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Ida del Mundo

Aug 08
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985: Boosting Confidence and Slashing Anxiety through Great Boundaries with Abby Medcalf

By | Podcasts | One Comment

Abby Medcalf discusses how to set firm boundaries and keep negativity from ruining your day.

You’ll Learn

  1. What most people get wrong about boundaries 
  2. How to stop others from hijacking your mood
  3. A trick for dealing with people who are nasty to you

About Abby

Abby Medcalf is a Relationship Maven, psychologist, author, podcast host and Tedx speaker who has helped thousands of people think differently so they can create connection, ease and joy in their relationships (especially the one with yourself)! With her unique background in both business and counseling, she brings a fresh, effective perspective to life’s struggles using humor, research and her direct, no-nonsense style.

With over 35 years of experience, Abby is a recognized authority and sought-after speaker at organizations such as Google, Apple, AT&T, Kaiser, PG&E, American Airlines and Chevron. She’s been a featured expert on CBS and ABC news, and has been a contributor to the New York Times, Women’s Health, Psychology Today, Well+Good and Bustle.

She’s the author of the #1 Amazon best-selling book, “Be Happily Married, Even if Your Partner Won’t Do a Thing,” as well as the newly released Boundaries Made Easy, and the host of the top-rated “Relationships Made Easy” Podcast now in over 170 countries.

Resources Mentioned

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Abby Medcalf Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Abby, welcome.

Abby Medcalf
Hey, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to hear some insights on boundaries. Could you kick us off with a particularly surprising, shocking, stunning discovery you’ve made about boundaries that really dazzles people? No pressure, Abby.

Abby Medcalf
No pressure at all. I would say this, that most people think they’re setting boundaries and they’re not. I think we throw that word around a lot. So, I’ll hear things like, “Well, I told the person I didn’t like what they were doing and they needed to stop.” That’s not a boundary. Or, “I told them that I feel really uncomfortable when you talk to me that way. I said that to this person and they kept saying whatever they were saying.” It’s not a boundary to tell someone how you feel. It’s not a boundary to tell someone that you don’t like what they’re doing. That’s not a boundary. So that’s what you’re doing wrong probably first.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, right from the get-go. So, you’re expressing something like, “Hey, I don’t like that. I would like for it to be different.” So then, what is a boundary and how does that sound?

Abby Medcalf
So, the boundary would be “Hey, I don’t like how you’re talking to me. You’re going to need to stop, or I’m going…” and then you have to have what I call teeth or a response if the boundary is not kept. So, not a consequence, you’re not punishing anyone. You are just letting them know what will happen, and there has to be something that happens, and you have to do it, “Or I will leave the meeting,” “Or I will hang up,” “Or I will block you.”

I hope it’s not block. I don’t like people taking very drastic measures, but you want to do something. You have to be clear that, “This is what I’m going to do, period.” So, like, I’ll have someone who says, “Well, I’ve told people not to email me, you know, that my day ends at 7:00. I’ve been very clear, and they keep doing it.” And it’s like, “Well, don’t answer the email then.”

Like, it’s not anyone else’s job to hold your boundary. It is your job. And most people get angry that other people aren’t holding their boundary, but they themselves aren’t holding their boundary. So, really, how are you angry at other people when you’re not even doing it? So, it needs to be on you. You’re not a victim. I get a lot of victim-talk, which is not my favorite, and I talk a lot about that on my own podcast and in my last book.

You’re not a victim in life. You really need to stand up. You need to say what you’re going to do, and then you need to do it. I also say, never repeat a boundary. Once you’ve set your boundary, you just have to do whatever it is at that point.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, we’re in the thick of it right away. I love it. Thank you.

Abby Medcalf

I’m jumping right in.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, could you tell us then, I guess I’m curious, boundaries, they sound handy. So, you gave us a bit of a definition, is that your official textbook line?

Abby Medcalf

You know, yeah, there’s a few lines. Really to understand boundaries, you have to understand that nobody is responsible for how you feel, what you say, or what you do, and that you are not responsible for what anyone else says or does or thinks. And once you get that, because I think the thing I get asked the most is, “Well, how do I talk to my boss and they don’t get upset?” or, “How do I talk to a co-worker so that they don’t get mad at me?” and you can’t.

There is no answer to that. There is no perfect way. You could say the most perfect thing in the most perfect way. We’ve all done it, right? You’ve done it. I’ve done it. We’ve trained ourselves and gone in with all the good tools, and then the person still gets upset. It’s because it’s about them, not you. And so, you have to get rid of that. All you can do is focus on having integrity in the way you speak, speaking.

I call it speaking from love, not fear, like from the compassion part of your brain, and that’s what boundaries really are. I always say boundaries are love, walls are fear. Boundaries are meant to keep people in, they’re meant to keep our relationships moving. Walls are meant to keep people out. And that’s the big difference.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Thank you. Well, so we’re going to dig into a lot of the how-to and the nuances and the verbiage of how this is done. But maybe, could you paint a picture for us, perhaps an inspiring story or some data that would give us a clue as to just how important, useful, transformative, delightful can boundaries be?

Abby Medcalf

I’ve been doing these 40 years, and I work in organizations, and I work with executives, and I work with regular people just in their life. So, whether this is at work or home or anywhere, if you feel at all resentful in your life or helpless or hopeless, you don’t have boundaries where you should, and you’re not holding them.

So, if you want to have peace of mind, boundaries are the answer to feel more peaceful in your life, to have more connection, to have more love in your life, to have more efficacy, to feel more productive. You know how much more productive you are when you have boundaries? It’s unbelievable. 

When you hold the boundaries, what happens is your self-esteem is absolutely raised because you are having greater self-efficacy. You are doing what you say. And in my experience, as I work with people putting out boundaries and holding them, is that they get promotions, they leave jobs and get better ones, they save their relationships in different ways in their personal lives. I mean, your life will become exponentially better once you learn to have them and to hold them. It’s truly the answer to a lot of what you’ve been looking for.

Pete Mockaitis

Exponentially better, the answer. I like it.

Abby Medcalf

Exponentially.

Pete Mockaitis

Can you give us a particular story?

Abby Medcalf

A very simple one is when you say, you decide what your communication strategy will be at work. I think that’s the place that people get the most out of whack. We know from the research that people are working about 50 minutes longer. We know that the days are stretched.

And we know this from emails and when people are answering things and all kinds of different data. But basically, you’re having a longer day, and that’s a problem.

There’s a lot. of wonderful things about remote work and how we’re doing things now that I love, like, people can see a coach or a therapist in the middle of the day, things that you normally couldn’t have done before. There’s a lot of positive things, but the negative things are that folks don’t know when to say, “That’s enough,”

So, one of the simplest things you can do is announce how people can contact you. If you call me on my phone and you got my voicemail, it says, “Don’t leave a message.” It says, “I don’t listen here. If you want to get me more directly, you have to email me and it gets in my email.” So, right there, that’s a boundary. That’s a very simple one, “I’m not going to answer.” That’s the response you’re going to get.

But if you just did something very simple, I answer my emails twice a day. I have set times. People know that. I make sure that’s out in the world when I’m doing a project with a group or whoever, I’m like, “Here’s when I look at emails, these two times a day. And if you need something more immediate, depending on who I’m working with,” it might be Slack or Teams or something else, right?

But when you start to just be clear about, “Oh, I don’t work after 6:00,” or “I don’t work after 5:00,” when you just start to be really clear, that is your first step in the boundary world. But what I have found is that when I’m thinking, like, he was a middle management that I had who was feeling very, which I think is really common, feeling really pulled. His supervisor wanted more, his subordinates wanted more, everybody wanted more of his time. And I think anyone listening knows what that feels like, that your time, everybody’s looking for it.

