaks and troughs, peaks and valleys, but’s it’s been, “We’re going to have double-digit growth this year again.” I’ve met the late, great Billy Mays, and I’m extremely grateful and fortunate to have made a career doing something that’s quite odd. There’s not very many of us. I’m a pitchman and that’s what I do, and I guess I’m good at it.

At first, I’d be a little bit embarrassed about it when I first started out I’m working the markets and it’s kind of a lowly profession. My mom used to give me crap about it all the time. She’d be like, “You know you’re a market trader. That’s not what I sent you to school for. You’re better than that.” But in the minute I got on television she changed her tune, “My son is on television.” So, that’s how it all started.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s fascinating, and thank you for walking us through that there. And so, I want to talk about some of the learning then. When you talked about it’s a rare profession, not a lot of people do it specifically, I think all of us do persuasion all the time in terms of getting folks to say yes to agree to what we want them to do.

And so, I would love it if you could share with us some of like the top principles you think are particularly applicable to professionals? Like if someone is asking for a raise, or want someone to buy into a proposal, or get budget allocated for an initiative or project, what do you think are some of the top lessons you have picked up over time that totally applied to these kinds of context?

Anthony Sullivan
Obviously, I just finished my book and you can’t go to college to learn to pitch, there’s no degree. And I feel like sometimes there should be. It should be mandatory in a sales course, sales and marketing, to understand the dynamics and the architecture and the mechanics of what makes a great pitch. So, I tried to look back at, “What was the structure of the Wash-Matic pitch? What was the structure of the Smart Mop pitch? How did I sell 5 million Swivel Sweepers?”

So, I started to look back at it. And even today, we’re actually looking a new mop called the Hurricane In-and-Out Mop, and I’m actually working the pitch today, and I had one of my colleagues break out an iPhone just to tape me doing it, and I’ve never done it before. And I watched it back actually and I started to make myself smile, I’m like, “Man, I got that.” I’m watching myself and I started to go, “I’m relaxed and I just seem like I’m having a conversation with myself.” I’m like, “Man, I’m not even selling that. I’m just enthusiastically getting you to get interested in what I’m doing and just by sheer magnetism getting you excited enough about the product where you’ll give me money.”

And that’s why, when I’m selling product, I just said I’m selling it, but I don’t feel like I’m selling. I feel like I’m having a conversation where I’m getting you interested and I’m getting you to buy in.” And in the cover of the book, I wrote Control any situation, create fierce agreement and get what you want out of life.

The fierce agreement part is something I sat down with my co-writer and I am like, “If you are in a situation where you want a raise, or you want to get your kids to eat at a restaurant where they normally wouldn’t want to go, say, you want to get sushi and they want to eat mac and cheese, or you’re going to walk into a room and you want to get funded, or you need a loan, or you’re trying to get into college, you’re going to find yourself in a pitching situation.”

So, what I tried to do is like, “How do I apply the principles that I sell product to selling yourself?” And in the book, I have 10 principles and I talk about know your acceptable outcomes and obsessive preparation are things that I talk about, when to push back, to never be closing. But one of the things that really hit me today, I have this unwavering belief in the product that I’m excited about and I think the energy, there’s a certain energy where you can just pick up on my level of enthusiasm and authenticity for the product.

And I think before you even go into a situation where you’re selling yourself, you’re pitching yourself, you got to do a mental check and it’s almost look in the mirror, and there’s a scene in The Wolf of Wall Street where Matthew McConaughey does that strange thing where he bangs his chest. I almost think before any – and I kind of wish I put this in the book – you got to go in with this positive mindset where, “I’m going to get this. I’m going to do this. Failure sounds so silly. I’m going to walk in that room and I’m going to get this. Even if I don’t get it, I’m going to die trying. I’m going to leave it all in there so even if I don’t get it I still can walk out with my head proud.” Because you’re not going to get everything all the time.

