Vanessa Patrick shares the science behind why we struggle to say no—and what you can do to get better at refusing.
You’ll Learn:
- The three competencies of empowered refusal.
- What to do when someone’s being pushy.
- Why it’s better for your reputation to say no.
About Vanessa
Vanessa Patrick, PhD. is the Associate Dean for Research, the Bauer Professor of Marketing, and lead faculty of the Executive Women in Leadership Program at the Bauer School of Business at the University of Houston. She has a PhD in business from the University of Southern California, Los Angeles. She is the author of The Power of Saying No: The New Science of How to Say No that Puts you in Charge of your Life.
- Book: The Power of Saying No: The New Science of How to Say No that Puts You in Charge of Your Life
- Instagram: vanpat23
- LinkedIn: Vanessa Patrick
- Twitter: @vpatrick23
- Website: VanessaPatrick.net
Resources Mentioned
- Book: Lessons in Chemistry: A Novel by Bonnie Garmus
- Past episode: 701: How to Get People to Say Yes through the Power of Persuasion with Vanessa Bohns
Vanessa Patrick Interview Transcript
Pete Mockaitis
Vanessa, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.
Vanessa Patrick
Hey, Pete, lovely to be here.
Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to dig into your book, The Power of Saying No: The New Science of How to Say No that Puts You in Charge of Your Life. This has been a challenge that many of our listeners are facing so I think this is going to be so cool to get into it. But, first, I wanted to start with is there a particularly memorable no-story you could share with us to kick things off?
Vanessa Patrick
Well, I start the book with a didn’t-say-no story that motivated this whole stream of work. I’m happy to tell you about that.
Pete Mockaitis
Let’s do it.
Vanessa Patrick
Well, it all began when I spent my 24th birthday staring at a fax machine, and it was a memorable day because I spent the evening at the office waiting for a fax. It wasn’t even an important fax. It was just a fax, which said that the client had received a fax that we had sent earlier. And I spent the whole evening waiting for the fax because my boss told me to do so.
And it was a moment where I realized that we very often, in work and life, get stuck doing very trivial things, pretty meaningless things some of the time, that we could easily say no to. And that moment made me realize the importance of learning to say no when the situation merits it.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, tell me, how late was it when you left?
Vanessa Patrick
So, I wanted to leave at 5:00 o’clock. It was a Tuesday. The fax arrived at 9:30 in the evening. And so, I basically spent four and a half hours just staring at a fax machine waiting for that white paper to spew out of the machine, and all that white paper said when it arrived, was, “Received with thanks.” And I remember my 24th birthday and that crinkly white paper so distinctly because it was so trivial.
And, Pete, if I had to redo this all over again, if I were me when I was 24, if I was me, the me now, when I was 24, I would’ve negotiated that ask. I would’ve said something like, “Can I come early tomorrow morning and pick up the fax and put it on your desk? Or, can I ask a friend to please stay back and do it if it was that important?” It didn’t have to be me, and I did not have to spend my time doing that, and yet I did.
Pete Mockaitis
Wait, I’m sorry. You said you were 24 years old, and then you said birthday. This was, in fact, your 24th birthday?
Vanessa Patrick
And I missed the birthday party.
Pete Mockaitis
Oh, my goodness.
Vanessa Patrick
It was quite sad. I’ve recovered. Don’t worry.
Pete Mockaitis
But it is definitely seared. We could tell that memory was really seared into you because you remember it was a Tuesday and the exact text of the fax, and the time that it arrived. Now, these are some details.
Vanessa Patrick
Yes, because when you’re sitting over there for four and a half hours, knowing that everyone in your house is having a party, people are coming and going, people are eating dinner, they’re leaving, you think about these things and you realize, “Why am I doing this? Is this worth it?” And those are the feelings that we need to kind of capture and memorize so that we don’t make those same mistakes again.
So, I talk about, in the book, the importance of learning from our mistakes, and the fact that when we say yes when we want to say no, we sometimes have to pause and actually let ourselves feel bad about that because we naturally, as human beings, have this coping mechanism, something called the psychological immune system, which jumps in as soon as we feel bad and tries to repair the situation, trying to find the silver lining, trying to look for something good out of that bad situation.
And that is why we don’t learn very well from bad situations. We need to stop, embrace that horrible feeling so that we learn from it, so the next time we’re in that situation, we can manage it a little bit better.
Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And what’s interesting is because of the drama of this particular instance, like it’s a task that is so trivial, I don’t know, maybe there’s lives on the line associated with this fax.
Vanessa Patrick
There were not.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay, there weren’t. So, it seems super trivial, and it’s four and a half unnecessary hours in which you’re not actively engaged, and you’re missing out on something really cool, all really come together. So, in a weird way, I like the notion, the psychological immune system, this was kind of a blessing because you had an epiphany that, I believe, has served you well over the subsequent years, and now you’re enriching many thousands with this work. So, indirectly, I guess we can thank that boss for this request.
Vanessa Patrick
Yes, I do think that it did kind of change the trajectory of my life. You start questioning. It was my first job, you start questioning, “Is this the kind of job that I want? Is there something more meaningful and important I could do?” And, also, the curiosity about “Why do people do this? Why do people behave in certain ways?” which has shaped my career as a consumer psychologist.
Pete Mockaitis
And for many of us, when we say yes when we should’ve said no, the pain we experience is more minor. It may not be enough for us to really rewind, evaluate, and make some changes.
Vanessa Patrick
But we do feel resentful very often. A lot of the people in my studies often talk about the fact that they’ve said yes when they want to say no, and they feel very resentful towards the other person, and really wished they did not do that. And so, in many ways, but we also search for reasons as to why we said yes and come up with the fact that it might be a growth opportunity. It could open doors. It could lead to a promotion. So, we make up these things to make ourselves feel better but sometimes we need to just see it for what it is and not make the mistake again.
Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s interesting how we resent them, and, though, I guess we’ve got at least 50% responsibility as to having said yes.
Vanessa Patrick
Yes.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, you’ve done a lot of studies, you’ve engaged a lot of people here. Any particularly surprising, fascinating, counterintuitive discoveries you’ve made here when it comes to us humans and our relationships saying no?
Vanessa Patrick
Yes. It’s no surprise that, of course, human beings have trouble saying no, but one of the things that come out consistently in my research is the fact that no is a gendered issue, that women struggle way more to say no than men do. Women are more likely to say yes to a workplace request than men are. Women are more likely to be asked to do unpromotable work, or unpaid work, or the office housework, but they’re also more likely to take those things on.
One of the most interesting things in my studies is something that I call the spotlight effect. And the spotlight effect is this feeling of being in the spotlight when someone makes their ask of you. So, in a study, I put people in different conditions. In one condition, I told them that they were asked to do something that they didn’t want to do, and there was a crowd of people who had already agreed to do it.
And based on the research of social psychology, we know that we are more likely to conform to that ask. The spotlight is going to shine way more brightly on us when we know that other people are watching and expecting us to say yes. So, of course, both men and women are more likely to say yes when there are lots of people watching even if they want to say no.
I also do another scenario where that request is an interpersonal request. There’s no crowd, it’s just one person versus another person, the asker and the askee. And in that situation, you find that men are significantly more likely to say, “No, this is not going to work,” if it’s a one on one, but women still respond at the same level as if there was a crowd watching.
So, women, it’s almost like women have conjured up this imaginary crowd that is watching them, and the spotlight shines brightly on them, whether it’s a one-on-one interaction or whether it’s a group. I, personally, think that’s a super interesting finding, and it’s fascinating to think about why that is, and why women feel that pressure to say yes, feel more intense spotlight regardless of whether it’s a one-on-one ask or it’s a crowd.
Pete Mockaitis
And can you share with us a rough sense of these figures here, the crowd effect versus the one-on-one effect, that is at stake here? Is it a smidgen more pressure and probability of saying yes, or is it like double, triple, quadruple?
Vanessa Patrick
So, when it was a social ask, and when both men and women responded equivalently, so about five on a scale of one to seven, on, “How much attention did you feel was on you?” That drops to four for men, which was significantly different, statistically significantly lower compared to women who remained at around 4.5.
Pete Mockaitis
Oh, got you. And I guess I’m curious about the percentage of percent of time said yes and didn’t want to.
Vanessa Patrick
The number of times they said yes, so we don’t have that. In the experiment, we didn’t look at that. The scenario required everyone to say yes or no.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay, got you.
Vanessa Patrick
So, everyone wanted to say no. It was a clear scenario when no one wanted to do it.
Pete Mockaitis
What is our scenario?
Vanessa Patrick
Yeah, so it was something like spending your spring break doing some volunteer work for a friend who just caught you. So, it was the first day of spring break and someone pulled you aside, and said, “No, you need to help me with this volunteer work, and spend your entire spring break doing this, making calls on my behalf,” which is something we pre-tested no one wanted to do, no one wanted to spend their spring break doing.
Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it would have to be some pretty, meaningfully interesting, powerful calls. It’s hard to dream up the scenario where that would be a win, like, “Oh, yeah.” Okay. Cool. Thank you. All right. So, there we have it, interesting tidbits there. So, then, overall, what would you say is sort of the main thesis or big idea behind the book The Power of Saying No?
Vanessa Patrick
So, a lot of people, successful people, and, in general, most people know that it’s a good thing to say no to the things that you don’t want to do. The question is how. So, the big idea behind the book is the way in which you communicate your refusal and something called empowered refusal, which is the basis of my research.
Empowered refusal is a super skill of being able to say no in a way that’s effective. And what effective, essentially, means is that you are able to communicate a no response while maintaining your relationship with the other person and securing your reputation.
Pete Mockaitis
That sounds perfect.
Vanessa Patrick
It does.
Pete Mockaitis
How do we do that?
Vanessa Patrick
So, I talk about the fact that you need to develop three competencies to develop the skill of empowered refusal but, essentially, empowered refusal requires you to say no by looking inwards. You need to say no by giving voice to your values, priorities, preferences, and beliefs. So, it’s a no that stems from your identity. And when you say no that stems from your identity, giving voice to what you believe, the way you believe things should be, people are less likely to give you pushback and more likely to be persuaded by your no.
Pete Mockaitis
Well, tell us, what are the three competencies and how do we develop them?
Vanessa Patrick
Right. So, the three competencies, I call the ART of empowered refusal, A-R-T, awareness, rules not decisions, and totality of self. So, your empowered refusal begins with self-awareness. It begins with you looking inwards and developing a sense of what you uniquely bring to the table, what you care about, what do you value, how do you want to find meaning in your life.
So, an awareness of your preferences, your beliefs, your values, forms the foundation of step number two, which is setting up a system of rules, and not having to make decisions all the time. So, once you understand yourself, then you can set yourself up with a set of personal policies or simple rules that guide your actions and decisions. So, if you have rules in place, or policies in place, it’s much easier for you to say no because you already have a very firm stance on what you believe and how you want things to be.
And the final piece of the puzzle is the way you communicate your empowered refusal, which is using your whole self, using not only your language but also your nonverbal cues. Nonverbal cues that both convey empowerment but also secure your relationship with the other person. So, I can give you a few examples.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay.
Vanessa Patrick
Let’s imagine that someone asked you to fly somewhere. Unprepared, unannounced, you’ve got fly over the weekend to do something that is not part of your job, and you don’t want to do it because you do not work on weekends, or weekends are family time as far as you’re concerned. So, you have a personal policy in place about how you’d like to spend your weekends, and you are able to better communicate your refusal based on that stance.
What usually happens when people ask you for something that you want to say no to is that we grasp for the first available excuse. And excuses are much less effective than policies. Policies reflect a long-standing stance which stem from something that’s important to you, something that you value. And when you use a policy, you are more likely to get compliance than if you use an excuse.