And he started to really do the things I was asking him to do, and the number one thing I have is a lot of scheduling. Scheduling is my favorite boundary. You know Jim Rohn, I’m sure, like the wonderful Jim Rohn. He always said, “Run the day or the day runs you,” right? Success is scheduled. And so, even that, like when you think about, “Oh, I put boundaries on my time and I’m very clear because I do not answer,” that’s the response if you go outside of that. “But I schedule in when I’m doing things.”

And so, I really got him to schedule more. I got him to, we really talked more. He was always working on something, and he had 50 projects all kind of going, and I was like, “Stop working on things and finish things. So, give yourself an hour to do whatever this thing is that you have to do, or a half hour. Set a timer, do it, and then whatever’s done is done, and then move it along to the next thing.” When you even give yourself those personal boundaries, like, “That’s it. I’m going to end at this time with whatever this is,” you’re more productive.

Anyway, we worked together for about six months, and just from scheduling and creating boundaries around his time like that, he started being a house of fire. He started being so productive. He was also just happier. He felt more in control of his day. I think that sort of took over too, but he got a very coveted position he’d been looking for about two years, after about six months of us working together where I was helping him speak more directly to a supervisor, having boundaries there, asking for what he needed.

People are afraid, “If I set a boundary I’ll get fired,” that’s what I hear the most. And I have to tell you that has not been my experience. I’ve been doing this for 40 years. I’ve been very focused on boundaries for about 15 of those 40. I have yet to have someone fired for a boundary.

Pete Mockaitis

Not once out of hundreds, thousands.

Abby Medcalf

Not once.

Pete Mockaitis

Zero.

Abby Medcalf

Literally, thousands of people I’ve worked with. I have had people, I will say this, like, have a relationship with the boss get more contentious, or a supervisor or a coworker get more contentious because of the boundaries, that’ll happen for sure. Usually, that resolves itself, but I’ve had a few instances where it doesn’t.

But what’s happened is my client has gotten to understand like, “Oh, I don’t want to be at this job. Like, I don’t want to be somewhere where I can’t have a boundary. Like, this isn’t how I want to work anymore. And because I’m not productive in these environments, I don’t feel happy. I’m not satisfied.”

And you know this better than anybody with all the work, you know, with everybody you interview. If we’re not satisfied at work, it’s so much of our lives, what are we doing? So, I’ve had people realize from setting boundaries that they had to leave their job. They had to start really seriously courting another position or getting out of the system they were in completely, which I also see as success, because at the end of the day, you’re still happier and more content.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, so let’s really dig into this statement here, “I am not responsible for whatever someone else does or thinks or says.” And it feels like, I mean, you’re the boundary expert, but, to me, this feels like the holy grail of boundaries. Because if I could really believe that, and have that deep in my bones, and to be true such that I feel a sense of peace amidst whatever reacting rage or whatever someone else is putting out there, then it feels like I’ve won the whole game. That’s my perception. Does that feel accurate, Abby?

Abby Medcalf

It’s 100% accurate. And I would say, for every human, this is the hardest thing.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. So, well, it sounds like we’re on the same page, but we’re going to really drill into this a lot. So, first, let’s see, not to play philosopher here, but let’s push the boundaries of this definition a smidge. So, let’s just say I say something to you. This is just a role play. Let’s say, “Abby, you are botching this interview and it’s terrible.”

So, let’s just say I say something kind of rude. That’s not how I really feel. So, I say that, and then you, so, let’s say you react sharply, and maybe yell at me, and then I feel bad, and I think, “Oh, boy, Abby is really upset, and I guess I probably shouldn’t have said that to her.”

So, I guess in a way here, I guess I am somewhat responsible for my own. I’m reflecting on my own actions, and saying, “Hmm, those comments I said were probably not…I probably didn’t deliver those in the ideal manner.” So, I may feel some remorse or guilt or regret associated with my behavior, although your reaction is kind of what got me there.

Abby Medcalf

It’s not justified. No, no, no, no. no.

Pete Mockaitis

What’s not justified?

Abby Medcalf

It’s not justified that I have an angry upset reaction to you criticizing me, let’s say, or what I consider criticism. This idea we all have that, “Other people make me upset, or drive me crazy, or up,” that is your choice all the time. I can sit in traffic with my husband, and because I’m from New York City, and he’s from upstate New York, we have very different ideas of what the traffic is. He gets upset, I don’t, and it’s not because of the traffic. We’re sitting in the same car in the same traffic. It is because of my beliefs about the traffic. Do you know what I’m saying?

That’s what’s getting you upset. So, that’s the same thing. It doesn’t matter what you say to me. You feel the way you think, and you are in charge of your thoughts and you have to be in charge of your thoughts, and we know this is the basis of all therapy, is cognitive behavioral therapy, is that we change how you think to change how you feel.

So, a great reframe we know, we talk about cognitive reframing, my favorite and my favorite quote probably ever that I say a lot to myself and others is, “Life is happening for me not to me.” And so, if I thought that, and you said that, I might think to myself, “Oh, I really should ask more questions before I get interviewed,” or, “Oh, what is he…?” or maybe, “Oh, my God, what if Pete’s having a bad day? I wonder if he’s okay.” There are a hundred things I could think or choose to do besides get mad at you and react. Always.

Pete Mockaitis

Yes, and likewise.

Abby Medcalf

Yes, and likewise the way you talk to me, right?

Pete Mockaitis

Right.

Abby Medcalf

But that’s the point. That’s the point.

Pete Mockaitis

And so, I guess it’s true that in this demonstration example, I had some beliefs, and I guess we’d have to do some feels, dive deep to see what they are.

Abby Medcalf

Well, I could do a little psychological work with you there, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis

In terms of, like, “Oh, if people are upset with me, it means I’ve done something wrong.” Maybe that’s a belief. It doesn’t quite sound right.

Abby Medcalf

It’s most people do. Like, that’s what you think.

Pete Mockaitis

But I’ve got a belief in the ballpark of that belief, I think, in terms of, it’s like, “If someone is upset with me, there is a chance that I have done something wrong.” And in some ways, this learning comes from, I guess, life experience in terms of, you know, often as children, we genuinely misbehave, break the rules, are naughty, according to some definition or standard or rubric, and then receive discipline from teachers or coaches or parents or whomever. And so then, we have some learnings that suggest, in fact, “If I’m being scolded or someone’s upset with me, I may have done wrong.” So, if that’s a big one inside us, how do we unpack it?

Abby Medcalf

Again, but there’s a lot of times when people are upset with us and we’ve done nothing wrong.

Pete Mockaitis

Yes, indeed.

Abby Medcalf

Because that’s the day they’re having. And I would say that’s always the case, and what the hell does wrong even mean? If I spill milk because I’m a kid, is that wrong? No, I’m learning how to pour milk. If I fall down when I’m learning to walk, is that wrong? No, I’m learning. So even that idea that we can decide what’s right or wrong, I have issue with.

So, as we’re older, really what people are afraid of is “Other people not liking me, other people rejecting or abandoning me.” This is DNA, getting thrown out of the clan stuff for millions of years ago. And this conflict avoidance, I find, has become, and I think it’s way worse since the pandemic. It’s always been an issue, but it’s a huge issue, this people-pleasing, wanting others to like us, and thinking that being nice means not having boundaries, and that it’s mean to have boundaries. And that’s the big lie that, you know, wrong, faulty belief, faulty logic that people are working from, and we have to shift that.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And so, how does one? So, I guess, here I’m thinking about back to our scenario. I guess for me, since I am all about sort of learning growth and all that stuff and helping people and compassion, I think my “ideal response” would be not so much an emotional one of guilt, shame, sadness, but rather a curious introspective, I was like, “Boy, Abby, really got upset there. Hmm.”

