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Marco Bartolome

Mar 31
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755: How to Market Yourself to Maximize Career Opportunities with Diana Chan

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Diana Chan outlines best practices for improving your career prospects by marketing yourself well.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The biggest networking mistakes professionals make  
  2. The real first step to any successful job hunt
  3. The right way to answer, “Tell me more about yourself”

About Diana

Diana YK Chan is a former Recruiter turned Executive Career Coach, Speaker and Trainer at My Marketability. Her mission is to empower you to own your greatness with confidence to shine and thrive in your career. She’s recognized as LinkedIn Top Voice in 2022 for Job Search & Careers, where she’s known for differentiating your personal brand, building strong relationships, and communicating with confidence. Diana is the Creator of Top Talent Academy, where she’s coached thousands of clients globally on how to stand out, get hired and earn more. She’s the host of the “Dare to Differentiate” live show on LinkedIn and YouTube.

Resources Mentioned

Diana Chan Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Diana, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Diana Chan
Hey, Pete, I’m so delighted to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. Well, I’m delighted to have you and I thought it was really fun that you mentioned that you were a listener in 2018 and my producers found you now, and I think that’s pretty cool.

Diana Chan
Yeah, I’m super excited to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely. Well, so we’re talking about job search stuff. Could you maybe kick us off with maybe a particularly surprising or counterintuitive or extra fascinating discovery you’ve made over the years about just what does it take to win in this job search world?

Diana Chan
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I’ve been helping thousands of job seekers, and since the pandemic, I’ve been seeing a lot of people pivoting. And one of the things that I really noticed is that it’s not about being the most qualified candidate, it’s about how you connect and communicate with the interviewer to convince them why you’re the ideal candidate with confidence. So, it’s not just about your qualifications but how do you show up to showcase that you are the one and how you can help them?

Pete Mockaitis
And so, that makes sense in terms of many people have probably had the experience of, “Oh, I’ve got all the right stuff. I’m checking the boxes, the skills, the experience, the knowledge,” and they may even be angry at the injustice, like, “I should have been selected but I wasn’t.” So, connection, we’re going to dig into that. But, while we’re here, anything, any top do’s or don’ts when it comes to connecting well?

Diana Chan
Yeah, I love that question. So, one of my networking tips I love to share is always my ABC’s. Always be connecting, always be curious, always be cultivating. And the way I look at the connection piece is that a lot of times, people neglect the networking piece until they need to look for a job, but you really want to look at connecting with people anytime because you just never know what opportunities may unfold along the way.

So, some of my best tips is really asking questions, getting curious, showcasing the curiosity that you’re really interested in them, showcase warmth as well, like this sincerity and authenticity to really connect, finding common interests. It really helps as well to build that trust and rapport instantly there.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. And I guess I’d also love your take in terms of maybe zooming out a bit. Right now, allegedly, The Great Resignation is upon us, and we’re recording this in March of 2022, and it seems as though it is the employee’s market or more so than it has been before. First of all, is that a fair assessment or am I just repeating talking points that are false?

Diana Chan
You’re absolutely correct because millions of people have quit their jobs which means that employers are having a hard time to fill the vacant roles and the new roles there, so it is a candidate’s market right now. However, it’s also a very competitive market, meaning that not only, yes, there are these vacancies but this is where the whole personal branding comes in, that you need to really elevate your personal brand to differentiate and stand out and showcase not just your qualifications but what it is that you can really do for the employer.

How can you help them solve their problems? How can you really help them achieve their goals? One of the biggest or I guess newer things that I’ve been seeing right now, because I tend to work with a lot more seasonal professionals who have at least 10 to 20 years of experience and they’ve been in the same company for a long time. And what I’m seeing right now is that there are more new jobs being created that never existed before.

So, it is so important to be able to diversify your skillset to showcase the potential that you have to offer. So, for example, I’ve seen people, like I had a client who was a director in operations at a hospital in the ICU, and she made a pivot to work in long-term care. And she had a newly created role for her from the CEO where it was a combination of operations, strategic partnerships, and quality. So, it’s leveraging her background but also the need of the business of working for heading of how she can add value there.

Pete Mockaitis
What do we call that title?

Diana Chan
It’s like a combination of multiple traits.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, okay. Cool.

Diana Chan
It’s a newly created role. And I think when we look at it, there’s this need of your ability to be able to think strategically and work cross-functionally, understand multiple different areas of the businesses there.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I love it. We’re already getting into some juicy how’s and tips and tricks. Maybe to kick us off though, could you share a why in terms of why do we want to always be connecting if we feel like, “Hey, this job is working out okay”? Could you give us a story or some research, some inspiration that can get us in the mode of, indeed, always be connecting and branding and doing this stuff?

Diana Chan
Yeah, absolutely. So, the way I like to think about it, and I’ll tie this connecting and branding together, I talk about the importance of personal branding. It’s really going to help. It’s all about who you are, how you’re perceived, and what’s your promise in terms of your value proposition. When you have a strong brand and you also add that with connecting with people, it’s going to add more credibility. And when you have more credibility, it’s also going to increase your marketability which is a result that’s going to help you get more opportunities as well.

And so, when you connect with more people, and when I think of connecting with people, it’s not just about you getting something from them, but I talk a lot about give, give, give before you get. So, the more you add value and help others, people are going to remember you. So, I’ll just give an example is I used to work as a former recruiter. And one of the things I love that not a lot of people do that stand out is when the candidates I reached out to that are not the right fit but they refer other people in their network to me, and I always remember these people because not a lot of people do that.

And it’s this whole pay it forward where the more you do it, the more people are going to remember you. So, for me, in my instances, I love also referring all sorts of people in my network. If I know a client that’s a good fit for a role, or someone I know, an employer that’s filling this role, I’ll make an introduction. And the least I can do is maybe open some doors. I can’t guarantee the job but at least it opens doors to opportunities. And by doing that, you’re going to build this trust, essentially, so when it comes to asking for a favor down the road, people are more likely to say yes because you have built this credibility there.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s powerful. And so, you’re saying you were the recruiter, you interviewed candidates, you told the candidates no, and they still brought you…

Diana Chan
No, no, they said no to me. Yeah, both ways. I’ve done that, too. I have rejected candidates. Actually, when I was at Google, I’ve rejected more people than accepted. And some people are just really good at relationship building that they referred me other people. And there’s the other way around where they didn’t…it was not a right fit for them that they rejected me but then they recommended others in their network to me. And I always remember these people because we’re talking like probably just 1% or 2% of the people who actually do that.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s true. It’s rare and it’s special and you remember. And so, you’ve got a broad network of people who are looking to help you out, you increase your opportunities. And then I guess I’m thinking specifically because I’ve learned that most of my listeners, go figure, like their jobs, and I’m not trying to say, “Quit your job.” But I think that it can be quite possible to get comfortable, which is not always a bad thing, sometimes you just really want to be in that groove, and yet I think that it’s in our interests to be connecting and to have an eye open.

And I’m curious, like I heard some stat, and maybe you’ll know it better than I, that most of us…maybe I heard it from Ramit Sethi, it’s like most of us are being underpaid by, I don’t know, 10% or some amount. And, I don’t know, first of all, do you think that’s true or just how much opportunity do you think we leave on the table by not keeping our eyes open?

Diana Chan
I think you leave a lot, and this is because we don’t manage our brand or manage our network, you’re not being known, you’re not being seen, so the marketability and feasibility and credibility is lacking there, so people may forget about you if you don’t have that. So, you mentioned like your listeners here, like they love their job.

And one of the common things I see, because I work with a lot of people who either have been at the same company, say, a decade or 20 years, and they face a restructuring, or they got a package, and they need to start fresh. A lot of times they don’t know where to start. And the common thing I hear is that they have not worked on building their external network, which is understandable because they put all their time and effort in their internal company here.

