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Oct 03
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999: How Perfectionism Holds Us Back–and What to Do About It with Dr. Greg Chasson

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Dr. Greg Chasson reveals the double-edged nature of perfectionism—and provides expert strategies for managing it.

You’ll Learn

  1. How perfectionism differs from high standards
  2. How inefficiency can make you more effective 
  3. How to deal with another perfectionist at work 

About Greg

Dr. Greg Chasson is a licensed clinical psychologist, board-certified cognitive-behavioral therapist, Associate Professor, and the Director of Behavioral Interventions of the Obsessive-Compulsive and Related Disorders Clinic in the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Neuroscience at the University of Chicago. Over the past two decades, Dr. Chasson has provided cognitive-behavioral therapy for clinically severe perfectionism and has owned and operated two mental health practices.

As an active scholar, Dr. Chasson has authored or co-authored more than 70 scientific publications and one academic book (Hoarding Disorder: Advances in Psychotherapy – Evidence-Based Practice). He also serves as the editor of the scientific journal and the behavior therapist, and he has served on the board of directors for a variety of professional non-profit organizations.

Resources Mentioned

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Greg Chasson Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Greg, welcome!

Greg Chasson
Thank you. I’m excited to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m so excited to hear about some of the wisdom you’ve got for us in your book, Flawed: Why Perfectionism is a Challenge for Management. But first, I think we need to hear a demonstration of your beatboxing skills and a segue for how that relates to perfectionism. No pressure.

Greg Chasson
Well, I think it relates to perfectionism in that I stink pretty badly at beatboxing, so it’s a bit testing my perfectionism at heart. Are you really putting me on the spot for this one?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I mean, I’m curious.

Greg Chasson
All right, I am warning everyone, it is not amazing, but here we go. I don’t know how good that sounds on a podcast, but there you go.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m fired up. I kind of want to hear the other lyrics that are kind of getting integrated from there.

Greg Chasson
Yeah, I’m not Rahzel by any stretch of the imagination, so.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think you said something there, and I think it’s my own experience, is that it could feel good or even therapeutic for me to do something I’m terrible at and feel okay about being terrible at it in terms of my own relationship to perfectionism. Is that a common thing?

Greg Chasson
Absolutely. It’s a tremendous exercise and it’s something that I think there’s a spectrum of it. You can do things in a goofy silly way, getting on the dance floor, and just being a total goofball and not really caring, or if you do care, doing it anyway, how badly you’re dancing. You can take those principles to a place like work and, I like to say, make mistakes on purpose.

And that is part of the way that I approach perfectionism based on some of the research literature and the treatments that we do for people with really severe cases. But the principles also can really trickle down and be useful for people that are experiencing some levels of perfectionism that might not reach that severe level but still has an impact on their life.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s cool. And it’s interesting, Greg, when you say severe cases, I think a lot folks will say, “Oh, I’m such a perfectionist.” Could you paint a picture for what a severe case of perfectionism really looks, sounds, feels like in practice?

Greg Chasson
I’m really glad you asked that question because a lot of people don’t really understand what perfectionism is. They sometimes even think it’s a good thing or kind of a cute thing. They might even answer their interview question, “What’s your greatest weakness?” they might say, “Perfectionism.” And, truly, when you see some of the most severe cases, it will change your perspective on what perfectionism is.

I run a clinic at the University of Chicago for behavior therapy for OCD and related conditions. Now, real quick, not all people with OCD have perfectionism, and not all people with perfectionistic tendencies have OCD. So that’s an important distinction. There’s a nice Venn diagram overlap there, and that’s why I see a ton of cases of perfectionism at the severe level. Because when it gets severe, it becomes paralyzing.

People can’t get their work done, their procrastination becomes profound, they’re constantly checking and rechecking and seeking reassurance, thereby sucking in everyone around them, causing resentment and frustrations. So, it really can become very toxic and debilitating to the point where people can’t even get through college or hold down a job.

Pete Mockaitis
My goodness. Okay, so then let’s talk about that Venn diagram overlap between obsessive compulsive disorder and perfectionism. I guess I could see a little bit because when I imagine OCD, I think about, it’s like, I have to triple check, quadruple check, “Did I turn off the oven?” or “Have I arranged these things in just the right way?” or “I just have a feeling, I may know it’s not rational, but if I don’t lock this four times, something terrible might happen.” So that’s what I think of as OCD.

And you could tell me, you’re the expert if that’s an accurate picture of it. And then perfectionism seems, I could see a bit of that overlap in terms of, “Oh, I need to make sure this is just so, or I have a great deal of anxiety about it not being so.”

Greg Chasson
Yeah, you characterized OCD very well. And, really, OCD is defined by two things: obsessions and compulsions, which is inherent to the name. Obsessions are just thoughts, images, or impulses that pop in your head. They feel really alien to you. They feel like they’re trespassing. They’re inconsistent with how you see yourself, your sense of self, your values. And so, in that sense, they’re very distressing, and because of that distress, people do things to try to bring that distress level down. They try to calm themselves and get relief. Those are the compulsions, which I call safety behaviors and lump them into one giant category of compulsions and avoidance and escape behaviors.

These behaviors are done with a function of calming yourself because of your obsessions. And so, when you look at perfectionism, you can see overlap with OCD in the cases in which people are having these intrusive thoughts about needing to do things just right, in just the right way, or getting a just right feeling where it needs to feel just right, or they worry that they’re going to get something wrong even though they know it’s not that important or that they did it correctly, that they’re worried about it anyway and they’re almost obsessing about it.

And when it really feels excessive and inconsistent with what you want to be thinking about and doing, and it’s causing you to do all of these compulsive behaviors, like checking and reassurance-seeking and internet researching, and it really can look a lot like OCD.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. So, I think you’ve painted a picture for what a maybe severe or clinical kind of picture looks like. I don’t know how you define it in terms of a continuum or spectrum in terms of, I think some would like to say, “I’m perfectionistic and it’s a good thing…” but I guess they would define that differently, “…because I have a high standard of excellence and I demand it from myself and from others.” Can you help draw a real clear distinction or guideline for, “Okay, yeah, that’s cool, but here’s where that’s problematic and/or dysfunctional”?

Greg Chasson
So, I think it’s an excellent question, “How do you draw the line?” And I think it’s important to note that perfectionism is not the same thing as high standards or high expectations. Perfectionism is characterized by two primary things. One is excessive expectations. So, these are expectations that most people would find to be beyond what is reasonable or is feasible.

The second piece is that you have a certain level of rigidity to your thinking. You have a hard time being flexible and shifting your gears and moving from one thing to another and being nimble and adapting, and other synonyms that I can’t think of in the moment.

But the idea is that you have those two things together and it’s a really, really problematic recipe, because you have people who are just continuously trying to reach for things that are not feasible, maybe even impossible, and they have a hard time shifting gears when the feedback is telling them, “Look, this is not possible.”

And so, they’re just constantly hitting their head against the wall like a hamster on a wheel. And it’s really very different than having high expectations because high expectations, in and of themselves, are perfectly fine. I would never tell someone not to have high expectations. It’s really the rigidity around it, and then are those expectations unreasonable and infeasible?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I like that definition a lot in terms of that combination, because you may very well be trying to do something cool, innovative, never before done, and it’s like, “This may very well be impossible, but we know that going in, and if we discover that it’s impossible, we’re not going to flip out about it. We’re just going to say, ‘Oh, shucks. I guess the way we were pursuing that just isn’t going to work. We’re going to have to try something very different in order to pull off this never-before-accomplished thing we’re after here.’”

Greg Chasson
Totally. And so, what you’re describing is the very essence of innovation and risk-taking, and I think perfectionism stifles that more than just about anything. It really puts a dead stop to creativity and innovation and smart risk-taking. In fact, when I give talks to organizations and groups, or even patients, who are struggling, they really struggle with this sort of term that’s been floated out there called “fail forward.” The idea of, “It’s okay to fail. Take those failures and grow from them, do it quickly, and do it a lot, and move forward, and learn from it.”

The problem is, I’ve learned, that nobody knows what “fail forward” means in terms of how to implement it. No one knows what to do in order to fail forward. They get the concept, but it feels almost like a hollow cliche because there’s no framework. So, I think I’ve drawn on from a lot of the perfectionism research literature and some of my clinical work to really develop, I think, the foundation of a fail-forward framework that just hasn’t been explicated yet.

Pete Mockaitis
Intriguing. Well, we must hear that. But first, maybe just to continue getting the context. In your book, Flawed, could you give us sort of the big picture, main idea?

Greg Chasson
The book’s main idea is pretty simple. Perfectionism is not your friend, and it’s not great for your business. It’s not great for your teams. It’s not great for the bottom line. It’s not even great for the culture in which your teams are working. It really has an adverse impact on all of those things, and it’s not to be underestimated. I think we don’t really keep a great eye out for it. And, in some ways, I think the culture and the company environment and the messaging reinforces perfectionism instead of tries to reduce it and open the floor for innovation and creativity.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, then it’s not just an individual problem, but rather it’s a problem across the whole organization, workplace management. Could you maybe paint a picture for how you see that showing up frequently, or if there’s any numbers on just how pervasive and damaging this is to kind of get our arms around the problem?

Greg Chasson
I don’t have data on perfectionism in the workplace, but I can tell you that perfectionism in the population at large is increasing over the generations. So, we’re seeing this increase, I think, it’s in large part because of the achievement culture that has kind of sucked us all in even from childhood. And I think we see some of that extend into the company culture, and the sort of mentality give it your all.

And there’s this fear of making mistakes and not doing your work properly and costing the company, something like costing them money or costing them reputation, and then really worrying about your own status at the company, “Am I going to get fired? Am I going to be seen in a negative light?” And so, there really is a messaging that you can use in your workplace that I think allows people to feel a little bit more open to taking those risks and to making mistakes instead of, essentially, being closed off to those opportunities.

Think of a marketing team with a sales team, and they’re basically creating a whiteboard of all the most impressive sales numbers and sales people for that month, like a star monthly whiteboard, where they go through and they celebrate the top sales and the top salespeople.

The problem with that is that there are going to be people who work their tail off, and perhaps it’s because they didn’t have the right circumstances or they didn’t have the right resources to get the job done, to get on that winner’s list, but they might feel particularly demoralized by the fact that all this praise is being thrown at somebody else and not themselves.

And that really, I think, reinforces an environment of perfect performance that I think can be demoralizing for a lot of people, and that’s not to say incentives and praise is entirely bad. But I think what it does, yes, Pete, I think you have to be careful in terms of how it’s communicated in that kind of environment. 

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, I’d love to dig into some potential solutions and tips here, maybe both at the individual level and in the organizational managerial level. I’m curious, you mentioned in terms of perfectionism, you’re worried about perhaps losing your job “If I don’t do this just right.” And I’m thinking of a buddy of mine who worked at SpaceX, and so Elon Musk, really, is pretty hardcore and fires people kind of a lot.

And so, part of me thought, “Huh, maybe that is a completely valid, rational fear, or maybe it’s not.” Because I, too, have had the fears that, “Oh, the worst could happen,” but they were not. So, any pro tips on how we kind of get anchored into reality, and if we are catastrophizing, get back in a good spot?

Greg Chasson
I think it’s important to recognize that you’re not going to have all the information you need to be able to understand the situation, and that sometimes you’re going to have an accurate reading of the situation. If you’re working with Elon Musk and you think you might get fired, you might be right. This is the reality of the world. You can’t always predict, and in a lot of ways, anxiety and control go hand in hand.

I think control tends to be highly overestimated. People with anxiety overestimate their control, and so they’re constantly trying to do things to take over the situation and make sure that they can predict what’s coming next. And the problem is most things aren’t predictable or controllable, and so you end up with a lot of anxiety, especially over things that you can’t control.

And I would tell people, use your values as a guide in the situation, figure out what’s really important to you, and then use that as an indicator of which things to take risks on and which not to take risks on, and understand that a risk is a risk for a reason. You might be wrong and be comfortable with the possible end result. If not, then I would be very careful even doing it in the first place. So, I wish I can say that everyone is catastrophizing in these situations, but that’s not true.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, I think that sounds very wise in terms of, like, “You’ve done this before, Greg.” Anxiety and control going hand in hand, and a desire to predict what’s going on or to control what’s going on when you can’t. That feels like a potential Holy Grail right there, is if we can develop some comfort and peace with just the hard reality that many things are outside our control, and the future is kind of unpredictable, and we could just kind of do our best to influence things, and the chips will fall where they fall, and then to become okay with it. That sounds like an amazing mental health place to be. If we’re not there, how do we get there?

Greg Chasson
I think that’s exactly right, and it goes in multiple directions. So, I think anxiety is the misperception of having more control than you really have. Whereas, I think depression is the misperception that you have less control than you really have. So, people with depression often don’t think that they can do much to control the situation. They end up getting hopeless, when, in reality, there are some potential things they could do. It just doesn’t feel that way.

Whereas with the anxiety, they’re misperceiving their control. They think they have more than they really do. And so, you really have the seesaw going on, and in the end, both of them are illusions of control. And so, really, we just need to make sure that we’re not letting control, control us. And how do we do that? That was your question.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Greg Chasson
And, really, I think it is, again, I’m going to keep talking about this, figuring out what are the things that are within your power. Those are the things that you then need to check in with yourself about. And then even though you may have the power to change them, that’s not where the story ends. The story then continues with, “What is worth my efforts? What is worth the attempt to control?” because not everything is.

I have something that I call the emphasis framework, which has three different levels: emphasis A, emphasis B, and emphasis C. And this is really a framework for understanding effort allocation for tasks. So, if I want to do something perfectly, give it my all, 110%, that’s emphasis A. Emphasis B is to just get it done, just the get it done strategy. Doesn’t need to be garbage, doesn’t need to be perfect, doesn’t need to be amazing, doesn’t need to be beautiful.

And then there’s emphasis C, which is not to do it at all. And you might think, “Well, some of those sound better than others. Emphasis A obviously is better than B.” Actually, I take a step back and I’m agnostic to that, judgment free. Because there’s a time and place for all three of those. Emphasis A certainly makes sense if something is very important to you.

Maybe you’re getting married and you want to plan your wedding day. It’s super important to you and your family. Maybe you’re studying to get into law school, and the LSATs, the entrance exam, is really important to you, so you want to put in an emphasis A effort.

Emphasis C is also a totally legitimate strategy. And I never, ever answer the customer satisfaction survey at the end of my call with AT&T. I just don’t because it’s just not important to me, right? I’ve used my values as a judgment call. And so, that was a strategic selection of Emphasis C to protect my time and my resources.

Now, to be honest with you, Emphasis B is what most things warrant most of the time. Not everything can be that important to you at all times and really gets and deserves all of your attention. It’s just not sustainable. And the problem with perfectionism is that people with perfectionism try to emphasis A everything, and what happens is that you can’t do that.

So, what ends up occurring is that they attempt to emphasis A everything and it ends up pushing things aside, and so they end up emphasis C-ing things because they can’t get to it. And so, essentially, their perfectionism has selected their priorities and chosen for them rather than their values.

Pete Mockaitis
Ooh, that’s powerful. This reminds me of insights from our previous guest. David Allen says you could either handle things when they show up or when they blow up, and/or if you don’t, you’re going to just be dealing with whatever is latest and loudest.

Greg Chasson
Absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
So, like the AT&T survey, that’s there, that’s there right now, they’re asking for it right now, “Oh, okay,” you know, and so you didn’t actually make a choice. It just sort of you happened to be in a spot where they asked for a survey, and you did it. And you could make that choice in terms of, “You know what, I am all about everybody I encounter having the opportunity to learn and grow and improve every time, and so this is in accordance to my values, doing this survey.” Or, you could say, “No, that’s my value, but I don’t think they’re ever going to use my survey, so I will achieve that value better by calling a friend instead with that time saved.”

Greg Chasson
Well said.

Pete Mockaitis
And then we also had a guest, Morton Hansen, who said, “Do less than obsess,” which I think is so perfect in terms of those few things that are emphasis A. And then I guess you’re just going to discover naturally that we’ve got some just hard boundaries in terms of my time and my energy and my availability and my duties and responsibilities. It’s, like, “There’s only so many hours of brilliance I have available to deploy in a week. So where are they going to go?”

Greg Chasson
And, especially for someone that might be in the sandwich generation, dealing with kids and parents, juggling a job and family, I mean, this is a tough life sometimes. There’s a lot going on. It’s hard to keep up and you have to be judicious about where you allocate your time and energy. And that’s the problem with perfectionists. They have a really hard time doing that.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, but I think it’s so liberating if you sort of define that up front and in advance. I remember one time, I think I was in college, I kept getting in the habit of picking too many goals or tasks on the to-do list for a spring break, or a summer break, or a winter break, and so I just list all the things I just felt like I had an expectation to do them. But then at the top of the list, I wrote, “I am in no way committed to achieving all of these things,” and I felt amazing. It’s like, “Okay, this is just a menu of things I might choose to do, and that’s fine, and it feels great this way.”

Greg Chasson
I would maybe even say that you got more done than you would have had you not.

Pete Mockaitis
I think so, yeah.

Greg Chasson
Right. Because it puts you in a much better mindset. This is the thing. I call perfectionism the irony problem, because the more you try to perfect something, the more you end up kind of ruining it and making it not perfect. I have a story I tell about when I was a kid where I was working on a picture of Spider-Man, drawing Spider-Man, and he has this really very specific web design on his costume.

And I would just keep trying to get this right, and I would sit there and just erase time and time again, and I was so frustrated. And by the time I was done, I had completely destroyed this picture, completely annihilated it. I mean, Spider-Man looked like he had spaghetti arms by the time we were done. And it was a perfect example of how perfectionism is so ironic.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s powerful. All right, Greg, any other top pro tips, do’s and don’ts on perfectionism at the individual level before we shift gears to the managerial level?

Greg Chasson
Yeah, make mistakes on purpose. I use a framework called exposure therapy, which is a terrible name but it really is a gold standard treatment. It is highly supported by the research literature. It’s extremely effective, and you could use the principles to fight perfectionism. And this really requires you to, in a systematic way, face some of the things that are anxiety-provoking about not being perfect, and often that is making mistakes.

And so, I will have people make mistakes on purpose, and I know it sounds ludicrous, but I will start somewhere doable, and these will be smaller mistakes from our perspective, maybe not from the perfectionist’s perspective, and they might do something, like sign off their name with a typo, or send it to the wrong Jim in Accounting, something to that effect, and sitting with the anxiety that they really botched this up, and that they have to learn that they can tolerate that anxiety, that they won’t crumble. And maybe also learn that it’s not as catastrophic as they thought it would be.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot. and I’m imagining all the ways that could actually be kind of fun, and you could start with like the lowest of stakes, like you’re at a restaurant, and instead of ordering a chicken sandwich, you asked for a “sicken chandwich,” you know, just like mixing up a couple letters, completely inconsequential, and then just sort of go. Is that your recommendation, sort of tiny bit and then a little more, a little more, a little more, a little more?

Greg Chasson
Yeah, that’s a great example. The problem is, the person with perfectionism typically doesn’t find it particularly fun or enjoyable. They tend to be pretty upset about these kinds of things because, to them, this is their worldview. We might find it fun because we realize that the stakes are just not what they think that they are. Whereas, they’re in that world and they’re really struggling. But I do think that starting at that level, that kind of mistake is what I’m envisioning.

I’m not expecting you to go accidentally take $20 million from your company and throw it in the garbage. That’s not what I’m talking about. These are things that are relatively tiny from most people’s perspective, but from a perfectionist’s perspective – which is hard to say really fast, 10 times, perfectionist’s perspective – I really think that you can loosen up their thinking. It’s about that rigidity. It’s about the risk-taking and fighting that fear of failure and learning from it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Understood. Anything else at the individual level you want to make sure to mention?