Abby Medcalf

Yeah, “What’s that about?”

Pete Mockaitis

“Might I have communicated that differently or better?” So, I’m not blaming myself, but I’m taking that input as a prompt for reflection without the shame, blame, guilt, yuckiness. And I might conclude, “Okay, next time I’m going to deliver the feedback a little bit differently, and I think that’ll serve both of us better.” And that just feels like a healthy process that feels way less yucky, but we get to the same place.

Abby Medcalf

And that’s why I say boundaries are love and walls are fear. We block people, we cut them off when we’re afraid, but boundaries really are, again, meant to keep people in. We’re trying to create a relationship with them. But I would even say that self-reflection, like, “Oh, I could have said that better,” you know, even that, I would step back even further, and sort of go, “Wow, Abby’s having quite the reaction to that. I seem to have hit a nerve.”

Yes, I could look at myself, for sure, like, be self-reflective, but I could also have compassion for Abby, like, “Wow, I wonder what’s going on there?” because again, I have a choice how I react to that information. So, “Wow, this is really a trigger for her.” If you told me I was, you know, I’m 5’9″, so I’m relatively tall for, I guess, a female. And if someone said, “You’re so short. What’s wrong? You’re so short. You should grow.” If someone said something like that to me, of course, I’d be like, “They’re crazy.” Like, I wouldn’t react to it. I wouldn’t be upset.

But if someone is saying something to me that I think is true, that’s when you get upset. If someone comments on something else, says, you know, I’m old. Maybe if they said, “Oh, she looks really old,” I might be like, “Oh, God, that hurt,” because it feels like something I’m aware of. And that’s the thing to remember, it’s always about us. If someone yelled something to me in Swahili, I don’t know what it means, so I’m not getting upset because I don’t know what they’re saying. Like, it’s really not about the words coming at us. It is about what we understand of them, what we believe about them, what we don’t believe, and that gauges our reaction to it.

If I think I’m going to lose our relationship, if I think it’s going to damage my reputation, I don’t know, like, there’s a lot of things at stake, that make that up. But you know, and you know, I don’t know, you’ve been doing this a while. Like, I get nasty comments under my YouTube videos sometimes or to my podcast or something. And I’m really, thank God, the overwhelming is positive. Really, I have that first initial, like, “Oh, God, I can’t believe someone’s complaining when I’m giving free information. They’ve got to be kidding me. Aargh!”

I’ll do that for a second and then it’s like, “Oh, this poor person. Like, who are they that they’re so mad that there was a commercial in the free, amazing content they were getting? Or that I talked in the beginning, and I introduced Pete, or whatever, you know, too long to them, ‘I had to wait two minutes till you started to get into the…’” you know.

It’s like, “Wow, this poor person, what are they doing?” And I really do feel that. I think, “Oh,” and I try to send a prayer. I never respond, and I just try to send a prayer to them. But, like, that’s a choice that I’m making all the time of how I’m viewing it. So, people do say really nasty things to me sometimes, and maybe to you sometimes, but it’s a choice. about how we respond. It’s always a choice, 100% of the time.

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah, that’s really intriguing in terms of, like, we could hear all kinds of things and some of them won’t trigger us or fluster us in the least, like, “Pete, I think your shirt is dumb.” It’s like, “Okay, whatever. I don’t know.”

Abby Medcalf

Sure. Exactly. Right?

Pete Mockaitis

And yet, there could be another context in which it’s like, “You know, Pete, I am shocked that you didn’t take the time to dress appropriately for this event. It seems like you don’t care and you’re not taking this seriously. This is very unprofessional.” And then I’d be more prone to take that personally because I’m like, “Oh, well, I do care about this, and I do care about that person, and I do care about this event. But it just didn’t occur to me that it was business casual. No one told me that.”

Abby Medcalf

But can I actually even, like, to me, that wouldn’t be wrong? Can I even give you, like, to me, the boundary, when someone’s talking to me that way is, I try to be curious and understand, I’m like, “Oh, what is it about when people aren’t dressed the way you think that has you thinking they don’t care? Because, wow, I deeply care, and I have a different idea about how I dress, conveying how I care. I feel like the care is in my words and in my showing up and in my time, for me. What is it for you? Tell me more. Like, what other ways do you not feel heard or seen? Or what other ways do you feel like people don’t care?”

I would want to really want to have a conversation about that, and that’s a boundary I have that I want to lean in to conversations. So, if you have somebody at work who’s really upset with you, let’s say, or is acting nasty to you for some reason, you know how that can be, like for no apparent reason, and, really, it’s incredible, and I’ve had people practice this. I’m telling you it works, is to stop and say something.

Go like, “Are we okay?” But not angrily, with the compassion and the curiosity. “Are we okay? You seem real mad at me.” And I do it in meeting, I do it all the time, and I actually can think. I’m working with a group of vice presidents right now, and the one guy does not like me. He just doesn’t like me. You know, not everybody likes you. He doesn’t like that I’m there. He thinks they’re paying me way too much money. He thinks it’s a waste of time, and he subtly tries to undermine sometimes.

And so, in the meeting, I’ll just, and again, not in a… I’m just like, “You know, I’m not sure what to do. It feels like there’s a lot of anger coming towards me. I’m not sure how to make this work with how angry you are.” And he started to say, the first time I did it, he was like, “I’m not angry. I’m just trying to make a point.” And he, you know, as people do sometimes. And I said, “Okay. Well, how do you feel like we’re connected right now? Do you really like what I’m saying? On a scale of one to six…” one to six is my favorite, by the way, for feedback, because people, there’s no middle, so they have to give you one side or the other.

I said, “On a scale of one to six, six, I’m doing an amazing job, you’re so happy to be here, you love what’s going on, and, one, you think I suck and this meeting sucks, where would you put it?” And he hemmed and hawed for a while, and I pushed and pushed, and finally he said, “Well, I guess a two.” And I said, “Oh, all right. So maybe I’m picking up on that two energy. Maybe you’re not mad. Maybe I’m probably,” I’m saying an emotion, “What are you feeling? Like, what is happening? How can we move forward?” And you start being curious and asking questions and naming what’s going on.

And I’m telling you, when you have those kinds of boundaries, I have a boundary that people, I don’t allow people, I don’t allow the thing to go unsaid. I’m going to say the thing. If someone’s mad or angry or passive-aggressive, I’m going to address it, that’s a boundary I have. I will not sit in the lie. To me, it’s sitting in a lie. But I also am a kind, compassionate person. So, I’m not going to be like, “What the F is wrong with you?”

Pete Mockaitis

“What’s your problem, dude?”

Abby Medcalf

Yeah, “What’s your problem, Bob?”

Pete Mockaitis

“Stop being a jerk.”

Abby Medcalf

Exactly. And I always say, “Would you rather be correct or effective because you can’t be both?” So, if you want to be correct all day and call him a jerk, God bless and good luck with that. But I want to be effective. So, I’m going to ask questions, I’m going to ask collaborative questions, “Could you tell me more about…?” is probably my favorite question whenever we’re dealing with just communication and boundaries, and trying to get to what is,“Could you tell me more about that? Like, what does that mean to you? Could you tell me more?”

And when people start to give you those answers, we start to connect. When we show an interest in where people are, instead of trying to drag them where we are, I go to where they are. I try to understand, go in trying to learn something, not prove something, that old adage, you know. So here I am in that meeting trying to learn something, I’m not trying to prove to Bob that he should like me and how we are. I’m trying to try to learn something, like, “How does Bob tick? And what exact…?”

