This Podcast Will Help You Flourish At Work

Each week, I grill thought-leaders and results-getters to discover specific, actionable insights that boost work performance.

Jan 26
0

1123: How to Move Past Setbacks through the Next Play Mindset with Alan Stein, Jr.

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Alan Stein, Jr. shares how elite performers bounce back and how you can do the same.

You’ll Learn

  1. How to take back control over your emotions and actions
  2. How to practice self-compassion without lowering your standards
  3. How to anticipate obstacles without becoming paranoid

About Alan 

Alan Stein, Jr. is an experienced keynote speaker and author. At his core, he’s a performance coach with a passion for helping business leaders change behaviors. He spent 15+ years working with the highest performing basketball players on the planet (including NBA superstars Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, and Kobe Bryant). Through his customized programs, he transfers his unique expertise to maximize both individual and organizational performance. 

Alan is a dynamic storyteller who delivers practical, actionable lessons that can be implemented immediately. He teaches proven principles on how to utilize the same approaches in business that elite athletes use to perform at a world-class level.

Resources Mentioned

Thank you, Sponsors!

  • Monarch.com. Get 50% off your first year on with the code AWESOME.
  • Vanguard. Give your clients consistent results year in and year out with vanguard.com/AUDIO

Alan Stein Jr. Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Alan, welcome back!

Alan Stein, Jr.
So great to be with you, my friend.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to be chatting. You’ve got some goodies for us in your book, Next Play. And I understand that this idea came from a book to you long, long ago. Tell us about that.

Alan Stein, Jr.
Yeah. In the year 2000, I remember it vividly, I had just graduated from college and I read Coach K’s first book, Coach K, the Hall of Fame, legendary, iconic former men’s basketball coach at Duke University. He was the one that actually coined the term “next play.” Although, I think even with his admission, this concept of focusing on the present moment is rooted in stoicism, which has been around for, obviously, thousands of years, but Coach K is the first that I had ever heard coined the actual term “next play.”

And Next Play, if I was going to summarize, it would be a framework for stop worrying about what just happened and learn to focus on what’s right in front of you. Stop worrying about what you wished happened and focus on the reality of what actually happened, and to stop worrying about what was and focus on what is.

And he really designed it as a way for his players to not worry about the missed shot or the turnover or the referee’s missed call, but to dial into the exact next play of the game and let go of the previous one. And what I find interesting is when I read that book in 2000, I, conceptually, understood the concept of next play. I mean, it’s pretty straightforward and logically it made sense to me.

But, truthfully, Pete, I didn’t have the emotional maturity at the time to actually integrate it into my life. At that time in my life, I still allowed myself to get emotionally hijacked by some of the most trivial annoyances and inconveniences that we all experience in life. I would find something to the akin of the Wi-Fi cutting out or a barista messing up my order. And that put me in kind of a downward spiral, in a bad mood, you know, for sometimes hours.

So, it wasn’t until maybe 10 years after reading the book that I was able to actually start adopting it and implementing it in my life and really saw the power of how focusing on the next play is such a game changer.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s pretty juicy, Alan. So, I hear you that, yes, this is an idea that, Alan, makes good sense. Okay. Well, we’ll all nod our heads and say that sounds like a wise, proper prudent thing to do. And yet, actually executing it took some time for you to pull off. So, tell me, were there any groundbreaking insights, distinctions, nuances, breakthroughs that helped you actually put it into practice?

Alan Stein, Jr.
Well, what really put it into practice was, 10 years after reading it for the first time, I started working at a high school here in the Washington, DC area, which is where I live, DeMatha Catholic High School, which is a really renowned school for high school basketball, one of the top programs in the country. And their coach at the time was a gentleman named Mike Jones.

And Coach Jones actually put “next play” into practice with everything we did at DeMatha. I mean, he did it with the players. He did it with the coaches. He talked about it on the court. He talked about it off the court. He talked about it with the small things. He talked about it with the big things. I mean, it was really woven into the fabric of the DeMatha basketball culture that we always focus on the “next play.”

And he even had this hand gesture, almost as if he was flipping a page or flipping the script and say, “All right, we’re on to the next play. That play is over. We’re on to the next one.” And it was, I guess, through pure immersion of watching him implement it every single day with our program that I started to implement it in my life.

And it took a little bit of time. It’s one of these things that it’s really hard to just change the snap of a finger, but as I started to implement it in my life and as I witnessed the DeMatha program utilizing it, again, I could kind of see the power and the reframing tool. And then like anything else, just the pure repetition, the more I started to use it, the better I got at actually implementing it.

And here, you know, 26 years after reading about it for the first time, I’m slowly getting a pretty good grip on my ability to move to the next play. And with most of the things that I preach and teach, both on stage and on page, I’m not coming from a place of mastery. I won’t sit here and look at the camera and tell you that I always immediately move to the next play.

But what I will say is I do so more frequently and more often than I have at any other previous time in my life. And I’m able to do it in both the short term and the micro, and I’m able to zoom out and do it in the macro with the bigger transitions that we experience in life. And as I said, it’s just been so profound for me personally.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s intriguing. And this reminds me of a recent guest we had, Shirzad Chamine, who used to run CTI, the Coaching Training Institute, and he’s got a great program called Positive Intelligence. And he makes the point a few times, which seems striking, that he says to linger in a negative emotion for more than one second is sort of unnecessary, problematic, kind of undue suffering that limits our effectiveness, which is just striking, one second. Wow, that’s quick.

But that’s a kind of a similar notion, in terms of rather than a barista messes up your order, you go into an emotional spiral of yuckiness for hours to just say, “Okay, that happened and that was a bummer. Maybe, what can I learn from it? What’s my takeaway? What’s my action? What’s my response?” And, it’s sort of, you know, rock and roll, move on.

I’d say it does seem easier said than done at times. And I actually really liked what you had to say about the physical gesture of flipping a page because I’ve felt that in a couple of my emotional state worlds of gestures, like, “Oh, I’m grounding my feet firmly on the floor. I’m feeling my toes. Okay. All right. I’m sort of cleared up.”

Or, let’s say someone says, “Let’s take a step back,” I’ll actually physically move my whole shoulders and neck back, it’s like, “Yeah, you’re right. I was looking way close at this thing, and I’m going to take a bigger picture perspective,” and that gesture actually is sort of associated and attached with that. Or, I think of sometimes, like, literally shaking it off, like a dog shaking water all off of his body is beneficial.

So, I think some of this physical stuff, for me, is a handy tip to actually executing this. I’d love your thoughts on that and more tips and tactics for actually pulling it off.

Alan Stein, Jr.
The physical and the psychological are intertwined. It’s hard to compartmentalize and separate the two. Our thoughts drive our emotions and our emotions drive how we feel, and those feelings actually resonate and show up in our bodies. And I actually use the same one you just mentioned about feeling my toes and keeping my feet grounded on the floor, as well as the one that I just gestured, which is the next play.

So, I think having any type of physical anchor to connect to these mantras and frameworks is a very helpful reinforcement tool, in general. And you said something else there, really the heart of next play is how you process and how you choose to respond to everything that’s going on in the world around you. Really, next play is not only a tool to help you focus on the present moment.

It’s a tool to make sure that instead of reacting emotionally or reacting impulsively with some of our most primal feelings, instead, we decide to respond thoughtfully and respond purposefully. And that’s the whole point of next play, is that you don’t control the event or circumstance that just occurred, but you always control your response to it.

And I want to encourage others and invite them on the same journey I’m on, which is to do less impulsive reacting and do more thoughtful responding. And where this is most helpful is when things in our lives don’t go our way, when our preferences aren’t met, when things don’t happen the way that we wish they’d happen.

Well, how do you respond then? How do you behave then? Because I’m a big believer, not only will you improve your performance and productivity when you learn to bounce back quickly when things don’t go your way, but I know from firsthand experience, you’ll actually improve your enjoyment and fulfillment in life when you don’t let those negative thoughts linger and you quickly move on to the next play.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, so can you give us some extra perspectives on how to do less impulsive reacting and more thoughtful responding?

Alan Stein, Jr.
The most important part, and this is the part that I struggled with the most, especially when I told you when I first read about the concept, this is the part that got me stuck, is you have to learn how to slow down. You have to learn how to take a breath, take a beat, take a pause, especially when something doesn’t happen the way that you want.

Because it’s in that space, between the stimulus and now your response, that you get to architect and determine how you are going to respond. When we don’t allow for that space or we don’t take any time, then our primal emotions just take over and we’ll react impulsively.

For me, personally, regardless of what the situation is, I’ve noticed that I still have the same thoughts and visceral feelings and physiological responses to when things don’t go my way. I just don’t allow them to drive the car. I don’t allow them to dictate my behavior.

So, a perfect example, I mean, if I’m sitting in traffic or somebody cuts me off, I still feel the primal urge to get angry, to want to honk my horn, or maybe give someone the finger. I’ve just learned to take a beat between actually doing that, and then thinking, “What would be a more appropriate response? What is a response that is more in alignment with the man that I’m trying to become? What is a response that I would want my kids to see me behave as and be more proud of?”

So, for me, it’s all about taking that split second to gather yourself, compose yourself, have some poise, and then be thoughtful about your next play. I want everyone to be less reactive and more responsive. And if you do so, it will help you in your relationship. It will help you in your output and performance and productivity at work.

And, like I said, it will help you just live a more enjoyable, fulfilling life because now you’re no longer allowing what the world does to dictate your mood and to dictate how you feel and dictate your behavior. We’re much more thoughtful in our responses.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I like that a lot. And so, within that slow down, pause, gap moment, you inserted a question, and I think that was lovely in terms of like, “What would be a response that I would like for my children to do?”

And so, I think that’s huge in terms of reorienting where the pathway your brain is naturally going down, it’s like, “Oh, what an idiot. What’s his problem? Hey, does he not see? Does he not care that there was a danger in lives on the road? This jerk, whatever.” It’s like your brain can just go, one thought leads to the next, to the next, to the next.

But when you can ask that question, you’re really redirecting where that is headed in a powerful way. So, I’d love to hear any of your other favorite questions in that mix there.

Alan Stein, Jr.
Well, just so you know, those things that you just said there, and I know you were saying them a little bit in jest, but those are the exact same things I think when someone cuts me off. But as I said, the most important part about next play, and the most important part about our ability to regulate our emotions is separating how we feel and what we think from how we behave and how we respond.

So, I still think those things and that’s still my primal reaction. I just don’t allow that to overdrive and take over and dictate how I behave. So, that pause is where I can insert that question. And the funny part is, it may feel like you’re pausing for an eternity, but it’s usually only a second or two. It’s a couple of heartbeats. It’s really not that big a deal.

No one is saying that when someone cuts you off in traffic that you have to sit there and meditate for the next 20 minutes to think of a thoughtful response. All I want you to do is to feel your feet on the ground and have the awareness in the moment to say, “Hey, I can’t control that that person cut me off, but I can absolutely control how I respond to it. And I want to start choosing thoughtful responses.”

And I find that when we do that, we also start becoming kinder, more empathetic, compassionate people because, as you also just alluded to in your example, when you take a moment to pause then other questions come to mind, like, “What’s going on in this person’s life? Where are they going where they’re in such a hurry that they’re going to be a danger on the road?”

And then it’s a reminder to me that I don’t know anything going on in anyone else’s life at any given moment, especially a stranger in another vehicle. Maybe they have an emergency they’re trying to get to. Maybe they’ve got a sick child in the back of their car. You don’t know. And once again, reframing that allows more compassion and kindness and empathy to enter my heart, which means I’ll have softer, more appropriate responses.

But back to your original question of some other questions we can ask. I try not to label the questions or thoughts or feelings I have as good or bad, or as right or wrong, because it’s completely subjective and it’s completely contextual. What I try to do is I just ask myself, “Is this helpful? Is this a helpful question to ask?”

And my definition of helpful is whether or not it’s increasing my power or is it giving my power away? So, lots of times when things don’t go my way, my initial visceral reaction is to think, “Well, why is this happening to me? This isn’t fair. This sucks.” And once again, that means now I’m a victim of circumstance and environment.

Instead, since those questions are not very helpful questions, when things don’t go my way, I’ve trained myself to ask more helpful questions, like, “What can I learn from this? What can I gain from this? Even though things didn’t turn out the way I’d hoped, what is the next play that can actually help move me forward? How can I use this to actually learn something or make me better?”

Those are much more helpful, empowering questions and they put me back in the hypothetical driver’s seat because now I’m in control. Like I said at the very beginning, I don’t control events and circumstances. I always control my response, and that’s where our power comes from is in the response.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Alan, this is so good in terms of the, me, me, me focus. I mean, you mentioned sick child, and this brings me back to a story. This, literally, happened to me. I was in Chicago, I think it was after a date, just hanging out, chit chatting in the car. And then we see someone “parking” in what was totally not a parking space.

And so, it’s just kind of like in the middle of things, and we’re like, “What are you doing? That’s not a parking space. Can’t you see there’s no lights? What’s up with this guy?” So, we were like running our mouths about this, and then they very quickly hustled, while picking up a child from the back seat, and then went at a quick pace into the nearby building, which was a children’s clinic, and we were just that oblivious.

And so, I mean, you used that as an example, and it’s not just sort of like an extreme thought exercise, but like, “No, literally, that happened.” And we both felt so ashamed, like, “Oh, geez, we’re terrible people. They genuinely have a sick child at the children’s hospital, and we’re just mocking their parking job. Okay. Well, I hope they’re doing okay.”

Alan Stein, Jr.
Absolutely. Well, I sure appreciate you sharing that and that hopefully has stuck with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah!

Alan Stein, Jr.
I’ll give you two rather recent examples for me. Now, one, you’re privy to and your audience isn’t, and I certainly don’t say this to make anyone feel awkward, but as you know, my mom passed away two weeks ago, and my father was married to her for 52 years. I mean, that was his person. So obviously, he’s going through some hard times right now, trying to adjust to his next new play in life, which is, “How do I exist without the person that’s been my sidekick for 52 years?”

And the reason I say that is, for that first week in particular, I mean, my dad was an equal combination of devastated and overwhelmed. I mean, I can’t imagine what was actually going through his mind. And if he was navigating the world and maybe was driving and didn’t put his blinker on, he was driving a little bit slow, or was taking longer to order something when he got up to the front of a restaurant, I can understand why people behind him would be really impatient.

Like, “Hey, this old guy is in my way. Come on, Gramps, let’s go.” And yet, if they knew that a week prior to that, he had lost his person of 52 years, my guess is they’d be a little more patient. They’d have a little more tolerance and a little more understanding. And the reason I bring that up is we should all navigate the world as if those things are happening.

Another example, on a slightly more positive note, I have twin sons that are turning 16 in March, so they’re doing their driver’s ed right now, and I take them practice driving. And when I take them to practice driving, I mean, they’re brand-new drivers. They drive a little slow. They’re a little awkward with the blinker. Sometimes they can’t remember who has the right-of-way.

And we were at an intersection the other day and cars behind us were honking because my son should have taken the left but he was so nervous because there was another car coming. And same thing, I have a feeling, if the car behind us honking knew that there was an almost 16-year-old learning to drive for the first time, they’d be more patient, they’d be more tolerant, and they’d have a little bit more empathy.

And I use both of those as examples because I’m also the person that gets frustrated when there’s an old person in my way or a young person that doesn’t know how to drive. And it’s really helped me soften my responses because I just picture my dad or I picture my sons when I’m in something that is making me feel impatient, and just a reminder that most people are doing the best they can with the tools they have. And as human beings, we should be compassionate to that.

And I have to remind myself that, in that moment, I might be the one that’s being frustrated, but there’s other moments where I’m the one causing someone else’s frustration because we’re all fallible as human beings and sometimes we’re not at our best selves. So, the more patient and tolerant and accepting we can be, I just think we’ll live more fulfilling lives and we’ll create stronger and forge more connected relationships.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I like that so much in terms of, like, living as though that were the case, which reminds me of, which we’ll link to the show notes, there’s a nine-minute YouTube video, which took audio from a David Foster Wallace commencement speech, “This Is Water,” discussing this very concept that we’re so wrapped up in our stuff that we don’t stop, pause, think about the other context there. And sometimes it really is true. And even if it’s not, living that way is handy.

But while we’re talking about generosity or kindness, your chapter three is entitled, “Tell Yourself How Great You Are.” Why is that useful, Alan?

Alan Stein, Jr.
Well, I think the most important conversations we ever have in our lives are the ones we have with ourselves. It’s the little voice in our head. And if anyone watching or listening right now is thinking, “I don’t have a little voice in my head,” well, who do you think just said that to you? Like, we all have the inner voice and the inner monologue.

And I really want to encourage folks, while we’re on this kick of compassion and tolerance and empathy, to learn how to start talking to ourselves in a more kind and compassionate way. I do a lot of work with really high performers.

And it’s been my first-hand experience, as well as the experience of working with these folks, that many times, high performers can be very critical of themselves, can be very judgmental of themselves.

And when they don’t perform to the level that they believe they’re capable of, they actually start to beat themselves up, figuratively speaking, of course. And I want folks to start learning to talk to themselves with the same compassion and kindness that you would talk to a loved one, or that you would talk to a child, or that you would really talk to anyone else.

You and I are friends, Pete. If you called me up after a really hard day, things didn’t go well, you had a couple of podcast interviews, and you had some tech issues, and one of the guests didn’t show up the way that you had hoped, and it was just kind of a tough day for you, as your friend, the last thing I would do in that moment is to be critical of you, is to make certain assumptions and be judgmental and beat you up and make you feel worse.

As your friend, I would want to create a safe space where I could just say, “Hey, man, I’m sorry that today didn’t go well. I know what that feels like. It doesn’t feel good, but just know, man, I believe in you and I know how good your show is, and how good of an interviewer you are. And maybe today didn’t quite live up to your standard, but I know you’ll be better next time because I believe in you.”

Like, that would be the general sentiment in which I would approach you as a friend. So why wouldn’t I talk to myself with that same type of kindness when I fall short? And just to be clear, I believe in holding myself and those I care about to really, really high standards.

None of this is about letting someone off the hook for low performance or for a casual attitude, but it’s about giving ourselves some grace whenever we fall short of expectation because we have to remember we are human beings, we are fallible, we are flawed, and nobody goes through life making all straight A’s. Like, occasionally, we’re going to mess up.

