This Podcast Will Help You Flourish At Work

Pete Mockaitis
Elisia, welcome!

Elisia Keown
Pete, thank you. I’m so excited to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk executive presence, and I think your own clients have teed this up perfectly when they’ve actually said to you, “I’m told I should have more executive presence, but WTF does that even mean?”

Elisia Keown
Exactly. Maybe they leave out the WTF part, but they’re definitely thinking it. No, you’re totally right. Like, my audience is like that C-suite, VP-leader level, and that is one of the most common things I hear. And you and I were talking about it a few weeks ago that this theme of executive presence is so common, and it’s this blanket, I call it the atomic bomb of feedback of, like, we’re going to drop this big atomic bomb of, like, “You need to have better, stronger executive presence.”

And the atomic bomb part of it is it gets dropped and there’s no further explanation. It’s super vague. The executive kind of walks away from the conversation feeling super confused, like, “What does that mean?” And it’s one of the most vague pieces of feedback in corporate America, I’d venture to say.

And so I have made it a mission. How do we demystify it? How do we help define it? Because once you have that clarity, then you can actually work on developing that skill because it is an absolute skill, you can develop it. I do not believe you’re born with it. And then that changes everything in that leader’s trajectory.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that sounds excellent, and that really does ring true in terms of vagueness. And we could talk all day about vague words, like, “Have more executive presence,” or, “Be more strategic,” or, “Be more proactive,” I mean, that could encompass dozens, hundreds of potential behaviors.

Can you tell us how have you grappled with attempting a definition or a decomposition or segmentation of this fuzzy term?

Elisia Keown
Yeah, totally, you’re right. It gets handed down like zero instruction, and people can feel that absence.

And when even pressed, leaders try to articulate it. I find they struggle with it, too. So I don’t think it’s the leader’s intention to be vague. I truly don’t think they go out there trying to confuse the human. But without direction, it’s useless, right? It’s incomplete.

So what I try to do is break it into concrete components. And I usually work with the executive. If they’re unclear and they don’t have the direction, we’ll try to get clues and get little breadcrumbs based on the feedback and what they’re hearing and seeing so that they can have some of those moments of clarity.

And so what I found, it usually falls into these four kind of main buckets that I’ve seen. So the first one is thinking about emotional regulation. Emotional regulation under these high pressure, high stakes environments. We all know it. The big important meeting, speaking in front of the board, having to make a big decision.

So how do you show up and how do you have executive presence when things go sideways or there’s a lot of stakes in the meeting or risk involved? How do you show up and have that emotional regulation within yourself? So that’s a big one.

The ability to be decisive and making decisions quickly even when you have very limited amount of information, that’s very common as an executive, and remaining humble at the same time. So you can make a clear decision, you can still listen to the team, your colleagues, your drug reports, your boss, you can listen to everybody, but you can have that confidence to make a decision without arrogance. Very tricky.

The third, and this is the one I think that gets kind of lumped into executive presence, but how to have intentional communication. How do you speak with clarity, not with that emotional impulse? How do you know, just as important when to speak, but when not to speak, and when to stay silent and listen? And that’s tricky, and I think that’s a lot of the times we do lump it just into blanket communication as executive presence, but I think it’s intentional, clear communication.

And then the last is just being consistent with all of this. So executive presence isn’t always just about what you do in the big meeting. It’s more about what you do every day, how you show up every day, how you lead in the moments where people observing you and when they’re not observing you.

So I think, in summary, it’s not about being the loudest, biggest personality in the room, the smartest person in the room. It’s about being, like, the most grounded in your own leadership, in yourself, and having that self-confidence and helping people understand which of those levers they need to pull.

And because, again, sometimes it isn’t all four of these things that people need to work on. It might be one more than the other but it’s believing in yourself and then moving forward.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, that does paint a picture. Thank you. And, I guess, I’m also thinking about what’s not in there in terms of it’s not, you know, dressed like an executive with a cool suit or an expensive haircut. So I guess looking the part matters somewhat, but perhaps folks would probably just be able to say and articulate that more directly instead of executive presence, like, “Clean up. Get a suit that fits you right.”

Elisia Keown
And you’re right. I think there’s a lot of factors and a lot of things that people say will encompass executive presence. And just like you mentioned, it doesn’t mean those things aren’t important. It doesn’t mean, yes, if you work in an environment where a suit and a clean haircut and being well-groomed is important, and you don’t show up that way, of course it’s important. It’s just not everything.

And I think that’s the hard part because people think if I just solve this one piece that it’s going to encompass everything, and that’s not everything. I think it really, truly, when we say it, we typically mean one of those other four levers to pull. It’s typically not just what you’re wearing. You’re right.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, we can dig into each of these, but, I guess, maybe I’d love to get your take on. So this is a set of skills, and we talk about all kinds of skills here on How to be Awesome at Your Job. How important, in the relative pecking order of career skills development to propel you forward and advance and progress in your career, would you rank these sets of skills? Like, what’s the difference between being amazing at these things versus, “Okay, good enough, but you also have really sharp strategic thinking and prioritization skills going on”?

Elisia Keown
I think executive presence is probably one of, at least, top three because of this reason.

Executive presence, it’s not just this, again, visual effect of how you show up or a lot of people say charisma. It’s not just the personality. It really is, if you go deeper, like into it, it’s not just these behaviors or physical traits. It’s an identity shift.

And I think that’s one of the biggest things when you think about moving and shifting, you know, especially when you come out of some of those individual contributor roles or manager roles where you’re just managing a smaller team. Nothing wrong with that.

But when you leap into the executive level and you start managing leaders of leaders, it requires this identity shift from the leader.

And a lot of high performers, they’ve outgrown this version of themselves that got them to where they are. They’ve been very successful moving up through the organization. And now what’s required to go to that next level is, like, it’s almost like a death of their previous self. And you’re building that back up.

The hard part about that identity shift, though, is all of those behaviors have made you successful to this point. So because of that ego, it’s very hard to say, “I’ve got to let all that go and build upon what I have, and break into a new identity and see myself in a completely different way to level up into that executive presence.”

And so I really think it’s definitely top three when you say that. I don’t know if I can give it an exact number, but you can’t perform your way to executive presence. And I think that’s so often, as an individual contributor, you’re used to putting your head down, executing very tactical skills, all very important. By no means, definitely not disparaging that work, right?

So when I say the death or you’ve got to let go of it, it’s what got you there. But then you have to become this entire new type of leader, and the skills that are put before you, you’ve got to believe in yourself and you’ve got to have a mindset shift and look at yourself in a different way before you talk about those things you talked about like the strategic vision and the planning and the prioritization.

I think that all comes with it. But if you don’t believe that you are operating and believe in the level that you need to perform at, none of that other tactical stuff is really going to matter. So it’s this bridge into that leadership level.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I love what you said there, it’s like, you cannot execute your way into executive presence. It’s sort of a fundamentally different thing. And the picture that’s coming to mind for me is just, in TV, when we have the dork with the lab or the computers helping the crime fighters or the Jack Bauer catch the terrorists, they’ll say, “Well, I ran an analysis using matrix multiplication and we deduced that…”

They’re like, “In English!” you know, like, they get impatient, and it paints a picture like, “Oh, that person is clearly executing amazingly. Like, they know their stuff inside and out.” And yet the leaders are annoyed and frustrated. They don’t imagine that guy or gal has high potential executive future in store for them.