But one thing I talk about is you don’t want to wait till the time when you need to look for a job to start networking. You can start even networking with people internally or people you know who made a jump externally to stay in touch with them because if you have this relationship and they’re hiring down the road, they are going to keep you in mind.

And as you move up in the company, let’s just imagine you get to this VP level or SVP level, there’s going to be less and less of those openings. And oftentimes, and I see this a lot with my clients, is a lot of times they find an opportunity to uncover new opportunities a lot faster because of networking or they are referred by other people.

Study shows that you’re five times more likely to get hired through a referral. And when you have these relationships, doors just open. I have seen where clients, the difference between an executive-level client where they have a strong external network that normally takes at least six months maybe to a year to find a VP level and above, to someone landing in couple of months, two to three months, because they were able to tap into their network there.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I thought that’s a really compelling argument right there in terms of it seems obvious but I guess I haven’t really thought about it until you’ve really said it just now that if just imagine an organizational chart, I got an org chart and the boxes and they’re cascading down, like there are far more individual contributor roles than there are manager roles; and there are far more manager roles than there are director roles; and there are far more director roles than there are VP roles; and far more VP roles than there are C-suite roles; and far more C-suite roles than there are CEO roles.

So, that’s just sort of the basics of spans and layers and mathematics and how that works out. And, thusly, if you are on a cool trajectory, you’re learning, you’re growing, you’re being promoted, indeed, there will come a day in which it’s like, “Oh, shoot, there’s not very many spots left.

So, there are not many opportunities left, and it’s like, I don’t know, someone needs to die or retire, and that might be years before that happens kind of a situation. And so, if you are ahead of the game with your networks and your people, your connections, then you’ll have a much easier time making the leap into the upper echelons when there aren’t as many spots available for you. That makes good sense. Thank you.

Diana Chan
Yeah, and I think that there’s going to be a time where people will hit either a plateau in their career where they either feel like they hit their ceiling or there aren’t really that many opportunities, or things are not just as challenging anymore and they want to consider something new. One thing I can say to your listeners, from my experience, is that if you are either looking to make that bigger leap of either greater responsibilities or greater income, I should talk about the tangible results of the greater income, I know from experience you’re more likely to get a five to six-figure jump of salary by making an external jump than internally.

Pete Mockaitis
A five to six what?

Diana Chan
Five to six figures more than before by making an external jump than an internal promotion.

Pete Mockaitis
More? So, you were thinking, “Okay. Hey, I’m a manager at,” we’ll just say a cola company, “and maybe I could be promoted to a director of a cola company.” You’re saying that if I were to go become a director at a competitive cola company, I would expect to get not just an increase in compensation, which I should get, I’m being promoted anyway, but rather $10,000 to $100,000 extra on top of bigger bump just because I went external.

Diana Chan
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s huge. Okay.

Diana Chan
It is huge. Like, internally, when you think about it, the typical pay raise is between 3%, 5% maybe 7%.

Pete Mockaitis
Like, an annual, like I’m sticking around doing the same thing.

Diana Chan
An annual increase, right. That’s like the typical type there. Like, I’ll give an example. I had a client, even not at a senior manager level, senior manager client in product management at a telecommunications company. He made a jump to fintech, a financial technology company, and it’s like a growing startup. His salary increased by 40% and received a five-figure signing bonus.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Diana Chan
At the similar level, the senior manager level.

Pete Mockaitis
Alrighty. There you go.

Diana Chan
And so, if you can imagine for those who are making the next-level jump, even a title jump, what the possibility. Now, I can’t say this is a guarantee, but right now, because it’s a candidate’s market, and if you are really good at what you do, you have a great reputation, you have a great track record of success, you have really great skillsets that’s in demand right now, you have higher negotiation power.

I’ll give you another great example, like literally just happened to my other client, a more junior-level client, a senior business system analyst. So, a more technical role and a Salesforce type of a role there. The employer offered a number but he also had another offer elsewhere that was paying more. And so, he went back to negotiate, and say like, “Hey, they’re offering like a 100K and you’re offering me 75K. What can you do?” That’s a 25K difference, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Diana Chan
Within a couple of hours, this employer got back with him with a $25,000 more plus another 10K signing bonus.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’ll do it. Cool. Well, that’s exciting, the opportunities. Thank you. So, I think we’ve built a nice strong why there with regard to whether you want to, and whether it’s in the future by years, you get ahead of it, or you might be surprised to learn that there’s a big opportunity that you’re just not even aware of available to you right now. By doing the stuff, you increase the odds of you being able to seize that and benefit.

So, let’s talk about some of the goods here when it comes to connecting. Can you share with us a few of your best and worst practices when it comes to growing a large and meaningful professional network?

Diana Chan
Yeah. So, one of the things with networking is, first, we ought to really focus on give, give, give before we get. So, I think that’s the first thing in terms of building your network, is think about, “How can I add value to other people?” And this is where you can really think about, like, “What expertise do I have? What am I passionate about? Who do I like to support there when I think from that perspective?”

And then from there, if we’re thinking of, “Well, what type of network do I want to build?” This is where you want to map out the qualities or people that you want to learn. One of the tools I love using to build my network is LinkedIn. LinkedIn is a fantastic tool to build your network, stay in touch with people, and it’s also a great way for you to share your expertise, to build your credibility, and authority as well.

So, over time, the more you start, essentially, giving back or helping each other out, your network is just going to increase. So, for example, like I’m connected to hundreds of recruiters on my LinkedIn and because I started off also working as a recruiter, and over time, you just meet other recruiters as well to learn about best practices. A great way to meet other people is find other people who are doing similar work as you but in a different industry to share best practices. That is a great strategy.

I have some of my very senior-level clients where they spend a lot of time in the same company, and the way they approach networking is think of how they can share best practices to help each other out there. So, that’s another great way to build a network.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s super. Okay. And so, when it comes to sharing, you can share with people that you already know in terms of give, give, give and so that they, “Boy, Diana is so swell. She always has all kinds of insightful great things that I’m so glad to know about.” So, you can do give, give give. And then when it comes to meeting them new people, how do you recommend we do that?

Diana Chan
Yeah, I love this. So, this all starts with really building the trust and rapport. And the way I like to think about it, even if we dropped careers and job search aside. Let’s just imagine we’re meeting someone new, how do you go about doing that? The key here is really finding the mutual common interests that you have.

I’ll give you a very simple example. This was a couple of years ago when I went on a cruise, so this was pre-pandemic. Pre-pandemic, you meet a lot of strangers on a cruise, and I met this family where my kid was playing with their child, and we were just standing there beside each other, and I tried to spark a conversation. And I noticed the father was wearing the Raptors T-shirt, the basketball shirt, and I could tell that he was from Canada, being from Toronto.

And that’s how I started a conversation, I was like, “Oh, I see that you’re wearing a Raptors shirt,” and we were able to start talking about a little bit of basketball, a little bit of where we’re from, what we do and all that. And just from that, we were able to actually exchange contacts at the end of the very short, like a 15, 20-minute conversation that we would like to connect further there. So, that’s one example of connecting, is building that trust and rapport by finding a common interest.

Another, let’s just imagine, like going to, let’s say, a wedding, going to a wedding there. One of the common things is that we all know the couple, so that’s a great way to bond with each other. I also believe that the way to connect a big part is really showcasing warmth and curiosity. And you just never know by just doing this, just by being genuine yourself, what opportunities may open up.

One of the examples that I love sharing is actually this was many years ago at a wedding. The emcee which was a sibling of the groom, she had fantastic energy and warmth and enthusiasm that it was just very captivating. Like, she got the entire crowd going there. And I knew that she was a new grad, I knew from my friend that she was a new grad, that she was graduating and she’s looking for a job.