Greg Chasson
I think it really just takes a little bit of collaboration and making sure that the person has some insight around their perfectionism. It can be sometimes difficult to approach an individual with perfectionism and have that conversation. This is probably the number one question I get, “How do I approach so-and-so with this perfectionism?” And in an organization, you have to be careful right because it’s a different setting than if this was a friend or a romantic partner or a teammate. It’s a little sticky.

And to approach them, I often tell people to focus on the distress. Don’t focus on what you think is ridiculous about it, or that they’re not understanding, or that they’re being rigid. Instead, focus on the fact that they are probably suffering at some level with anxiety or frustration around the worldview that they have just been pounded with since they were a kid, feeling like they can’t take a breather, they can’t stop. They have to do this perfectly. That almost always comes with tremendous anxiety. And so, being able to tap into that and say, “Look, this anxiety, you don’t have to experience it like this.”

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Okay. Well, so now let’s think a little bit about some management, or team organizational level things. What are some top do’s and don’ts there?

Greg Chasson
I think the top do is to make sure that you’re communicating what perfectionism is, and I would do this very explicitly. I don’t know that I would do this in a subtle way. I would recommend talking about perfectionism and fear of failure, if you need to use language that’s a little bit more understandable, and talking about how that kind of a culture can really lead to stagnation, and how, “Here are the things that we encourage in our workplace.”

Taking calculated, intelligent risks, get the support of the people, talk it over the risk and what it might mean, but don’t hesitate if it’s actually an idea that could lead to the latest innovation and could take this company to new heights. So, I really think that this failure fear is something you could address very specifically in an employee handbook or in your mission statement or values, and you could really hammer it home.

Of course, that would then need to be embodied in your behavior in the organization. I think everyone can sniff out a perfunctory mission statement or value and it doesn’t actually translate. But if you could actually translate that with the way that you are responding to people’s mistakes, encouraging them to take big leaps, these are the kinds of things you can do at the cultural level that I think would help protect against perfectionism.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I’d also love your view in terms of in a world in which we have public recognition, like, “Here’s the top five sales people,” or whatever, how do we think about that in terms of providing…? In some ways that incentivizes competing against your teammates and colleagues, and sometimes folks find that quite motivating, “I want to win and be number one.” But maybe that is problematic, and even more so for perfectionists. How do you think about motivating, recognizing, and these kinds of things?

Greg Chasson
Yeah, great question. It really depends very much on the individual, at the individual level. For some people, that kind of system really can motivate them and move them forward, especially if they’re flexible in their thinking and anti-perfectionistic, because they’re not always going to meet every goal. They’re not always going to be the top. And if you’re not, you need to be able to pick yourself up quickly and try to learn from it and go do better.

The perfectionist really struggles with this. They really struggle with getting positive feedback. They might be told that they’re the best at what they did this month, but they will find a way to not be happy with it. It’s part of the perfectionism is that they’re generally not satisfied with their performance. They’re the type of student that will argue when they got a 99% on an assignment instead of a hundred.

And so, when you have these kinds of public displays of who’s done the best in a way that you think will motivate your employees, it very well could motivate some, but the perfectionist is in the corner beating themselves up, even if they’re number one on the list. So, it really isn’t a one-size-fits-all, and I think it’s really important for people in management and leaders to understand that not everyone is going to respond well to that kind of a mechanism, and that you might need to be a little careful about tailoring it to that perfectionist in the corner.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, then what might be some superior ways if we have a mix of perfectionists? And maybe I should have asked this earlier Greg, what proportion of us, U.S. professionals, are, in fact, perfectionists?

Greg Chasson
A very difficult question to answer because it depends on how you define that and where you draw the line. I’ve seen estimates from a quarter, 30%. I’ve seen some samples up to 80, 90%. I think the one thing I could definitely say with longitudinal data is that we are seeing an increase in cohorts over time. So, there is something going on that is making us more perfectionistic over time in terms of cohorts.

So not that I’m necessarily getting more perfectionistic over time, but 18-year-olds are getting more perfectionistic over time.

Pete Mockaitis
Intriguing. Okay. Well, so if we operate with that assumption that in a team situation, perhaps a quarter plus of folks are perfectionistic, how might we want to do some managing and some communicating differently? One thing was to be just very explicit, it’s like, “This is what’s going on.” And then how about some of the day-to-day stuff in terms of how we interact with folks?

Greg Chasson
So, one thing that I recommend is something that would drive people bonkers, but I think it really could be useful for reinforcing a flexible mentality in the workplace. So, if you’re in a work setting where people are extremely stuck on routine, everything is the same every single day, “There’s this task A, task B, task C,” and it’s sort of done in the way at the same time every day, I tell people to use a random work schedule to get people loosened up and flexible and learn that they can pivot and adjust.

So, when someone comes in at random, you pick which tasks they do in which order, assuming that that’s feasible or possible. Sometimes you task-require one is done before the other, but you can sort of randomize this in a certain way. And the bottom line here is to really reinforce this idea of flexibility. The more you can do things that push this idea of flexibility and get them to practice, the more, I think, you’re going to benefit from people being nimble and being willing not to get stuck on the hamster wheel.

Pete Mockaitis
You know what’s funny, Greg, is I’ve done that in my own world, just with my own to-do list with a roll of the dice, and I actually find I liked it because it just sort of eliminated the, “Huh, what should I do next? Well, maybe this or maybe I’m feeling a bit more energetic around here.” It’s like, “No, we just cut through all of that. Number six, okay. Doing number six.”

Greg Chasson
Exactly. In one chapter of my book, I call it process paralysis. It’s when perfectionism really gets a hold of the process, the planning. So which steps do you do in which order? And how do you be efficient versus not getting stuck being inefficient? And so, you get stuck on this, and it really could become paralyzing. And what I talk about is sort of the flexibility of sometimes you choose to be inefficient on purpose just to get it done, just to move forward.

And this is where I use that emphasis framework. Instead of emphasis A, the planning, sometimes you just got to emphasis B the daylights out of it, and like you said, roll dice and see what happens and go for it. And I think if you can start to do that more and more, you will start to loosen. Your rigidity will start to loosen. And I think if that culture is put forth in the workplace, you really can support people who are really working on that.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear some of your favorite things?

Greg Chasson
Yeah, a couple of things, if you don’t mind. The first is something I didn’t get a chance to talk about, which is other-oriented perfectionism. This is where you tend to project your perfectionistic standards onto other people instead of yourself. And I dedicate a couple of chapters to this, both in terms of how to deal with a coworker who has other-oriented perfectionism and also how to deal with a boss who might have some perfectionistic tendencies.

Now, I really focus on something called “moralism” because sometimes our perfectionism really gets us stuck on morals. “That person is being immoral,” and you end up really getting stuck trying to correct people based on what you think is correct and moral or not moral, and it really can look self-righteous, and that is another problem that we see in the workplace.

This is the person in your workplace who you find is obnoxious or policing people based on what they think is correct or okay, and that moralism sometimes can come from a place of perfectionism. And so, I often encourage people in the workplaces where I give talks or I train, is keep an eye out for some of these scenarios where you have this toxic interpersonal dynamic. There could be perfectionism at play.

The second piece that I would like to add here is that perfectionism is not all bad. I want to be very clear. I would not recommend ridding perfectionists from the workplace. I want to highlight that perfectionism comes with some tremendously positive characteristics. Now, I personally don’t think that those characteristics depend on you also being perfectionistic. So, I think you could work on your perfectionism and not lose all those positive qualities. But there are things like loyalty and conscientiousness.

And if there’s one ingredient I would want in one of my employees, it’s conscientiousness. Honesty. They tend to have some honesty that you might not find in other people. They’re detail-oriented. These are some great characteristics that you want in your employees. They’re the hardest working people that are on your teams.

And I would be remiss if I didn’t bring that up because I don’t want people to make this a witch hunt. I would absolutely hire a perfectionist, and my goal would be to leverage their strengths and to work on helping them with their difficulties.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Greg Chasson
I think my favorite quote really is about control. Shocker, right? It really is this idea of breaking the illusion of control, that we need to see when control is actually controlling us, because that’s when we need to do something about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or piece of research?

Greg Chasson
Some of my favorite research is around this idea of doubt and uncertainty, which is very close to this concept of anxiety and perfectionism. And there has been a ton of research that shows, and I love this, it’s so paradoxical, the more you check something, the more you doubt it. You know, checking the stove that we turned it off, or checking that we didn’t make a mistake, or checking that we pushed record on our podcast, these kinds of things actually make us doubt even more than have we not checked in the first place.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, Greg, this is so meta in real time, but when you said record on the podcast, I did check, and then having checked, I felt less sure than I did before you even mentioned it.

Greg Chasson
You’re embodying the very research finding that I described. Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite book?

Greg Chasson
The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins, and it flipped my entire understanding of human nature and biology upside down on its head. And I would say that that book has transformed me more than any other book that’s out there.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And habit?

Greg Chasson
My favorite habit is something I tell my kids because they have a hard time with it, but having systems at home so that you’re not losing your keys and your wallet because I’m finding them all over my house. I’m sure any parent can understand that. And so, my favorite habit is just having these systems in place so that I never lose my stuff.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, and you hear them quoted back to you often?

Greg Chasson
It really is this idea of anxiety being a misperception of control. I know I keep pounding that home. But that’s the thing that has resonated the most with people, that anxiety is overestimating control, whereas depression may be underestimating control. And when you can start to calibrate that a little bit better, you can start to see yourself lift from anxiety and depression.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Greg Chasson
I think the best way to get in touch and to learn more about the message that I’m trying to spread, the movement I’m trying to create around perfectionism, is to join my mailing list, which you can do on my website at GregChasson.com. And I’d love to hear from people, so feel free to email me and let me know what you think of the podcast. Let me know what you think of the book and content that I put out there on the blog and the website. And if it’s something of interest to you for your organization, I do love coming and spreading my message and helping organizations get unstuck from their perfectionism and fear of failure.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Greg Chasson
Make mistakes on purpose. That’s what I would say. Go and lean in to making mistakes, and learn from opportunity and innovate.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Greg, thank you for this deeply flawed conversation.

Greg Chasson
Deeply, deeply flawed, I’m sure. Thank you very much for having me.

Sep 30
0

998: A Crisis Management Expert’s Guide to Leading Well with Dr. Thom Mayer

By | Podcasts | No Comments

The “Master of Disaster” Dr. Thom Mayer shares his most valuable lessons learned from leading during times of major crises.

You’ll Learn

  1. The critical first step to leading well
  2. The recipe for a great workplace culture 
  3. Why to suck down instead of up 

About Thom

Dr. Thom Mayer is the Medical Director for the NFL Players Association, Executive Vice President of Leadership for LogixHealth, Founder of BestPractices, Inc., Speaker for Executive Speakers Bureau, and Clinical Professor of Emergency Medicine at George Washington University and Senior Lecturing Fellow at Duke University.

He is one of the most widely sought speakers on leading in times of crisis, patient experience, hardwiring flow, trauma and emergency care, pediatric emergency care, EMS/disaster medicine, and sports medicine. In sports medicine, his work at the forefront of changing concussion diagnosis and management in the NFL has changed the way in which these athletes are diagnosed and treated. His work in each of these areas has resulted in changing the very fabric of patient care.

In 2022, Dr. Mayer helped lead a mobile team to Ukraine, caring for more than 350 internally displaced persons during the current war and training over 1,700 Ukrainian doctors, nurses, and paramedics. On September 11, 2001, Dr. Mayer served as the Command Physician at the Pentagon Rescue Operation and has served on three Defense Science Board Task Forces, advising the Secretary of Defense.

He has published over 100 peer-reviewed articles, over 200 book chapters, and has edited or written 25 textbooks. His newest book, Leadership Is Worthless…But Leading is Priceless will be released on May 7, 2024 through Berrett-Koehler.

He has won numerous awards, including the ACEP James D. Mills Outstanding Contribution to Emergency Medicine Award in 2018. He has also been named the ACEP Outstanding Speaker of The Year, ACEP’s “Over-the-Top” (three times), and ACHE James Hamilton Award (three books).

Resources Mentioned

Dr. Thom Mayer Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Thom, welcome.

Thom Mayer
Well, it’s good to be here. I’m honored to be among your guests. I really enjoy the work you do.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. Well, we’re honored to have you, the so-called master of disaster. Hopefully, this interview is not a disaster. And to that end, I’d love it if you could kick us off with a riveting tale. Firsthand, you’re in the midst of a crisis, high stakes, life and death situation. Take us into the scene. What went down and what was a key learning that you picked up that’s really influenced some of your work and writings?

Thom Mayer
Well, there could be many of them, but since we’re recording the day after 9/11, I can remember vividly what it was like to go to the Pentagon on 9/11 in 2001. I was summoned there to become the command physician. It was looking at the gates of hell. It looked like a movie scene. Everyone who was there that day felt as I did that, “This can’t be real. How could it be possible that a plane would crash into the Pentagon?” But everyone’s eyes turned to you, because as the command physician, and you wear a bright orange fluorescent vest that identifies you as such, it’s not like you can hide.

And they’ve got eyes on you to figure out, “Doc, is it safe for us to go in the building? Is it safe for us to go in and try to rescue people and to recover those who couldn’t be rescued?” So, it was an honor.

And the next three days were not a blur, as people often see it, but a series of not just snapshots with absolute clarity in terms of what the problems and issues were, but more like a movie on a continuous thread. Eventually, when it was safe, I went into the building with SCBA tanks on our backs and helmets on with the FBI evidence recovery team to survey both the devastation of what had occurred, but also to think about lessons for what that might teach us for the future.

So, most people are sane and run away from the sound of chaos and fire and flames and explosions, but we, I say not just me, but the entire team of 5,000 people were trained and anxious to go in and help. So, we kind of run towards the sounds of chaos.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s quite a turn of phrase, “Run towards the sounds of chaos.” And has that been sort of a recurring theme or lesson or a recommendation you give to leaders and professionals in the midst of them doing their daily work even if it’s lower drama, lower stakes?

Thom Mayer
Yeah, absolutely. And I get this question of, to me that’s an honor and one we should all embrace, and people ask me, “Well, yeah, but, Doc, I don’t get to lead on a national stage, an international stage of crisis, but that’s my point, is all of us lead all day, every day in whatever we do.

So, waiting, I think the word “Someday I’ll be a leader” is a wistful, unhelpful word and phrase. “Today, I am a leader” is a very embraceable phrase and one that everyone, no matter who they are, no matter what they do, certainly you lead when you put this podcast together. But you also lead when you take Joey boy for a walk or calm him down or whatever it is that he needs. As his father, you’re leading him. Just like a single mother leads her family.

So, it strikes me that leading is a truly universal concept and not an aspirational goal. It’s something that we need to listen to, embrace every day.

Pete Mockaitis
Thom, I like that and I resonate with that, and I’m curious if you’ve ever heard pushback. If someone were to say to you, “Oh, Thom, I am the tiniest cog in a grand machine. I have so little influence over…” how do you respond?

Thom Mayer
Well, certainly, I get pushback because, in the book, the title is Leadership Is Worthless…But Leading Is Priceless and that’s contrarian, counterintuitive at a minimum, and if it’s offensive, I don’t mean it to be, but it deserves an explanation. The explanation is leadership is worthless because it’s just what you say, and anybody can say anything. But leading is priceless, precisely, because it’s what you do, and we all do that. So, I do get pushback, “I’m the small cog in a very big wheel,” and my answer is, “But you’re your cog.”

When our boys were younger, Maureen, my beautiful and brilliant wife and I had three boys, now young men, but whenever I was in town, because my job requires a lot of travel, speaking and meetings, things like that, whenever I was in town, I drove them to work in my truck, and when I let them out, I said precisely the same thing, which is, “One more step in the journey of discovering where your deep joy intersects the world’s deep needs.” I swear I said this to them. They prefer to take the bus.

Pete Mockaitis
“Okay, Dad!”

Thom Mayer
Yeah, “Bye-bye. I’ll take the bus today. No, thank you.”

Pete Mockaitis
“Is my lunch here?”

Thom Mayer
Yeah, exactly. But the point is you have to start with your deep joy. Doing this podcast, setting it up, having the guests on that you have is not easy, but it’s your deep joy, and that comes through in every episode I’ve listened to, and I’ve listened to over 10 of them, that comes through. But if you were just showing up and putting the time in, that would show too, and that wouldn’t be your deep joy.

So, when I find people that are not able to embrace the job that they’re doing, it’s usually because they’ve signed up for the wrong job. It’s not where their deep joy intersects the world’s deep needs. And once people understand that and learn that, I think it becomes easier to not aspire to be a leader, but to embrace the fact that you are already a leader, and then to inspire others through what you do and what you say and how you do it.

So, I’m interested in helping people, when they wake up in the morning and their eyes open and they swing their legs around, to say, “Today, I am a leader. How will I lead? How will I exemplify what I believe in, my deep joy, mission, vision, values, true north?” whatever you want to call it, and different of your guests have called it different things, but that’s what needs to be done. And, therefore, the book is not intended as a leadership book. It’s also not an anti-leadership book. It’s simply a book for people who want to embrace the fact that they lead and will continue to lead.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I’d love it if you could give us an, maybe, unconventional or striking example of someone who identified their deep joy connecting with the world’s deep need. Because I’m thinking about some folks who are like, “Well, geez, my deep joy is playing this game.” I’m just thinking about my kids.

Thom Mayer

Sure. Sure.

Pete Mockaitis

If I say that to them, “What’s cool?” it’s like, “Well, what I love doing most is playing the snake game on the Apple TV, Dad.” So, that doesn’t really solve a need. But I imagine there’s sort of a process of inquiry and discovery that leads you to discover such intersections. Could you tell us a tale of such a process?

Thom Mayer

I was a football player, and that was my deep joy when I was a kid. And when say kid, all the way through high school and college. I wanted to play in the National Football League. And most people play football in order to go to college so that they can get a scholarship and not have to pay for their education. I was exactly the opposite. I went to college to play football because I was finished with high school, and if I was going to continue playing this game that I loved, I couldn’t go straight to the pros then, you had to go to college.

So, I did. I started when I was a freshman, that was unusual. But about a third of the way through the season, the coach said to me, “Hey, I talked to your academic advisor and you haven’t declared a major.” And I said, “A major what? You didn’t say anything about a major when you recruited me.” “No, no, Thom, you got to have a major, a major field of study.”

So, I chose theology, and became a theology major because I was always interested in how people think and what they do and all that. And, honestly, Pete, it was because you didn’t have to take tests. You just wrote papers and had discussions under trees. So, I thought, “Hey, they’re already paying for my education, how about I don’t work all that hard on the education part?”

And at the end of my sophomore year, my theology advisor and a professor, biology professor, who I had taken a course from. “Have you ever thought about becoming a doctor because you might have more influence as a doctor than as a theology professor?” I didn’t know. A doctor was somebody who sawed up a laceration or stuck his finger some place I didn’t want it, and said, “Turn your head and cough.” But I said, Sure.” I trusted these guys.

So, as a junior, I started taking freshman-level pre-med courses. The first course was Chemistry 101. It went okay, if not great. I got to the first test. It was a hundred-question test, and I opened it up and the first question is “A mole is Avogadro’s number of particles or…” and then five answers, A, B, C, D, E. “Well, who’s Avogadro? I never heard of an Avogadro. He’s got a number. I don’t, a mole? I thought that was a critter that tore up your lawn or something.”

So, I thought, “You know, hey, this has been great, no problems. I wonder if I can…Are we still in drop ag? Can I drop this course? I’ll just go back to theology and football.” So, my answer is I didn’t even read the questions from there on because I figured if I didn’t even know what the first one was. So, I just did A, B, C, D, E, E, D, C, B, A. In football, we call a slant and go route, a sluggo route, and that’s what my answer page looked like.