Sometimes, Bob doesn’t like that I’m female. I can’t do much about that, right? You know, like he doesn’t like maybe, you know, I’ve had that. They don’t like a woman telling them what to do. I’m Jewish and I’m very out about that. Some people hate Jews, you know, it happens. And so, there’s not much there, but I can still try to figure out a way that there might be a way to connect, and sometimes there’s not, but that’s what I’m going to do.

Because no matter what he’s doing, I’m not going to change my boundaries, that I’m a kind, compassionate person who’s curious and asks questions. And that’s the big mistake people make. If someone’s mean to them, they slam the door and they change their boundary. And if someone’s nice to them, then they collapse the boundary. You don’t want to do that. You don’t want to change your boundaries depending on what other people are doing.

Pete Mockaitis

I got you. And, Abby, I’m curious, I think some listeners right now is like, “Wow, Abby’s like a super, super woman, super woman, wonder woman. I want to be like her.” Tell me, have you always been like this or did you have any transformational aha moments that shifted you into this spot?

Abby Medcalf

Yeah, many. I think I’ve had many transformational aha moments. Some of it is just getting older, and I will say that. I don’t know, my 30-year-old self, who’s trying to prove herself in businesses and with these executives and all that, I didn’t feel the confidence I feel now, obviously, you know, at 60, that I did at 30. That’s different. But there is a space. I mean, I think in some ways I’m lucky. You know, I’m a recovering drug addict, which I talk about a lot. I’m a recovering heroin addict.

And one of the things you learn as you’re getting clean is that you’ve got to start being honest. You have to start saying the thing. And what I found over time, through my own therapy and coaching, I’ve done all the things, I’ve walked on hot coals with Anthony Robbins back in 1980.

Pete Mockaitis

I did that, too.

Abby Medcalf

1986, yeah. You know I’ve done EST with Warren Erhard and, you know, Life Spring, yeah. I’ve done them all. And I was on a path to try to figure out how to be more authentic, and how to speak the truth. And what I found is that I just really want to connect with people.

When you’re in counseling school, they teach you that every interaction should be therapeutic. Every interaction is a chance to be a therapeutic interaction, and that’s how I like, even if I’m at the checkout line at the grocery store, that’s how I like to think about it. Like, this could be, you know, I say hi, I make eye contact. I say, “How’s your day going?” I connect.

Because every time, it’s an opportunity to be authentically connected to people, and the more you practice it, the better you get. And the more you realize that you can tell people the truth from a loving heart, again, not trying, you got to follow the rules. Do you want to be correct or effective? You’re trying to learn something, not prove something, right? You have to go in curious. If you don’t go in curious, people pick up.

One of my favorite bits of research is from Timothy Wilson. It’s in one of my favorite books called Strangers to Ourselves, but he’s a very famous sociologist. Malcolm Gladwell loves him, so now he’s been getting some good press through him. But one of the best pieces of research I ever read was his, and it’s that our conscious brains process information at a rate of 40 bits per second, while our subconscious brains, or what we psychologists call your unconscious, our unconscious brains process information at a rate of 11 million bits per second. So, people don’t hear what you say, they hear what you mean.

So, if I’m in that meeting, and I know that Bob hates me, and I’m not saying anything, and I’m just getting frustrated and irritated, even if all my language is, “Well, Bob, please, I’d really love to hear what you have to say,” and I’m doing that, Bob knows I’m full of crap. Just like every single person listening knows that someone has said something to them at work, and they were saying all the right things, and in your head you’re like, “This person is full of it. I don’t believe a thing they’re saying.”

And you can’t say why, you just know. It’s the 11 million bits. So, that is always at work, and I know it’s always at work, so I am working hard to align that 40 and that 11. Do you know what I’m saying? That’s what I’m doing.

Pete Mockaitis

And so then, you’re just saying it’s like, “Hey, Bob, you seem really angry about this. What’s going on?” And then they’re…

Abby Medcalf

“What’s going on? Like, what is it? Are you okay? Are you afraid of change? Like, let’s talk about it. Are you worried about losing your job? Like, what’s the fear? Let’s get there so we can talk about that for real.” And I will tell you, people start to say, “Oh, well, people like you have come in before, and next thing I know, Jane gets fired.” And it’s like, “Oh.” They’ll tell you.

When you start asking, people will tell you, not directly, but they’ll tell you. And then we can talk about that, it’s like, “Oh, do you feel some firing is going to happen? Is that what you’re thinking I’m here for maybe?” And people will get real. They’ll say, “Well, what else are you doing?” “Like, do you want to ask me some questions about what I’m doing? Maybe I haven’t been clear up front. Or maybe I was clear, but your fears overrode the clarity, so let’s do it again. What do you need to hear from me to feel better? What could I say?”

One of my favorite questions to ask is, “If there’s one thing I could say to you right now that would help you have faith in this process, what would it be?” And I’m like, “If I was going to give you a million dollars, Bob, I know you, you’re like, ‘I don’t know’” I’m like, “No, if I was going to give you a million bucks, come on, what would it be? Could anyone else here tell me? If you were to have more faith in this process, what would it be?” That’s a conversation you want to have. That’s team building. That’s coming together. That’s connection.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, so, Abby, what I love is that, like, fundamentally, this takes a grounding of courage, belief, self-confidence, because, I mean, you probably hear about some hardcore stuff, like, “That you won’t take a penny of fees from us until you get all, deliver all the promised results?” I don’t know, like, you’ll probably hear some hardcore stuff, and you’re ready for it.

Abby Medcalf

I do. I am.

Pete Mockaitis

So, tell me, when it comes to beliefs, let’s say we’ve zeroed in on some beliefs associated with, “I need to please people. If people don’t like me, there’s something wrong with me. I’m going to be rejected.” So, let’s say we’ve zeroed in on a belief. We know it’s there. Now what?

Abby Medcalf

Now what? Well, now you do some therapy. No, I’m just kidding. So, now, your job is to practice it. So, you have self-awareness. I speak a lot on my podcast and on my website, I have a lot of free stuff about this, about being more mindful. And when I started doing mindfulness, we called it attention training it’s learning to train your attention. When you’re mindful and in a moment, you can notice what you’re doing and what’s happening.

So that’s the first thing is you have to get more mindful and be in your moment. You have to practice that more. So, you can do something simple like setting a reminder on your phone for three times a day, and when it goes off, anytime you want, 9:00 a.m., 2:00 in the afternoon, and 8:00 at night. I don’t care. And when it goes off, all you do is just check in and notice how you were feeling. And good and fine are not feelings. Okay is not a feeling.

It’s, like, to truly identify, people kind of suck at how they feel. So, to really think like, “Oh, yeah, I’m in the meeting, I’m a little anxious. I kind of want to say something but I’m afraid people will laugh or…” whatever. You’ll start to notice what your thoughts and feelings are. This is step one. And, by the way, mindfulness is different than self-awareness.

Self-awareness is judgmental. Like, I’m very controlling, I’m very self-aware of that, and so I judge that, right? I don’t want to be as controlling. Mindfulness is noticing what you’re thinking or doing in a moment without judgment, with no judgment. That’s the difference. And so, I’m self-aware that I’m controlling, but sometimes I’m not mindful that I’m doing it. it. Does that make sense? I just want to be clear.

Like, I hear a lot of people say, “Oh, I’m very self-aware.” It’s like, “Nah, you’re mixing them up.” And by the way, Tasha Eurich has done a lot of research on self-awareness, something like 85% of people say they’re self-aware, but her number from her research is 10 to 15% are actually self-aware. So just for the record, people think they are and they’re not.