Because of their vibe of the ‘executive presence is lacking.’” So those are TV examples. But, Elisia, give us a real example, a story, a tale of a client who maybe got this fuzzy feedback and then did something about it and saw some results.

Elisia Keown
Yeah, you’re dead on. I love that analogy. It’s so funny, right? Because I think that’s what happens, is a lot of times clients come in thinking they need like a few tips, and what we really discover so much deeper, and it’s not just about what they’re doing, right?

So I had this client VP level, high performer. And, again, I always say this, I work with people that are already high performing. There’s nothing going wrong with their leadership, right? And some people think that it’s a remedy for something going wrong when, really, this is an accelerator.

So this person was already getting good results, already performing, but she’d get passed over for that next level, for that C-suite, the higher-level role. And what was happening was, when we started digging in and peeling back the layers, she was an over-explainer.

So the person that’s saying too many words, right, just like you said, or overly complex words, over-explaining every decision. She had a lot of hedging, and hedging is you’re saying things like, “I mean,” “I feel like,” or very passive kind of language rather than very decisive language.

And so it wasn’t about the skills problem. She had a lot of skills that have gotten her to this VP level. It was more being deferential when she was leading rather than being decisive and forward-thinking. And so a lot of what was happening though, again, as we peeled it back, it wasn’t about saying different words. It was showing up differently in terms of her identity.

She had a deep executive presence problem that was rooted in how she saw herself. And so she was still seeing herself as needing to prove herself. And we were way past that. So we really worked through thought process and identity.

And once we worked in that, within months, she was showing up completely differently in the room and then being groomed for that next level. Like, actually having conversations versus it not being on the table for her at all to move to that next level.

Pete Mockaitis
So when you say thought process and identity, what might that look like in terms of, if I’m saying, “I’m going to go work on my thought process and identity”? What does that consist of? What am I doing there?

Elisia Keown
Well, in the simplest terms, it’s the sum of the sentences that are running through your head and how you’re thinking about yourself. And so a really easy way to do this would be to, when you think about the situation, again, she was in a lot of board meetings, she was in a lot of meetings with her C-suite level leaders.

It was, “What was she thinking and how was she thinking when she was in the room, hedging, explaining herself, like, what was her thought process?” And trying to narrow it down to some of those sentences that kind of run through your brain like a stock ticker, right, and again, part of it could be as simple as, “I need to prove myself,” or, “I still need to level up, and I’m not at the level of an C-suite executive.”

So whatever that kind of sentence is that’s holding them back, that’s really what you’re trying to investigate. And if you’re doing this for yourself, it would be when you’re in some of those critical moments where, if you can identify when you’ve been told you need stronger executive presence, so if there was a specific meeting, what was some of those sentences that are running through your brain as you were getting told some of that feedback?

And, again, that’s a little bit harder to back into to undo, but I’d say the easiest way would be thinking of the specific example where you need to hold executive presence. And maybe if you were told you had weak executive presence, what was the sentence? What was the thing you were telling yourself in that moment? Because, truly, philosophically, it’s just how you’re thinking is really how you’re going to show up.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, Elisia, it’s so fun that we’re talking because you have unique vantage points into many people’s intimate thoughts, which most of us never get to hear. So lay it on us, what are some of the recurring thoughts people have that undermine their executive presence? And how do we deal with them?

Elisia Keown
I think the big one that I hear a lot of, and it’s the exact opposite of executive presence, it’s like saying that they have impostor syndrome.

And so some of the thoughts that sound like, some people will just straight up be like, “I feel like an impostor,” as simple as that. But some people will have the sentence of, “What am I doing here? How did I get here?” I’ve heard that one.

So looking around the room, seeing executives that are highly accomplished, highly tenured, multiple degrees from Ivy League universities, etc., and just saying to themselves, “How did I get into this room? I don’t belong here.” Essentially, the underlying thought could just be like, “I’m not good enough to be here.”

And so it will sound like that, it’ll sound subtle. And those thoughts could be very innocent-sounding, right, like, “Hey, let’s make sure we can perform up to the level of this room, right?” But in the essence, if we’re thinking we’re not good enough to be in that room, that can show up and start to show up in our actions.

So if we’re thinking, “I’m not good enough to show up,” or, “How did I get here?” and your feeling would, potentially, be like insecurity, lack of confidence, then you’re going to show the actions that you’ll take will be from that defensive position.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. And so what’s interesting, though, is that thought in the moment is you say thoughts and identity, that thought is naturally bubbling up from a belief. So I want to hear how you go after that.

We had Dr. Valerie Young, who may have coined the phrase impostor syndrome, on the podcast. And she had some cool perspectives along the lines of, like, “Well, so is everybody just an idiot if they made the decision to hire you and promote you?”

And so just to kind of, like, reminded me of some cognitive behavioral therapy-type stuff in terms of , “Let’s evaluate the evidence. Let’s really take a look at this belief. And is it kind of bogus or so?” So that was kind of some helpful practical stuff. But I’d love to hear you in the trenches, when you’re working with folks on these thoughts and identities, how do you attack them?

Elisia Keown
What a great conversation. I’m jealous you got to have that conversation with her, but I think that’s a great tip, and I think it’s the same thought process of looking at that thought. And, again, we get real granular, right?

We get in the moment, in the room, in the thought process, and really start to question it. Basically, you look at it and you say, “Is this true? Do you belong here? Do you not belong here, right?” And, generally, where we go with it is, “Why are we telling ourselves this thought?” and understanding that as well. Like, “Why would that be coming up for us?”

And, again, it can be so different for every individual, but, typically, what happens is, when we get in some of these tough situations, leading is difficult. Speaking in front of a group is difficult. It can be challenging.

Again, you can get better at it, it can feel easier at times, but it always, there’s that challenge of that fear of rejection. Leadership, a lot of times, is we’re separating ourselves from the group, from the pack, from the herd, right? And we’re standing out and we’re separating ourselves from the group. So in its very primal essence, it can feel like survival, it can feel life or death.

And so what happens is we go through some of that fight or flight, and the brain is telling you, like, “Hey, it’s scary, Pete. It’s scary to speak out in front of thousands of people or tens of thousands of people on a podcast.” And your brain is like, “Stay safe.”

And so some of the stay-safe thoughts can be like, “Hey, we might not be good enough to do this. What are we doing here? Let’s go stay back into the cave and stay safe and get quiet and really, like, pull ourselves back from this. Let’s go cuddle on the couch with a blanket and some snacks and watch Netflix. It sounds like a much better idea, right?”

And so it’s the brain’s protective mechanism to give you some of these sometimes snarky, sometimes nice-sounding thoughts. They sound really helpful, like, “Let’s stay comfortable,” because it’s just based on survival.

And so, sometimes when you know that, when you’re like, “Oh, this is just my sweet brain trying to protect me. Is it really true that I don’t belong here?” No. You can just say, “Thanks. Thanks for that thought. We’re going to go ahead and proceed with doing this podcast, speaking up in this boardroom, doing the thing anyway, even if we feel a little bit nervous about it.”

We can carry the nervousness, knowing that it’s normal and natural, and it doesn’t mean stop. I think a lot of people think that that feeling means stop, turn around, don’t take action. When really we can just carry it with us.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, that’s super helpful in terms of just understanding, reframing, “What is this thought, this feeling, this vibe? And what does it mean?” So that’s super handy. I’m curious about maybe some of the deeper work with regard to, it was like, “No, I really do think that I kind of got lucky to be in this role, and I don’t think that I belong and I really do think I’m faking it.” If we’re there, what do we do with that?