Pete Mockaitis
Interesting. You say compliance, as in the requestor just overrides you.
Vanessa Patrick
No, the requestor will either push back or they will respect your refusal. Those are the two main options. So, when someone asks you something, they typically expect a yes. It is societally expected that an invitation, an ask, a favor, is going to garner a yes response. There’s a ton of research that shows that we say yes to the most ridiculous requests because we are socialized and hardwired to help.
We are conditioned to be cooperative. We are psychologically poised in many ways to say yes than to say no. And because of that psychological makeup and that socialization, when we say no, we often get pushback from the asker.
Pete Mockaitis
That’s intriguing on so many levels. One, I’m thinking that’s kind of absurd that that’s in us humans. Two, I’m thinking I guess there’s probably a set of contexts that make that true versus not true. So, the majority of my emails are pitches from publicists and authors, etc. to want to be on my podcast, maybe the plurality of emails.
And so, I would imagine they don’t really expect that I will say yes because, in their own experience of any sort of recruiting, sales, business development activity, the majority of people say no. And I find it a little funny when they say, “I’m just making sure you got my email. Like, this is the weirdest thing that you didn’t reply.”
Like, in some ways, I find that a little bit irksome because there seems to be, like, almost dishonesty there. It’s, like, “You don’t really expect a response. Of course, you would like one.” So, I guess that’s what I’m thinking. Like, in the context of a stranger who’s asking hundreds of thousands of people the same thing via an impersonal platform, email, I don’t imagine they expect a yes. But you tell me, maybe they really do.
Vanessa Patrick
You hit the nail on the head in terms of the impersonal platform. So, we are 34 times more likely to say yes to a face-to-face request.
Pete Mockaitis
Thirty-four.
Vanessa Patrick
So, email is actually the best way to say no to people because it’s impersonal, as you just mentioned. You take away that face-to-face concern. I also think that if you think about the studies that people have done, like Vanessa Bohns, for example. She has people ask people to do the craziest things: defile library books, “Can I play in your backyard?” “Can you mail this for me?” completely crazy things, and she finds that people are much more likely to say yes, even to those completely ridiculous requests than say no.
And there’s a lot of evidence out there that people do struggle with saying no, and so it’s just easier to say yes. And so, I talk about it in terms of the fact that society favors the asker. So, if you’re the asker, you get to ask and then everybody feels really terrible about saying no. But we have to remember that an ask is just an ask. We don’t have to say yes to every ask that comes our way. And for a lot of people, they struggle with that.
Pete Mockaitis
Thirty-four times. Well, now I’m intrigued. Do we know where phone calls stack up, because in a way it’s live and real time, but there’s not a face? So, I imagine it’d be in the middle. Do you have the numbers on that?
Vanessa Patrick
No, I do not. But I’d imagine that it’s somewhere in between the face-to-face and the email. But I think, because it’s technology-mediated, it becomes easier to say no even on a phone call compared to a face-to-face request.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s powerful right there.
Vanessa Patrick
Yeah. So, one of the things that I mentioned is the importance of putting technology in between you and the asker when it becomes a very difficult ask, or when you’re dealing with a very pushy asker. Convert the conversation to a digital medium or put some technology between you. It’s easier to text, it’s easier to phone, a phone call converted to an email than to handle people face to face.
Pete Mockaitis
You know, I’m reminded of I’ve got a buddy who’s a priest. He tells me that after church, there’s crowds of people, and they shake hands and say hello. Well, it’s a good way for people to have a little bit of a relationship exchange, community-building there. And he said that he was inundated with requests, like, “Oh, you should come over have dinner. We should hang out in this way or that way.” And he used to say yes all the time, immediately, and schedule, he’s like, “Oh, my gosh, my calendar is out of control.”
And so, he decided his new policy was, when they make an invitation, assuming he doesn’t want to immediately do it, he says, “You know, that sounds great. Please call the office on Monday and talk to Debra, or whomever, and she owns my calendar, and she’ll find a good time for us.” And he said, invariably, like way over 90%, he told me, of the incoming requests just disappear because it’s quite a difference to say, “Hey, I had this fun idea. Why the heck not?” versus, “Okay, I’m going to actually have to remember to put into my calendar, to call the administrative assistant, and get that sorted out.”
So, I thought that was brilliant in that you’re continuing to show interest and it’s not blowing them off.
Vanessa Patrick
I think your priest friend has got two principles right in the book, that I talk about in the book. Never say yes in the moment, like always buy time. And second is, if you have the opportunity to delegate to someone, and that person says no on your behalf, it’s a win. So, Debra from the office, if she says no to the person, it’s not going to feel as bad as when your friend has to say no.
Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And just the dramatic reduction in terms of folks who even do that is huge.
Vanessa Patrick
Will follow up, yeah.
Pete Mockaitis
So, now, tell me, when it comes to the rules, I don’t know who, if this is from a TV show or a movie somewhere, but someone was hiring a nanny or a housekeeper, and they just laid it like, “I don’t do dishes, I don’t do laundry, I don’t do cooking, I don’t do diapers.” And it’s sort of like, “Okay. Well, this isn’t going to work, is it?”
And so, I think that emotional side of us, in terms of a rule, that sounds like, “Ooh, that sounds awesome.” Like, you can communicate a rule, you have some extra conviction, they understand not to ask again, so that has a lot going for it. But it can feel a little more scary, “I’m not just saying no once. I’m saying no to a potential hundreds of future requests in one fell swoop.” And that’s even scarier to say, Vanessa, so how do you think about the articulation of rules?
Vanessa Patrick
So, these rules are just simple rules that you set up for yourself to increase things like your productivity, to enhance the quality of your decision-making, to make your relationships better, to advance yourself in your career. These are things that all of us care about in working life, and these are all the things that we need to think about, setting small rules.
It is not this rule, like the nanny you were talking about, not to do the job that you were hired to do. It’s about doing the job the best possible way you can. And sometimes you have to protect your time to be able to do that job. I think one of the things that we see in the workplace right now is the tyranny of the number of meetings that you’re dragged into. You don’t actually have time to do what you were hired to do.
And so, sometimes just setting up rules around when you meet and when you work, or when you can take some time to do some deep work that needs to be done and protect that time, these are simple rules that just enhance your productivity and actually make you a more valuable member of the organization.
Pete Mockaitis
Now that sounds awesome. Do you actually articulate some of that stuff if you were to, say, have this conversation with a manager?
Vanessa Patrick
Yeah. So, think about what your priorities are, what the job is, what do you need to do? So, one of the conceptualizations that I really love that I use in the book is this notion of, “What is good work?” And Howard Gardner from Harvard University, he’s an educational psychologist, comes up with a lovely definition of what is good work, good work that is meaningful.
Good work has three main dimensions, kind of like a DNA strand. It is excellent, it is emotional or engaging, and it is ethical. And so, when we do good work, we are essentially devoting ourselves to work that brings out the best of us, that leverages our strengths, that showcases what we bring to the table. When we do good work, it is emotionally gratifying. It feels good to do. We feel as if we’ve achieved something meaningful. And, finally, is that it does good, like it has an ethical dimension. It makes the world better. You leave the place better than you found it.
And so, when you think about work, and when we think about work, if we can think about this framework of work, and then try and achieve on a daily basis that sort of quality work, and in order to do that, we do need to set up these personal policies that facilitate that sort of activity.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, to tackle the fears head on, if we fear that, “Oh, I’m going to be perceived as not a team player, or I’m lazy, I’m not manager or executive material because I’m not truly committed with my rules and my no’s,” do you have an answer, or even better, some real data on what it’s like on the receiving end?
Vanessa Patrick
So, this is the concern for reputation. So, there are two main concerns for why we say yes when we want to say no. One is we want to be liked. So, one is a concern for relationships, and the other is a concern for reputation. The concern for relationships deals with the need to be liked, to be included in a social group, to have friends, to be part of something.
And our reputation is the other thing that we’re really concerned about, the notion that we want to be seen as competent, on the ball, a team player. Reputation is, essentially, what people say about us when we leave the room, and we want people to say good things.
And so, these are two key drivers for why we say yes when we want to say no. So, your point about, “Oh, I’m concerned about these things that people will say,” is the reputation concern. And I always say, of course, you should take on things that you can handle and that you can fit into your schedule, but I call it the house of cards trap.
Essentially, if you think about every ask that comes your way, and if your goal is to be a team player and to be seen as competent, and you just keep saying yes to that stuff, you’re essentially adding more and more cards to an increasingly fragile house of cards that is going to collapse if you do not, at some point, essentially.
And so, thinking about your reputation in the short term, like, “If I say yes right now, they will like me, they will think I’m competent,” as opposed to thinking about your reputation in the long term. If you keep taking more stuff, you’re going to drop the ball, you’re not going to be able to deliver, you’re not going to be able to deliver quality.
And so, I always argue, “Is it better to say no up front, because it is just something that is not in your wheelhouse or doesn’t leverage your strengths, or you simply just don’t have the time to do it? Say no now or drop the ball later, and have your reputation take a hit, or a bigger hit perhaps.”
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now could you give us some example articulations of the no that is artful and it’s an empowered refusal? And I say, “Hey, Vanessa, I would love it if you could stay late. We got this really big client presentation coming up on Friday, and I think we’re behind, and there’s really a lot at stake. So, could you stick it out for a few hours?”
Vanessa Patrick
That may not be the best time to say no.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay.
Vanessa Patrick
So, one of the things I talk about is deciphering the ask, like, “How do you decipher to say yes to and what to say no to?” If it’s a high stakes, really important thing that you need to pitch in for, it may not be the best thing to say no to. But if someone asks you, “Hey, can you organize the retirement party because someone is retiring?” That is something that is not urgent, not terribly important, and anybody can do it. That may be the thing to be saying no to.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that’s good. Well, I was going to ask, in terms of we’ve got our rules, how do we think about bending rules and under what circumstances?
Vanessa Patrick
I think they are your rules and they are meant to be meant. But if you bend them every single day then it’s not a rule. You need to have rules, and you need to have contingencies, and you need to have a sense of, let’s say, “I never work in the evenings because 6:00 to 8:00 is family time.” Assume that that’s my rule. But as you just said, if someone says, “Hey, Vanessa, can you pitch in because we have this really important thing, and can you make an exception and come just this Thursday evening because Friday is this big deadline?” By all means, you can break your own rule if you choose to.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you recommend articulating that in a special way?
Vanessa Patrick
So, I often talk about saying things in terms of using very absolute words, “I don’t,” “I always,” “I never,” “It’s my policy.” These are words that communicate that you are speaking from a place of power, so they are empowered language. They also reflect your stance on the matter. So, “I don’t,” “I never.” So, one of the research studies that we did was compared words like, “I don’t” versus “I can’t.”
So, whenever you frame a refusal, you can always say, “I’m really sorry, I can’t do this,” or, “I’m sorry, I don’t do this.” So, let’s imagine you’re at a party and someone is offering you chocolate cake. You can say, “I’m sorry I can’t eat the chocolate cake.” It comes across as disempowered and you’re most likely going to get someone saying, “Why not? It’s just a piece of cake. Go ahead and eat it.” You’re going to get the pushback.
Imagine that you say, “I’m sorry, I don’t eat chocolate cake.” No one pushes back. This is your rule, “I’m not a chocolate cake-eating person.” It implicates the identity. And using language that implicates the identity is less likely to get pushback.
Pete Mockaitis
That’s true. It takes an extra level of courage and curiosity to dig into that. And I think most people probably wouldn’t feel comfortable saying, “Well, why not?” but rather is just, like, it’s almost you have to do more mental work to think about how I engage that conversation further if I were going to, such as, “Oh, that’s interesting. What led you to adopt this policy?”