And when we mess up, how we talk to ourselves will dictate our next play. And that next play will dictate how we bounce back and what future performance will look like.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, I’d also love your thoughts in chapter 28, you’ve got “Anticipate Obstacles.” And I’m thinking it’s an interesting game in terms of, thinking about what can go wrong can be helpful in terms of preparation, but it could also be not so helpful in terms of, “Ahh, let’s forget it, it’s too much. I don’t want to deal with all that, or it’s probably never going to work out.” So how do you think about running your brain with this tension?

Alan Stein, Jr.
I don’t ever want folks to be paranoid, but I always want them to be prepared. And there is a difference between the two, obviously. And where I first started thinking this concept was, when I was in the basketball training space and working with elite-level players, I found it kind of comical how many times a player would drive to the basket and get fouled, and that they would get so upset and been out of shape over the defense fouling them.

And I would remind them, like, “Hey, that’s the defense’s job. You do realize the guys in the other color jerseys are trying to keep you from scoring. And when they do that, occasionally, they’re going to hit your arm or foul you. So instead of being surprised that a defender fouls you, why don’t you just assume they’re going to foul you when you go to the basket?”

“Kind of like, you know, hopefully you never have to hear a pilot say this, but if they would say, ‘Brace for impact,’ it’s the same thing like brace for contact when you’re driving to the basket and expect that somebody’s going to hit you. And if they don’t be very pleasantly surprised that you can get to the basket uninterrupted, but don’t be surprised by the contact.”

And for me, I use it in my life in several different ways. As a professional keynote speaker, I have contingency plans for a whole handful of things that potentially could happen during my talk. It could be something like someone in the front row keeps yelling things out, or one of the waiters drops a glass and it shatters in the middle of my talk, the AV goes out and I can’t use the PowerPoint anymore, the microphone doesn’t work.

Like, things that I’m not saying there’s a high likelihood they’ll happen, but there’s a decent chance they’ll happen, and I don’t want to be caught off guard when those things do occur. So, I try to proactively have contingency plans for if they happen, here’s how I’ll handle it.

And of course, if something tangential happens, so maybe they don’t drop a glass but something else is disturbing, maybe somebody’s phone goes off, then I feel more at ease because I’ve prepared for these different scenarios and I’ve imagined them in my mind before they’ve occurred, so when they actually happen in real life, it’s a more seamless transition to move to that next play.

Now I’m not on stage going, “Oh, gosh, I sure hope no one’s phone rings,” “Oh, man, I sure hope no one drops a glass,” I’m not even registering that, I’m not even thinking about it, but if that happens, I will be ready.

And that’s all that I encourage folks to do is to be proactive and giving some thought to some obstacles that may come your way, personally or professionally, and then just have an idea of what your next play will be if they do occur.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s a good feeling, just that confidence that comes from that level of preparation. One of my favorite stunts to pull when I was doing more keynote speeches was, if you’d hear a little bit of an extra hiss in terms of the microphone situation, I just loved saying to the client and the AV tech people, it’s like, “I think there’s a mismatch between the impedance of the source and the line here. I have a microphone impedance matching transformer with me in my bag, which will probably fix that hiss.” They’re like, “Oh, my gosh, we’re dealing with a pro.”

Alan Stein, Jr.
Absolutely. Love that. We can never be too proactive in thinking about those things. And the other way that we use this, the proactivity portion is, most people apply the next play in the moment. As I said, it’s the basketball player who turns the ball over and misses the shot, next play. It’s when the Wi-Fi cuts out, or the barista messes up your order, or somebody cuts you off in traffic, next play.

But where I also want folks to use it is when you zoom back out and you think of the big transitions in life that most of us will go through, and you start proactively thinking, “How am I going to handle this next play when circumstances change?” I’ll use the same two examples from before.

So, my mother passed recently, my dad is not in the best of health, and I say that with a heavy heart. I don’t know how much more time I have with him, hopefully, plenty of more years, but we know that that’s not guaranteed.

But, at some point in the near future, I’m going to go through a transition of having spent the majority of my life with two very engaged, active, loving parents, to then stepping into living my life in a next play when both of my parents are deceased. And who am I going to be and what am I going to do when I step into that new version?

On the same other side, I mentioned I’ve got twin boys that are almost 16. I also have a daughter that’s almost 14. In the blink of an eye, my three kids will graduate from high school and move on to whatever they choose to do post high school. And I’ll be affectionately known as an empty nester. Well, what is my next play going to be when I no longer identify with having children at home? Like, who am I going to be and what am I going to be in that next play?

And there are so many next plays that many of us go through, whether it’s marriage or divorce, or when you’re running your business. Well, what if you get sued? What if you go bankrupt? What if you have to make layoffs? Conversely, what if your business starts growing at an exponential rate and you have to hire a whole bunch of more people right away? How do you maintain your culture when you’re trying to scale very quickly?

Like, all of these could be potential next plays, and I don’t want them to monopolize or paralyze us as we think about them, but I do want us to give some thought to proactively deciding, “How am I going to deal with these circumstances changing if and when they do because there’s a very good likelihood they will?” And that’s where the proactivity and the preparedness comes into play.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. And whenever we’re chatting, I’d love to hear some tales of you and super pro famous athletes, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, etc. Any memorable stories, moments, experiences from some of the greats that help illustrate some of this stuff?

Alan Stein, Jr.
Sure. Well, I mean, the most memorable one, it’s usually the opening story I give in my keynotes, was meeting Kobe Bryant for the first time in 2007.

And for context, for any of your viewers or listeners that don’t follow basketball as closely as I do, most would agree that in 2007, Kobe was the best player on the planet. And I remember as a young coach at that time watching one of his early morning private workouts and being really surprised at how basic the drills were. He was drilling down on fundamentals that I had done with middle school age players.

Now he was doing them with an unparalleled level of focus and detail and precision and effort, but the actual drills he was doing were very basic. And when I asked him later that day at camp, why a player at his level, the best player in the world would focus on doing such basic drills, he said something that, fundamentally, changed my life forever. He said, “Why do you think I’m the best player in the world? Because I never get bored with the basics.”

That teaching moment, I mean, literally, the hairs on my neck still stand up when I tell that story and it’s been almost 20 years, that the best of the best never get bored with the basics. They have a strong respect and appreciation for the fundamentals, and they try to simplify success, like the sign above my head, that they try to untether from the unnecessarily complex and they just drill down on mastery of the basics.

And that’s really been the foundation to everything I believe and everything I preach and teach on page and on stage is working towards mastery of the basics, and Next Play is a pillar, is an offshoot of that, is a component of, “What is a basic framework we can use to be more thoughtful in our responses and stay dialed into the present moment?” And that’s what it is for me. It’s this whole concept of next play.

And, you know, next play, I mean, I’ve seen, certainly, athletes use it with tremendous results, but I’m now seeing folks in the business world be able to use it as well with equally great success. And I can tell you now, any organization that can develop a next play mentality with their team is going to be at a massive advantage over their competition.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Alan, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Alan Stein, Jr.
No, man, this has been fun. I always love connecting with you. You always spur such great thoughts and ask such great questions, man.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. Well, now can we hear about a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Alan Stein, Jr.
Funny enough, I was actually watching, like, a reality show on Netflix about real estate. It was called “Owning Manhattan” with Ryan Serhant. And one of the members of his team said, “If you’re not changing it, you’re choosing it.” So that’s a relatively new quote and it just hit me really hard when I heard it.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Alan Stein, Jr.
Well, one that I found while doing this book that I thought was really interesting was that the average visceral emotion that we feel only lasts about 90 seconds. If you just let it run through you, and if you just accept it, you’re only going to be frustrated, irritated, angry, upset for about 90 seconds, if you just take that breath and just say, “Hey, I’m feeling frustrated right now.”

The problem most people have is they keep throwing logs on the fire and coal on the fire, and they keep starting that stopwatch over because of the self-narrative and the additional internal dialogue they have when that happens.

So, the barista messes up your order and you feel frustrated, and then you start saying things to yourself like, “Man, this is ridiculous. This guy never pays attention. He’s always messing up my order.” Well, the clock just started over again. “Man, this isn’t fair. I can’t believe this is happening to me. I’m late for a meeting, and now I got to wait for another coffee to be made,” clock starts over again.

And that’s why some people can experience someone cutting them off in traffic in the morning, or the Starbucks barista messing up your order, and they stay in that spiral for hours because they keep starting the clock over through the unhelpful self-narrative.

So, to me, it’s so important just to say, “Hey, I’m a little frustrated that they messed up my order at Starbucks. I’m allowed to be frustrated. That’s okay. But I’m not going to allow it to dictate how I behave or how I show up. And I’m certainly not going to be rude to the barista. These things happen.” And by the time I finished that sentence, it’s been about 90 seconds and I just move on with my day.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And could you share a favorite book?

Alan Stein, Jr.
One of the go-to resources, well, I’ll give two. One is the book I mentioned at the very beginning of this called Leading with the Heart, which is Coach K’s first book, where I heard about next play for the first time.

Another book that I recommend very highly is by my good friend, Phil Jones, a fellow speaker. And he wrote a book called Exactly What to Say. And it’s a shorter book, it’s almost more of a handbook and a guide than it is an actual book, but, really, Phil’s whole tagline is, “When you change your words, you change your world.”

And he talks about the power of language and then how certain phrases and statements and questions we can ask, can actually help us get a better response from the people we’re trying to connect with. So, anyone that’s in a leadership position or in a sales position, highly recommend Leading with the Heart by Coach K, and Exactly What to Say by Phil Jones.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Alan Stein, Jr.
I’m a real stickler for my morning routines. My morning routine, how I spend the first 60 minutes after I wake up, really primes me for the rest of the day and has a massive influence on what type of day I’m going to have, so I’m very protective of the first 60 minutes of my day.

And within the first 60 minutes, I do the very best I can to not check email and not check social media. I do check text messages just in case there was an emergency or a fire that needs to be put out. But I try not to check my inbox or check social media.

I try to do something that engages my physical body, whether it’s some light stretching or playing pickup basketball or lifting weights or going for a walk. And then, at the same time, I try to do something that gets me mentally or emotionally engaged as well. So read, watch, or listen to something that’s either educational or inspiring.

And if I can check those three boxes within the first 30 to 40 minutes of waking up, it usually sets a pretty nice foundation for how the rest of the day will go.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Alan Stein, Jr.
They can just go to my website, which is just AlanSteinJr.com. That’s kind of the central hub for everything that we have going on. And you can also find me on social media at @alansteinjr. on Instagram and LinkedIn and all of the major platforms. I take a tremendous amount of pride in being both accessible and responsive.

So, if someone enjoyed this conversation that we’ve had, and I hope that they have, and they want to share something or ask something, just shoot me a DM on Instagram or LinkedIn. I’m very good about getting back.

And if you have any interest in bringing me in to speak to your team or school or organization. You can find all the information on my programs at AlanSteinJr.com. And then, of course, you can grab “Next Play” on Amazon or Audible or wherever you get your books and audio books.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Alan Stein, Jr.
See if you can adopt this next play mentality. See if you can, at the very start, just put an insert, that pause or that breath or that beat, after you feel the visceral emotion to react, and just take a second so that you can be thoughtful in your response.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Alan, thank you.

Alan Stein, Jr.
My pleasure. This was a lot of fun. Thank you, Pete.

Jan 22
0

1122: How to Find the Work You’re Wired to Do with William Vanderbloemen

By | Podcasts | No Comments

William Vanderbloemen discusses how professionals can find both success and satisfaction in their careers.

You’ll Learn

  1. The one habit that puts you ahead of 90% of people
  2. How to learn what you don’t know about yourself
  3. The one skill to work on—regardless of your job

About William 

William Vanderbloemen has been leading the Vanderbloemen Search Group for 15 years, where they are regularly retained to identify the best talent for teams, manage succession planning, and consult on all issues regarding teams. This year, Vanderbloemen will complete their 3,000th executive search.  

Prior to founding Vanderbloemen Search Group, William studied executive search under a mentor with 25+ years of executive search at the highest level. His learning taught him the very best corporate practices, including the search strategies used by the internationally known firm Russell Reynolds. Prior to that, William served as a Senior Pastor at one of the largest Presbyterian Churches in the United States.

Resources Mentioned

Thank you, Sponsors!

  • Monarch.com. Get 50% off your first year on with the code AWESOME.
  • Vanguard. Give your clients consistent results year in and year out with vanguard.com/AUDIO

William Vanderbloemen Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
William, welcome!

William Vanderbloemen
Thanks so much, Pete. Appreciate you having me here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about some of your wisdom. Your book, “Work How You Are Wired,” great title, great messages. I want to kick it off right at the beginning, I’m intrigued, we’ve got right off the bat, chapter one titled, “Almost Everyone Hates Their Job.” What a bummer! Can you tell us, what’s the underlying research data for this assertion?

William Vanderbloemen
If you do a pretty thorough search, and we did, of reputable surveys, of really honest looks at happiness and engagement in the workplace, the resounding conclusion is most Americans hate their job.

And it’s probably also true globally, but most Americans hate their job. Not we’re mildly dissatisfied or we’re a little bit unengaged or when is hump day or that sort of thing. They really don’t like their jobs. And life is just too short to spend the majority of your waking hours doing something you hate.

And to add onto that, most Americans hate their job, most managers say their team is just okay. Now that’s a really messed up world, where you’ve got people that hate doing what they do and managers thinking on your best day you’re okay. Is it possible to find work that you enjoy and are good at?

That’s like the alchemy we were trying to study from an empirical, data-driven method to figure out, “Who is happy at their work and good at it? And how do we distill that into a pathway for readers to be able to find work they’re happy with?”

We wrote a book on how to behave at work and get promoted. It did wildly well. It’s called, Be The Unicorn. It’s like, “Wow, if I just do all this, I’ll get promoted,” and it works. However, if you’re getting promoted within a workplace that you don’t enjoy, that’s really not the whole ball game, you know, “What does it profit a man if they gain the whole world, but lose their soul?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Okay. Well, so now I’m intrigued by the almost part. So I know that we’ve heard about the Gallup Engagement Study many a time on the podcast. It’s a favorite research piece to cite. So with that and other sources, are we looking, William, at 2%, 6%? How many people are digging their job and flourishing in it?

William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, not many. Not many that I can find. If you look at who’s disengaged, you’re going to find a widespread of this percent, that percent, but the majority is more than half. Some will go as high as three-fourths. So I guess you could deduce that less than half of people are really enjoying their job. And then you get to, “And are they any good at it?” It’s pretty small.

I run an executive search firm, which means companies hire us to find their best talent. And we’ve been doing it a long time. We would do a pretty high volume of that, so we have lots of data at our fingertips. And we went and found the people that are the absolute best at their job and happy with it, that we know, and I mean, like 30,000 of them.

And we tried to draw some common denominators about, “What work did they choose based on what kind of personality they have? And is there a way to distill that so that somebody reading could pick up a book like that, and say, ‘I need to find work that’s going to be fulfilling and make me feel good and that I’ll be good at’?” Because it doesn’t have to be that way.

And, thank goodness, we’re no longer in a day where you get one job out of high school, you stay with the company 55 years, you get some form of watch at the end, and, “Yay! Yay!” No, there’s a lot of career mobility. If you’re not happy, it doesn’t have to stay that way.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. Well, could you give us perhaps the overview mindset shift or perspective that we should take on as we’re exploring these kinds of questions?

William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, you need to get to know yourself. That’s it. Get to know yourself. Get to know what you’re good at and what you’re not. Get to know what you like, what you don’t. Get to know what gives you energy, what doesn’t. Know yourself. And that sounds so simple, but to go way back in the wayback machine, I don’t use my philosophy degree for a lot, but Socrates, maybe the founder of Western thought, his top teaching was, “Know thyself.”

And when we studied the 30,000, we called them unicorns because they just stand out in the crowd. They’re this kind of people. Pete, you ever get in an elevator and ride for 30 seconds with somebody on the elevator, and by the end of elevator ride, you’re like, “I want to know more about them. I want to sign up for their email list. I want to be a part of their…”?

Or, you run into them at a cocktail party, there’s something different about their countenance, right, and you want to engage. Those are what we call unicorns, and it bleeds over into work. They behave a certain way. They choose a certain type of work based on their knowledge of themselves. And what we found, when we studied these unicorns, is they have about 12 habits they follow that are not hard to follow, but very few people follow them. And one of them is the practice of self-awareness.

Now, this is a little long, so stay with me just for a minute. But we surveyed the 30,000 unicorns we had, and we said, “Force-rank these 12 habits, what are you really good at and what are you not?” And the “What are you really good at?” was different all across the board because some people like speed, some people like studying methodically, people are wired differently.

But the one common denominator, when they’re force-ranked what they’re good at, the unicorns, the best of the best said that their worst habit of the 12 is self-awareness. Like, across the board, they’re all like, “I got to work on that.” Now, hold that thought.

We also surveyed a quarter million people, just Gen pop, you and me, everybody out there. And when it came to self-awareness, the average people, like me, 93% of us said we were above average in self-awareness.

Pete Mockaitis
Ninety-three percent?

William Vanderbloemen
Now I’m not a math major, but there’s not a group on the planet where 93% is above average. Average is 50% and half’s above and half’s below.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s like Lake Wobegon going on over here.

William Vanderbloemen
Right, people think they’re exactly, exactly. That’s exactly what it is. And the best way I can describe it is, do you remember the first time you heard your voice recorded?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

William Vanderbloemen
Oh, it was terrible for me. I don’t know, how was it for you?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, well, it was not pleasant. It was a voicemail situation, and that’s a whole other thing.

William Vanderbloemen
Oh, and you heard, and you’re like, “That’s not me.”

Pete Mockaitis
It was disappointing, like, “Oh, really?”

William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, I mean, I was like, “Who’s this guy talking, and why is his voice so bad?” And it was me. It’s that disconnect. People are not willing to take objective, hard looks in the mirror and see what they’re good at. If you really want to find work that you’re wired to do, you need to spend some time getting to know yourself on a, “How am I wired?” basis.