So, I got to the end, a hundred question, marked it off, flipped the page, but in the back, there was a blue envelope, and typed on the envelope said, “Bonus question. If you get this question right, you’ll get an A in this course no matter what you did on the first 100 questions.” And I thought, “Let’s give it a shot.” So, I opened it up it says, “What’s the name of the man who cleans this room every night so you can have a great place in which to learn?”

So, I walked up to the professor, Keith White, the Chairman of the Department of Chemistry, I said, “Dr. White, this bonus question…” and he smiled, and I said, “You want his first name or his last name?” And he said, “Thom, if you can give me his first name and his last name, I’ll not only give you an A in this test, I’ll give you an A on this course, as long as you show up and as long as you do your work.”

And I said, “Well, Dr. White, what if I can give you his wife’s name and the names and ages of his six kids?” He stood up, took his glasses off, pointed at me, and said, “Thom, if you can do that, I’ll give you an A in every chemistry course you take, as long as you show up and as long as you do the work.” And he was as good as his word and I was too. And so, all my chemistry courses from him, I got an A in. And so, what’s my point?

Pete Mockaitis

If I may time out. How did you happen to know him so well, the person who’s…?

Thom Mayer

Well, that’s the point, that’s the deep-joy point because the reason I knew him so well was, I didn’t even get to the chemistry lab until I had finished all day of classes, all day three hours of practice in football, theology essays, so about midnight I end up showing up in the lab and that’s when this gentleman, who had another job during the day, came to the lab.

So, we got to know each other and got to know each other well in the darkness of the night because his deep joy was not just cleaning that room, but interacting with the very few students. I was probably only one of two in a whole semester. And so, I became a doctor not because I’m smart or intelligent or hardworking, but because of a janitor at the college I went to. His name was Roosevelt Richmond.

But, let me tell you, he came in smiling every day, whistling every day, and he always said to me, “Look at him, he’s got fire in his belly.” And I’d said, “No, Mr. Richmond, I just don’t plan my time all that well.” So, I found that, as a physician in environmental services, janitorial services, I hate that second term. In the hospital, so after a tough resuscitation and there’s trauma, there’s blood all over the place, sure, I thank the nurse, yes, I thank the resident, yes, I thank my colleagues, but I also go over to the environmental services person and say, “Thanks for cleaning this up. We can’t do this without you.”

So, I think as you go through your day, counterintuitively, you’re going to see people that may not have CEO after their name, they may not work and live in the C-suite, but they live in the C-suite of their life, of their family, of their job. And so, a long way to travel to answer your question, but they’re everywhere. The deep-joy folks are literally everywhere, in my opinion.

Pete Mockaitis

That is beautiful. Thank you. So cool. So cool. Well, so tell us then, your book, Leadership Is Worthless…But Leading Is Priceless, we’ve already shared a couple principles and some gems, are there any top things you think most of us are getting wrong about leadership and some key reframes or principles that you just wish the world would internalize?

Thom Mayer

So, I really want people to do three things. Number one, to think about leading, not leadership, but leading, a verb, active voice, the actions, in a radically different way.

Number two, I want them to act on that within a week, because if people listen to this or any of your podcasts, or anything that they hear or read or see, and aren’t moved to action within a week, they’re probably not going to do it. They may be, “Wow, that was interesting,” but if it doesn’t change what you do, so I want you to think, I want you to act.

And the third is to innovate. And the reason we have to innovate, I think, is because the way we’re working isn’t working, or it isn’t working well enough or as well as it could, so that innovation is an iterative process in everyone’s life. But it doesn’t occur at the speed of genius or intelligence or creativity. It occurs at the speed of trust because if we don’t trust each other, we won’t step outside the lines. We’ll be afraid of failure.

And when you begin to look at it that way, the answers are not above us, as most people think. The answers are within and among us. The answers aren’t in the C-suite. The answers are in the We-suite, the people who do the work, no matter what the work is. So, what I would say to your listeners is, the leader you’re looking for is you. It’s already there. It’s not something in the future.

I, personally, think if people call others future leaders, I think that’s absolutely a demeaning thing to say, as if, “I’m a leader but you’re not.” The boss is somebody who thinks that he’s the most important person in the room, but the leader knows that her job is to make sure that everyone else in the room feels that they’re the most important person in the room.

So, that somewhat epiphanous moment, and again, I’m okay with aspirational, developing, emerging, but the idea of calling someone a future leader, within those words, I guess as a theology major, I think all words have meaning but all actions and behaviors have meaning. You’re already there, folks. The leader you’re looking for is you. Just embrace it and, yes, improve it, but live up to what it is you believe in in the first place. Don’t think, “Well, someday in the future, it’ll happen to me.”

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah. Well, it’s funny when you say future leaders, I think I’ve heard that most often in the context of I was a high school student at leadership conferences, of which I was a big fan and attended many. But, yeah, when you say it like that to grown-ups, in the midst of their job, that does feel demeaning. And it reminds me of like, “Oh, I think of you as a child.” But even children, I would say are leading. I’m thinking about my six-year-old Johnny is leading his younger siblings and influencing them in positive, beautiful ways, which is heartwarming to see. So, yeah, aspiring, emerging, but also, yes, here and now.

Thom Mayer

Well, that’s a great example because, you know, we have three boys, and we now have five grandkids, and they lead. They lead their families. Those other kids, younger kids, look up to them and model their behavior after them. So, Johnny can feel like, “Well, I’m just a six-year-old,” or it can feel like, “Son, I saw what you did. That was incredible. Thank you for doing that. I appreciate that.” Same world but two different worlds altogether, if you think about it in that way.

Pete Mockaitis

So, if we want to think about leading in a radically different way, is that right there, the radically different way, you know, the We-suite, not the C-suite, everyone is…?

Thom Mayer

Yeah, I think you have to talk about, you know, it’s not the C-suite that matters. It’s the We-suite. It’s the people who do the work. There’s a concept that Kirk Jensen, one of my research partners and I coined, called hardwiring flow, and that means hardwiring flow into systems and processes. What’s hardwiring flow? It means stop doing stupid stuff and start doing smart stuff.

Well, who’s going to identify the stupid stuff? I think the people who do the work know what the stupid stuff is. And they also know if we can innovate at the speed of trust, if we can make failure our fuel, they’ll devise the solutions that work best for the customer, for the patient, in my case, in terms of emergency medicine and sports medicine, as opposed to the C-suite.

Now it doesn’t mean that the C-suite doesn’t have an important role, but the role is not making decisions, not devising new solutions, not saying, “Well, leading consists of vision. I’m the Chief Vision Officer.” Well, the people who do the work are the ones who can best see what the vision is for how to improve the work, number one.

But the C-suite then begins to say, “Oh, my role is to create these enzymatic catalytic reactions which allow the We-suite to do their work,” which leads to corollaries, making failure your fuel, number one. Number two, it’s not the words on the walls that matter. It’s the happenings in the halls. As an emergency physician in tough situations, if I got to look up on the wall to figure out what I’m supposed to do, something is wrong.

Pete Mockaitis

“Hang in there,” with the cat.

Thom Mayer

“Yeah, let me figure this out here.” So, I think it’s not necessarily an inversion of the traditional ways of thinking about things. It’s a reframing of what I found the reality of leading in times of crisis to be.

Pete Mockaitis

You say, “Do more smart stuff and less dumb stuff. The people who are closest to the action see what’s the dumb stuff.” And I think that is, boy, in the game of leadership effectiveness, I don’t know if that’s maybe a third or a half of the battle is just creating the environment.

We’ve had Amy Edmondson, who talks about psychological safety and researches it, on the show a couple of times, in terms of, “Do you really have an environment, a culture, systems, processes, incentives, whereby folks are encouraged and freely, safely, are able to speak up and say, ‘Hey, I noticed we’re doing this dumb thing. Maybe we should do this other thing instead.’?”

And then will that be received and acted upon, or will it just be poo-pooed, or just like, “Huh!” Or just ignored, like, “Huh, that’s weird,” or more or less send the message explicitly or implicitly, “Shut up. This is the way we do things around here, and we’re really too busy to worry about this irrelevant little thing that you’ve brought to our attention, little peon.”

So, sometimes it really does feel like that’s the vibe in a lot of organizations and teams and cultures, and I think it is so toxic to our longtime flourishing. But you’re the expert, I’m just the rambler, how do you think about setting up a situation where folks can surface, “Hey, there’s some improvement opportunities, and let’s get after them”?

Thom Mayer

Well, I couldn’t agree more with the way you framed it. I think my friend, Mark Verstegen, who founded what’s originally called Athletes Performance, now Team Exos. He’s the performance director for the NFL Players Association, one of my partners in terms of keeping our players healthy and safe. But he says it well, “Simple things done savagely well.”

And we’ve made life more complex than it really is. In many ways, perhaps because I was a theology major, we’re almost reinventing and rethinking Aristotelian wisdom, and what I mean by that is this. Aristotle famously said, “We are what we repeatedly do.” The excellence then is not a virtue, but a habit.

Well, if that’s true, and I believe it deeply to be true, hence, the leader you’re looking for is you, the answers are not above us, they’re within and among us, then we begin to realize that. I hear about culture all the time, “We have a great culture,” and I go to organizations and 50% burnout, and when I talk about accountability, burnout, leaders and leading in times of crisis.

And my answer is, “If your culture is so great, why are 50% of your people burned out?” Because burnout, Christina Maslach is a close friend, and I talked to her many times.

Pete Mockaitis

A guest on the show.

Thom Mayer

Yeah, I listened to that one. It was great, as it always is. But, to me, burnout is simply the fact that you’re unable to feel your deep joy at work, then that becomes just a ratio of job stressors and adaptive capacity or resiliency, another term. We can talk about that if we have time. But when you begin to think of it in that way, and you realize that the culture is created every day by the people who impact the other people in the organization, whether that’s the customer, the outward-facing customer, or the inward-facing customers, the teams, that’s why there’s no leading except with teamwork.

So, the work begins within each of us, but it turns towards teamwork because we work in teams. So, how do you start that? Well, you hire right. I’m a lot less interested in hiring brilliant resumes than I am motivated people, motivated by their deep joy, their passion, their servant leadership, all these terms that we’re used to, easy to say but harder to do.

Because we can educate people. I can make them smarter in whatever, cardiac resuscitation, trauma, sports medicine, and all that. But if they don’t have the passion, if they don’t have the burning desire, if they don’t have the willingness to work across teams, Bill Belichick said famously, “Talent sets the floor of a team, but character sets the ceiling.”

And when we look at the character of people when we hire them, we say, “I don’t want you to just show up for work. I want you to show up for work with passion, with joy, with intensity, and with ideas on how this work could be better.” So, you have your job, but you also have that important job of helping that job be better and easier for the people who do it.

Because, as you know, and you’ve talked about this in the show before, intrinsic motivation is why people do things, not because the boss says so but because they realize this better serves their deep joy, it’s easier for them, and it’s better for the customer or patient or whoever it is that we’re at that job for. So, I think hiring right and creating that culture on day one before they ever come into the organization is critical and neglected in many organizations.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, Thom, tell me any other top do’s and don’ts you want to make sure to put out there before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Thom Mayer

What I learned at the Pentagon, I’m asked that question often, “Just tell me one thing you learned at the Pentagon.” And the answer is, “Stop sucking up. Start sucking down.” And what I mean by that is, on day one, September 11th, in the afternoon with the fire raging, there were 32 generals, two-star or above, standing behind me at the Pentagon. Great people, impassioned people, deep joy, saying, “Doc, tell us what you need and we’ll get it for you,” because that was their people inside that burning building.

Now, I could have spent three days, which I did on-site, sucking up to the generals. It wouldn’t have done me any good, and, more importantly, it wouldn’t have done the people I was serving, the paramedics, the firefighters, the structural engineers. So, suck down is what we need to do, and that was the structural engineers, the Army Corps of Engineers, shoring up that building, fixing that gash where American Flight 77 blew through the southwest wall of the Pentagon, all the way into the A-ring, the inner ring of the Pentagon, the firefighters, the paramedics.

And I think that’s true in most organizations. People need to stop sucking up and start sucking down. If you have a bunch of suck-ups, most of us can’t stand that, but that comes when you talk about future leaders instead of “You are leading today. What can I do to make your job better and our customers’ lives, patients’ lives in my case, better?” So, one piece is just that. Stop sucking up, start sucking down.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And so, when you say, so sucking up, we understand to mean, when you say, “Oh, oh, is there anything I can do for you, sir or madam? I think you’re so wonderful and so smart and so brilliant, and, oh, let me get that for you right away.” And so, we sort of want to take that approach of, I don’t know, deferential-ness, or kindness, service, etc. to serve those who are on lower levels of the org chart so that we see “What do you need? What can I do for you? How can we make your life easier, better, resource you so that you can do what you need to do well?”

Thom Mayer

And you phrased it perfectly, particularly the voice inflection, but that voice inflection, that sucking up, is kryptonite to creativity. Absolute kryptonite to creativity. Because when most people, when most bosses say, “Think outside the box,” they don’t mean that. They mean, “Think inside my box. Think the way I think.”

Pete Mockaitis

“Outside of your box and inside my box.”

Thom Mayer

Exactly. And guess what the boss is thinking. It’s just no way to live. No way to live for the people doing the work. It’s really no way to live for a leader because it’s frustrating. You really want them to, “Hey, blow me away. Give me an idea. Let’s think about how this could be done differently.” Again, contrarian, but I think, in my life at least, it’s been one of the keys to success.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Any other top do’s and don’ts?

Thom Mayer

The leader you’re looking for is you. Everyone in every organization is a leader, number one. Number two, everyone in every organization is a performance athlete, no different than my athletes in the NFL, involved in a cycle of performance, rest, and recovery. Performance, rest, and recovery. And as you know, we’ve neglected rest and recovery, which is part of the reason we have so much burnout and moral injury in our society these days. So, invest in yourself, invest in your team of people.

And then third, the work begins with them. We always start within ourselves. People say, “Well, do you ask people in an interview ‘What keeps you up at night?’” And the answer is, “No, hell, no. I ask them ‘What gets you up in the morning?’ That’s what I care about.” And that’s why I say the work begins with them, but it turns towards teamwork. So, the skills of teamwork, perhaps a future podcast we can do together, but an absolute part of success, personally and within organizations.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Thom Mayer

Well, one of my favorites is Churchill, and it’s not, maybe one you’ve never heard Churchill say before. But in the midst of his prime minister-ship, the Lord Mayor of London had a luncheon for him and his beloved, treasured wife, Clementine, was there with him.

And the Lord Mayor thought he was going to trick Churchill by saying, “Mr. Prime Minister, if you couldn’t be Sir Winston Churchill, who would you choose to be?” And his impish smile, and said, “Mr. Lord Mayor, if I couldn’t be Sir Winston Churchill, I would choose to be…” and he looks down at his wife, and said, “Mrs. Churchill’s second husband.” Isn’t that nice? That’s the way I feel too.

Pete Mockaitis

And a favorite study, or experiment, or bit of research?

Thom Mayer

Oh, I think all the work done on this. We’re working now on lifespan, how long you live, health-span, how disease-free you are, but we’re doing a lot of work now on joy span, on how the generative joy, the generative nature of creativity, of doing things, not just at your stage and my stage in life, but Johnny’s stage and Joey’s stage so that we nurture that sense of awe, that sense of joy, that sense of we are all creating our own lives and helping shape the lives of others. So, some great research coming out on that that I think is going to help change the way we look at what does a successful life look like.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite book?

Thom Mayer

If you said choose one, I’m very impressed with Brene Brown, and I think her work is very, very important work. And if I chose one, I’d probably say Dare to Lead.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Thom Mayer

Oh, I think a smile. When people think of me, I only want them to do one thing. I want them to smile. Now, I don’t have a great smile, but the tool is creating smiles in other people so that when they hear my name, hear my voice, see my face, they smile.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite habit?

Thom Mayer

Gratitude. I try to get up every morning, and before I do anything else, sit calmly or stand calmly and think of three good things that I’m really grateful for. And I try, during the course of that day, to reach out to whoever or whatever team it was that I thought about and let them know that, because, as one great writer said, “There is silence enough beyond the grave.” I think expressing that gratitude is more important in some ways than feeling that gratitude.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And is there a key nugget you share with audiences or readers that seems to really connect and resonate, they highlight it, they retweet it, they quote it back to you often?

Thom Mayer

Over the course of 30 plus years, it’s deep joy. People say, they’ll come up to me and say, “I heard you speak 20 years ago or 10 years ago or last year, and of all the things you said, the thing that stuck with me is deep joy, deep needs.” So, yeah, people, and you’re probably about to ask me what my deep joy is, and my deep joy is helping other people find and embrace and live their deep joy.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Thom Mayer

Well, the book is available on Amazon and all major websites, Leadership Is Worthless…But Leading Is Priceless: What I Learned from 9/11, the NFL, and Ukraine, because I had the honor of serving there. But my email is the best, it’s just thommayermd@gmail. If I can help you, it’d be an honor. Reach out anytime.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, thank you. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Thom Mayer

The leader you’re looking for is you. The work begins within.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Thom, this has been so much fun. I wish you much luck and joy and goodness in all you’re up to.

Thom Mayer

Thanks, Pete. It’s, as I said, an honor to be on. I appreciate it very much. Give a squeeze to your family.

Sep 26
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997: How to Push Past Self-Doubt and Find the Confidence to Pursue Big Things with Pat Flynn and Matt Gartland

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Pat Flynn and Matt Gartland share insights on impostor syndrome–and more–from their community of thousands of developing entrepreneurs.

You’ll Learn

  1. The mindset shift that stops self-doubt
  2. The three daily questions that build confidence
  3. Why to seek more uncomfortable situations

About Pat and Matt

Pat Flynn is a popular podcaster, author, and founder of several successful websites, including SmartPassiveIncome.com, where he helps people build thriving online businesses. He has been featured in Forbes and in the New York Times for his work. He calls himself “The Crash Test Dummy of Online Business” because he loves to put himself on the line and experiment with various business strategies so that he can report his findings publicly to his audience.

He is also the author of Let Go and Wall Street Journal bestseller Will It Fly?. He speaks on the topics of product validation, audience engagement, and personal branding. Pat is also an advisor to Pencils of Promise, a nonprofit organization dedicated to building schools in the developing world. Pat lives in San Diego with his wife April and their two children.

Matt Gartland is an entrepreneur, startup advisor, investor and the co-founder and CEO of SPI Media, where they help everyday people become experienced entrepreneurs through community-powered learning, connection, and support. He’s also the co-founder of Fusebox, as well as an advisor at several startups. He’s an expert when it comes to operations, finance, pricing, product development, and customer experience as well as empowering marketing and sales.

Resources Mentioned

Pat Flynn and Matt Gartland Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Pat and Matt, welcome.

Matt Gartland
It’s a thrill to be here.

Pat Flynn
What’s up, Pete? Great to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m thrilled to have you. I have been such a huge fan of Smart Passive Income for well over a decade. It’s surprising I haven’t tried to rope you in more often.

Pat Flynn
Well, maybe this will be the start of several roping-ins.

Pete Mockaitis
Be careful. Be careful what you promise, Pat. But why don’t you, why don’t we just kick it off? Can you orient us for those who are not as familiar, what is Smart Passive Income, your whole brand, website, channel, thing you got going on?

Pat Flynn
Yeah, I’ll start because it kind of began with me in 2008. I had gotten laid off from my dream job as an architect, and that was the only plan I had was to be an architect, and I got let go in 2008 with the Great Recession, didn’t know what I was going to do. And then through the interwebs, I discovered a podcast that taught me the idea of, “Well, I could start my own online business.” And I was like, “This is insane. Like, I didn’t go to business school. I don’t know how to do any of this stuff, but I had to survive somehow.”

So, I ended up building a website to help architects pass an exam called the LEED exam, a very niched, green building, sustainable design sort of exam, and it did really, really well. In about a year, it had generated over $238,000 in that first year, which was mind boggling. I didn’t even think that was possible, number one. But, number two, I thought at any moment in time, the SWAT team was going at me because it just didn’t feel like it was possible, like, I just I had no idea what was happening.