Vanessa Patrick
Yeah, and most often you don’t get that conversation continuing. Most people accept a refusal when it stems from your identity because that’s who you are, that’s the kind of person you are, right?
Pete Mockaitis
I remember when I was at a party, and someone said, it was a husband and wife, and she said, “Oh, Ricky doesn’t drink anymore.” And so, I’m so full of curiosity, I was like, “Well, now I really want to know what happened with Ricky’s historical drinking.” It’s like, “I’m not going to.” I just met the dude and he’s friendly and cool. I hope we get to maybe have that conversation later. But not the time or the place for me to dig into his history of his relationship with alcohol, though I’m so curious now.
All right. So, I hope Ricky is doing great. Now, you also recommend that we frame our refusal using more nouns instead of verbs. What’s the thinking here?
Vanessa Patrick
So, research shows that nouns, again, implicate your identity. When you say, “I am a writer,” “I am a teacher,” “I am a mom,” these are nouns. They describe your stable stance. Whereas, verbs, like, “I write,” “I teach,” lots of people write, lots of people teach, you are just one of them. And so, verbs, essentially, describe an activity, whereas nouns describe who you are, again, implicating the identity.
And so, if you have to talk about yourself, and there’s research that shows that when we talk about ourselves in terms of nouns, we come across as more authentic and, like, stable individuals who can communicate what they do. And so, there’s some work that talks about how we should talk about these things in our resumes and in job interviews by using more nouns than verbs.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And now, Vanessa, we didn’t quite do a demo because you wisely mentioned, “Maybe this is not the time to say no,” but now let’s say it is the time to say no, and I’m saying, “Hey, Vanessa, could you pick up my drycleaning this afternoon? It looks like I’m not going to be able to make it there after all.”
Vanessa Patrick
“I’m sorry, I go to the gym every afternoon between 3:00 and 5:00.”
Pete Mockaitis
Okay, and that’s that. There’s no elaboration.
Vanessa Patrick
Yeah, know it’s a complete sentence.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. There we go. Let’s try again. “Vanessa, could you scan these documents and email them to me?”
Vanessa Patrick
“I believe we have someone who does those kinds of things. I’m not the person.”
Pete Mockaitis
Oh, this is fun. I can do this for a while.
Vanessa Patrick
Are you just going to do this all day?
Pete Mockaitis
Maybe. Maybe. I don’t know. Okay. “Vanessa, could you look over this proposal and make sure I didn’t make any silly mistakes?”
Vanessa Patrick
“Sure, absolutely. I’m really good at looking at proposals, and it leverages my unique strength, and I’m happy to strengthen your proposal for you.”
Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so that’s a yes, and that’s cool?
Vanessa Patrick
Yeah. And so, when you’re talking about this, the deciphering the asks, it’s really, I come up with this framework where you can use this mental model to help you to figure out what you say yes to and what you say no to. So, all the things you asked me, I, essentially, looked at them through that framework, and said, “What is the cost to me and what is the benefit to the other person?”
So, there are some things that are low cost to me but huge benefits to you. Like, looking over a two-page proposal and scanning it and making it better, that’s my strength. I’m good at it. I can make it better. I know it’s not a huge deal. I’m going to say yes because it’ll benefit you. But this, “Pick up my drycleaning,” and, “Check the weather and do this rubbish,” that is stuff, no, you shouldn’t be asking anyone to do.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do we know, from the person who makes a request, and they received a no done artfully, do we have a sense in terms of their thought about you, like the relationship and the liking that we’re worried about that’s at risk? To what extent is that a boogeyman of our minds versus that’s real?
Vanessa Patrick
I think we exaggerate the impact that our no’s will have on others. Most often, when you say no to somebody, they simply go ahead and ask the next person. If it’s something that anyone can do, they just go down the list. We do that ourselves. If someone says no to us about something, we just find somebody else to do it. You don’t really think that much about it.
If it’s something that is meaningful and important to you, then, by all means, think about taking it on after you’ve asked the necessary questions, “Is it important? When does it need to get done? How can I contribute? Why did you ask me? Is there something unique that I can do?” By asking questions, we can figure out what to say yes to.
So, I call these the hero’s journey asks. The hero’s journey asks are the ones that are high effort on our part but hugely beneficial to others. And so, we should say yes to those hero’s journey asks because those hero’s journey asks is what makes work life meaningful.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Vanessa, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?
Vanessa Patrick
I have this concept in the book that most people seem to like, which is called the walnut trees.
Pete Mockaitis
Let’s hear it.
Vanessa Patrick
And so, there are some people, despite your artful no, will not take no for an answer. And so, we need to figure out how to deal with these pushy askers. And in my book, I talk about these pushy askers as walnut trees. There are several descriptors of these kind of people in the literature – pushy people, bullies, etc. – but I choose to call them walnut trees, and I can tell you why.
A walnut tree is, essentially, this big tree with a luxuriant canopy, and it has a root system that spreads out 50 feet. But what it does is that it exudes in the soil a chemical called juglone and it stems the growth of everything around them, and so that’s why I call it that. It’s easier to deal with people when you can recognize walnut tree behavior, and say, “Oh, that’s walnut tree behavior,” when someone is being an exceptionally pushy asker. And there are strategies that you can develop to deal with walnut trees when they are being pushy, including, like we talked about, bringing in technology, delegating the ask, etc.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Now, could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?
Vanessa Patrick
My favorite quote, and one I say to myself almost every day, is, “Be in demand. Stay in control.”
Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?
Vanessa Patrick
I read a lot, so it’s hard to choose. But my favorite book of recent time has been Lessons in Chemistry.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?
Vanessa Patrick
QuillBot.
Pete Mockaitis
And what does that do?
Vanessa Patrick
It’s an AI-writing tool.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?
Vanessa Patrick
I wake up every morning at 5:15 so that I have some alone time. I thrive on the solitude of the morning and the serenity of the morning.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate and they quote back to you often?
Vanessa Patrick
“It goes the way you say.”
Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?
Vanessa Patrick
I’m on LinkedIn, I’m on Twitter @vpatrick23, and on Instagram vanpat23, and my website is VanessaPatrick.net.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?
Vanessa Patrick
Yes, don’t be afraid to say no. Invest in the art of empowered refusal and say no to the things that don’t matter.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. Vanessa, this has been a treat. Thank you and I wish you much luck and fun in all of your refusals.
Vanessa Patrick
Thank you. You, too.
Michael J. Gelb shows you how to shape your message so that your audience—big or small, in person or virtual—will care about it.
You’ll Learn:
- The three questions you need to ask before every presentation.
- How to align your message with your body language.
- How to channel your anxiety into your performance.
About Michael
Michael J. Gelb is the world’s leading authority on the application of genius thinking to personal and organizational development. He is the author of 17 books including How to Think Like Leonardo Da Vinci, Innovate Like Edison and Discover Your Genius. Michael’s books have been translated into 25 languages and have sold more than one million copies. His new book is Mastering the Art of Public Speaking: 8 Secrets to Overcome Fear and Supercharge Your Career.
- Book: How to Think Like Leonardo da Vinci: Seven Steps to Genius Every Day
- Book: Present Yourself!: Capture Your Audience with Great Presentation Skills
- Book: The Healing Organization: Awakening the Conscience of Business to Help Save the World
- Website: MichaelGelb.com
Resources Mentioned
- Book: Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl
Michael J. Gelb Interview Transcript
Pete Mockaitis
Michael, welcome back to How to be Awesome at Your Job.
Michael J. Gelb
Thank you so much. Great to be with you.
Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to get into your wisdom about mastering the art of public speaking but, first, we got to hear about your juggling experience and performing with The Rolling Stones. What’s the scoop here?
Michael J. Gelb
Well, I worked my way through graduate school as a professional juggler. I used to do children’s parties, I would perform on the streets outside Harvard Square and in London Portobello Road. I worked at a few nightclubs as a juggler. And one day, I was in Hyde Park in London practicing with my juggling partner who used to be the head of Reuters. He was the science editor for Reuters for Europe.
And we were just minding our business juggling in Hyde Park, and a gentleman approached us, and he said, “I’m the tour manager for The Rolling Stones. Their concert tour theme is carnival. We need jugglers. We’ll pay you £50 each if you can come to Earls Court Theater tonight and juggle in between sets with Mick and the Stones.”
So, yeah, we did that and then that went well, so we got invited to the Knebworth Rock Festival where we juggled on a stage shaped like Mick Jagger’s mouth in front of an audience of more than 100,000 people.
Pete Mockaitis
Wow, that is cool. So, what I love about that is that when you’re juggling, your skills are on full display, like it’s clear, like, “Hey, we need you…”
Michael J. Gelb
Or your lack thereof, yes.
Pete Mockaitis
The Rolling Stones manager was like, “Hey, we need jugglers. I can clearly see they are capable of juggling, therefore, come on down.”
Michael J. Gelb
Right.
Pete Mockaitis
That is beautiful. Well, I’ve always had trouble with juggling. Any pro tips for folks getting started?
Michael J. Gelb
Yeah. So, I taught myself to juggle because my original teacher was a brilliant juggler but he didn’t know how to teach. So, he told me, “Take these three balls. Throw them up. Don’t let any of them drop.” So, unfortunately, many of us get turned off from all kinds of activities because we’re told, “Learn this but don’t make mistakes.” And that seemed crazy to me, so I said, “There has to be a better way.”
And I figured, “What if we just started with one ball and got comfortable tossing one ball? And then attempted two but let the balls drop so we could focus just on the throw. And then throw three, let them drop.” And once you get them flowing out of your hands in the right rhythm and pattern, it’s actually quite effortless. They start landing in your hands, and before you know it, you’re juggling. So, the secret is to focus on the throw, start with one ball, work your way up, and have fun.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Now, we know. See, that’s a freebie. We didn’t know we were covering that because we’re talking public speaking. So, you had an earlier version of a book on public speaking over 30 years ago. Tell us, what are some of the lessons that takes 30 years to learn about speaking that you can give us a shortcut for right now?
Michael J. Gelb
Well, they’re really actually pretty simple. The simplest one is to actually know what you’re talking about because people come up to me, and say, “Oh, I want to be a public speaker.” Well, what’s your message? What do you have to tell us? What interesting life experience have you had? What stories do you have to share? What wisdom have you gained and accrued that you will put forth in your presentation? So, we can’t emphasize enough the importance of having something valuable to say.
Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think that sounds like, “Well, but of course.” But, really, though, I think that’s a powerful point that it’s easy to rush past, yet I think if we really stop and validate, there are many circumstances in which we don’t have something valuable to say, or, like, “Hey, there’s always a weekly staff meeting. That’s just what we do on the Mondays. Okay, and someone needs to present about this.”
So, I think that’s one context in which people speak without having something to say comes up. And I also think that sometimes speaking is not the best modality for conveying a thing, it’s like, “Hey, just write an email or send me a link to the cool TED Talk that does this better than you were going to say.” So, yeah, I think it’s worth lingering there a little bit. Tell us, how do we validate whether we got something worth saying and what might be some alternatives we should use instead?
Michael J. Gelb
Well, the key is to, then, marry what it is you think you have to say, what is your message, with an audience because, ultimately, the meaning of your communication is a function of the response you get from a given audience. So, who are you speaking to and why are you speaking to them? What is the purpose of your presentation? And I guide people before they give any kind of presentation.
And you’re right, it could be a staff meeting, it could be in an informal presentation, or it could be your big TED Talk, or a paid speech. Whatever it happens to be, I guide people to actually write down their objectives for each presentation in terms of, “What specifically do you want the audience to know? How do you want them to feel? And what do you want them to do as a result of your presentation?”
And the further guidance on the objectives, “know, feel, do” is, of course, to keep it simple, speaker. That’s my evolved version of KISS, the KISS principle, “Keep it simple, speaker.” So, simplify your message. Einstein said, “Things should be made as simple as possible, not simpler.” I call it optimal simplicity. Write down what do you want the audience to know, what do you want them to be able to remember.