Elisia Keown
Yeah, totally. Well, and I think there’s two separate approaches. You know, I think if you’re thinking we really go down the path of someone has deep beliefs that they cannot overcome and they can’t see any other upside. I think, sometimes that’s where the difference between therapy and coaching comes in.

Like, if there’s some sort of hurdle that’s coming from their past or their internal beliefs from trauma or some other thing, that’s where a coach is not a therapist. That’s where, I think, sometimes you separate the application of support there.

On the flip side, another way to look at it, if we’re just thinking that’s not the situation and we’re thinking more forward thinking, it’s to say like, “Okay, where do we have evidence that that’s not true?” And I worked with a leader to say, “How do we look at the entirety in your body of work?” to say, “Okay, where can we show that that is not the case?”

And having the human come up with those things to say, “Okay, let’s start to look at our internal beliefs and be, like, really challenge them, right?” Because I think digging deeper, like you said, I think taking that, “Is this true?” a couple clicks further to be, like, “Okay, give me all the evidence that you really don’t belong here then.”

It’s funny, when they ask me that, like, “Tell me all the reasons why you don’t belong,” they’re usually like, “Well, actually, no, I’ve done this and this…” and they actually start to answer or asking questions of why they do.

And so I found that to be effective, like, “Tell me all the reasons. No, let’s stick on it.” And sometimes they really can’t. They can’t find beyond that just, like, triggering thought, like, why that’s actually true. So that can be really helpful kind of that path.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I really liked that notion of collecting the evidence, thinking about your experience. And just recently, I guess I coached myself in terms of, I was having some stuff going on. I was just like, “Oh, I kind of feel like a loser, you know?”

And so I was like, “Well, what’s the evidence?” I was like, “Well, you know, it seems like someone was upset about this, and I disappointed someone there, and I didn’t kind of get the things I wanted done on these days.”

And then I said, “Okay, so we’ve got that.” And then I was like, “Well, then what’s the evidence on the other side?” And just for funsies, I did all this research, and I was like, “Well, I mean, hey, I did that. And that was kind of cool. And really how many people really have done that?” And so I went ahead and assembled the spreadsheet.

And so what’s kind of fun, and this is true for every human. This is my latest kind of revelation I’ve been having fun with is that, if we take a look at the things that you have done, have accomplished, are good at, and how kind of rare that is, and then string together maybe 10 of those.

It’s fair to say for just about everybody that, by some measures that you’ve selected, you are the winningest human being who has ever lived, more than all 120 billion humans who have ever walked this earth. On those dimensions, collectively, if it were like a decathlon, you are the winningest person ever.

And so what was fun for that exercise with me, it’s like, I just sort of move on, it’s like, “Okay, the word loser is just like a nonsensical term that is ill-defined and not helpful. And if a loser is defined as one who never disappoints anybody and never fails, well, then there’s no such…everybody’s a loser.

Elisia Keown
Then I will own it. Yeah, right. Then just, “Okay, I’m fine, right? I’ll own that, Yeah, totally. What a great exercise. You did, you coached yourself. Good job, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. So I was collecting evidence via spreadsheets, I guess it’s a language that speaks to me. But I’d love to hear your prompts or your approach by which you facilitate this evidence collection.

Elisia Keown
Yeah, totally. Well, first off, you get a gold star. Great job. Great way to do it. And that’s exactly it. Exactly it, Pete. And I think, too, like, you said something that’s really interesting, too.

And so I want to really emphasize it, in the sense that looking back at what you accomplished and only what you could have done, if somebody else followed the playbook, they probably wouldn’t have the same results as you did, and just because all those things are making up uniquely you.

Can somebody do some of those things? Of course, they can, but they won’t be in the same magic and the way that you did it. And another way to look at this, too, is, if you’re not having failure, if you’re not feeling a little bit of the discomfort, if you’re not feeling a little bit queasy about some of things, your goals probably aren’t stretching you.

They’re probably not big in the sense of big in your own world. That can mean something different for everyone. So I’m not being presumptuous, and you have to do this, but a lot of times, as high-performing leaders or people that are entrepreneurial or accomplishing big things and setting big goals, you’re setting bigger goals for yourself and going after them.

So to expect that everything would go according to plan, that you would never feel insecure about them, or you would never fail at them, or you wouldn’t feel good enough for them, or you would feel like, “I don’t know how to do what I’m doing,” that is actually a false expectation, that we somehow believe that it’s like we do believe that everything is going to go according to plan.

We’re very optimistic, typically, as humans, a lot of those things. And when things don’t go, when we think that there’s something terribly wrong. But in your example, it’s like, “Well, yeah, I have a big fat goal and I might stumble but I’m going to still going to get it, right? I’m still going to go after it.”

“And if I’m not setting big-enough goals, like if it’s really easy, I’m probably not stretching and growing in the same way.” So a lot of it, like the coaching, I will do is to say, “Hey, some of this discomfort, some of this brain, we’re not going to solve the brain telling us that like, ‘Hey, in some instances, we don’t feel good enough.’” It’s a normal human condition. It’s part of the human condition, knowing that we can go after these big things and move through that discomfort.

That’s more what we’re trying to work towards is recognizing that in the moment. So it’s not trying to eliminate, it’s more so saying, “Oh, I see it. I can know what’s happening here. And now I know how to handle it, right?”

“Maybe I go back to my spreadsheet, or maybe I have my own method, I have my own things that I can do to work through it, knowing this is actually part of my currency. This is my currency towards success, and this is part of the game that I’ve decided to play.”

And it’s optional, right? In leadership or entrepreneurial ventures, it’s optional. So, “Do I want to put my chips in knowing this is the table stakes that I need to play or not?” Most people say, “Yeah.” They’re aspirational, they’re driven, they want to go after these things. So lot of times they say, “Yes, I’m willing to feel all of this and move through it.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s cool. Well, Elisia, this has been fun. I’ve been sort of just deep-diving into anything I found intriguing. But I want you to take the floor and tell us, what have you found to be beyond what we’ve already discussed, really just the most game-changing, powerful interventions, or exercises that upgrade executive presence in a hurry?

Elisia Keown
Yeah, totally. I’ll give you some practical tips. You know, I think the first one, definitely what we talked about, we’ll call it just like a download of your thoughts, right, a blank piece of paper, kind of like just dumping out your brain, looking at it.

So we can get it out of this, sometimes our internal spin, like just writing out what you’re thinking before you go into some high-stakes meetings or high-stakes environments to kind of look at the thoughts so you can decide, “Do I like this? Do I believe this? Do I want to keep thinking this?” And knowing that’s all optional, great exercise.

But beyond that, some takeaways that I can give the audience, just to really use in a really simplistic way without having over complex environments needed, is just going into a meeting and doing a pre-meeting reset of your brain.

So just a few minutes before the meeting, before any high-stakes situation, just getting quiet and clear on what your intention is. So thinking, “How do I want to show up in this meeting? What do I need to contribute? Who do I want to be in this room and any outcomes that I want to try to influence?”

And just being super clear, because that, again, that gets your brain focused on a problem to solve, “How do I want to show up? What do want to say? How do I want to influence? What do want to do?”