And the good news is we’re living in an age where you can find that stuff out quicker than ever, whether you use an Enneagram, or a DISC inventory, or Myers-Briggs, or what have you. You can figure out how you’re wired easier than any generation in human history. And if you’ll start there, get to know yourself, “What do you enjoy? What are you good at? What drains energy from you?” if you start to get to know yourself, you’ll be able to find work that you’re wired to do.

In the book, we took the 12 habits that unicorns practice, which is in the Be the Unicorn book, and we said, “This sounds like 12 lanes of work.” And, sure enough, it is. So, like, one of the habits is speed, “Do you get back to people quickly? Do you do it intentionally? Are you driven to go faster and faster?”

There are types of work that are really good at that – sales, marketing, executive assistant. That is speed driven. Neurosurgery is not, right? So you can have good, talented, smart people with different wirings that don’t need to be in certain kinds of jobs.

I sat with a friend of mine who actually is a neurosurgeon, and we met years and years ago. It was the first time I’d met with him. We went to a nice restaurant he picked for lunch. And let’s just call him Pete to save the identity, okay?

So, Pete sits down next to me, and the table gets set. I looked at my watch, he spent three solid minutes, arranging his forks and knives and silver just perfectly. And I just kept watching and watching. And, finally, he looked up and saw me watching him, and he kind of smiled, and I said, “Pete, have you ever considered studying OCD?”

And he kind of laughed and he looked at me, and he said, “William, here’s the thing. You want your neurosurgeon to be OCD.” And I was like, “You’re right.” So he understands himself. He’s in a field of work that requires that. He’s in one of those 12 lanes.

And the book is basically a 101 guide to saying, “How do I figure out myself enough to know which of these 12 lanes I’m most naturally wired for? And what are the jobs that really show up in those 12 lanes?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, William, to rewind a smidge, that notion of self-awareness, it’s fascinating. We had Dr. Tasha Eurich on the show, and that’s one of her big pieces, is you’re not as self-aware as you think. And that is the case for, I guess, 93% of those folks there.

And it’s intriguing that the unicorns think their self-awareness is worst. The rest think their self-awareness is great. And so, it kind of speaks to that notion of the true master recognizes that there is much more to learn in a given domain. And it is the sort of amateur or intermediate who thinks, “Oh, yeah, I got all that figured out.”

So, I’m intrigued about that very notion, is that sort of, I’m sure there’s a riddle or a quotable gem about this notion that, “If you think you’ve got it all figured out, you sure don’t. And it pays to have some humility and dig deeper into gaining a greater mastery of that thing.”

William Vanderbloemen
And if you’ll just commit just a little bit of time to it, learning a little bit about yourself, you’ll be ahead of 90% of everybody. It doesn’t take a lot of work.  That’s the good news about these statistics. Just learn a little. It’s like I’m a level two sommelier. And level one, I thought I knew something. Level two, it’s like, I don’t know anything.

But by just getting to level two, where I don’t know anything, if I’m at a dinner party, I know way more than most everybody around the table. It’s the same with self-awareness. We’re so bad at it. If you’ll just get a little bit better, you’ll have a competitive advantage in all of your human relationships and definitely in finding work that you’re wired to do.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so let’s talk about the self-awareness notion in terms of what does good self-awareness look like such that we might have a wake up call, and be like, “Oh, wow, William, I guess I’m not self-aware at all now that you mentioned it”?

William Vanderbloemen
Well, how about we do a little, here’s a fun little exercise. Nearly everyone, I think, listening has probably interviewed for a job where one of the questions is probably the one out of the gate is, “So tell me about yourself.”

It’s a pretty paralyzing question, “Okay, I came home from the hospital. I was born on a Saturday. I came home from the hospital on a Tuesday, I didn’t walk till I was…” I mean, does it need to be that thorough?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, there’s a thousand directions you can take with that one. Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen
It’s so liberating, it’s paralyzing. How’s that? It’s not specific, right? So what if you did this instead? What if you said, “Tell me about yourself,” and I’m interviewing to work for you, Pete, and you’re running some really fast-growing podcast? I mean, Joe Rogan is nervous about you, right? So, like, you’re moving big time up the chart.

Pete Mockaitis
But more because of my ultimate fighting skills, William.

William Vanderbloemen
That’s right. Well said. So, you are interviewing me for a marketing position, and you said, “Tell me about yourself.” Well, this is very careful sentence, “Here’s what I’m learning about myself,” that’s interesting. Just steal that line, use it if you’re listening, “Here’s what I’m learning about myself.”

And that shows I don’t have it all figured out and I’m very aware of it. I am working on it. That’s great. Now what you can’t do is say, “Let me tell you what I’m learning about myself,” and then go into what you’re talking about with your therapist about childhood trauma, and, like, not that, right? That’s certainly something worth learning.

But in a job interview, what if you said, “Here’s what I’m learning about myself, Pete. I’m learning that, you know, on the Myers-Briggs, I’m a very high I. I like to plan the next party. And, you know, if you look at me on the Enneagram, I’m a seven. That’s like the social coordinator, the rush chairman. And what’s really interesting about people that are I’s and 7’s is they love trying new things. Okay, so that’s me.”

“If you look at my last three jobs, and where I’ve listed on my resume, the things I actually accomplished,” which, by the way, is a freebie thrown in there. Don’t talk about objectives in your resume. Talk about things you got done. “If you look at where I got the highest marks in my last three jobs, every single job, it was when the boss asked me to, ‘Go figure something out we’d never done before.’ That gives me energy, right?”

“What doesn’t give me energy is showing up at work and being told, ‘Do the same thing every day and make it a little bit better every day, same routine task and engineer it better.’ Like, I can do it, but I’m going to lose energy. You’re not going to give me a good review. Put me in a place where I’ve never seen it before and I have to. And I know that about me. I’m learning it. I’m a seven. I’m an I. I’m learning these things.”

“Let me tell you why I’m saying all this. I’ve looked at your company, Pete, you’re growing like crazy. It’s not just Joe Rogan. Mel Robbins is talking, too. They’re worried. And I’m guessing you, with all this world of algorithms and AI and marketing changing, you don’t need somebody who has a fixed playbook that’s going to come in and try and run it their way. You need someone who really enjoys the curiosity of trying to figure something out.”

“Someone who says, if you said, ‘Jump out of the plane and build a parachute on the way down,’ I would get excited about that. And I’m guessing that’s what your company’s facing. So what am I learning about myself? There’s a lot more to learn. But the way I’m wired might match the kind of challenges you’re facing with this job. And I’m super excited to dive into that with you today.” That’s a whole different way to answer.

And, by the way, you’ve just won the interview and you’ve prevented them from asking you the question, “Well, what is your greatest weakness?” I hate that question. So, does that help?

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. So, it’s ongoing. We’re learning about ourselves and, in so doing, there’s great stories to be told and matches to be found and options to be ruled out based upon what you’re seeing there. That’s super. So you mentioned the DISC, the Myers-Briggs, the Enneagram, and those are cool. Do you have any other go-to approaches, methodologies, questions that are super impactful in terms of getting meaningful self-awareness upgrades?

William Vanderbloemen
Well, the main thing is do you have friends that will actually tell you the truth? I mean, that’s the ultimate test. And one of the ways you can look for that is, “Do your friends always tell you things you like or not?” My wife, I love her, there’s no one I’d rather spend time with on the planet than her. And I’m not saying that to be like saccharine or anything. It’s true.

And she tells me things I don’t want to hear every day. And it’s usually to pull something out of me, some self-awareness I need to develop. So, do you have friends who actually tell you things you don’t want to hear that you reflect back and say, “You know, they’re right about that”?

And then the second way is to use some of these inventories – DISC, Myers-Briggs, Enneagram. We developed one around these 12 lanes called the Vander Index, which will very quickly tell you, “Here’s my top lane of these 12, and where I probably ought to look first. And here’s my bottom one where I’m probably not going to be happy. And then some things in the middle that maybe are worth a look and maybe not.”

Pete Mockaitis
And I am digging the notion of you need friends to tell you the truth. You’re bringing me back to, in college, I was selected to be the student speaker at the College of Business Commencement ceremony at the University of Illinois, and that was kind of fun and cool and yay. But I played this joke on people, and they said, “Oh, you’re going to be the speaker. What are you going to talk about?”

And so I would do the shtick, and I’d say, “Okay, I got a crazy idea. All right, check it out. So people think graduation rite, it’s like the end? But, no, no, I’m going to flip it on its head and say, ‘No, check it out.’ Actually, it’s the beginning. And that’s why they call it commencement, right?” So that’s like super cheesy, been done way too many times speech.

And so, I like to mess with people by getting super fired up about it, right, just to see what they would do. And you could tell good friends, they’re like, “You’re joking, right?” That’s what a good friend says. And then the not-so-great friends are like, “Oh, interesting.” You know, they just sort of smile, nod, and move along.

So, I love that, is to have the friends and then to, you don’t have to subject them to joke tests. But I think it does pay to, and again, Dr. Tasha Eurich had a technique she called the Dinner of Truth, where you’re actually asking these good friends the key questions because they might not know that that feedback is welcome, needed, desired from you to go there.

William Vanderbloemen
And here’s a little secret, Pete. Maybe you’ve experienced it as well. I’ve had the chance to be around a lot of successful people, way more successful than I am. I’ve also been blessed to see this company grow more than I ever thought it would.

I think most uber successful people will tell you, “The more successful you get in life, the fewer people there are that will tell you the truth.” I have a friend who says, “The first day you’re the CEO is the last day you hear the truth because everybody wants to tell you how wonderful things are.”

My COO, and I hired her, said, “What’s the main reason you’re hiring me?” And I said, “To tell me the truth. Like, that’s all.” And she’s like, “That’s it?” I’m like, “That’s it.” So, as you, I imagine people were taking time to listen to your podcast are progressing in their career, they’re moving up.

Probably a lot of listeners, mid-30s or under, just realize, establish those friendships now before you hit the top of whatever ladder you’re climbing because once you get to the top, it’ll be very hard to find friends that’ll be honest with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, good friends, ask questions, take the Vander Index. Can you give us the rundown? What are these 12 lanes?

William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, sure. They are, we can start with the fast, because it’s my favorite. But, you know, the fast is people who respond and respond quickly and love doing it. Like, I probably ought to be in therapy. If you text me, it really doesn’t matter what time of day it is, I’m probably looking at it.

And I know that’s on the way out and the Brick is the thing everybody’s putting their phone on, all my kids want it, to disconnect from the addicted phone and all. But there is still an art. Business is won by speed of response. And there’s all kinds of research in the book to talk about it. But that’s one.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah, Jay Baer, on the show, talked about this. It could be huge, in sales particularly.

William Vanderbloemen
And it’s not hard. The reality is it’s just not hard, but very few people follow through on it. Very few, but that’s one. If you’re one that’s like, “I just need to get back to them real quick,” if you find yourself constantly answering a text, that might be a sign that you’re one of the fasts.

And rather than run through all of them, I’ll give you just a couple others. The prepared is another one. And it’s almost the opposite of the fast. The prepared is someone who comes to work with everything neat. Like, my wife’s pantry is this way. She is prepared. Everything is in the same place. And if we rent a house for vacation, the pantry gets set up pretty much the same way.

So there are some people like that and those are people that you want in compliance roles, train masters, brain surgeons, pilots. These are people that speed isn’t as important as quality control.

Another habit that I’ll just hit on real briefly is some people have a lane where their work needs to matter more than just what they get to do. Like, I love selling stuff. I always have. I am a salesperson at heart. However, if I were selling something that didn’t leave the world better than I found it, I’m not going to be as energized. We call it purpose driven. Are you driven by something higher than just getting the check?

And some people aren’t, or some people are, but just by little things. Some people are about giant things. If you are purpose driven and you go into a business with zero purpose, you’re going to be very, very unhappy. Authenticity is another one. Do you have to be authentic? Is that who you are?

And not to use too many personal stories, but we had one of our seven kids that didn’t pass the Driver’s Ed test when it was time to go get the license. Like, they just messed up one turn. Perfect on everything but that one thing.

And they’re like, “Oh, my gosh, I don’t know what I’m going to tell my friends.” “Well, just tell them you’re taking the test tomorrow.” But that’s a lie, “Well, are you taking the test tomorrow?” “Yes, but it’s not telling them I failed today.” Like, this particular child is very authentic, “I’m not going to hide the truth.” You know what she would be terrible at? Politics.

Pete Mockaitis
Politics.

William Vanderbloemen
She’d be horrible at it. Because there is, you say, “Well, politicians are disingenuous.” Actually, to run for president of the United States, you have to know how to talk to people in Yakima, Washington, which is way different than Seattle, Washington, and in Illinois, which is way different than in Texas. And so you have to mold and adapt and shift.

And people who are very driven by authenticity will not do well in that role, nor will they do well in a sales role. There are other jobs for them. And the cool thing about the book is we actually unearthed jobs that you would think all the jobs that are listed are CEO, CFO, COO. No, no, no, no, no.

Mailman is in here. Like, things, brick mason, which is a great career to go into right now for a whole lot of reasons, not the least of which is AI. But there are clear examples within each lane. You should read the chapter about a lane and say, “That’s me.” You don’t have to go take a test. “That is actually who I am. Okay, here’s the kind of work I need to look for. Here’s the kind of work that’s going to make me crazy.”

So, hopefully, within each, and you can read them in any order, but by the end of the book, you should find one, two, or maybe three of these lanes that are like, “I was made for that.” And one, for sure, and maybe two, I don’t know about three, that you’d say, “I don’t ever need to go near work like that.” Because you can behave well at work and be awesome at your job and hate it, and what’s the point if you don’t enjoy what you’re getting to do?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, William, I dig this. So fast, prepared, purpose-driven, authenticity. Could you share one that’s maybe surprising? Like, folks say, “Huh, that’s a strength, that’s a lane I can lean into? I thought I was just weird”?

William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, well, there’s something about curiosity that is a lane for work, it’s a habit of unicorns, and it’s a bit counterintuitive to how a lot of people were raised. I was raised, “Don’t ask too many questions. Do what you’re told and you’ll do well at your job.”

In today’s world, you need to always be asking questions. You need to always be curious, “Why are we doing it that way?” The greatest value add of a longtime employee is their institutional memory which cannot be transfused in a day, right? But the greatest gift of a new team member is their ability to look at how we do things, and say, “Well, why do we do it that way? Why don’t we do it that way?”

The curious, who are always looking and always shifting and always asking the why, that might have been out of favor in an old-school world. But now that we’re in an open source, AI-driven world, it is everything. And one other that shows up that it’s not counterintuitive, but there’s a counterintuitive piece to it is agility.

There’s a lane for people who want to try new things. They’re always learning a habit or a hobby or something. The unhealthy version of it is the person who you say, “So what’s your favorite book you ever read?” And they say, “Oh, I just finished it.” And you ask them six months later, “What’s your favorite book?” “Oh, I just finished it.” It’s almost like a shiny object thing.

But the agile are the kind that can…I hate this word. It’s been five and a half years since the shutdowns and I still can’t hear the word pivot without thinking it’s a four-letter word. But people who can pivot will own the future because the world isn’t just changing annually now. It’s changing minute by minute with technological advances and such.

And here’s the surprising piece about agility, okay, “Oh, William, that makes sense. Agility, that’s a no-brainer.” Agility atrophies. It goes away a little bit every single day. And here’s the living example of that. I’m a jogger or a runner, it’s probably a matter of opinion, but I got into my 40s and I had to start stretching so I didn’t get injured. I hate doing all this stretching and preparation and I just want to go run.

Well, the stretching turned out to be harder than the running. And one time I was stretching, trying to touch my toes, and our littlest one walked in, and she sat down next to me, she tied herself into some form of human knot, and she untied herself, looked up at me, smiled, laughed out loud, left the room without saying a word. Just making total fun of me, because little kids can bend more than super Stretch Armstrong, right?

And as she left the room, it dawned on me, “Little kids can stretch, old men can’t.” Every day I’m alive, I get less flexible. So even if you’re naturally wired for agility, you have to work on it or it goes away. Every day a team is alive, it gets less flexible. Every day a company is alive, it gets less flexible. This is like a law of thermodynamics.

So the surprise about agility is not that it’s one of the lanes that you’d be looking at. The surprise is, even if you’re good at it, you’ve got to keep working at it. And if you’ll work just a little tiny bit every day, you’ll be way ahead of people as you get farther down the career road.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s interesting. In some ways, it’s sort of inversely correlated with wisdom because it’s, like, you do some things, “Hey, that worked great. Let’s do that next time,” “Hey, that worked not great. Let’s not do that next time.”

And so then, over time, you’ve got a series of associations and memories in terms of, “This is good. This is bad,” “That works. That doesn’t work.” And then you’re naturally, I felt it in myself. I’m naturally less inclined to go try that wild thing. It’s like, “Hmm, that seems a lot like these other four things I’ve tried that didn’t work. So I don’t think I want to do that.”

William Vanderbloemen
But the pace of change, I read a study some years back that said there’s been more change – this is pre-pandemic – more change in the last 10 years than in the hundred years prior technologically. And now we’re on the other side of a pandemic, and we’re into the AI world. And the study went on to say, “More change in the last 10 years than the hundred prior. And the next 10 are going to make the last 10 look slow.”

So even if you aren’t working in a job where agility is your main lane, everyone needs to work on their agility because the world, where everything stays the same, first of all, it never existed. But, secondly, if it did exist, it exists a little less each day. The rate of change is growing. My personal ability to adapt to change is shrinking. And no matter what kind of job I’m doing, I’ve got to do everything I can to narrow that gap.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, William, tell me, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

William Vanderbloemen
No, I would just say, if you’re interested at all in these things, you can just go to Vanderbloemen.com. You don’t have to know how to spell it. Just try in whatever search browser you use, and you’ll find us. And there are probably five or 6,000 resources on how to be awesome at your job, how to win at work, how to manage employees, how to ask for a raise. There’s lots of stuff there that might help people past the two books we’ve talked about.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

William Vanderbloemen
“Know thyself.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

William Vanderbloemen
The easy answer is go read Atomic Habits. There’s great stories in there about how to build habits. And I think probably 15 million people have done that now, so it’s doing all right as a book.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

William Vanderbloemen
I have made a switch to trying to write things down rather than type them, and to try and be more present with people. So I have ditched the laptop in meetings now and I’m using reMarkable. I don’t know if you know this device.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

William Vanderbloemen
It’s a Notepad that feels like paper and then it uploads straight. It digitizes everything and it uploads straight into my Google Drive. I have all my notes from all my meetings, and I’m writing. And it’s, like, if you don’t have that laptop open.

