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Pete Mockaitis

Feb 28
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267: Managing Self-Doubt to Tackle Bigger Challenges with Tara Mohr

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Tara Mohr says: "Playing big is being more loyal to your dreams than your fears."

Tara Mohr offers deep insight into how our fears and inner critic operate–and how to optimally respond.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The key drivers behind fear and self-doubt
  2. A handy Hebrew distinction for thinking about fear
  3. How to consult your inner critic–and inner mentor–wisely

About Tara

Tara Mohr is an expert on leadership and well-being. She helps people play bigger in sharing their voices and bringing forward their ideas in work and in life. Tara is the author of Playing Big: Practical Wisdom for Women Who Want to Speak Up, Create, and Lead, named a best book of the year by Apple’s iBooks and now in paperback. In the book, she shares her pioneering model for making the journey from playing small–being held back by fear and self-doubt–to playing big, taking bold action to pursue what you see as your callings.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Tara Mohr Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Tara, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Tara Mohr
Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, I learned something fun what about you, which is that as a child your dreams were analyzed each morning with your parents along with breakfast. What’s the story here?

Tara Mohr
Yeah, I think I was very fortunate to grow up with a mom who was very interested in psychology and self-improvement, and believed she could start conversations about those things with me as a young child. And so, at a very young age she would say, “Did you have a dream last night?”, and then she would ask me about it and she would explain to me that the different characters in the dream could be different parts of myself, or they were symbols. And she would get out a yellow pad and we would diagram it, and she talked to me about architypes. And that’s how I grew up; that was just one example of how she brought the kind of conversation you have on this podcast. I was really lucky to grow up with that as an everyday matter in my house.

Pete Mockaitis
That is so cool. Tara, last night I dreamt that I got shot by a gun twice in different places. One was in just a value priced hotel, and the other was in my childhood home, recovering from the first gun shot.

Tara Mohr
Okay, that’s very interesting. We could really dive into that. And how did you feel in the dream after that?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I didn’t like it. Actually I woke up at 4:30 am against my will, and I was a little riled up. It took a while to calm down and fall back asleep.

Tara Mohr
Yeah. Have you ever heard the Buddhist phase “the second arrow”? Have you heard that?

Pete Mockaitis
Ooh, no. Tell me about it.

Tara Mohr
So it sounds very much related to what happened in your dream. So there’s this idea of, in life there are things that wound us, or there are feelings we have that are hurt, and that’s the first arrow. But then we often impose the second arrow of our reaction or the story that we make up about what happened, or the shame or guilt we have, or the self-judgments we have for having the feelings we have. So, that whole idea of being shot twice is interesting, and of course I would ask did something that hurt or wounded you, and then you went back in your literal childhood home or kind of in your family self? Was there something in the recovery process that wounded you further? That would be the first place I would look.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, nothing is leaping to mind, but I’ll definitely chew on that and see what happens as I explore, because we could spend a full conversation on that alone.

Tara Mohr
We could. And that’s actually dream interpretation, although part of my childhood is really not the center of my work now.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, tell us about your most recent book – Playing Big. What’s the main idea here and why is it important?

Tara Mohr
Yeah. Well, I found when I went into the working world, I had come out of graduate school, I had had the benefit of a good education, I was an academically-oriented and achievement-oriented person, and I was very surprised to find that I didn’t feel confident in those first years in the working world, I didn’t feel comfortable sharing my ideas or my voice, and I also wasn’t really going for what I really wanted with my career. I was kind of in a job that was fine but not great, but didn’t really relate to the creative dreams or the entrepreneurial dreams that I had for myself.
And I was really curious about why I was getting so stuck around that. And then I knew I wanted to do work in the personal growth world, partly informed by how I grew up, and I got trained as a coach and I started coaching people just in the early mornings before I would go to work, or sometimes in the evenings, on the weekends, around my regular job. And I saw again and again actually at all stages of career my clients grappling with the same thing – self-doubt, not trusting their ideas and their voice, not really going for what they really wanted to do and believing there was some reason they couldn’t.
And I got really interested in this question of why do we play small and how can we play bigger? And my definition of playing big is it’s being more loyal to your dreams than your fears. So it’s whatever that means to you. It’s not necessarily anything that would look “big” in the eyes of the world, but you know it’s the real challenge, the real work for you to live that life or do that work. It’s an individual matter of discernment. And so I started to make that the focus of my coaching practice – how can people play bigger in that way, what are the tools and ideas that help us?
And I found there really were a set of things that made a transformational impact. And so that became kind of an arc that I would take my clients through, and then I started teaching large groups that all around the world, and then it became the topic of the book. And now for 10 years of really being immersed in working with people around defining what “playing big” means for them, and then most importantly doing the day-to-day practices and work to bring that vision into reality.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool. Well, I like that simple distinction then – more so about your dreams than your fears. And it really kind of puts into focus in a hurry, in terms of what’s my thinking right now, the patterns, who’s sort of got the upper hand. And so, I’d love to get your view then, when it comes to these fears or lack of confidence and self-doubt, what are some of the key drivers behind it? Why is that there and what should be done about it?

Tara Mohr
Yeah. Well, I think that we all have a very strong safety instinct inside of us. And the safety instinct is a primal part of us that is a very deep part of our wiring to be on the lookout for any possible danger or threat, and make sure that we avoid it or we fight it, right? And our fight or flight instinct is there to make sure that if we see any possible risk to our survival, we go into fight or flight mode and we make sure we’re conquering in some way, or we’re avoiding.
And what we know now is that in our contemporary lives that same safety instinct gets misapplied to the emotional risks in our life. So, the safety instinct that should be very conservative and over-reactive if it’s trying to ensure the physical survival of people who are threatened by lots of predators or warring tribes or poisons, as our predecessors were – that instinct is now operating when we face everyday risks, like the risk of failure, the risk of feeling really uncomfortable, the risk of worrying.
We might feel like a beginner or feel clueless or be embarrassed or do something that really rocks the boat among our friends and family. And that safety instinct then tries to do everything it can to get us to stay in the comfort zone of the known or the familiar, and that includes making up a lot of narratives that feel believable but then aren’t true, like, “You aren’t qualified for that. Who do you think you are? You’re not enough of an expert in that. There’s too many other people doing that.” All those inner critic narratives we hear are really manifestations of the safety Instinct.
And the good news about that is it means that our inner critic is not going anywhere. And I know you have many listeners who are a little bit more in the earlier phases of their careers, and I think it’s so game-changing to understand early that confidence doesn’t actually come in an enduring way with experience.
There was just a study done through KPMG that looked at confidence levels among professional women, and they looked at how many women early in their career would say they’re confident, and then how many executive-level women, senior women, would say they feel confident in their work. And the difference between those two groups was only about 10%, in terms of how many indicated they were confident.
In other words, experience didn’t change it, because when you get into a new senior role – sure, you’re more confident about some things that you did a long time ago and you’ve been doing for a long time, but you have a new edge, and the voice of the inner critic and self-doubt comes up again because that safety instinct is perceiving more emotional risk, no matter what the situation. And so we’re really not looking to get rid of the inner critic or find some unfailing sense of confidence. The “playing big” process is in part about learning how do you hear your inner critic, let it be there, know it’s always going to be there when you’re doing important work, and just not take direction from it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, thank you. So that is powerful, to assimilate that really inside your psyche there. The inner critic, as you said, it doesn’t go away – the KPMG study is pointing to that. And in a way, that kind of unmasks everything.

Tara Mohr
It does. And there are so many lies we tell ourselves. We tell ourselves, “Well, when I get to this stage in my career, then I’m going to feel confident.” We also tell ourselves, “If I get that additional certification or degree, then these uncomfortable feelings of self-doubt or uncertainty or fear will go away.” We tell ourselves, “If my weight changes and it’s this amount, then I’m going to feel confident getting up and sharing my point of view in front of a group.”
We fill a lot of things into that blank, and what we’re really doing there is making it convenient for ourselves to put risks on hold, put playing bigger on hold, put really stepping into our gifts and using our natural talents and gifts more, which is actually a very vulnerable thing – put that on hold thinking something is going to come along that’s going to bring confidence. But it doesn’t. And what we want to do is really learn to work effectively, live effectively with the voice of self-doubt, letting it be there but not taking direction from it, not letting it make our decisions.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s so powerful. And so then the implication is that you’re going to feel some lack of confidence and some self-doubt till the day you die, right?

Tara Mohr
Hopefully, right? And I say “hopefully” because it comes up most strongly when you are on the edge of your comfort zone. So for those who might be sitting there right now thinking, “I don’t really hear my inner critic that much”, I would ask you two things. One – make sure you’re looking across all areas of your life, because sometimes people think, “I’ve kind of got it down at work”, but then they’ll realize, “Oh my gosh, in my dating life, or in my parenting, or my body image” or, “I’d love to play music again but I have that voice in my head saying…” So look across all areas of your life.
But second – notice where that lack of inner critic is just kind of a dead-end part of your life, where you are not pushing yourself to an edge, you’re not doing what really matters to you, you’re not being loyal to those dreams. The inner critic will come up when there’s vulnerability, and so if you’re doing something that is 100% in your comfort zone and routine to you and not very important to you, you might not hear it, but that’s not a good thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, I’m with you there. And so then, I also want to get your view – now, there’s a bit of a postponement factor – the way that the inner critic can sound, in terms of, “Hey, if this changes – if I lost the weight, if I got the certification, if I had a certain preparation – then I would feel confident.” And so now, for the most part that seems like that is often a lie. It is a deception that is destructive, but at the same time there are times in which no, you really are not prepared for that opportunity or that dream that you’re thinking about, and some action, some preparation is necessary to get there. So, I’d love your view on, how could we prudently discern the difference, and what’s a wise means of thinking through that, so that you get the valid prep steps done but you don’t delay yourself till it never happens?