And I remember, like she made this instant impression on me that I actually said to my husband that, “She would be fantastic for your new-grad leadership program at your company.” And long story short, I referred her to the company, and she got hired. And to this day, she’s still at the company.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. That’s cool. Just working on the microphone at a wedding.

Diana Chan
Like, this is what I call opportunities that you don’t even think about that you can actually land a job by really showcasing your best self.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s beautiful. Okay, cool. So, that’s some of the connecting piece. Can you dig a bit more into some of our personal brand, professional story, unique value proposition, kinds of self-knowledge and representation pieces? How do we, I guess, get that clarity first of all? And then how do you recommend we write it up or what do we do with that?

Diana Chan
Yeah, that’s a big question and I’m going to break it down. I’m going to break it down from the clarity piece and then I’ll move into the branding piece. So, that’s part of a lot of work I do is really helping people get clear of who they are, what they want, what’s important to you. When you have clarity, you have more courage and confidence to pursue whatever you want and you come across as a much more compelling communicator.

So, the first step is really knowing, like, “What are my core strengths? What are my interests? What are my core values?” When you can even get clear on strengths, interests, and values, it becomes your guiding compass of what kind of opportunities that you want to pursue, and it becomes your selection criteria as well in evaluating opportunities.

So, the first step is always soul searching before job searching. I find the common mistake people make is that they jump right into job searching, updating their resume and LinkedIn profile before even getting clear on what their target is. And I have found that when you’re not clear on what you’re targeting, your messages, your brand, the way you communicate, it’s not compelling or convincing enough. So, that’s really the first step. It really pays off by doing that soul-searching work.

And I have found by doing that, for those who want to, say, make a pivot, pivot into a different industry, a different profession, it’s really going to help them with updating and finetuning the next stage which is the personal branding. I’m really passionate about personal branding because my belief is that when you elevate your personal brand, you, essentially, increase your marketability, which is ability to attract more opportunities, and your ability to increase your earning potential. So, the greater your brand, the greater your market value, which is aka your earning potential there.

And so, this whole personal branding piece is really what I love to do as a coach, is essentially identifying what differentiates you. What differentiates you? What your unique selling points? So, I have my five P’s that I guide my clients through when it comes to defining their personal brand. And so, the first, and I’ll walk your audience through here, the five P’s here.

The first is the product, which is seeing yourself as a product. So, you want to think about your features. What are your strengths? What are your skills? What’s your personality, your expertise, your interests? All those things that you want to identify, like really just getting clarity on that. If you’re not clear on what your strengths are, you can take a test called the Gallup Assessment, which is a StrengthsFinder in identifying your top five strengths.

The second P is the potential, which is really your performance and results. So, this is what I call the track record of success. This is like the proof point. Employers love to see your track record of success there. So, really mapping out all these accomplishments of yours and all these performance reviews and results is really going to help you tell a compelling story.

And then the third P is the perception, which is how others see you. This is your reputation. And what you can do if you’re not sure is to send out a survey to your friends, your colleagues, your boss, and at least 25 to 30 people. Ask them questions, like, what words will they use to describe you, what are your core strengths, what value do you bring, how do they describe your leadership style or communication style.

And I find that when my clients do this exercise, it’s always very eye opening because it helps them see, like, “Oh, this is how I’m perceived, and these are the things that I want to amplify,” if that’s really true to you. So, an example, one of the core words people always tell me is that I’m always very high energy, very passionate with what I do, so the way I show up, I want to reflect that as well.

And the fourth one is positioning. So, this is around the messaging, which is really how you craft out your unique value proposition. This is where you want to think of, essentially, like your personal branding statement, your top three unique selling points. I believe in selling yourself in three points because that’s how you become more memorable. This is where you can come up with the benefits of hiring you, like, what are the benefits are there. So, really thinking of it from the employer question point.

And then lastly, the last P, which is packaging. So, this is the whole how you present yourself, how you want to show up online, on camera, the whole in terms of your brand, style, your tone of voice, all those things tied to the five P’s. So, when you walk through these five steps of the five P’s of personal branding, it’s really going to help you then elevate all your other marketing materials. Like, you think of the resume, the LinkedIn profile, your elevator pitch, everything is going to tie back to your personal brand.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s fun. It’s funny, when you said the P’s, I was like, “Oh, product, place, price, promotion.” Then we started with product, I was like, “Really?” So, then, okay, I got you now. So, packaging, that’s interesting. So, that could very much be the things like what you’re wearing, your resume design. And I like that in that what I like about your framework is, one, it’s alliterative so I can remember it. So, thank you. Five P’s.

And, two, it’s like resume formatting and clothing stuff is not the end-all-be-all but it matters. It is one of the five. And so, I like that because, as you said, it’s tempting to go right for the, “Ahh, let’s jump right to the job hunting.” And you said, we want to do soul searching before job searching. Nice turn of a phrase. Thank you. So, that’s excellent.

So, now, I’m curious, with regard to packaging, I think there are some easy things with regard, “Don’t have crazy fonts in your resume. Look professional. Don’t have your LinkedIn photo be shirtless or bikini, unless you’re a model.” That’s what you’re trying to represent specifically, like, “Look how I’m beautiful. You should hire me to promote your products.”

But I guess where I’m thinking most about is positioning, with the personal branding statement, the three steps, the benefits. Please, let’s dig deep into this.

Diana Chan
Sure. This takes time. This is an exercise where it takes a lot of time for people to do. Maybe we can go into the branding statement because that’s usually the arc of the rest of the things, the benefit statements there.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure. Let’s do it.

Diana Chan
So, I can share, when we think of personal branding statement, essentially, it’s a short and sweet sound bite that is the anchor of defining who you are, what you bring to the table. That’s what it really is. And I see that as like an arc that helps set the tone and stage of the rest of your content. It can also be used as like a very simple one-liner intro when you’re introducing yourself. You can have it at the top of your LinkedIn bio statement or the tagline. It can also be part of like your top statement in your resume as well. So, you can come up with that and then just tweak it accordingly.

So, I’ll share with you, I guess, some of the guiding principles, say, like if you ask, like what are some things you want to avoid is you want to avoid being fluffy in terms of just having descriptive words that is being fluffy. You really want to focus on, essentially, impact. Like, what is the value that you really bring to the table?

So, I’ll give you an example for myself, what I’ve created is I’ll say something like, “I’m a personal branding marketer for corporate leaders and executives in career transition. I’m known for identifying your unique value, mastering your messages, and communicating with confidence to stand out, get hired, and earn more.”

So, you see what I created here is you have the title, the title of what you do in terms of your profession, and then who I serve, I’m serving those corporate leaders in transition which is like the specific scenario that they’re in, and then you can use, “I’m known for,” “I have a track record of success in,” and you either identify like one to three of these value prop statements that is, essentially, more employer-focused or what someone wants to achieve.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Now, so this can land in the summary of our resume. It can land as the top…well, let’s see. I guess we have a character limit in the LinkedIn…

Diana Chan
Tagline? Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
…tagline. So, that could be the personal branding marketing bit.

Diana Chan
What you can do shorten it is I can help you here. If you think of LinkedIn, yes, the tagline is short. So, what I can say is, “I help you stand out, get hired, and earn more.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, that’s there. But then in your description, you can go into the whole bit.

Diana Chan
Exactly. Exactly. So, you can shorten it in the tagline that way.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so that was great. I’m thinking more, more, more. Could you give us some more great examples and then maybe some disappointing examples, and tell us, “Hmm, what’s a little bit off here?”

Diana Chan
I’ll give another one. How about if I have a poor example one right now? I have another one, it’s a marketing person as well, “I’m an analytical marketing leader with a proven track record of managing successful marketing campaigns, and deriving insights from data to drive business growth.” So, in this example, we described this person as an analytical marketing leader.