And having that for yourself, so that some of those other thoughts, again, that we’ve maybe dumped out, but they’re not going to sneak in, we have a focus, we’re clear, we can focus on how we want others to experience and receive us, rather than getting in our head about not being good enough. So, pre-meeting reset, quick, clean exercise just to go in with great intentions.

The second tip I would say, in looking at emotional responsiveness, how do you respond under pressure? So if you think about some of the highest-stakes environments you may be in, maybe it’s a really difficult conversation, like I said, a big presentation or a meeting, sometimes those moments reveal what your executive presence gaps are.

So you’re just doing your own reflection after some of those moments. Did you get reactive? Did you react in a way that you felt good about? What was your thoughts on the conversation? What went well? What didn’t? What would you do differently next time? Nothing more complex than that, but auditing yourself and your emotional regulation and executive presence.

And then the third is just watching your own language and how you’re coming across in meetings. So are you hedging? Are you over-explaining? Are you qualifying everything through the conversation, or are you being really, really clear? So how are you signaling your executive presence? And how can you practice being clear, saying less, but with more conviction in those meetings?

Again, simple audit, but why that’s important is, if you do those reflections, it will also reveal your thinking. So it’ll ladder back to, “What was I thinking when I was going into those meetings? And how was I showing up?” So simple exercises that anybody can do.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, and, Elisia, you got me thinking here. Nowadays, since the AI meeting assistants are ubiquitous, Fathom and a dozen others up in there, so you’ve got the recording and the transcript, and then you could even review it yourself or you could ask AI to zero in on some things like, “Hey, I’m working on executive presence such as A, B, C, and D. Could you highlight some things in this meeting in which I said that could use some improvement?”

And, again, my take with AI is, I never trust anything it says, but it can bring something to the surface for me to reflect upon, and that is useful in and of itself.

Elisia Keown
I love that idea. And I will say, the best feedback that you can ever get is, if you’re in an environment where you can have a recorded meeting and watch it back, it’s one of the most painful pieces of feedback, but it’s the best feedback that you can ever get, is just watching yourself speak. You’ll see it right away.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. I remember, I’ve had times where I was videotaping a buddy who was doing a speech and he asked me for feedback. I said, “Well, you do this thing where you kind of kept caressing your tie and it was a little distracting.”

He was like, “What? What are you talking about? No, I wasn’t.” I was like, “Well, I mean, I saw it like 10 times. You can look at the video.” And he said, “Oh, my gosh, Pete. I had no idea.” And so, yes, it really can be quite eyeopening and surprising.

Elisia Keown
Absolutely. You uncover the habits. I hope it was a nice tie. I bet it was worth it, right?

Pete Mockaitis
It was a great-looking tie, but no matter the tie, we don’t want to see you caressing it. It’s like, “What are you doing, dude? What is going on?”

Elisia Keown
Showing that tie off. It’s so funny. Subconsciously, you don’t even notice those things, right? Yeah, it’s such a great piece of feedback. I love that.

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely. Well, Elisia, tell me, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Elisia Keown
You know, I think that the number one mistake that leaders try… when they try to develop executive presence, they try to outperform it. They try to get more tactical. They work on the tactics versus the mindset.

And so, again, I know we said at the top, but I say, trying to do it through actions versus thoughts first, wrong way to go about it. And, especially, if you’re trying to copy somebody else’s style. A lot of times people will be like, “Well, speak like so-and-so,” or, “Model after so-and-so.”

Nothing wrong with taking elements of people that we see speaking and emulating that. But if you’re trying to duplicate it rather than do the work from within, I would say that would be my number one tip to walk away with.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Elisia Keown
Yes. Right now, I’ve been loving just choose your hard. I think it might be Codie Sanchez, it’s one of hers.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And could you share with us a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Elisia Keown
I have been digging into recently a lot of work on the ROI of coaching. So PWC and ICF did a study that talks a lot about the ROI of coaching to include that coaching has a five-to-seven X average ROI on executive coaching for leaders.

Eighty-six percent of companies, they report that they’ve recouped the coaching investment when they invest in those type of leaders, and they see 70% of improvement in work performance, which is wild.

Pete Mockaitis
Seventy percent, okay.

Elisia Keown
And then 70%, that’s a lot. And then a 50% reduction in leadership-related turnover, meaning, “I left because I was not loving who I was working with or for.” And we all know that boss is such a difference maker in how you experience work. And so people leaving, cutting 50% of that turnover, that’s incredible.

Pete Mockaitis
So it’s the coachee that did not turn over or the leader whose underlings did not turn over.

Elisia Keown
The leader whose underlings did not turn over because of their improved leadership capabilities. So that’s huge. That’s huge. And so, to me, I’m like thinking, like, that’s real even impact. So if you think about executive presence, it’s not a soft skill. It’s absolutely, it’s a lever to pull, and there’s a direct correlation to that financial impact.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. And a favorite book?

Elisia Keown
I just read and finished Start With Yourself by Emma Grede. She is a British entrepreneur. And so she has this chapter in the book on money. I’ve read it a few times now and I’ve been talking about it with other executives, and it’s powerful. So if you haven’t read it, it’s a good one.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool?

Elisia Keown
I’m a big fan of the thought framework of The Model by Brooke Castillo. So we kind of talked about it, right? Her belief is you have thoughts that create your feelings. Your feelings will create those actions. Your actions create results. It’s a simple model, but it’s basically what we were talking about. It all starts with your thoughts. And if you can change your thought process, you can impact your results.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Elisia Keown
So I’m a big fan of time blocking, planning, time boxing. And I don’t do it in the way of you just go through a to-do list and even time blocking on your calendar. I’ll take time blocking and I say, “This is the time that I have allocated to this, and there’s going to be an outcome.” So it’s not just like, “Just research the thing,” or, “Time to brainstorm.” It’s like, “This is the output and the deliverable that will be done at the end of this timeframe.”

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I like that a lot. I probably have ADHD, but I can relate to that notion, when you have a specific outcome, it makes it kind of exciting. It’s more like a game with risk and stakes and uncertainty. It’s like, “Am I going to be able to finish it? Well, I hope so, but in order to do so, I’m really going to have to stay on point.” And it just infuses a little more zip and interest into the thing.

Elisia Keown
Absolutely. I never thought about that way, zip. A little zip and interest.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Elisia Keown
Yeah, easy. ElisiaKeownCoaching.com. So it’s a tricky, tricky the way it sounds versus it’s spelled. So it’s E-L-I-S-I-A-K-E-O-W-N Coaching.com. And I love all the socials. I’m on LinkedIn. I have a podcast on all the major platforms, and to include YouTube. It’s the Executive Coaching Podcast. And we talk a lot about tips like this on there. So happy to give you some free support.

Pete Mockaitis
Alrighty. And do you have a final challenge and call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Elisia Keown
If you want to be a leader and you want to set these big goals for yourself, you want to move forward, get comfortable with the discomfort of leading. It’s not easy. If everybody was able to do it, they would, right?

And so growing, leading, it’s challenging. And so when that discomfort bubbles up, remember, it doesn’t mean stop. It doesn’t mean we’re doing something wrong, we need to turn around.

It is a signal worth listening to, but I would say, getting comfortable with the discomfort and keep going. You’re not alone out there feeling that way. And the world needs great courageous leaders that can move through that discomfort and go after the big goal, anyway.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Elisia, thank you.