It’s like the Simon Sinek talk, where he’s like, “Hey, let me show you the difference between distracted and not.” And he talks to people, and he says, “Now, you in the front row, give me your phone.” And he just holds it, and he says, “I’m not looking at this. Do I feel more or less engaged with you right now?” And, of course, the answer is less.

So I’m trying to remove things that make me less engaged with people, and one of those is the screen. It makes it hard to get back to people with a text within a minute, but I use my little reMarkable in every meeting now.

And I’ve heard it, growing up, I’m actually believing it more than ever, “What’s written is what’s remembered.” So the actual slowness of writing out each letter instead of typing 120 words a minute, there’s something to that that ingrains it in my brain, and I’m hoping it makes me more engaged and present with folks in the coming years.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, you hear them quoted back to you often?

William Vanderbloemen
We have nine core values. They’re built around how we behave. One is called ridiculous responsiveness, and it’s just the power of getting back to people quickly and intentionally. And it’s in both books. You can read about it.

And I’ve had people say, “I took our whole staff of 500 people through the first chapter of Be the Unicorn and we built an entire strategy on getting back to people quicker, and it changed our business.” Like, over and over and over, I’m hearing people quote ridiculous responsiveness. I don’t know whether we came up with it or not, but it’s what I hear.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

William Vanderbloemen
Try spelling Vanderbloemen into any search engine, you’ll find it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, just get to know yourself. And that sounds selfish. It’s not. Once you know how you’re wired, you’ll know where you’re going to flourish the best.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. William, thank you.

William Vanderbloemen
Thank you, Pete. Appreciate you having me on.

Jan 19
0

1121: How Managers Can Lead Better TODAY (Not Someday!) with Ali Merchant

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Ali Merchant reveals the small shifts you can implement today to become a better leader immediately.

You’ll Learn

  1. How to make difficult conversations easier
  2. The three things exceptional managers do
  3. How to upgrade your one-on-ones with one question

About Ali 

Ali Merchant has spent two decades scaling Learning & Development departments for public companies, tech brands, and the world’s largest ad agencies. Today, he’s the founder of All-In Manager, a leadership development firm that trains and coaches managers to become leaders. 

Since 2018, Ali has trained thousands of managers and coached hundreds of senior leaders worldwide. He’s also the author of The All-In Manager: Become a better leader today, not someday. Ali lives in Chicago with his wife, Sarah, and their dog, Lenny.

Resources Mentioned

Thank you, Sponsors!

  • Monarch.com. Get 50% off your first year on with the code AWESOME.
  • Vanguard. Give your clients consistent results year in and year out with vanguard.com/AUDIO

Ali Merchant Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Ali, welcome!

Ali Merchant
I’m grateful to be here. Thank you, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I am grateful to have you here. In preparing, I noticed that you signed up for the email list in 2017. So, like you are a legit fan of How to Be Awesome at Your Job, and I’m legit excited to have you here.

Ali Merchant
So, I’m beaming here. I have a big smile. And before we started recording, I was telling Pete that I would listen to this incredible podcast in 2018 on the train, in the cold Chicago winter, thinking that maybe, maybe I would turn up here. So, it took me seven years, but I am super grateful that we’re doing this today.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, me too. Me, too. Well, you’ve got a great book here, The All-In Manager: Become a Better Leader Today, Not Someday. So, I’d love to start with any particularly surprising and fascinating discoveries you’ve made about effective management from your years of researching and putting this book together.

Ali Merchant
Difficult conversations do not ruin relationships. Avoiding difficult conversations, typically, tends to ruin a relationship between a manager and an employee, which was fascinating to me because, I don’t know about you, but I’ve avoided a lot of difficult conversations in my life.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s really beautiful in terms of, if we think about the avoidance of difficult conversations that’s mostly driven by fear, emotional resistance. And then you’re saying, “Au contraire, we can flip the risk profile on its head.” You’re more likely to lose by avoiding the conversation than by engaging in the conversation.

Ali Merchant
Yeah, and in the book, I talk about this idea, and let’s see if we can relate to this, when it comes to having a difficult conversation, what I find is all of us are kind of on a spectrum. Some of us are avoiders, but we don’t confront the person.

So, if Pete, I have a problem with you, I’m not going to tell you what my problem is, but I’ll go to happy hour with my wife and I’m going to complain to my wife about you, right, or I’ll tell the dog that, “Oh, my employee Pete, oh.” I won’t talk to you. That’s the huge problem.

But on the other end is we have these impulsives who will have a difficult conversation, but they’ll shoot from the hip. They’ll tell you, “Pete, you know what? You’re just not professional enough.” That tends to ruin the relationship as well. In the middle is what I call a responder who doesn’t hold back, who doesn’t shoot from the hip. That’s why you choose the word responder. He or she doesn’t react. They respond through a specific step.

And if you do that, chances are you’re actually going to end up building a better relationship by having a difficult conversation than the opposite.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great. And I’m curious, does this also apply for the individual contributor who’s thinking, “Oh, yeah, I want to share something with my manager, but I don’t know if that’s really going to go over well. I don’t know if that’s my place. Aargh! Could he yell at me or cast me out of their good graces or withhold cool opportunities from me”? Within that zone, what’s your perspective there?

Ali Merchant
Yeah, and that’s a good question, and it’s a tricky question, and the cop out answer is, “Well, Pete, it depends,” but you know what? We’re going to lean in a little bit here. The same principle applies here, which is you want to confront the problem, but you want to confront the problem correctly.

Now, the stakes are way higher if an employee confronts their manager than if a peer confronts another peer or if a manager confronts a direct report. But to answer your question, yes, I would still encourage a direct report to summon the courage and have that conversation. But, Pete, I want to be very clear here. I don’t want us to just whiff it. I want us to do it correctly at this point.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, how do we do it? Let’s hear it. What does correctly mean?

Ali Merchant
Right. So, what correctly means is we have to prep for it. And again, that’s common sense, but that’s not common practice. What happens is we keep avoiding it and then we just attack the person, like, pinch, pinch, pinch, and then crunch. And then it just breaks the dam. That’s not how you want to do this.

So, we’re going to parse this a little bit here. We’re going to, first, talk about how a manager can talk to an employee and then we’re going to flip this and do an employee to a manager. How does that sound?

Pete Mockaitis
Sure, yeah.

Ali Merchant
Yeah? So, if I’m a manager, and Pete is my employee, Pete, you’re a good person but you’re struggling in this example here. The first thing I want to do is, before I tell you you’re struggling, you’re doing this thing incorrectly, or you need to step up, or you need to be more visible, the first thing I’m going to do, and this is a little controversial, is I’m going to take your permission before I even give you my feedback.

Now, when I teach this, a lot of senior leaders are like, “Oh, are you asking me to take permission from my direct report before giving them feedback?” And my answer is, “Absolutely.” The reason why taking permission is important is because I want us to level the playing field first.

And if I come to Pete, and I ask Pete, “Hey, I’m noticing certain things here, and I want to share those certain things with you. What’s a good time for us to talk about it?” Now, Pete, if you’re just like any other human, your heart’s going to beat a little faster. You’re like, “Okay, maybe I’m in trouble.” But, regardless, if we’ve built a little bit of psychological safety, I am giving you a little bit of context and I’m asking you, “Hey, man, let’s talk about it when we’re ready.”

Now, let me kind of add a story to this because it’s important for us to understand the method behind this. So, 2014, I was extremely sick. I was in the hospital for some really difficult surgeries. My wife was at work. My wife’s boss knew I was going through some surgeries.

My wife comes to the hospital and we’re talking, and she starts to cry, and I’m like, “What’s going on?” And she’s like, “Oh, you know, my boss knows I’m really stressed out. He knows you’re going through these difficult surgeries. And he just laid into me, gave me all of this feedback and, you know, he’s right, but I just wish he would have read the room a little bit. He would have waited before giving me that feedback, right?”

And I’ve never forgotten that moment and, yes, this is my wife, but I’ve heard this over and over again from people, but just, “You know what, my boss just came in on a Monday morning and just told me, and I just wish he would have asked me if I was ready to receive said feedback.”

So, the first thing I do is level the playing field, ask for permission. Again, that’s simple, common sense, but not common practice, right? That’s step one.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I’ve loved it so much, Ali, right there, is that it’s funny because I feel like, you know, I’ve had, I don’t know, a number of therapy sessions in my day, and, at times, recurring. And what’s so funny is the timing makes all the difference.

Because, I mean, I’ve been told, not to pat myself on the back, but that when in certain contexts, like, I don’t know, going to confession, you know, literally the confession booth in a Catholic church, or therapy, or whatever, it’s like, we’re going some places, you know, it’s vulnerable, it’s sensitive, we’re getting into it.

And, like, I will go all in, to use your terminology. I will go all in and say all the things that it’s sort of like max, max vulnerable. And people seem, I guess, impressed, like that’s rare, or maybe they’re just great at affirming me. But I’ve had those environments where it’s like, “Oh, this is the time and place for us to go there, but this other person’s holding back.”

And what’s funny is, for me, and it sounds like what you’re saying is for many or even most professionals, the same principle is at work. It’s like, “We can get into it, but they want some prep, some heads up. I got to get in the head space. I’ve got the time, the energy, the emotional resilience to take on this challenge.” Just like, “Well, hey, I’m warmed up. I’m wearing my gym clothes, so let’s lift some heavy stuff.”

As opposed to, “Hey, man, can you help me move this couch?” Like, “Oh, I guess I could,” but it’s much more unsettling when it’s a surprise and you’re not in the zone for it.

Ali Merchant
Right. And you used the word time and a place, and that’s what’s literally happening, where, Pete, if you realize, I am giving my employee more control by asking them, “Hey, we do it when it’s the right time for you, okay?” That’s really important. And I like the confessional example because, when you’re giving confession, you’ve chosen to do that interestingly enough, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and it’s true.

Ali Merchant
In this dynamic, I’m giving you the choice here at this point.

Pete Mockaitis
You’re right. And with regard to choosing, it’s so true. It’s like, “Oh, maybe I should go to confession.” It’s like, “Hmm, not today. I can’t handle that today. Let’s try maybe tomorrow.”

Ali Merchant
Right, exactly. Now, I’m going to throw a curve ball here. When I teach this, someone always asks, “As an employee, can I say no to my boss that today is not a good time?” And in the book, I talk about this idea of establishing psychological safety first, which is, if you’re working with a manager who is a reasonable manager, they’re going to respect your no. In fact, they’re asking for the right reason. They’re okay if you say no at this point.

So, the first step is let’s get permission. It’s easy. You don’t even have to read the book to figure out how to ask for permission, right? The second step, Pete, people really skip this one all the time and it kills the conversation. The second step is, before you tell me what you want to tell me, do me a favor and tell me why you want to tell me that.

So, you have to share your intention with me first. So let me give you an example of what that looks like. And this example comes from my life. This is what my boss did to me a long time back. Well, I think this is 2005, 2006. I was part of a four-person team. Three people got promoted, I did not. That gutted me. I was like, “I’m better than all these three people. How come they’re getting promoted, and I’m not?”

And this is in San Francisco. I clearly remember, around 1:30, my boss emails me, he calls me into his office, and he says, “I want to tell you why you didn’t get promoted.” And then he tells me, “I have higher expectations from you and I know you can meet them, but you haven’t at this point. Here’s what’s going on.”

Now, if you think about that, what he did in that moment is he sided with me over the problem. He shared his intention before giving me a lot of the other bad news, right? So, the first step was, “Get permission.” The second step is, “Tell me your why,” or share your intention. Give me the why before you tell me the what.

Now, as far as the third, fourth, and fifth is concerned, I’m going to give you a really simple framework. And I’m a simple guy, simple works. The framework is “What?” “So what?” “Now what?” That’s all you have to do. The “What?” is going to be the specific challenge. So, if, Pete, you seem to be coming in late to our meetings, you’re dialing in late, you’re not showing up on time, that’s the “What?” here.

Now, the mistake we make is instead of calling out Pete’s specific behavior, we judge Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
“He’s lazy. He doesn’t care about the team!”

Ali Merchant
Right, we might think it, “But, Pete has checked out. Pete slacks off. Pete is not professional.” The amount of people who’ve come to me telling me, “Oh, my boss just said I’m not professional.” That’s a judgment that kills the conversation, right?

Pete Mockaitis
You what’s funny is you could also invent a judgment. I mean, these are just stories, that’s positive. Well, Pete is having so many ingenious, revolutionary, innovative ideas. And his creative deep work fugue states that, of course, is to be expected that sometimes he’ll be late.” So, like, I mean, you just made that up, too, but it’s still a judgment and isn’t serving anybody.

Ali Merchant
And you’re right, it is a judgment, but it’s not serving me and it’s not serving you. And when I make the judgment, here’s what happens most of the time. My favorite is, “You’re not being strategic enough.” What does that mean? I honestly do not know what that means, right? All I know is you’ve made a judgment.

Pete Mockaitis
“You don’t like it. It’s a bad thing.”

Ali Merchant
Right. So, my guidance, and it’s not my guidance, it’s a phenomenal book called The Nonviolent Communication, NVC.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, by Marshall, yeah.

Ali Merchant
Right. And they talk about this idea of, yeah, judgment is like you’re attacking the character of someone, and you don’t intend to do it. You don’t intend to do it. We’re humans, we’re messy, that’s what happens. But if you want to become an all-in manager, you have to get better at these things, right? So, I want you to be a little more specific.

Then what you’ve done is, once you’ve been a little specific, then tell me why I should care. What’s the so what here? “Pete, when you’re late or, Pete, when you raise your voice,” see, I almost caught myself. Yeah, I know people can’t see me, but, Pete, I don’t know if you saw me. I was going to say, “Pete, when you’re rude…” Rude is a judgment.

I corrected myself by saying, “Pete, when you raise your voice…” Raise your voice is a behavior, “When you raise your voice, the team stops contributing,” that’s the “So what?” And the “Now what?” is, “Pete, can you tell me if this is something you’re observing? Pete, can you tell me how we can correct this behavior?” Or, “Pete, I need you to do this to correct that behavior.” It’s pretty simple here. You take permission. You tell me the why, the what, the so what, and the now what.

Now, Pete, let me just slip one thing in. I will bet a dollar that someone who’s listening to this podcast is going to be like, “This guy is telling me I got to do all of this to give feedback? I don’t have a lot of time,” and that person is correct. These steps that I just described to you are reserved for really difficult behavioral types of things.

The other branch of constructive feedback is in-the-moment feedback where, you know, if I see a Slack message from you, or if you send me a slide and it’s not great, I’m not going to go through the steps. I’m just going to tell you, “Hey, Pete, I saw a couple of typos. Maybe you want to fix X, Y, Z,” that’s in the moment. I don’t have to go through all of these things.

Behavioral feedback is the tough stuff. It’s the stuff that gives us sleepless nights. It’s the stuff that upsets us. It’s the kind of stuff where people raise their voice or, you know, they’re making a lot of mistakes, or they’re not being proactive. That’s the heavy stuff that we kind of hold close for those types of conversations, difficult conversations. These types of steps are almost necessary.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, and I hear you that you don’t have to go through it every time. But I guess, I’m also thinking, what you’ve described doesn’t sound like it takes a boatload of additional time. It seems like blocking off 10 minutes on your calendar with a legal pad to think through a little bit of these framework pieces, and you’re good to go.

Ali Merchant
You’re absolutely good to go. And, Pete, if you want, we can actually add a little document to your show notes for your audience.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes, please.

Ali Merchant
It’s, literally, a prep doc, and it’s 10 minutes. You got 10 minutes. I got 10 minutes, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. Well, yeah. Well, Ali, this is great stuff, specifically in the zone of feedback or difficult conversations. But could we zoom out a bit to hear the big picture? What is the big idea behind The All-In Manager?

Ali Merchant
Well, let me take a step back here. The reason why I wrote The All-in Manager was out of sheer frustration. I was really frustrated with a lot of leadership advice, which is very well-intentioned, but a lot of leadership advice, I find, at least, is designed or written for the ideal world.

I wanted to write a book for the real world. I wanted to write a book which was a problem-solving manual of sorts. I don’t know about you, but, Pete, I’ve been to enough leadership conferences where the person on the stage talks about, “And then we scaled Mount Everest.” And that’s cool, that’s inspirational.

But what I want to know is how do I have a very difficult performance review with someone I like? I need to fix a problem today. I don’t need the pie-in-the-sky stuff. That was one of the reasons why I wrote the book. But I want to explain to your audience what I mean by the term all-in manager, because anyone can use the word all-in.

For us to understand what I mean by the word all-in manager, we have to first understand what is an accidental manager. An accidental manager is someone who was given the promotion, to lead others without any training, coaching, mentoring. They were just given the job because they were really good as individual contributors, right?

Nearly two-thirds of managers are accidental. I’m an accidental manager. Now, what’s the problem with that? The problem isn’t that you’re an accidental manager. The problem is they remain stuck as accidental. They stop learning, they stop growing because they get so busy.

But here’s the dangerous part. They start winging it. They start winging leadership. They’re like, “Oh, I know how to do this. I’ll just do it like my boss does it.” An all-in manager is someone that rejects that status quo. An all-in manager is not a guru. I can’t stand that term. An all-in manager isn’t a charismatic leader who never says ums or ahs. None of that.

An all-in manager is a human being just like you and I, but an all-in manager does three things exceptionally well. And, Pete, the language is going to matter. Number one, an all-in manager personally cares about the success of their people. Common sense, not common practice. Two, an all-in manager is an insatiable learner. I didn’t say a learner, I said insatiable learner.

And the third thing, which is my favorite, is an all-in manager is responsible to drive meaningful results. I did not say results. I said meaningful results. There’s a huge difference between results and meaningful results. Now, here’s the caveat. You can’t have one or two. You need all three. You need all three to go all in at this point.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that checks out very nicely in terms of my experience and in my own world, in terms of, like, people will tell me, when I’m making conversations, “Oh, what do you do?” It’s like, “Oh, I have a podcast.” “Oh, cool, what podcast?” “How to be Awesome at Your Job.” “Well, hell, Pete, how do I be awesome at my job?”