In some instances, they like to have people who are analytical type of roles. In this case, we talked about managing successful marketing campaigns and deriving insights from data to drive business growth. So, we know that this someone is a good data-driven marketer, essentially, in simple terms. A data-driven marketer.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, that was fun when it comes to recruiting or marketing or coaching. How about something in like project management?

Diana Chan
That’s a great question. So, one of the tips I want to offer the audience, because I know many of you have different professions, different area of expertise, the way I want to coach you to really think about it is, one, think about the words that will describe you, and, second is really thinking back about what’s the main mandate of what you do and what’s the significance or the importance of the work that you do.

So, if you can just ask yourself those questions, it’s like, “I help drive…” Is it revenue, if you work in sales? Or, if I’m in accounting, “I help ensure things are accurate.” Or, if I’m marketing, that, “I help drive market share.” You want to just get clear on what are those metrics there. So, let me give you an example around project management.

An example could be, “I’m a strategic project manager with proven success, driving multifaceted software implementation projects that spark incredible results and ROI for my clients.” So, this is like something short and sweet. You can go deeper if you like to have more numbers, but at least, at a very high level, you’re going getting clear on, okay, you worked on software projects that help with driving an ROI for your clients. So, that already gives a hint to someone that you could be maybe in a role that you worked with clients in a consulting role but in a project management capacity.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s handy. And then that gets you thinking in terms of…I guess there’s always this delicate dance between we want more detail versus being succinct because it’s sort of like, “Oh, incredible results and ROI. I’m thinking was it more on the cost-reduction side or more on the revenue-generation side?” And then you can sort of…I guess that’s why people hire you is to really get into the, “Oh, the tradeoffs associated with…is it going to take me 20 words to describe the cool what incredible result means in my world or is it so varied that we’re going to have to leave it at that?”

Diana Chan
Yeah, yeah. Well, so one of the things I want to point out for the listeners who are listening to this is this is a sound bite, so meaning it’s like short and sweet and punchy. It’s a little different when you’re supposed to talk, come up with your elevator pitch, that common question of, “Tell me about yourself.” It’s a build-on to that. So, if you get a question in an interview, “Tell me about yourself,” don’t just use this one-liner sound bite. Make sure that you go more in depth, and this is where I guide people through another form of helping them crack out their two-minute elevator pitch there.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, tell us about that.

Diana Chan
I knew that was coming. Yeah, the elevator pitch is something I love working with people. I have a course called Master Your Glowing Introduction, and it’s my popular six P’s. I have another six P’s that I guide clients through there. And so, it’s broken down into three paragraphs. The first is, essentially, the who you are piece. So, think of your passion, that’s where the first P is your passion. What do you care about?

And the second P is, essentially, the potential. What are you known for? Think of your strengths. So, that gives a really good sense of who you are. Most people tend to just start off with a chronological order of when they finished school and throughout their entire career history. But if you start with this of what you care about and what you’re good at, it’s going to pique interests.

And then second paragraph, essentially, is your credibility, which is the third P of your past experience and your proud accomplishments. So, this is going to give credibility because you’re going to share with them a summary of your experience. So, instead of just listing out every single job that you had, you really want to think of a summary of years of experience in this industry, in these functional areas that you’ve worked in, and then highlight some of the problems or projects that you’ve worked, that you’ve done.

And then come up with a good story because no one else is going to have this proud accomplishment story the same as you so you want to think of something that you’re really proud of that’s going to become more memorable.

And then to close, which is the third paragraph, is the fifth P is present. You want to bring it back to the present of, “What are you looking for now? What’s next? Why are you looking for a change?” Or, bring it back if you’re going for an interview, like, “Why are we talking here?” And the other P is purpose. If you’re trying to sell yourself, you want to talk about why you, “Why do you believe you’re the best candidate for this opportunity? Or, why do you believe you’re going to be successful for this job?”

So, just by following this formula, it’s going to give you, essentially, when you think about it, a bit of who you are, what’s your track record of success, your motivation of what you want, and why you want it. And I can tell you from experience, every time I do this exercise with people, without them having any knowledge of the six P’s, all they talk about is what they’ve done since they’ve finished school.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, so that sounds nice. So, that’s about two minutes altogether?

Diana Chan
Yes, two minutes.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, Diana, tell us, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Diana Chan
Now, one thing I do want though, since we’re on this topic, is we can maybe talk about is for those who are looking to pivot or looking to make a change, how they can go about doing that, what are some of the things they can do to help them with that. So, for those who are really feeling either stuck or at a crossroads, how to go about figuring out what’s next, there are a few pieces of advice I would offer.

One is I talked about the soul searching before job searching. That’s the first piece, it’s really gaining that career clarity. Second is go conduct informational interviews, go talk to people to find out, “What does that day-to-day look like? What does it take to be successful? What are the challenges in that job?” When you get more intel and insight, it’s going to help you have better conversations there.

Third is, once you know what you want, create a reverse-engineer roadmap to figure out, “What are the steps it takes for me to get there?” So, may you want to even identify what are those options. Like, if you’re not clear on what you want yet, identifying, brainstorm these options out, and assess the pros and cons. You can talk to people, you can do research, whatever that is, it’s really going to help you gain more clarity there.

Once you have all this information and you’re really clear on what you’re going after next, this really all the steps that I do is like about repositioning. Repositioning your brand, figuring out what really differentiates you, what’s going to resonate with the audience, and then think about, “How am I going to update my LinkedIn profile, my elevator pitch, my resume?” to really tie it back to your brand that’s really going to make you stand out there.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. Well, now, Diana, could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Diana Chan
Well, one of my favorite quotes I love to say, a lot of my listeners like they do know, is, “Own your greatness with confidence to shine and thrive.” And what I mean by that is when you own your greatness and believe you have something valuable to offer, and you own it with your confidence, you’re more likely to shine, stand out, and reach your full potential and make a difference.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Now, could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Diana Chan
Yeah. So, Vanessa Van Edwards, her book on Cues. Their research that was really fascinating was around how they studied 495 pitches on Shark Tank. And what they discovered, those who actually win or pitch or get the money from the Sharks are those who’ve demonstrated that high confidence and the high charisma, the warmth. I find that very, very fascinating.

And so, this is where it ties into the work I do, of what I said earlier of this podcast, is it’s not just about being the most qualified candidate. It’s about how you say what you say that’s going to win you as the ideal candidate to hire.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Diana Chan
My favorite book is Designing Your Life which is a great book for those who are not sure what they want to do next. That’s a great book to check out.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Diana Chan
LinkedIn, hands down. I love using LinkedIn on a daily basis to share content, share my expertise, connect with people, make new friends. I love doing that. And I also love just having my own show to connect with my audience.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Diana Chan
Well, one thing I’ve been doing is actually having this morning ritual right now, is really making sure I’m taking care of myself, whether it’s taking my vitamins, taking all these healthy drinks, or having this quiet moment of meditation before I take my kids to school. Those are some things that I really want to feel grounded and start my day strong and fresh there.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Diana Chan
It’s the own your greatness. Own your greatness with confidence because you know why, Pete, is oftentimes when people come to me, they lack that confidence in selling themselves effectively. In order for you to reach that next-level role or get promoted, you really have to own your greatness with confidence to really reach those next-level opportunities.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Diana Chan
Yeah. So, what I would say is start tracking your accomplishments and results. If this is something you haven’t been doing, create a success file, start tracking your accomplishments that you’re proud of. And then I would encourage, for those who are not active yet on LinkedIn or have a bare bones profile on LinkedIn, I encourage you to create an awesome LinkedIn profile and to connect with me as well because that’s how you’re going to start building your network and attract more great opportunities there.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, on LinkedIn, they just type Diana Chan, C-H-A-N, and there you are?

Diana Chan
They type in Diana YK Chan because there’s a ton of Diana Chan. Diana YK Chan, you’ll certainly find me there.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. Well, Diana, this has been a treat. I wish you all the best and keep up the great work.