Elisia Keown
Thanks, Pete. I love talking to you as always.

Pete Mockaitis
Attia, welcome!

Attia Qureshi
Thanks so much for having me. I’m delighted to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m glad to never settle, so I think we’ll get a lot of valuable insights here. Could you maybe kick us off? You’ve had some fun projects working with the FBI and the US Department of State. Could you perhaps no pressure, open us up with a thrilling high-stakes tale of persuasion, negotiation in action?

Attia Qureshi
So I’ll tell you about when I was in Colombia. The State Department had sent me to Colombia to get farmers to move away from growing cocaine to growing other crops like oranges. And this is a really hard sell because the cartel will come pick up the cocaine, hand you money, you can grow it on a small plot of land, and the cycle continues. They get money really easily, they don’t have to work with anyone else, and the cartel just comes and hands them cash.

But the problem is that, every decade or so, the cartel would come in and gun down the entire village. And so, while it was easy money and easy growing, the threat of violence was real. So they had an incentive to transition away. And I was at my eighth cooperative, it was 110 degrees, we were outside in a pavilion, and I have 40 middle-aged Colombian men looking at me completely unimpressed.

And they’re like, “Who is this young minority American woman who has helicoptered in to help us?” And so I start talking and, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, as soon as I’m getting started, there’s this guy in the back, and he opens up a case and out flies a drone. And it’s buzzing and the propellers are completely covering up the sound of me speaking. And I’m like, “What the heck is going on?”

So I paused for a second, and I had a translator and kind of an in-country handler with me. And I pull her aside, and I’m like, “What is happening here, Gabby?” And she was like, “Oh, well, he’s actually the co-op, he runs the cooperative, and he is also a mid-level cartel boss.”

And so what he does is at every cooperative meeting, he brings this drone, starts flying it around, telling the cooperative they’re going to get rich, from the drone, never explaining how, and distracts them so they keep growing the coca, which is benefiting him and the cartel, and never transitioning to another crop.

And so I have to do a little bit of self-work in that moment because I freeze for a second. I am a little bit scared, maybe a little bit more than scared. And I don’t know how to progress forward.

But then I take a deep breath, and that’s what I try to do every time I feel myself freeze in these types of situations, and I breathe out slowly because it reminds my parasympathetic nervous system, “I’m not under attack.” We have that fight and flight response.

So I take a deep breath. And then I have to rethink about, “Why am I here? I am here to help these farmers. I can help these farmers.” And, to be honest, someone has to stand up to this guy because these farmers don’t have the capacity, the security, any of it to do it.

So I look him straight in the eye as he starts his drone up again, and I say, “No.” And everybody freezes and everybody looks at me. Their mouths are open and they’re waiting to see what happens. And he tries to argue with me, and I’m like, “No, we have set ground rules. We have set norms for how we are going to have this conversation. If you want to participate in that way, you’re welcome to, otherwise I’m going to have to ask you to leave.”

And he leaves. And there’s this palpable sigh of relief in that moment. And, all of a sudden, everyone opens up, and they start engaging with the process and talking to me about how they might possibly transition to oranges, and what a business model looks like, and how they can get it to market, and who’s going to be responsible.

And so what we do is create a business plan for them and a process for how they’re going to operate over the next year. And they all sign it and the cooperative is still functioning and actually growing oranges and using that today.

But in that moment, there was a lot of pieces that I had to pull in for my own training. And, luckily, I have the muscle memory from building those skills where I was able to conquer that fear and work through that process.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Wow! So, takeaways, if there’s a cartel operator with a drone, you tell him no, and that works. I mean, what’s spooky is if you think of it in TV world, he leaves and comes back with a scary crew.

Attia Qureshi
Yeah, and weapons.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And so I don’t know if you and the others were in fear of that very outcome in the moment.

Attia Qureshi
I will have to tell you that, so I was there with a cooperative for a couple of hours. In the moment, I wasn’t worried about him coming back with weapons, but to be honest, I was very worried for the next couple of days that he would find me in the town that I was staying in because it was very close by, and then just be like, you know, “I’m going to take care of her.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay. Well, yes. So, indeed, it does take something strong, trained, powerful within to go there. How do we pull that off?

Attia Qureshi
So everyone thinks that negotiation and confidence, not everyone, but a lot of people think negotiation and confidence is innate, that we’re born with it. And that is absolutely not true. It’s a skill that we have to develop over time and build, just like athletes and musicians build and become great at their vocation. The same thing with negotiation.

So I have built that skill and I’ve had time over the last decade to do it, but we have to treat it as a performance skill. We have to break it down into the smallest pieces and practice exercises in our daily life, in low-stakes environments, to get to that point where the muscle memory kicks in.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, what are the key skills that build up to become negotiation persuasion?

Attia Qureshi
Okay, great question because I want to talk about a few of those. The first one I’d say is the internal negotiation, the one you have with yourself, which a lot of us are failing at, and it’s what makes us quit before we even get started. And then we have understanding their perspective, data, and the ability to say no.

So I’d love to start with the internal negotiation because I think that is one of the most important ones because unless we are grounded and secure and firm in making an ask, and feeling comfortable going in and making that ask, and having a framework for how we want to do that, a lot of us feel like we’re going to fail before we even start.

We see it as something to avoid or something that we have to conquer because in movies, everyone is sitting across the table from each other, banging on the table, trying to hash it out, and it’s, you know, eat or be eaten type of situation, but that’s not how it has to be.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, to become comfortable at making the ask, is that really possible? I imagine that it would be uncomfortable, but you could do it anyway? But tell us, paint a picture there.

Attia Qureshi
So I’ll give you a little bit of a backstory for me. I grew up as a child of immigrants, and my parents were really great at being liked and building relationships, which we talk about as something fundamental to negotiation success, but they were terrible at making an ask. And my dad’s whole mantra growing up as a kid was, “Don’t rock the boat.” So I was initially very passive, but then I was bullied really severely in fifth grade.

There was a girl, Bethany. And Bethany had decided that I shouldn’t have any friends. So I sat in the lunchroom alone and I escaped to the classroom because it was so cavernous and lonely. And she had convinced my teacher I did that because I was shy. And so it was a heartbreaking year, but a really important lesson for me and the power of influence.

So I had the opportunity for a fresh start. We moved after fifth grade, and I decided not this time. I developed a really hard shell, an exoskeleton around myself where I was great at kind of faking it till I made it. I would assert a position, refuse to budge an inch and threaten to walk away, which is very positional negotiation. It’s the idea of that table and hammering it out and, you know, “Either I win or you win.”

And that had some success in the moment, but it had really terrible long-term consequences of having any relationships that lasted or wanted repeat interactions. So I went from the one side of avoiding completely to the other side of seeing it as something I had to conquer and dominate.

And then I was sitting in my co-author’s Power and Negotiation class at MIT a decade ago, and he said something that changed my world. He said I could get more out of a negotiation if I shared my interests, but also cared about their interests and built a strong relational foundation in which to work together.

And I was amazed because I realized I didn’t have to be that scared little girl inside. There was this middle ground that I call relational negotiation, or others called principled negotiation, where I could build a relationship, and we could have repeat interactions, and I could create more value, tangible value for both of us through this process.

And so to your question, “Can we change?” Yes. And I think this relational negotiation path is a way that makes a lot of us feel better about how we might enter into the negotiation because it doesn’t have to be the avoidant or the conquering.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that sounds super. Can you share with us some best practices for doing that?