Tara Mohr
Yeah, yeah, and it’s so funny that you are asking that specific question, because I just got off of our course call and we were exactly talking about this piece today. So there’s a few things I’d offer around that. One is, pay attention to the evidence that you’re getting from the world. Are you getting clear repeated information from the stakeholders that matter to you, that you need more preparation? In other words, maybe you want to offer a support group for moms, and you do a trial day where you invite a few moms in your community to come together, and you put together a great little program for them or whatever.
And then you hand out feedback forms and you notice there’s really a theme on the feedback forms, that people felt like they wanted more content or more expertise. And you hear again and again that your audience is asking for a different level of preparation and knowledge for you – okay, then you have some evidence. But most people never get to that stage of even asking their intended audience for information. They make up a story in their head and it’s usually a convenience story that allows them to hide a little bit that they need to do a lot more preparatory work. So that’s one piece – is it coming to you in real information and evidence from the outside world?
A second is, what’s the energy that you have or the beliefs that you have around that preparation? If you notice that in a very sort of joyful, light, abundant kind of energy you feel like, “I’m going to go learn more so I can do even more here, and this is going to be an enriching process for me” – that can be a great thing to follow. But if you notice that you’re feeling, “I don’t know enough until…” or, “There’s no way I could contribute any value until…” – the sort of like “This will complete me.” It’s like the equivalent of the romantic “He or she will complete me” feeling. Notice that, and that’s kind of a clue that you’re probably putting a story there that is more about fear than about the external thing itself.
And then a third thing I would offer is… A real issue in our culture is that we tend to put all the emphasis on expertise, and have a kind of cultural narrative that the people who contribute value around a topic are the “experts”. And that’s a view that’s really enforced by our educational system, reinforced by our educational system that says if you want to do something in X topic – if you want to do something around history – go get your degree in history. If you want to do something in serving kids, go get X degree. We’re looking for, what information do I need to absorb to be able to contribute value on that topic?
And that is certainly important, and you’re talking to someone who really values education and has a graduate degree and I believe it’s very important that we have those places to get expertise and we have experts in our culture. But on any given subject there are people contributing value as the expert. Let’s take for example breast cancer. So we have our experts who have PhDs in breast cancer treatment and prevention and rehabilitation and so on. And they’re playing a certain role.
But then we have other people – we have people who are survivors, who have different insights and a different sensibility and can contribute something different, in terms of sharing a message, inspiring people, improving upon services, innovating. The experts can never bring what they can bring.
And we have other people who I would call “cross-trainers”, who come from a completely different type of expertise – maybe they come from the design world or the business world or the activism world, and they can take their lens and their expertise and look at a new topic. And because they don’t have formal training in it and they’re bringing a fresh lens, they add value in a different way. And I think we really deemphasize those things.
So that’s another question when you’re discerning, as you’re asking, Pete – do I get more training? Part of it is, who do I want to be? Is my calling to be the expert on this, or is my calling to contribute value in a different way? And really we can’t discount how significant the value is that people contribute, who are coming from that cross-trainer or survivor perspective, not from the formal expert perspective.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, so much good stuff. Okay, so we’ve amassed a big lie, we’ve got a nice distinction here associated with, is preparation necessary, and some indicators how the inner critic can be a useful indicator, in terms of maybe pushing harder toward the edge. So, that’s a lot of great stuff. So now I’d like to zoom in sort of in the heat of battle. You’re trying to do some bigger things, and tell us, what are the particular fears that arise and your pro tips for responding to them?

Tara Mohr
Well, I’ll share a little bit about how I look at fear. And in the book I call this “a very old new way of looking at fear”, because I’m drawing here on two terms that are actually Old Testament, ancient Hebrew terms. These are two words that are used in the Old Testament to describe types of fear. And when I came across these I kind of fell off my chair, because I felt like they were so illustrative of what I was seeing with my coaching clients, but I had never heard about them before. So let me walk you through the two.
So the first word is “pahad”. And pahad is defined as the fear of projected things or imagined things. So this is when we imagine the worst case scenario of what could happen. It’s when we project the movie of how things might play out. And most of the fear that you and I and our friends and colleagues experience on a day-to-day basis is this, right? We are imagining a potential outcome and feeling afraid. It’s an anticipatory feeling; it is not usually about what’s happening right now, in this moment, but about what we fear could happen.
We know – not from the Old Testament but from all the biological and neuroscience research that has come since – that this kind of fear is generally over-reactive and misleading. We know for example that when we learn to fear a particular thing through conditioning – let’s say we get bitten badly by a dog and then the way the human response to that works is we learn to fear being bitten by a dog. We also know that we have a very generalizing response to that experience, so we won’t just become afraid of that dog; we might become afraid of dogs in general.
And in the foundational experiment that was done on this in the 1920s, they could actually see how by priming a baby to be afraid of a small white mouse… The baby initially was not afraid of the white mouse, but then they paired it with a very loud startling noise, and so then the baby started to associate the two and would see the mouse and would have a fear response. But then the baby also became afraid of a white rabbit and a white cotton ball and a man with a white beard.
This is what we’re also doing in our adult lives, right? Whether that’s you had one negative relationship experience and now you’re generalizing that a certain type of relationship or a certain type of person – you’re going to fear that. Or maybe you did something in one professional environment that was met with really painful feedback, and then you come to fear a whole set of associated things. So that associative quality of our fear response means that fear misleads us, because of course that white rabbit and the white beard and the cotton ball are harmless, as are many of the things we come to fear.
Another way fear misleads us is that we learn what to fear not just from our own experiences but also by watching what the people around us fear. And that of course happens in early childhood for a lot of us, and happens in problematic ways because many times the fears that those around us have are based on their own false stories. So all to say when we have pahad kind of fear, we do not want to believe it or let it be in charge; we need to know, “Okay, I’m in pahad, I’m in that anticipatory fear. It is probably not accurately guiding me and I want to shift myself out of it.” And you can do all kinds of practices, whether it’s calming your nervous system through meditation or shifting into another energy. I like whenever I’m afraid to just focus on, “What can I be curious about in this situation? What can I get really interested in?” Because if you’re in curiosity, you can’t simultaneously be in fear. So we always want to be looking at shifting out of pahad.
Okay, the second kind of fear that is mentioned in the Old Testament is something we really don’t talk about in our culture, and the word for that is yirah, is the ancient Hebrew word. And that has three definitions. Yirah is what we feel when we are inhabiting a larger space than we’re used to. It’s what we feel when we suddenly have more energy, when we come into possession of more energy than we normally have. So think about in your life, like what lights you up, what fills you with energy, your passions, using your gifts, telling your truth – whatever gives you that infusion of energy. That kind of exhilarated, scared feeling that can come with that – that’s yirah. And the third definition is this is what we feel in the presence of the sacred. So in fact when Moses is at the burning bush, yirah is the word used to describe how he feels when he’s at the burning bush.
So this was very significant for me to see as a coach and as a human being, because I understood that when I was working with people and they really told the truth about what they wanted, or they made a momentous decision that really resonated with the core of them, this was the feeling they felt. And it did include fear; it also had awe and exhilaration in it. And yirah is really different that pahad. We don’t need to shift out of yirah; we kind of need to learn to tolerate it and breathe into it and not find it such an electric infusion of energy that we block it or numb out or avoid the things that bring it. So that is the framework we use in the “playing big” model for working with fear.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s so interesting when you say yirah, if I’m pronouncing it correctly. When you say “inhabiting a larger space”, this is kind of both literally and figuratively?

Tara Mohr
Exactly, exactly. So certainly when people step onto a bigger stage, speak to a bigger audience, maybe stand at the front of a bigger conference room, or whatever that might be. There’s literal spaces and then there’s the figurative, like I am reaching more people or I am being willing to take up more room. You can look at it that way as well.

Pete Mockaitis
That is so cool, because I really do find if I have a speaking engagement and I arrive there early, I actually love it. When I’m in the room and it’s completely empty but there are hundreds of seats there, there is a sensation – and now I’ve got a word for it, thank you – and I love it. It’s just so full of possibility. And it’s interesting you say “presence of the sacred” because it does often prompts me to pray – not because I’m terrified, but it’s just like there’s a bigness to it, and that’s just sort of a natural response for me. And that’s so cool and I think really eye-opening, because maybe my personality is I’m just like, “Oh yeah, I love that. Bring it on! I want some more of that in my life!” But you’re saying that for many of us, “Oh no, that’s just too big and I can’t even sort of abide there for very long without getting into maybe like a freak out type of sensation.”

Tara Mohr
Yeah, that’s what I find, that it’s both wonderful and it often feels wonderful when we’re in it, but there is a quality to it of, it’s a heightened state, it does take us out of our comfort zone a bit, it does have that component of fear or almost breathlessness in it. Sometimes it asks us to change, right? Like you could imagine that if you were in a different career and you were only doing speaking once a year or every 18 months and then you felt that feeling when you were speaking, when you were doing public speaking –that’s telling you something about your life and your career, which you may or may not want to hear at that point, because it might ask you to make some changes that require courage or trade-offs and so on. And so we do sometimes try and block the yirah or turn away from it.
I think also yirah, for a lot of people there’s kind of transcendence of the self that comes with it, and you may find when you’re doing that public speaking, you get into the zone, you get into flow state – you kind of lose the sense of Pete and you’re one with the words or you’re one with the audience. And then at the end it’s like, “Oh, where did I go? I went fully into that.” And that happens for a lot of people. The things that bring them yirah – they lose their normal sense of self while they’re doing them, and that’s that flow state, that kind of immersion, what Martin Seligman calls our “gratifications”. And that can be a little bit threatening to our ego sometimes, because our ego likes to be, “I’m Tara”, “I’m Pete”, “I’m in my mundane sense of self.” It doesn’t really like that transcendence of self, and so that could be another reason we resist it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Excellent, thank you. So then you say that’s kind of the different prescription then, in terms of with the projected things and fear. It’s a matter of, “Hey, slow it down, calm it down.” And with yirah the big stuff is being able to hold on for a bit.

Tara Mohr
Breathe into it, lean into it, notice what brings you it, pursue those things. Yeah, exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So now thinking more a bit about self-doubt and it popping up – you say that confidence is not the prescription or the answer to self-doubt appearing. Tell us a little bit more about that, and what is?

Tara Mohr
Yeah. Well, just as we were talking about before – if confidence isn’t coming and if the inner critic is always going to be speaking up when we are on the edge of our comfort zone, we certainly don’t want to wait on confidence to do our most important work. And instead of looking for aiming for confidence, I believe we need a new relationship with our self-doubt. And so that has a couple of components. The first is being aware when you are hearing your inner critic.
For so many of us the inner critic is the background noise that we live with, it’s the music that has been playing in our head for a long time, we don’t even hear it anymore, it’s the water that we’re swimming in. It’s like, “Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I’ve never been good at that kind of thing”, “Oh, those people over there are the ones who have it going on and I’m the outsider, “Oh, my body this and that” – whatever your inner critic lines are, many of them become just so habitual you don’t hear them anymore, or you hear them as those are true facts.
So step one here is starting to be able to notice and name your inner critic, so that in those moments you can say, “I’m hearing my inner critic right now.” Now, a lot of times that’s enough; it’s just like a mindfulness practice. That’s enough to let you go, “Oh, if I’m hearing my inner critic, then that’s certainly not the part of me I’m going to listen to.” But sometimes we do need a secondary tool, and there’s a whole range of things that can be effective – sometimes for people creating a character that personifies the inner critic so they can actually see, “Okay, my inner critic sounds like the perfect housewife”, or the stern old mean professor, and really getting a visual, so that when you are hearing your inner critic line you see it as coming from that character. And all of a sudden then there’s humor and you can have perspective on it.

Pete Mockaitis
What are some names that you’ve heard given to inner critics?