Diana Chan
Thank you so much, Pete.

Mar 28
0

754: How to Get More by Negotiating So Everyone Wins with Barry Nalebuff

By | Podcasts | No Comments

 

 

Barry Nalebuff introduces a radical new way to negotiate so everyone gets their fair share of the pie.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Three questions to make any negotiation easier  
  2. The two key words to avoid and embrace
  3. The popular negotiation tactic that can actually break trust

About Barry

Barry Nalebuff is the Milton Steinbach Professor at Yale School of Management where he has taught for over thirty years. An expert on game theory, he has written extensively on its application to business strategy. His best sellers include Thinking Strategically, The Art of Strategy, and Mission in a Bottle. 

He advised the NBA in their prior negotiations with the Players Association, and several firms in major M&A transactions. Barry has been teaching this negotiation method at Yale in the MBA core and online at Coursera. His Introduction to Negotiation course has over 350,000 learners and 4.9/5.0 rating. He is also a serial entrepreneur. His ventures include Honest Tea, Kombrewcha, and Choose Health. 

A graduate of MIT, a Rhodes Scholar, and a Junior Fellow at the Harvard Society of Fellows, Barry earned his doctorate at Oxford University.

Resources Mentioned

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Barry Nalebuff Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Barry, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Barry Nalebuff
So awesome to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about some of the wisdom from your book Split the Pie: A Radical New Way to Negotiate. But, first, I want to hear a cool story to the extent that you’re at liberty to share from your involvement in the NBA negotiations.

Barry Nalebuff
So, I’m not really at liberty to share but I will say that what I enjoy is the negotiation part as opposed to I’m not a giant sports fan. And so, I was probably, at times, the only person in the room who didn’t recognize all the other people in the room.

Pete Mockaitis
I am guilty of that as well, like, “Who’s in the Super Bowl again?” when it comes to sports and general awareness, yeah. Well, in some ways, that might have helped you keep your cool, like you weren’t intimidated, like, “Whoa, these superstars.” You’re just like, “Okay, hey, hey, let’s see what makes sense for everybody.”

Barry Nalebuff
The most intimidating factor was they had really great custom suits because, of course, none of these folks can wear off-the-shelf anyway, and they did look sharp, I got to say.

Pete Mockaitis
Did you ask where they got them?

Barry Nalebuff
I did not.

Pete Mockaitis
I got a custom-made suit to my measurements in Shanghai and I wore it until it was just about tattered but I also don’t fit anymore because that was when I was 20, and, bodies have a way of changing over time. Cool. All right. Well, so we’re talking negotiation. If you think back on your research and career, is there a particularly surprising or counterintuitive or extra-fascinating discovery you’ve made along the way?

Barry Nalebuff
I think so. So, let me start with what it’s like to teach negotiation.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Barry Nalebuff
Because my students at Yale, they are smart, they are empathetic, they care about the world. I love them as people until they start negotiating, and then many of them become like jerks.

Pete Mockaitis
Just because they think that’s the game they’re supposed to be playing or what’s behind that?

Barry Nalebuff
So, I don’t know. It’s a little bit of they read in some novel about this tough negotiator person who makes ultimatums, they’re scared, they think they’re in a police procedure where somebody’s read them their Miranda Rights, anything they can say can and will be used against them, and so they throw out all of their IQ, all of their empathy, all goes out the window. Moreover, they’re not good at being jerks, they’re not naturally jerks, and so they perform terribly in these negotiations.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, that’s a great takeaway right there.

Barry Nalebuff
Yeah. And so, that to me is a surprise, “Why do people who…?” So, people ask me all the time, they’re like, “How do I negotiate with jerks?” And one of my responses is, “Don’t you be the jerk that other people have to write to me about.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Barry Nalebuff
“And understand the other person has a mother who loves them, and maybe they aren’t really actually a jerk. They just don’t know any better in terms of how to negotiate.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, you’re bringing back some memories when we were closing on a house, and the lawyers, it’s like they made things so intense. No offense to the lawyers listening. I know they’re not all that way. But it was like, “Man, can we just like talk about what our concerns are and just see if we can figure something out. We’re getting very accusative over here.”

Barry Nalebuff
Absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so your book Split the Pie, tell us, what’s the big idea behind this? And what is this radical new way to negotiate in your subtitle?

Barry Nalebuff
So, truth be told, it’s not new. It’s 2000 years old in the sense that it comes from the Talmud, it comes from this idea of the principle of by the cloth, but I think that the idea has been lost for 2000 years, and you bring it back, maybe you can call it new, so I’m hoping that’s okay.

Pete Mockaitis
We’ll let it count, yeah.

Barry Nalebuff
And the big idea is this funny notion that people don’t generally understand what it is they’re negotiating over. And, as a result, because they’re confused, they make arguments that don’t really make sense, they make proposals about fairness that are based on where they sit but aren’t really truly fair so they throw around the fair word in ways that aren’t appropriate. They’re confused about what power is, and actually that’s one of the reasons why people end up acting like jerks.

Pete Mockaitis
And so then, I imagine, Barry, is it fair to say that each of these dimensions is fairly unique negotiation by negotiation? Or are there some universals here, like, “What people really want is this”?

Barry Nalebuff
So, we’re jumping ahead a little bit and happy to do it in life. I want to give the other side what it is they want, not because I like them, not because I’m just generous or a pushover, but if they get what they want, then I can get what I want.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, we got some Zig Ziglar in there. I like it.

Barry Nalebuff
Absolutely. And, of course, I also want them to give me what I want so that I can then want to do the deal as well. Again, the universal point that I think the surprise, or perhaps not so much in hindsight, is to understand why we’re having this negotiation, what’s the value we can create through an agreement. And once you recognize that, you recognize symmetry that is, otherwise, not apparent.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s intriguing. Can you elaborate with an example?

Barry Nalebuff
Sure. My mother was living in a rental house in Florida where she’d lived the last 10 years. And the Florida real estate market has been heating up, and her landlord decided to put the house on the market for sale. Now, he thought, he wrote to her in an email saying something like, “I’m planning on listing this house for 800,000. I’d be glad to sell to you at a $10,000 discount, 790. Are you interested?”

And she is interested, she likes living there, she doesn’t want to move but, of course, that’s not really what the negotiation was about. So, what are the real reasons why it makes sense for her to do this transaction with him? And I’m flipping the cards a little bit by turning the question to you but let’s give it a shot.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, actually, we’re in a similar situation. We moved to Tennessee and so we’re renting in the first year and it sounds like the landlord may be looking to sell or may not, so I can relate. But one thing that’s big is like, “We don’t want to move. Moving is a pain.”

Barry Nalebuff
Moving is a pain.

Pete Mockaitis
My stuff is here. I’ve set it up the way I want it, and then to just go through the shopping round and the searching, and then all that stuff, yeah.

Barry Nalebuff
Great. So, moving is a pain for you. It’s both time-consuming and costly. It’s more so for my 88-year-old mother.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

Barry Nalebuff
At the same time, fixing up the place is a pain for him because she doesn’t care about the stains on the carpet, or the walls that are perhaps a little bit more yellowing maybe, the paint isn’t as white as it was 10 years ago, the appliance are a little outdated, all those things she’s learned to live with.

Pete Mockaitis
And all the showing. He’s got plenty of hassles as well.

Barry Nalebuff
Yeah, but there’s something else that’s even a bigger factor, which is there’s no real estate agent commission, there’s no 5% that needs to be paid. And on this $800,000 sale, that’s about $40,000, and he’s just offered her 10,000 of that.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, how generous.