I failed. I’ve pitched to a hundred people and every single one of them walked off. But then the next pitch, I have pitched to a hundred people and sold 25 units, so it doesn’t always work. But I do that smile, and that shoulders back, and that confident attitude is something that you can’t teach, and that’s something that I really feel that some people kind of do walk around with their head down, and they have that “poor me” attitude. You’ve got to shake that completely.

And Tony Robbins will talk about this, the passion and enthusiasm, the smile, it’s got to be there, “It’s going to happen. I’m going to win. I’m going to win. I’m going to get the job. I’m going to get the job. She’s going to give me the number. She’s going to give me the number. We are going to eat sushi tonight. The kids will eat sushi. This is going to happen.” So, it’s sort of like get your eye on the prize, and get your head in the mental game. So, once you got that organized then, I think, if you study the 10 pitch powers that I talk about in the book, and I can run through them real quick.

Pete Mockaitis
You know what, the way I’d love to do this, if we could, is, all right, so we start from a place of unwavering belief, we got this smile, the shoulders back, the confidence, you completely believe it, the passion, the enthusiasm, the eye on the prize, okay. So, it’s like we’re ready to start from that starting line.

So, maybe could you walk us through over the course of, I don’t know, five or 10 minutes. Let’s say we’re going to make a pitch at work associated with, “Hey, you should promote me and/or give me a raise.” Could you maybe walk us through, “All right, how are we going to rock each of those powers to make this come together in a compelling pitch?”

Anthony Sullivan
Absolutely. Take a raise, for example, it happens to me a lot. I have employees. My employees actually are pretty good because they know. I’m like, “Don’t come in, if you want to raise, you’re going to have to pitch me on why I’ll give you a raise.” And I’m pretty good at like, “If it’s a good pitch, I’m buying what you’re selling if your pitch is great.” So, I love it when my people come in to me and they pitch me.

The first thing I do, in the book I talk about, “Right, you’re going to walk into a room. You need to know your acceptable outcomes. You have to have very clear, defined, set of goals that you’re willing to, your price, you’re going to start right.” “I’m making 50,000 a year, I want 60. It’d be nice to get 57,500. I’ll settle for 55. If you continue to pay me 50 I’m going to quit.” So you got three. You’re going in with a very clear, defined objective that you’re right.

So, before you even walk into a room you know what it is that you want. You’re making 50,000, you want 60, you’ll settle for 57.5, but 55 will do it, “If you don’t give me 55, I’m leaving.” And you need to be prepared to stick with that and have the fortitude to say, “Well, I’m going to walk in and this is what I want and this is what I’m going to go for.” So, you go on for 60 but you’ll accept 55. I like that because it takes away, now, it’s very clear. When you walk in, the person on the other end of the desk is going to go, “You know, they know exactly what they want,” and right there, that to me is very compelling.

I talk about understanding the pain and being the cure, right? If I’m an employer, if my employee understands the kind of stress that I’m in and the pain that I’m suffering because our accounting department is overloaded and we’re not getting paid on time, I’m going to go walk in here with a clear plan, “Well, here’s the deal, we’re in accounting, the accounts receivable is 90 days. We got $600,000 uncollected. So, I’m going to walk in here,” now you’re going to walk in immediately with a pitch in how you’re going to improve your employer’s life.

It could be you’re going to make a harder, better coffee if you’re a receptionist. You’ve decided that you don’t like the phone system works and you’re going to answer the phone in a better way, “And, by the way, I’m no longer a receptionist. I want to call myself the Director of First Impressions because I believe that everyone who walks in the door is the first thing they see is me. I’m the lowly receptionist, but I don’t want to be called the receptionist anymore. My new title is I want to be the Director of First Impressions and this is what I’m going to do for you.”

And you’re going to literally start listing off, before you even get into the money situation. Obviously, you’re going to walk in and say you’d like a raise, “And here’s what I’m going to do for you.” Not, “I deserve,” and, “I feel,” and, “I’ve been here for a year, and I think it’s my annual review.” Bollocks to that. They’ve heard all that.