Tara Mohr
Oh gosh, all kinds of things. I feel like there was a year there where everywhere I would go and speak, the inner critic was always a Downton Abbey character. I’m trying to think of the name. The evil folks downstairs in Downton Abbey, and Harry Potter characters, and sometimes it’s a random name that comes to people and then I always have to hope there’s no one else in the class with that name. Sometimes they won’t write it down because it’s their colleague from down the hall and they don’t want that their worksheet from the program is seen by anyone later. So yeah, creating a character can be useful.
I really like using another tool, and I’ll share an example of how I used it for myself. When the Playing Big book was coming out, about six weeks before the publication date, I got an email from my editor at Penguin and she said, “Oh Tara, great news – we’ve piqued the interest of the editors of the Sunday Review section of the New York Times. They’d like you to write an essay based on Chapter 6 for their consideration for the Sunday Review.
So I see that and my mouth kind of fell open because I didn’t even know they were pitching them, or I had no idea that was even on the table. And my very first thoughts were, “Oh no, this is going to be a huge waste of time. I have an actual book launch to prepare for and a lot to do, and now I’m going to have to spend all this time writing this piece, which we know is never going to be published, because people who write for the Sunday Review section sound very grown-up and articulate in their writing, and Tara, you know you’ve never sounded that way.”
That was what the voice in my head said. And that voice and those thoughts pretty much stayed cycling that way for a few days. And then there were some other ones that got added in, like, “You can’t write about this for a co-ed audience because the book had been directed at women”, and, “There’s no way you can translate that chapter’s topics into an op-ed; it won’t make sense.” I had piling on every problem and excuse.
And on about the fourth day of this, somewhere there was a little graced thought that flew into my head that said, “You know, Tara, maybe that’s your inner critic talking.” Now, this is like a primary subject of the book that I had just written, but it took me four days because in our own minds the inner critic always sounds like truth. But on the fourth day… And that’s what I think we can get with practice – it might not be immediate but it didn’t take me six months at least. On the fourth day the voice said, “Maybe that’s the inner critic.” And of course internally my response was like, “No, no, no, it can’t be the inner critic. There’s no way you can pull off this piece. Your writing and your voice is just not mature enough.” But another voice said, “You know, this kind of sounds like an inner critic.”
And then I used this tool, which I love, which is to say, “Well, what does my safety instinct not like about this situation?” Because I know that my inner critic is always going to be a strategy of my safety Instinct. So, when I asked myself that question: “What does my safety instinct not like about this situation?”, the whole picture looked so different to me. I could suddenly see, “Wow, this is basically the worst nightmare of an emotional safety instinct”, because in one scenario here I’m going to write a piece that my editor thinks is not good and I’m worried she’s going to write back and be like, “It’s not good enough; I can’t pass it on”, and that’s going to be painful. Another scenario is the New York Times editors say that, and that will be painful because that will make me feel like I don’t measure up.
And even in the best case scenario, what’s my big reward? It’s that 3 million people are going to judge what I write and have opinions about it. And that’s scary for a part of us, for sure. And it can be especially, I would say, even more so often for women, because we are really socialized to not rock the boat and not do things that bring criticism. And I knew if I write an op-ed about some of these issues in the New York Times, they’re some controversial topics, there’s going to be a mixed reaction.
So then I could see, “Okay, I get it. I get what my safety instinct doesn’t like here.” And I’m going to lovingly parent that part of myself and say, “I get it. This feels really big and scary to you. We’re going to be okay. I’ve got this, and you’re allowed to be here with all these fears, but there’s another part of me that wants to be in charge here – the part that loves writing, that wants to get these ideas out, that likes taking a seat at the table in this way.” And that allowed me to proceed.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful, thank you. That’s a great illustration, and talking about the second arrow – coming full circle here. You’re beating yourself up maybe, associated with, “I’m supposed to be the expert on this and I can’t even…” There may be a risk of some self-judgment even when you’re trying to apply the tools and are aware of this wisdom here.

Tara Mohr
Yeah, and luckily I do. That part I feel very clear on, and I would offer that to people too, that I never have felt I need to be an expert on these things and be flawlessly playing big in my own life. I feel the opposite – I feel the only way I can stay interested in these topics and have something relevant to say about them is if I’m really grappling with them and I am compelled around these topics, because I’m a fellow traveler. And so I proudly use all these tools myself and always try and work my own playing big edges myself.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome, thank you. Well, Tara, tell me – is there anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some your favorite things?

Tara Mohr
I do want to mention inner mentor for a minute, because I think that’s such an important topic, and it’s really kind of the antidote to the inner critic; it’s the other voice in us that we talk about a lot in Playing Big. And the idea with the inner mentor is that rather than always seeking external mentors and looking for that person out there that has the answers for you, you come into contact with a sense of your own older, wiser self. And so in the book we do a guided visualization, so you can meet yourself 20 years in the future.
And what people find is they don’t just meet their older self, they sort of meet their elder, wise self, their authentic self. And then you can really consult and dialogue with that part of you as a mentor. And it is absolutely the best mentor you will ever have – all its answers are customized for you, it is always available to you. And so, that’s just been such a powerful tool and I want to make sure people know about it, because I’ve watched it be really, really pivotal for so many people now.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s so interesting, and I’m right now imagining an older, wiser Pete with a cane, sitting on a log on an autumn day.

Tara Mohr
Well, we can do that right now. Yeah, so one thing that you are finding a
dilemma right now – just ask him for his perspective on it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, yeah. Well, so the silence there… Yeah, I was just thinking about, I just have a new baby. Yay! My first son.

Tara Mohr
Congratulations!

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. And so, I’m just thinking about, what’s prudent, in terms of kind of growing business without spending crazy hours, in kind of a way that would be troublesome for a family living. And so, it was only a few seconds, but what I’m picking up is the notion that there’s no need to sprint, rush, rush, do more, is kind of a wisdom nugget I’m starting to unpack there.

Tara Mohr
Yeah, and it sounds like… So did he kind of give you a vibe or a perspective around this question that was a little different than what you were holding in your mind before?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, kind of, yes. Because my instinct is to, “Alright, strategize, let’s figure out what is our optimal point of leverage”, as opposed to having a bit more of a calm, spacious, patient view of the matter.

Tara Mohr
Yeah. So Pete, it sounds like you tapped in really quickly, which is wonderful. Even without doing a longer visualization you could just call up a picture of him and then connect with a voice that was different than that of your everyday thinking, and that’s exactly it. And usually that inner mentor voice is more spacious, it’s more calm, it’s more loving, and it does give us something really different. I can’t tell you how many times people will come with like, “I don’t know, is it A or B? Is it A or B? And I’m stuck between A or B.”
And they check in with their inner mentor for a second and there is a C option that comes that they didn’t perceive before, that feels really right and gives them kind of a new path forward. So, it’s an amazing tool and it sounds like you have it right there at your fingertips. For people who feel like they need a little more help or if you just want to have a deeper experience with that, there’s an audio that you can use and a written form also in the book. But it’s a great tool to tap into.

Pete Mockaitis
That is wonderful, and I’m glad you highlighted it before we moved on to the next phase. And it’s so funny, I’m tempted – you tell me, is this a good idea or a bad idea – when it comes to the visualization, one of my knee-jerk reactions was, “Oh, I bet there is a website where I can put a photo of myself and see what I look like when I’m old.” And it was like, “Hm, on the one hand that could be interesting and help bring about a picture, but on the other hand, maybe I won’t like the picture.”

Tara Mohr
Yeah. I would say, let your subconscious mind do it because it’s sort of going back to our dream conversation – you’re going to see where this person lives, how they live, how they carry themselves. You want your right brain and your intuition to bring all that to you, rather than some computer-generated literal thing. So yeah, I’d say let your mind’s eye dream it up.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect, thank you. Okay, cool. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Tara Mohr
Oh, sure. Well, one of my favorite quotes comes from Marianne Williamson, and it is, “Ask to be a representative of love.” So, in any situation that you’re feeling stressed about… And I have used this in professional situations, including before I was an entrepreneur – very traditional professional situations – with amazing success and results, like going into a tense meeting where there was a lot of conflict and my prayer and inner intention was, I want to be a representative of love in the room. And what that allowed me to do was get out of myself and my fear and my ego, and contribute so much more value and be such a more helpful, mature voice in the room. So that’s always for me like a mantra, a favorite quote, a favorite practice.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. And how about a favorite book?

Tara Mohr
I have so many, but I just finished one that I think is outstanding and that your listeners will probably really enjoy. It’s called Einstein and the Rabbi. It’s by Rabbi Naomi Levy and it’s really a personal growth type book that is just very compelling and helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. And how about a favorite habit, a personal practice of yours that helps you be awesome at your job?

Tara Mohr
One of my favorite habits is surrender, by which I mean remembering that I’m not supposed to figure it out all on my own. So when I’m feeling overwhelmed or unclear, I can very consciously say, “I don’t know. I don’t know what to do in this situation.” I physically open up my hands to the world, the greater space and say “Help!” And then I kind of go through my day with a sensitive listening for the insights and answers. And I find that that surrender and asking for help really changes everything.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent, thank you. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Tara Mohr
I’m at TaraMohr.com. And the Playing Big book is available on Amazon and everywhere that books are sold.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Tara Mohr
I do. I would invite everyone to circle back to that idea we started our conversation with, and ask yourself are you being more loyal to your fears or your dreams? And what’s one thing you can do today to be more loyal to your dreams?

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, Tara, thank you so much for sharing this. I wish you lots and lots of luck in your coaching and your book and all the cool things you’re up to!

Tara Mohr
Thank you! Likewise.

Feb 26
0

266: Developing Your Free Time Formula with Jeff Sanders

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Jeff Sanders says: "It's about defining who you want to be so that the things that matter get your true attention."

Fellow podcaster Jeff Sanders discusses what really makes up your time, how to avoid burning out while remaining productive, and how to prioritize tasks without sacrificing your goals.

You’ll Learn:

  1. What a trip to the ER taught Jeff about the need for taking legit breaks
  2. How to unplug optimally
  3. Steps to define your top priorities

About Jeff

Jeff Sanders is a keynote speaker, author of The Free-Time Formula, The 5 AM Miracle, and founder of The Rockin’ Productivity Academy. Jeff is also the host of The 5 AM Miracle Podcast, which has ranked #1 in iTunes in the Self-Help and Business categories, been nominated for 5 Podcast Awards, and exceeded 5 million downloads. He is a plant-based marathon runner and personal development junkie. Every week you can find Jeff writing and speaking at JeffSanders.com.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Jeff Sanders Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Jeff, welcome back to the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Jeff Sanders
Well, hey, Pete. Good to be back here again.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, boy. Well, it’s been, geez, about a year here, which is wild. But back in episode 79, tell me what’s new in your life since then?

Jeff Sanders
Ooh, big question. I think the newest thing is I’ve got a new book coming out in the next couple of months that I’m excited about. And something I actually literally just announced this morning on Facebook is that my wife and I are pregnant with our first child.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, congratulations.

Jeff Sanders
Yeah, a lot of big changes come up this year. I’m so excited.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, totally. Yes. We just had our first, and so exciting. So, yeah, I’m curious how that will adjust your 5:00 a.m. wakeup schemes. That’s cool. I’ve also noticed that you say you are a secret woodworker in your free time. What’s that secret exactly?

Jeff Sanders
Well, I think it’s a secret mostly because I just kind of started doing some like side woodworking for fun. My brother is actually kind of a professional woodworker himself. He does a lot of hand carving and painting of kayak paddles, and he sells those for lots of money, and he’s really good at it. And I have no skills in that area. I just think it’s fun to kind of do some creative projects.

I started actually because I spend so much time on the computer. I wanted a project that was just totally off, you know, non-digital, just so I can get myself in my garage and build something. So that’s kind of what I do for fun in my free time.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s excellent. Cool. Wow. You know, kayak paddles, there’s a market for so many things that I never would’ve imagined.

Jeff Sanders
Very true, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. Well, hopefully, that’s a huge market – how is this for a segue – for your upcoming book The Free-Time Formula which is a cool name. Tell us, what’s the main kind of idea behind it?

Jeff Sanders
Well, the main idea is that most of us, myself included, tend to be incredibly busy. I was having a discussion with one of my friends a few weeks ago, you know, asking like, I hadn’t seen him in a while, I was like, “Hey, how are you doing?” And he gave me that same spiel, “Really busy.”

And I think like a few years ago, I would ask him like how they’re doing, he’d say, “Oh, I’m doing fine,” or, “I’m doing great.” But that has changed now to, “Oh, I’m busy.” And that’s like a marker of how we’re doing and it’s supposed to mean like some sort of a weird way of saying, “I’m so important because I’m busy all the time.”