Barry Nalebuff
And so, my response is, “I think this negotiation is really over $40,000. It’s not actually over the price of the house. It’s over how much we’re going to each save of the real estate agent commission. If you sell this house to somebody else for 800, you’re going to clear 760.” If my mother buys this house, a similar house in the market, she’s going to have to pay 800, so it’s a $40,000 gain that can be created by the two of them doing that transaction with each other.

So, he says, “Well, look it’s a hot market, and, therefore, I should get more of a gain.” And my view is the fact it’s a hot market means the price is high, but it doesn’t mean that he’s entitled to more of that 40,000.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I like this.

Barry Nalebuff
That he needs her to make this purchase to save that 40,000 to avoid the real estate agent just as much as she needs him to be the person who she buys from. So, I say they should split it 20,000-20,000, and that she’s prepared to pay market price for the house. So, if you’re willing to sell this at $20,000 below market price, you’ll be $20,000 ahead and we’ll be $20,000 ahead. And so, he gives a tentative yes to that.

And, fortunately, there were five other sales on that street in the last six months so we can look at the price per square foot, on exterior space, interior space, do the adjustment for the size of the house, came up with a number, 763,492 or something like that, so it’s actually 20,000 and we were done.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good.

Barry Nalebuff
And what it does is turn negotiation into a collaboration and a data exercise as opposed to an argument.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot, and so I guess what feels radical there is so we’re splitting a pie but the pie we’ve defined very precisely as the $40,000 savings that we uniquely have the opportunity to do because, “I know the house, I’ve lived in the house as tenant, and we don’t have to do all the shopping rounds.” So, that’s the pie that we’re splitting as opposed to simply splitting the difference, which can be a very different concept.

Barry Nalebuff
Completely. So, let’s be clear, you mentioned one part of the pie, which is knowing the house, not having to move. There’s also him not having to fix things up and there’s the $40,000 real estate agent commission. All three of those things are the pie, and what we did is we said her not having to move and him not having to fix things up ends up being awash. So, we call those two things to cancel and we call the rest, the 40,000, what it is that we split.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool.

Barry Nalebuff
And then, having reached an agreement to do that, it was, “Well, okay, we have to hire a lawyer. Rather than each of us hire separate lawyers, it’s going to be a simple deal, let’s just hire one lawyer between the two of us and split the cost of that, so we’ve saved another thousand dollars in the process.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Yeah, wow, that has never occurred to me because I just think of lawyers and adversarial stuff is that, well, if the lawyer is getting paid by both clients, then their incentives are…they’re not more loyal to one than the other so that works fine.

Barry Nalebuff
Basically, said, “Look, we want the fair solution. We want the down-the-road, down-the-middle answer and that’s all good.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay. Cool.

Barry Nalebuff
And this also suggests a different way of negotiating, which is don’t start by talking about price. Don’t even start by talking about interests. Start by discussing how it is you’re going to negotiate and, in particular, say, “You know, I read this book. I listened to this awesome podcast on how to be awesome, and my awesome new way of negotiating is to discuss can we agree to create this large pie and split it. Because if we can agree on that, then from now, all of my interests, all of my focus is going to be on making a big pie, and I don’t have to worry about watching my back.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s cool. So, that’s one of the first things you say is just, “Let’s talk about how we’re going to negotiate. I’d like to take this kind of an approach. What do you think?” Just like that, is that how you’d recommend wording it?

Barry Nalebuff
Well, some people may find that a little bit too straightforward, and so you can always try the humor approach, which is, “What do you say we each act like jerks, lie to each other, try and take as much advantage of each other as possible?” And the other person says, “I’m not so keen about that.” Say, “Me neither. I got this other idea that’s a much better way of doing it.” So, you could have a little bit of throat-clearing, talking about the weather, have a little fun with sort of the why you don’t like the traditional approach, and then ease your way into split the pie.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. And I know you’ve also got a boatload of tactics, and I want to dig into a few of these. But maybe before we do that, I want to address some of the emotional elements when it comes to negotiation. Many of us have a fear associated with asking for more or, “Am I allowed to negotiate?” And so, I’d love to get your take on that. How do we address the…maybe it’s a mindset or fear associated with, “Ooh, I’m just not really comfortable pushing the envelope, asking for too much, don’t want to seem pushy or needy or greedy”? How do you address that?

Barry Nalebuff
Well, first, let me say that a lot has been written about emotions in negotiation, and if you’d like, I am adding a little bit of Mr. Spock. I’m trying to bring a little bit of logic to bear. And one of the things that’s good about bringing logic to negotiation is it takes down the temperature. One of the other lessons we talk about in the book is fight fire with water, don’t fight fire with fire.

And to the extent you can add a principled approach to negotiation, it brings down the temperature, you’ve created a notion of fairness that’s objective in terms of splitting the pie, it doesn’t depend on which side you’re on, and, therefore, it makes it easier because we’re not actually fighting anymore over how we’re going to divide the pie. We’ve agreed on that.

Instead, what we’re working on is cooperative in terms of how to make the pie bigger. So, that’s a sense in which it’s easier to do this because, essentially, I’m asking for things now that are going to work for both of us. I want to try and make that pie as big as possible.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, certainly. That makes good sense. Well, then maybe let’s talk about the application of that in terms of let’s say someone, they got a job offer, and they say, “Okay, this is pretty nice but I’ve heard on the podcast, I’m supposed to negotiate but I feel a little weird about that. If we get all logical and talk about making the pie as big as possible and splitting it, that’s one way to tackle that.” How would you apply this principle, we heard about it in a house? How do we apply it in, say, a job offer situation?

Barry Nalebuff
Let’s also take a step back. Oftentimes, when you’re interviewing for a new job and they’ve given you a position, the negotiation over your salary is really the first time they’re getting to know you. It’s the first confrontational or challenging conversation you may have had, and so appreciate that how you go about this negotiation is really going to be a first impression, if you like.

Now, one point to make is, “Look, I’m negotiating for this job because, guess what, one of my jobs is to negotiate for the company. And if I can’t negotiate it for myself, how am I possibly going to negotiate for you?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I like that.

Barry Nalebuff
And that argument works pretty well if you’re in sales or marketing, perhaps a little less if you’re in accounting, so it may depend on your different position. And then it can be either, “I think I’m going to be awesome at this, and I’m pretty sure you’re going to agree. Can we talk about what type of bonuses are available and how we’re going to measure them, how you capped it in the past, so that if I am as awesome as I expect to be, and you expect me to be, what type of rewards are likely to follow?”

And people, in general, are not scared of or afraid to give you that type of information. They may say, “We haven’t figured out the bonus pool for this year,” and you can say, “Fine. Let me understand the bonus pool for last year. And what are the metrics by which bonuses are determined?”

Another way of making the pie bigger is to understand what leads to the pie getting smaller. And people don’t like to talk about failures, but failures actually help you here. So, one of my favorite questions to ask is, “Can you tell me about cases where you’ve hired people who you thought were going to be awesome and turned out not to work? What went wrong?”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s a powerful question, Barry. I always ask that when I’m keynoting somewhere, it’s like, “Who are some of the other speakers you’ve had? You don’t have to name names if you’re uncomfortable. What went really well and what was disappointing and why?” Because that just surfaces things like you never would’ve thought, like, “Huh, okay. People really don’t like that. Good to know.”

Barry Nalebuff
And it does two things for you. One is you may say, “Oh, I am like that, and so this isn’t going to work, so maybe this is the wrong gig for me. Wrong company, wrong keynote.” Or, you learn, “You know what, I understand that and that problem is not something as an issue for me, never arises for me, and that’s why we’re going to be extra great.” And so, therefore, it’s a way of convincing the other side that there’s actually going to be a bigger pie by having you be their keynote speaker.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s true. It’s like, “No, don’t worry. I’m not going to try to sell the audience on…” well, insert program, “I’m not going to try to sell them on an epic coaching package or DVDs.” I guess people aren’t selling DVDs that much anymore. Maybe in little corners.