So, for example, if this were a presentation on public speaking, one thing I want everybody on my presentation on public speaking to understand is, before your presentation, think about what you want the audience to know. Write it down. The second one is tricky. It’s how do you want them to feel. And this one is often lost in business presentations because we think it’s just about the facts or the ideas or the data, but people buy on emotion and they justify with fact.
So, it’s important to tune into the human quality in the interaction. It’s not just an exchange of data. If it was, you could just read it. It’s why we like live presentation with real human beings. It’s why people still, thank God, pay professional speakers to travel around the world and go give live speeches. You can watch what I say on video but people like it better when it’s spontaneous, real interaction, because of the emotional element. So, how do you want them to feel? And then, obviously, what do you want them to do?
Maybe it’s a sales presentation so you want them to buy something, for example. In a lot of staff meetings, maybe it’s just you want people to leave you alone, but you need to know specifically what’s your objective because when you know your message, when you know what you’re talking about, when you’ve done your homework, when you’ve done the preparation, you know who the audience is, you know what you want to tell them, you know why you want to tell it to them, how you want them to feel, what you want them to do as a result of the presentation, that organizes everything such that, well, one of my favorite sayings, “Everybody gets butterflies in the stomach before presenting,” but that’s how you get the butterflies to fly in formation.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, what do I want the audience to know, what do I want them to feel, and what do I want them to do. Can you give us an example of clear articulations of that? Because I think we can maybe be shallow, it’s like, “Oh, I want them to know my product is awesome, I want them to feel kind of excited about it, and I want them to buy it.” Is that detailed enough?
Michael J. Gelb
No. No.
Pete Mockaitis
Let’s hear it.
Michael J. Gelb
But you did a great imitation of a sort of generic, “Ooh, my product is awesome.” It would be good to have that degree of enthusiasm because one of the other huge points is people are always reading your energy, they’re reading your body language, they’re looking to see if there’s any discrepancy between what you’re saying, and your voice tonality, your facial expression, the way you look at them, your gestures. I call it body message synchrony, which is why it’s a really good idea to actually be aligned with and believe in whatever it is you are doing because it’s much easier to have that alignment happen naturally.
Pete Mockaitis
But to the point about synchrony, I think this evaluation that we’re doing, I agree that we’re doing it. I think, in my experience, I think we’re often doing it unconsciously or subconsciously and not so much, like, ticking the boxes with a close conscientious evaluation but rather you just get a vibe, like, “Eh, I’m kind of bored,” or, “Eh, there’s something a little off about this guy, and I don’t really care to dig in. And I don’t know if I trust him. I don’t think he would just straight up lie to me but something feels off here, and I’m just maybe going to tune out.”
Michael J. Gelb
Yes. Well, you’re exactly right. Most people just experience this without being aware of what it is specifically that is the discrepancy. Whereas, I can usually watch somebody and see what the discrepancy is. There’s an old Chinese saying, “Beware of the man whose belly does not move when he laughs.”
Pete Mockaitis
That is a creepy vibe, I will admit.
Michael J. Gelb
Yes, I’m good at that. But coming back to what you said earlier, so it’s not just good enough to say, “Well, gee, I want to tell them my product is awesome.” You probably want to think about what is your unique selling point, what is the specific advantage. Most importantly, what is the need that your product is going to meet that the audience actually has? And then, how can you help them feel that, oh, you’re here to help them?
I’m a big advocate of helping other people, that that’s how to have a successful happy life, that’s how to be a great presenter is, I’m genuinely interested. I want to help people. I’ve always made my living with that principle. There are plenty of people who find ways to make a living by doing other things, by focusing on pandering to people’s addictions and their fears and their anxieties. But if there’s an underlying ethical underpinning to how I teach presentation, it’s present something that will make the world a better place.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we were in the example of selling something for what the knowing, feeling, and doing. It sounds like in a shallow version versus a bit more detailed. Can you give us another common case situation and what a robust articulation of what I want my audience to know, feel, and do sounds like?
Michael J. Gelb
Well, I’m working on a presentation right now, so rather than just telling you about something from the past. I’m working on a presentation for next week, and it’s a five-day seminar. And I am actually going through the whole week each day what I want the audience to know, feel, and do. And then I’m attempting to simplify the whole thing, and this is another point, a takeaway for people, which is I’m going to tell them, right up front on Monday morning at 9:00 o’clock, what it is they’re going to get through the course of the whole five days.
And I’ve been working on a way to codify it in a simple as possible and as memorable as possible a fashion, and I’m going to actually have them do a physical movement that represents each of the five essential things I want them to get in the course of the week. I’m going to introduce that right at the beginning of the week. I’m going to be reinforcing those five points throughout the course of the week. And guess what the last thing we’re going to do is? We’re going to review it again.
So, I’m confident that people will actually, not only understand what I teach them, and this is another critical point for presenting, because it’s easy for people to understand what you’re saying but will they remember it? And if you really want to be a great presenter, you not only get through to people, and they go, “Oh, yeah. Oh, wow, that’s cool. Oh, I didn’t see it that way,” but they also remember it, ideally, for many years to come.
Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, that sounds swell. So, then, in your specific instance here with the five-day situation, could you give us your articulation of the knowing, feeling, and doing?
Michael J. Gelb
Well, it might take a little while because I have to explain to you, I’m teaching something that’s a little bit off the beaten path of everyday business discourse, and it may not immediately directly relate. This is a Tai Chi Qi Gong seminar.
Pete Mockaitis
We got a Tai Chi seminar, and what do I want them to know, what do I want them to feel, what do I want them to do?
Michael J. Gelb
Well, so I’m teaching something called the five animal frolics.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. It sounds like a good time.
Michael J. Gelb
It’s really cool. I’m going to start by asking people, “Do you like animals?” And they’re all going to say, “Yes.” I say, “Do you like to frolic?” And they’ll say, “Yes, we do.” And I say, “Well, you’ve come to the right place.” And actually, the truth is, because it’s not just a talk, it’s a seminar, there’s a very important element, which is that I’ve learned over years of practical experience, which is it’s always important to connect with the audience first before you try to influence them or get into what you want them to know, feel, and do.
What you want them to feel is comfortable and happy and filled with anticipation and excitement, and you want them to know that they came to the right place by paying money to sign up for your seminar or your presentation, whatever it happens to be. So, I came up with, I was just working on this today when I went for my walk, “What’s the perfect way to get people to feel comfortable, to open up and start to get to know each other, that fits in with the theme of the course? It’s the five animal frolics.”
So, the five animals are the bear, the crane, like the heron, the deer, the monkey, and the tiger. So, I’m going to put the five animals, and I’ve created fabulous graphics for this and images of all of them, and I have poetry associated with each one of them, and music, not to mention the actual movements from the ancient Chinese lineage.
But what I’m going to do is just put the five animals on the board and I’m going to say, “Rank choice voting, describe yourself in terms of these five animals which is most like you, which is second most like you, third, fourth. And then we’re going to talk to everybody and tell everybody, first, one-to-one, and then small groups, and then altogether, who you are in terms of your five-animal ranking of yourself.
So, it’s a disarming, fun, playful way that will engage people with the content of the course. Because what I want them to know at the end of the course is what are the energetic qualities of these five animals and how can you access them.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s what we want them to know. And what do we want them to feel?
Michael J. Gelb
Well, what I want them to feel, I actually want them to feel the quality of the bear, and to feel the quality of the crane, and to feel the quality of the deer, the monkey, and the tiger.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, this sounds like a fun time. I kind of want to be there.
Michael J. Gelb
Oh, it’s going to be awesome.
Pete Mockaitis
And I guess what they’ll do is just the actual bodily motions that you’re describing.
Michael J. Gelb
What I want them to do though is actually practice it. I’m not trying to sell them something. I’m not trying to do this so that they’ll buy something from me or hire me. I just want to give them the best possible experience, but part of what will be the measure of that is people will actually practice the five animals. And a lot of these people are advanced Tai Chi practitioners, so I have another thought in mind for them in terms of what I want them to do, which is to see how the animals play into their Tai Chi form and how it can empower the practice of their Tai Chi form.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Beautiful. All right. So, there we go, knowing, feeling, doing in that context. There we go. Well, so there’s so much good stuff in the book. I’m curious to hear a bit about the mind maps helping us communicate better. I am not much of a mind mapper myself, so, please enlighten me.
Michael J. Gelb
Well, it’s just a whole brain way to generate your ideas for any presentation. And, most importantly, for many people, it helps you remember what you’re going to say. So, it’s one thing to creatively generate it using keywords and images. That’s the essence of a mind map, is you’re expressing your ideas in images and keywords, and you’re generating the ideas first before you organize them. So, initially, it’s kind of messy because most people slow themselves down and limit their creativity because they try to organize their ideas before they generate them.
So, somebody sitting down to give a presentation will say, “Oh, what should I do, say, first?” That’s not the way to start. Don’t worry about what to do first. Just what might you say? Who’s there? What do you know about this? What’s the topic? What stories do you have? So, just put it all out in a non-linear fashion to start with. Then the coolest thing happens when you do it first in this creative free-flowing non-linear way. You step back and then you say, “What would be a good order to present this in?” And it just becomes apparent. It organizes itself.
Then you redo your mind map so it’s in clockwise rotation, and then you make an image and a keyword to go with each branch of the map. And images and keywords are way easier to remember than outlines or paragraphs or sentences.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, it’s funny, as I was imagining, “Hey, I want to say a bunch of stuff.” So, one, I have poor handwriting and drawing skills, and type fast, so I tend to jump, which is lean digital in a lot of ways here. So, when you talked about just putting all the things out there in their natural organization, I was imagining using my shortcuts to move it up a line, down a line, but what you said toward the end is that, “Okay, we got the sequence of things.” But in having a circle rotation with the keyword and image, we have engaged the brain in such a way that it’s easier to remember the sequence of things we’re going to say.
Michael J. Gelb
That is correct.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s cool. And so, I heard a tip, to rotate your portrait landscape piece of paper, landscape over your mind map.
Michael J. Gelb
Oh, landscape. So, mind map, the classical way to do it, which I still do myself and I recommend to all my students, is landscape not portrait because it’s easier to spread out and go in different directions. Start with an image in the center even if you think you can’t draw because it will engage the imaginative pictorial part of your mind. And then print keywords and other images as they arise, put them on lines. The reason to print them is so you can read your own writing because when you start to really get into this, the images and ideas start to flow, and it’s easy for it to get so messy that you can’t read it
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. All right. So, we got a real thing to say, we got clarity on what I want the audience to know, feel, and do, we’ve got it nicely mind-mapped, so we’ve got a masterplan, and we’re not going to forget it. So, I’d love to get your perspective in terms of when you’re actually up in there with the audience, what are some of the best ways to really establish a connection so that you’re vibing together real time?
Michael J. Gelb
Yes. Well, it’s to genuinely care about your audience and care about your message. People sense if you’re genuine. So, that’s one really fundamental element. The other is to put in your time to prepare, to rehearse. A lot of people just go out and try to give their presentation for the first time in front of a live audience, so you’re not used to saying the words, you’re not used to telling the stories.
So, you met my wife, Debra, before, and whenever I’m getting ready to do a presentation, I give it to her multiple times. I tell her, “Wait.” We just went for a walk. I actually gave her the five-animal frolics presentation so that I can practice what it’s like to just say this to another person so it’s not happening for the first time.