But, really, I think it speaks to the idea that we’re all really busy because we’re overbooked, we’re stressed out. And the book really came out of that kind of moniker, like we are doing way too much stuff, most of which is not a good use of our time. And so this was kind of like my story of last spring, you know, I went to this big season where I was doing a lot of stuff, and found myself very stressed out, very overwhelmed, and realized, “I could not continue at that pace,” and it wasn’t healthy, it wasn’t sustainable.

And so the book speaks to people like me who are type A, high-achieving, ambitious people, you want to get a lot done. But you’re stressed out, you’re overwhelmed, there’s too much happening. How do you balance that and still be able to get your goals accomplished? But also kind of how the margin, the free time you want in your life so you can live a quality life, and actually have some time to yourself, have some time that’s your own.

And I feel like that is a big challenge for most people because we always feel the sense of just, “Go, go, go,” all the time, and there’s never really a clean break from the busyness. And so my book really kind of tackles that head on and figures out ways to make that possible.

Pete Mockaitis
Intriguing, yes. You know, I’ve often wondered, yeah, I remember I’ve always loved free time. As a kid, I remember I was in a play and I quit the play. I felt very, don’t know, like, “Oh, you’re being a quitter. That’s very bad. Letting people down.” Whatever. I had a very tiny role but I had lots of play practice. And I remember I want to leave because, I don’t know if I’m in like 4th grade or so, because I didn’t have any “free time.”

And then, at the same time, later on, I reflected, “Is any time really free? Something fills it.” So how is it that you define free time?

Jeff Sanders
Well, in the book I kind of get a little bit, I’m not controversial, but like I really hit the idea of free time right in the head and really speaks to the idea that all time is free time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Jeff Sanders
Like every single minute of every single day is up to you. Now that’s a difficult thing to say because, right away, your head is going, “Wait a minute, but I’ve got a job, I’ve got a mortgage, I’ve got kids, I’ve got…” whatever. But the reality is that every single day you can choose something different, but every choice comes with kind of a consequence or a possible benefit, so you have to weigh all those options all the time.

And so the way I look at it is that, kind of more in theory, that your free time is your time. All time is free time, and all time is your free time. So what do you do with the time you have? And can you make better decisions to ensure that the time you have is being better spent. So I feel like most of us, when we approach our days with the sense of a lack of control, that your time is being stolen from you, that your boss makes you go to work, that you can’t do things.

The opposite can be so much more beneficial which is, you know, “I chose this job. I’m choosing to go to work, I get benefits from it. If it’s not the best choice for me, let me find a better option to use that time more efficiently or more wisely for the goals I’ve set for myself.” And I think that that mindset switch to view all your time as your own gives you the power back and allows you then to make choices that are more aligned to the person you want to be.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I like that. And so in terms of just like the feeling, “Oh, I have to go to work,” as if there’s like there’s a drudgery, there’s resignation, maybe resentfulness, a tiredness, you know, just packed all into that sentence, “I have to go to work now.” As opposed to, “I’m choosing to go to work now, recognizing that there’s things I don’t care to do. This isn’t the funnest thing maybe in this particular day. I’m not in the mood. However, in the grand complex ecosystem of commitments that I have, it is a prudent choice for me to go ahead and do this.” So a different feel, for sure, in just terms of how you’re looking at things and, thus, how you feel about it in a moment.

Jeff Sanders
Yeah, exactly. I think that when you approach that with a different like frame of mind it changes your entire perspective on your day. I’ve heard stories just a million times where someone goes into the office who hates their job, and someone else has the exact same job goes in with a positive mindset, and the end results are totally different.

And it’s not just about like trying to make a bad job feel better by being positive, but it’s really, “To approach my day with the understanding that I am making a choice to do what I’m doing.” And when the ball is in your court and the power is in your hands, then you can make a different decision. I feel like that sense of power and control really gives you the opportunity to then make better choices which I think like most people tend to feel like they’re missing.

And if you have that control then you can make those choices that are different and, therefore, your life can change from there.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I dig it. Well, so I kind of want to hear your story when it comes to free time. I have a feeling that there could be some interrelationship between you had an occasion in life where you had to go to the emergency room, and it was due to stress. Kind of what’s the backstory here? And how does free time fit into that?

Jeff Sanders
Well, this kind of ties into what I was talking about with last spring, I mean, a really busy season. I was working through a ton of projects, all of which I opted into. And so my schedule was like packed to the brim. I was excited though. I had a lot of cool things going on that I wanted to do. But because I had basically booked myself to the brim, I had no margin for anything else that would pop up.

And now I had a few challenges that popped up, some financial issues, some weird, like things in my house were breaking, like, you know, just life was happening, right? And so in that season, I basically spassed out. I was like, “Wait a minute. I don’t have time to deal with all of these stuff that’s happening on top of what I’ve already said yes to.”

And so I got myself really stressed out, really overworked, and then the book deal for this book showed up in the middle of all of that which was an opportunity to learn to say yes to, and I did, but in the moment, all I do is add more stress to my life as well. So then when my publisher said, “Well, what’s your topic going to be about?” I was like, “I don’t know. I’m too busy. Let’s talk in a few weeks.”

Well, in that few week period I had basically a complete stressed out freaked out moment panic attack, you can call if you want to, and I ended up in the ER because I was choking on some food, and I was having this weird attack symptoms. It was really bizarre, and the doctor of the hospital was like, “Well, you’re not having an actual heart attack. You’re not actually sick. You’re just burned out like to the max.”

And so I had to figure out a way to kind of wind down from that, and then reframe how I was approaching my work. And so I’m back to my publisher a few weeks later, and I was like, “I’ve got the exact topic for this book. I’m going to talk about like this story of what happened to me, and then how I was able to kind of come out of that,” which is I’ve been able to do that since then. It’s been this bizarre journey of me going from super type A over-caffeinated doing too much work all the time, to what’s the balance between that and having the time that I need for myself.

And there are solutions there. There is a story that unfolds there, but it’s really the intentionality behind it of saying like, “I cause all that and now I have to unwind all that.” And it really has been kind of a bizarre journey.

Pete Mockaitis
Now that’s really intriguing. When you used the phrase “burnt out,” I think we often think about like motivation is out, and you’re kind of blah. But it sounded like your motivation was still good and strong in terms of you like doing all those things. You thought all those things were cool and you went after them with great huzzah and enthusiasm, and ultimately your body just tells you another story about what is possible in terms of your time and your resources there.

So is that fair to say that the doctor said you were burnt out even though your motivation levels are really strong?

Jeff Sanders
Yeah, it was kind of bizarre for me, I think, because at the time, when my doctor told me, “You have to slow things down,” even though I was in the ER at the time, I was like, “No, no, no, but I have things to do, things that I want to get done.” You know, I’m still fighting him even in the hospital. So it was very much like I was so steeped in it that I couldn’t even realize like how I badly I needed to slow down until a few weeks went by, I kind of reflected on it, and realized, “Yeah, I opted into these things, I’m excited about these things. But you only have 24 hours in a day, and you, as an individual, can only do so much so you have to make really important cuts. Like certain things just will not happen.”

And that’s been my biggest lesson from all of this, is figuring out how to say no because I just want to keep saying yes which lends me to those kinds of problems. And so figuring out what matters most and saying yes to those few things, and then no to everything else, that’s the big battle and that’s where that really defines whether or not you can get that balance you’re looking for or you find yourself overwhelmed.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And I also wanted to hear a little bit about sort of maybe your sense of identity or beliefs or mindset or toughness, because in a way I’m thinking, “Okay. Hey, you know what, I’m Jeff Sanders, I’m the 5AM Miracle Dude. I am Mister Productivity.” And I think a lot of us fancy ourselves, in some kind of a way, like maybe similar to that, like, “I’m the guy who always blah, blah, blah,” or, “You can always depend on me for this or that,” or, “I would never be such a person as to just take a nap in the middle of a work day.”

I don’t know. I think we have sort of these, I don’t know, call them vows or sort of self-image things that show up. I’d love to hear a little bit, in your story, in your perspective, was that a factor in play?

Jeff Sanders
No doubt it was. I mean, for sure, like I don’t take naps as a good example of that and I think in part because I feel guilty for taking time off. You know, I have this sense that I need to keep pushing all the time. Even just recently, it was during the holiday break, and I was hanging out with my family, I travel for the holidays and we were just kind of hanging out, opening presents, eating cookies, just kind of things you do on the holidays.

And I kept thinking like, “I have my laptop with me. I could knock out a little work here and there.” But why am I thinking about that? Why is that always in my head? Because I’ve defined myself as that guy who’s always trying to be productive, and I think it’s been, it still is a challenge for me to like unwind that mindset around myself because the best way to be productive, that I’ve seen over time, even to myself, is you’d have those seasons or defined times where you’re doing work. But then when you’re off the clock, you need to actually be off the clock and take a legit break.

And when that happens, you then have the rest you need to come back to the work more refreshed and ready to go. And that’s where the breakthroughs really happen. And so to get to that point where that rhythm can exists, you have to be able to say, “Well, now is work time, but then when that’s done it’s actually done.” And I have a hard time turning that off. But once I do, well, then I see the benefits. I get that refreshing mindset, I’m able to come back better again.

So, yes, I mean, I definitely have defined myself as The 5AM Guy, and like I’m trying to be productive all the time, but it’s working against me in those cases where I’m trying to do too much. And so finding that balance really can not only be good for my kind of mental standard in the moment but also for the image or portraying like real productivity is defining a few things that matter, and giving all your attention to that, and then being able to confidently say no to the things that just aren’t as important which is a hard line to cross if you don’t know where it is. So it’s a journey to make those choices.

But once you know what those things are, and you define what matters to you, it’s amazing to me just how clear it’s becoming to me the things I’ve said yes to that are silly, or the things that I could easily walk away from but I just haven’t out of pride or out of, you know, just old habit, or whatever the case is. And so it’s about defining who you want to be so that the things that matter get your true attention.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. That is good. So, I have so many things to follow up on here. I guess, first, I want to talk about the notion of resting and being off, legit break completely. Do you have some thoughts in terms of what is a great ratio between work and rest? And how can you unplug and make your breaks all the more legitimate?

Jeff Sanders
I don’t have a ratio per se, but I know, I kind of know when I’m going through it. As a good example of this, when I was working on this book actually, I had a season of probably two to three months where, you know, working on the book every day was my number one priority. So, go to the library here in Nashville, and I would write like four to five hours.

And that four- to five-hour chunk was basically all of the creative energy I had in that day, and at the end of that time like my brain was like shutting down, I was tired, it was time to move on. I could just feel it like emotionally. And I could tell over time like that rhythm of saying, “I’m going to go and do the work until that time is done, and I’m mentally kind of done for the day,” then I can shift gears and find something else to work on that doesn’t require any brain cells. I can go do the laundry or shop or something.

And I feel like the rhythm between those activities of where you’re mentally tuned into something, and then when you’re just kind of mentally tuning out, it’s not necessarily a ratio like a per hour, but maybe you could though. Like I know if four to five hours of work time is basically what my brain can do, and then after that I have to change.

And so when you find that rhythm, you can then schedule in the things that matter most during those kind of optimum hours for yourself, and then schedule the lesser important things in the late afternoons when you’re getting a little bit tired or sluggish. That kind of a rhythm can set you up to be able to do what matters every day without getting burned out in a given day.