Barry Nalebuff
What’s a DVD?

Pete Mockaitis
Have you heard of a DVD, Barry?

Barry Nalebuff
They’re coasters, I think.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Okay, cool. Well, then let’s say we’re in the midst of a negotiation. What are some of the top do’s and don’ts and tactics that you think people should be equipped with?

Barry Nalebuff
One thing I suggest to people is not to say, “No, unless…” and instead say, “Yes, if…” I want the other side to go the extra mile for me. I want them to go above their head, to the head of HR, to the managing director, to somehow stretch themselves in terms of what they’re going to do to bring me on board. The worst thing from their perspective is they do that, and I use this offer to get a higher salary where I currently am, or at some other job I’m negotiating with. They don’t want to be used as a stocking horse. And so, I want to give them the confidence that if they do what I’m asking them to do, my answer is yes. So, that’s a “Yes, if” rather than a “No, unless.”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. I believe your colleague Daylian Cain had a turn of a phrase, like, “Don’t list deal-breakers. List deal-makers.” Like, “Boy, if you could do this for me, ooh, I’m going to say yes on the spot.”

Barry Nalebuff
Exactly, “I want to say yes. And these things will allow me to do it right now.”

Pete Mockaitis
And that just creates a nice bit of excitement as well in terms of…

Barry Nalebuff
We’re trying to get to the same place.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. It’s like, “Ooh.” If someone says that to you, it’s like, “Ooh, I’m in the position to make your day and have this done at the same time,” ooh, what a burst of dopamine all at once. Thank you. Can you share some examples of that in action?

Barry Nalebuff
Well, one of the cases that we had in my own life was a company I started with my former student, Seth Goldman, it’s Honest Tea, and we had a chance to sell that to Coca-Cola. And they had offered us something called a call which is their right to buy the company at a specified price but we didn’t have a put. And the put is our ability to force them to buy it at that price. And we wanted that.

The people we’re negotiating with didn’t have the authority to give that to us. Only the board of directors could do that. But the last thing this team wanted to do was go to the board, get that permission, and then discover there was some other requests we’re going to make, or the price wasn’t high enough, or that Pepsi was going to steal it from underneath them.

And so, what we said is, “If you do this, we are done, done, done. There was no other request. This is what we want. This will seal the deal. We’re ready right now. We’ll sign and you can go and have the board sign on the other side.” And they took it to the board, the board said yes, we were done, done, done, and the deal closed.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Beautiful. All right. So, that’s so great. What else do you got, Barry?

Barry Nalebuff
And to connect it to that is I’m not a big fan of saying no. Now, I’m prepared to say no if what they’re asking me to do is unethical, illegal. Okay, so let’s take those things off the table. But, instead, it’s back to the “Yes, if.” If you’re willing to do this, then I’m prepared to say yes. So, at one point, speaking of keynotes, somebody asked me to give a keynote speech in Seoul, Korea, and the timing could not have been worse.

I’m teaching on Mondays and Wednesdays, which meant I would have to leave Monday night right after my class, fly halfway around the world, be in Korea for eight hours, take the next flight back in order to teach my Wednesday class. I was going to be in eight hours flight, like, “This does not make any sense.” So, I could’ve said no. Instead, I said, “Yes, if you’re prepared to pay this somewhat crazy amount of money. I don’t think I’m worth it but, you know what, it’s not for me to decide. It’s for you to decide.”

Ultimately, they said yes. I flew halfway around the world for six hours. I discovered if you do that, you don’t get jetlag, so it wasn’t as bad as I quite thought, and my daughter learned this trick for me, not to call it trick, tool, when I suggested to her that I would like her to join the high school math team on her list of a hundred favorite things to do, that wasn’t on the list.

And she said yes. She didn’t say no to me. She said, “Yes, if,” “Yes, if we get a dog.” We got a dog, she joined the math team, it was not that well-written contract as I got one year in the math team for 13 years of the dog, but it’s all good. So, another example.

Pete Mockaitis
I love it. And this reminds me when I talking with my wife. So, we were in Chicago and she wanted to move, she’s like, “It’s cold and there’s potholes,” and so she listed these things. And I was like, “Oh, but all my friends in the Chicago area.” And so then, I said, and I didn’t even think it was going to happen because we’ve got two toddlers, and I said, “Well, I can see it working if I could, I don’t know, fly once a month to see all my friends in Chicago,” and she just said, “Yes,” immediately.

And I was surprised, and I was like, “Wait. Just so we’re clear, like three days a month, I will just disappear gallivanting around with my buddies while you are single-handed with two toddlers. You prefer that in another place that’s warmer and maybe near your family than…”

Barry Nalebuff
Maybe she liked having you away for three days a month.

Pete Mockaitis
Maybe she does. But I think one of the powerful pieces to that is you may well be surprised that you think, I’m at, like you said, you asked for an absurd amount of money, you’re like, “There is no way anyone’s going to go for this.” That could surprise you.

Barry Nalebuff
I can’t justify it but it’s not for me to say no. Let them say no.

Pete Mockaitis
That is good.

Barry Nalebuff
What does it take for you to say yes? And then we say people have said no to me in those circumstances. That’s fine. But there’s no real advantage in my saying no because if I say no, we end up with no deal, in which case I have nothing to lose by doing my “Yes, if,” because the worst I end up with is the same place.

Pete Mockaitis
And I like the way you…did you actually say that to the folks in South Korea, “I don’t think I’m worth it but this is up to you to decide”?

Barry Nalebuff
I said that exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, because that’s great because I’ve been in that position a few times where folks have asked me to do a workshop or whatever, and I was like, “Wow, for this actually be worth my while given all I’ve got going on, it would really need to be an outrageous sum of money,” but I kind of feel like a jerk even putting that forward. But that nice little line there, Barry, is golden because it’s like, “No, I don’t think I’m worth,” whatever, 30 grand, “for this but that’s what I will need to do it, so it’s up to you.”

Barry Nalebuff
“But if you feel like it’s worth your budget because of the timescale and schedule and so on, I’m there.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And sometimes it’s true. It’s like sometimes folks have a huge budget and they just want it to be done maybe desperately. I’ve hired DJs at all price points from zero dollars to many thousands. Now, in some ways, they’re doing pretty similar stuff. They’re playing music over audio-video equipment for people to dance to, not to insult the DJs because I know there’s artistry and expertise and craft to it but it’s kind of wild how sometimes that budget really just is there, so go for it.

All right, Barry, this is good stuff. Got some more treats for us like this?

Barry Nalebuff
Sure. One of the things that I’m a big believer in is don’t go crazy with your attempt to anchor somebody. Don’t start off with a super high number if it’s an ask, or a super low number if it’s your offer. There’s a whole branch of economics called behavioral economics which talks about the power of anchoring, the first number somebody hears.

And this goes back to research done by Danny Kahneman and Amos Tversky where they asked people, “How many African countries are there in the United Nations?” And if you first asked them, “Is it above or below 12 or above or below 80?” what they end up thinking changes radically between those two cases.

The problem with anchoring negotiation is twofold. One, if I offer you a miserably low number for your business, your car, your whatever, your job, the person thinks I’m trying to take advantage of them and, therefore, they don’t want to work with me, they don’t like me, and that’s a big problem. If they say, “How did you come up with that number?” And my answer is, “Well, I read in this book that anchoring, the softening somebody up is a really good idea.” That’s not a great justification.

The second problem is that it forces you to make giant movements. So, you offer somebody $2,000 for the car, and they say, “You know, CarMax is willing to buy it from me for 7,200.” You say, “Okay, 7,500.” It’s like, “Wait a second. You just offered me two, now you’re up to 7500. What’s going on here?” And if I say, “Look, I think the right number is 9,000, and you say 7500 is the largest I can pay, it’s like you just made us a $5,000 movement. What do you mean that’s the last thing you can do?”