Attia Qureshi
So the first thing I would say is on the relationship side. People can always help you, it just depends on if they want to or not. So it’s a great practice to make sure that, around you, for the people that you interact with regularly, at work, at home, in your life, do you have a good foundational relationship with them?

And if there are areas where you can improve it, I like the idea of the technique reciprocity. Take them something small. Take them their favorite coffee. Take them a sweet treat. Take them, you know, tickets that you’re not going to use to some event. Anything small, it doesn’t have to cost you much, but it’s thoughtful for something they would like.

And the idea of reciprocity studies, I’ve found, is that it’s hardwired in us that we want to return a gift or a favor. So, at some point, they will want to return that to you. So what you’re doing is creating a virtuous cycle of improving the relationship so that, if down the road, you have an ask, they’re going to be much more likely to respond to it than they would if you have a negative or even neutral relationship.

But there are two caveats, because some people ask, “Well, what’s the difference between manipulation and influence?” And influences, in my perspective, it’s anytime you are trying to improve the situation for both parties, and if they found out what you were doing, they wouldn’t really care.

So improving the relationship without an expectation of anything in return is pretty great for both parties. But if you’re doing something that is trying to take something from the other party or is going to impact them in any negative way, that is what I would classify as manipulation.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So when you give something, it can be a manipulation if you’re trying to take something?

Attia Qureshi
Yeah, I mean, think about the idea of quid pro quo. Let’s say I buy you lunch and then I immediately ask you for something, that feels yuck. Like, “Come on, I know exactly what you’re doing here.” If I buy you lunch and I just want to do it because I want to improve our relationship, great. Then that’s just in itself, the whole goal is to improve the relationship. Maybe I might have an ask in a month or six months or a year, but that’s not my goal.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear you. Like, if you’re scheming, it does have a different feel. And, especially, if it’s very clear that you’re scheming. Understood. And we had Bob Cialdini on the show, who was fantastic. I see he endorsed your book. Perfect Choice.

Attia Qureshi
So good. Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And we talked about reciprocity. And I remember it’s in the book he had, Influence: Science and Practice, maybe it was a previous version. He mentioned the phrase, “I know you’d do the same for me.” Like, don’t say, “It was nothing.” He was like, “I know you’d do the same for me.” And it’s funny. It’s, like, do you have any alternatives to that phrase you like?

Attia Qureshi
I really like to say, “Oh, it’s really my pleasure,” because I think that I don’t necessarily have to point out that they would do the same for me because, from what I’ve read, which Cialdini has done an amazing job on the research of this, it is hardwired.

So I think that they automatically have that feeling, and I want them to feel that I’m trying to do it graciously and I want to do it for them. And I think that makes people even more interested in reciprocating and responding.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I like that a lot because it’s true, because it really is a pleasure to give someone something that they appreciate. It just feels good. People helping people and it’s gracious. It’s win, win, win. Okay.

Attia Qureshi
Yes, exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you’ve got a number of favorite negotiation exercises. I suppose, in your language, the small acts of kindness triggering reciprocity is what you might call a lemonade technique. But tell us about some of the others, like the best, fine, worst outcome exercise.

Attia Qureshi
So this goes back to the internal negotiation. And there are two things I want to talk about when it comes to exercises there. The first, we can talk about the best, fine, and worst negotiation outcomes.

So a lot of us have some sort of fear when it comes to entering into a negotiation. That’s what often stops us before we even get started or makes us freeze in the moment. And what you can do is, actually, in your head, close your eyes and think of, “What is the worst-case scenario here? Truly, like, what is actually the worst case scenario?” Then, “What is the moderate fine outcome? And what is the best case scenario?”

Because what you’re doing when you think through those, especially the worst-case scenario, is you’re inoculating yourself as you mentally think about that scenario to the fear around it and the worry of the feelings that come up with it.

And then I ask myself, when I look at those scenarios, “What is actually likely?  What is true here?” Because, then, we can start actually assessing, “What is our fear mentality that’s driving us?” versus, logically, rationally, once we diminish some of that fear and anxiety, “What do we actually think is going to happen? Likely, it’s going to be either the fine outcome or the best outcome.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I found that super handy. And I’m thinking about one negotiation I had, it was high stakes, and I was practicing with another negotiation guru, Kwame Christian, he’s been on the show a couple of times.

And it was fun on a couple of dimensions with this approach because, one, he had us do a role play. But I was role-playing my counterpart, and he was saying, I guess, what I was going to say. And it was a cool change of perspective because it’s, like, “Hey, you know what? What you’re saying is actually pretty reasonable.”

Whereas, I thought, “Oh, he’s never going to go for this. I don’t know. Oh, maybe I feel like I’m pushing too hard.” And it was like, “Oh, no, what you’re saying makes sense. And I kind of like the offer that you’re putting out there,” just as I am playing that role there. So that helped me get recalibrated to what is likely. And, indeed, that is roughly where we landed at the end of the day. So that was really cool. An eye-opener.

As well as the worst outcome. I’m thinking often I’m a bit of a people-pleaser, and we always talk about, you know, these sorts of things. Well, there’s the outcome, the money on the table, or whatever. And then there’s the relationship. And I can often be too interested in the relationship, just out of people-pleasing tendencies.

And then I really thought to myself, “You know what? If I got a great…” in this particular instance, “If I got a great outcome, but the absolute worst-case scenario is every time that person heard my name in any context ever, for the rest of his life, he screamed, ‘I hate that guy, Pete Mockaitis,’” which is totally unrealistic. I’ve never encountered any human in any context who’s done that.

But it’s like, “Even if that were the relationship damage, I’d be okay with it in this specific instance,” usually I’m not at all. And that really was handy. I wasn’t using your language, but that is a nice systematic way to cover those bases, “Well, how can I get a sense of what’s likely?” “Well, what really is the worst outcome?” “Oh, that’s actually not so bad after all.”

Attia Qureshi
Yeah, I love that. And I love practicing it with someone else and doing the live role play. That’s leveling up the skill because now you’re actually saying the words out loud and working through. And that’s even more powerful when you say it out loud, which, actually, I want to touch upon the next skill that I was thinking of, because it goes to that idea of people-pleasing, which is using an emotion label.

So we have a lot of these feelings. A lot of people feel like they are people-pleasers, that they have a hard time on the relational side. A lot of people are avoiders. They don’t want to interact with that at all because they don’t know how to respond. They feel like they’re going to freeze.

Some people are worried that it’s going to turn into a high-conflict situation and they don’t like that high-conflict stress. So what we’ve developed is an emotion wheel. And what you can do is start looking at the wheel, because sometimes we don’t know what the feelings are, not in detail.

So we start with six really simple emotions in the center, and we get more detailed as we go out. And the power in this is looking at the emotion wheel, thinking through, “What am I feeling?” Look at the whole thing and identify as many feelings as possible. And you want to write them down.

And then you want to say them out loud. And what I do, if I can, is I say them over and over again, because studies have shown, like MRI, brain studies have shown that when we do that, and we say them out loud, the feeling diminishes, and our rational brain gets re-triggered.

So our parasympathetic nervous system and our prefrontal cortex, all of a sudden, get re-triggered and we become more rational when we do that. So if I’m worried, you know, I had a big client conversation, a negotiation I had to have with a longstanding client. I’ve been working with them for five or six years now.