Like, that’s the one-word answer is care, in terms of, if you’re invested in your product, your service, your offer, your customer, your shareholders, your team, your process,” then, I mean, it all flows from that.

And when you don’t, it’s like, well, you could just sort of go through the motions for a while until you get fired or you retire, but it’s not going to be magically transformative for anybody on any dimension.

Ali Merchant
Right. Caring is such a core component of this. It’s, like, you can be brilliant, but you can be a brilliant jerk as well. And I don’t know if a lot of people want to work for a brilliant jerk, right? So, in the book, I talk about this idea of trust. And again, trust is so, like, we all think we know it, but when you ask someone to define what trust is, we’re like, “Oh,” it can be a little nebulous.

And in all the research around trust, what I find is caring pops up a lot. And for your audience, I want us to contrast what I mean by caring here. The easy definition of caring is you care for me. You’re good to me. You’re kind to me. That’s half of the coin here. The other half is you care enough about me to tell me the truth.

That’s the hard part because we know a lot of people who care but they care only to tell us the positive stuff. But when it comes to having the difficult conversations, they’re like, “Oh, they might get offended.” No, what my definition of caring is you care enough about me so much that you tell me, “Ali, you need to step up,” right? But caring is not that easy.

I’ll give you a story again from the book. I worked with the head of HR a long time back. This is again during those days when I wasn’t feeling well and she called me, she checked in on me to find out how I was doing. Again, a head of HR, normal stuff for a head of HR. We have a nice conversation, a pleasant conversation. This was Google Hangout.

We finished the phone call on the Hangout, she calls me again after five minutes, and I’m like, “What’s going on?” And she’s like, “Hey, I just wanted you to know I called our insurance company and I enrolled you into this concierge service.” I had no idea what she was talking about. I’m like, “Well, what is that?” She’s like, “Well, I know you’ve been really sick. This service is going to help you get to the right people faster.”

And if you’ve been sick, it’s difficult to go through the hospital maze and all of that. And it took her two minutes to do that. It’s been 11 years since then, I haven’t forgotten. That is an example of an all-in leader, someone who cares enough for their people to go the extra mile, right? Common sense but not common practice.

Pete Mockaitis
Boy, yeah, this reminds me, I’m tearing up a little bit just thinking about it. I remember, boy, during the COVID time, you know, it was tricky and my wife was sort of sick and out of commission. And then it was the first time that I was kind of solo duty with the two kids for week plus contiguously. And it was like, “Oh, my gosh.”

And then, someone I was working with sent me a variety of kids toys activities, they’re like, “These will be of assistance to you.” And it was magical, and, yeah, the kids liked them. But more than that was here’s a human being who genuinely put himself into my shoes, like, “Oof, in that context, it is tough. And I can’t do a whole lot, we’re not in the same city, but here’s something I can do.” And it made an impact.

Ali Merchant
It sticks with you. And, you know, it’s funny, you hear these incredible stories that happen to us in our personal lives. These types of stories happen in professional lives as well. But I would love to see a world, or to live in a world, where they happen a lot. I’ll tell you, since you inspired me to share a story here.

Our dog died last year after he was 17, and we’re in Chicago. Chicago gets pretty cold here in the winter time. And my sister-in-law, who lives in Michigan, travels a lot, sent us this really cool, flavorful soup with ladles, and it was an incredible gift. Soup is soup, but it was so meaningful at the end, right? And the world of work sometimes is devoid of that.

And, Pete, I tell you, that is my definition of an all-in manager, who does these types of things for their people because, “Man, why would I follow you? Why do I give you the gift of leading me when you don’t do these things for me? You have to do those things for me, especially now.”

Pete Mockaitis
And this is a really good, feel good, positive vibe, and I want to reinforce that, and to not pervert it or twist it for mercenary ends. But this is triggering for me a memory of, in Bob Cialdini’s, I think it’s his book, Pre-Suasion.

He talks about, like, even people who are like war prisoners, when given a super thoughtful, relevant, useful gift, or maybe it was informants, or maybe both, that’s sufficient, like, “You know what? That was so awesome. I’m cool trading my company, or my country, or my regime to be of service to you, US soldier, because it’s, well, it’s beautiful and it’s powerful on a human emotional heart level.”

And, of course, do it with a pure intention as opposed to, “I’m going to get something out of this person.”

Ali Merchant
Sure.

Pete Mockaitis
But it’s impactful.

Ali Merchant
And, you know, since we’re talking about impact and positive vibes, I would be remiss if I didn’t say that we started with difficult conversations and feedback. But here’s the thing, when I write the book, the book on the chapter on feedback doesn’t start with constructive. It doesn’t. I made a deliberate choice not to start. I wanted to start with positive feedback.

And there are two reasons, because humans change best by feeling good about themselves. And the second is, if you are the type of leader who gives genuine recognition, your constructive feedback is going to land that much better, “Because now I know when I drop the ball, or when I do something good, Pete gives me really great recognition. And when I drop the ball, Pete is always the first one to tell me, ‘Man, you got to pick that up.’”

However, in the world of work, positive feedback is warped. We think we’re doing it correctly. Some of us are, but most of us are not. And we can dive into what correct or rich recognition looks like. But my point is, if you see something good, say something good. And, by the way, for the individual contributors listening to this podcast, if you see your boss doing something good, let them know. Empathy only flows down. It needs to flow up as well.

And every time I’ve sent a note to the CEO saying, “Hey, I really liked the presentation,” the response was like, “Oh, my God, thank you. That makes me feel great,” because no one does that, right? So be a different person. And if you see something good, call them out. Don’t catch people doing wrong things all the time. Catch them doing good things and let them know as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good, yes. Thank you. Well, you got a cool subtitle, “Become a Better Leader Today, Not Someday.” I want to hear about that thoughtful choice. Do we fall into a someday trap at our peril?

Ali Merchant
Yeah, it’s a hot take. I think there’s a myth that it takes decades and decades to do this. I think that you can do small things today to start leading today. And, Pete, I’m going to give you an example, because if people are skeptical, that’s good. You’re in the right place because I’m going to build my case here.

When I teach people how to do one-on-ones, I’ll tell them, “Hey, you know what, next time when you’re having a one-on-one with your direct report, don’t go in asking, ‘What’s the status on this or that?’ You can do that, but don’t do it all the time. Maybe today, what you do is you ask Pete, if Pete is your direct report, ‘Pete, what is top of mind for you today?’ or, ‘Pete, what is it that you want to talk about today?’”

And, Pete, it’s such a small thing, right? Even when I teach this, I’m like, “No one would care.” But what shocks me is, after a couple of weeks, people come back, and they’re like, “Oh, my God, Ali, I tried that. And for the first time, my direct report started to talk to me. It was their meeting. They seemed a little more engaged.” So that is leadership. You get to do that today.

I’ll give you another example of how you get to lead today, which is, you know, managers, and I’ve made this mistake all the time, I love giving advice, and I thought giving advice was me being helpful. But, Pete, I don’t know if you worked with an executive coach or a therapist, what does a good therapist do? They’re drawing something out of you. They’re asking you really good questions.

So today, challenge yourself that, “In my next one-on-one, instead of defaulting to giving advice, I’m just going to ask a question or I’m going to ask a follow-up question.” And it’s these small tune-ups or small changes that you can make that will allow you to become a better leader today, not someday.

Pete Mockaitis
And what’s intriguing is, when you ask, “What’s top of mind for you?” and, Ali, if I may, do you have, this is, we’re tuning up precise verbiage and phraseology. If people feel that’s a little too corporate-y or consultant-y, do you have some synonymous phrases for what’s top of mind for you today?

Ali Merchant
Yeah, totally. Totally. Wow, man, I’m like a corporate person now. That is interesting. I’ll tell you. “You got any hot topics?” Hot topics is good, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I like it.

Ali Merchant
“What’s got you occupied this week?”

Pete Mockaitis
I’m thinking about the mall store hot topic. Like, “Yeah, I’ve got a black fedora on me.” No, but what’s great about that is that it opens up exactly what you want in terms of, and it might be that you might get a response about work, you might get a response about not work. For example, what’s top of mind for me is, we had a pipe burst in this house.

Ali Merchant
There you go.

Pete Mockaitis
And it’s a whole situation with the remediation and reconstruction, and so that is top of mind. And so, like, it’s quite possible that in a professional context, a manager would have no idea that that’s occurring in my life, and yet it’s consuming a substantial amount of my mental emotional energy.

And then that opens up any number of cool things in terms of, “Oh, well, I know an amazing contractor,” or, “Oh, shucks, that sounds terrible. Is your family, are they in a good spot? Well, hey, I’ve got some hotel points.” Yeah, whatever.

It could go any number of opportunities to, at least, be a little bit more considerate and understanding about what you’re putting on their plate, or, at most, say, “Oh, I just so happen to have an extremely appropriate and valuable something-something that I can contribute into your life.”

Ali Merchant
Right. And we’re going to stick with the pipe burst because I love that example. Now, imagine I use the question, “What’s going on?” instead of, “Hey, what’s happening with this thing?” And the person says, “It’s winter time and our pipe burst, and it’s been a whole mess.” And now I know, we have a project due today, and now I know, “Hey, maybe, like, are you okay to do this? Do we want to extend the deadline?” Do you see how the pipe burst leans into work?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, totally.

Ali Merchant
That’s the beauty of this because if my pipe burst, but I didn’t tell my manager, and I said, “Hey, you know what? I’m really struggling today. I can’t do this,” and my reasoning as a manager is like, “Well, you had two weeks to do this. What’s the problem?” Now I have more context about the situation.

And when you have context, the next line of inquiry becomes way easier. Now, I just want to be mindful here, right? These one-on-ones aren’t going to be about personal things all the time. Most of the time they’re going to be about work and that’s okay. They should be about work. But that’s, in the book, I talk about the three Ps. Sorry, I’m a learning and development guy. There’s always going to be three P’s, right? Priorities, position and person.

Person is the pipe burst. Position is a career conversation. And, by the way, you’re not going to have it every week, not even every month, maybe once a quarter, once in six months. But typically, all your one-on-ones are going to be about priorities, “What is, like, the big thing you’re working on and where do you need my help? What are some of your blockers? How can I help you reduce some of your blockers?” That’s a good one-on-one right here.

But let’s not forget that there is a person behind the title and pipes burst in life. That’s also what happens.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well said. Well, Ali, tell me, any final things you really want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Ali Merchant
You know, we spoke a lot about these difficult conversations. My wish is that we do have those difficult conversations, but I think the easiest thing we can do is find one person in our orbit, on our team, or our peer, or our manager, and just give them some very specific recognition. Not just, “Hey, you’re great.”

You know what, that’s good if you’ve never said that, I’ll take it. But something which is specific, something which is timely, something which is sincere, it could be a handwritten note, it could be an email, it could be a thoughtful Slack message. I’m telling you, and I know this sounds so simple, but I just don’t see it in the world of work as much as I would like for it to see.

So, the one thing I would advise or request everyone listening to this, the simplest thing you can do, if you see something good, say something good and make it specific.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Ali Merchant
I’ll give you a line. It comes from this book by David Brooks. I think the book is How to Know a Person. And he says the whole world has diminishers and illuminators.

And diminishers are people who will diminish your light. They won’t give you the recognition. They won’t tell you the encouraging thing or they won’t send Pete toys or something. Illuminators are people that will take the smallest of things and they’ll amplify it. So, in a world of diminishers, you want to be an illuminator.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And could you share a favorite study or experiment or piece of research?

Ali Merchant
Yeah, so the favorite research comes from Stanford, and this was done in 1990. This research is called tappers and listeners. And, Pete, when I wrote this in the book, I thought no one would care. This is one of the most highlighted passages in the book, which blows my mind. It’s a cool study. So, in 1990, I forget the name of the researcher. The researcher came up with two groups of people, tappers and listeners.

She told the tappers, “Your job is to tap a well-known tune, like Happy Birthday or Jingle Bells or Christmas Season.” And the listeners were supposed to guess the tune. Simple. The tappers thought that the listeners would guess the tune at least 50% of the time. Any idea what the percentage is of the listeners guessing the actual tune?

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I haven’t read the full text of this study, but I remember from people talking about it, it’s way low. It’s way less than 50%.

Ali Merchant
Right, it’s 3%. The accurate figure is 2.6 or 2.7. Why am I sharing this with you? I am sharing this with you because if you’re a manager, you are a tapper. And if you’re an employee, you’re a listener. What do I mean by that? A lot of managers, present company included, I’m raising my hand, we think that our employees listen to the melody inside of our heads. They don’t.

We have to make the implicit, I’m pointing to my head right now, we have to make the implicit explicit. We have to tell our people what we expect them to do. The tappers and listeners study, hopefully, is something that captures your imagination and it reminds you that, “I have to do a better job of communicating my standards and my expectations with the people who report in to me.”

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. And a favorite book?

Ali Merchant
I absolutely love this book. This book is called Zen and the Art of Firefighting. It’s written by a firefighter.

This incredible firefighter who talks about life and leadership from the lens of an actual firefighter. It’s a great book. It’s going to make you a better leader regardless of whether you have thousands of people who report into you or you have none. It’s a phenomenal book as well.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool?

Ali Merchant
I’m not going to give you any AI tools, but I will tell you, I am not a podcaster like you, not even close, but I do love Descript because that is the only tool that has actually saved me hours and hours up on work. I lied. I have to mention one AI tool. The Google Tool Notebook LLM, I think, is very cool. It does a lot of cool visuals. I’m a fan of it.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a particular nugget you share that really connects and resonates, and people quote back to you often?

Ali Merchant
Well, there are two things. The difficult conversation line, “If I hear you correctly,” that resonates a lot with people, especially people who are conflict averse.

And the second thing that I hear a lot from people is the idea that we’ve been taught that giving an answer is an act of value or of helpfulness. That is incorrect. Sometimes listening and asking a question is also an act of value. I think it gives people permission to not just fix things but to listen, observe, empathize, and stay curious.

Pete Mockaitis
And the first one you said was just the phrase itself, “If I’m hearing you correctly”?

Ali Merchant
Yeah, difficult conversations don’t ruin relationships. Avoiding them often does. Yeah, that sticks a lot. I think it kind of rhymes a little bit, to a certain extent, but I love it. I’ve been a conflict-averse person for a majority of my life. And after I discovered this, I’m like, “Wow, I can do this. I can have a difficult conversation without hurting someone. I can be direct. I can be kind.”

And from my personal experience, I’ve learned that you get to build a better relationship if you have those types of conversations. Now, I just want to also be clear here. I’m not using the word candor. Candor is a good word. Unfortunately, it’s been hijacked by a lot of people for saying whatever the heck they want to say, “Oh, I was just being candid.”

No. Candid is you being direct and you being kind at the same time. You can hold someone accountable while being empathetic. That’s not like a mutually exclusive deal you make. You can do both at the same time. In fact, if you want to become an elite leader, you have to learn to do both at the same time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Ali Merchant
AllInManager.com, one word. That site will take you to my book. They can find me on LinkedIn, Ali Merchant.

The book is available on Kindle. It’s available on paperback. It’s available on hardcover. One thing, a shameless plug, if I may, if you get the book, chapter two will give you access to all the tools, all the templates, all the bonuses, all the fun stuff.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Ali Merchant
I’m going to double down on what I said, which is, next week or in the new year, make a plan to find one person in your orbit, go to them and share rich recognition with them.

One person. Make that into a ritual of yours. Don’t have to do it every week. Do it once a month. Your life will meaningfully improve if you become the person who looks for the good in people and calls it out.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Ali, thank you.

Ali Merchant
This was so much fun. I appreciate you.

Jan 15
0

1120: How to Stop Living on Autopilot and Choose What Matters Most with Erin Coupe

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Erin Coupe discusses how to redirect your attention from the energy wasters to the things that matter to you.

You’ll Learn

  1. How to stop getting in your own way
  2. The trick to quieting your negative inner voice
  3. Two rituals to keep you in control of your day

About Erin 

Erin Coupe is a speaker, executive partner, and founder of I Can Fit That In, a movement helping high-achievers shift from imminent burnout to fulfillment through intentional living and self-leadership. After nearly two decades in global corporate roles, Erin embarked on a personal transformation that led her to integrate neuroscience, energy work, and spirituality into business and life. Today, she empowers leading professionals to trade autopilot for alignment, and design lives that feel as good on the inside as they look on the outside. Her work challenges hustle culture with a grounded, soulful framework for sustainable success and well-being.

Resources Mentioned

Thank you, Sponsors!

  • Monarch.com. Get 50% off your first year on with the code AWESOME.

Erin Coupe Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Erin, welcome!

Erin Coupe
Thank you, Pete. It’s great to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it is great to be chatting with you and I’d love to hear, for starters, so founding, I Can Fit That In and writing a book, I Can Fit That In, could you share with us a surprising discovery you’ve made about us humans while walking this adventure?

Erin Coupe
Yeah, I’ve made it about myself, first and foremost, and then with clients. We get in our own way. We have a lot of limitations in our minds by the way of thoughts we have repetitively, which become beliefs. And left unchecked, those do not serve us. Go figure. And in the long run, when we do start to check those thoughts and really reframe those beliefs, we can achieve so much and live a much more fulfilling life.

Pete Mockaitis
Can you give us some top examples for how we get in our own way?

Erin Coupe
Well, I would say one of the top ones is that we believe things for a very long time that are actually not necessarily our own truth. They are things that are picked up along the way through societal or familial structures and systems. And they are beliefs that maybe, at some point, did serve someone in our lives, but maybe they don’t necessarily serve us. So let me just give you an example.

Growing up, you learn when you are a young child that you need to look both ways before you cross the street. That is a belief that will serve you your entire life, no matter where you go on this planet, right? It is something that was ingrained in you and you act upon that every single day, right, whether you’re driving, riding a bike, walking, you name it.

A belief that you’re never going to be good enough to be this or like that or this kind of person or live in that kind of place or whatever, there is absolutely no truth in that. It is not grounded in any sort of reality or fact, but maybe someone has told you that along the way.