You’re going to go in and you got to start rattling off the 10 things, the 10 or 15 or whatever you think you can do to improve your odds. Write them down. Walk in with a piece of paper, you know your acceptable outcomes, and you start just going down that list of how you’re going to make your employer’s life better. You haven’t even got into the money situation yet, he just knows you want a raise.

I talk about, in pitch power number 3, obsessive preparation. There’s a high likelihood that your boss knows. I know when my guys want a raise, “Can I get a meeting with you next Wednesday?” I pretty much know what’s coming of their mouth when they want that meeting, it’s a review and a raise. So, most people are going to be afraid, right? You’re going to walk in, it’s an intimidating environment, some bosses are super tyrannical. Practice. Go with your wife, your roommate, your buddies down at the bar and practice asking for this raise. Practice the eye contact. Practice in front of a mirror. I don’t give a crap. Like, get in, practice it.

And then I talk about breaching the forcefield. Make an entrance and take control is power number 4. When you walk in the room, I don’t want you to walk in the room like Billy Mays, “Hi, Billy Mays here.” But make an entrance, I talked about this earlier, shoulders back, smile, look good, firm handshake, shut the door behind you, take your seat without being asked, don’t be intimidated, sit down, take control of the room. I’m not talking about taking total control but take as much control of the situation as you can.

So, make it very clear, “I know you’re busy, Mr. Sullivan, but I just need five minutes of your time,” and sit down and make great eye contact, look good, and get right to the point, then you’re not sitting there flustering not knowing what you’re going to do. I talk about breaching the forcefield. I don’t know if this is so necessary in a job situation.

Reach across the desk, shake hands, make a comment on how great your boss looks today, or ask about how his kids are doing in school, some random bit of information or some exchange that is off-topic that warms the room a little bit, “Did you see the game last night? Great game. How’s your kids doing in school?” Something just to make it so it’s not all about the asking for the money. Get that relationship warmed up a little bit.

Power number 6. Facts tell, story sell. One of kind of the pillars of sales is the feature benefit part of it. Features and benefits are great but if you can weave a story into your pitch, “The other day when you came in and it was pouring out with rain and we didn’t have an umbrella or something and you slipped on the floor, and blah, blah, blah,” if you can weave a story and get some humor into your pitch, you can personalize it. And, all of a sudden, your ask becomes related to something that actually happened. Keep the story on point.

You know, I have 10 pals here, and I don’t know if I’m going on too long here.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, no, keep going.

Anthony Sullivan
If you make a mistake, which is highly likely that you probably will, in asking for a raise situation, you might be so nervous that you’re sweating. Own it. You might not be able to get that confidence, you might feel like you’re being shut down, you can just tell him, “You know, I’m very nervous asking you for this but I’m going to have a crack at it.” Own the nerves. So, if you are a nervous person, don’t hide it. We will see it. You can tell who are public speaking who are terrified at public speaking.

Rather than sit there and just shake, own your nerves, “I’m really nervous today, boss. Just to let you know I have a great respect for you and I’m shaking in my boots, but here it goes anyway.” The person on the other end of the transaction will respect you for respecting them, and owning the fact that you’re nervous. If you’re going to ask your high-profile executive for a raise, it can be nerve-wracking.

One of my favorites is there’s a high chance that your boss is just going to say, “No, there’s no money this year. There’s no money in the budget. We don’t have a raise for you. You’re going to have to work.” If you really believe, there’s a couple of things going on there. Firstly, it’s easy for them to say no, right? “No raise.” What are you going to do? You have to bank on this happening, “No, we don’t have any money plus you’ve done a lousy job.”

This is when I talk about pushing back. You double down here. You sit there and go, “Right. Let me just start again,” and you push right back. Now, I believe that a lot of people who say no the first time are doing it just to see what you’re made from, “What are you made of? How badly do you want this?” It’s quite often a coach won’t start a player, right? They want the player to want to be on the field, so that no sometimes is not a no. It’s just they want to see what you got. If they say no, double down. Now, sometimes a no is a no is a no is a no, and you’re like, “You know what, this isn’t going to work,” and just bail.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, when you say double down, do you simply mean repeat yourself or how do you…?