But beyond that, I would say start with mindfulness so that you can notice that, “I’m going into a meeting with Bob, and I know he doesn’t like me, and knowing that I’m going to react to that.” Do you know what I’m saying? Like, I’m noticing I’m feeling anxious about going in the meeting because then I could use some tools to calm my nervous system around that, “It’s okay. Bob is not scary. Bob might not like what I say. I’m okay. Life is happening for me, not to me. Whatever’s happening, as long as I’m coming from a true heart, then it’s going to be okay. Everything is figure-out-able. Everything works out.”

Whatever your mantra is, I don’t care what it is, but have something there that helps to calm you, whatever that is. For me, it’s doing some deep breaths, getting my vagus nerve activated. I have to do that before I go to meetings with these guys. I’m usually in a room with a bunch of men, and there’s a lot of agitation, and I’m often called in because someone’s not doing the right thing so they’re feeling very defensive. So, it’s often a hot room to walk into.

And I’m not immune from people being upset so I have to take a moment, and be like, “I’m here for their greater good. I’m here for the company’s greater good. I’m here for my greater good to connect, to learn, to be better at what I do, to inspire, to motivate. Like, I’m here and I’m going to be fully present. That’s what I’m going to bring.”

Like that, when you go in with your, I call it your calibration with your energy intact, that’s the point of bringing other people towards you, instead of you calibrating to them. I hear that a lot. I’ll hear like, “Well, I was in a good mood, and then I got to work and my boss was miserable, so then I was miserable. He was making me miserable.”

I’m like, “Oh, no, no, no, no. First of all, why do we always assume the bad mood wins? Like, where’s that from? Why does the bad mood win? Why doesn’t your good, huge, amazing, inspired mood win? Because it can, but you have to decide about that. You have to go in with that intact.”

So, when I’m walking in that meeting, I’m intact, and sometimes I just say something right away. I’ll just lead the meeting maybe, and I encourage everyone who has to sit in a meeting to take a minute right before, and just ask everybody, like, “Can we all say what our intention is for this meeting?

And so sometimes that person who talks too much maybe can say, “Hey, well, my intention is to listen more. My supervisor’s been telling me I should listen more. So, all right, my intention is to listen more. My intention is that everyone feels heard and leaves this room feeling like they got seen or something.” Whatever it is, I don’t care.

But when you do that, it brings the energy into the room and it’s very present-focused as opposed to outside the room. Does that make sense? And just doing that will help you do this thing where you can talk to people honestly because you’re starting honest. You’re starting with everybody leaning in.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Well, Abby, we’re having a lot of fun, covering a lot of stuff. Tell me, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Abby Medcalf

I would say don’t waffle on your boundaries ever. Make sure that you say the same thing over and over. Like, if you say no to somebody, don’t justify, don’t explain. I’m sure people have heard no is a complete sentence. So, when you start to justify or explain, you get into trouble because people will start to have something to push back against, and you just say no.

And make that, if they ask again, say the exact same thing again, “Yeah, I can’t come to the meeting on Friday.” “Well, why not? What’s more important? What are you doing?” “Like I said, I can’t come on Friday.” “Well, what are you doing?” “Like I said, I can’t come on Friday.” Do you see that? Same, over and over and over, like a mantra. Don’t get into it, “I’m just letting you know I can’t come on Friday.” Don’t get mad. Don’t get upset. Don’t take it personally but use that as a thing over and over. So, that’s, I think, what I really want people to hear.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, now, could you share with us a favorite book?

Abby Medcalf

Oh, well, I named my son Max after Maxwell Maltz, so Psycho-Cybernetics is the book that definitely changed my life.

Pete Mockaitis

And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Abby Medcalf

It’s the scheduling. I don’t have to-do lists, and I put everything in a schedule. Everything. Phone calls, everything I’m doing goes in a schedule, and that has changed my life and the lives of all the people I work with. And, by the way, this is especially good for people with ADHD. I do work with a large company here with their employees who have ADHD, and scheduling and not having to-do lists and not having stickies is the way to go.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Abby Medcalf

“Don’t sac in your relationships.” Don’t S-A-C. Don’t offer suggestions, give advice, or criticize. Instead, be curious and ask questions. So, try to get through a whole conversation without making a statement, and just asking questions to really deepen a conversation. It’s a game-changer.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Abby Medcalf

Just to my website AbbyMedcalf.com. Everything is there, and social, and all my things. Everything is there. And I’m sure you’ll link to it in the show notes, so that’s the place.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Abby Medcalf

Yeah, I really want you to have a morning practice where you put yourself, before you look at your phone, before you do anything else, before you touch a piece of electronics, that you have some, even if it’s two minutes, some practice where you start with yourself, where you come first, not what everybody else wants, but what you need. So, anything that fills that space.

15 minutes is my goal with all my clients, but I will take two minutes to start, where you just stop, you take a breath, you set intention, you start with that, and then maybe you move into meditations, or visualizations, or journaling, or whatever else, or prayer, I don’t care, but start with something that puts you first and keeps that momentum in a positive place right from the get-go.

Pete Mockaitis

All right, Abby, thank you. This is lovely. Thank you.

Abby Medcalf

Thanks for having me. It was great being here.

Aug 05
0

984: Building Skills Better in an AI-Driven World with Matt Beane

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Matt Beane reveals how the quest to optimize productivity is harming our learning and growth–and what you can do about it.

You’ll Learn

  1. The trillion-dollar problem with trying to optimize everything 
  2. How to modify ChatGPT to help you learn better 
  3. Three counterintuitive ways to learn better and faster 

About Matt

Matt Beane does field research on work involving robots and AI to uncover systematic positive exceptions that we can use across the broader world of work. His award-winning research has been published in top management journals such as Administrative Science Quarterly and Harvard Business Review, and he has spoken on the TED stage. He also took a two-year hiatus from his PhD at MIT’s Sloan School of Management to help found and fund Humatics, a full-stack IoT startup. In 2012 he was selected as a Human-Robot Interaction Pioneer, and in 2021 was named to the Thinkers50 Radar list. 

Beane is an assistant professor in the Technology Management department at the University of California, Santa Barbara, and a Digital Fellow with Stanford’s Digital Economy Lab and MIT’s Initiative on the Digital Economy. When he’s not studying intelligent technologies and learning, he enjoys playing guitar; his morning coffee ritual with his wife, Kristen; and reading science fiction—a lot of science fiction. He lives in Santa Barbara, California. 

Resources Mentioned

Thank You, Sponsors!

  • Jenni Kayne. Use the code AWESOME15 to get 15% off your order!

Matt Beane Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Matt, welcome.

Matt Beane
My pleasure. I’m delighted to be here. Thanks for the invite.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to learn how I can save human ability in an age of intelligent machines.

Matt Beane
I think we all should be, and I’ve been trying to be excited for a good long while now. So glad to be here and chat about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. Well, kick us off, you know, there’s a lot of chatter about AI all the time. Can you maybe tell us something that is surprising, counterintuitive, kind of over- or underappreciated in the field since you really know what’s going on and the rest of us are just parroting the Wall Street Journal and New York Times?

Matt Beane
So, the core, the middle third of The Skill Code, the book, talks about a threat that I discovered initially in robotic surgeries. I was studying how you learn how to do that thing and how that’s different from how you learn how to do the good old-fashioned method of surgery, one way or another, and dear listener, trust me, I’m not going to get any more graphic than that.

But the short story there that I found really, really fast, standing in operating rooms at the top teaching hospitals around the world, is that intelligent technology in that case, AI-enabled robots, the AI there was very mild compared to what we’re all dealing with now, but it was there, that that was fantastic in many ways for productivity, for quality. A surgeon said it was like bumper bowling compared to traditional surgery, and it’s really true, actually.