Maybe it was a teacher or a coach or a parent or a grandparent or an aunt, uncle, sibling. Someone maybe has told you something like that that is not your truth. And yet if you continue to believe that, it will hold you back from your own potential.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so I’m intrigued. We got one belief that you shared that works great for the whole life. You have one that seems like rubbish nonsense from the get-go. Could you also give us an example of something that, hey, that worked great before, but now it’s no longer working for you?

Erin Coupe
I’ll just give you from just one of my own experiences with this stuff, is that I believed for a long time that there’s no way I could start my own business. Now, the reason I believed that is because I had the stability and the security of a corporate job for a very long time. And while I knew I was onto something and wanting to start my own business based on passions, I also didn’t feel like it was meant for me.

I sort of saw entrepreneurship as something that was unreachable and something that was meant for other people, but definitely not someone like me. And yet, no, that’s not true. Who was I to tell myself that every single day without ever even trying it, right? So, I would let my own mind hold me back for a few years of wanting to start my own business before I actually did it.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really interesting. And could you elaborate on that notion that, “There’s no way I can start my own business. That’s for other people and not me”? I’m wondering, is that just sort of the open and shut of it, or are there some sort of particular subpoints on the outline of that belief, if you will, in terms of, because I mean, someone might just say, “Well, why Erin?” It’s like, “Oh, I guess there’s no reason. Silly me. And I chuck it behind.” But is there more sort of support under that belief?

Erin Coupe
There’s a lot underneath it. And the thing is I teach this in a lot of my coaching and in my book. If we don’t go inward and actually start to dig as to why we believe something that no longer serves us, or maybe it never has, but it certainly doesn’t serve our future self, if we’re not doing that, then we’re just letting these sorts of fear-based beliefs drive our actions, or as I say, our inactions. And the inactions are even more important, many times, than the actions.

Because if you know that there’s something that you’re after, but then you look at everyone else and go, “Oh, that’s meant for them, it’s not for me,” that’s just a victimhood mindset. There’s no one that’s going to come in and change that for you. It is a personal responsibility to take a look at it and shift it into something that feels more aligned and feels more true to you.

So, at the very bottom or the very root of that belief I just shared with you that I held for some time, it was that I didn’t believe I was good enough to start my own business, and that was rooted in fear that people wouldn’t want what I have to offer.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and it’s intriguing, and I guess if you dig into it, you’ll find different things at the root. And I’ve heard, I’m thinking about this specifically, if I can’t start my own business, and one is that, “But, boy, I just don’t think I would have the discipline to do all the things if I didn’t have a boss to report to.”

And I think there’s sort of an answer to everything in terms of, well, you could run experiments, get a coach, get an accountability partner, or find a co-working space, or make some commitments, you put some money on the line, whatever. Like, that’s solvable. Or, one I heard often, so in the United States for international listeners, there’s a bit of a health insurance situation, which is tricky.

It can be rather pricey if you’re on your own to take care of health insurance. And I’ve heard some people say, “Oh, well, I got to keep the job because I need the health insurance.” And so sometimes that is just some exploration away in terms of getting some quotes, and say, “Whoa, that is pricey, but it’s not, you know, astronomical. Now it’s a number that could be contended with.”

Erin Coupe
Right, no, absolutely. They are very real realities in any country, right? But that said, these beliefs aren’t just about starting a business or not.

Some of these beliefs are also just like very basic stuff. Like, for example, busyness equals importance, and, “My self-worth is measured on my output and my productivity.” Like, is that true? Well, no, it’s actually not true. You’re worthy, regardless of how much you can crank out every day, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay. Well, so tell us then, what’s a little bit of perhaps the process of, you notice, “I’ve got this belief that it’s not helpful. It may or may not be true, but it doesn’t seem helpful.” What’s our next step? What do we do with that?

Erin Coupe
Yeah, the first and foremost thing is, you know, self-awareness is something that has to be developed and cultivated. It is not something that is supernatural to us. And the reason it’s not is because we do have this thing called society, right? We are raised by people in cultures that are just doing the best they can with what they know.

So, if everyone is just doing the best they can with what they know, then we are going to be a byproduct, essentially, of what we’re raised within. So, that being said, self-awareness comes down to not to be confused with self-analysis. I’m very, very keen on the fact that people have to understand this is not about analyzing yourself.

What self-awareness is, is knowing your sort of triggers and what makes you emotionally feel distraught or not like yourself, but then also what are some of those thoughts that you have that you don’t really want to have, the ones that really do hold you back or feel like they’re heavy or they’re daunting, but you’re having them repeatedly. Self-awareness is about noticing those things.

And the real key, the key aspect of this is, you know, Harvard Business Review said, in a couple of different research pieces that I found as I was writing the book, 85% of people believe they’re self-aware, but only 15% are. And that was as of a few years ago.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, we’ve had Dr. Tasha Eurich on the show a couple times, yeah, discussing some of that.

Erin Coupe
Yeah. And so, that’s the thing. It’s, like, if that’s the case, and that means we all have some ability to improve, we all have the ability to improve our self-awareness. And if we don’t, like I said in the beginning, if we don’t start to check some of what’s happening inside of us, understanding the emotions and the reactions that we’re having, and then being more aware of the thoughts that we have so that we can start to direct those thoughts, some may call it choose thoughts, right? We do have the ability to choose.

If we’re not doing that, we’re not self-aware. If we’re not noticing our emotions and our triggers and processing that, not necessarily always in real time, but as much as we can. And if we’re not questioning some of the thoughts we have, which turn into beliefs, then we’re not self-aware because how can we be? We’re just running on autopilot reacting to everything coming at us.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’d love your take on the choosing or directing of thoughts. Let’s say, we’ve started to take some steps here. So, it’s like, “Okay, it looks like I’ve got some sort of a belief that my value or worth is contingent upon my output or my success or results.” And then I get a disappointment, I try a thing really hard. I don’t get the outcome I want and I’m bummed. And then, I’m talking to myself in a not so handy way, like, “Oh, I’m a loser. This will never work out.’”

Okay, so he’s like, “All right. Oh, okay. I listened to Erin, and I’m hearing this is some self-awareness I got about me and how I operate and some thoughts that are popping up that I would prefer to choose otherwise, and yet they’re there. I got either some thoughts, there are some emotions. Now what?”

Erin Coupe
Yeah, thoughts create emotions, and emotions create thoughts, so it can be a very vicious cycle, right? I always talk about this kind of like a spiral, you know. And if it’s a funnel spiral and you start up here with a thought and emotion, eventually you’re going to keep going down that spiral.

And that’s why it’s called spiraling, and I’m sure you and your listeners, myself included, have all had that experience of what it means to feel a certain way and then think more of those things that make you feel that way again and again and again.

So, the awareness piece is about understanding when you are super reactionary, and creating a pause, an intentional pause, to take a look at what’s happening. And then this is not something that you can do by talking to another person, and saying, “Hey, what is happening within me right now?” This is something that only you can do with you.

Now people do things like therapy and what have you, in hindsight, yes, that could be helpful. But in your own self, what are you saying to you that you just no longer want to believe? What are you thinking that you no longer want to think? And what are you feeling that you want to shift? The awareness piece is the very first conscious step to making those shifts.

And without the awareness piece, those things are not going to shift on their own. Yeah, you might get a good night’s sleep and feel a little better the next day, but you’re still going to have the thoughts and the emotions and they’re going to keep rising up, right?

So, first of all, emotions are not a bad thing, and a lot of people want to only hold on to the really good ones, the excitement, the joy and the happiness and all that stuff, and they want to shine everything else that they feel.

Now, jealousy, envy, anger, irritability, all of it is just information. It’s just information. Where are you thinking about things that don’t serve you? Where are you believing things that don’t serve you? Where are you putting your energy or your focus or your attention that actually is not moving the needle in the way that you want to, or that is focusing on something that is just negative or not worth your time and attention, right? So, this is where that awareness piece is first and foremost.

And then the second thing is, and I like to give people this tool, one of the things that you can do that is so helpful is start to name that voice that talks to you in a way that you don’t like being spoken to. So, it’s like, would you talk to a friend the way that you talk to yourself in your own head? Would you go tell a friend to believe that they’re not worthy unless they have produced X amount per day? Or would you go tell a friend that they should equate their importance in life or how much they matter based on how busy they are?

Like, no, you would never do that, right? So, talk to yourself in a way you want to talk to. And one of the ways that you can start to make that distinction or delineation is to give that voice a name, that voice that likes to talk down to you. It likes to be mean, demean you, demoralize you. It likes to sabotage you. My own voice, her name is Erica. Lovely name, but it just works.

Like, Erin is who I am in my heart. That is my truth. That is my authentic self. That’s my essence, my core. But Erica is that person in my head who is literally just my ego. We all have one. And she likes to do things and say things that are just not so kind, right?

So, I can notice when she’s speaking up and I can choose to listen and to follow what she says, or I can choose to speak back to her and say, “Erica, I get what you’re doing. I understand. I totally know you’re here. I’m not going to shun you. I’m not going to act like you’re not here. But I don’t have to listen to that right now. I’m going to choose this direction or this thought instead.”

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m curious, how did you settle on the name Erica?

Erin Coupe
It felt like it was very similar to my name and it just felt right, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s like an alter ego.

Erin Coupe
Yeah. I mean, I’ve heard people be like, “Oh, it’s the devil,” “It’s Poseidon,” people give it whatever name they feel some sort of, I would say, a visceral response to most of the time. Some people pick up some terrible boss’ name or something like that, but, whatever.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s interesting. In a way, I think that kind of matters, well, you tell me, because if you think it’s like the devil or a boss that you couldn’t stand, then it almost feels like this is an enemy that must be conquered, pushed against, vanquished, as opposed to a helper, like, “Oh, I see you’re trying to keep me safe or point out some watchouts, and thanks for your input…”

Erin Coupe
I agree.

Pete Mockaitis
“But I want to take a different path here.” So, I don’t know, do we want to dominate the alter ego or do we want to placate them, or what’s our optimal strategy?

Erin Coupe
Well, here’s the deal, it’s never going to go away, right? So, I’m a big friend to it. Like, I believe that we have to accept that it’s there. It has a purpose, right? Like, its purpose is that it likes to create predictability. It likes knowing what is going to happen.

The problem is, there’s no way to know what’s going to happen. It doesn’t know the future. It cannot predict the future. It only can decide and tell you things based on the past. That is very, very important to understand. Why listen to this voice in your head who has no idea what is going to happen?

Now, keeping you safe and all of that, yes, I mean, if you’re near a cliff and it’s slippery, like there’s some real scenarios there about keeping you safe. And so, fear will kick in and you need to listen to that voice. But if it’s just kind of your everyday life and it comes to making decisions and choices in your everyday life, I mean, how much do you need to just stay in that comfort zone, which is many times just familiar, and that’s why it’s comfortable, even though your growth lies outside of that?

We choose sometimes that predictability and that safety zone, that comfort zone, because anything outside of that is scary to our ego.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very good. Well, you also talk a lot about rituals, so I’d love to get your pro take here. How does that fit in to I Can Fit That In?

Erin Coupe
Yeah, so “I can fit that in” is a mindset shift, essentially. Going from, “I don’t have time for that,” or, “I never have time for myself,” or, “I never have time for the things that matter to me,” to, “I can fit that in because it matters to me,” “I can fit that in because I want to give energy to it,” or, “I can fit that in because I want to receive energy from it.”

This is a complete 180, right? When we tell ourselves that we don’t have time for something that matters to us, all we’re doing is slipping into resentment, deep-seated anger, and a victimhood mindset. Versus, if we start to ask ourselves, “Is it worth fitting in?” if it matters to you, you’re going to find a way.

Just like if you think about, I don’t know, like dating, anyone who’s ever dated before, right? Like, most of us who are adults have. If you really want to see someone, you’re going to find a way to put that into your schedule. You’re going to find a way to fit that into your day, right?

Same goes for how we care for ourselves, how we care for others, how we show up with others, whether that’s our communities, our families, our friends, our colleagues, our clients. Rituals are the answer, from my perspective, on how you start to fit in what matters to you. You ritualize certain things that otherwise may just be an afterthought, or may just be things that kind of fall by the wayside in your everyday life when you don’t want them to.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, “I can fit that in,” as a reframe, is almost the affirmative positive opposite of, “I don’t have time.”

Erin Coupe
Exactly. Not about time management, whatsoever.

Pete Mockaitis
And so then, in a way, it also has, I guess, the contrary or opposing point. If there’s something that doesn’t matter to say, “I don’t have time,” is not really truthful, so much as it’s like, “That does not actually matter to me enough for me to choose to fit that in.”

And so, I don’t know, you probably want to use different language when you’re declining opportunities presented to yourself by others. But if you’re being real with yourself and how you’re choosing to deploy your time on this earth, I mean, that’s what’s really going on there.

Erin Coupe
That’s absolutely right. I mean, that’s why on the cover of the book, there’s a Luna Moth, which symbolizes transformation and growth, and there’s a pair of scissors inside of it, right, that are shown within the Luna Moth.

The scissors mean cut out the stuff that doesn’t matter. Cut out the stuff that drains you, right? That requires radical responsibility. Because a lot of people squander away so much time, energy, and attention on things that literally do not move the needle, do not add value, and bring absolutely no energy to them. In fact, they siphon energy from them.

And until they take stock of what those things are and start to put something else in place of them by way of a ritual that is meaningful, something that feels good, something that adds value to your life, brings vibrancy and vitality, something that delivers energy, which ultimately increases productivity, efficiency, and effectiveness.

So, I’m big on this productivity, time management thing. I’m like, we’ve kind of had this all wrong all along. We’ve been thinking about things about, “How much can I habit stack and productivity hack my way to effectiveness and to efficiency?”

And in the long run, a lot of that way of being, which is oftentimes very autopilot, very reactionary, very routine, what that ends up doing is draining us of the very life force that we’re trying to get more of.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you give us some examples of some top things that people do a lot that we might be better off getting the scissors to and cutting right out?

Erin Coupe
Well, first of all, we talked a little bit about it, but the way we talk to ourselves, that’s a big one. In the book, I call it like tending to your inner garden, right, the garden in your mind. If you think about a garden, when weeds grow, what do they do?

They actually keep the nutrients from the flowers or the bushes or the trees that are trying to grow, right? So, we got to get rid of the weeds in our own minds so that the stuff we want to really feed can start to really take root and grow and we can feed those seeds and nurture them.

I would say, there’s a lot of stuff that people do. So, there’s like kind of, I’ll just call it like the top few that I’ve seen over the years, again, myself included. So, for me, it was a daily 5:30 glass of wine for a while, which just became an unconscious habit. I just thought I needed to take the edge off every day, you know, “Oh, just take the edge off.”

Well, a couple of years of that, why didn’t I check myself and say, “Well, why do I need to take the edge off? Edge off of what?” So, starting to be very responsible with myself around, “Why am I choosing that rather than just choosing to be present with my toddlers at the time, and just be in the moment?”

And I needed, instead, to escape or go elsewhere for just a little bit, which one glass of wine would do. But you know, that is a big thing that people do. Substances, of course, that’s a thing.

Netflix or TV every night. There’s nothing wrong with choosing something that is mindless to just let your mind kind of wander and just do nothing, but if you’re going straight from work into managing your household into just letting something like TV news, etc., social media, take over, where is the time with yourself?

Where is the time where you actually get to know what’s happening in your own mind? Where is the time that you actually sit in stillness or allow yourself to be maybe more meditative or more reflective or to journal, those kinds of things, right?

So that’s where a lot of people choose something to keep themselves busy, even though that might not be productive, per se. And then other things, gaming, gambling, stress eating, all that kind of stuff. Those are the major ones that people end up kind of choosing unconsciously.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and you talk in your book about autopilot, and I think that’s really eye opening because I’ve had this happen to myself in which I end up, you know, I’m clicking all over social media or the news or something. And it is, it’s just autopilot because you know it’s there. And I think if I actually stop and assess like, “What am I trying to get from this experience?”

And so, sometimes I could pinpoint it pretty precisely, it’s like, “Oh, what I want is to be utterly fascinated by something that engages the whole of my attention in an interesting, energizing way.” And every once in a while, social media will do that, it’s like, “Oh, my gosh. Wow, check this out. This is fascinating,” or, “Whoa, look at this article.” And so, every once in a while, that happens, but most of the time it doesn’t.

And so, you mentioned gaming, but I think that I actually have noticed that if I choose to do another activity, it can be recreational, but let’s say I’m going to do, I don’t know, a game like some chess puzzles or a Tetris battle, you know, it could be short, discrete, and accomplish that more reliably, and have an actually more clear exit ramp than, “Oh, this story goes on endlessly and links to many other questions” and delivers what I’m after with a better success rate and lower amount of time. And I feel better afterwards.

So, in terms of, and I like what you said. You could do something mindless but make it a winning mindless choice instead of just a default mindless choice.

Erin Coupe
I love how you framed that and it’s so true, because think about how you feel different after playing Sudoku, or doing a puzzle, or playing cards, or a board game with your family. Think about some of those things that you do versus getting sucked in where your energy is just siphoning away from you.

The mind is literally doing something different. All of the social media stuff is designed, very, very intentionally, to take from you. It’s why it’s free, you know? It’s just taking, taking, taking. Whereas, all these other things, you’re actually giving to yourself. You’re actually pulling energy back in because you’re using your mind in a completely different way that is more reflective and that is more intentional and conscious.

So, yeah, that default mode, look, we’re all going to do it, and it’s there for us anytime we want it, right? There’s no such thing as perfection here. But what this is about is realizing, like, look, if there are things in our lives that we want to go differently, or we want to create, or we want to get after, or we want to achieve, whatever that is, it’s up to us to make these shifts in our day-to-day where we start to feel better or feel different about the choices we make.

And I don’t know about you, but when I feel good energetically, when I’ve slept well, I’ve eaten well, I feel good about the work I’m doing, I feel good about how I’m showing up with my family, like how I’m showing up for myself, all those things, I am capable of so much more and I see way more possibility. And this is true for everybody I’ve worked with.

But when we are the opposite of that, when we’re just completely on autopilot, totally reactionary, I mean, I used to wake up going, “Ugh, another day,” you know, and I look back at that woman and think, “Geez, I can’t even believe that was the same person.”