And if you rehearse, your rehearsal is the time to make lots of mistakes and to anticipate the needs of the audience in terms of potentially awkward questions you might get. Whereas, if the first time you ever get the awkward question is live in front of the audience, it might throw you off. Now, having said that, there’s a lot of suggestions in the book, in Mastering the Art of Public Speaking on how to get your system aligned so that you won’t freak out if something unexpected happens but you have to practice those before you get up there, too.
If you’re not practicing the things that are in the book, and somebody blindsides you or just ask something that’s challenging, or difficult, or that you didn’t expect, or that you just don’t know, we’ve all seen people get embarrassed and have very difficult experiences, which is why public speaking is the number one fear of the American public.
Pete Mockaitis
And so, what is the procedure by which you prep for the unexpected? One thing that I’ve found does loads for my own confidence is just imagining worst-case scenarios and questions from hell that I really don’t want to get, and then just preparing for all those. And then I just feel like I can’t think of anything that was not going to work, so it’s like, “Oh, what if they don’t have…?”
I remember when I did a lot more keynotes, I would have a Mac, and I just love the look of terror in their eyes, like, when they would say, “Do you have the adaptor?” I was like, “Yes, I have the adaptor.”
Michael J. Gelb
I always make them bring their own computer, I say, “You provide the computer, you set it up. I will send you everything way in advance. You get it set up. I’ll come in the night before. I’ll go over the whole thing.”
Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. That’s good. I found that they have a hard time with my custom fonts, and then they’re like, “I can’t make them go,” or, “I have a different version of PowerPoint or Keynote, and then it didn’t translate.” It’s like they’re not up to it, they’re not up to the task of getting it on their computers successfully.
Michael J. Gelb
Well, speaking of computers and preparation rehearsal, I got to tell you, here’s another very recent real-life story about why it’s so important. So, a couple months ago, I was invited to speak at a conference in Trinidad, sponsored by the biggest company in Trinidad and their business school. And they also invited the co-author of my book The Healing Organization, Professor Raj Sisodia.
So, Raj was supposed to speak and I was supposed to speak on the same day. So, I said to Raj, “Let’s make sure we get there the afternoon before, and just go through our presentations together because I want to make sure that they’ve got it working,” and, as you know, the fonts sometimes come out differently because of their system or what, so you want to go through it, make sure the clicker works, check the light. You check everything well beforehand so you can make changes if you need to.
So, it turns out that they had basically said to Raj, “We want you to speak about The Healing Organization,” that’s the name of our book, and they said to me, “We want you to speak about The Healing Organization.” So, Raj and I had prepared pretty much the same presentation almost with the same slides. So, if we hadn’t met and reviewed this, now the truth is I would’ve been able to improvise. If he went first, and I suddenly saw he had done everything that I was going to do, I can improvise, this is a professional thing, is don’t be dependent on anything. If the audio/visuals fail, if your PowerPoint doesn’t work, you’re ready to rock and roll no matter what.
So, sure enough, we see we have the same slides, we were going to do a lot of the stuff in the same order, so, obviously, I said to Raj, “Let’s change this up. What would you most like to do about this?” So, he said what he wanted to do. I said, “Okay, you go first and do all that in the morning, and then, at the end of the day…” So, we changed places, we had to get the staff to buy into sending out a message explaining that they were changing the order of the speakers at the last moment.
We got them to buy in. And then Raj went first, he gave his presentation, I re-ordered all my slides, I referred back to how he started the day. That’s another thing when you’re presenting with other people. You always make them look good. You always highlight the brilliance of what they said. You share it again because we have a much happier, more beautiful world, plus Raj happens to be an incredibly brilliant guy, so it was easy for me to do that.
And then the audience goes, “Oh, yeah, I remember that this morning.” And so, they’re getting more depth of connection with what he said, and then I’m using that as a launching point for the next point that I want to tell them. And one of the things I wanted them to do is invite us back, which they already have.
Pete Mockaitis
There you go. Success.
Michael J. Gelb
Yeah.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, tell me, Michael, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?
Michael J. Gelb
Anything you want to know, it’s about you and the audience. I’m here to share anything you might want to know.
Pete Mockaitis
I guess, tell us, do you have any super tricks for overcoming the fear?
Michael J. Gelb
Yeah, the two most important ones, one is to actually be prepared and know what you’re talking about and know what your objectives are. When you know why you’re doing something and you have stories to tell, almost everybody speaks naturally and freely and openly. They don’t say uhm and ahh and you know if they’re telling a story. So, figure out what your story is, why you’re telling it, that will help tremendously.
The other thing is why do I teach all this Tai Chi and Qi Gong and Alexander technique, because your physical presence and your energy on the stage makes a huge difference to the audience but also to you. So, if you have done a preparatory energy-harmonizing practice, and there are lots of them in the book, the most effective ones that I have learned in 50 years of being a professional speaker, they’re in the book.
So, if you do any, find which ones works best for you. I try to give people options. One of the simplest ones, because you’re nervous, you’re anxious, the adrenaline is starting to flow, just do some exercise, do jumping jacks, just do some shadow boxing, do something that gets your energy moving rather than just sitting there, as people do, waiting for their turn to speak. It’s like waiting to go to the gallows for a lot of people.
So, their body, their energy is stuck. It’s the fear pattern of stress, and, “What happens if this goes wrong?” and all the adrenaline. And then they’re getting cotton mouth, and they feel like they’re having trouble breathing. I’m laughing only because it’s so easy to solve this. Don’t sit there and stew in your own stress hormones. Get up and move. And then I give all kinds of options. The most sophisticated, which comes from the Alexander technique and Tai Chi and Qi Gong.
Pete Mockaitis
And can you give us a tidbit from the Alexander technique?
Michael J. Gelb
Sure. So, Alexander was a professional presenter. He was a Shakespearean actor. And he probably was losing this voice in the middle of presentations, so he came up with a methodology to free himself from this pattern, became famous on the stage, and, ultimately, became even more famous for teaching this method to other actors and singers. It’s still taught today at The Juilliard School and the Royal Academy of Drama, the Royal Academy of Music. It’s like a trade secret of the theatrical profession.
And the simplest practice from the Alexander technique is to, you can do this, you can just stand in front of a mirror, and be as upright as you can be, and smile, and then let go of everything you don’t need to stand there, and stay standing.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Lovely. All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?
Michael J. Gelb
One of my favorite quotes is from the young Leonardo da Vinci who said, “I wish to work miracles.”
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?
Michael J. Gelb
I tell you, my favorite study related to presenting is a study that was done with inmates at Rahway State Prison, and they asked muggers in the prison to look at videos of people walking down the street, and say who they would mug. And the muggers said that they would mug anybody who looked out of it, who wasn’t paying attention, who looked weak, they would attack.
Interestingly, anybody who looked kind of arrogant, they wanted to attack. People who looked balanced, poised, and present, the muggers said, “I just wouldn’t bother that person. There are too many easier targets.” And the lesson is when you walk on stage, don’t be mug-able.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Good lesson. And so, it didn’t have anything to do with them looking rich, like, “Ooh, they got the expensive sneakers, or they…”?
Michael J. Gelb
Well, the thing is if you’re rich and you’re not paying attention…
Pete Mockaitis
Double whammy, okay.
Michael J. Gelb
Right.
Pete Mockaitis
I got you. And a favorite book?
Michael J. Gelb
Favorite book. Well, there are lots of them but my seminal book that inspired me was, Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl.
Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?
Michael J. Gelb
Oh, my favorite tool is the juggling ball.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, do you squeeze it or what do you do with it when you’re just working?
Michael J. Gelb
Well, juggle it, and then I also, see, I juggle them. I have them everywhere. See, I have this one. Can you see what it says on it?
Pete Mockaitis
IBM.
Michael J. Gelb
Because I taught a thousand IBM engineers how to juggle.
Pete Mockaitis
Oh, cool.
Michael J. Gelb
And so, I kept my IBM juggling ball. I have all sorts of corporate juggling balls all over my office. But actually, I juggle them as well as using them as wrist flexibility and strengthening gadgets.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?
Michael J. Gelb
Favorite habit. Well, I suppose this is a habit, is walking. I go for a walk. Walking, obviously, I walked into my office to talk to you, but I made it pretty much, we could call it a ritual, maybe a habit to go for a walk in the beautiful around the ponds and through the trees. I’ve done two so far today. I may do one more, possibly two.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?
Michael J. Gelb
Well, what people quote back to me most often is that it’s really because they’ve read How to Think Like Leonardo da Vinci, which is my most well-known book, is that they quote back to me, and say, “Da Vinci was always my inspiration, and thank you for bringing him to life for me.”
Pete Mockaitis
Oh, lovely. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?
Michael J. Gelb
MichaelGelb.com. G-E-L-B, MichaelGelb.com.
Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?
Michael J. Gelb
The call to action and the final thought is take every opportunity to present. You have to practice. So, think of yourself as a professional presenter. Even if you’re not going to do it for money, eventually, you’re going to keep your job, I think it’s actually the number one thing you can do beyond your technical expertise to strengthen your long-term career prospects and be awesome at your job.
Because if somebody else is technically competent, and you’re technically competent, the person who’s better able to speak to people and get a powerful message across is the one who’s going to be that much more awesome at their job, and have that much greater career prospect.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. Michael, thank you. This has been a treat. I wish you much luck and fun amidst your animal frolicking.
Michael J. Gelb
Thanks so much. My pleasure.
Anh Dao Pham shares pro tips on developing the most underrated skill that makes a world of difference: note-taking.
You’ll Learn:
- Why note-taking is a powerful differentiator
- The four-hour investment that ends up saving hundreds of hours
- How to synthesize your notes for maximum impact
About Anh
Anh Dao Pham, VP of Product & Program Management at Edmunds.com, has successfully led technical projects for two decades at start-ups and major corporations. In her book Glue: How Project Leaders Create Cohesive, Engaged, High-Performing Teams, Anh vividly brings compassionate, positive, nimble leadership to life, demonstrating with actionable guidance, the power of caring and connection to inspire outstanding results.
Anh lives with her husband and two children in Los Angeles, California.
- Book: Glue: How Project Leaders Create Cohesive, Engaged, High-Performing Teams
- Website: GlueLeaders.com
Resources Mentioned
- Book: Be Water, My Friend: The Teachings of Bruce Lee by Shannon Lee
- Book: On Writing: A Memoir Of The Craft (A Memoir of the Craft) by Stephen King
- Book: On Writing Well: The Classic Guide to Writing Nonfiction by William Zinsser
- TED Talk: Derek Sivers: How to start a movement
Anh Dao Pham Interview Transcript
Pete Mockaitis
Anh, welcome back to How to be Awesome at Your Job.
Anh Dao Pham
Thank you so much for having me back, Pete.
Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to chat, and I think this may be the shortest follow-up interview we’ve ever had with a guest because you teased note-taking. I asked, listeners said, “Yes, yes, yes” numerous times, so we’re back, we’re talking note-taking, and I’m excited.
Anh Dao Pham
I’m excited, too. I’m always thrilled when people tell me they’re excited about note-taking because I always feel like I’m such a geek when I talk about it, but it is such an important skill so I’m so delighted that some of your listeners were interested in this topic, and I’m hoping that we give them what they want.
Pete Mockaitis
Oh, me, too. And I thought we might start with, I know you use jingles to celebrate and commemorate things, any recent jingles that have tickled you and/or your teammates?
Anh Dao Pham
I haven’t written a jingle recently but I did write a very short “Roses are red, violets are blue” for you here.
Pete Mockaitis
Oh, boy.
Anh Dao Pham
Just two, just so that…a couple here. First,
“Roses are red, violets are blue
Hello there, Pete,
I’m happy to see you.”
I thought it was nice for us to be together again, so thank you for that. And then the second for your note-taking crew,
“Roses are red, violets are blue
note-taking is awesome
And so are you.”
So, hopefully, everybody gets excited at this point about note-taking.
Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. And heartwarming. All right. Okay, Anh, you mentioned in the last conversation that note-taking is your superpower. Can you tell us what’s super about it and why should professionals spend time working on this skill?
Anh Dao Pham
Well, note-taking has a ton of advantages. I feel like it’s one of the most underrated skills that we just don’t ever think about investing in. And, for me, it’s been so important to my career that I’d call it the cornerstone of my career. It’s like that one skill that, whenever I talk to people, I say, “You really have to think about note-taking,” and they’re always like, “Yeah, yeah, Anh, that sounds great but I may be not that interested.” But, to me, there’s really a few different benefits.
The first is people’s perception of you, and this is something that I don’t think people think about, but if you’ve, in particular, been in any sort of leadership position where you’re facilitating a meeting or having a discussion with people, and they see you taking notes and you’re typing, and you type slowly, their perception of you is not that you’re necessarily the smartest person.
And this is something that I feel like goes unspoken, but if you watch somebody typing, and they’re like pecking at the keyboard, you might perceive that they’re not as intelligent as they actually are. And that’s, I don’t think, an accurate representation in any way but it does affect people’s perception, in particular, if you’re facilitating a meeting and you’re taking notes slowly, and you’re slowing down the entire meeting.
Their perception of you is not that great. And so, I think mastering good note-taking is important just to make sure that people have a certain amount of respect for you when you’re doing your job if you’re taking notes.
The second is, at least for me, note-taking has been something that’s really made my learning process efficient. So, one of the things that I do, I do religiously in all of my meetings, is take notes. Whether or not I’m going to publish them or not, I take notes. And, for me, it just crystallizes my learning on things so it’s a part of my learning process.
And I started taking notes when I was in college. I was a math major and I was pretty lazy in summary cards. You don’t think of mathematicians as lazy but we kind of are. We’re looking for the most efficient way to do things, or maybe we’re advocates of efficiency is a better way to put it. But I was also a very slow reader. I just couldn’t go through textbooks. And anytime I was studying for a course and you had to read multiple chapters in the textbook, I just couldn’t get through that material.
And I had stumbled upon an article about note-taking, and they said, basically, if you take notes in some sort of structured format, then it improves your recall ability dramatically. And so, what I did was I just started taking notes in outline format, which is like a really traditional way to do it, in all of my lectures, and it was so effective when I was in college that I actually stopped buying the textbooks, like I didn’t read them.
Pete Mockaitis
Oh, there you go.
Anh Dao Pham
Yeah, I went to lectures, I took good notes, and then I reviewed the notes, and most of the time, the professors would cover the material that was needed from the textbook in their lectures. And so, if I took good notes, I didn’t actually need to purchase the textbook anymore. So, after a couple of quarters, I just stopped altogether, so it saved me a ton of money, and I did well in those courses. I did pretty well.
I was at UCLA, and I got a pretty decent GPA coming out of college. So, it was really, really effective for me and has, to this day, been one of the reasons why people often compliment me on my memory. They’re always like, “You have such a great memory.” It’s like, “No, actually, I just spend a lot of time processing the information through note-taking, and that crystallizes my learning in a way that I feel like other people who were not participating as much, will have that as an advantage.”
Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And in your book Glue, on the chapter about note-taking, you mentioned that when you are consistently taking notes and sending them out, you’re really effectively cementing the impression of being a subject matter expert to those that you’re sending the notes to. Can you tell us about that?
Anh Dao Pham
That’s right. Absolutely. I see note-taking as a way to actually get informal power, and so I tell people that information is power. And when you capture information and you send it out and distribute it, you start to become seen as a subject matter expert on the information that you’re putting out there. There’s a misconception that you capture information and some people will capture information and hoard it as a source of power, but to me it’s actually the opposite.
If you think about, let’s say, reputable newspapers or content sites, the reason that people see them as an expert is because they put their content out there. And then when people think of a topic or a question, they know where to go for that information, and note-taking happens in the same way. So, if you’re the person who consistently is taking notes and then sending them out, and they’re good notes, then the people will start to see you as that person who knew this information, publishes information, and a place that they can go to get the information.
And that shifts the dynamic from somebody who’s just sort of a bystander in a meeting to somebody who actually holds information and is somebody who has a certain amount of power and influence in the situation.
Pete Mockaitis
Well, now my brain is going to Bob Cialdini who endorsed your book. Kudos.
Anh Dao Pham
He’s amazing.
Pete Mockaitis
He’s one of my favorites. We were delighted to have him on the show when we finally got him. So, anyways, I’m thinking about the tools or principles of influence – reciprocity. I’m just thinking about how many times folks have been able to miss meetings either because they just want to save some time, or they really had some other obligations going on, and they were able to look to your notes to really save the day.
And so, I’m thinking, over your career, you’ve done that for many people many times, and I would hope that that gives you a little bit of sway when it’s time for you to ask for some help or some favors or some assistance.
Anh Dao Pham
Yeah, I would agree with that a hundred percent. The principle of reciprocity, I cannot even say that word, reciprocity is another thing that I talk about in the book, and also think a lot about in my career. And the interesting thing about that principle is that it’s not about giving something to get in that specific moment. It’s about establishing a pattern of giving and giving that benefit to other people so that at the time that you go to them at a later date, they actually are able to reciprocate and to provide something back to you because they’ve had that good feeling from you if you’re giving them something.
And I get this all the time, “Oh, I miss the meeting. Thank you so much for the recap. I was able to catch up.” In fact, oftentimes, the notes are way more efficient than being in the meeting. In particular, if you don’t need to be an active participant in the meeting to have the discussion but you need to understand what the outcome is, the notes are tremendously helpful.
I’ve had times before where, as an example most recently, one of our legal team members was asked a question, and he was searching through all of his documentation for anything about a particular discussion, and he said, “The most helpful information I found was actually from this recap that Anh took.” And I went back and looked at the notes, I was like, “I don’t remember this discussion at all. I’m so glad that we wrote it all down.”
And office settings often, in particular when you’re moving very fast, there isn’t a lot of things, there aren’t a lot of people who actually document things. And so, when you start doing that, it becomes often the system of record for whatever the discussion was that happened, and it helps all the people thereafter, either in the moment because they missed it, in some sort of a reminder capacity, like, “I can’t remember exactly what we talked about. I remember we covered this at some point.” Or, even very much later, like through this legal inquiry, some indicator of what was actually discussed and why we did it.
Pete Mockaitis
That’s beautiful. Well, shifting gears now into the how, you mentioned that in some ways, just your sheer typing speed is foundational. Can you speak to that?
Anh Dao Pham
Yes, typing speed is extremely important. Actually, out there, there are studies that talk about note-taking and how taking notes with a pen and pencil is actually more effective in terms of your ability to remember things. I actually believe that that’s kind of bunk but there are studies about that. I think the active, actually, taking information and then participating in it, that actually crystallizes things.
If you’re in an office setting, I would argue that typing is the equivalent of doing that pen and paper activity as long as you’re actually participating. But in order to be able to participate, you can’t be slowed down by your own skill to capture the information, so typing speed is extremely important. And I always tell people, if I notice them not typing as fast as I think that they can, to spend some time investing in themselves in that typing speed.
We always have people complain about how they don’t have enough time in their day, and if you spend a lot of time actually responding to emails or reading things or writing memos, this is a place where you can actually improve your efficiency significantly, and it doesn’t actually take that much investment. When I actually started typing, I was in high school, actually my transition from high school to college, and I attempted to go and get a job at a temp agency.
And at the time, I think I was around 18 or so. I got tested for my typing speed, and I came in at something like 40 words per minute. I’d never actually put in a concerted effort to improve my typing speed. And the people who were helping with the hiring said frankly to me, “Hey, this is just not going to cut it. Nobody is going to hire you for a temp position if you don’t get this typing speed up.”
And at the time I went home, and I happen to find a really old spiral-bound typing speed book that my mom had used when she was younger. And I picked it up, and I did a handful of drills, and I think I spent maybe three or four hours or so just doing a handful of drills. And then a couple days later, I went back and took the test again, and my typing speed was up to 60 words per minute.
So, it wasn’t actually that big of an investment. And if you think, if you currently type 45 words per minute and you can increase your typing speed to 60 words per minute, that’s like a pretty significant improvement in your efficiency, and it doesn’t take that much to invest in yourself to get that typing speed up. So, I feel like everybody should take a moment to do that if they haven’t already.
It’s funny, because when I say this or when people read the book, they’re like, “I went and tested myself, like right after I read that chapter.” And they’re always reporting their typing speed to me, I was like, “Great. Great. Do that.”
Pete Mockaitis
“Thank you.” You’ve seen a lot of these unsolicited reports. Well, you’re bringing some fond memories back. I remember I found a transcriptionist and he was so gung-ho. I think it was in one of those contractor platforms, like Fiverr or Upwork or something, and he said, “I’ve already started on it, and you can see.” And then he showed the Google Document which he was transcribing quickly, I was like, “Okay, there you go. That’s impressive.”
As well as he had a video in his portfolio, he was like, “Look at me on TypeRacer.com,” which is a website I’ve been to, to see, “Sure enough, you can type very fast.” And that’s impressive, and not just when you’re hiring a transcriptionist but for any number of roles. And I think there was an episode of “The Apprentice” back in the day.
I think maybe Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, why I remember this, maybe because it left an impression. He was typing so slowly, I was shocked.
Anh Dao Pham
And didn’t it affect your perception of him?
Pete Mockaitis
Well, it did, and I already knew, like he’s a fraudster criminal, and it made it worse, and he can’t type fast. So, it makes an impression. I just want to mention, so right now, AI is so hot right now, and the ability for automated transcription to occur. What are your thoughts on that? Does that make it less important to be able to type quickly?
Anh Dao Pham
No, I think that, at the end of the day, typing is a way of processing information, so it depends on what you’re trying to use it for. Like, as an example, if you’re going to transcribe a podcast and you’re putting it out there because you want the content out there, then I think there’s absolutely no harm in doing some sort of automated transcription. You’re not actually trying to learn the material or do something with it. You’re just trying to make it available.
But, for me, the main reason I like to do note-taking or that I practice it religiously is because it does help me learn. And so, if you’re taking advantage of a tool to do that work for you, you actually lose out on the benefit of processing the information. When I think about typing and taking notes, the reason that it helps improve your memory is that you’re processing information multiple ways.
So, let’s say you’re in a meeting and you’re taking good notes, you’re listening to the information that’s coming in, and then you’re participating in the meeting, so, obviously, you’re likely there because you have some role to play. So, you’re participating in having some discussion, that’s like two ways, “I’m listening. I’m talking.” That’s another way to process the information.
And then if I actually write it down, I’m processing it a third way. So, all in the span of a one-hour meeting, I’ve now triple-processed the information. And it’s not just about writing the information down, but if you actually take the time to reorganize the information or write it in your own words, then you’re processing it another time. So, you’re like taking in the information and then outputting it in a way that is in your own words so that you can confirm that understanding.
So, all in that span of time, if you’re using your fast note-taking abilities and processing all this information, that information is going to get crystallized in your brain in a way that other people who are just listening or just speaking and not taking in all those different activities at the same time are not going to have to their advantage. So, that’s why you’ll come out of the meeting and learn this information so much more quickly.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, let’s say we have invested just a few hours in our typing speed, and it’s gone way up. Cool. Tremendous return on investment there. So, then let’s zoom in. We’re in an actual meeting, we’ve got our laptop, and our fast typing skills. I’m wondering if folks, right from the get-go, are thinking, “Is this even appropriate for me to whip out the laptop and be clanking away? Is this something that’s going to be distracting, annoying? Is this just more for junior people?” Can you talk to us about any resistance folks might have in the moment?