Anthony Sullivan
Yes, you lean in, repeat yourself. Just go back and say, “I don’t know if you really heard what I’m saying here, but let me be very clear,” and just go in again. Go for the second pitch because the pitch didn’t work the first time. Go in again and have a plan for the no. So, you’ve got maybe, “But, wait, there’s more” moment. “All right, look. I’ll tell you what I’ll do.” This is where your acceptable outcomes, “Okay, here’s what. I wanted this but I’m going to do this and I’m going to do this.”

So, I like to push back. I don’t do it all the time. There’s been plenty of times when I’ve been selling stuff and I’m looking at selling at this person who’s never going to buy. You just want to get them out of the room. And you won’t know that, I think, until you’re in the room, and then sometimes you just bail, right? The person is not engaged and this isn’t going to work.

And one of the last things I talk in my book is never be closing. I’m not a big fan of the close. I know you have to finish and you have to wrap it up, and there are times in a conversation, “Okay, so next steps.” But I’m not a big fan of the hard close. Like, did you ever see the movie Glengarry Glen Ross?

Pete Mockaitis
Right. Yes, indeed. The ABC.

Anthony Sullivan
The ABC, always be closing. A action, B I forget. First prize set of Cadillac, second prize a set of steak knives, third prize you’re fired. I feel like closing is reserved for timeshare salesman who are, by the way, if you like to close that hard, are some of the best at what they do, they block the door, you can’t get out, it’s like you’re in a maze, they turn the AC all the way, the heat all the way up.

I believe if you pitch correctly, and you’ve taken the steps that I talked about, you’ve shaken hands, you’ve made eye contact, you’ve stated your case, you’ve pushed back, you’ve prepared obsessively, you’ve got your boss nodding, you start to see the signs of, “You know what, he’s going to give me a raise. I got this. It’s going to happen.” Let it happen. Trust the process. I’ve seen this firsthand. When I’m selling or pitching, I know when I’ve got them. I can tell you the moment when I’m in front of a hundred people. We call it under the ether in the pitching world when you have the crowd under the ether.

When I was really early back in England, I used to sell this two-foot extension handle to the Wash-Matic so you could reach on the roof of your car. And when I used to sell it I used to hold it up in the air as if I was showing it to them, and then I’d move it around to the left and I’d move it to the right, and I could watch the whole audience’s head, everyone would follow like a metronome. And I’d put it down to the ground, they would all put it down to the ground, and I used to say, I tell people, “You watch what happens when I do this.”

You’ve got them under a spell because you intrigued them, you entertained them, in a way you got them interested, you entertained them, and now it’s time to persuade them. In that moment, when you see the boss’ arms unfold, he might lean and go, “ All right. I really like what you’re talking about here. Let’s talk about this a little bit more.” And you’ll find that the barriers and the walls just literally start crumbling down in a situation, in asking for a raise, he might give you a raise right there and then. He might shake your hand and go, “You know what, I’ll get back to you in 24 hours with my answer.”

And that’s when it’s time to finish with confidence, “You know what, Mr. Boss, thanks very much for your time. I really appreciate it. I just want to tell you I love working here. You can count on me. I’m a team player,” and do the moonwalk out of the room backwards. Don’t turn your back on the boss, okay? You walk out of the room backwards. You don’t have to walk out bowing throwing roses down. Finish with confidence, eye contact, shake hands, walk out of the room, shut the door, say hi to the assistant. Finish with confidence.

And I run through this in the book, and I really feel that in asking for a raise, getting a job, you could’ve gone up to a beautiful stranger at a place, a public place, you’re like, “You know what, I really find that person attractive.” All these little principles can be used to get an upgrade in the airline to get in the First Class, to get an exit row, to get the last room at a hotel, to get a loan. Most people fumble through all those interactions and they wonder why they don’t get what they want. And I’m not saying you have to pitch all the time because it’d be exhausting, but it sure helps if you can do it, and it’s helped me a lot. So, that’s the long and short of it, really.