When I’m in the operating room, it’s pretty amazing, especially when somebody’s really good at it. And novices, residents, would show up, help set up the robot, help attach it to a patient. They get a little bit of hands-on experience, and then they just sit down and watch for a four-and-a-half-hour procedure they’d be lucky to get 15 minutes of time on task because the robot allowed that surgeon to do the whole job themselves.

And that right there, I’ve spent the next nine and a half years looking into whether or not this is a generalizable problem and, dear reader, it is. That’s the whole point of the book. This is cutting across all sectors of the economy that I could find. I’ve been across more than 30 different kinds of occupations, different technologies, organizations, and so on now.

It turns out that we are needlessly, I think in many cases, sacrificing novice involvement in the work on the altar of productivity. That’s the basic deal that we’re striking right now, whether it’s with generative AI, whether it’s with robotics, many different kinds of technology now. And the short reason as to why is that that tech allows that expert to just do more, better, faster, some combination of those things, and part of the way you get there is you need less help.

Novices are, by definition, slower and make more mistakes, and they take coordination costs, mentoring and so on. It takes effort, time, attention. And so, in the short run, organizations love that deal, experts love that deal because, even if it’s a 5%, 8% productivity increase, you’re in more control. Experts love using their expertise. So, it’s attempting short-run target, and that’s the sort of hidden problem in the economy right now.

The best analysis I’ve been able to do, I think that is literally a trillion-dollar problem for the economy, it’s just that it shows up with a lag. You’re only going to find out a little later when those novices aren’t ready for duty.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Matt, there are so many, so many ways we can go with this. First, I think it’s beautiful in that.

You’re highlighting something that I’m really not hearing anywhere else. It’s, like, we are missing out on the opportunity for novices, apprentices, to do the initial helper, low-skill work, because at the moment, that’s kind of what AI is okay at. Like, I will say, “Hey, AI, give me 20 potential titles for this podcast episode.”

Matt Beane
You got it.

Pete Mockaitis
They’re still not as good as my team, just saying. Thanks, team. You’re awesome. But it does give me a little spark. It’s like, “Okay, that’s a good phrase. I’ll take that phrase and work that into something else that we got. Okay.”

Matt Beane
Yep, and that translates into, not always, but often the default deal is a little bit less struggle for that person who is trying to give you that feedstock. A little bit less complexity they have to deal with. In the lingo of the book, this is the skill code that’s up front. There’s three basic components to healthy skill development.

One of them is challenge, “Are you working close to but not at the bounds of your ability?” You do that, you’re literally sweating, you’re not doing as well as you could, but that’s where we learn mostly. It’s uncomfortable. It’s not fun. The middle one’s complexity, which is, “Are you not just getting a task done, but are you engaging with the broader universe of tasks you’re embedded in?” The other people’s jobs around you, the other technologies, asking broader questions, not just focused. That’s going sort of broad where a challenge is more deep.

And then human connection, human relationships, warm bonds of trust and respect between human beings. Those three things, you take that subtle, small, in your case, “just help me along a little bit” deal, which by the way is a much nicer version of what’s generally going on out there. You’ll just do it yourself in many cases if you can. Then all three of those things take a hit, but not for you. It’s for that next person trying to work up the chain.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And now you say this is a trillion-dollar problem. I’m curious what industries or professions do you think it’s going to hit the most hard? And, selfishly, are there any sort of market investment opportunities we should be exploiting, Matt? That’s what it’s all about, right?

Matt Beane
Yep. I’ll give you the one I care about most, which is to say there’s a huge potential upside here, yeah. So, you can sort of short the market. There are plenty of places where you should expect things to be more readily automatable with these technologies faster. And this fits in, I’ve got a piece in Harvard Business Review coming out in two or three weeks, or maybe a month on this.

Anything that is remote work right now means you don’t have to use your body to do it. In other words, it’s “Receive some information, process that information, communicate about that process, and send a changed work product off,” but it’s all digital. That’s a lot more straightforward for these kinds of technologies to handle, especially if it doesn’t involve multimodal data, just like text.

Some folks will lose their jobs there and that’s a serious issue for those affected. We should care about it. But they’re going to see, most folks are going to see a ton of job change. Like, what it means to do my job is going to radically change for that person who could entirely be remote versus somebody who has to show up and use their body for something. So you can go looking there, and you can look in places in the economy where the exposure to these technologies and the potential upside of using them is really high and concentrated in a job. A colleague of mine, Daniel Rock, who’s at Wharton, he recently, with co-authors at OpenAI, published a paper that maps this exposure across the economy. And if you want to make a smart bet about where there’s going to be the most change, look at those places.

The upside, though, is the one that I wrote the back third of the book about, basically, which is we like to romanticize this master-apprenticeship relation as if it’s somehow the peak of what humans can do in terms of transferring and developing skill, and we’ve relied on it for literally 160,000 years, so it ain’t broke exactly, but it can suck. And could it be better?

I think I’m very convinced, I’m trying to build technology like this now, that we can use the very technology that’s part of the insult to build new systems that, in fact, make that connection richer, better, more flexible than it ever was before, so that skill development functions better and from now forward than it ever could have in all of human history.

Companies that try to figure that out, reconfigure their systems so that just by using it, you’re nudged towards healthier skill and you get your productivity, that company’s going to kill. I mean, that’s such a great story. So, anyway, I think there’s opportunities in both directions.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that sounds really cool. Could you paint a picture for what that looks like? And is that happening somewhere right now?

Matt Beane
It’s funny, you should ask, only a few folks have asked. I am now CEO of a startup called SkillBench. In about a month, we’re going to come out and put up a stealthy website or whatever. But we are building a technology that helps an organization see this joint optimization problem based on rich data from inside their own firm.

Like, think of those as two dimensions. You’ve got productivity that comes out of AI, like, “How much juice are we getting out of this stuff?” By the way, it’s going to be less than you expect. We can show you that.

Pete Mockaitis
I think that’s my vibe, yeah, impression.

Matt Beane
Yeah, but it’s not none, and sometimes it will be negative, but seeing what that is, is actually not trivial. But we frame it as a joint optimization problem, and we get data that will help you show, “Fine, you get plus one utils productivity-wise out of implementing AI. You’ve bought your 20,000 licenses like everybody else. What’s the simultaneous interdependent effect of that on the human capital, the people who repeatedly have to do that job that now involves AI? Are they getting up-skilled or down-skilled? Are they more or less motivated? And are they more or less connected with each other?”

You know, these kinds of things, we’re building a tool to automatically help organizations just get a live dashboard of that so that they can figure out, “Do we like the trade-off that we’re making?” In some places they will, and that’s fine, right? Sometimes it’s the right thing to do to sacrifice building human capital for sake of a giant productivity gain, if you’ve got one. But right now, you just said it, I think, earlier, maybe three, four minutes ago.

It’s not a problem you’d ever really heard of that this is a joint optimization problem. There’s this trade space between how much productivity boon are we getting out of this thing. Oh, but that’s also interrelated with what happens to the humans that are left in that job after we change that job. Sometimes it’s great, sometimes it’s up in both territories, in both categories.

But it’s like driving with no rear-view mirror. Organizations are not in the habit of gathering data on that second one at all, or interrelating them two together. So just getting a window on what the heck is going on in that trade space is what we’re doing. But there are numerous firms out there trying to build technology to use AI, for instance, to make better, high-quality, briefer matches between an expert and a novice on a specific project.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Can you zoom into a particular industry, like how we’d see that in practice?