Pete Mockaitis
And so I’m thinking, then, so that four or five hours, is there anything to, well, hey, it’s intermittent breaks, it could be six, seven, eight hours, or you’re thinking, “Nope, four to five hours is the capacity and it’s just a matter if you put them all contiguously upfront, or if you disperse it throughout the day”?

Jeff Sanders
I mean, I definitely found that doing them all at once earlier in the day was most effective for me. I do tend to have kind of a later in the day kind of extra energy boost, and sometimes in the evening I’ll get some other work done. But I know my primary kind of creative energy happens probably between, let’s say, like 9:00 a.m. and 1:00 p.m. Like that tends to be when I’m on fire.

It varies day to day but like in a general sense, if that was how my life was going to flow, that’s when my brain is on, four solid focused hours with very minimal breaks. In that time period, I’m going to get really high-quality work done. And if I try to break into smaller pieces, I have seen over time that I’ll still get work done but it’ll be less over time. Like I won’t get quite as deep into the material, or I won’t get quite as much accomplished, and I’ll feel more scattered.

Now, I definitely feel a sense of accomplishment when I’m able to do one thing for a solid amount of time. And when I try to book, like five or six little projects in a day, well, that just feels scattered, I feel too busy, and that doesn’t serve me to then want to repeat that. It just kind of burns me out because I just feel like there’s too much happening.

And so part of my kind of rhythm I’m going for is having fewer big things to do per day as opposed to a significant longer to-do list of lots of little things because, for me, personally, that burns me out. That’s too much for me to want to be able to approach my day confidently. I’d rather have just one or two big things.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, that’s a good way to put it, to face the day confidently and so you’re fired up going into it as opposed to, “Oh, boy, this is hopeless. There’s no way this is going to happen. Ugh.”

Jeff Sanders
Yeah, exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Okay. Well, so then, that’s the part about the ratio side of things. And now I want to hear about the unplugging well side of things. Is there any kind of pro tips or tactics or principles, perspectives when it comes to doing a quality unplug and refresh?

Jeff Sanders
Well, I think, for me, what I have seen in the last probably eight or nine years is that the best way for me to unplug is to do the exact opposite of what I usually do when I’m working.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. I love that. You said that in 79, that episode, and I followed it. I was like, “Okay, I’m tuckered. What’s the opposite? You know what, it’s folding this laundry. It’s just the opposite. That is what’s happening now.”

Jeff Sanders
Well, I think it works beautifully whether, let’s say, like a small 15-minute break, I can fold some laundry, or a longer, like three-hour break, on a Saturday morning, I might go for a run in the park. And I feel like whatever it is that’s not what I usually do is when that’s when I feel the most rested, it’s when I feel like I can actually reflect on my work, or I can just not think of work at all, or whatever it is I’m trying to get done. I feel like when I walk away completely and do something that’s completely different and new, that’s when I like I can turn my brain on again, I can turn my energy on again. And then when I do get back to work, you know, let’s say on next Monday morning, I have that sense of rejuvenation and rest that I, otherwise, would definitely not have.

Let’s say, for example, if I spent the whole week on the computer, and then the whole weekend looking at Facebook and social media. Well, I’m still tuned in, there’s still too much happening that same kind of work. And so I’d rather just unplug it away. That really is radically different because that’s what allows me to feel like there’s a sense of rhythm, like you’re on the computer and then you’re totally off. And when I have that back and forth, that allows me to be so much more present in the times that I choose to be on.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Got it. That’s so good. Well, now, in your book you recommend doing a time audit. What exactly is that? How is it done? And what are some things that folks are likely to discover when they do one?

Jeff Sanders
Well, I first heard of this from a guy named Darren Hardy who was the publisher of Success Magazine, and I followed Darren’s work for a long time. He’s an author of multiple books, and he’s a really amazing guy. And this is a lesson he taught probably like 20 years ago now but it’s one that I have applied kind of to my own life in this perspective of looking at how your time is being spent.

And so what he did was timed himself doing what he thought was his most important work every day. So he actually wore a stopwatch around his neck and would time himself whenever he was doing what he said was his most important work for the day. And at the end of the day, kind of looked at the stopwatch just to see how much time he had clocked in that day.

And the answer was 19 minutes. So he literally had only spent 19 minutes of the entire working day doing the activity he said was the most important which was, for him, was this big aha moment, like, “I need to increase that number.” And so the time audit is literally that exact same thing. From the first perspective, you’re looking at just, “What do I do every day?” And the second perspective is, “If I know the most important thing, how much time I’m spending on that?”

And so the only real goal behind this is just to get that number. Like, how much time do you spend on what you claim is your most important thing? And if the number is way too low, which it might be, then you figure out a way to increase that number. And when that happens, then your results go up dramatically because you’re taking that most important activity and giving it so much more attention.

And I have seen that with myself where I get so caught up in things that are not the most important, and I keep delaying that thing, or finding an excuse not to do it. And so I feel like that, the mentality behind that, the intentionality behind saying, “I’m going to get an actual number to look at and calculate and measure and then improve over time,” gives you the ability to then actually monitor your progress and see how much better you’re getting at staying focused on what you said matters most.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very cool. Well, so now, let’s really dig into a little bit of when it comes to this defining, this prioritization, this saying no, I’d love it if you have some particular perspectives, or rules of thumb, or questions that you should ask yourself in terms of, you know, what is something that is truly worthy of being a top priority versus what is something that should clearly get a quick no, and just sort of not even into our to-do list in the first place?

Jeff Sanders
Well, it’s a great discussion, and I feel like the idea of filtering what you do every day is maybe the most important skillset that’s necessary to actually make progress. And I say that because, you know, our ability to kind of make the decision like yes to this and no to that defines what how our day is spent, defines where our energy goes.

And so like I have a question that I’ve written down on a big post-it note on my vision board in my office, which I’m looking at right now, that says, “Is it a nine or a ten? No? Well, then walk away.” And so the idea being that everything I need to say yes to needs to be a nine or a ten. That’s a very subjective scale of one to ten. But in my head I need to be able to say, like, “This thing I’m saying yes to had better be that good. And if it’s not then I should probably find something better to do with my time.”

And so it’s filters like that, or questions like that to ask yourself, “Is this fulfilling a grander goal I’m trying to pursue? Is this next me that I’m going to go to serving a bigger objective? Or is it just another activity that I’ve been saying yes to over time? Or is it just that sounded like fun but it’s only kind of good but it’s not necessarily great or amazing. I want to fill my life with the great and amazing things, the nines and tens in the scale. And to do that, I have to say no a ton.”

And that’s what’s been my biggest lesson probably the last year and a half or so, is how much now I say no. And it’s just constant because there’s so many requests for my time, so many things I could say yes to. My own ideas that I get that I have to turn down to myself because I want to do so many things. It’s like that’s raising the bar in that sense of saying like, “Everything I want to say yes to needs to meet a certain minimum threshold. And if it doesn’t then I probably need to find a way to get out of it.”

And that alone has taken my calendar to a whole new level where it’s actually a whole lot less scheduled. There’s a lot more margin now in it because I’m only saying yes to a few things. And it takes a while to get there. Like this is a process you have to go through probably over the course of many weeks or months because there’s usually so many things over time we’ve said yes to.

So raising the bar can take a while to filter out all the things that’ll meet that criteria, but asking the question, just really analyzing what you’ve said yes to, I have found, over time, has definitely caused me to say no ten times more than the past, which is liberating for me because then I have the free time, then I have the control again that I can say yes to things that are more fun or more influential or more powerful for me. But that journey is a process, but the end-result is amazing because you get to do those things that are so great.

Pete Mockaitis
So now I love that. Does it serve a grander goal? So that’s cool, so I guess you’ve already defined a sort of a small set of goals upfront in advanced. Is this true?

Jeff Sanders
Yes, definitely. I have. I usually do a quarterly goals, and so I have kind of defined like two or three major things I’m working towards. And so really that question then is, “Is this next smaller task or project are going to serve one of those?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Excellent. And so, then, when you say a nine or a ten, do you have a definition for what would be a nine versus what would be a ten? What are those numbers mean to you in qualitative terms?

Jeff Sanders
I think in terms of me, I think back to kind of when I was in school and I was always trying to get an A in a class or on a test. And so, for me, like a 90% of higher qualified, at least, when I went to college, a 90% was an A. And so as long as I can get to that 90, I got the grade I wanted, and I feel like that’s kind of what I’m going for here. It’s like, “Let’s make sure that whatever I’m getting to qualifies as like a super awesome thing.”

There’s some wiggle room there to not be perfect, but it needs to be something that really kind of blows my socks off, and was like, “This is going to be a great thing for me to do that I’m excited about or really helpful for me.” And if I’m not like super pumped about it, or it can be opposite there. If I’m currently involved in something, but I would not go back and sign up for again, then I need to find a way out of it, because it’s not still acting as that nine or ten on my scale.

So it’s a very subjective term, and to define it, it really has to be kind of your own thing, but I know it once I ask the question. When I have something I’m considering, I look at that, I know almost immediately if it’s a yes or a no. And that, for me, is the super powerful part about this that you can just ask the question for whatever it is you’re considering, and you’ll almost always have that gut sense of, “Yeah, this is probably not good enough yet.”

And so then you kind of go back to the drawing board and start over again. But I think that just having that reminder to ask the question, that’s what leads to you understanding what a nine or ten would mean for you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you maybe give us an example of…? All right, you got a goal, and you got a couple of action steps you could take, could you maybe make it real for us by saying, “Hey, here’s something that might fall into the five, six. Okay, not bad territory,” versus the kind of actions and activities that are in clearly the nine- to ten-category for that given goal?

Jeff Sanders
Sure. I’ve actually got a list here of my future projects I’m looking at. I use Evernote to organize my whole life, and so I have a current list of the goals I’m working on, and then a second list of what I just call a future projects and ideas.

And so the future projects and ideas list are things I’m currently looking at and saying, “Will these things at one point become a current project?” And I have them prioritized, ones right now is from one to seven of current things I’m considering. And number two in the list is to grow my own email list. So because as an online entrepreneur, I like to attract people to my website, and then can sign up to my email list, and then I can use that to over time kind of get them to buy products. That’s a very common kind of internet business strategy.

But in my line of work now, that’s less important. I have other things I’m working towards, other ways of making money, other ways of growing my business. So actually specifically growing my email list, for me, is not a nine or a ten. It’s still important, and over time I’ll still work on it, but I’m not going to stop what I’m doing today to go do that project. Like it’s not going to capture my attention, it’s not going to make me, you know, freak out overnight.

I’m going to postpone that until it becomes the next most important thing to push me forward. And that’s kind of the filter I look through is, “Is this next thing going to take or replace what I’m currently working on?” And, generally, I have two to three kinds of current projects, and that’s this. And so if another project is going to come in the mix, it needs to replace one of those, or trump those in some way, and if it’s not powerful enough then the answer is an automatic no.

And so in this case, I’m looking at this kind of, you know, growing the email list project, and telling me, “Well, it’s still important. I’ll hang onto it for now, but it’s not yet a nine or ten for me. And once it is then I’ll know it and I’ll pursue it and it’ll be great. But until then, it just kind of hangs on in that list of like maybe in the future I’ll get to it later.” And that’s where I am today with that project.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. Well, now, with all the no that you’re saying, do you have any favorite ways that you’ve adopted to articulate that to others?

Jeff Sanders
Over time I’ve gotten better at this. I am very bad at saying no, and I say that because in the past the way I’ve said no is I’ve been too blunt, or way too passive. And so either might insult a buddy by being too aggressive with my no, or I do the opposite and I kind of like try to weasel my way around it and not really give a clear answer which then causes that person to be a little confused.