Anh Dao Pham
It’s really funny because I used to work in a startup called Opower, and at the time, I was the first person there who was a program manager. I was director of program management, and I was in charge of hiring other people for my team. And when I put out the job description, we put out an exercise. And in the exercise, it was just a handful of questions that the job applicants had to answer in advance. And one of the questions I’d put on there was, “How fast do you type?”
And the funniest thing about that question was it was the most controversial and telling question on the pre-application. Some people would write back, and the answers were so funny.
Pete Mockaitis
“It shouldn’t matter how fast I type.”
Anh Dao Pham
Exactly. Like, we did. We actually got responses like that, like, “This is not an admin job” was one of the responses, or, “I’m a hunt and pecker,” which was so funny to respond that way, but people were actually offended about this question, that they felt like it was beneath them. And, to me, that’s really telling when it’s like you should have the humility to do this work if it needs to be done on your project. So, if you’re thinking you’re above that, in any job, in anything that makes you better at your job, you should be willing and want to do.
And so, I feel like if there’s an ego there about it, you’re just shooting yourself on the foot by not taking advantage of this particular skill or this opportunity to do that. But I do see resistance because there is a certain amount of ego with it. Now, I would say, though, that most of the time the ego is coupled with a lack of skill. So, it’s like, “Why would you push back on it if you could do it?” It just seems like an odd combination. So, we do see some of that resistance.
Now, in the scope of actual meetings, and I come from a project management background but now I also do product management work, and I’m on the executive team, and I still go into meetings and take notes. And you would think, like, “Hey, as Anh moves up in her career, she’s going to do this less.” It’s like, no, actually, I’m not because, again, I think it becomes a very valuable resource, it’s important for my learning process, and people really appreciate it. So, why wouldn’t I continue to do that?
And people have come to know that I do this. They will rely on this skill, sometimes maybe too much, but they’ll rely on this skill, and this is something they can count on with me if they’re not able to attend a meeting, it’s like, “Hey, are you attending? Could you share your notes with me?” That’s like a huge benefit for them and it’s something that I think I’m always going to do.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s good. And no one has ever said, “Hey, cut it out,” or looked annoyed, like, “Ugh, your keyboard noise is such a distraction and annoying us, Anh.”
Anh Dao Pham
No, actually. And I do have long nails so I do clank a little bit on the keyboard. Now, if I’m in a meeting or on a Zoom or something, and you can hear the clanking, then I’ll mute myself so that it doesn’t happen. The only thing I would say is if you’re maybe on a one-on-one situation, and you’re sitting there, staring at your computer while you’re taking notes, or you’re concentrating so much on that, that’s not a great situation.
Some of those smaller form meetings, you might want to pay more attention to the conversation, or you might at least give a prerequisite or preamble before you actually start taking notes, like, “Hey, I’m going to be taking notes, but the reason I’m taking notes is because I’m listening to you so intently, and I want to make sure that I’m capturing this information.”
So, you can give that up front so that people know that that’s important to you for the purposes of this meeting. I’ve actually participated in interviews with companies before where the interviewer, it was just me and him, and he said, “Hey, this is a part of my process, so just know when I’m staring intently into the camera, I’m taking notes and it’s not you. It’s because I’m really trying to listen and make sure that I captured everything.”
So, I think you can phrase it in such a way, with whoever you’re meeting with, to let them know that this is an important part of the process, and that’s why you’re doing it, and that should cut out any hesitation for you taking on that task.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we got the typing speed up, hesitations are behind us, we’re in the moment, what do we actually do?
Anh Dao Pham
So, there’s a couple phases in the book I break this down on note-taking. In the very beginning of a project, oftentimes, you’ll start a project and not actually know what’s going on. And so, if you’re in a meeting and you’re trying to facilitate and you’re trying to take notes, sometimes that’s very difficult. And so, I call this phase the fake-it-till-you-make-it phase.
And the idea here is you’re listening intently, you’re asking questions when you don’t understand things, but you’re trying not to slow down the discussion or the meeting. And so, one thing you can do is if there are things that you really need clarification on, you can sort of jot them down. Sometimes I’ll create my own private note section, like, “Note to myself: Ask about this later because I don’t want to slow this down.”
But in the span of the meeting, what you want to do is try to capture the most salient points, the most important things, and there’s really only a couple of categories. One is, “What are the key decisions that are being made?” And then, two is, “Are there any sort of follow-up items or action items? And who’s going to be responsible for those?”
And in a meeting where you don’t exactly know what’s going on, and sometimes maybe they’re even using jargon that you don’t fully understand, the most important thing is to write down accurately what is being stated. And if you’re unsure, you can always prompt somebody, like, “Hey, I heard this word. It sounds like a decision was made. Is that true? If so, can somebody just restate the decision for clarity?”
And when you do that, it actually helps the meeting because, oftentimes, people will say, “Okay, great.” They’ll have a discussion and they’ll seem to have come to some sort of consensus, and then they’ll move on, but nobody actually stated the decision at the very end. And sometimes when you do that, and prompt, like, “Hey, I heard a decision or I think we made a decision. Can somebody state that?” It will actually clarify that maybe something was missed or maybe somebody had a slightly different understanding of the decision, so you’re actually helping the process by asking that question.
And then once it gets stated in a clear enough way, you can say, “Okay, so I heard this is the decision,” state the decision, and then write it down. So, you’re sort of capturing the most important things. And that, to me, is sort of the fake-it-till-you-make-it stage. And if there is jargon that is being used in that state where you don’t fully understand what they’re saying, you just make sure to repeat back, “This is what I heard you say. Is that right?” And then write that down in the way that they said it.
It’s not as important in this phase that you understand the notes as it is that the people who are in the meeting understand the notes and what’s next. And so, there you just want to capture exactly what they said, and a note to yourself to learn and understand it later. And then you can follow up with the person, ask those questions to make sure that you fully understand what you’re sending out. Don’t send out things that you don’t understand. Capture them and then make sure you understand them before you send it out because that’s how you’re going to get the benefit, ultimately.
So, that, to me, is like really the first phase. And then, over time, what you want to do is sort of graduate to a more, I’d say, mature note-taking phase where you’re then sort of going through the process, participating in the meeting, and then taking notes but organizing the information as you’re going along. And when we talk about note-taking, people ask me all the time, like, “Well, what’s the secret?” I was like, “Well, I don’t just take notes. I’m actually participating and then I’m summarizing the information in my own words.” And there’s a lot of benefits to that.
The first is really that when people speak, it doesn’t always make for good notes. If you capture everything verbatim, there’s uhms and ahhs, there’s pauses, there’s twists and turns, they might repeat themselves five times. It doesn’t make sense for you to write everything that everybody is saying. What you want to do is capture what the point of that discussion was. So, take a moment to sort of rephrase it for yourself in the most concise way, and then type that down.
And then, as you’re going through the meeting, you’re participating. And if you have read my book Glue, there’s actually two chapters next to each other. It’s the note-taking chapter, and then the next chapter is about synthesis. And I think, when you’re doing really successful note-taking or good note-taking, you’re actually practicing both skills at the same time. And so, note-taking is sort of the act of writing down the information and organizing it, but how do you actually organize the information? And there’s a few different ways to do it, through different techniques of synthesis.
And the simplest way of synthesis is to actually just try to sequence things. So, if somebody’s describing a process or a plan to do something, you’re kind of like sitting there and trying to write these things down in order. So, as people are talking through it, it’s like, “Okay, we needed to do step one.” “Okay, great. I captured that.” Then, suddenly, they’re talking about step two, and then it’s like, “Oh, well, actually, there’s something that needs to happen before that.” So, then you sort of reorganize that information and sequence it in a way.
Think of it as like I talk to my mom about recipes that she cooks for Vietnamese food, and sometimes she gives those steps in all different orders. Like, she doesn’t have anything written down because a lot of Asian cooks don’t. They don’t have recipes. They just kind of feel their way through. And when she conveys the information to me for how to cook something, I step back and go, “Okay, I heard you said this, this, and this,” and I’m like writing those down as if they were instructions that I could follow later. And that is a way to sort of synthesize the information.
So, when you’re taking good notes, you’re doing that. You’re not sort of just capturing anything as it comes along because then your steps may not be all out of order. You’re actually synthesizing them into something that’s useful and structured. And that, to me, is sometimes hard to do, but if you practice it over time, you get really good at it.
And when you’re doing it as well, it also helps you identify if there are gaps. So, in the book, I give an example about cooking chicken pho. It’s a recipe, and my mom’s giving me these instructions, and she says, like, “Hey, you’ve got these vegetables, you need to chop them up. And then you need to do X, Y, and Z.” And at the end, after I write it all down, I realize, “I didn’t do anything with these vegetables that I chopped up. What do I do with them?”
But if I didn’t sequence the information out, I wouldn’t necessarily realize that the vegetables didn’t go anywhere. And so then, it’s like, “Hey, mom, I missed the vegetables. Where do they go?” It’s like, “Okay, well, you add them at this point in time.” It’s like, “Okay, let me slot that in where it needs to happen.” And so, that active synthesis really helps you make sure that you fully understand the information.
So, when you’re capturing the information and then, ultimately, sending out, that it’s like 100% accurate, and you’ve helped identify potentially gaps in the information that you’ve plugged in as a part of that discussion.
Pete Mockaitis
So, sequence is fantastic in terms of, “How do I do this thing?” and in the course of a meeting, we say, “Oh, we should do this.” “Oh, but first I guess we got to do that.” “Oh, but that’s really going be contingent on this.” And so then, that really is super value added in terms of we had a jumble of discussion, and then what’s coming out the other side is, “Oh, here are the six steps. One, two, three, four, five, six. You made it look easy, Anh. Cool.”
So, that’s one style or approach of synthesis is sequence, chronology. Are there any other key frameworks or schemas that are handy when it comes to synthesizing?
Anh Dao Pham
Yeah, another active synthesis that I describe in the book is I call it inference. And so, this is like a really simple technique where you try to collect multiple pieces of information, and then you try to extrapolate another piece of information out of that. So, one of the mistakes that you’ll make maybe early on when you’re even participating in meetings, regardless of whether or not you’re taking notes, is you just take statements at face value.
So, it’s like, “Anh’s going to go on vacation this week. Pete has Anh scheduled for a podcast this week.” Those are two pieces of information. Now, if you’re not thinking about them, you just write those two pieces of information down, but if you’re thinking about them, you realize, “Anh’s on vacation this week, and Pete’s got a podcast. Well, Anh’s not going to make that podcast and we need to reschedule it.” There’s an extrapolation that happens.
And sometime those seems super obvious but, when you’re in a meeting, and when you’re in a lot of meetings throughout the day, oftentimes people are only participating and thinking about their one piece of it. So, I might only think about my thing, you might only think about your thing, and nobody’s connecting the two dots together.
And so, the act of inferences take those pieces of information, and then if you dare extrapolate and make another statement, a conclusion based off of that, just to make sure that you understand what the result is. So, maybe in this specific example, we say, “Oh, Anh is not going to be there for the podcast so we’ve got to reschedule it.” And I might say, “Oh, no, no, no, Pete is so special that I’m going to come out of my vacation and I’m going to take this call with him so that I can be on this podcast.” And you’re like, “Okay,” and all worked out.
So, the extrapolation was incorrect in that statement, but we clarified something that was really important that everybody missed and nobody said it out loud.
Pete Mockaitis
That’s fun.
Anh Dao Pham
And so, to me, that’s a great skill and it’s really simple. The one thing on that skill that you have to be okay with is getting things wrong. And I think in note-taking, in general, or any sort of synthesis, you have to be okay with getting things wrong and having people correct you, and it’s not until people have corrected you enough and you got it right in the way that you’ve written it down, that you know that you understand the material, so you have to get pass that, but I think the benefits are huge.
Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And I think that can, over time, expose some themes and patterns in terms of, “Oh, okay, this person will make vacation exceptions for super important things,” or, “Does not ever want to be interrupted on their vacation.” And so, that’s a very narrow extrapolation or theme or pattern recognition.
And then, in a way, it’s even helpful for the individuals in terms of, “Oh, here’s how I’m communicating, and here’s what’s often missed. Okay.” And you mentioned that when you are taking your notes, what you want to record, the most critical things such as the decisions made and the action items, who will do what by when. To what extent do we want to share the key considerations of those decisions?
Because sometimes those conversations are quite meandering, and then they landed on a decision. And sometimes they’re quite clear, “Oh, this critically hinges upon four key inputs.” So, how do you think about note-taking in these environments?
Anh Dao Pham
Yeah, I’d say it’s kind of an elevation of note-taking. So, if you’re in the beginning, and you’re still just trying to keep up with the Joneses in your note-taking, then it’s fine to capture just the most salient points, meaning the key decisions and the action items. I think that’s like the minimum that you really want to capture in order for your notes to be useful to others.
But once you progress to being able to extrapolate and organize information in your note-taking, and, ideally, doing that in real time because you’re participating, then you do want to be capturing the why. And I think that is one of the biggest things that helps you actually remember the material, is understanding the why.
It’s very difficult to just understand or remember words verbatim unless they’re maybe in a song, or the alphabet, or you have some sort of moniker for them. But when you actually understand the underlying reason, you don’t actually have to necessarily understand or remember the outcome. You can kind of reason your way there, if that makes sense.
A similar example from memory was when I was in high school, I took the Calc BC test to see if I could get credit for my Calculus course. And our teacher had covered this concept called the trapezoid rule, which is a way to calculate the area of a particular shape through an integration, or through an integral, and he explained how it was actually put together.
So, when you actually do the trapezoid rule, basically what you do is you take a line of the curve, and then you split it into trapezoids, and then you add all the trapezoids together, and that’s how you actually come up with the total are below the curve. This is like me super geeking out on the math side of things. But when I got to the AP test for this calculus exam, the first thing on the test was this trapezoid rule, and I remembered coming out of it, and everybody was, like, “Oh, my gosh, does anybody here remember the trapezoid rule? Like, how could you possibly remember that?”
And it’s like, “Well, I remembered how he explained it to me. I remember that you had to actually create trapezoids, and I know how to calculate the area of a trapezoid so I just kind of was able to derive the formula as I was going through.” And I know that was such a geek example but it stuck with me so much because I remember, like, “Well, because he explained the why, and I understood how it worked, I didn’t actually have to remember the formula at the very end.”
And so, to your point, if you’re going through and you’re having these conversations, if you can capture the why, participate in the why, then you may not even need to remember the outcome because if somebody is asking, you can say, “Oh, well, I remember we talked about this and that, and this was good. And so, the conclusion must’ve been this.” And I think that that’s very powerful as well to have that information so that you can reason through those things.
Pete Mockaitis
That is really good. And I find that when I don’t have an understanding of a why, or the why is just nonsense to me, I have a hard time remembering anything associated with the conversation or anything there. So, that’s really insightful.
Anh Dao Pham
It’s like your brain almost discards the information. It’s like a superfluous piece of information, you’re like, “That didn’t make sense. It didn’t fit into the puzzle pieces of my brain, so I’m just going to kind toss it out.” And then once you truly understand that, whether or not you agree with it is a different question, but if you at least understand the reason that got you there, then, typically, you’re going to remember the answer.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then any tips when it comes to shorthand, organization, or sending them out, or platforms?
Anh Dao Pham
I mostly advise people to use the tools that are most easy for them to use. You want to use what’s most comfortable for you. So, this is like a really simple example but at my office, we used to have computers in the room, in the conference rooms, for our meetings, and then you could also bring your laptop and plug it in.
And one of the things that I would do pretty regularly is I would bring up the conference room with a computer, and then put my notes documents up on the screen so that people could see it, but then I would actually take notes from my laptop. So, it was just projecting the information through one mechanism and taking notes from my laptop.
One time a person asked me, “Why do you do that?” I was like, “Well, I type much faster on my laptop because the keyboard is the keyboard that I practice on. The keys are a certain height. I’m just more comfortable there.” And it’s such a small tip but if you are much faster on your laptop, then go ahead and use that as advice.
And, similarly, if you’re very familiar with a particular word processing program, if you much prefer Word or Google Docs or something like that, use the mechanism that you think is going to be the fastest and easiest for you to use. Then if you send them out, you might want to translate them or post them somewhere in a shared document, depending on what your company uses, but I’d say when you’re at least capturing the information, use the device and tools that are most comfortable for you.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. And when you mentioned your book, when you send them out, you want to do so as promptly as possible.
Anh Dao Pham
Yes, you do because, honestly, things move so fast that the information may be invalid or have changed over time. So, if I sit too long sometimes on a recap, sometimes people have completed the action items and they’ve already come to slightly different conclusions. So, you want the information to go out as timely as possible, and you want it to be timely and accurate and concise if possible, and to get them to the broadest population that you can that’s relevant to them.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Anh, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about more of your favorite things?
Anh Dao Pham
I’d say the only thing that I wanted to reiterate is I think that, again, note-taking is a very learnable skill, and it’s one of the things that people don’t pay attention to, they don’t think about investing in, and I think that there are so many different benefits if you just invest a little bit more in yourself, that you’ll have. This is in your arsenal for the rest of your career, and reap those benefits.
And I feel like the only thing you need to get over is, if you don’t type very fast, and don’t practice this skill often, just to let your ego get out of the way, and spend a little bit of time, and know that it’s going to benefit you over the course of your career.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Anh, we spoke pretty recently but you mentioned that you did prepare some additional favorite things. So, lay it on us, how about another favorite quote?
Anh Dao Pham
So, recently, I was reading a book called Be Water, My Friend by Shannon Lee. It’s a book about the philosophies of Bruce Lee. And my favorite quote from the book is “The usefulness of a cup is in its emptiness.” And maybe this goes along with that sort of theme of getting out of your own way. One of the things that they talk about in the book is there’s a proverb about a person who is meeting a Zen master, and he’s talking about something, and his Zen master is trying to give him feedback but he’s not listening to anything.
And so, the Zen master takes tea and starts pouring it into a cup, and then the cup starts overflowing, and the person says, “The cup is overflowing. It can’t hold any more tea.” He’s like, “Well, how can you learn anything if your mind is already full.” And I love that quote because it reminds me, if I’m sort of struggling with something, maybe it’s because I have a preconceived notion or something, my mind is too full that it can’t receive the information to understand the truth.
And I feel like when I get stuck, I’ll often think about that, like, “Is there a way that I, again, could be looking at this differently or sort of letting go of some particular assumption or reservation that I have in order to get out of my own way?”
Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?
Anh Dao Pham
Have you seen the TED Talk by Derek Sivers: How to start a movement?
Pete Mockaitis
You know, I think I have long ago.
Anh Dao Pham
It’s one of my favorites. I think it’s a two-minute TED Talk, really, really short. And what I love about it is it’s entertaining as well as it packs a punch of a message. And, basically, he shows a video of a person who’s sort of like dancing like a crazy person on a hill. It’s a hill with a bunch of people who were sort of sitting, maybe it’s like a picnic or a show or something.
And there’s one person who gets up, and he starts dancing. And then after he’s dancing for a period of time, then one second person gets up and starts dancing. And then just a few minutes later, all of a sudden, people swarm together and start dancing together. And he says, “Hey, we’ve started a movement.”
And the interesting thing about this is he says people think about leadership as the first person who actually started the movement, but, actually, it was the first follower who was the most impactful because the first follower joins that leader, and the quote is, “Without the first follower, the leader is just a lone nut.”
And I love that because it stresses the importance of being not necessarily the person who’s typically designated as leader, but a leader in a different capacity. And, in a way, I think note-taking is kind of similar to that. Sometimes you’re offering support in your role, and when you offer support, it offers a different kind of leadership. And the first follower is actually the person who helps create the movement. Without the second person, there never would’ve been a swarm of other people.
So, if you haven’t seen the TED Talk, I highly recommend it. It’s not exactly a study but the message packs a powerful punch.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?
Anh Dao Pham
I was thinking about different books. I read books in all different genres. And kind of in the note-taking theme, I actually have two favorite books on the topics of writing, and these were books that I read when I was writing Glue. The first is On Writing Well by William Zinsser, and it’s a book about writing nonfiction. He actually talks, too, about if you’re writing in business but you’re not a person who’s aspiring to be an author, how important it is to be able to express your words concisely. And I found that it was just such an impactful book, not long at all, but just packed a great message.
The second book on writing is Stephen King, an author that I’m sure everybody is familiar with, called On Writing. It’s more about writing fiction, but I think both of them just teach you that there are so much more to learn in the craft of writing. And while note-taking isn’t the same as writing a book, I think it just reminds you that there are ways that you can always improve on what you’re doing, and something that you’re doing every day on a daily basis in your jobs.
Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool?
Anh Dao Pham
It’s funny because I’ve been saying, “I really like typing so I like to do everything electronically,” but my favorite tool is actually Post-Its, Post-it notes. I love Post-it notes. When I have lots of tasks that I needed to do, I’ve got lots of Post-it notes all over my desk. In fact, you can see when I’m really busy because I’ll have lots of Post-it notes everywhere.
But I use them for facilitating meetings. If you’re doing sort of any in-person discussion, or any sort of brainstorming, or clustering exercises. I love all of that. If you’re doing timelines, it’s easy to plot things out in a timeline. Or, in a case where you maybe don’t want to take notes or you have the luxury of having people in person, and you want to sequence information. This is great. You can write a Post-it, you can move them around. It’s wonderful. I love them so much that people will joke sometimes that I must’ve invested in 3M.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?
Anh Dao Pham
I read a lot. And I feel like people forget that they can read to get information. Probably not your listeners. I think maybe they do like to read, and you have a lot of guests who are authors, but one of the things I find so beautiful about today is that you can learn about almost anything you want to learn about because there are so many resources out there through videos, through blogs, etc. But I love reading books. I feel people gravitate now to online content for a lot of things, or short-term content, but I feel there’s nothing better than a really well-put together book.
Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you’re known for?
Anh Dao Pham
Outside of being a lover of note-taking and a lover of Post-its, in the book and the other things that we had talked about in the last podcast I did, people do talk to me a lot about this idea of not having to have a project plan when you’re a project manager. The other thing that I often get asked about is this methodology I introduced in the book about project management called CALM. And it means closely aligned, loosely managed.
And it’s a way of managing projects without managing them as hands-on, as typical project managers might. Through alignment and setting clear goals, and then giving people ownership over their respective tasks rather than trying to dictate and control everything. So, I get asked about that a lot.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?
Anh Dao Pham
I’d love it if folks could contact me through my website. It’s www.GlueLeaders.com. In there, you can find, again, all the links to any information about my book, this podcast when it’s available, as well as the last podcast that you had me on, Pete. So, thank you so much for the opportunity. And, yeah, if you’d like to reach out or have any other questions about note-taking or anything else in the book, I’d love to hear from you.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?
Anh Dao Pham
I’d say, at least with respect to note-taking, just try it. Just try it and, again, practice. It takes a lot of practice, and practice doesn’t actually make perfect. I feel like, as a person in my career, I’m almost looking for a way to progress, and I never have finished progressing. And so, I’d say practice and continue to strive to make yourself better because I think everybody has the capacity to do more and better as long as they put their minds to it.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. Anh, this has been a treat. I wish you much luck and many good notes.
Anh Dao Pham
Thank you. I hope your listeners really enjoy this note-taking, and I’d love to hear from them. Thank you again for the opportunity, Pete.
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