And I hate having the contract conversation. I absolutely hate it because I love the relationship so much and we’ve been working together for so long. And I recognized that I had avoided it for a day. I had avoided it for a week. And, finally, I was looking at my to-do list, and I was like, “Okay, I am afraid of damaging the relationship. I am afraid. I am afraid. I am afraid. I am afraid.”

And that helped me lessen that fear in my body, re-trigger my prefrontal cortex, and take the step to email them, saying, “Hey, can we chat about this?”

Pete Mockaitis
And what happened?

Attia Qureshi
Well, if we think about the best, worst, and neutral-case scenario, it went exactly as I expected. I made an ask, they countered, and we agreed upon something totally reasonable.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s great. That’s great. I’m reminded, we had on the show, Dr. Steven Hayes, who is famous for creating acceptance and commitment therapy. And I think he calls this notion defusion, is that if you say the word again and again, and it could be an internal dialogue, you made a mistake, you feel like an idiot, you think, “Idiot. Idiot. Idiot. Idiot,” or, “Afraid. Afraid. Afraid.”

It just kind of loses its oomph, its emotional charge and power. And then “Afraid,” or, “Idiot” just becomes…it’s just a word, it’s like, “All right. So, yeah, afraid. That’s a thing. That’s a word. It’s there.” But it’s not in charge, pulling the strings, calling the shots.

Attia Qureshi
I love that. I might start using that terminology because I really like it.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. Well, he’s great, check him out, Dr. Stephen Hayes. Okay. Well, let’s hear also about the say their name technique.

Attia Qureshi
So this goes back to relationship-building, and sometimes people say, “Well, there are people that I interact with one time, right? Like, that’s just a one time interaction.” And, for me, let’s think about the airline agent because it’s a perfect example of when we feel high stress, flights are canceled, flights are delayed, we’re stuck somewhere, we’ve got to get to work, we have kids at home, whatever it is.

And we have been standing in line for 20 minutes, which is already making us really frustrated. We get to the front of the line, and this is happening, obviously, to a lot of other people. We can either vent our frustration or we can take a moment, and this is, I’ll get to say their name, but this is another skill of having a little bit of empathy toward what they’re facing.

Like, if we can pause and take that breath, and we know our interests, but can we understand what theirs are? Which, in that moment, they’ve probably been yelled at for the last hour. They probably want to just have a breather. They want to be treated like a human being, and they want someone to just talk to them calmly and see if they can figure out, because they’re fundamentally there to help them.

So understanding those interests, taking a breath. And then what I like to do is I look at their name tag, and I had this happen to me when I was going to Charleston for work, and I said, “Hey, Regina, it seems like this is a really bad travel day.”

So I used her name and I also just picked up on what I noticed going on in the environment because she had had a huge line of people, and I’d been waiting for a while. And she took a deep breath and was like, “Ah, yes, it has been one of the worst travel days of the year.”

And what I did was, instead of her furiously typing and looking at the screen, she made eye contact with me and paused for a second, and we recognized each other as humans. And that small connection, when I then went on to explain my situation, made her feel just slightly more invested in helping me.

And she did figure out, rather than getting to Charleston at noon the next day on a Monday, and I would have missed the entire opening of a conference, she got me there by midnight. And she didn’t have to go out, like no one has to go out of their way to help you. They don’t. It’s kind of their choice on how much effort they’re willing to put in.

And so using someone’s name triggers something deep within them that makes you connect to them on a human level. And so it’s a way to get to the top of their attention list, make that connection, and then it really helps open up the way for your negotiation.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m intrigued, Attia, there’s often – we’re using names, right? You’re teaching me already.

Attia Qureshi
You’re doing great.

Pete Mockaitis
This notion that they can always help you, I think that’s generally true in terms of humans, professionals, friends, colleagues, acquaintances interacting, and living life. In a particular customer service scenario, I am wondering, though, is they’ll say, you know, “That’s the policy. This is all that we can do.”

And, well, now you got me wondering, it’s like, “Is it really the policy? Is that really all they can do? Or do they, in fact, have more capacity to help me?”

Attia Qureshi
I have almost always found, I can’t think back to a time where someone was incredibly rigid with me, that there’s somewhere else we can go with the conversation. Sometimes they are at their limit, but they can usually call someone who can expand the options.

So if they are being really firm about the policy, then I would say that was ineffective influence because they don’t want to help you anymore. But if they open up the options and say, “Hey, I can call my manager. Let me check on this piece of it,” which usually people can do, then there is a path forward.

Pete Mockaitis
Okey-dokey. Yes, that’s handy. And so, in addition to using their name, forming a connection, kindness, in these specific contexts, do you have any other pro tips? Like, folks, they’re working from a script, an operational flowchart playbook, as opposed to the wide world of creative win-win collaboration is in front of us.

Attia Qureshi
Yes, that goes back to what I mentioned about understanding their perspectives and having empathy for what their interests are. And that’s another really key negotiation skill, whether with these customer service agents or anybody, because we’re actually pretty good if we can take a step back from our own lives and situations and put ourselves in their shoes.

We’re pretty good at guessing most of their interests. We might not get it 100%, but we’ll probably get it somewhere between 75 and 90% correctly. And so when you do that, what you’re doing is you can have a conversation about that as well. You can say, “Man, you must be having a really long, hard day. It sounds like there are a lot of people who are facing cancellations, and I’m sure there are people who are angry.”

And what you’re doing is just guessing and empathizing with some of those interests or some of those things that they are facing, which, again, makes them a lot more sympathetic to you because you’re taking a moment to showcase that you can see what they’re going through.

And in other negotiations, let’s say it’s a salary negotiation or a promotion negotiation, it’s even more helpful because, if you can understand your boss’ perspective in that conversation, you develop more options or more pathways in the conversation to proceed, where they have budget limitations, I’m sure, right?

They have cycles in which they are allowed to work. They have pressures from their own superiors, etc. And when you start guessing at those interests, what you can do is broaden the way that you’re thinking about a negotiation by bringing in other opportunities for conversation.

Where, if it’s salary, and you still need some tangible value, but you know that there have been budget cuts, are there other ways to talk about value? Are there ways to talk about it with equity or bonuses or childcare subsidies or transportation cost coverage? And a lot of those items come from different budget buckets.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And you also suggest that we do ourselves quite the favor by practicing negotiation in low-stake situations. Can you give us some examples of places where we might do just that?

Attia Qureshi
So let’s think about, you know, you have a friend or a partner or a spouse that you’re going to grab dinner with over the weekend. Super simple, low-stakes scenario. And what I want you to do is write down what you care about. What are your interests when it comes to an evening out with that person? And then guess what their interests might be.

And then show them your list, and see how accurate were you when it came to guessing their interests, right? Maybe you recognize that your friend is trying to be more healthy. Maybe you recognize that your partner really likes novelty and wants a new place to go.

So you can write down all of those interests and share it with them and see how close you’re getting. And it starts putting you in the mode and mentality of thinking about your own interests and guessing theirs and seeing how well you’re doing at that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that’s super. And any thoughts on rejection?

Attia Qureshi
Rejection is brutal. And I will say that it does get easier, but I don’t know if it gets less painful, if that makes sense. I can just put myself through rejection more frequently. And I think of negotiation is anytime you’re trying to influence the situation with another person.