Pete Mockaitis
You’re making money too easily, “You’re under arrest for easy money.”

Pat Flynn
I was, like, I went to school for architecture, and I’ve spent all this money for schooling, and then here I was just, like, learning as I was going, and doing much better. It just didn’t make sense. Now when that happened, a lot of people were like, “Pat, tell us what happened. How did you do this?” I’m like, “I don’t know. I’m just to share what I did,” and that’s what I did.

I started a website called Smart Passive Income And then along the way, in 2013, I wrote my first book, and that’s where Matt and I crossed paths the first time because he was helping me edit that book, and I had just such a wonderful experience working with Matt then that we started working a little bit more closely together on projects.

I started to speak a lot more on stages, build more of a brand reputation in the personal brand space here. And then Matt and I tied the knot, if you want to call it that, in the late 20 teens, and have been working together ever since, and it’s just been fascinating. So, now we teach people, no matter what level they’re at, how to start a business online. So that’s the quick story from my end.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Pat and Matt, you have built an amazing thing, and I do know firsthand I am a longtime customer and fan, and so I recommend we’ll be linking it in the show notes and whatnot all your goodies. But this is not a podcast so much about creating cool online courses or building a dope YouTube channel, even though you’ve accomplished that.

But I want to talk to you, specifically, about the zone of confidence, imposter syndrome, because that comes up a lot for my listeners, and I know it also comes up a lot for your students, and they wonder, “Well, who am I? Who would ever want to pay money for my course? Or who might want to listen to me on a podcast, or watch me in a YouTube, or pay me hundreds, thousands of dollars for what I know in some sort of a package?”

And so, you’ve helped many people think about this, I think, pretty well and clearly. Not like, “No, you’re brilliant! No matter what you do, it will work and you’ll prosper and get rich!” Nor it’s like, “No, forget it! There’s no chance for you. Forget it! Who are you to say it?” Like, you really do a wise job, I think, of navigating this territory between under- and overconfidence, so I want to hear all about how we do that.

Pat Flynn
Yeah, this is a really important topic. I mean, whether you are going to become an entrepreneur or not, becoming entrepreneurial in the way that you think, in the way that you solve problems, in the way that you feel about yourself is really, really key. Obviously, if you are an entrepreneur and you don’t believe in what you have to offer, you’re not going to do a good job of selling it. Nobody’s going to believe you. And when it comes to the workforce, in your professional career, if you don’t believe in yourself, you’re not going to go anywhere either.

There is selling involved in who you are and the value that you have to offer your higher-ups in which you could provide the company, and those are all important things to understand. Yet, like an entrepreneur, we always get in our own way.

We are often, and this is where my story really began as an entrepreneur, is I had to let go of who I thought I was supposed to be in order to become who I was supposed to become. I had been trained to have everything be perfect. As an architect, especially, it’s like if you don’t build the building well, it could crush people, so you kind of need it to be perfect in the way you design things.

But when it came to being an entrepreneur, you can’t. You have to be imperfect. That’s the only way to progress is through failure and mistakes and learning as you go and figuring things out. And if I had to design my career, like I designed a building, I would still be designing it and not taking any action. But what I learned, and maybe this is where we start, is through all of this, relationships have been so, so key.

Knowing people and understanding what value means to them has been the most important thing to help me get to where I’m at today and will continue to help me as I move forward. It’s all about relationships. So, if you try to go through life and your career all on your own, it’s going to be very, very difficult. But when you start to understand the people part of this, it begins to unravel into a clearer path because, really, it’s about serving others.

And that includes in your work, your clients, obviously, but also your manager or your boss, and understanding what’s important to them and seeing how you might be able to position yourself as indispensable or providing some sort of value that only you can do because, either maybe that’s your expertise, or that’s what you train to do, or you figured something out, that without you, the company wouldn’t run in its optimal format.

So, there’s a lot to unpack here, I’m sure, but for any entrepreneur who knows what they’re doing, it’s about serving others first. And I think it’s the same thing when it comes to building your career. How can you be of service to others? Your value, your salary is often proportional to that.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that so much. And starting right there with that imperfect, I think that is probably a killer of starting quite often from the get-go. It’s like, “I don’t know how this is going to work. I don’t know if it is going to work. It might be kind of shoddy.” Take us into the right mindset for starting imperfectly. Like, what’s the wrong way to think about it, that’s going to kill any idea or momentum before it starts? And what’s the prudent ideal way to think about imperfection?

Pat Flynn
The idea of imperfection and failure has been ingrained to many of our heads since growing up, “If you don’t get an A, you’re doing it wrong,” or on your tests. It’s, “You have to be perfect or else.” And that’s a very tough position to be in. How could you possibly even learn to explore or try new things if that is the mindset you have going into something new?

You have to have the mindset of failing fast means learning faster. And I think that that is a huge thing to understand. The idea that as long as you understand that there is learning to be had, true failure is giving up, but worrying so much about what the result will be often stops people in their tracks. I make the success my actions, not the result of those actions, because I can’t always control the results. But I can control the actions I take.

And so, if there’s learning on those results, that means even if I fail, I am making progress, and sometimes, yes, you’ll have to communicate this with other people who are around you and other involved parties. But, mentally, introspection-wise, personally, I use to account all of my success on the results that the work that I did do, and that’s a very tough position to be in. Imagine doing the action, and then an algorithm or YouTube or somebody else says, “No, that’s incorrect,” or, “You did it wrong,” even though you know that you prepared yourself to do things correctly.

And so, it’s a very tough mental position to be in to consider your success, the results of what you do, versus, “I did the work. I showed up. I did my best, and I’m learning from my mistakes.” That is a win even if the result isn’t where you wanted it to be because you can’t necessarily always control the result, but you can always control your actions that you take now. The actions that you take today, turn into the story that you tell about yourself tomorrow.

Pete Mockaitis
Tweet that, Pat. That’s good.

Pat Flynn
Yeah, I’ll engrave that one in a wood plaque at some point. But, Matt, I’m curious your thoughts on this too, because you deal directly with a lot of students who are at that level, where they just are getting in their own way and they’re telling themselves stories about why this is not going to work. How do you coach people? You’ve coached several people in our community directly on those kinds of things.

Matt Gartland
I like how Pat kind of phrased it around entrepreneurial and how do we just kind of reframe sort of our headspace and then, therefore, our approach to relationships.

And it’s similar, but maybe a different way of teeing it up, which is not to expect an immediate reward, not to expect like, “Hey, I’m going to do a thing. I’m going to deliver value into a relationship,” especially a new relationship, and instantly expect, like, closing a sale, or getting a yes, or some sort of immediate gratification.

If we can lean into new relationships and be okay with the imperfection of like, “I’m not getting something immediately back,” and being okay with that, and I’m not saying that that’s easy, but just like the reps of practicing that, that is healthy relationship-building.

Like, just invest into them, deliver value, help them in some way, start to earn that trust. That works in any career. That works in a corporate environment, whether it’s with your supervisor or a cross-functional manager or partner or an executive in your company, if you work in retail. All of these different career pursuits and job types can, I think, improve if we initially detach the pursuit of, like, some sort of instant gratification or reward for my actions, and invest more into their success and just value delivery, I think is one of those really healthy, important kind of reframes on building relationships and getting more comfortable and, therefore, less maybe trapped in our own insecurities or imperfections, that headspace is not helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
Ooh, there’s so much there in terms of I like that headspace is when you are focused on serving and delivering value to the others, by definition, we’re no longer self-centered. “You lose yourself,” to quote Eminem, the best pump-up song ever, before entering a situation. So, you lose yourself and you’re not self-centered, you’re other-focused, giving value, and then a lot of the nervousness disappears. I’d love to hear a bit more about the success comes from the actions, not from the results.

We had B.J. Fogg on the show, talking about Tiny Habits, and he’s awesome. He told me that I was a natural celebrator. And I’m curious, if we find ourselves maybe getting a little bit hung up on the external results, the wins, the validations, the atta-boys, are there any methods or approaches you use to celebrate your actions or to bring your head back into the zone of, “No, no, this was a win, this was victory because I took the action here”?

Matt Gartland
I think that this is a part of the richer story of, like, finding jobs that speak to satisfaction and bring joy to our work

Just like doing good work with good people, trying to help in whatever sort of way that that makes sense in your own definition of an ideal job, I think, is a really kind of motivating force and can help us overcome mistakes and pitfalls and whatnot that will be true anywhere if we’re not doing those things. And, I think Pat said it earlier, like we’re not maybe trying hard enough or leaning into the opportunity to serve people and collaborate with others.

Pat Flynn
Also, I think it’s important, and you’d mentioned this briefly, Matt is the idea of the team and doing great work together with others. And part of a leader’s role, and I think everybody should, and it’s very entrepreneurial to be a leader, to see others who are there who might need your help or guidance, to also recognize the good work that they do. And I think it’s important in a communal situation, especially in a workplace, to recognize those who are doing work that may also often just be overlooked.

I remember when I was working in architecture, there was one person, Adrian was his name, he would always recognize the small things that I did that were good, and that reinforced me to want to do those things and other things even better, and those are things that the project managers would often sort of overlook. And that made sense because they weren’t directly working with me. Adrian was the job captain who was in charge of sort of my work and overseeing my stuff.

But recognizing things that were a little bit challenging, and even if I didn’t do them correctly, the fact that I tried and made progress on those things was good. It helped me want to make sure those things were even better the next time, and that’s really key. And we practice that inside of Team SPI as well, and we try to recognize those in our community at the same time and the good work that they do. Even those small things matter quite a bit.

It’s human nature to want to feel like you’re a part of something, and I think in the workforce that sometimes gets forgotten because there’s a job to do, but it’s still people talking with other people and connecting with other people, and the people sort of component of this is really key. And if you can set yourself up as a leader, which means a few things, being a leader means seeing and recognizing the work that other people do, like I just said.

But it’s also owning up to what your weaknesses are and what your mistakes are, and then seeing how others can fill in that gap, and you all working together toward a greater good or a common goal, or also working on those things that are weaker and just not pretending like you know everything, I think, is important, too. The good leader is the one who’s in the trenches with the community, not the one at the top of the mountain just yelling and telling everybody what to do, in my opinion.

And I think that energy inside of that workforce and that workspace is really important to just to understand. There’s no necessarily a barometer that measures the energy in the room. But there is a feeling, and I think it’s important to keep that as high as possible, the energy in the group.

Pete Mockaitis
I dig that a lot, and so props to Adrian. Thanks, Adrian. You’re awesome.

Pat Flynn
Yeah, thank you, Adrian.

Pete Mockaitis
If we’re lacking an Adrian in our workplaces, an unfortunate place to be, do you have any self-talk approaches or strategies? If we may, could we zoom into the conversations that you’re having with yourselves that you find helpful for persisting in the midst of these sorts of situations?

Pat Flynn
I’m reminded of a journal that I used to write in every single day, I did for three years until I moved on to a different system, but it’s called “The 5-Minute Journal.” And “The 5-Minute Journal” is an incredible sort of journal. Journaling is great. That’s a great way to be introspective and to learn and to kind of unpack things that may be happening throughout the day, but I always found that just like blank page journaling was very hard. I’m like, “Okay. Dear, Pat, here’s what your day was,” and then, like, I don’t know where to go.

But “The 5-Minute Journal” is nice because it breaks things down for you. When you start your day, you open this book, there’s already prompts, “What are three things that you’re grateful for today?” And I love starting the day with thinking about gratefulness because, no matter what happens, I know there’s something I can be grateful for, and it changes every day. I might be grateful for the food I have, or the fact that I get to drop off my kids at school every day. Whatever it might be, it changes.

But what’s really nice is at the end of the day, I can look back before I go to bed and I can write three things that I’m proud of myself for actually accomplishing. No matter big or small, I know I made some sort of progress, and it could be as small as the fact that I made my bed in the morning, to the fact that we just finished this million-dollar project and the client loved it. Just to have that documented and to kind of put it on paper allows us to process these things.

And the additional component of “The 5-Minute Journal,” Also asks you, “What are three things that you could have improved on today that you’re going to hopefully improve in the future?” And it might be, “Oh, you know, I was a little bit of a jerk to my coworker today. I’m going to work on that tomorrow. Cool.” “I didn’t work on my health and fitness today. I just ate McDonald’s all day, so I’m going to try to work on that.”

And, again, it becomes a place to document these things, and it’s really amazing to go back into time and read these things, and it kind of helps you remember that, (a) you have all these amazing things to be grateful for, no matter what’s happening, and (b) you are always looking to see how you might be able to incrementally improve tiny habits, just like you said, over time, and that’s one device that I would recommend people check out if you’re into that thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, very good. I think we had a psychologist, Dr. Ellen Reed, saying these exact sorts of prompts so they’re good, they are science-approved that they really do get you into an awesome, what’s the word, it’s like a nice virtuous cycle in terms of, “Okay, we got some gratitude, we got some pride, we got some improvement, and up and up and up and up, and self-confidence rises,” and it’s a beautiful thing.

Matt Gartland
I’ll add, if I can, two additional thoughts on that, I think that’s great. One is to preemptively surround yourself with people when you need them, whether that takes the form of a mastermind group, at least as we think about those in online communities, whether that is a collection of your neighbors in your local community. I’m privileged to have some really awesome neighbors that we’ve gotten close and we hang out a good bit these days.

Or, even a variety of different small kind of addressable groups, because we’re all going to have bad days or bad weeks, and these things are not always, per se, work-driven, or career-driven, like, life of course intersects us all the time.

So, if you can build into those relationships, which kind of, of course now, kind of folds back on the power of relationships and intentionality with which we’re investing value into relationships, then lean on them when you have a low moment and you need some re-encouragement, if it’s a super bad day, because you know that it’s going to come back around. One of those friends and colleagues or partners is going to need that of you.

And then you go through that cycle enough times, you’ll learn one of the most obvious truths ever, which is we’re all going to have hard moments at any scale of success, no matter what number is in your bank account or what size house you live in or all these other maybe, like, attributes of success or claims of success. Like, we all struggle with stuff, and people are people. So, if you can build it with the right people, and if you’re surrounding yourself with people that share your kind of a common set of values, and you nurture into that, that safety net is there when you need it.

Pete Mockaitis
That is huge. I’ve got a podcast mastermind group and a church men’s group and, of course, just friends and neighbors, and it’s huge. So great reminder. All right. Beautiful. So, let’s say we’ve got these foundations in place. We’re going to start imperfect. That’s cool. We’re going to do some journaling and thoughtfulness associated with celebrating the daily successes. We got supportive relationships. Cool, cool, cool.

Well, let’s say, yeah, we’re going to embark upon this thing that we found kind of scary. Maybe it’s a big new project. We’re not sure if folks are going to embrace it at work or it’s maybe our own side hustle, our own project. What are some of your pro tips on taking the first real steps in the exterior world that are likely to be prudent and not too risky, not too un-risky?

Matt Gartland
Especially through the entrepreneurial lens but I think this works in so many other contexts, is to develop a range of skills borne of a range of diverse perspectives, which is in contrast to just being too narrow and maybe even almost too hyper-specialized with one discrete skill or focal point.

With small business, especially if you’re working for yourself and you’re not a venture-backed tech company, then you’re probably doing a lot of this stuff. You’re trying to think about your marketing and positioning. You’re trying to design the product or service. You’re doing fulfillment, like the actual delivery of that work or build that thing. You’re maybe even doing a little bit of sales, business development, building relationships, maybe some partnerships.

And if you lean into that with joy, if you lean into that with like an adventurous sort of mindset, like, “Look, like that’s actually a good thing. If I can develop a broader range of skills that gives me more confidence…” to go back to the theme of confidence, “…and, like, being able to do the thing, whether, again, it’s a side hustle or a small business on my own, or even just a big project at work.”

And there’s a great book that kind of encapsulates a lot of the thinking by David Epstein called Range, and he pulls from a crazy amount of industry and science, and even athletes, professional athletes, to kind of make the case and tell these stories, which is, like, if you can have more range of ability, you can think faster, make sharper decisions, your instincts are improved, you’ll enjoy the process more, you’ll probably have outsized performance as a result, and, therefore, set yourself up for a higher degree of probability for success.

Pete Mockaitis
We had David Epstein on the show talking Range, and it’s good. We’ll link to it in the show notes.That’s beautiful. That confidence often comes from, “Yeah, sure enough, I’ve done this before in a lot of different contexts, and, boom, we got this under control.”

Pat Flynn
From my perspective, I love the idea of what I like to call a voluntary force function. A force function is something that kind of forces you to do something, and a voluntary one is you put yourself in that situation on purpose. And I have a perfect story to share about when I was still in architecture, where I, in fact, got a promotion and a raise as a result of putting myself in a situation that was slightly higher pressure than I would just be otherwise because I voluntarily put myself into that situation.

So, thankfully, I was with Adrian out in Orlando. We were meeting with the Hilton regional director for all Hilton hotels on the East Coast, so he was like a bigwig in the world of hotels. The division in the architecture firm I was at was hospitality. So, we built hotels, restaurants, that sort of thing, and I was just like the grunt in the room. I was just there to take notes and to follow along. I was sort of almost like intern status even though I was getting paid. It was very early on in my career.

There was a point in the middle of this conversation where they wanted to redesign a lot of the hotel rooms and kind of make them a little bit more modern, and there was a tool that had just come out called V-Ray that was a 3D modeling tool that allowed you to have photorealistic versions. This was early 2000s, by the way, so it was like before all the neat fancy easy-to-use computer-related programs came out. This was like early, early when it came to that stuff.

And the regional director said, “Hey, does anybody know how to use V-Ray in the room? I want to see what these rooms are going to look like before we make these final decisions,” and the room was completely silent. Nobody raised their hand. I had heard of V-Ray before. So, I don’t know what it was in me, I put my hand up and I said, “I can make this 3D renderings for you.” He’s like, “Son, you were in the back quiet the whole time. Who are you?” “Well, I’m Pat Flynn. I’m just a drafter here at MBH Architects.” “Cool. I look forward to seeing those renderings in about a month.”

And Adrian looks at me, he’s like, “Are you kidding me? You don’t know how to do that?” And I said, “I’m going to figure it out.” And I did. I had enough. Like, that was all I could think about because I had so much pressure on me to figure it out that, guess what, not only did I figure it out, I became the example for so many other people in the office on how to use this program. I even taught workshops on how to use this program. I wasn’t an expert, but I knew enough to do what I needed to do to get those drawings out there.

And just last year, I went into my dad’s storage unit because he wanted me to get some stuff out there from the past, and I found those renderings and it just brought back all these memories of the heightened pressure I was in, yes, but just how great it was to accomplish something that I didn’t even think was possible, because I put myself in that little bit of a higher-pressure situation. It’s almost like if you want to learn a language, what’s the best way to learn a new language? You literally buy a plane ticket and spend a month in that country. You’re going to figure it out because you have to kind of thing.

And I think a lot of us often will try to sit in complacency when it comes to our work and our life. Comfort is great, but comfort doesn’t help us grow. All the best and most awesome things happen outside of that comfort zone. So, there might be something in your audience’s head right now that they might be thinking, “Well, what if I were to put myself in that position?” Well, what if? What would happen? And also, what’s the worst-case scenario? Probably not as bad as the best thing that can happen if you take action and you are compelled to do it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s really well said. As I suppose the worst-case scenario is you fire up V-Ray, and you go, “Oh, shoot, this was vastly more difficult than I expected.” But on the flip side, I imagine you’d say, “Hey, I’ve learned new software packages and platforms before, and I am an architect. Though I don’t know it yet, how brutally challenging can it really be?” especially if you’ve got, you don’t need it tomorrow, you’ve got some time on your hands.