But that’s the cycle I was in for so long where I just made all these choices that matched that energy. I came at life from that place and nothing ever felt like it was possible. Everything felt hard and heavy and distant, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, I’d love to get some of your perspective work with so many people. When it comes to some of these rituals, what are a few that have been super transformational? Like, a lot of people have found, by spending just a few minutes doing X, Y, or Z ritual, presents a tremendous return on the backside?

Erin Coupe
Yeah, so what I’m not big on is like join the 5:00 a.m. club. Like, this isn’t about a routine. However, what I will say is that people do find, when they give themselves, just themselves, a little time in the morning, they start to feel way different about their lives overall. So, it doesn’t mean it has to be 5:15 or 5:30 in the morning.

But think about, like, if you have children, what time are your kids up and moving? Where else are you alone in your day? Where else do you have time for just you with you? And this isn’t even just about like, “Okay, I’m going to go to the gym,” right, because even that, like you’re doing a different activity, which could be a ritual, it could be something that you’re intentionally putting in your life, very much so.

But where do you get time, just you with you, to set an intention for your day, to think about, “What do I want to feel today? How do I want to experience life today?” And making a choice, “Today I’m going to feel calm. Today I’m going to feel excited. Today I’m going to go into that meeting and I’m going to be this person because I know this is me and this is what I want, or I know that I’m capable of working with this client,” or whatever it is.

But setting an intention is really, really powerful because what it does, neuro-scientifically, it will prime your brain to actually notice that you are being that or feeling that, right? So that’s a really important thing that I see a lot of people do that is a game changer.

Pete Mockaitis
Setting an intention. So, what are the ABCs of pulling that off?

Erin Coupe
Literally, to tell yourself what you want to feel. It is very simple.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Like, in terms of in advance, like, “As I enter this conversation with Erin, I want to feel curious and positive and presence.” It’s like, “As I pick up my kids from school, I want to be optimistic and supportive and patient.”

Erin Coupe
And even, “I will be. I will be.”

Pete Mockaitis
“I will be.” Okay.

Erin Coupe
Yes, affirm to yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, by maybe visualizing myself, doing, feeling those things, or just saying some words.

Erin Coupe
You are more likely to experience those. If you tell yourself that that’s what you will feel, you are more likely to experience that in that moment. So that’s key.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m also thinking about, we had a Shirzad Chamine of Positive Intelligence, great app, great program. And he says that even the opposite is sort of true. We’re not setting an intention to be grumpy.

But you realize when you step in, “Okay, I’m about to step into a situation where it’s likely that I am going to experience some skepticism, some critiques, some, you know, squinty looks from folks who aren’t quite buying what I’m selling. “And that might make me feel self-conscious, defensive, whatever. My classic saboteurs might respond to that.”

So, just having a heads up, like, “Watch out. This is a thing that can happen. And, instead, I’m going to,” or, “I will feel or respond in these ways,” can be surprisingly very handy to not falling into the traps.

Erin Coupe
Yeah, well, what intention is, essentially, is momentum behind your actions. So, if you are not intentional, you are in a cycle of firefighting all the time, just putting out fires, right? You’re just reacting to everything around you. Instead of being the director or being in the driver’s seat, you’re sitting in the passenger seat. You’re just letting life happen to you instead of believing that it happens through you and for you.

So, these are two very different, again, distinctive mindsets, right? Coming at things from a place of, “This is what I intend and, therefore, it is more likely to happen,” versus, “I’m going to be completely unintentional and just absorb whatever comes at me and react to it as it does,” right? Like, very, very different forces, if you will.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Well, Erin, tell me, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Erin Coupe
You know, I feel like you asked me a little bit more about other rituals that people like to practice.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes, yes, please. Lay them on me.

Erin Coupe
And so, we talked about setting an intention. Another one that I like to mention is breath, I mean, the importance of breath. And not to sit here and teach breath work. But there’s a game changing technique called the 4-7-8 that I have used with hundreds and, at this point, probably thousands of people. And it literally does change the way that you respond, not react to life.

And so, we all have situations, right? We all have things that go on, whether it’s someone that cuts us off on the road, or we get an email from a client that’s not so nice, or our mom texts us something about our crazy brother in the middle of the workday, and it totally derails us or distracts us.

If you breathe in this certain way where you spend about 90 seconds focused on your breath, and you inhale for four seconds, you hold for seven, and you exhale for eight, and you do that on repeat, like six times, like it’s you at about 90 seconds, it is proven that 90 seconds is what it takes for an emotion to dissipate.

Now it doesn’t mean the situation goes away, but it means the emotion that was reacting within your body will start to calm down. And when that does, you can respond from that place. So, think about it, again, if you’ve got children, or if you’ve got some crazy partner, or a crazy neighbor, or whatever it is, something is going on and you just react to that, you’re more likely to spill fuel on the fire, right?

And things are probably going to be tense and stressful and emotional and all the things. Versus, if you can create a little bit of space, 90 seconds for yourself to just breathe through it before you choose a response, then you are going to be able to respond in a way that maybe you wouldn’t be as stressed out, maybe you wouldn’t cause as much tension, maybe you wouldn’t have as much aftermath to deal with from whatever that situation was and how you reacted to it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, let’s talk 4-7-8 breathing. So, Andrew Weil, I believe, is the popularizer of this. Whenever I watch his videos about this, he talks about my tongue placement and making a whoosh sound. Is that important, Erin?

Erin Coupe
No

Pete Mockaitis
Or is there anything to focus on, like my diaphragm, or just, hey, 4-7-8, it’s all good?

Erin Coupe
There is no right way to do this, just like with meditation. There’s no right way to meditate. Like, I’m very big on let’s remove a lot of the myths and just use what works. The reason this breathing technique works is that your mind is actually focused on the breath. It can’t focus on two things at once.

So, think about it. If you don’t focus on something when something triggering is happening, what is your mind going to focus on? The emotional reaction. That’s what it’s going to focus on. It’s going to think and think and think and overthink about that reaction to the emotion that it’s experiencing, versus allowing yourself to breathe through that experience will bring the energy down your body where the emotion will move through you. You will experience the emotion, but you won’t overthink it because you’re focused on something different.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you.

Erin Coupe
Yeah, you’re welcome.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Erin Coupe
Probably one of my favorites is that, “You don’t have to be great to get started. You just have to get started to be great.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very good. And a favorite experiment or study or piece of research?

Erin Coupe
One thing I’m very interested in is the stars, the universe, the planets, you name it. And there’s a guy named Gregg Braden who kind of calls himself a scientist turned, I forget, like spiritualist or something. But he explores kind of the metaphysical, kind of quantum mechanics side of things and how the universe works from a very human perspective.

He’s got, like, seven books, and I, very kind of slowly, dig through them. And I like to learn, I like the experiments that he works with in these.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Erin Coupe
Well, meditation. I’m an intuitive person and I’ve developed that intuition over time. So, one of the things I use is, before I say yes to working with a new client or yes to an opportunity, I meditate and I ask my intuition basically, “Does it serve me? Is it aligned with me? Am I meant to serve the people that I’m being asked to serve?” Those kinds of questions.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that folks really resonate with and will quote back to you often?

Erin Coupe
I would say, “You are the architect of your life” is something that I use a lot, and also, “Your well-being is a reflection of your mindset.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Erin Coupe
ErinCoupe.com, so that’s E-R-I-N-C-O-U-P-E.com. I am also at @authenticallyec on Instagram.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Erin Coupe
Rituals, not routines. Input rituals, fit in the things that matter most to you, and cut out the things that are draining you out of obligation or just autopilot routines.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Erin, thank you.

Erin Coupe
Thank you, Pete.

Jan 12
0

1119: Wikipedia’s Jimmy Wales Shares the Seven Rules of Trust

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Jimmy Wales reveals the foundational principles around trust that helped build Wikipedia.

You’ll Learn

  1. How trust helped Jimmy achieve 52X productivity
  2. The common assumptions that erode trust
  3. How our systems encourage mistrust

About Jimmy 

Jimmy Wales is the Cofounder of Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation. Named one of Time’s 100 Most Influential People, he has been recognized by the World Economic Forum for his contributions to the global public good. He lives with his family in London.

Resources Mentioned

Thank you, Sponsors!

  • Monarch.com. Get 50% off your first year on with the code AWESOME.

Jimmy Wales Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Jimmy, welcome!

Jimmy Wales
Hello. Nice to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to chat with you and get some insight into trust. That’s something we’re big into here, so why don’t we start with, could you tell us your story of how Wikipedia came to be? And I know we could do that for hours. So, let’s do the five to 10-ish minute version of that just so we can get situated in context and piggyback off of some things.

Jimmy Wales
So, I had the idea for a free open source, freely licensed encyclopedia, written by volunteers more than two years before starting Wikipedia, and I was very excited to get started. I thought it was such an obvious idea, lots of people would be doing something similar. So, I just got started. I didn’t really know what I was doing.

And went out and hired an editor in chief and we set up a seven-stage review process to get anything published. And, in retrospect, I realize now the entire system that we built just screamed, “We don’t trust you,” because that seven-stage process, you had to send in your CV to prove you were qualified, and then we would take your draft and send it out for review to the most prestigious professors we could find and so forth. We were being more academic than Britannica.

And I realized it wasn’t going to work when I thought, “Well, I could try to write an article about Robert Merton who had just recently won the Nobel Prize in Economics for his work on option pricing theory.” And in grad school, I had published a paper on option pricing theory, the mathematics of it, and so I knew his work very well.

And when I sat down to write, I had this enormous feeling of writer’s block because it was very intimidating. They were going to take my draft and send it to the most prestigious finance professors they could. I hadn’t been in academia for a few years at that time, so even though I was familiar with his work, it was a very scary thing to contemplate.

And that was when I realized, like, “Oh, this isn’t going to work. Like, it doesn’t feel good. It isn’t fun.” So, one of my employees, Jeremy, came to me and showed me the Wiki, the concept of Wiki, which had been around for several years. So, a Wiki is just a website anyone can edit. And the word Wiki comes from a Hawaiian word wiki-wiki, which means quick. So quick collaboration is the concept.

And so, a Wiki is a website where you can just quickly write and share and so on, which was pretty radical. I mean, these days we have Google Docs and everything else so it doesn’t seem as radical but that wasn’t really a thing back then. And it worked. Within two weeks, we had more work done than we had in almost two years. It was really quick.

Pete Mockaitis
52x, there you go.

Jimmy Wales
Yeah, because we had this community that had grown up for two years, and we had the mailing list, and we had spent two years talking about an encyclopedia, talking about how to build it, what it should be like, neutrality, all of the kind of values of Wikipedia. But we had created a system that didn’t trust people and, therefore, didn’t make any progress.

People were very intimidated, it wasn’t very fun, so even though people liked the idea, it didn’t really move forward. But that act of opening up and just saying, “Okay look, everybody just come and write. We’ll figure out as we go along. We’ll need to…” Well, in the early days, I assumed we were going to need to assign someone to be the editor-in-chief of the, I don’t know, the American history section. And I still had a top-down mentality in the early days.

But after a short period of time, it was like, “Oh, that doesn’t seem to be in any way necessary or even useful to have someone like that.” In fact, the community looks after each other and monitors each other, and so on and so forth. So, the whole journey there was really about realizing, like, you can trust people and that’s the way to make progress.

Pete Mockaitis
This is fascinating stuff and, boy, from seven stages of approval to seven rules of trust, that’s kind of a fun little parallelism there.

Jimmy Wales
Yeah, the other day, I never thought of this, somebody the other day said to me, “Oh, so the first system was like the seven rules of mistrust.” I said, “Oh, yeah, I didn’t think of it that way, but that’s actually quite good.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so your book is called The Seven Rules of Trust. I’d love to hear, any particularly surprising or fascinating discoveries you’ve made about human beings and trust along your journey or in putting together this book?

Jimmy Wales
I think there’s a lot really. I think one of the keys is, I think, it’s rule four in the book, is give trust to get trust, that by being trusting, then people will trust you. And I think that’s a little counterintuitive or a little surprising to people, although it actually isn’t, I think, once you really think about it.

If you think about how you conduct yourself in relationships and things like that, if you approach someone and you trust them and you make it clear that you’re trusting them, they’re very likely to reciprocate because humans are like that. People are very pro-social and they like that kind of environment.

So, in a workplace, the kind of manager who trusts the employees to get the work done tends to be rewarded with employees who are trustworthy and who work to get the work done because they’re like, they appreciate that. And if you approach the employees with a really, like, an aggressive sense of mistrust, well, they’re probably just going to work to rule at best. They’re not going to trust you in return. They’re going to say, “This person is really being a jerk.”

You see these stories from time to time, sort of post-pandemic stories about people working from home, and then some kind of software installed on your work computer to monitor whether you’re at your keyboard or not. And I’m like, “Man, quit that job. That is so toxic. Like, that’s completely absurd.”

And, actually, if you want employees to give it their best, the best way to get that out of people is to say, “Yeah, you’re to work from home? You know, we’ve got a lot of work to get done. That’s the important thing. Organize your day as you see fit. If you’re away from your computer, give me some time back later. Let’s be flexible. Let’s be trusting of each other.”

And I think people really respond well to that. And they respond the opposite way when you show them mistrust.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, that really does resonate. And I’ve had that in my own experience. I heard a fun turn of a phrase. I believe it’s a malicious obedience or malicious compliance.

Jimmy Wales
Yeah, malicious compliance. Yes, I’ve heard that.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s like, you know, you say they work to the rules, like, “Oh, this is a rule, huh? Okay. Well, I’m annoyed and irritated with you, and this is the rule. And I know this is going to cause a little bit of trouble, but I kind of like that. I’m taking some gleeful delight in obeying the rule but causing a little bit of trouble, like, ‘Well, I’m just doing what I was supposed to.’” And, yeah, that’s not what we’re going for.

Jimmy Wales
Yeah, totally. Totally. And so, it’s a healthier way to live, among other things.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, you mentioned one of the rules. I’d love it if we could, in fact, have perhaps a one-ish minute overview of each of the rules and then we’ll dig in a little bit from there.

Jimmy Wales
Sure. Well, I mean, I don’t necessarily have them all memorized in order, but I can do my best, or maybe we just start digging in.

Pete Mockaitis
I have your table of contents up.

Jimmy Wales
Oh, that’s cheating, you know. So, I’d say the first rule, “Make it personal.” And so, the idea here is that trust is won and lost in an individual human mind. And so, there’s a lot of different things I mean by that, but in particular, it’s about empathy, like thinking about that other person, thinking about, “What do they need from me in this situation? What will help them to trust me that I’m going to do the things I say I’m going to do?”

And it’s an encouragement that we maybe not think too much about statistical measures and playing the numbers. Certainly, because I come from the consumer internet world, there’s a lot of emphasis placed on A-B testing. You A-B test and you see, “Which of these two patterns gets us a higher checkout rate at the end of the visit to the website?”

Okay, that’s valid. I’m not saying don’t use A-B testing. A-B testing is super valid. But layered on top of that, you also have to say, “But how is somebody going to feel when they get through this? Are they going to feel like this is a great relationship, like we’re a good company to do businesses with? Or, are they going to feel like, ‘Oh, my god, this is a nightmare,’” even if you somehow got them to the checkout.

And where you really see this a lot of times is when you try to unsubscribe from something, there are so many dark patterns there, which I’m sure if all you do is A-B testing, you say, “Yeah, look, if we do it this way, make it clear, obvious, honest, simple, for people to say cancel their subscription, then when people start down that path, even though we give them some reasons along the way and we offer them a discount, we make it easy and 40% of them still quit.”

“If we send them in an endless loop and then force them to call us on a phone later, then only 3% quit.” And you think, “Oh, great, well, we’re going to do the difficult way.” No, you’ve just undermined trust. You’ve just undermined any chance of ever getting that customer back. You’ve undermined your reputation, the word of mouth. I mean, it’s just super toxic.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, they’ll hop on Reddit, trash you.

Jimmy Wales
Yeah, people go crazy about that kind of stuff. I mean, I personally just can’t stand it, and I sort of have my own internal blacklist of companies I’m never going to deal with again. And so, that’s the kind of thing where, you know, don’t just look at the numbers. Like, make it personal. Make it personal. So, be positive about people, so assume good faith is a classic Wikipedia rule.

I’ve talked about this a little bit already, that under rule four be trusting but here, you know, it’s like it’s a good bet if you meet somebody, and whatever they’re doing, they’re probably a decent person. If you meet a thousand people, 990 of them are going to be fantastic people. Probably nine of them are going to be annoying, but they’re still not malicious. They’re just like annoying people. And then maybe one in a thousand is somehow actually being malicious.

And so, it’s a very small number of people. And so, being positive about people and designing whatever your process is or your life or whatever around that premise of saying, “Oh, look, I’m just going to assume most people are going to be good. They’re going to do the right thing,” that actually works really, really well. And then we talk in rule four about the reciprocity piece of that. One of the reasons it works really well is because people like to reciprocate that.

Rule three, create a clear purpose. That one’s fantastic. So, this, really, when people say, “What do you think is the one rule of trust that has been really instrumental to the success of Wikipedia?” And I would say it’s this. Wikipedia, the goal of Wikipedia is a free, neutral, high-quality encyclopedia, and that’s what we’re here to do, and that defines everything about everything that we do.”

And what does that mean? It means when we come to decisions, we’ve got a North Star, something to guide us, we know what it is that we’re trying to do, we have a good purpose, and we’re able to follow that purpose. And it gives everybody an organizing theme. And a lot of times, people don’t sense that kind of clear purpose. And they’re not really sure what the point is of what they’re doing.

And, frankly, this is, I believe, one of the problems with a lot of social media is because the company’s purpose is, frankly, it’s just show as many ads as possible and get as many clicks on ads. And if that’s their core purpose, they lose sight of a lot of things about what users really want to need out of a social media platform. And they, instead, optimize for addiction, outrage, clickbait, etc., which, as we know, is pretty toxic and not very healthy.