Matt Beane
A good instance is in chip design, one firm that I recently got some data on. Basically, when you’re trying to lay out a new chip, the state of the art in the last, say, 10 years or so is you’re going to use automated software to sort of do this optimization problem of mapping out where all the different components go on that chip.

And so, increasingly, over those last 10 years, basically that junior engineer, who would have been sort of sleeves rolled up over a diagram and doing math that contributes upwards to that senior engineer, who’s doing the block diagram and laying things out, they’re just going to have less opportunity to play in that interaction of designing that chip. They might do some isolated analysis, and actually, the dynamic’s very similar in investment banking.

Well, it turns out that that is not true for all chip projects, for all types of components at all phases of the game. So, in fact, if somebody is a junior engineer, and they’re working on power optimization, that part of the problem, like, “How do I make sure there’s the right amount of power going to this certain amount of the chip?” maybe the chip that they’re currently working on, they would just lose out on that opportunity.

But, in fact, there’s somebody in a fab in Jakarta right now who is working on a chip that could use a little manual help because it’s an ASIC, for instance, which is just a custom piece of silicon as opposed to something you’d produce, mass produce. Well, in the world that we inhabited before this kind of information was available, no human could know that for this one- or two-week window, there’s a senior engineer in Jakarta who could use the help of a junior engineer in upstate New York.

But now you can get that real time work data and say, “Hey, no, this is not done. The capabilities here are underbaked.” But there are firms that have realized, “Oh, this is some sort of problem I got to manage, and maybe there’s a way to make better sort of work-related matches as opposed to just matches across a hierarchy.” That’s the old school way of doing it, that many firms are still deploying, and that’s not bad, but it’s just very coarse.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear you. And with regard to, when you mentioned these things, like surgery, investment banking, chip making, which by the way, I read the book The Chip War. Extreme ultraviolet lithography is the most complicated thing I’ve ever heard of, and it blew my mind, which is actually a shoutout.

Matt Beane
It is pretty incredible, yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Book recommendation there. But that really does paint a picture in terms of, at the at the highest level, yeah, there are some expertise that’s pretty high stakes – life or death, millions or billions of dollars, huge factory waste or safety matters – that, “Yeah, we’re going to be super careful associated with having a senior person and then a novice apprentice kind of learning under them and doing some work as they’re developing those skills.”

And, yes, it does seem kind of spooky that we could find ourselves in a place where those lesser experienced people don’t have the opportunity to do that thing anymore. And so, I’m curious, if some of us are already starting to find ourselves in that position, what should we do?

Matt Beane
First of all, in order to take effective action to address this problem, you got to know what an effective solution looks like. Like, “What would it look like if things were good for me, or the people that report to me, or the people that are in my profession, for building skill?”

There hasn’t really been a lot of proliferation of different views about what skill is, how you build it, and so on, and big theories that, sort of, “First, you do this, then you do this, then you do this, then you do that.” And I just realized this book was not going to be able to do that. Like, there are too many different ways of working now, different technologies and so on, different modalities of interacting.

But the raw ingredients, sort of like, and I use a DNA metaphor, that’s what’s on the cover of the book, if I could give you the amino acids of skill development, and they’re going to show up in different combinations in your setting, they’re going to show up in different sequences, different emphases. But for each one of those three things – the challenge, the complexity, the connection – I give you a 10-point checklist in the book.

You can immediately go look at your work scenario and say, “All right, how healthy is challenge for me? How am I doing on this, like, 10-point quiz? How healthy is complexity? How healthy is connection? And if it’s not great, then I, at least, know how and why it might change, because each one of those items is a specific set of interactions.”

For instance, in challenge, your challenge is healthiest when you have an expert nearby who can help you deal with the frustration that comes with not performing at your best. You can struggle on your own. You can get really far. A lot of autodidacts have shown us, like, you don’t really necessarily need someone to build skill but you need them to get superb progress towards skill.

And if you have an expert around who can help frame the difficulty you’re embedded in, in a broader context, like you want to be able to hit a fastball at major league speeds, well, the first goal is, “Why don’t you just try to even make contact? Like, forget about a fair ball. Get up and try to do that, and then you hit a foul ball, and instead of going, ‘Good job, dummy. That’s a foul ball,’ they can say, ‘Okay, you can hit a foul ball in the major leagues. Tomorrow we’re going to work on…’” right? They can sort of help you put that in context.

So, that’s just one tiny little micro example. That, I hope, the first three chapters can help anyone, in any role, in any job, look at that situation and say, “Is it healthy or is it not?” The next move that’s peppered throughout the book is, “Okay, assume in some cases, in some part of your life, in some part of your organization, this has been good or is currently great, what is it that is allowing for things to work well over there that’s not working well over here?”

Like, “The job I had last year, I was learning so much. Now, not so much.” What was happening back then that you could port? Or if you’re a manager in an organization, “Fine, skill development’s great over here. Why is it?” Because the job rotation program is so annoying. It turns out that rotating people through different jobs, no one likes that, and it is incredibly beneficial for your skills and career development. It gets you engaged with that complexity thing I was talking about in the middle of those three Cs.

So, lots of notes, angry notes, like, “I have to rotate through yet another function.” It’s like, “Yeah, you do.” And the job of the leader then is to say, “This is actually really critical for your career and it is no fun. So, I’m right there with you on it and we’re definitely doubling down on that,” that kind of thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, understood. So, it’s not so much, necessarily, that the wise expert mentor person has to be pouring forth, necessarily, expert nuanced insight wisdom, so much as they just have a bit of a broad perspective associated with, “Yeah, this sucks, it’s uncomfortable, it’s unpleasant in these ways, and also it’s useful.” And just that, in and of itself, is a huge value because the learner is able to then persist through the frustrations and rock and roll.

Matt Beane
Yep. And then, you know, I mean, technologists, people who are building these technologies that are currently enabling all this new potential productivity, and in some cases actual, they have a big choice about like how do they want to design their tech, how do they want to sell it. There are ways of doing that, the default ways, that will appeal to this monetary productivity-oriented logic that’s deeply embedded in business and firms, and they can win. And yet that doesn’t have to be that way.

I have a post on my Substack called “Don’t Let AI Dumb You Down.” And in the back third of that post, there are specific changes you can make to ChatGPT through its custom settings to have it nudge you towards more skill while you’re getting productivity out of it. It’s very straightforward. The interface is available, but that takes every single user doing that for themselves. That’s no way for the human species to win.

Like, OpenAI or Anthropic or Google, if they just made a few tweaks to that UX, anybody at the end of the day would be mildly annoyed, maybe more, by the technology because it keeps asking, “Do you know any other human beings you could connect with about this skill, rather than just me?” And it’s like, “No, I don’t want to debrief this interaction.” “No, I don’t want a harder version.” “No, I don’t want to try it myself.”

But if that’s the option, how many people, if it was turned on by default, would turn it off? Some, but a whole bunch of other folks, millions probably, would just know more about musicology at the end of the week for having used ChatGPT, or have made connections with other human beings in their local area.

This happens to me. Like, I am now connected to a rocket enthusiasts club in the Santa Barbara area because we all like to watch the rocket launches out of Vandenberg Air Force Base, and I just went into ChatGPT, asking for some code to predict when they were going to land the boosters back here in Santa Barbara. And because I had configured it that way, it said, “Is there any other human being locally you might connect with about that?” I’m like, “Oh, yeah, good one.” So, the tech, just so much power in the hands of the folks rolling this tech out, so it’s such easy changes.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really intriguing, this notion of these little nudges and how just transformational their impact can be. Like, 401k savings, it’s like, “Well, the default is this much is deployed into your 401k savings.” And people say, “Okay,” which is wild. You know, it’s like, “This is your money.” It’s like, “All right, sure, 8%, cool. Oh, you said, okay, nine? All right, nine, sure.” It’s like, “Whatever.” Like, most people just sort of roll with that default, and that’s interesting.