Pat Flynn
And it’s not impossible. That’s the other thing. A lot of times we assume things are impossible, or, “I would never be able to do that,” but that’s just a story we’re telling ourselves based on past experiences. But when you break it down to first principles, like Elon Musk does with things, you can eventually build a rocket that can go into space and land itself, which nobody thought was possible.

But you start to strip things down to the absolute truths and realize that, “Well, maybe it is possible and maybe I can do this. And if somebody else has done it before, then it’s absolutely true that it’s possible. I just need to figure it out and talk to the right people, make the right calls, do all these actions that I wouldn’t have normally taken because I wasn’t in this slightly higher-pressure situation.”

And that helped me account for a raise, a promotion. Like, it led all the way to where I am now, the butterfly effect, so.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I love that story so much. And, Pat, if we are not so fortunate as to be in a meeting with a bigwig who asks a question that’s just floating in the air waiting for us to grab, any pro tips or fun ideas for how we can bring the forcing situation upon ourselves?

Pat Flynn
It reminds me of Noah Kagan from OkDork. He was number, I don’t know, nine at Facebook or something and then he got fired. But then he wanted to work for Mint.com, and he applied for a marketing position there and he didn’t get it. So, he said, “No, I know I can help this company. I’m just going to come up with a marketing plan and make it on my own. I’m going to write a 10-page report on the way that I would market Mint if I was here. Even though I didn’t get hired, I’m just going to give them my plan because I know it’s that good.”

And he did that. He didn’t have to, but he did, he volunteered to do it, and then they hired him because it just showed that he really, truly knew exactly what he was talking about. So, in a way, it’s an understanding of, “Okay, what is of value to said company, said person, whoever it might be that the decision-maker is, and then giving them that value, like, go and do the thing?”

So, if I didn’t have a bigwig, if I was proactive in thinking about what would be valuable to Hilton or this company or my work at the time, I might have already had that idea to make a V-Ray version of this even if I wasn’t prompted to because it matched that level of “What is value to who is the decision-maker right now?” So, exploring and going out there, and asking and understanding what it means to, you know, a lot of us when we’re working somewhere, we don’t really know how the work we do affects everything else that it leads to.

I think the more you can begin to understand your role in what it is that you do and why it matters, then you can lean into those things that you then bring to the company more than if you’d kind of just did the bullet-point list on your job description.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Pat, I love that so much with the Noah Kagan story. It reminds me, also we had Ramit Sethi on the show talk about the briefcase technique. Like, in an interview, he was like, “Oh, let me show you. I went ahead and did the thing.”

So, what’s cool about that is you combine those elements of, “Okay, but think about a person and what’s of value to them. And, hey, here’s a date in which I’m going to be speaking with that person. Well, hey, it looks like I’ve now got some pressure in terms of a deadline. I should go ahead and make the thing before I meet with that person.”

And, Matt, I wanted to follow up with your perspective. You’ve got some views when it comes to people, relationships, being of value. How do you think about that in a way that’s just been really transformational for you?

Matt Gartland
Well, even in Pat’s examples, like the power of story infused with doing of the thing, I think if you can do both in the right context, that’s a positive double whammy. So, yeah, do the thing, take initiative, but then add a story layer to it. Communicate your thought process. How and why did you come up with, maybe with the Noah example, why did you come up with the type of marketing plan that he did? It’s not just the fact that he did one, but it’s he created a specific one borne of his own creative thinking, his own imagination, his own story.

So, if you can, in your own situation, think about the “what.” The “what” is the thing to do, but also then, like, the “why” in the story, and it kind of brings your own personality into it. That’s how you get sticky. That’s how, like, “Oh, like, Matt Gartland or Pat Flynn,” or, like, your name gets associated with the thing more than just, like, “Oh, this is a nice plan. I’m going to go implement the plan. I kind of forget who actually did it.”

So I’d figure out like what that story wrapper is around the thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I’d love that concept of the story wrapper around the thing, it enhances it. I’m thinking back in the day when I was consulting, I had plans to leave consulting and start my own business, and so I had created this savings spreadsheet, just like personal savings of money, like, “Okay, how can I make it so dirt simple to know how much money I should be saving?” And so, I thought, “Okay, just input your base expenses and then see how much do you want to save, by what time. And then here’s how much you have left to play around with.” And so, that’s all I got to know.

It’s like, “Okay, spend less than $80 a day on random fun things, like tacos or whatever, and we’re good.” So, I shared that with a few of my colleagues, and they thought it was cool because they’re consultants and they like spreadsheets. But you’re right, when you added the story around it, it became legendary.

And when I left, and folks were talking about, “Oh, Pete, bye. We’re going to miss you, and your legendary savings spreadsheet will live on,” because there was a story like, “Oh, yeah, I want to leave this consulting and go be a speaker, author, something. I love developing people skills stuff and I’m going to figure that out, and I’m going to need some savings because I don’t know what I’m doing yet.”

Matt Gartland
Yeah, I think that’s exactly it.

Pat Flynn
So good.

Matt Gartland
And maybe as another intersection that’s adjacent to the thought is, “Can you do something that maybe the other person,” or if it is a bigwig, “they don’t want to do or it’s not their cup of tea?” So, like the classic maybe phrasing of one person’s garbage is another man’s treasure, kind of adapting of the metaphor here, but at least in the entrepreneurial world is maybe a better example.

There’s a lot of energy about being a visionary and coming up with ideas and being the idea person, and that’s really important work, to be clear. But, especially, then down the line, though, there’s need for operations and integrations and systems and finances, and all of these other things that come around.

And, at least, if you look at it on paper, if you read a book, maybe like Gino Wickman’s book, Rocket Fuel, as one reference point, there’s a whole other set of value in responsibilities and work to do that. Maybe, like, in this context, a visionary doesn’t want to do, and especially if you are maybe naturally wired to be that person, can you feel out those opportunities to do the other side of the coin, add value in this other way, create an opportunity by taking on an initiative, or lean into an opportunity and create that opportunity for yourself by doing so that kind compliments the other side, compliments the other person or the other team in an organization?

I wouldn’t say force yourself into something that you don’t want to do. That’s not what I’m trying to articulate, but rather it’s, like, if you are naturally gifted and can lean into an opportunity that someone else maybe doesn’t want to do, I mean, there’s an opening right there, and then add together, kind of stack these ideas, find that opening, take initiative to create a thing, put a story wrapper around it. Gosh, I think if you did those three things in combination, that’s a massive winning advantage.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that so much. And now I’m thinking about my colleague, Anne, at my other company, Cashflow Podcasting, and it’s funny, there’s been a couple of times where I’ve just “vision-arily,” I guess, just thrown out an idea, and then she comes back with such beautifully detailed spreadsheets. I was like, “Hey, I think our website could really be improved here, here, here.”

And then she’s like, “Okay, so here is an in-depth creative brief about all of the strengths and weaknesses associated with our competitors’ page in which they are doing the job better than we are doing, and how I’d like to adapt this and that.” And I was like, “Oh, wow.” It’s, like, I didn’t want to do all that. I just wanted the page to be beautiful and more effective. But then she just did the hustle, the legwork of the detailed bit-by-bit, “This is what excellence can look like,” and it was oh so delightful to me.

Matt Gartland
Yeah, that’s an amazing example. I think that’s spot on.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Pat and Matt, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about a few of your favorite things?

Pat Flynn
One thing comes to mind when it comes to entrepreneurship, I think it’s important, especially when you want to be a leader, when you want to be a teacher, there’s so much information out there now. Information is now not the valuable thing anymore.

So, we have to think beyond the information or beyond the work that you do, and it’s the brand that you create around the work that you do. That involves how you interact with people, but also that involves what you stand for. What are your beliefs and your values that you bring here that support the company that you work for? Because those are the things that become the people-to-people connection.

We connect with other people, and I think that the more you can show up as a human, and that means taking a position on something, that means taking a stand for something you believe in, that also supports the company’s values, and really kind of not just doing the work that, eventually, and it’s a scary time right now with like AI. AI is going to take a lot of jobs and it’s going to do a lot of work that is just kind of commoditized, and everybody’s doing the same thing.

So, it is the human-to-human interaction that is going to be the differentiator. So, it’s important to work on who you are and how you then can mold into the business that you’re in and to the company that you’re in, in a way that’s beyond just, “Here’s what I was hired to do. Here is the value beyond that that I can bring to the company, the relationships, the energy, the positioning that we have, and the mission that we’re on together.”

And I think it was Zig Ziglar who said, “You can have anything in life that you want so long as you help other people get what they want.” And so, I’ll finish there because that’s one of my favorite quotes and I try to live by that.

Matt Gartland
For me, it’s the notion of letting go, which is kind of ironically, and it’s fun to say, like the first project Pat and I worked on, which is the title of his memoir book. Like, if you want to keep growing, pursuing new opportunities, you’re going to have to let go of the thing that got you there. Like, maybe it’s the job in pursuit of a different job, maybe that requires a small leap of faith.

Whether it’s maybe going out and starting your own business. I mean, any sort of reference point to get to the next thing, and the next thing that is maybe a little more meaningful. It’s not maybe an incremental point of growth. It’s maybe a little more towards exponential. It’s going to take some of that, again, courage, overcoming some imperfection tendencies, and some of the other things that we’ve discussed today, to let go of that thing, even if it’s been awesome and successful, and it’s even a big part of your identity up until this point, especially from a career standpoint, to do something new and exciting, maybe a little bit bold.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Well, now in rapid-fire, could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Pat Flynn
“Whether you think you can or you can’t, you’re right.” Ford.

Matt Gartland
All right. I’ll use “Give to Grow,” which is the title of a friend’s new book that’s coming out all about investing in people, and we’ve hit on some of those themes today. So, give to grow, and good things will happen.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Pat Flynn
Right now, Dark Matter. It’s the latest one that I read, and I don’t read a ton of fiction, and I really loved it. And it’s now, I guess, an episodic series on Apple.

Matt Gartland
All right. I’m a proud father of two little girls, so it’s a parenting book, but The Anxious Generation is just a masterful read for me.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Jonathan Haidt.

Matt Gartland
He’s a parent. Yes, exactly. And I think there’s just a lot of crossovers into society and how we think about just the intersection of work and life, and mobile devices being at the center of a lot of that. So, it’s a fantastic read on a lot of levels.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your jobs?

Matt Gartland
Notecards.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Matt Gartland
It’s just such a great tool. Simple. You can have multiple versions. Carry them with you everywhere. Get ideas down, plot out a plan. So, notecards.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Pat Flynn
For me, kind of similar, Post-it notes. I use it to plan everything, like literally everything. Our brains do a good job of coming up with ideas but not necessarily organized or in the correct order. So, I like to get everything out there using Post-it notes, one idea per note, and then that’s where I rearrange things. I use that to write my books, create courses, outline my YouTube videos, podcast episodes. So, it’s like a notecard except there’s a little sticky edge on it. So, me and Matt are pretty similar in that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Pat Flynn
I think about a few things that I’m grateful for the moment I wake up.

Matt Gartland
Sleep habit is mine. Just when I go to bed and try to get into a healthy circadian rhythm so that I’m waking up as refreshed and as energized as I can be, because if I have that, everything works better throughout the day.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that you’re known for, a Matt or Pat original quotation?

Pat Flynn
“You got to be cringe before they binge.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that sounds accurate.

Matt Gartland
That’s pretty good.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Matt Gartland
So SmartPassiveIncome.com is just our site at large, but as we’ve kind of shared, or at least at the top, the community is the center point of everything that we invest into and care about the most because we know it works. We see it every day. So, you can go to SmartPassiveIncome.com/all-access to check out our All-Access Pass, which is just a perfect kind of on-ramp to all of our work.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a final challenge or call to action for those looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Pat Flynn
I challenge you to get a little uncomfortable. If you’ve been complacent, but you’ve been looking to grow, where might that next level be in that realm of a little bit of discomfort, one sort of step outside of that comfort zone? I think, typically, when I run this exercise with students, they already know what that is because they’ve been wanting to do it, they’ve just been scared.

And this is just a call to action to go and make that happen because, here’s another quote to finish off that relates to this, that is a Pat Flynn original, “I would rather live a life full of ‘Oh, wells’ than a life full of ‘What ifs’.” Those regrets are going to haunt you, so you might as well take action and see what happens.

Matt Gartland
And I would say, go say hello or introduce yourself to one person that you know that you should know as a part of your network, as a part of maybe even your inner circle, and you haven’t because of XYZ mental figment of your imagination. So, it takes some more courage to do that, but, yeah, go say hello to that person.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Matt and Pat, this has been delightful. Keep on doing the great stuff you’re doing.

Matt Gartland
You as well, Pete.

Pat Flynn
Thanks so much, Pete. You, too.

Matt Gartland
Thanks a ton. This was great.

Sep 23
0

996: Tackling Work Stressors and Transitions with Dr. Tessa West

By | Podcasts | One Comment

 

Tessa West shares her method for making the necessary changes that lead to greater job satisfaction.

You’ll Learn

  1. How your body tells you when it’s time to change jobs
  2. How to not be overwhelmed by the stresses at work 
  3. The hidden curriculum that helps you succeed at work 

About Tessa

Tessa West is a Professor of Psychology at New York University and a leading expert in the science of interpersonal communication. Her work focuses on questions such as, why is it so hard to give honest, critical feedback? and how do class, race, and cultural differences make communication in the workplace so difficult, and what can we do to improve it?

Tessa’s work has been covered by Scientific American, the New York Times, ABC World News, TIME, Harper’s Bazaar, the Financial Times, Forbes, CNBC, CNN, The Guardian, The Globe and Mail, Bloomberg, Strategy and Business, and the US Supreme Court. She has appeared on the Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore, CNN, and Good Morning America, and is a regular contributor to the Wall Street Journal. She is the author of the book Jerks at Work: Toxic Coworkers and What To Do About Them and the upcoming Job Therapy: Finding Work That Works For You. 

Resources Mentioned

Tessa West Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Tessa, welcome back.

Tessa West
Thank you so much for having me back. I’m super excited.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I am excited to talk about your book, Job Therapy, and I just think we’ve got to hear of a job story you had at a Hollywood Video. Lay it on us.

Tessa West
All right. When I was in high school, I worked at Hollywood Video, which for you, young people, is a place where you would actually physically go to rent a movie in VHS format, which I don’t think even exists anymore. And I had this amazing manager who was dealing coke from the back room.

Pete Mockaitis
Cocaine. Illegal drug.

Tessa West
Yeah, cocaine. Cocaine from the back room, and, also, was probably stealing from the cash register. And we all got fired one day, corporate came in and axed us all. And this was a little bit of a problem for me because when I went to college at UC Santa Barbara, I was just blacklisted from all Hollywood Videos, and that was kind of the only video rental store in the neighborhood where I lived. And so, I could never rent from them again. I not only lost my job because of the cocaine-dealing boss, but I also could never open an account in a Hollywood Video ever again, and that just totally cramped my style for, like, the four years I was in college.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now I’m imagining you like hanging out outside the Hollywood Video, it’s like, “Hey, hey, Mister, can you rent me a movie?”

Tessa West
Totally. I’m like, “I’ll pay you an extra dollar. You give me, like, the latest new release wall,” whatever came out. I think it was “The Negotiator” came out, and I was pretty bummed. Yeah, it was not great.

Pete Mockaitis
So, they thought you were involved in these illegal activities, but you were just around him.

Tessa West
I was 16. I mean, I knew some shady stuff was going on in the back room. There were times I wasn’t allowed back there. But it’s a minimum-wage teenager job, and it was just much easier for corporate to just come in, clean house, fire all of us, instead of sort of interrogating who was involved and who wasn’t.

And I think a lot of people kind of end up getting caught in these situations at work where there’s a baddie and they get sucked into all that drama, and it’s just much easier to fire all 20 employees and just start fresh than to figure out who’s guilty of dealing the cocaine, or aiding and abetting in the cocaine dealing, or whatever.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. You know, it’s amazing that last time we talked about bad bosses and toxic coworkers, and this didn’t even come up.

Tessa West
I know. This isn’t even my worst boss. This is like my 10th worst boss. The weird part was I didn’t even really care until I couldn’t rent there anymore. That’s when I got pissed.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, we’re talking now about your book Job Therapy: Finding Work That Works for You. So, I guess that’s one tip, avoid Hollywood Video and cocaine-dealing bosses as a first piece on the checklist. But you have much more wisdom, I know, than that to share with us. Could you kick us off with anything that’s particularly surprising that you’ve discovered here?

Tessa West
Yes, I think a lot of us have really mixed feelings about our jobs. I was surprised when I interviewed people for this book at how ambivalent people feel. It was a lot kind of in the air with people being really miserable at work, tons of Gallup polls, all that business of everyone wants to quit, no one’s happy. But when I actually sat down with people, they would talk out of both sides of their mouth, “I love this job.” “I hate this job.”

“I’m totally committed to this job. It’s what defines me. It’s my identity. But I fantasize about doing this other thing that’s completely different from that. But just to remind you, Tessa, during this interview, I really do love this job. I promise.” And so, you see kind of those mixed emotions you see when people are thinking about any kind of relationship they have, even if that’s with a parent that they have a fraught relationship with, or a romantic relationship.

It’s kind of this love, hate, back and forth, hot, cold business that I think a lot of us are actually struggling with, which is much more realistic than just people loving or hating something or wanting to quit. I think there’s just a lot of kind of ambivalence out there.

Pete Mockaitis
Ooh, that really resonates and hits home with regard to, it is a mixed bag, every job, every relationship. I’m reminded of a comedian who talked about the city of Chicago, which is like, “The long, cold, miserable winters,” and say, “What are you doing here? You should just leave. You should just leave,” like a bad relationship. He’s like, “No, you should see how Chicago treats me in the summer.”

Tessa West
Yeah, New Yorkers are the same, we’re like, “I hate this place but I really couldn’t live anywhere else because every other place I would hate even more, but I really do hate it here.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, what a complicated relationship we have then with our jobs. How do we even begin to unpack then whether we are in our New York of a job or we really do need to get out of here?

Tessa West
I really think the only way to really unpack this is to measure your feelings for a while. I’m a scientist, so I’m a huge fan of collecting data on yourself, and really doing it, not just trying to recall how you feel, or how you felt over the past month, because I think a lot of us fall victim to some of the basic biases that we fall victim to when we’re falling out of love with a person.

So, we’re super sensitive to things like intermittent reinforcement. When we’re questioning our careers, if your boss is really nice to you, or maybe you just get an added bonus you didn’t expect. That actually makes you feel a hundred times better about your job than it probably should because you’re in this fragile place, and so you don’t actually realize that you’re falling victim to these kinds of things, that you’re overly-sensitive to reinforcement when you’re questioning your career, that you’re misremembering how you were treated or how you felt.

The only way to really get a handle on that is to look for consistency in how you feel and to measure yourself for a couple of weeks, or even up to a month, and really look for those patterns. And so, in this book, I just put a ton of questionnaires that have been vetted and created by psychologists, and really try to help people play scientists to their own experience so that they can understand it from almost like a third-party perspective, from an objective observer’s perspective, to kind of remove some of those biases that we’re all going to fall victim to when we start questioning something, when we start falling out of love with something.

Pete Mockaitis
Very intriguing. So then, as we measure things, well, I’m tempted to go into all kinds of detail about how we do that, and let’s do some of that. I’m thinking about dating again, in terms of, there are folks, it’s like, yes, they would love to date the super-rich, super brilliant, super gorgeous, super hilarious, super kind, whatever mythical human that doesn’t actually exist. And if that person did, they’d probably wouldn’t want to be with you. No offense. No offense, Tessa. You’re delightful.

But I mean, when I hear people, sometimes I’ve heard those who are single and not yet settled down, it’s like, “Well, you know, I just haven’t met the person.” “Well, what are you looking for?” It’s like, “Oh, well, I don’t think that person is real or exists.” I think, likewise, we can do that with our jobs, it’s like, “Oh, I guess I just haven’t really found the perfect job yet or the one of a job yet.”