And so, having that clear, good purpose is really important for success. Skipping four, because we did four already, rule five, I think this chapter is titled something like, “Your Mother Was Right,” and this is about be civil. Be nice, be kind to other people. Disagree respectfully. You focus on ideas. No personal attacks, is one of the core rules of Wikipedia. It’s just useless. It violates our purpose, which is to write an encyclopedia. And it isn’t practical.

And, obviously, we see this in all kinds of ways, in all kinds of places, in all kinds of businesses, that being nice to other people is actually a fantastic way to get things done because people are like, “Oh, yeah, this is a nice person. This is great. I’m going to do what I can to further this. It’s a relationship with this person or with this business that I like, and I’m going to cherish that.”

Be independent. So, this is, maintain freedom from undue influence to build credibility. In this case, the Wikipedia reference I would get is we’re not funded by governments, so governments have no influence over what we say and what we do. We aren’t funded by a handful of billionaires or one billionaire. I mean, you can imagine how that might end in tears. We’re funded almost exclusively by the small donors. The average donation of Wikipedia is just over $10. But we do have some…

Pete Mockaitis
I’ve seen your messages, Jimmy.

Jimmy Wales
Oh, yeah, you’ve seen the messages, yeah. And this is why it’s really important. It’s important for our intellectual independence that we have the ability to say, “You can come and offer Wikipedia a million dollars to change an article, and we’re just going to go like, ‘Sorry, that’s not what we do. We’re not desperate with that.’”

And the way it normally happens, it wouldn’t be that blunt or brutal. It would be, if we had one major donor who is funding 80% of our budget all the time, then, wow, you would have to really listen to that one donor, and you would really have to kind of worry about what they think about the content of the articles and things like that, in a way that I think could easily be unhealthy.

As opposed to we have to worry about what the general public thinks, that everybody thinks, and we need to appeal to the widest possible audience so that everybody can go, “You know what, that Wikipedia is a great thing. I love it. I should chip in.” And so, that independence is part of why people trust us.

When you’re reading Wikipedia, you know, for example, that no government can force us to change an article. And they’ve tried. We were banned in Turkey for three years and we fought all the way to the Supreme Court in Turkey and won. Meanwhile, for three years, we were blocked in Turkey and we didn’t give in. And that’s kind of just we’re very principled. We’re very independent in that way. Because for us, that value of independence, that intellectual independence is really core to our whole mission. We have to fight for that.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’d love to comment on that. I think it’s so wise and true that we should take a look at that. And, you know, I don’t think it’s conspiratorial to just assume that when there’s a substantial flow of money from a concentrated source, whether it’s an industry or an individual, that will influence the editorial choices of something.

So, for like TV news, I mean, I’ve noticed a pattern of who tends to advertise a lot on TV news, and I don’t want to, you know, be a tinfoil hat conspiracy person, but I got to imagine that has an impact on what stories they choose to pursue and which ones they don’t. I will tell you, I have, you know, a couple major customers, and when I’m getting pitches, that say, “Oh, hey, we’re going to totally make fun of one of your major customers. Would that be sort of a fun little episode?’

It’s like, “Well, maybe,” but I already don’t want to do that. I mean, I also don’t think it’s valuable, but I will admit, like, my financial influence is impacting what I choose to do, at least a little.

Jimmy Wales
Yeah, that financial influence over the content. Now there are ways around that. I used to be on the board of The Guardian newspaper here in the UK, and that’s a really interesting structure because The Guardian is owned by a non-profit trust.

I was on the commercial board, so the operating company that actually runs The Guardian, but the editor-in-chief of the newspaper is hired by the other board, by The Scott Trust, by the non-profit board, and we, you know, the commercial board, had no authority to fire the editor-in-chief or to change any editorial policies.

And so, that was a really strong firewall, backed up by the legal structure, there just wasn’t any way. Now that doesn’t mean that the editor-in-chief completely doesn’t care about the commercial situation. They have to. I mean, newspapers are in dire straits and all of that. But I kind of like that, that sort of independence. And so, when we say be independent, that doesn’t necessarily mean, “Oh, well, anything done for money is bad because it’s all going to be corrupt.” I don’t believe that.

But I do believe that there is that potential, right? Then you do have to think about, “Okay, how do we design this situation so that it’s quite clear that, you know, our…” A typical kind of example, like Google has always been good about maintaining the independence of the search results from the ads. So, you can pay money and get to the top by paying for an ad, and it’s clearly marked as an ad.

Or, I mean, good luck, like the algorithm is the algorithm, and they don’t really, you know, and they keep those teams very separate and they’re quite ideological about that, and I’m glad, and I think they should be. If they started to break down and say, “Well, actually, we’ve decided that in our organic search results, we’re going to start favoring our biggest partners,” I think they would lose a lot of trust, and I think that would be damaging to them in the long run.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, well said. So, that’s independence. What’s next?

Jimmy Wales
So, the seventh rule is be transparent, and this one’s kind of obvious. I mean, I think it’s one of the things people first think of when you say what makes an organization more trustworthy. And one of things you say is, “Yeah, transparency. Like, I want to understand how it all works, how are decisions made.”

I’ve been encouraging the news media, and there’s a lot of proposals out there, not just from me, from lots of people, and I’m like pointing at those, and going, “Yeah, that’s a good idea,” which is, when you’re writing a story, don’t just adopt that voice of God, voice of the New York Times, “We’re going to tell you like it is. You can trust us. We’re the New York Times.”

You need to show your work. You need to tell us who you interviewed. You need to tell us all the details of the story. If you’ve got multiple sources, you need to talk about that. If there is a source, I mean, this is my personal pet peeve, and some organizations are better than others about this, it’s like, “Okay, there’s a Supreme Court case, okay, it just came out yesterday.” I’m just making this up, but just hypothetically.

And I’m like, “Ooh,” and I see a headline, like, “Ooh, that sounds like an important Supreme Court decision. I’m really interested in that.” And it’s so annoying, it’s like, “Oh, here’s their interpretation. Ah, this will destroy democracy,” or, “Finally, this decision will save democracy.”

And it’s like, “Yeah, but you didn’t link to it. Like, how do I, you know?” Like, now it’s super irritating. Now, it’s not like they’re hiding it from me. I can then go off and Google and find it myself. But that’s like a little small thing of like, “Hmm, if you really believed your interpretation was accurate, wouldn’t you link straight to it and link straight to the quote that would prove what you’re saying?” And that’s the kind of transparency that I think would help to build trust in news and other types of publications.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I feel the same way in terms of, because in some ways reporting on a news article can be endless. Like, there are so many people you could talk to, so many rocks you could overturn. But when the story is about a document, or a book, a Supreme Court decision, or a court ruling elsewhere, it feels to me, and maybe it’s just too high a standard, that the bare minimum is, “Did you read the thing that you’re reporting about?” because that’s really kind of finite and approachable, assuming it’s not thousands of pages and all that.

So, yes, I’m with you in showing the work. And I’d also love to get your take on, in some ways, some of these things feel commonsensical, although not always common practice for sure, are there any kind of hidden, mysterious, easily overlooked ways you think that professionals are losing trust, they’re just squandering it, and they don’t even know it?

Jimmy Wales
I think one of the things that we know, just looking at the data, is that there has been a significant decline in trust across most of the world, decline in trust in journalism, politics, business, to some extent to trust in each other, and that this is having some negative impact in society.

One of the examples that we talk about in the book, the question of masks in the pandemic. And, basically, we quote health authorities very early when the pandemic, when the news first started to break, and they basically said, “Don’t bother with masks. Please don’t rush out and buy a lot of masks.”

They gave two reasons. One, they really need it in the hospitals, and, two, they don’t really do any good for you at home anyway. But then, a month later, everybody’s like, “It’s mandatory. You must wear a mask every time you’re outside,” right? And so, suddenly, “When you go out of your house and you’re in any public place, you must wear a mask.”

Well, like that flip-flop caused a lot of people to lose trust. And, in fact, one of the reasons they first said don’t bother with masks is they didn’t trust the public to follow that first warning. They were afraid people were going to panic and buy up all the masks, there’d be a mask shortage in hospitals. And it’s like, no, trust the public, say, “Actually masks are effective if worn properly, etc.”

And at the end of the day, where I get to on masks is like a proper N95 mask, worn properly, by a professional in a hospital setting, they are effective at reducing transmission. I live in London and the number of people who are riding the Tube in London, very crowded, with their masks half-ass on, half-ass off, “Hey, was that really helping? I’m not so sure.”

And that’s what the data seems to suggest, it’s like, “Yeah, good strong effect in hospitals, less so elsewhere.” So, where do you get to on that? That’s a complicated question. But my point here is really about that failure to trust the public resulted in a loss of trust. And I think an example of this, you could also look at a lot of environmentalists who have lost trust by over-hyping concerns.

They don’t trust that the public will believe that there is a problem unless they make it sound worse than it actually is. And then when that’s found out, I remember once there were some emails leaked that were quite, it’s like, “Oh, that’s really awkward. Like, you’re really talking about how to make a scaremongering story, and you’re a scientist. Like, you’re not trusting the public to be straight with them.”

And if you believe, and I think they do believe and I think they’re probably right, like if you’re really straight about climate change, it’s a serious issue and we need to really do something about it. And the best way to convince people of that is not to over-egg the case and create scare stories but to be straight, and say, “Well, look, here’s the problem, here are some mitigations, here’s the most likely scenario, here are some worse scenarios, here are some better scenarios.”

Because I think people just do respond to that and they then trust the scientists. And I think if people feel like, “Oh, the scientists have become politicized,” then they’re less trusting.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m thinking about just the notion of, as humans, we like certainty and we like our experts, our authorities to just say with clarity and confidence, “This is the thing.” Like, “Oh, okay, that guy really seems confident. I guess I should follow that.” And yet, like, the science suggests that there’s very little relationship between the confidence with which someone asserts something and the truthiness of that something.

And yet, if someone’s coming out, it’s like, “Well, you know what, here’s what we know. Here’s what we don’t know. Most likely it’s probably like that.” That nuanced balanced, hear the uncertain elements, kind of a presentation, over time I’ve come to appreciate that person more. It’s like, “Okay, I feel like it’s more likely they’re telling me the truth. And so, I should latch onto that.” But it seems that the masses go like, “Oh, this guy doesn’t know Jack. Let’s go to someone else who has more confidence.”

Jimmy Wales
Yeah, but you know what, I think the evidence shows the opposite. I think the evidence shows that the mass public doesn’t trust people just because they’re overconfident. And, in fact, that, oftentimes, they see right through it and they see this is a blowhard who’s blowing smoke. And sometimes they don’t care because they don’t trust anybody.

But I think it’s sort of, like, you can get some headway in the short run maybe by doing that, but you’ll be found out pretty quickly because people, I mean, like I trust, like people aren’t stupid, people can see, like, “Oh, actually, you made these claims, but they seem overstated to me. And then I looked into it for five minutes and I’m like, yeah, overstated. And now I don’t trust you.” So, it’s an interesting thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Maybe that gets back to that dark pattern example, in terms of, yeah, that might get you the short-term results of the thing, like, you don’t cancel your subscription or you go, “Wow, check out this YouTuber. Let me forward and share their hot take. They’re fired up.” And then afterwards, you go, “Ooh, actually, oops. Hmm, maybe not so much that person.”

Jimmy Wales
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, like one of my favorite examples of this is Netflix in the olden days, when Netflix was all about sending you DVDs in the mail. And I think everybody before that, and I’m showing how old I am, but it was a super toxic issue. You go to Blockbuster and then you would return your movie late, and you’ll get these massive penalties.

And, heaven forbid, like the worst thing that could happen to you is you’re cleaning your apartment, and under the sofa, you find, “Oh, yikes here’s a blockbuster tape. How long has that been under there?” And now you’ve got like, basically, the fine is so high, you’ve just bought the tape. It’s $80 or something, and you’re like, “Oh, my God, this is terrible.”

And then when I first heard about Netflix, I’m like, “Oh, that’s going to make me nervous, having three out and you’ve got to send them back, and what if I lose one?” “You can keep it as long as you want it.” “Oh, there’s no late fees?” “Yeah, no, just take three, you can have three. When you send one back, you can get another one.” “What if I lose it?” “Just tell us and we’ll send you another one. Like, that’s it. Nothing bad’s going to happen. Like, we trust you that you’re not scamming us.”

Obviously, if you report, I don’t know what their limit was, but probably after about five lost DVDs, they’re going to go, “You know what, actually, you’re losing too many, so we’re going to cut you off.” But broadly, they were just like, “Yeah, we think most people are going to be honest. Nobody likes a late fee. Have three out as long as you want. And if you lose one, just let us know and we’ll replace it. No problem.”

Wow, like I feel seen, I feel trusted. And that was a big part of why they succeeded, even though sort of ordering DVDs by mail was less convenient than sort of popping by Blockbuster on the corner.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, it is. It is a good feeling. And I think that, in a way, that’s one of the trickiest potential root causes of this stuff is that there are some things that are very easy to measure, like the behavior that I desire. And then there are other things that are much harder to measure, “How much folks are trusting us and digging our vibe as a brand, as a professional?”

Jimmy Wales
Yeah, definitely.

Pete Mockaitis
And the former is easy to measure, the latter is hard to measure, and so we may optimize for the former at our own expense.

Jimmy Wales
Yeah, and that’s exactly it. So, there’s a very famous management research paper that, everybody learns about in grad school, on the folly of rewarding A while hoping for B. And one of the reasons people reward A while hoping for B is that A is easy to measure. And so, then you reward A, but frankly, then everybody starts to care about A, because that’s what they’re going to care for.

And if A can come at the expense of B, fine, that’s what people will do, because you’ve signaled very strongly. And so, sometimes, you’ve got to have a little more discretion and a little more sort of judgment around these things, which only really works if you’ve got a culture of trust, which is to say, your bonus as a salesperson.

“Your bonus is going to be based on sales, but also this kind of indefinable thing of your customers, how happy are they, are you building the right relationships. Maybe you haven’t closed as many deals as somebody else, but you’ve built relationships, so a part of your bonus is going to be, like, you’re building the base for future.” Okay, how do you judge that?

Well, you’re going to have to trust, and we have to have a culture of trust where I’m trusting you to do all right things, and we’re going to succeed together more if that’s our attitude, if that’s our team attitude of like, “Okay, yeah, of course, we’re a sales team, we got to make the sales, we got to make the numbers, but we’re not overly obsessed with the numbers at the expense of thinking about how do we build the broader growth of our customer base and things like that, even if we’re doing some activities that aren’t going to result in sales this quarter.”

Pete Mockaitis
And this reminds me that my first home purchase was through a Redfin agent, and he informed me that a substantial piece of their compensation is all about the reviews, like what we have to say about the agent. Whereas, if you think about real estate, it’s all about, “Hey, how many deals can be closed and at what price, and get the percentage and move, move, move?” And so, it was a different game. And, sure enough, I was having a different experience in terms of, “Wow, this guy, Michael Linden.”

Jimmy Wales
That’s great. I didn’t know about that. I’m going to read up on that. That’s quite interesting.

Pete Mockaitis
“Michael Linden is really over-delivering. He gave me a ride in the rain one time. This guy rocks.” And that was a pretty cool first-time experience. Well, Jimmy, we’re coming up on time. Tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear, rapid fire, about some of your favorite things?

Jimmy Wales
I know, I mean, it’s an exciting time. I’ve been super busy promoting the book, and I’d appreciate it if anybody thinks it sounds interesting, if you take a look. And it’s going to be a fun year for me because we’ve sold the book in 20 languages. So, I’m planning to travel all over the world this year, talking to people about the book. So, yeah, great.

Pete Mockaitis
Could you share a favorite study or experiment or piece of research?

Jimmy Wales
I think my favorite one from the book, and it just comes to mind because I nearly talked about it already, is research that showed that when newspapers endorse political candidates, it not only reduces trust with the people who disagree with the endorsement, they also lose trust among people who agree with the endorsement because now they feel like maybe the paper is always just shilling for their candidate. And I thought that was super interesting. Actually, one of the more optimistic things is like, “Oh, yeah, people are pretty sharp.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Jimmy Wales
One of the books that was really transformative, and I’m thinking because this is How to be Awesome at Your Job, Stephen Covey’s The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. That’s probably why I settled on “The Seven Rules of Trust,” I just like the seven thing.

But that book really taught me a lot and had a big impact on me at a point in my career when I needed to be effective, highly effective. So, I love that book.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool?

Jimmy Wales
My favorite tool right now is local LLMs, which I’m using for all kinds of fun projects and experiments and things like that, so, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s so intriguing and we could have a whole other episode about this. But, if I may, can you tell me what is a local model you’re digging and a piece of hardware that folks would need if they’re going to embark down this route?

Jimmy Wales
Yeah, so I’m digging GPT OSS 120B.

Pete Mockaitis
Classic.

Jimmy Wales
So, this is the latest model, free model released by OpenAI, which has gotten a lot of criticism for not releasing very much. And I bought the most expensive laptop I ever even thought of buying in my life, which is the M4 Max MacBook with 128 Gig of RAM, which can run that model quite well. It’s fast and it runs it really well, and it’s quite a smart model.

I’d say just one step behind, not a half step, a full step behind the cutting edge models in the cloud. But it’s really impressive what you can do on a local computer. And I actually think, looking forward for the next several years, there’s going to be an enormous growth and demand for compute on local computers because it’s so possible to do such amazing things that everybody’s going to want it. So, I think that’s a big thing that’s going to happen.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, you hear quoted back to you often?

Jimmy Wales
My signature quote, I guess, is, imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge. That one puts a spark in people’s eye because they’re like, “Yeah, that’s what the internet should be about. Give everybody access to free knowledge. That’s fantastic.” And obviously that’s the goal of Wikipedia.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jimmy Wales
So, I’ve got a little pilot project called Trust Cafe, TrustCafe.io. It’s a social network, but it’s very much a work in progress. I’ve just got a couple of developers working on it, a small community. I haven’t really promoted it that much. I mention it from time to time, and I’m on there. You can come and say hi to me.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jimmy Wales
I would say, take a trust inventory. So, think about all the different aspects of your work life, your home life, all of that. Think about, “What are the things that I could do to help people trust me? And what are the things I can do to encourage other people to be trustworthy?” because I think it will pay huge dividends.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Jimmy, thank you.

Jimmy Wales
Great. Thank you.