And I tried to put it all in the book, and I really wanted the book to be of value to people who are not in sales. Obviously, I think it is pitching. I use it to sell a product but if I can help one person get a raise, meet an attractive stranger, get the job of their dreams, get into college, get funded, sell a movie script. The pitching, you think about they’re always pitching movie ideas and pitching TV shows. Some people are really, really good at it, and it’s a great skill to have.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. Thank you. Well, then, so now, tell me, is there anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Anthony Sullivan
When I first started this career, I think, I thought this is just one lucky pitch on how to sell a car wash. And what I did, I took these principles and I applied them into different products. And I’ve been doing this for 25 years now and got a multimillion dollar facility down there in Florida, and people come from publicly-traded companies, come to us for our expertise in this. So, I know it works.

It works for a Nutrisystem when we’re selling weight loss. It works when I’m selling OxiClean. It worked today when I was working on my new mop. I have met some of the most amazing people in my life and got to do some amazing things just because I pitch them. And I’m working on a couple of things right now, and I’m going to pitch the hell out of people. That’s what I do, so, yeah, it’s fun to talk about it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Cool. Thank you. Well, now, can you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Anthony Sullivan
I love the whole quote, “It’s not the critic who counts,” I’m trying to think of the whole. It’d Teddy Roosevelt, right? That’s one of my favorites. “It’s not the critic that counts. The credit belongs to the man who’s actually in the arena, whose face is marked by dust and sweat and blood, who errs, who strives valiantly, who comes up short.” I think I’m butchering the quote. It’s one of my favorites. I just feel you’ve got to keep going.

And one of my other favorite quotes is Winston Churchill, “When you’re going through hell, keep going.” There’s been a couple times in my career when I wanted to quit. One thing, perseverance, just keep going. Stay in the saddle. I don’t know if you watched the movie, the documentary, the HBO documentary The Defiant Ones. Have you seen it?

Pete Mockaitis
No.

Anthony Sullivan
Oh, it’s fantastic. It’s about Jimmy Iovine and Dr. Dre, and at the end of the documentary they interview a lot of very famous, successful artists, musical artists. And there’s a little two-minute clip at the end of it, and they all say the same thing, “Keep going. Stay in the saddle.” And I would say that to anyone out there, it’s like, “Do not let them grind you down.”

Winston Churchill, “When you’re going through hell, keep going.” You cannot quit. And all the successful people who I had the good fortune to meet, Joy Mangano who is a good friend of mine, CEO of HSN who just went to work for Weight Watchers, Mindy Grossman is a good friend. Everyone who’s had that trials and tribulations and difficulties.

I just met Lance Armstrong last weekend. I don’t know if there’s a lot of people, detractors of Lance. I happen to be a fan of Lance. And there’s a guy who, “Pull yourself up off the ground no matter what, and move forward.” You’ve got to move forward. And too many people, I think, give up because it’s difficult, it is hard. It is difficult successful and you do have so many failures along the way, but stay in the saddle.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, great. Thank you. And how about a favorite book?

Anthony Sullivan
You know what’s funny? I was thinking about this the other day, the book that I picked up that I could not put down, and it’s like you’re not going to think of like Aristotle or anything, or Marcus Aurelius. It was Andy Weir’s book The Martian. You read it?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, the one the movie is based on?

Anthony Sullivan
You saw the movie? I picked that book up. I must’ve bought 20 copies of that book and sent it to people, and gave it to people. I was just completely immersed in that book. When the movie came out, I was like a geek. I was sitting in line to watch it, first person. And I watched it twice. It just captivated me, that book.

I also I think I’ve read every self-help book known to man. In my 20s I was like craving. The shortcut, I was looking for the silver bullet – The 7 Habit of Highly Effective People, The Power of Positive Thinking, and I think a lot of those books rubbed off on me, and I start reading them after a while because they all sort of said the same thing. These guys were all talking about the same stuff.