And so I’ve tried to find ways to have what Michael Hyatt calls a graceful no, or basically you’re acknowledging someone, and say like, “I appreciate you reaching out to me,” or, “I appreciate the opportunity. At this time, I’ve got other priorities that I’m pursuing so I’ll have to pass in the moment.” So I’ll use phrases like that to be – and still clearly I’m saying no, but I’m not saying no in a way that’s harsh or where that’s, you know, I still acknowledge the request and acknowledge the person for their offer.

And that tends to happen every day, and I’ve got email templates setup to be able to kind of start with that and customize it a little bit so that I’ve got a starting place to build from, because most of my no’s I get over email so it’s just a very typical kind of like copy-paste and customize and then send, and that saves me a lot of time, and it frees up my ability to move forward to the next thing that matters most without being too hung up on how to say no to somebody.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, tell me, Jeff, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Jeff Sanders
I think that, overall, the idea of productivity and the idea of the book that I’ve been working on, have been for last year or so, really speaks to this idea that we let ourselves get busy and we let ourselves fall into these bad habits, and it takes some real intentionality to get out of it. It’s one thing I see in myself. It’s just so easy to get caught up in the busyness and it takes some real effort to get out of it, but it’s effort that’s really, really worth it because the results you get when you unwind that is just so immediate.

You find that free time, you can see it on your calendar, you can fill it with things that are fun, and I think that though it might be a little bit of work upfront to kind of undo the mess, it is totally worth it and a lot of fun.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Awesome. Well, let’s see, it’d be fun to see if some of your favorite things have evolved in the last year, so let’s do it. Can you share with us a favorite quote?

Jeff Sanders
A favorite quote is one I probably had probably since the last time we talk, it’s from Albert Einstein, which is, “In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.” I love that quote because it really speaks to this idea that whatever challenge I’m facing, there is an opportunity to be seized in that. And so I’m asking myself, “What is the opportunity in the middle of this thing that I’m fighting against, so this thing that I’m frustrated with? How can I grow from this? How can I move forward?”

And almost every single time, when I look at that quote, and I ask that question, you know, “Where is the opportunity here?” I find it. Like it’s always there. And so that’s my focus, is just always figuring out, “What is that next opportunity there?”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I love that. And sometimes I’m also thinking about, well, when it comes to the quote, “Necessity is the mother of invention,” it’s like a lot of times that opportunity is through sort of a brilliant breakthrough, you know, in terms of, “I could do something in a completely better way,” or, “I could find a new product, service, tool, solution that I didn’t even know existed before, but now that I need it I find it and then it’s like, well, it’s part of my life forever. It’s super helpful.”

So that works on many levels. I dig it.

Jeff Sanders
Totally. Love that.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite book?

Jeff Sanders
Favorite book. Right now, I’m actually re-reading one of my favorite books, it’s called Ultramarathon Man by Dean Karnazes. It is a book that specifically is about running ultramarathons which is super, super long marathons but, really, the book is just a bunch of stories about how crazy Dean Karnazes actually is in his abilities to push himself to incredibly challenging just feats of human potential. And I think it’s amazing to listen to and watch and participate in like what he is doing.

I’m actually interviewed him on my podcast a few years ago, and he is just such an inspirational guy because he is always asking the question, like, “How can I push further? Like what can I do next to kind of blow away my own potential?” And I think that those kind of life lessons you can apply to anything.

Yes, I love to run marathons myself, too, and it’s definitely a running book, but I use those same lessons in everything else that I pursue. It’s like, “How can I push this next project further? How can I expand my own limited thinking and think bigger and do something that’s more bold?” And I always find that there’s something else I could pursue that’s bolder and bigger and more fun. So I love the lessons in that book.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Okay. Cool. And how about a favorite tool, something that helps you be awesome at your job?

Jeff Sanders
Recently, actually I switched back from – I was using a task manager called Nozbe. It’s my primary way to schedule my whole life. And I just went back to kind of an old-school calendar to look at my entire life. And for some reason that’s been like eye-opening for me. It’s just to see my life schedule in a new way. And this I do every couple of years. I will intentionally change tools with the way that I schedule my time just to see if I can find a new way to view it.

And so that always leads to some kind of epiphany. I always realize, like, “Oh, there is this thing I was missing,” or, “There’s an opportunity to fill in time here.” And when I do that, like it always opens my eyes to, you know, there are other ways to see the same thing. And if I can see myself in different perspectives, I can change how I am to be better and to improve over time.

And so I intentionally will change up the tools I’m using just to be able to see the same projects or same calendar up from a new perspective to improve myself. And I think it works really well.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a particular nugget that you’ve been sharing in your book that really seems to connect and resonate at least with those who got to take a sneak peek in advance, that they share back to you in their digging?

Jeff Sanders
I think that one thing I have heard of more, what I said before actually, is that idea that free time is your own time. I was talking to a guy just recently who had that same kind of thought when he was looking at his calendar. This is a guy who’s kind of similar to me. He had overbooked, he’s a musician here in Nashville, and he has said yes to so many different projects, and he started to unwind all those to change up the way he was operating based on this concept that your time is your own.

And he kind of had the same realization that like, “Wait a minute. I’ve said yes way too many times to these things. And if I have this new perspective of my time, like I can own it better.” And I think the ownership perspective of your time is such a powerful thing, and it’s the one thing that I keep going back to myself because I’m in that same boat where I kind of I let myself have that same old have to do blank.

But I think it’s really powerful that we don’t have to do whatever it is. We can choose something different, and then we do, we get better results.

Pete Mockaitis
And, Jeff, if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jeff Sanders
JeffSanders.com is the best place to go. I think that’s where I’ve got my books, podcasts, other things I’m working on there. So, yeah, that’s the place to be.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jeff Sanders
Be intentional of your time off. I think it’s really important to be able to take a big step back from the busyness of your day and your week. I do a process, it’s a weekly review, where every single week I kind of analyze how the week went. But I think beyond that, more importantly, having intentional time off to do, like I said before, like the exact opposite of your job, like have time away so that when you do come back you’re more refreshed. I think it’s a very powerful thing that a lot of us tend to ignore because we get too busy. So be intentional about it and make sure you have at least some time set aside once a week to take a big step back.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Well, Jeff, thank you. This has been so much fun. I wish you tons of luck with the new book, and your many projects, but also chilling out and baby coming up and so much.

Jeff Sanders
Yeah, thank you, Pete. I had fun today.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. Thank you.

Feb 23
0

265: Getting the Most Out of Each Day with Peter Shankman

By | Podcasts | One Comment

 

 

Peter Shankman says: "The majority of things I do aren't normal... but they work for me."

Peter Shankman walks through his unique take on productivity and lessons learned from ADHD that anyone can apply.

You’ll Learn:

  1. 4 simple rules to be more productive
  2. Tricks to eliminate distraction
  3. Why you should always ask for a deadline

About Peter

Peter Shankman is a spectacular example of what happens when you merge the power of pure creativity with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and a dose of adventure, and make it work to your advantage. An author, entrepreneur and corporate keynote speaker, this “worldwide connector” is recognized worldwide for radically new ways of thinking about customer service, social media, PR, marketing, advertising, and ADHD. He founded Help A Reporter Out, ShankMinds: Breakthrough, Geek Factory, and more.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Peter Shankman Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Peter, thanks so much for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Peter Shankman
My pleasure. Good to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you have had a fascinating background which has been fun to learn about as I’m doing my research here. And I want to hear a little bit about some of your history when it comes to publicity stunts and people doing publicity stunts. Can you share maybe one of the most strikingly interesting, outrageously wild publicity stunts that come to mind from your experience there?

Peter Shankman
Well, first of all, I want to say it’s really funny to be on a podcast about being awesome at your job because I’ve had a total of one job in my entire life and it lasted two years, and when I went to go to my next job I realized that I just don’t play well with others. And so, I’ve been working as an entrepreneur for about almost 20 years now, and it is never once felt like a job. So, I think the number one key of being awesome at your job is do something that you don’t actually feel like you’re working at. It’s pretty awesome. But I love your podcast and I’m happy to chat.

PR stunts, what can I tell you? I can tell you that a PR stunt for the sake of a PR stunt is pointless. All the best PR stunts in the world they do several things. They drive product, they drive sales, they increase brand exposure, they increase revenue. You’re never going to find a CEO who’s a big fan of people who say, “You know what, we should do this stunt.” “Why?” “It’d be great. It’ll go viral.”

Pete Mockaitis
Go viral.

Peter Shankman
Like, “Shut up.” So, if you look at something like the – I’m totally spacing on it now – the guy with the abs, Old Spice. Old Spice, several years ago, they did these things on Twitter where people would tweet the Old Spice guy, and he’d respond by a video. It cost them about three bucks a piece to do, generated ridiculous amounts of brand exposure and sales, right?

I’ve had clients, we’ve done events where we’ve created massive, massive publicity, and massive, massive exposure that has led to sales. Some of the best ones I remember, God, back when domain names costs like 79 bucks a piece. We did one where we offered domains, it was a domain service, a domain name company, a TLD, and we offered free domains for one night to protest the fact that they cost 79 bucks when they shouldn’t, and we broke the internet.

It was back in 2000 where there’s still a lot of people on dial-up and we crashed the northeast seaboard. It was pretty impressive. But, you know, again, great exposure. After the promotion they sold like, I think, 40 times the amount of domain names in two hours they would normally sell in three weeks. So, if you’re going to do a stunt, at the end of the day if you’re going to present it to your boss with that, they will look at you and think you’re awesome if you come up with this great idea, but then also tie it into revenue, tie it into why it’s important.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, I’d like to hear. Any that just failed, bombed, where it’s just silly disasters?

Peter Shankman
Oh, I had tons. You look around, I’ve screwed up once. I mean, there were tons. Let me think about some great ones that have bombed. Any stunts that rely on going viral, right? You can’t make anything viral. What you could do is make something good. So, I would suggest that people need to focus on making things good, because if you make something viral that’s not going be that great.

The only thing that makes viral as far as I could tell is H1N1 or some source of disease. You want to make something good, you want to create something that people say, “Wow, this is pretty cool to look at. I’m a huge fan of this and I like this. I trust them.” No one believes how great you are anymore if you’re the one that has to tell them. Your goal is to create something that people understand and like and want and want to use without them saying, “Oh, yeah, I feel like they’re marketing to me or selling to me.”

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Cool. All right. Well, thank you. So, I want to spend most of our time chatting about some of the ideas and applications that you’ve collected much of within your book Faster Than Normal. Can you share with us what is sort of the main premise of the book and why is this important here and now?

Peter Shankman
Faster Than Normal is the basic premise that a lot of us are undiagnosed ADHD. Some of us have sort of been diagnosed. I’ve had it for 10 years, but for 30 years I always thought I was just different and strange, right? At the end of the day, what you find is that ADHD, since it has come out as a disorder, has always been considered a negative.

And when I realized that I had, and realized there was a name for it, and realized what it was, I’m like, “Holy crap, this thing has actually done tremendously well for me. This disorder is actually responsible for the majority of my success.” And when I realized that I quickly became aware that ADHD can be considered a gift, not a curse if you understand how to use it.

And so, for me, I’ve spent the past countless years documenting how I use my ADHD as a gift, what I do to allow myself to use it to the best of my ability, to benefit my life, to allow me to sort of – for lack of a better word – do more than normal people. And it sounds crazy but it turns out that when you have a faster brain, as long as you know how to use it, you actually can do a lot.