So, if you start by trying to anchor at a number that’s far away, you both insult the other side and you show that you’re like jelly, that you have no principles in terms of what you’re doing, and, therefore, you will be flexible. You will be like Gumby.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s true. And I also imagine, thinking about the African countries in the UN example, like if you were to ask, “Is it more or less than 5,000?” It’s sort of like that question is so nutty, I don’t know the psychology behind it. Studies have been done here. Let me know, Barry. Like, I’d say that number is so nutty, it doesn’t even factor…it doesn’t even sway me. It’s like, “Huh.”

Barry Nalebuff
Actually, the crazy thing is that when people ask whether Einstein first came to the United States before or after 1412, the year of the Magna Carta or something. It’s like it turns out that has an impact which is just insane versus whether or not he came to the United States before or after 1990, I don’t know, the year of Beastie Boys or something.

So, even absurd anchors can actually have this impact but the insulting feature. Like, when Trump negotiated with President Nieto of Mexico, and said, “You’re going to pay for the whole wall.” The Mexican president canceled his visit to the United States because he was insulted by it, he didn’t even want to begin the negotiation. So, anchoring is different in negotiation because it sends a signal to the other side.

Pete Mockaitis
Right. That’s good. Well, could you give us a third tidbit, Barry, that leaps to mind?

Barry Nalebuff
Sure. I think that people are too afraid of revealing information that they try and keep things hidden. So, I’ll turn the tables with you a little bit on this one.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I’m afraid to reveal information, Barry.

Barry Nalebuff
Yeah. Alice and Bob are negotiating and Friday is the deadline for both of them. If they don’t reach an agreement by Friday at 5:00 p.m., there is no deal to be done. However, Bob has a secret deadline of Wednesday at 5:00. Bob knows this, Alice does not. Should Bob reveal that deadline to Alice?

Pete Mockaitis
I see pros and cons but I’m leaning to…I almost think you have to if Alice is just going to slow-play and just be like, “Okay, yeah, I’ll think about that.” I don’t know if you’re in the same room or building or whatever, but if you’re like emailing and calling back and forth, and it’s Wednesday 2:00 p.m., and Alice is like, “Oh, thanks, Bob. I’ll think this over tonight,” and Bob is like, “Oh, no, you can’t.” That seems like a really dangerous place to be. So, I’m inclined to share it at some point, maybe not the very beginning, but some point before Wednesday 4:00 p.m. Alice probably needs to be made aware of that.

Barry Nalebuff
Yeah, I love your Alice voice there. So, I’m totally with you on this, which is, “What is Alice’s deadline? It isn’t Friday at 5:00. It’s Wednesday at 5:00.”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s her true deadline, yeah.

Barry Nalebuff
That’s her true deadline except she doesn’t know it because Alice’s deadline is the same as Bob’s deadline. And so, I think Bob should say right up front, “You know, Alice, I’ve got some bad news for you, that I really have to be done by Wednesday at 5:00, which means you have to be done by Wednesday at 5:00, so let’s stop screwing around and get cracking.”

And people think, “Oh, my God, this is bad news, therefore, I can’t reveal it. I had to somehow keep it hidden. It’s going to put me in a weak position because I’ve got this earlier deadline.” And, actually, it only puts you on a weak position if you keep it hidden. And people have this whole view of, like I said, the Miranda Rights, anything you say can and will be used against you, so they either keep silent or they tell white lies but they don’t reveal things that are essential to having this agreement happen.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good stuff. Barry, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Barry Nalebuff
I’m not a giant fan of verbal jiu jitsus but here’s one that I think is helpful. Asking somebody where they are least flexible as opposed to asking them where they are most flexible. So, if you’re negotiating a job and you’re thinking about, well, there’s wages, there’s bonuses, there’s equity, saying, “Where are you most flexible?” the person doesn’t really want to answer that question for you. It’s scary.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, “Why would I tell you that?”

Barry Nalebuff
“I don’t want to tell you that.” If I asked you, “Where are you least flexible?” they’re happy to tell you that because they’re saying, “Don’t ask me this.”

Pete Mockaitis
“That’s fair. Like, I can’t give you equity any farther. We got a lot of people with their hands in the cookie jar. I can’t give you any more than this, so I’m least flexible there.”

Barry Nalebuff
So, basically, they are pleased to be able to tell you about something which is something they don’t have the power to give you. Now, when they say they’re least flexible on this, what is it telling you? They’re more flexible on everything else, and, therefore, you’ve learned where they’re flexible by asking them where they are least flexible. So, you get the information in a much safer, friendlier environment.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. All right. Well, now, can you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Barry Nalebuff
I’m a big fan of “Often wrong, never in doubt.” So, essentially, having some confidence in what you’re doing but also realizing that maybe you’re not correct. And so, both looking for evidence that’s proving yourself wrong but not second-guessing yourself all along the way.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Barry Nalebuff
Well, we did an experiment on the pie where we gave parties who were traditionally viewed as less powerful, some information about what the pie wasn’t in a negotiation. Like, for example, telling them in the house case, “Hey, there’s this $40,000 real estate commission,” and it turns out that doing so moved people dramatically away from proportional division into splitting the pie. And so, what was remarkable is we didn’t even have to give both sides this information. Giving what was traditionally viewed as the weaker side, information about the pie, allowed them to persuade the other side.

So, if you go back, there was this famous experiment by Ellen Langer about Xerox machines, and asking people, “Can I jump in line and make a copy?” And what she found is that asking with a reason beat just asking. And the pie is a great reason, it’s a principled approach and it really is able to move the other side.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite book?

Barry Nalebuff
I’m a big fan of biographies. I’m currently reading the biography of Ulysses S. Grant by Ron Chernow, and it is fantastic. I had no idea, in the end, what a remarkable leader Grant was in such challenging times. This is a man who would fail at just about everything he had done until he succeeded at everything he did.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Barry Nalebuff
Well, I have to say this Yeti Blue Microphone is definitely making my life a whole lot easier these days. And so, I’m a big fan of the various ways…I mean, I’ve got ring lights. I’ve been doing so much teaching online. And the combination of having a big screen, ring lights, Yetis, actually, it’s great. I can see chats. I can have my students all ask questions that are better than having people raise their hands because now I can have 20 people asking things at the same time, not just one. So, this online teaching stuff is actually pretty good. So, Zoom, Yeti, ring lights, bring them on.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Barry Nalebuff
I think we should have addictions in life that are healthy addictions as opposed to bad addictions. And my healthy addiction is table tennis.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote back to you often?

Barry Nalebuff
Well, as an entrepreneur, I spend a lot of time trying to convince people not to go into entrepreneurship. And partly is if I can convince you not to do it, then you shouldn’t be doing it because you have to have so much of a passion, so much of a belief into it, so many obstacles along the way that it has to be a force that’s propelling you. You have to really care about what it is that you’re trying to create and it’s not something you just go into lightly. So, therefore, real entrepreneurs don’t need encouragement, if you like.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Barry Nalebuff
SplitThePieBook.com has excerpts, has some videos, they can watch negotiations. There’s even a negotiation bot that you can play and see how well you do in an automated game. There’s a free online course on Coursera. It has over 400,000 people who’d taken it, actually are taking it now, 4.9 out of 5.0 rating so it doesn’t get much better than that. And, of course, the book Split the Pie, which is available everywhere.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Barry Nalebuff
Figure out what it’s going to take to make the pie bigger, not just figure out what it is that you’re going to do to get more of the pie. And to the extent that you’re known as a person who’s out there creating large pies, everyone is going to want to work with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Barry, this has been fun. I wish you many large pies.

Barry Nalebuff
I wish you gigantic pies, and thank you for helping bake one with me today.