So can you just maybe give us some very rough guidelines in terms of, “If you’re in this kind of zone, probably wrong job, get out of there. If you’re in this kind of zone, you got it pretty good, you know. And if you’re in if you’re looking for this kind of zone, I’m sorry that’s not real”? Can you just kindly orient us to reality for a bit?

Tessa West
Yes, I’m happy to do that. I studied dating and relationships, too, so you will hear all those metaphors come out of my mouth today. So, I think the first thing is, you need to really think seriously about what stresses you out at work, and how much you can anticipate those stressors. The number one reason why people are actually miserable at work is because they, (a), can’t anticipate stressors, or they’re doing a bad job at it. Most of the time, we actually can, if we write it down, see it coming.

And, (b), they’re very bad at bouncing back from how those stressful situations impact their productivity, their sleep, and their other relationships. And so, if you are in a job where, if you say in the morning, think about what’s going to stress you out, in the evening, write down what actually stressed you out, and you can’t predict that.

And those unanticipated stressors screw up your communication with your spouse, make you task-switch too much, make you self-interrupt, interfere with your ability to communicate, all these kinds of distal outcomes, you’re in a bad place. I don’t care how great the job is on paper, unanticipated stressors, and your inability to kind of put stopgaps in place and prevent the bleed from that stressful event to your productivity and to your other aspects of your life that you care about, you’re in trouble.

And that’s different for everyone. For some people, that’s being interrupted all the time. They can’t control the flow of work. For other people, it’s just being late. They can’t stand it when they can’t control how long it’s going to take them to drive to work and where they’re going to park. So, you have to figure out what those triggers are. And I think most of us don’t actually put enough weight on low-level daily stressors and how much they impact us, but they really can screw you up because they can affect your sleep, how often you get colds, your diet, and all of this other stuff that has nothing to do with work, that then feeds back into work.

So, I’d say measure those things. That’s kind of, you know, it really comes down to control over those things. I’d say the other dimension that really matters is how identified you want to be with your career, how much you want it to define you, and how much that career is loving you back. And if there’s a huge mismatch, if you are, like, in love with this career, it’s everything to you, when it’s going well, you feel good, when it’s going poorly, you feel terrible, and it’s just not giving you those signs that it’s loving you as much as you want to love it, it’s an unrequited love situation. That’s a bad place to be.

I think, and, again, all of us can be, we can find that match in different places. Anchoring just on income and things like that, I think is a mistake, as you talked about, you know, finding the model who’s funny and rich, there’s going to be a mismatch there because you’re going to fall in love with that person and they’re not going to love you back.

So, I’d say that identity match and control over your stressors, those are the main things. I think if you have those things in check, you can kind of play around with those other dimensions and find happiness at work. But those are really those things that are kind of deal breakers, I think, for most people.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s really intriguing to zero in on these elements. Because it sounds like, is it fair to say, in your research, these trump the other things in terms of, I say, “Hey, you know what? I find my job meaningful. I find it challenging. I enjoy my co-workers. I feel like I’m learning and growing and attaining mastery. Like, I’ve got a lot of good things that make this job good”? But, if the stressor situation and the identity situation isn’t working for me, is that enough to just outweigh it and say, “I should probably get out of here”?

Tessa West
Definitely the stressors are. I think the things you just mentioned feed into the identity. So, if your colleagues love you, if you’re finding purpose in the work, the job is probably loving you back as much as you’re loving it. And so, I’d see those as sort of like an outcome of that identity match, “You know, I feel highly identified with this job and it’s bringing me satisfaction.” Both pieces of identity are important. You need to feel satisfied with that identity and also feel like you’re getting something from it.

And then when you have those pieces, you love your coworkers, you’re willing to kind of step in at 10:00 p.m. and do the extra thing because you feel like the job is loving you back, so those are outcomes of those things. Stressors are like throwing wrenches into all of those things, “I have great communication at work, but I never know how long it’s going to take me to get there. And some days I get there an hour early, and it’s great. Other times, I get there an hour late and I’m sweating and stressed the rest of the day.” Those things absolutely throw a wrench in the relationship with your career.

So, I think you just really have to pay attention to those things, and don’t let yourself be talked out of them because the income is good, because the comp package is good, and people do this with relationships, “I’m dating a rich guy. Who cares if he treats me like crap.” It does, it matters. You’re not going to care about the money when he’s yelling at you or calling you ugly. You’re just not. And the same is true at work.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you give us a rundown of some of these unanticipated stressors that pack a big punch and show up all the time for folks?

Tessa West
I think the main ones are things like your boss shows up and puts a meeting on your calendar that you didn’t plan for. Commute is another huge one that people can’t stand. Senior leadership showing up. Absorbing the roles of other people. So, I did a study for this book based on an NPR kind of short called “Nobody Told Me That,” where I asked people what are the biggest surprises they encountered at work.

And it’s almost always, “I was hired to do X and now I’m doing Y. I was hired to showcase art in a gallery but really all I do is lift 120-pound boxes of art, but no one told me that like lifting heavy objects was part of the job.” And those kinds of, like, tack-on tasks are super common at work. I think 80% of us are doing them, but they take away from your job. They often have nothing to do with what gets you promoted, and they’re super stressful because you don’t know how to fit them into your job.

And so, you have to do a lot of digging to kind of figure out if those are going to crop up. But those unanticipated extra roles or jobs of the person who called in sick, or they fire the person who’s in charge of that, those are huge, and they tend to be small asks, 10-, 20-minute asks, not heavy lifts, but they really eat into people’s wellbeing. And you can feel your blood pressure going up when you’re in the middle of something and someone comes and asks you to do one of these things, like lifting a heavy box for them that you did not sign up for.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, these are the kinds of stressors. And then, I’m curious, just how much is too much? I mean, it sounds like every job is going to have a little bit of ebb and flow and unpredictability. How do we make that determination?

Tessa West
The best way to do this isn’t to ask yourself, “Have I hit my wall?” It’s to actually map out what the outcomes of those stressors are. And so, our instinct is to think about the things that stress us out and then try to kind of reframe them in a positive way, “Yes, I had to lift that heavy box, but this is part of what it takes to climb up at work.”

I urge you not to try to do that kind of reframing exercise. Instead, measure how often you’re lifting those heavy boxes, and measure your sleep every night. If what you find is, if you have three days in a row of, say, an unexpected stressor, a late commute, a calendar invite with no notice, a heavy box, and then you can see that, say, for the next five days your sleep is screwed up, this is what happens to me, my unanticipated stressors are cumulative.

One, I’m fine; two or more, I don’t sleep for a week, that’s when you know you’re in trouble, and so you really have to see those associations. Don’t assume you know what they are because they’re often a little bit distal. The way stressors work is they tend to not impact us immediately. They tend to be cumulative and distal.

So, if you’re stressed out right now, you’re going to get a cold in two weeks. That’s how long it takes for your immune system to take the hit, for it to get down, for you to get infected with something, for you to be symptomatic. So, we often don’t see the connection between the stressor and the outcome. The only way to know is to measure it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, let’s talk about these measurings. So, one is sleep, and I’m sporting an Oura ring right now, and that’s cool. Or you could have a Fitbit or Apple Watch or something or just notice, “Hey, that sleep was short. I woke up at 5:00 a.m. against my will. What’s that about?” Or, “I went to bed at 11:00, and somehow didn’t end up actually falling asleep until much later.”

So, you just sort of, you notice. Sleep is worse, outside my control. It’s not like I was having the time of my life partying somewhere and I got to bed late. But rather, my body just did not comply with my sleep request. So, there’s one indicator. What are some of the other things we should be observing and tracking?

Tessa West
Weird diet, skipping meals, eating junk food, eating your feelings, drinking, those types of things. Low-level conflict is another one that we often see. So, if you have, say, two or three days of low-level stressors at work, you’re going to end up fighting more with your kids, with your spouse. You’re going to yell at your kid for watching too much iPad, those kinds of things, which in the moment, you have a reason, “My kid was really grinding me. He refused to put down the iPad, so I yelled at him.”

The real reason is, “You know, I had a fight with my boss this morning, and I never came down from that kind of cortisol boost, and now I’m exhausted. I have no ability to sort of cognitively override that,” so low-level conflict at home. And then the other kind of unanticipated one is self-interruptions at work. So, I have a chapter in my book called “The Torn Between Places,” where I figured out that most of the time when we are interrupted at work, we do it to ourselves.

We self-distract. We check our phones. We minimize windows to open other windows. We shop on Zoom calls. And we often do this when we are cognitively depleted, meaning like we’re out of mental resources to not do it. And when you’re stressed, you tend to kind of eat away at those resources, and so you find yourself texting, checking your phone constantly at work. That’s another outcome of feeling kind of chronic low-level stress.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really intriguing and good to flag because if we’re stressed, tired, out of cognitive resources, sometimes you might assume, “Well, the thing you’re going to do is immediately go to sleep.” And yet, it’s funny, it’s like the suppression power of being depleted means that, “No, what we do is just what we really want to do and have been suppressing.”

I remember back in the pandemic days, there was a time my wife was sick and it was all me. Full, 100% childcare, it’s Pete, the dad’s time to shine, and it’s like, “Okay.” And so, I thought it’s always kind of intense and kind of exhausting, and I always also try to keep a few things in the air, a little bit with work in terms of, like, respond to a few things and whatnot. Just not totally dropping the ball there.

And it was so funny, you would think that after those days, I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, I’m just going to just collapse immediately into bed.” And what I found myself doing, it was so weird, it was like, I went and played video games, and I don’t do much of that in general, but it’s just like, “This just really is what needs to happen right now.”

And so, you’re highlighting an interesting phenomenon in the human experience. I don’t think I’ve heard someone articulate quite this way before, is when that’s happening, that’s a sign that we are mentally depleted and/or stressed.

Tessa West
I think if you find yourself seeking out alone time at weird hours to do weird things that you never used to do, and you’re sort of justifying that as alone time, “I went through this as a new parent,” “I went through this in the pandemic,” and not because you really don’t get any alone time but because you’re too depleted to do any work, and your cortisol hasn’t dropped enough so you can’t fall asleep. So, there’s kind of this, like, bottom-up top-down problem of like physiologically your body can’t actually relax enough to sleep.

You know, things like cortisol, they peak in the morning, they peak in the afternoon, and then they’re supposed to go down, so that by the time you’re ready to go to sleep, you don’t have all this, like, adrenaline and all this cort in your body. But when you’ve been stressed, you break out of that cycle and so your brain can’t do anything, but it wants to play video games, it wants to watch Netflix, it wants to do something distracting that isn’t sleep but doesn’t involve social interaction, which is kind of depleting.

So, if you find yourself wanting to play video games at 2:00 o’clock in the morning or watching TV instead of sleep, that’s usually a sign that your body is too physiologically strained to sleep, but your mind is too exhausted to do anything real, and I think that’s just a red flag a lot of us aren’t really trained to look out for.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, thanks for flagging that one. Flag of the flag. Anything else we should be observing?

Tessa West
In terms of stress, I think anything with disrupted patterns. If you usually exercise and then, all of a sudden, you’re not motivated to. If you want to disengage socially, that’s a huge kind of red flag that you’re probably pretty stressed out. Social interactions tend to be depleting for most people in some way, even if they’re good, even if they’re engaging. Those are the kinds of things we tend to be a little bit withdrawing from.

And then I think the other thing you should be really attuned to is stress contagion. So, I do a lot of research on how the stress we feel spreads to other people, and how, when we’re really stressed, we’re actually hyper-attuned to the stress cues of others. So, if I’m stressed and then I interact with a co-worker whose voice is a little bit hyper, who’s really fidgety, who is avoiding eye contact, I’m going to be like super sensitive to those cues and even more susceptible to catching that person’s stress.

So, if you find yourself getting ramped up when you’re around a hyper or stressed-out colleague, you can feel your heart rate going up, you can feel your palms sweating, you’re probably already kind of at a disadvantage. You’re a little bit stressed out, and you’re going to be super susceptible to catching the stress of other people around you, and so you kind of have to regulate that and take yourself out of those social contexts.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And you’re also talking about some assessments and questions that you can ask yourself and record answers to regularly. What are some of the potentially insightful items on those assessments?

Tessa West
I think if you want to go at this really simply, the easiest thing you can do is, in the morning, ask yourself what you’re the most worried about going into the day, and how your sleep was that night. And in the evening, ask yourself was that thing that you were worried about actually that stressful and what unanticipated stressors you faced?

What I find in my book is that about 50% of the time, the things we’re the most worried about in the morning tend to not actually be that bad, mostly because we can put steps in place to make ourselves feel better, to prepare for them mentally so that we are challenged, we’re not threatened. But when we looked at people’s so-called unanticipated stressors, they were things that they actually encounter really regularly.

So, the irony is they’re not actually that unanticipated when they thought about it. They just didn’t anticipate them in the moment. And those are those things I talked about, like a commute running late, or that calendar invite, that in the moment you didn’t anticipate, but if I asked you, “How often has this happened?” most people say, “Oh, it actually happens pretty frequently.”

So, they’re not actually processing these things as frequent stressors. They’re processing them as unanticipated until I tell them to write them down, and they’re like, “Oh, yeah, actually, I actually deal with this like once a week.” So, I think that’s the simplest thing you can do is kind of measure those patterns.

And then I think the key reason why you should do this, not only just to learn about your own body, your own experiences, but if you are to look for a new job, if you’re to start networking with people, you know exactly sort of what to ask for, what red flags are going to spike your blood pressure. So, you can ask questions like, “How often does the boss put unanticipated meetings on the calendar?”

If you’ve identified that as something that really stresses you out, you want to avoid that in your next job. But you really have to be like very kind of systematic and learning your own triggers so that you know exactly what to ask and when during those networking conversations during those job interviews.

Pete Mockaitis
So, it sounds like merely identifying the patterns and anticipating the stressors prior to them occurring is useful and powerful for your own resilience in and of itself. So that’s cool. Great.

Tessa West
Yeah, absolutely. We got to learn what makes us not sleep, and, surprisingly, people don’t actually know. Scientists know. We can run statistics on you and tell you, but if I was to ask you, “Why didn’t you sleep last night?” You’re going to make up all kinds of things, from the room was too hot, to this or that, and it probably has very little to do with those things. You just don’t know because it’s something that happened three days ago that’s impacting your sleep.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, then I’m curious, one thing that’s in our control is to say, “Oh, this job has a ton of the things that trigger me. It’s time for another job.” So that’s one thing we could do, is make the switch. I’m curious about what are some of the things we might be able to do to, since you’re highlighting here, that stress can be a sneaky little bugger who has negative impacts days and weeks later than the actual inciting incident occurred? So that seems to suggest that it would be in our interest to proactively do some things about how we are handling stress so as to flourish all the better. So, lay it on us, what should we do there?

Tessa West
Yeah, I think here’s the good news. You have a lot more control over the impact of stress and how frequently you encounter these things than you realize. I think the good news is most of the stressors that are actually anticipated are things you can control to some degree. So, if you figure out, for instance, that your boss tends to put those unanticipated meetings on your calendar, once you sort of track the data, you realize it’s occurring every other Thursday or something like that, or you can figure out what that pattern is with your boss, then you can kind of put those blocks in your day.

I think one of the main things that stress people out is not getting their list of things done in the day, but if they actually figure out why, it’s through self-interruptions. There are things you can do to kind of prevent self-interruptions. If you’re being interrupted by other people, I talk in this book about how you can look around the environment and figure out sort of who’s interrupting you and when. Is it because their office is close? Is it because their office is not close, and they don’t know how to systematically interrupt you?

So, tracking these things, learning your own environment, and then putting stopgaps in place is huge. I think once I figured out what stressed me out, which was disappointing people, not getting them something done in time, and then I was thinking, “Okay, why am I disappointing them? Am I taking on too much? Sure, maybe I’m taking on too much,” but that wasn’t actually the reason. The real reason was, during my smart time every day, which was from 8:00 to 10:00 a.m., I was interrupting myself up to 15 times to check my LinkedIn to see who liked a post.

This is embarrassing, but I will admit that this happened. And once I started tracking my own behaviors, I realized I have this weird tick where I want to see how popular I am on LinkedIn, and it’s usually in the morning and that’s conflicting with my smart time, and when I don’t get my smart time, and I don’t get the thing done, that then leads me to disappoint people. So, if I’m 100% honest with myself, I have complete control over that daisy chain of events that’s leading to the stressor.

It took me a really long time to figure out what it was. But once I did, all I did was put away LinkedIn for those two hours, and it totally solved the problem. And that’s kind of a simple example, but I think, once you are honest with yourself about what you’re actually doing, what situations you’re putting yourself in to potentially exacerbate these triggers or allow them to happen, if you have a commute, you just have to plan for the max. You know, if it’s between 30 and 60 minutes, just always assume 60 minutes.

Things like that, I think we have a lot more control over, but you do have to play detective of your own behaviors, of your own triggers, of your own weaknesses, and admit that you have them, and then instead of band-aiding problems, my sleep deprivation, I bought all those cold sheets that they tell you, “Okay, well, it’s probably too warm in your room.” So, I bought those.

That wasn’t really the issue. It was conflict with someone at work that had happened like up to two days before that. Once I figured that out, I didn’t need the cold sheets and my sleep was fine. But you do have to do the homework and do the digging, but most people can actually figure it out.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And that’s really cool how sometimes, when you do the detective work, you’re on the case and you see, “Aha, it’s because of this, and I can make this shift. And then as a result, things will things be hunky-dory.” So that’s super. I’m curious, if you discover some stuff that is less in your control, sort of like no matter what you do, this colleague is going to critique your work.

And not that they’re being a total jerk about it, but they’re just going to be like, “Oh, you know, you should do this. Oh, why didn’t you do that? You know, and that’s just, okay.” That’s just kind of the way they are. Maybe you’ve even asked them, “Hey, you know, I’d really appreciate it. You know, I work best under these kinds of collaborative conditions.” Okay, whatever. You’ve done all you could do and still, stuff happens, and it’s being served at you. How do we best deal with those pieces?

Tessa West
Yeah, I think, you know, my first book is called Jerks at Work, and it’s like, try all those strategies, and if it doesn’t work, then you need to go into Job Therapy and learn how to network to find a new job. I do think, I don’t want to be Pollyannish and think you can solve all your problems. I do think controllability is a huge piece.

Once you figure out what needs to be controlled, what the problem is, if you can’t control that in much the same way that you can’t fix a marriage by yourself, if your partner is like, “Screw this, I’m not interested in therapy. I’m not interested in doing any reparative work,” that’s when you have to start exploring new things.

What I don’t want people to do is think that that means quit and then start applying. I think you need to start having those kind of 15-minute conversations with strangers while you’re still employed, because a lot of us have a grass-is-greener idea, and we don’t actually know whether we’re going to face the same thing in another job that we’re facing now.

And I think the easiest thing you can do is reach out to people who are in your organization or outside of it, or in your industry, and I know people don’t like networking, but I think of networking conversations more about information-seeking and asking them about their jobs and less about talking about yourself, just to get a feel for what the day-in-the-life is of other jobs, and that should be your only goal, “What is the day in the life like of this job, at this company, at this role?”

Really simple mundane questions about, “What do you do every day? What does it look like? How loud is it? Who are your colleagues? How much control do you have over how you see them?” Those kinds of low-level things. You want to reach out to as many people as you can to have those conversations to see what it’s like on the other side, instead of assuming that it’s going to be better because often it’s actually not so great on the other side, and you kind of have to bide your time a little bit before you start reaching out or you start applying for new things.

But I think that that very first step is just talking to people in those companies, and just saying, “Hey, can you tell me, like, what your day-to-day is? What do you do like from 9:00 to 5:00, from 9:00 to 10:00, 10:00 to 11:00? What’s that look like?”