Here’s a pretty good example. If I offered you the choice between a Honda and a Lamborghini you’d probably choose the Lamborghini, right? It’s a faster car. It’s a sick ride. It’s amazing. But you’ve got to know how to drive it. If you’re used to driving a KIA Sportage your entire life, and someone gives you a Lamborghini, if you don’t know how to drive it you’re going to step on the gas, expecting it to respond the same way that your KIA responds, you’re going to smash it into a tree or kill someone or fall off a bridge.

You have to understand how to drive your faster brain. Driving your faster brain is different than driving a regular brain at a normal speed, so there are pluses and minuses to that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, I’m really intrigued to hear your point, so that folks don’t tune out right away, it’s like, “Well, I’m not ADHD so this doesn’t apply to me.”

Peter Shankman
Oh, it applies to everyone.

Pete Mockaitis
So, when you said there are many, many folks who are undiagnosed ADHD, and I had a former girlfriend who kept insisting that I, too, had ADHD. So, what might be some of the telltale signs? And what do we do about it if we find ourselves in that case?

Peter Shankman
Well, I’ll take it a step further for your audience. You don’t have to have ADHD to appreciate the tools and the sort of life hacks that I use on a regular basis.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome.

Peter Shankman
You can be a normal girl or guy who just wants to get three hours a day back in your life productivity-wise.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that sounds nice. Very nice.

Peter Shankman
Yeah, the stuff that I do allows me to get about three hours’ worth of productivity back in my life every day, and they sound crazy until you realize how beneficial they are. First example, I get up usually around 3:45 in the morning.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, 3:45 a.m.

Peter Shankman
3:45 a.m. And the first reaction of anyone who hears that is, “Wow, that’s crazy. What are you? A farmer?” And I get it. It’s not normal, but the majority of things I do aren’t normal but they work for me. I get up so early because it is the only time during the day – when I don’t have to be on my phone, or at my computer, or doing something with work, or focusing on my daughter – I can work out.

So, I get out of my bed and I either go to the gym, go for a run, or more often than not, lately get on my Peloton bike which sits literally six inches to my bed. I sleep in my gym clothes which, again, that’s crazy. But, really, what are your gym clothes? Your gym clothes are a pair of shorts and a T-shirt, right? Probably the same thing you’d sleep in anyway. And my socks. So, the second I wake up I thrown on my sneakers on, I’m dressed.

It’s kind of hard to talk yourself out of going to the gym when you’re already in your gym clothes. I have automatic lights that come on. My lights are all internet of things, my curtains, my shades, my everything. Everything in my apartment is internet of things so the second 3:45 a.m. hits, the light starts coming up slowly, so I’m awake with natural awake lighting, and the chance of going back to sleep drop massively.

Then, once I’m up, I get on my Peloton bike, I do like an hour or two hours of working out. Well, what that does is that gives you a ridiculous hit of dopamine, okay? It wakes you up. It gives you that dopamine which is basically the focus chemical. It’s the focus and happy chemical that says, “Hey, you are awake. Let’s go kick some ass.” It’s like a winner’s high. A winner’s high essentially.

You can get the same thing from speaking on stage. You can get the same thing from skydiving, the same thing from illegal drugs. It’s that dopamine hit that everyone craves. Well, I am now full of it by 6:00 a.m. okay? So, now, I’m out of the gym, I’m out of the whatever. I go to my closet to get dressed, and my closet has exactly two sides to it and they’re labeled.

The first side says, “Office/Travel,” and it’s full of T-shirts and jeans just like I’m wearing today. The second side says, “Speaking/TV,” and it’s full of buttoned down shirts, jackets and jeans. That’s it. My suits, my vests, my sweaters, my night shoes, all that stuff, my ties, those are all in my daughter’s closet in the other room.

Because if I had to go into the closet every morning and say, “You know what, I wonder what I should wear? Hmm, let’s see. Hmm, look at that sweater. Mom gave me that sweater. I wonder how well she’s doing. I should look her up. Let me check.” Three hours later I’m naked in the living room on Facebook and I haven’t left past.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. So, you’re saying that the key there is because of ADHD.

Peter Shankman
Elimination of choice.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, understood. Okay. Cool. And so, then, now a number of these rituals seem like, well, I don’t know if you chose to do them as a means of managing in particular your ADHD because they sound wise just in general. Maybe I want to back up just a little bit though. So, you wake up at 3:45 a.m. And what time do you go to bed?

Peter Shankman
Usually about 8:30, 9:00 o’clock at night.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool.

Peter Shankman
And here’s the thing, for everyone listening saying, “Oh, my God. I’ve missed out on everything. I’ve missed all the good networking.” No, you won’t. I’ve been doing this for years. I have not missed out on a damn thing because all the people who really have the power to make decisions they’re not out drinking, right? You’re having breakfast with them at 7:00 a.m. at the plaza, egg whites and coffee.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Peter Shankman
That’s the real thing. I have never missed out on anything business-wise by going to bed early.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I’m with you. Well, so there we go. So, we talked about the elimination of choice in terms of in the closet a lot of things are elsewhere, and it’s labeled it. It’s so funny. I just labeled my closet recently because, well, there’s all sorts of clutter, I was like, “We just got to get really clear on what goes where in that way the clutter goes away.” It’s like, “Oh, this is the sweater kind of cubbie. All right. Now, I don’t get to think about it anymore. That’s always where the sweaters are.” And so, I dig it. It’s very cool. Now, you sort of gone ahead and sort of defined in particular four undeniable life rules associated with ADHD that are applicable more broadly. And so, what are those?

Peter Shankman
Well, the first one, like I said, is exercise every day. Second one is elimination of choice. The third one is the concept of eating healthy. When you’re ADHD you’re just driven, you tend to have two speeds and only two speeds. My two speeds are namaste and I’m kind of bitch. There is absolutely no middle ground. There’s no middle ground. And so, once you realize that it’s a lot easier to live your life.

So, for instance, you know how certain people who – and I know some of these people – they get home after work, and they’re like, “You know what, I’m tired. I don’t really feel like cooking. I’m going to order in a pizza.” And they order a pizza, and they have two slices, and they box the rest of it in a tin foil and they put it in the fridge, right? That’s called leftover pizza to have at another time, right? Okay, I’ve never had leftover pizza in my life. That is just not a thing.

Pete Mockaitis
You just devour the whole pie?

Peter Shankman
If the pizza is in front of me I’m eating the pizza. I have never once had leftover pizza in my life. There was a comedian, I remember, who said, “I don’t eat until I’m full of eating until I hate myself.” That’s what I do. I basically sit there and I will eat the pizza because, again, two speeds. And so, knowing that, there was a great movie that came out in the ‘80s, it’s called War Games, and it was about a computer with Matthew Broderick.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, right with the news.

Peter Shankman
Right.

Pete Mockaitis
An interesting game, okay.

Peter Shankman
Exactly. And the computer understood. The very last line of the movie was the computer understanding that you can’t win at nuclear war, and he says, “The only winning move is not to play.” And so, I have determined that in my life the only winning move for me is not to play. I allow myself certain times in very constrained conditions to play.

For instance, the last two weeks of December, I knew I wasn’t traveling, I knew I wasn’t working, and I let myself eat, right? But sure enough, I probably ordered pizza every single day. Now, I’m back onto healthy, and because of that I cook all my food in advance. Like every Sunday I make a ton of skinless chicken, I make a ton of lean flank steak, things like that that I just carry with me. I have a ton of spinach salads, yogurts, things of that.

I take yogurt with me out the door, I’m eating as I walk to work. It stops me from going, “Oh, look, there’s a Dunkin Donuts,” or, “Look, there’s a McDonald’s,” or, “Look, there’s…” whatever. It turns that off because I simply know that that is not an option at that time. And I have those, and it sounds rigid but it has to be that way because I work in shared community and some idiot is always bringing in donuts.

For example, I walked in my office today, I haven’t been since early last week because of the holidays. I walked in today, some client delivered me a 10-pound box or one of those 10-pound tins of popcorn, regular cheese and caramel, right? I opened that, I opened the box, I took out the tin, I didn’t even break the seal on the tin.

I simply left my office, walked up to the administration desk up front and went to the two women who worked there, I’m like, “Hey, I got a present for you,” and I left it there. “Wow, you’re so nice.” “No, I’m simply ridding myself from sitting in my office eating 10 pounds of popcorn today.” So, again, eliminate that, know what works for you, know what doesn’t, so I try to eat healthy. My logic is if I’m grandmother wouldn’t have recognized it as food back in 1908, I won’t eat it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Peter Shankman
And then the fourth rule, I think I’ve touched on this earlier, simply getting enough sleep. So, it’s amazing what happens when you don’t get enough sleep. The second you don’t get enough sleep your body – and it’s the same thing with not drinking enough water – your body is unbelievably good at adapting, and so it will basically, if it says, “You know what, you haven’t gotten enough sleep. I’m going to make you do other things. I’m going to make you think that you want to do other things when I’m just trying to get you to sleep.”

Same thing with water, “You haven’t drunk enough water. I’m going to make you feel hungry but you’re not actually hungry. You’re thirsty. But I know there’s water in whatever food you eat and maybe that’s a way for me to get what I need.” The brain is amazing.

Pete Mockaitis
So, the corollary then, on the sleep side, is what’s the body prompting us to do when we’re sleep deprived?

Peter Shankman
It varies. We could do everything from, “Oh, my God. I need several more cups of coffee,” or, “I need to take a stimulant,” or even just sitting in your office zoning out and not being anywhere near as productive as you can.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Peter Shankman
Right? And it’s so funny because people, “Oh, I wish I could eat or sleep. I don’t have the time.” Well, I’m pretty sure that where you live and where I live, the sun orbits the earth around, or the earth orbits the sun around the same time, right? If you live in one part of New York and I live in another part of New York, and you say you don’t have the time, but I somehow do have the time, I’m pretty sure it’s not that time has nothing to do with it.

I’m pretty sure that we both live on the same part of the planet that revolves around the sun at the same exact time so I don’t suddenly have an hour more in my day time-wise than you do. What I do have is the priority.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I’m with you. Cool. So, now I’m intrigued then, in a way it seems like the elimination of choice is one that really reinforces and supports all the other three.

Peter Shankman
No question about it.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, I’d love to maybe go a little bit deeper then on that. So, we talked about the closet and the food. What are some other ways you think professionals could really be enriched by some application of elimination of choice?

Peter Shankman
My desk has my laptop on it, it has my screens on it, and that would be about it. Maybe it has a glass or a bottle of water. Keep your desk clean. Keep the stuff clean and you will find that there’s nothing to get lost in, right? I have to do work on Facebook for a living so I do kind of a wonderful extension for Chrome called Kill Newsfeed which does exactly that. All I see on Chrome is my advertising and things like that so I don’t get suck down that rabbit hole.

Pete Mockaitis
Wow.

Peter Shankman
I go into specific places. I have five books that I’ve written, and for the last three of them have been written entirely on airplanes, I mean, I fly a lot for work, but flying is also the best place where I can get work done. So, I have actually done things where I will go and I will fly – I flew to Asia – to write a book. I flew to Asia, I had two weeks left to my deadline, I wrote chapters one through five on the flight out.

I landed in Tokyo, I went through immigration, I went back through immigration, I had a cup of coffee in the lounge, got back on the same plane, same seat two hours later, wrote chapters six through ten . . . landed 31 hours later with a bestselling book. It sounds crazy but, again, if it works for you it’s not.