So it’s happening dozens of times a day with your childcare, or with thinking about food, or thinking about your neighbor whose music is really loud, or at work on who’s going to get how much workload, etc.

So it’s happening all the time. And that means that there are many, many opportunities for rejection. That’s just how it works when you’re going into a situation and making an ask or trying to resolve something.

And I think that if we can practice seeking out rejection in little ways, we can inoculate ourselves to getting more comfortable at rejection. It might still hurt. I’m not saying it’s not going to hurt, but it’s easier for us to go and get rejected and get over that pain more quickly because we’re building up our immunity to rejection.

So, for example, you could go, and when you go out to dinner, you could ask for something off menu. You could go to a coffee shop and ask for a particular drink that isn’t necessarily available or in season. And what people will find is that it’s actually harder to get rejected than you expect. And when you do get rejected, yeah, it might suck for a second, but you get over it a lot faster than you think.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, that’s handy. I remember getting lots of rejection letters for a book proposal, and it was the best thing because, like, “Hey, you know what? This is not so brutal.” And it made being rejected, I’d say, forever, after that, not as terrible.

Attia Qureshi
Yeah, and I love hearing that because I think a lot of other people have a really high fear of rejection that goes back to our feelings around a rejection and kind of what we tell ourselves about that rejection. But if we can look at that narrative we are telling ourselves and ask, “Is this true? Is it really true that I am unworthy or I am not good enough? Or is that something I’m just telling myself?”

And you can keep moving forward and continuing with those rejections that changes the whole game, because then you can go out and make bigger asks and make more asks. And, ultimately, at the end of the day, I want everyone to have more, more time, more money, more energy, more resources.

And, yes, sometimes you’re going to get rejected, but the more you ask, the more you will get. There’s this fascinating study that talks about how somewhere around 65% of people never negotiate their first salary, which will cost us somewhere between one and one and a half million dollars over the course of our career.

But people who do negotiate, somewhere around 87 to 90% of the time will get something out of it. So we overestimate the amount of failure we’re going to receive, which is meaning that we are getting so much less than we deserve.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Wow, thank you. Those are big numbers. Well, before we hear about some of your favorite things, could you share, are there any other super techniques, tactics, tips that you want to make sure you put out there?

Attia Qureshi
Yes, two more. So one is objective criteria or external benchmarks. Data shows that we hate talking about money. We don’t like it. We don’t want to bring it up. And what’s even more interesting is that people also wish it weren’t so taboo.

So what you can do, if you’re struggling with that, is go do some research, use AI, use ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini, and type in there what the context is for your situation, and ask for a range of what makes sense for that number to be. And that makes it so it’s not you bringing a number. You’re bringing data that supports a number.

But what I also want to encourage people to do is put the number out there that is most favorable to you to start. And that’s what we call anchoring because, generally, we stay around the first number that’s put out there. So data is very helpful with that piece, and anchoring gives you lot of power at where the negotiation goes.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, just to be clear with the AI, I guess I’ve just been lied to so many times by these darn things. I presume you mean you’re using that as a research tool to land at a quality verified source for the number.

Attia Qureshi
Yes, good qualifications. Yes, it’s a good starting place. Ask it for the data and then go double-check on what it’s providing you and make sure it’s verified correct.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, certainly. And you had a second one.

Attia Qureshi
A second one is the ability to say no. A lot of us, especially people-pleasers or people who like to be agreeable, care about the relationships, have a very hard time saying no. Saying yes is costing you.

It’s going to cost you down the road because it ends up creating burnout. It makes you overworked, overtired, or the other person ends up unhappy because you were unable to fulfill what you committed to.

So the power of no is really important in our lives, but it’s also important in a negotiation because they can smell it on you if you have the confidence, in your body and in your tone that, “Hey, I am willing to walk away because no deal is better than a bad deal.” You can look for another deal tomorrow.

Most of us are in privileged situations where, yes, it might suck that we would have to go look for another deal, but we could. We can. And no deal is better than a bad deal because you’ve already got the momentum going to find a deal.

So having the ability and the confidence to be able to say a no in a negotiation, and there’s a way you can practice that the next time someone close to you with a relationship that can withstand some pressure asks you for something, just say a firm, flat no.

Kind of like I did with the Colombian guy. And, of course, later, you can go back and explain and share what you were doing, but it’s a firm, flat no. No equivocating, no explaining. Because once you are able to give that flat no, giving a kind, polite no becomes way easier.

Pete Mockaitis
And I love that notion about the context of your available alternatives. And I’ve had it happen at my own entrepreneurial life as well as others that I’ve talked to. It was like, “You know what? I’ve got a lot of stuff going on. Someone’s asking me for a project.”

It’s like, “You know what? Right now, if you want me to do this project, it’s going to cost you – bam! – big old number,” and that’s like real. It’s like, “For me to assume more stress and responsibility right now, this is what it’s going to take.” And sometimes they say yes on the other side, it’s like, “Oh, maybe I should always put out that number.”

Attia Qureshi
Yeah, it’s true. It is so powerful in, first, helping us figure out what the value truly is on our end, and making sure that we are putting our resources where they are most worthwhile, and not sacrificing on relationships or our own mental health and wellbeing because we say yes too often.

Pete Mockaitis
Well said. All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Attia Qureshi
I think it would be, and I’m not going to say it perfectly, “A small group of people can change the world. In fact, it’s the only thing that ever has.”

And when John and I started out, John said something to me about how he had studied under Fisher and Rye, and Fisher had been part of World War II, and had seen the destruction and calamity there and wanted there to be a better way for people to negotiate and interact with each other.

And this relational or principled methodology offers that because it’s about relationship-building and creating value for both parties. And if we could all make one move toward that, how much better is our world because we are working collaboratively to drive value for not just ourselves, but a collective.

And that is so meaningful to me and it’s why I teach in addition to consult, because if I can get my students to do that and the ripple effect of that continues on, it makes an impact.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite study or experiment a bit of research?

Attia Qureshi
Frans de Waal started this study, and then Sarah Brosnan followed up on it, on how much we care about fairness. And Sarah did a study with capuchin monkeys on having them run a task and seeing what the results were, and getting different kinds of treats.

And what she found was that fairness is really deeply hardwired in us. We all want to be treated fairly, which goes down back to, like, do a relational negotiation, right? We all care about fairness and we’ll punish people if they are not treating us fairly. And it’s just such a great study. So I love that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Attia Qureshi
I really love, “The Alchemist.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool?

Attia Qureshi
I don’t know, is breathing allowed to be a tool?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, certainly, yes. What approach to breathing?

Attia Qureshi
My favorite approach is that you breathe in for three or four, hold it for three or four, and then breathe out really slowly for six or eight.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Attia Qureshi
A few minutes of meditation. Meditation has been one of the only things that has been proven to shorten the time that we stay in fight or flight.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate and folks quote back to you often?

Attia Qureshi
“Most people can help you, it just depends on if they want to or not.”

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Attia Qureshi
AttiaQureshi.com. And I actually do have a static emotion wheel and then an interactive emotion wheel on my website under AttiaQureshi.com/emotions, if people are interested in having access to a tool like that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Attia Qureshi
Negotiation starts small. We don’t just become great negotiators. So just pick one exercise that you heard today and try it and see what happens. And you can go from there, but just start small. Start with one small thing today and see what happens.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Attia, thank you.

Attia Qureshi
Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.