Pete Mockaitis
I like that specificity there. And I’m curious, while we’re biding our time, we’re doing our research, we’re talking to some people, are there any sort of like first-aid strategies you recommend for, we’re getting blasted by work stressors all the time? How do we just kind of deal and cope better? You suggested not reframing, “Well, this is just part of what you have to do to get ahead.” So, if that’s something that we don’t want to do, what’s something we do want to do?

Tessa West
I think the easiest thing you can do to kind of regulate, and this, actually, this is going to sound like a weird connection, but it comes out of the “Intimate Partner Violence” literature. So, how do you get from ten to one on, like, that anger scale? Is just taking yourself out of the situation, going for a walk, or shutting yourself in your office for ten minutes alone? Don’t interact with anyone. Don’t go complain immediately to a colleague if you’re stressed.

Our instinct is to want to sort of, like, explode our negative emotions onto others in an effort to get them to regulate it for us, to get them to make us feel better, to complain. And I think that instinct is fine for maybe later on, but at first just take a couple minutes, I think, and go for a walk, or have a cup of coffee. I think the best emotion regulation strategy in the “Intimate Partner Violence” literature is count to 100 alone in a room. That’s the best predictor of getting people to, like, not want to punch someone because it actually helps downregulate emotions at the basic physiologic level.

So, your blood pressure goes down, your heart rate goes down. You need to do the things to get your body to change before your mind can. And I think for some people, they’re good at meditating, I’m not. But I can take 10 minutes to, like, listen to music or something like that. Just do that a couple of times, I think, is the easiest and the best strategy people can do.

And I think building your physical space in a way that’s comfortable is also really important. And temperature matters, sound matters, so as much control over your little environmental, you know, whatever kind of makes you happy in your environment, those creature comforts is really important.

Pete Mockaitis
You talk about “Intimate Partner Violence” literature, I guess I’m just thinking about, like, children and their emotional regulation pieces. It seems like many of these really do still apply to us.

Tessa West
Yeah, timeout, self-induced time out. It’s the same. When it comes to emotion regulation, there’s only so many ways to skin a cat, and you don’t actually need to be that complicated about it. It really just comes down to taking deep breaths and getting your heart rate down. Once your body is calm, then your mind will follow.

But I think we often want to do something immediately that feels good, that feels like a release, and that usually means word vomiting to our colleague. And that’s the thing I would avoid because that leads to stress contagion and all that kind of yucky business.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we’ve immediately managed our stresses, we’re doing some research. What are some of the other key steps you recommend that we undergo when we’ve determined, “Yep, it’s time to make a switch”?

Tessa West
I think that kind of the number one thing is talking to strangers. I think 15-minute conversations are key. In the book, I talk about how you can reach, how you can write a cold email to someone and get them to actually write you back. I had to do this for the book. I was shocked at how much people were willing to talk about themselves. What they weren’t willing to do is have a conversation where I sold myself to them for no reason, you know, like, “I’m on the job market, I’m looking for something, and I’m going to tell you how great I am.”

No one would reply to emails like that. Not that I was doing that, but people often reach out in an effort to impress. And I think, instead, you want to reach out and say, “I have these three questions about before you started this job, nobody told me that. How would you answer that?” I think little things like that. I think the job interview process is a place where we often have terrible communication. We don’t have honest interviews, like we don’t have first dates.

I think it’s really important to remind yourself that, during that early kind of sourcing stage where you’re learning about a job, you’re talking to a hiring manager, you need a little bit of tension in those conversations where you’re asking tough questions. People avoid that because they think it makes them look bad or ungrateful, but you can onlDy kind of build intimacy with some tension in close relationships, and I think that’s true with job interviews.

You want to ask those tough questions. People like it. It turns out it looks like you’re looking for long-term fit. So, I think asking some difficult questions to assess fit, to find red flags. My favorite question is, “What does it look like to fail at this job?” People always can answer that one because they’ve seen it a million times. It’s better than asking, “What does it look like to succeed?” because that tends to be vague. Failure tends to be specific. So, questions like that. I think you just have to be willing to have like super honest conversations and listen to people and not sell yourself. At least, that’s not your initial goal.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Any other tips as we’re all walking this journey?

Tessa West
Don’t feel afraid to get rejected when you’re reaching out to people you don’t know. People are very nervous these days about looking awkward. I study social awkwardness, and it largely lives in our heads more than how it manifests behaviorally. And we’re a little out of practice with talking to people we don’t know, and I think that’s why people aren’t dating as much. It’s why they are afraid to have coffee or a Zoom call with a stranger. But everyone’s in the same boat, so it’s okay.

Do not think that you can learn about a job by sitting on your couch and reading websites and Glassdoor stuff, or even and getting those LinkedIn certifications, or whatever. You really can only learn about it through interpersonal communication and talking to people. I’m convinced that websites and passive learning, video watching, can only get you so far. You need to get in there and learn about the hidden curriculum and all that juicy stuff that people don’t advertise about jobs.

Pete Mockaitis
When you say the hidden curriculum, what do you mean by this?

Tessa West
This is all the stuff that leads you to succeed at work that nobody talks about. Sometimes that means that company policies go against what it takes to actually succeed. The dark side is like taking maternity leave is a bad idea because someone else will take your job. That’s a piece of hidden curriculum. Sometimes it’s weird norms.

So I asked people, I did a study where I asked them about all the weird norms they encountered at work, and sometimes it’s like where you’re allowed to sit, who you can email to ask questions, whose orange juice you can drink from the office fridge, little things like that, but also things like knowledge transfer, which is a complex concept of, like, “If I know something from my old job, do people give a crap in my new job? Are they interested in learning about that? Or do they have their own set of rules here that contradict that?”

And I think a lot of us have a hard time getting over a newcomer hump at work because we assume the knowledge from our old job will carry over to a new one, when in reality there’s like a whole new set of norms and rules and even jargon. That’s another thing that we don’t like at work, but it’s super common. Everyone has their own terms, their own acronyms they use at work. They tend to be pretty idiosyncratic to companies. So, the ones you know now at your job now are going to be different than the ones that the new company uses.

So, just like, “How much of that do I have to learn? How steep is that hill to climb?” And what I think will I need to succeed, is that really what the people who’ve succeeded have? I’ll say one more thing which is job ads often have a list of requirements that are not the real requirements needed. And the reason why is because it’s for the sourcing for hiring managers. They want to cast a wide net so they tend to sort of underwrite ads, but what they’re really looking for is often not written in that ad.

And so, you have to do some digging to figure out, “Okay, they actually left out this really important thing that everyone who’s ever gotten this job had but it’s not in the ad because if they put it there, they’d only get three applicants,” or something like that. There’s lots of kind of mundane reasons but even at the level of the job ad, there’s a hidden curriculum of like what’s missing from that that you really do need to land the job and to succeed at it.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. That’s really nice, and it’s pretty substantial just how much is hidden, and just how skewed and inaccurate a picture we could get if we only rely on what’s published.

Tessa West
Yeah, think about it like a dating app. Imagine that you meet someone based on their app profile. Would you think that that app is 100% accurate and representative of the person? Most of us would laugh and say, “Of course not. That photo is 15 years old. They overestimated their height and their income and all this other stuff.” We know that, right? We intuitively know that our dating profile is not representative of us, so why do we think a job ad is representative of a job?

It’s the same kind of logic that I think you should apply. And when you meet someone on a first date, you want to do a little bit of digging to see how accurate that profile was. A lot of us are feeling catfished. We show up and we’re like, “That’s not you.” And I think that can happen with jobs, but we’re feeling much more vulnerable than when we’re dating, where we’re afraid to kind of dig for the truth because we want to get to the next stage.

So, we don’t ask those questions like, “Who wrote the ad?” and “Has my future boss even seen this ad?” Most of the time the answer is no. Some hiring manager wrote it, scraping from Indeed. And so, we have to treat it with that same level of kind of circumspect perspective that we would a dating app.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, Tessa, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Tessa West
I’m a professor so I give you a lot of homework. It’s going to feel like a lot, but once you get the hang of kind of measuring yourself and learning about yourself by collecting these data, you’re going to be, hopefully, pleasantly surprised at the new things you’re going to uncover. And I think don’t be afraid to reach out to people and have those conversations. That’d be the one piece of advice I give people.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Tessa West
Probably “Culture eats strategy for breakfast” is one of my favorite quotes. I think that it just kind of encompasses this idea that workplace vibes, culture, zeitgeist can really override anything that we do to plan. I think that is something that I kind of like live by. Don’t ask me who said it. I can’t remember.

Pete Mockaitis
I think Drucker.

Tessa West
Drucker, that’s right.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study.

Tessa West
Probably be something on morality and norms. I’m doing a lot of research these days on how we interact with people who make us incredibly uncomfortable. So, one of my favorite studies in this space is by Wendy Mendez on the brittle smiles effect.

So the more uncomfortable we are interacting with someone who’s different from us, the more likely we are to smile, be nice, engage in friendly overtures, let them win negotiations, but at the same time our physiology suggests we’re incredibly stressed out. And so, I love that because it’s this juxtaposition between what our bodies are saying, which is stress, and what our minds are trying to override, which is overt friendliness in an effort to compensate for that. And I think that can explain why we often suck at giving feedback because it’s uncomfortable.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Tessa West
I only read fantasy novels these days, “Shadow Daddies,” that kind of thing, Sarah J. Maas.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Tessa West
Noise-canceling headphones.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I love noise-canceling headphones. Which one are you working with?

Tessa West
These are not it but I use Bose headphones because my office is all glass walls, and I can hear everything around me all the time, and I’m one of those noise-sensitive people, so I can’t concentrate if I can hear a conversation going on. So, I live by the noise. Sometimes I layer them on with wireless headphones. I’m going to sound totally crazy. Wireless headphones underneath with a noise machine going on on my iPhone, like a fan, and then the noise-canceling headphones over those so I really can’t hear anything.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, you know, I love it. I would put earplugs in and then headphones over the earplugs.

Tessa West
I do that too, but it’s not enough. You got to get the fan sound on the earbuds, and then the noise cancelling over that.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Tessa West
Getting a latte four times a day.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Tessa West
Keep it real. Just say the thing. At the end of the day, you’re going to get it out. It’s going to take you a while, so just say the thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Tessa West
You can check out TessaWestAuthor.com, which has all the quizzes for my book. There’s also going to be just a whole bunch of downloadable materials, little guides on how to do the stress test, how to measure yourself, how to network, all that fun business. If you’re interested in my research, you can check me out at TessaWestLab.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Tessa West
Yeah, reach out to five strangers this weekend and set up chats. Just cold reach out, follow the guide I give you, and just frame up three questions that you want to ask them, where you want to learn about their job. They can be completely outside of your industry. You’re just looking to learn new things.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Tessa, thank you. This is awesome.

Tessa West
Thank you so much.

Sep 19
0

995: Going From Overwhelmed to Unstoppable by Resetting your Mindset with Penny Zenker

By | Podcasts | No Comments

 

Penny Zenker shares her secret for enhanced productivity, peak performance, and unstoppable focus: the Reset Moment.

You’ll Learn

  1. How distractions lead to burnout
  2. The sneaky secret behind your zapped energy levels 
  3. Why productivity shouldn’t be your focus 

About Penny

Penny Zenker (AKA “The Focusologist”) is a sought-after speaker, bestselling author, and former C-Suite executive of a global top-five research company. Over the past three decades, she has built and sold multiple multimillion-dollar companies—including an award-winning tech firm she founded. 

Today, Penny helps leaders prioritize what’s most important, so they can achieve seemingly impossible goals -even in times of rapid change and growth. Penny has shared her expertise with industry giants like Deloitte, Pfizer, SAP, Samsung, and NASA, and been featured by NBC News, ESPN, FORBES, INC., and many more. 

She has written two best-selling books: The Reset Mindset and The Productivity Zone to help people stop their tug of war with time. Her popular TEDx talk, The Energy of Thought has surpassed one-million views worldwide. And her podcast, Take Back Time, ranks in the top 2% worldwide, reflecting her commitment to helping others regain control of their focus and achieve peak performance. 

Resources Mentioned

Penny Zenker Interview Transcript

Penny Zenker
It’s so good to be here. I’m excited.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m excited as well. I think you’re the first Focusologist that we’ve had on the show.

Penny Zenker
I can guarantee it since I made it up.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s like, “Yeah, the lawyers would have pursued them rigorously if anyone else came…” Well, that’s a really cool title. Tell us, where does that come from?

Penny Zenker
Well, it comes from, it’s as much for me as it is for everyone else, so, firstly, it comes from reminding me that the practice of controlling and directing our focus towards more meaningful results is a daily practice. An ologist is someone who practices and goes deep into the practice. So, it’s for me and my health and well-being, as well as for my success, but I realize we are in a focus crisis, so I really have it as well as a mission to help others to also make that a daily practice.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, we’re going to dig into some of these practices, absolutely, because focusing better is a key thing listeners have asked for, and, yeah, there’s a real need for that, certainly. Could you share with us, what is the state of this crisis you mentioned?

Penny Zenker
Well, I think most people would agree. I’ve done a lot of research of my own, but there’s also a multitude of statistics out there, like, we tap, touch, swipe, and scroll on our phones 3,000 times a day. That’s incredible. And people go to bed with their phones. They go to the bathroom with their phones. And what my research has shown me, as I’ve done a lot of research to kind of give people a distraction profile, and the highest level is a time zombie. And I’m happy to share that link. It’s a free quiz that people can take just to get some perspective.

And we’re finding that people are just two rungs below a time zombie. If there’s six different possible profiles, people are at the second and the third to the highest is what we’re looking.

Pete Mockaitis
So, you mean, like, that’s the average or median level of…?

Penny Zenker
Yeah, that most people define themselves after they go through this as squirrels, meaning that they’re distracted by this, that, and everything, that they’re having a really hard time staying attentive and focusing on what matters most. And it’s not just our phones. It’s also all of the fast pace of we’ve got to be, stay up with AI and we’ve got so many different things going on, challenges in the workplace with toxicity or burnout, too much being given to us at any one time, or just the state of social affairs in the world.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, well, can you tell us then, what is the possibility, if we’ve truly mastered our focus, and what are we missing out on? If this is just sort of our normal, like this is water, this is air, this is just sort of what is, what’s really possible for us in a world where we have gained true mastery of this?

Penny Zenker
Well, I think the first thing is not to accept this distraction as our new normal, is we have to take back control of the things that we actually can control, and that’s what I’m on a mission to do for myself. But what’s possible is this distraction is causing a lot of mental health issues. They’re showing links to the level of distraction that we have with the level of anxiety, with the loneliness epidemic that they talk about, and other mental health issues.

So, we would see a lift in our mental health, we’d be able to have deeper, more meaningful relationships, we’d be able to experience more joy in the work that we do, and in the time that we spend because we’d be spending it more on the things that matter most and things that give us energy, versus things that take our energy away, or splinter our energy into lots of different directions. So, we would just be happier and be more fulfilled if we would take back our focus.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, can you share with us, Penny, just how harmful is this distractedness, smartphone stuff? Is it a boogeyman? Is it just sort of a minor point? Or is it transformational?

Penny Zenker

Well, I think it’s transformational, and I think it’s also, if we look at a particular study that was done in 2018 from the Journal of Behavioral Science, at that point in time, and that was a long time ago, they said that people who use their smartphones for more than five hours a day are twice as likely to experience symptoms of anxiety and depression compared to those who use it more frequently. And I can tell you that if we were to look at how many hours per day, if we’d looked up that study, we would see a very significant number of people using their phones more than five hours a day.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Yeah, this reminds me, I think it was a South Park episode about this, where people think the answer is more smartphone and it’s exactly the opposite that gets the job done. So, that’s a comedy show, but so we got some hard science there. And then tell us, what have you seen in terms of clients who have instituted some good practices and constraints around this stuff? What do they pull off in terms of being more awesome at their jobs?

Penny Zenker

Well, when they start to schedule themselves more effectively, well, let me put it this way first. The first thing that I have people do, and this kind of ties into some of the things I have in my new book, The Reset Mindset is I have them take reset moments, because stress is shown to compound, and so this stops stress from compounding, and stress can also come from distraction.

So, when people take these reset moments, they’re able to reflect more clearly on what’s working and what’s not working. They’re able to take time to schedule their day out so that their day is focused on the things that matter most. So, when they’re making time for these reset moments, and including what they’re going to do and how they’re going to use their phones, and when they’re going to block out those distractions, they’re finding, not just within themselves, that they’re more productive.

I have one CEO that I’ve worked with who said that he’s easily two times more productive because he now has these blocks where he’s not distracted because he has these practices of what I call gatekeepers, that he puts away his phone, and he directs and protects his time, and so, therefore, he’s able to get so much more done, and so much more of the right things because he’s really more intentional about it.

And not only that, but he says that his team is showing that they’re much more effective. They’re able to resolve problems quicker than they were in the past, and they’re able to be more creative in the solutions that they come up with, and so he’s really, really happy. Every time we meet, he says, “I’ve had yet another month that’s the best recorded month of revenue and profitability that we’ve ever experienced.” So, he’s been really seeing that in the bottom line.

Pete Mockaitis

Fantastic. Okay. So that sounds handy and wise. I’m curious, as you put together your book, The Reset Mindset and the revised edition here, any particularly surprising discoveries that made you go, “Wow, I didn’t expect to find that”?

Penny Zenker

I mean, I think that it’s the surprises that I’m hearing are about how I didn’t expect the language to be as sticky for people as it is, and really simplify their access to it. So, these words of reset moments is something that people are saying that now they’ve become sort of these professional noticers.

And they’re seeing these opportunities everywhere to take these reset moments, which I didn’t expect it to be as sticky and as impactful in the way that it is on a day-to-day basis and how people are putting it into practice, talking about it with each other, using it as a language within the organization. So those are some things that I didn’t expect.

And I think also what’s interesting is I didn’t expect this to be the book. I actually started writing a different book, and I started writing the book that was Living the 80/20 Rule, because, for me, that was one of the ways that we can block out those distractors and those things that are less important and focus on what really matters, is asking ourselves, “What’s the 20% that gives us 80% of the difference?”

And in every area, “How do I approach this conversation so that I’m focused on the most important thing? I don’t fight to be right. I remember that the most important thing is the relationship, so how can I interact with it?” So how could we sort of implement this 80/20 Rule in every area of our life? And as I started to dig in and write more about it, I realized that that’s just one of many practices that help us to reset, to rethink, to redirect our focus and reprioritize, to recharge ourselves, to help us to let go of the things that are less important.

And so, it became, “Oh, that’s a reset practice. So, what does that enable us to do? What is the overarching thinking practice that happens, the way of thinking?” And that’s where this reset practice was born in these reset moments. So that was a big surprise for me as well.

Pete Mockaitis

Yes. Well, I love the 80/20 Rule so much, and we had Perry Marshall on the show once talking about it, and I have found that often in the case in my own work and initiatives, like, sure enough, some things truly are 16 times as impactful as other things on a per hour basis of effort, so that’s huge. So, then your surprising discovery was that the reset moments are what enable folks to better deploy their energies into that vital few 20% of goodness? Is that right?

Penny Zenker

Yes, yes, exactly. Well said. Well said.

It also was an interesting discovery that that reset moment can be as little as 60 seconds to reset our brain that enables us to stop that compounding stress as well.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, this is exciting juicy stuff then. So, let’s kind of unpack the mechanism a little bit. So, we have compounding stress, and that is diminishing us. Can you maybe paint a picture of how that unfolds in practice perhaps over the course of a day?

Penny Zenker

Well, I think as much as I can go through an example, I think everybody can relate to that when they look at their own day. So, you start your day and the first diminishment happens when you hit the snooze button because you thought you were going to get up and you had plans to go to the gym, or to do something that was important, but you stayed up a little bit late and you feel tired, and so, therefore, you hit the snooze button.