[00:18:14]

Pete Mockaitis
And I’ve heard sort of different variance of that, writing a book was it J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter? She went to a hotel.

Peter Shankman
Yeah, she went to a hotel. Same thing. Same exact thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Or some others will go to a remote cabin or cottage.

Peter Shankman
My basic thing is if I need to work, I need to go to a place where I can go into… Cal Newport wrote a book called Deep Work, and the basic premise behind that is exactly that. On my plane, I’m in my, what I call my zone of focus, okay? Nothing can bother me. I have a flight attendant constantly bringing me water or soda, whatever.

It’s in-air in-flight internet which kind of sucks anyway, so I don’t have internet, right? All I have is my laptop, my comfortable seat, a bathroom 30 steps away, and 14 hours to do nothing. I use a wonderful program on the Mac called Ommwriter which allows you to shut down every other program, alert, whatever, on your computer as long as you’re using it, and only shows you a white screen that you can type on.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Interesting. And so that’s just for writing then.

Peter Shankman
Yup, and I put on a really good headphones, I have some great work music and I just go to town.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, let’s hear about the work music. What are you sporting there?

Peter Shankman
Oh, my God, it varies. It’s everything from themes, a lot of theme songs, a lot of movie soundtracks, some great ones. Everything from The Book of Eli which is all instrumental, all the way up to Rocky which has some really good powerful stuff on it, it keeps me going. For me, it’s really about listening, having that music play in the background.

Studies have shown time after time that music does help your concentration and, yeah, it’s really about having that. And I love my headphones, I have my Harman, P35 I think, great headphones. And I use everything I have to get what I need to get into the zone I need to be in, the place I need to be in so I can get everything I need to get done done.

Pete Mockaitis
So, with the music, are you deliberately choosing, “Hmm, I’m a little sluggish or sleepy. Let’s kind of pump it up,” versus, “Ooh, I’m a little bit all over the place. Let’s slow it down”? Or is that kind of how you’re playing that game?

Peter Shankman
Not necessarily. I have music. If you go to my work music it does tend to be a lot less vocals, a lot more instrumental, because if it’s vocals I’ll wind up singing along which might not often help. But it’s definitely a lot more instrumental. But, yeah, again it’s just music that I love. Whatever works for you, use. But, yeah, that’s the kind of stuff for me that I’m a huge fan of.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I am intrigued here. It seems like one of the themes we were talking about here from the early rising to the flying to Asia and back is about sort of isolation or separation from distractions in general, but people in particular. And so, I guess I’m curious about the other people side of the equation. It’s like one approach is to just get completely away from them via they’re not awake or you’re in a plane and you can’t be accessed. What are some of your other thoughts for how that you manage that area kind of prudently and appropriately?

Peter Shankman
Well, I have a four-year old daughter, and when I’m with her I want to be completely and fully with her, right? I don’t want to be looking at my phone so I’ll leave my phone in my room and just go out and play with her. For me, it’s really about being in that moment and being as present as possible, and I know that when my phone is in front of me I’m going to look at it, right?

And so, I also know that I’ve set up my life in such a way that I’ve worked. By the time 5:00, 6:00 p.m. is when I head home to see her, I’ve been working since – what? 6:00 a.m.? 7:00a.m.? – so, I can take a break.

Pete Mockaitis
Right.

Peter Shankman
I can go enjoy myself, and that to me is huge. There’s no guilt there. And I shut off my phone at night when I go to sleep at night. I don’t just put it on silent. I shut it off. And what I found from that is that, “Oh, my God, what happens if I shut it off? Will I miss so much?” You know how many times I’ve actually missed something important, I think once. And the people who matter in my life are my parents, my daughter’s mom, they have my home number.

Pete Mockaitis
Right.

Peter Shankman
Worst case, if it’s 2:00 in the morning, they can call the home number. It’s never been a problem. We make a lot more of these problems in our minds than really exists.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m also curious to hear, you’ve dropped the name of several tools whether it’s a Chrome extension or a piece of software or your headphones. I would love to hear all the more. What are some additional tools or hacks you’re using with the tools, whether it’s the calendar, the to-do list, or whatever, that you find handy for running your brain and your life?

Peter Shankman
Yeah, I think you have to figure out what ecosystem you belong to and stick with it. So, I’m in the Mac and Google ecosystems, so I have my iPhone. But because I’m on Google, I also use a Huawei Mate 10 which is a phenomenal phone, so I use both of them. And the apps that I use vary for what I need. I use everything from, I’m huge on WhatsApp, on WeChat, all that stuff where I go overseas a lot, so how can I continue to be connected and not have to worry about losing that connection wherever I go. And then I’ll shut down when I need to.

So, what other apps do I use? I love shopping. Being able to think about something I might need, add it to my shopping order over the course of a week and then just hit send every Saturday. So, again, it’s really just eliminating the choice and eliminating the worry of, “Did I put that there? Did I take care of that?” Whatever.

Pete Mockaitis
Right. Now, when you say hit send with shopping.

Peter Shankman
So, I use FreshDirect. That’s only in New York. I’m not sure if it’s everywhere. But essentially FreshDirect, I just order everything online, it shows up four days later. It’s from a store out in the city. It’s phenomenal.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s good. I dig Instacart here in Chicago.

Peter Shankman
Yeah, same thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. Okay. Well, any other things that you want to share when it comes to the creative energy or this mythical hyper-focus? How do we tap into some of these superpowers?

Peter Shankman
I would suggest one more thing, and that is that when you don’t have a deadline, that’s a problem. Like I can’t work without a deadline, and what I’ve learned is to tell my clients to give me an actual date and time that he wants something, because if they don’t, what ends up happening is it becomes the most important thing to do until the next project I get, and then that becomes the most important thing and I haven’t finished the first one.

So, if you tell me, “Oh, just give it to me whenever,” you’ll never get it. But if you tell me, “I need it by Tuesday at 4:00 p.m.,” you’ll get it on Tuesday at 4:00 p.m. because now I have a deadline to work backwards from there. And we do that a lot. Most CEOs, we tend to not be able to complete things because there’s always something new coming up. So, if you give me a deadline I’ll make sure I get it.

And the last thing I’d suggest is make sure you have a tribe of people who understand what you’re doing for a living and understand what you need and how they could benefit you. Essentially, have a support system. We don’t talk about this but working for someone else, entrepreneurship, whichever work you’re doing, it tends to get lonely, right? Most people don’t understand what you do and unless they’re working right with you and want to share people right with you because then it becomes a competitive thing.

You really want to focus on having a tribe of people. I mean, for me, I run a Mastermind group, it’s called ShankMinds and we have just under 200 people in it, all of whom are either entrepreneurial in nature or work for themselves, whatever. And I could say, “Guys, do me a favor. I’m putting it out here. I want to make sure I’m up for it. I have a thousand words I need to write by March. Make sure I get it done.” And I’ll get emails 6:00 a.m. “Hey, done it yet? Done it yet? Done it yet?” and it forces you to do it. It’s great. So, I’m a huge fan of having a tribe, having a group of people who you trust.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Well, thank you for sharing. And so, then, anything else on tapping into the hyper-focus and creative energies?

Peter Shankman
I think, at the end of the day, you can’t force it. If you’re not in a mode or in a mood or in the right place to get what you need done done, don’t do it right then; do it another time, right? Do something else. One thing that I’ve had great success with is doing things that I love first. So, I’ll go for a run or I’ll do something.

I talk to kids in school all the time and I tell them, “Look, if you have two subjects in homework, Math and English, and you love English but hate Math, do the English first. Because you love doing English, that in itself will give you a little bit of a brain chemistry boost that will let you get through the Math.”

Pete Mockaitis
Now, I find that logical on one hand, and then I’ve got in my other ear, “Is it Brian Tracy Eat That Frog advice associated with procrastination or feeling like a bowling winner who knocks out the trickiest thing, at the end of the day and feels momentum?” How do you…?

Peter Shankman
Here’s the thing, at the end of the day, your homework is due tomorrow, either way. So, for me, I look along the lines of being able to, I want every bit of availability to be able to do the stuff I love. And I know that if I do the stuff I love first I’ll be excited about it, I’ll be happy about it and then I will feel that hopefully will translate into giving me just a little bit of brain boost to get through that I don’t love. Now, I totally understand what Brian said and all that. I get that. It’s just different ways of working.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Got you. Well, then, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Peter Shankman
Oh, we’re good. I think, at the end of the day, ADHD or just trying to get more out of your day is actually a good thing as long as you know how to use it.

Pete Mockaitis
Now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Peter Shankman
A friend of mine once told me this to me, he said, “If you can’t change the people around you, change the people around you.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, okay. I see two levels there.

Peter Shankman
Huge fan. Always been a huge fan of that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Cool. And how about a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Peter Shankman
So, I used to date a woman who was neuroscientist, a Ph.D. neuroscientist, years ago. And she took me, she knew that I skydive, and she used to do studies on the brain and things like that. And one day, she said, “I want to your blood and do some tests on you for fun.” This test for me, she basically took my blood right before I jumped out of a plane, when I woke the day I was going skydiving because I have about 500 jumps, and then again when I came down. She said, “Yeah, when you woke up, you’re pretty much normal, classic ADHD, 25% less monoamine inhibitors, all those things,” I had no idea what she meant.

And she goes, “And then when you land, you’re pretty much a coke addict.” She goes, “You’re about as high as a kite, you’re about a mile away from being a full-pledged junkie.” I’m like, “Intriguing.” And so, it’s that sort of wakeup call that, “Yeah, this stuff really works and you can use it to your advantage.” I found that amazing. Getting your brain into that place where it’s just supercharged is such a good thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. Thank you. And now, how about a favorite book?

Peter Shankman
What’s my current favorite book? There was a great book called They Can Kill You But They Can’t Eat You, it’s by a woman named Dawn Steel. She was the first female head at Paramount, and she talks all about making it in that industry. It’s a great book when you’re looking for inspiration.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, you’ve already mentioned several tools. But could you tell us about a total favorite of yours?

Peter Shankman
Like I said, Ommwriter is definitely a given. Anything that allows me to work better, faster, quicker without delay. So, whether that means not having to talk to people, it could be anything from an airline app all the way to my Canon camera which transfers photos from my real camera all the way to my phone automatically so you get great Instagram shots. Whatever it is.

Pete Mockaitis
How about TextExpander? I’m a huge fan myself.

Peter Shankman
I love TextExpander. Yeah, love TextExpander. I love, like I said, Ommwriter. All those things are great. I use a great one called Jing by TechSmith that allows me to grab, it’s a great screenshot program.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, yeah.

Peter Shankman
So, you have tons of them out there.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool.

Peter Shankman
Dropbox, Google Drive. Again, anything that works for you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a particular nugget that you share that you sort of hear quoted back to yourself often?

Peter Shankman
You can’t make anything viral but you can make something good.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Peter Shankman
My link is at shankman.com, the Mastermind is at ShankMinds.com, and the podcast/book on ADHD is at FasterThanNormal.com.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?
Peter Shankman
If you do nothing else, get up a half an hour earlier. It’ll change your life.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. All right. Well, Peter, this has been such a treat. Thank you for sharing. And good luck in all of your writing and masterminding, and all you’re up to.

Peter Shankman
My pleasure. Looking forward to it. Talk soon.

Pete Mockaitis
Bye-bye.