I like Malcolm Gladwell’s book, so I think Malcolm is super talented. I’m in the middle of reading George Hincapie’s biography right now, so that’s really what I’m reading today. I do it like a chapter a day. But I’m not a massive reader, but that’s my book comment for that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. Thank you. And how about a favorite habit, a personal practice of yours that helps you be awesome?

Anthony Sullivan
I love to exercise. I’m an exercising fiend, and as I get older I’ve discovered that you’ve got to keep moving. And I do everything I can to at least get an hour and 30 minutes – and it’s probably excessive – a day in the pool, on the bike, or running. I kind of cut back on my running, and I’m actually entering a triathlon called Island House Triathlon in two weeks, and I’m about to hop on my trainer. But if I’m not working or pitching, I’m normally on my bike or in the pool.

Pete Mockaitis
Now when you say when you get older, you have to keep moving. I’m curious, what happens if you don’t? What makes it a necessity?

Anthony Sullivan
I’m 48 and I’ve discovered there’s three things that you kind of need to do to have a great physical, mental, intellectual, spiritual life. And one is, eat right, it’s really simple. People are, “What do I got to do? What do I got to do?” Eat quality food whenever you can. And I know you’re going to have a cheeseburger every now and then. If there’s an opportunity to eat quality food, there’s no substitute for it.

Exercise and to find something that you love to do and do it regularly, and get plenty of rest. Sleep. Sleep is underrated. Get your eight hours. You need eight hours, go to bed early. Nothing good happens after midnight. And I’m really trying to practice those three things, and I also try and surround myself with super positive people. I really believe that if you look for happiness, you’ll find it. If you look for drama, it will come to you. So, I try and make a conscious effort to search out the great things in life each and every day.

When I wake up, I took a look, it’s 70 something degrees in Florida today. It’s absolutely beautiful. So, I try and surround myself with great people and have a great community. And I love my little girl. I got a little six-year old girl who’s birthday is this weekend who lights me up, so I’m super excited to take her for a birthday party this weekend.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, great. And, Sully, if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Anthony Sullivan
AnthonySullivan.com my website. I’m super accessible. You can reach me on Instagram, SullyonTV, S-U-L-L-Y onTV. If you want a little funny video or a shoutout, just reach me on Instagram. I’m happy to do it. And you can reach me on Facebook on AnthonySullivan, and Twitter @sullyontv, that’s S-U-L-L-Y on TV. Yeah, I’m super accessible. I try to be as accessible as I can to inventors, to entrepreneurs, to students, to anyone who kind of wants a little advice. I’d love to get back and be of value.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, beautiful. Thank you. And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Anthony Sullivan
You know, I think it is this era we’re living in, there’s never been a better time to be in business with the platforms that are available whether it’s Facebook, Instagram, Kickstarter.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Excellent. Thank you. Well, Sully, this has been a real treat. I wish you lots of luck with your upcoming mop and book and all you’re up to.

Anthony Sullivan
Thanks. I hope your listeners will enjoy it. I really do. So, good stuff. Thanks for having me as a guest. And anything you need, just give me a holler and let me know.

Nov 13

229: How to Wow with Powerful Words and Presence with Frances Cole Jones

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Frances Cole Jones says: "Physicality and tonality have everything to do with how your message is received."

Communications consultant Frances Cole Jones shares her best strategies to address her clients’ most pressing questions.

You’ll Learn:

  1. How to tell if you’re a boring speaker…and what do about it.
  2. The key word that instantly makes your message more engaging
  3. Another power word that increases listener buy-in from 60 to 94%

About Frances

Prior to founding Cole Media Management Frances worked first as a nursery school teacher and then as an editor of commercial nonfiction in NYC. Being a teacher helped hone her negotiating skills (If you can handle 12 toddlers you can handle any CEO). Her experience helping authors find their voices is something she uses with all her clients to ensure they sound like themselves – themselves on their best day.

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