There’s a small diminish that starts right there because we let go of something that we set the night before that was important to us, that now we’re putting, we’re procrastinating, or we’re going to say, “We’re not going to go to the gym today.” So, it’s all these times that we say we’re going to do something and then we don’t, that diminishes us in some ways, and it creates stress because we kind of, internally, it affects us when we say, “I’m going to do something,” and then we don’t follow through. It affects our confidence and our ability to follow through with things on a consistent basis.

And then we get a call that the meeting that we were supposed to have tomorrow was moved up to today, and now we need to prepare for that meeting because we don’t have that presentation prepared yet. So now everything gets thrown to the wind about what you might have planned for the day, and so these stresses, they build up as things change. We’re not as flexible or adaptable as we’d like to be, and so those stresses can come in a lot of different forms.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, so I get your point in terms of, like, the unexpected curveballs or disruptions, like sudden abrupt shifts of stuff are all forms of stressors, as is what you said is just not following through on our intentions creates a stress within us. And that’s really an intriguing perspective because, in some ways, it’s like we feel stressed and in need of additional rest in that world of, “I woke up and I hit the snooze button because I want to rest more.” You’re suggesting that extra rest is not going to diminish our stress as much as being true to our prior intention will bust stress. Is that accurate?

Penny Zenker

Yeah, I mean, sleep is important, and if you feel like you’re not getting enough sleep then you should decide the night before that you’re going to have a regular bedtime, for instance, and follow that so that you get enough sleep. But if you set an intention to do something, it’s kind of like how people, they set a New Year’s resolution, and the first couple of days they go to the gym and they feel good about it, but then they fall off and they don’t end up going, and they stop going. They feel bad about that. They feel bad that they set an intention and a goal and it affects people emotionally, even when you don’t realize it.

I think they call it cognitive dissidence when you’re failing to follow through on your commitments. It can create that. It’s sort of like this internal mental discomfort that we experience. It can impact our self-esteem. These impacts are like, they might not make sense to you. You might say, “Well, why should that do that?” It’s just that we’re emotional beings, and it does, right?

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, so then let’s hear about this mechanism a bit more. So, we had a number of disruptions. Maybe we didn’t follow through with an intention, something got shifted around on us, some unexpected stuff, some disappointments, some bad news. Okay, so we’ve got a number of things, stuff went down that is contributing to our stress, and it’s compounded over the course of a day.

So then, tell us if, that’s the state, does that mean we are then less able to, I don’t know, 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m. able to tackle a bit of vital few 80/20, a big work as a result of having been zapped by this compounded stress? Can you expand upon that principle?

Penny Zenker

Yeah, think about also the decision fatigue by the time you’re at 4:00 p.m., you’ve had all these competing priorities and things that had to change, and decisions that needed to be made. So, it’s kind of like, by the time the afternoon gets around, if you’ve done nothing to address the stressors that have been around for the day, you had to work through lunch.

All of these decisions that you made that weren’t supporting your energy, it’s like having a cup that’s full of water, like a Dixie Cup, but then you take it and you poke holes in it, you continue to poke holes in it with each time that you’re experiencing some stress, or a decision that needs to be made, or can’t follow through with something, all of these different things, they cause leaks in our energy and in our ability to forge forward and make good decisions.

And so, that’s why we need to take these little resets. It might even be just a difficult discussion that took place. Maybe a customer called and was dissatisfied in how I dealt with that, but I might’ve felt a little bit attacked and taken that personally. It’s those little moments, when you can take those reset moments throughout the day that can make all the difference to revitalize you.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. So, then if I am not revitalized – unvitalized, what’s the opposite of it – so, if I’m drained, zapped from that stuff, and I said, “Okay, 3:00 or 4:00 p.m. that’s the time I had scheduled to work on this super critical initiative. I even put it on my calendar, like, Pete’s guest said I’m supposed to but I’ve got that stress buildup,” when the moment comes to execute, I am less able to do so, is what I’m gathering from what you’ve shared here.

Penny Zenker

Well, even if you push it off, because if it’s not urgent, but it’s the 20% because it’s moving and creating impact, but maybe it’s really not critical that you do it today so you push it off and you push it off, and you get caught up in these false urgencies, or just in this state of overwhelm. So, the first thing that I would say is, is you always place the most important things first thing in the morning, and do those 20% items first, and then everything else can follow. Then you know that you’ve done the thing that has the greatest impact and you’ve done that first. You don’t wait until the end of the day because the likelihood is you’re not going to do it.

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah.

Penny Zenker

You’re smiling. Why are you smiling? Has that happened to you?

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I’m smiling because it’s funny, you’re catching me in a good groove because I’ve observed the same phenomenon, Penny. And so, lately, I’ve had a nice little streak of within seconds of being aware that I am awake, I tell my phone, I’ve got a shortcut, I say “Marky Mark” and then it launches the Hallow app and Mark Wahlberg is praying the Rosary with me within seconds of waking up.

Now I’m not fully there with it yet, right, but it happens, and I like that it’s happening with perfect consistency. And so, I’m smiling because I am witnessing this principle in real time at the extreme. It’s, like, in the first seconds of consciousness, I trigger this, and, sure enough, it works with perfect consistency, and it’s like you’re gambling. The later something is scheduled in the day, the higher the probability of it, oopsie, accidentally, somehow perhaps not happening, even with the greatest of intentions and the most motivated and pure.

It’s like, “It’s on my calendar. This is really important to me. I really mean it. This is for real-sies, serious, no take-sies-back-sies,” and yet somehow, it’s like the forces of our environment and people and relationships somehow can manage to shove that off of there. In a way, it’s humbling in terms of our agency as humans, it’s like, “Shouldn’t I just be able to have the self-control or discipline to really hold firm to this 3:00 p.m. whatever appointment?”

And I’m learning “Kind of” is the answer, it’s like our capability here is somewhat limited, unless we’re just, like, brutal, like, “No, honey, I’m sorry that you feel sick and are vomiting everywhere, and are in no condition to take care of the kids, but I have an appointment with myself at 3:00 p.m. to think of some big-picture new product and services that I’m going to launch, so deal with it,” right? Like, I just can’t do that, and maybe that’s for the best as a human in the world with relationships that matter to me.

Penny Zenker

Well, absolutely. I mean, I think everybody is the same if their significant other needs them, they’re going to push it. But it’s not even just for that, that we’re pushing it. We’re pushing it for everything else. So, first, if you have a practice that you put into your calendar space to think, you’re already ahead of 90% of the people who don’t, who don’t plan that strategic thinking time. So, right there, that’s a reset moment to schedule in those moments to rethink and reconnect to what’s most important.

But if you do have the time, the best time to do it is in the morning. And there are some studies that also, and I don’t have the specifics in front of me, but I remember that you’re going to have fewer distractions in the morning because you’re just getting up, but they talk about some new science around flow. The best time of flow, because of the hormones that are activated from sleep that is in the morning, so you have the best concentration and you haven’t started to put holes in that cup, so your energy is full and you’re able to give better quality concentration in the morning.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. So, these mindset resets, we’ve got some, a few of them are popping up already in terms of try to do it in the morning, really schedule it in, that time to think. And then lay out on us, some additional ones. You said some can be done in just one minute to diffuse some of the effect of compounding stress that’s showing up for us.

Penny Zenker

So, Thrive Global, for instance, is working with different types of companies to embed these reset moments into the workflow. For instance, Synchrony is a company that handles credit cards, and so they work with their support team, who typically, when somebody’s picking up the phone and answering these support calls, are people calling to tell you how great you are? No. They’re calling to complain and say, “This is happening and this is happening.”

So, these people, you talked about “How does our energy, how do we get drained?” It’s they’re constantly listening to people who are unhappy, and they’re taking it in. So, this reset practice was brought into them and embedded into their workflow, that in between each call, there’s a 60-second app that’s launched with a breathing, simple breathing exercise that’s done, that walks them through that, and then will launch the next call.

And so, what they found through this is that the people who are the agents who are answering the phone, they’re much calmer in the next call because they’re not stacking those calls, and that negativity, they’re able to release it in that 60 seconds. So, they’re able to be more attentive. They’re able to handle the calls much quicker, and they, themselves, are happier. They feel happier and do a better job in bringing their best self. They’re more creative in their solutions.

And so, that’s the impact that it can have when you’re taking these reset moments, whether it’s to energize, or whether it’s to rethink things so that you’re working on the right thing. It just helps you to do your best work and be happier. And who doesn’t want that?

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, I love that. So, one minute of breathing. Well, Penny, you’re talking to a guy who pays for the Breathwrk app, so I’m going to ask you for the details. I imagine any number of slow, deep diaphragmatic breathing done for one minute will be great. But is there some magic prescription or formula you recommend for what goes down in that one minute of breathing?

Penny Zenker

No, I mean, their app is just a simple guided breathing app. So, “Take a deep breath in. Hold it.” You could do, the military uses the box breathing, which is four in, hold, four out, hold. So, you could do something like that. You could do, like, there’s a – I forget what they call it – like through your one nostril at a time, breathing in and out. Any type of focus on your breathing in that way will be incredibly grounding. So, I think if you’re not doing it to doing it, pick any one of the methods that are out there, find an app. I don’t know, what do you use? Do you use Wim Hof or any of those types of breathing?

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I’ve played with a lot of them, and Wim Hof is fun, although that’ll get you fired up. I mean, I don’t know if you want to do that in between customer service calls, maybe before battle.

Penny Zenker

Or holding your breath, that’s one part of his method is to hold your breath or to breathe in and out very quickly, so through your nose. When we breathe out through our nose, it’s activating the parasympathetic, which is helping us to calm the nervous system.

Pete Mockaitis

Certainly. So, okay, so simple breathing. That’s great. What else do you recommend for these resets?

Penny Zenker

Also, in that 60 seconds, our senses are our fastest way to our nervous system. So, it could also be just to get some essential oils, and maybe have a lemon, for instance, because that is energizing, or maybe lavender that is relaxing. And you can just take 60 seconds, taking a breath in of that scent; lighting a candle. It could also be something like taking a picture, and maybe it’s your favorite place to go.

Maybe you’re a beach person, it’s taking 60 seconds to just imagine yourself sitting on the beach and relaxing for that moment, putting yourself somewhere else. So, there’s lots of little techniques that you can use and that’s, if you have more time, great. But you can also do this in 60 seconds. Take off your shoes and feel your feet grounded on the floor.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s right. Or some decadent carpet.

Penny Zenker

Yeah, right? Feeling that fuzzy, nice carpet through your toes.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. So, 60 seconds of sensory stuff, deep breathing, that’s super. What are some other resets?

Penny Zenker

Well, some other resets are changing the types of questions that we ask. So, if we get caught, a totally different type of reset. Maybe we’re caught in self-doubt or getting lost in sort of a negative story that we might be telling ourselves after maybe an interaction with somebody, or maybe we made a mistake, or we didn’t get the result that we wanted, we didn’t get the job that we wanted, and we have this loop of “Why me?” or, “You’re so stupid” or whatever we may tell ourselves in our stories that are hurting us more than helping us.

We can also take a quick reset practice to change the question, is to say, “Okay, if I…” I use and I talk about in my book a question that I used to ask, like, when my father died in an accident, you know, “Why me? Why him?” And that just takes you down a terrible rabbit hole. And so, I realized over time that I shifted that question, since “Why?” was getting me nowhere, I shifted it to “What does this mean? And what else could this mean?” so that now I’m taking control of the meaning that I’m giving any interaction and choosing the best possible meaning for me to use because that’s going to influence everything.

It’s going to influence my attitude, my expectations, and my priorities, whatever meaning or perspective I choose to take. So just changing our questions, “What else could this mean? How else could I approach this? Who else could I contact?” Those types of things, they open up perspective and can, like I said, can just change and shift our mindset in the moment.

Pete Mockaitis

Absolutely. And it’s a tricky path when you have charged-up emotion, like in tragedy or extreme stress or difficulty, and then you add an unhelpful question onto that, and that can just start you down a trajectory into some places that are not so good for anybody. And so, a few of those questions certainly, right from the get-go, can start pointing you on to different pathways. So that’s really, really solid. Okay. So, we’ve got a number of these resets. Tell me, Penny, what are the other top practices we should utilize in order to focus truly on what matters most?

Penny Zenker

So, when you say top practices, what kind of context? Let’s get it so that somebody can see where and how they can apply it.

Pete Mockaitis

Let’s say someone is in their career, they want to advance and make a huge impact, and they want to get things fired up in a cool direction, such that they are generating a lot of cool results, folks are taking notice, and their career is energized and off to the races.

Penny Zenker

Okay, awesome. Great context. So, the first thing that I like to do is, “Are they clear of how they want to advance?” so that they know, like, the reset in itself is saying, “Okay, let me step back and make sure that I connect with the goal that I’m looking to achieve. And why do I have that goal?” Like, “I want to rise to the C-suite of this organization.” Okay, awesome. Why do you want that?

Like, get clear on what’s going to be different for you when you get there, so that you’re setting realistic expectations, and then you’re also able to connect to the fuel, because maybe you want to be there because you’re going to be able to really impact a great number of people and improve the leadership in the company, and take the company to new levels, and that company is supporting other individuals. So, whatever gives you the juice and the leverage is going to be really helpful.

And then when you’re stepping back to get some perspective on, “Okay. Well, who could help you to get there? Who are influencers in the organization that could speak for you when you’re not in the room?” You might also look at “What’s holding you back?” and these are all like, when I say, ways of thinking about things, these are resets in the way that you’re asking yourself those questions to challenge yourself to really rethink, a reset is to rethink, and maybe the approach that you’re currently taking to get ahead isn’t structured enough.

Maybe you’re not thinking of those people who could support you or what might be in your way. Have you had a discussion with your boss to find out what might be helpful? Like, what do they see as the next steps for you in getting to that next position? So, there’s conversations that can be had, there’s alliances that can be made, and seeing if there’s anything, like any limiting belief that you have about getting there. Like, do you see yourself as someone in that role? You could even visualize yourself as in that role.

And when you do that and visualize yourself, you might come ask yourself in that moment, when you see yourself four years, five years, three years down the road in that position, and just like really feel yourself in there, sitting in your office, having a conversation. And then ask yourself “What were the three things that made it even easier to get there?”

So, we have a lot of internal wisdom that we often don’t tap into, especially if we feel stressed or pressured, then we’re less intentional. And so, if we can really set up those things ahead of time, then we can be more intentional about how we go about getting to the next level.

Penny Zenker

So, one of the things that I also often talk about that is a lesson that I’ve learned over time, is that productivity isn’t the point. We spend so much time and effort trying to be more productive that sometimes what we don’t realize is that we’re being productive for productive sake. So, in a way, we’re just being busy.

I liken the quote from Confucius, that, “A person who chases two rabbits catches none,” and I changed that quote because I think, inherently, it may give us the wrong message because, when we chase the rabbits, and we get better at chasing the rabbits, we’re actually not accomplishing the goal, which is what? To catch the rabbit, right?

We can get better at the chase, but it doesn’t make us any more likely to catch one rabbit, let alone two. So, if we want to catch the rabbits, then we need to change that quote a little bit and say, “A person who chases rabbits catches none.”

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, yes. So, I’m hearing the emphasis. A person who chases rabbits catches none.

Penny Zenker

Not a person who chases two rabbits catches none, but a person who chases rabbits. So, the point isn’t what you might think, which is to chase only one rabbit and not two, and that way you’re more likely to catch it because you’re focused on one rabbit. But, actually, don’t chase at all because that’s not the point. The point is to catch the rabbits. So, build a trap.

But the point is that very often in work, this is what we do, is we get so focused on the task that we miss the entire point. If we’re more adaptable in recognizing and really connecting to what it is we’re looking to achieve, then we may find that spending more time doing that task is not productive, and that maybe we need to revamp the whole process. We have to be thinking about what we’re doing and how it connects to the big picture instead of just focused on the tasks.

Pete Mockaitis

But, yeah, it is easy to get caught up in it because it’s sort of fun. It’s like, “Oh, man, I am running way faster than I used to chasing these rabbits. Like, whew, that one evaded me by much less distance and time than before,” and it can be kind of seductive. Like, “I am cranking through more and more and more outputs over the course of a day. Go, me. I am such a winner. I feel productive.”

And yet, we may not actually be accomplishing the results that we’re after, but rather just getting seduced by the thrill of the chasing instead of just the maybe what sometimes is very simple, easy, boring catching. 

Penny Zenker

And look at it from also what we measure. So, we’re measuring that we get more productive in this chase. We talked earlier about call centers and help desks and things like that. So, if we take a call center and they’re tracking and measuring the amount of time that it takes to go through a call, then that’s what people are going to be focused on, and they’re going to be so focused on making sure that that call is as short as possible, that that’s going to be their focus, and they’re going to improve that and improve that, but they’re not really getting to the root cause of the problem.

And maybe that same problem comes up a hundred times, that if they just solved it at its root the first time and fixed it like that, then they wouldn’t have a hundred more calls. So, we have to be thinking about also what we’re setting as measures for people so that we’re driving the right focus as well.

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah, from a broader holistic perspective, your goal is advance a prospect as far as you can, whenever you have the opportunity is the main thing you’re after, as opposed to handle those calls fast.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Thank you. Well, Penny, tell me any other critical things we should know before hearing about some of your favorite things?

Penny Zenker

So, the critical thing that, I think, is important for people to know is that this concept is incredibly simple, but also incredibly effective. We talked about the 80/20 Rule before and its compounding impact, and also the ability for reset moments to reduce stress from compounding, but at the same time, it has a positive compounding effect of us getting to our goals faster and more effectively.

The more that we get perspective and focus on the right things, focus on that 20%, we’re leveraging off of that 80/20 Rule and compounding each time we choose and stay in that direction. So, I think that’s really important. And today, with how fast things are changing, that having what I call this reset mindset it’s built one reset moment at a time as it compounds.

It makes us ready for change or challenge or uncertainty. It changes our relationship with how we approach the uncertainty that we might face in the future or the changes or the challenges. So, it’s that, that we just need to be more comfortable, and happy to engage and embrace change as a catalyst and not a constraint.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Cool. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Penny Zenker

I recently came across this quote from Richard Branson because, as I’m looking for different types of resets and successful people who embody this reset mindset, I love his quote that I recently came across, which is that, “Every success story is a tale of constant adaptation, revision, and change.” 

Pete Mockaitis

And how about a favorite book?

Penny Zenker

Well, I think one of the ones that really influenced my way of thinking is The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Penny Zenker

One of the things that I love and I use every day is a tool called TextExpander.

Pete Mockaitis

Yes, our first sponsor.

Penny Zenker

I’m sorry?

Pete Mockaitis

They were our first sponsor, and I use them every day, yeah.

Penny Zenker

Oh, there you go. I love TextExpander. So, I use it all the time. So, it’s basically a way to have little templates and little snippets of text that I can just say #gig, and then a whole proposal will come up that I normally send out, or different types of links that I’m looking to get. If somebody wants my social posts, I just say #social and all my posts are there.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with readers and listeners; they quote it back to you often?

Penny Zenker

I think it’s just in my make more reset moments that I hear people saying that back, or what other people have said that they say in the organization, like after I come in and do a talk, that they’re encouraging each other to reset and make more reset moments.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Penny Zenker

They can go to TheResetMindset.net or PennysKeynote.com, and, of course, all the regular social channels. They can just look me up by name, Penny Zenker.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Penny Zenker

I think the final thing that I’d like to bring is one of the principles that I talk about in The Reset Mindset and that’s assume positive intent, something my mom taught me when I was a teenager. And I would say that I think, because relationships are one of the key things that makes us happy in our workplace, and it makes us better leaders. So, I would say that, really, with every interaction, just assume positive intent and really look for the bigger picture of looking for what you’re trying to serve.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Penny, thank you. I wish you much fun and focus.

Penny Zenker

Thank you so much for having me, Pete.