It’s funny, I have a calorie-tracking app, and I just changed the default to like, “Just assume that I burn fewer calories naturally.” Like, the threshold at which it turns green versus red is now different. And I know, I know I set it up to do that, and yet it does nudge me, it’s like, “Okay, maybe I’ll have a healthier snack so I can stay green because I want it.”

And so, that’s really clever how if we’re engaging frequently with ChatGPT or some of these things, if we can make the default setting to be one that nudges us in positive ways, we will benefit. And it’s funny, it’s sort of like, “Yes, I know talking to other people is generally a cool thing,” but it doesn’t occur to you in the moment. Likewise, it’s like, “Yes, I know I could look at the manual to figure this out.” I was like, “But, actually, yeah, maybe I will. I’d do that.” Because it said it, I was like, “Yeah, actually, maybe I’ll learn something else if I get the whole PDF manual of this appliance that’s giving me trouble right now.”

Matt Beane
Exactly. And, in fact, to the opposite, I lay out in the book, like there’s many cases where we grab for the manual and that hurts your skill development. It turns out that with, and in the book, I cite the research on this, that reading the manuals can be hazardous to your health of your skill. Basically, folks do it too soon, too early. We front load all kinds of explicit knowledge and learning into school, into work, formal training classes, checklists, SOPs, all this kind of stuff, when it’s generally better to get the minimally sufficient amount of explicit information and then just dive in the pool.

And then, after you’ve had a good struggle and a stroke and managed to get heaving and scuffing up to the edge of the pool, then somebody could say, “You want to learn a little bit about strokes now?” Humans are better at learning that way. So, a system like this, if you asked for the PDF, it could say, “You’re a little early in trying to deal with it. How about you just try a little harder? It’d probably be better for you.” I mean, it wouldn’t do that, because people would say, “No, go to hell, give me the PDF.”

But there are ways of doing that where, if you, as the user, specify, “Here’s my trade zone between getting my productivity,” and it’s like your 401k contribution. By the way, the returns on your skill are much better than the returns you will get by putting money in a 401k. So, if you set that slider, “So today I want to be pretty darn annoyed and learn a lot,” or, “I want to be not annoyed at all and not learn anything,” that’s your choice. But the technologists can make that available to people is the point. Like, that’s just a huge missed market opportunity, from my point of view.

Pete Mockaitis
And you say we can go ahead and do it ourselves. Is there a magic copy-pasted thing you recommend we shove in there? Or how do we get it done?

Matt Beane
Yes. I boiled down the entire book into two short paragraphs that I dumped into the custom instructions in ChatGPT, and that is in the bottom third of that post on my Substack. Substack is called WildWorldofWork.org, and the post is called “Don’t Let AI Dumb You Down.” I can send the URL after we’re done. But, yeah, the literal contents of those boxes, even as of today, I keep updating it whenever I make changes, is sitting right there.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, cool. And so, that’s nudged you to go meet some rocket people and has some other good impacts on your life as well?

Matt Beane
Yes, absolutely. And, you know, if I I’m perfectly candid, and most of the time, the thing says, “Hey, if you want more challenge, what about this? If you want more complexity, what about this? And how about some human connection?” And I wave it off 90% of the time, 94% of the time something. I could go get the data. And it’s always there though and I don’t not notice it.

And, by the way, what I have put together is the most basic ham-fisted, ridiculously coarse approach to this problem so it’s helped me. Yes, I have, for instance, I’ve learned a bunch more about coding because it itself suggested that I leave, you may have seen this yourself if you’re doing the sort of work where ChatGPT, or Claude, is generating code. You can turn a radio button on where you can watch that code getting written.

And it writes it at reasonable, it’s like 2x human speed or something, 2.5x, which is like listening to a podcast, you can track. And so, I’ve learned some stuff about coding just by watching, too. Like, I wasn’t ever a professional coder. I took some classes in graduate school. It had been 10 years for me or so since I’d tried to write any code to do anything, and now, kind of casually use code to solve problems. But you don’t learn anything about that if you just let the machine do its thing and take the output.

So, leaving that window open is a way where I just am like, it’s like pair coding, by the way, the best learning about how to code comes from sitting physically side-by-side with somebody where they’re coding and you’re watching and you’re chatting through the problem, that kind of thing. The best coders at Google are pair coding, side-by-side.

Anyway, this is all just one guy’s semi-random, I mean, fine, I wrote a book on the topic, and I know some stuff, but, come on, the world can do better than one guy. Like, we have to take wholesale effort. We have a huge opportunity to nudge all of humanity in a healthier direction on skill while getting crazy cool new things out of AI.

Pete Mockaitis
And it makes you wonder kind of about everything that we allow to be done for us, and like, “Is this trade-off worth it? And is it worth it every time? The dishwasher washes my dishes. Thank you, dishwasher.” But, in some ways, it can be kind of mindful, cathartic, Zen-like, just hot soapy water, physically cleaning some stuff, and sometimes that’s the right answer.

Likewise, the calculator or the GPS or anything that does anything for us, yeah, it productively accomplishes that thing faster. Cool. Thanks. But there may very well be times and places when I’d say, “No, no, autopilot. I want the control.” And it is enriching me in a skills development kind of a way and some other ways because I have wrest back control.

Matt Beane
Yes, exactly right. And it’s not obvious where you win by giving up the tech and in what ways you give it up. There are other cases, by the way, let’s be real clear, where by using the tech in its fullest capacity, you are going to build ridiculously more skill than you would have otherwise. So, in fact, there’s a win-win there where you were like just stabbing for productivity, and because you get to skip some stuff that is actually repetitive, annoying, you get to deal with the cool complex parts of the problem.

And so, we don’t pay a price at all. In fact, you learn a whole bunch more, “Oh, but maybe I’m sacrificing that novice’s involvement. Gosh, darn it, there’s no free lunches there.” So, it’s not just an optimization problem for me, Matt Beane, or you, Pete. It’s like, “I’m winning, but what about the people around me? What about the people who want to come up the ranks?”

It’s really, that’s a tall order to ask any one expert to be looking out for their own results and seeing that, in fact, if they don’t actively do something to support that novice, that person is out to sea. Whereas, in the past, to cycle, I skipped way past it in the beginning, like the traditional mode of doing surgery is a lot like doing lots of kind of work, which is, if you and I were doing it and you’re my mentor, there are four hands required for that job.

Like, somebody’s holding that patient open while the other person is doing something inside of them and that takes four hands. So, I can be at the shallow end of the pool, so to speak, if you decide I’m not really ready, but I’m not doing nothing. I’m on task the whole time. And so, that radical shift is the difference.

Like, that kind of shift as we’ve used new technologies to automate small parts of the work, the calculator for instance in accounting, that wasn’t such an extensive chunk of the work that the junior accountant was left hung out to dry. In minor ways, but that they were making up for by other forms of involvement. That’s the intensity and the pace of the change is really the main thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, if we could maybe think outside of AI entirely, when it comes to acquiring skills, we’ve laid out some of these fundamentals, the challenge, the complexity of the human connection, are there any particularly underrated do’s and don’ts you think that make a world of difference as we’re trying to develop skills?

Matt Beane
So, number one, when you are not performing at your best, when you are not having fun, and you are struggling to the point where you might be sweating and really can’t hear if somebody’s talking to you, like, you’re totally focused, that’s the domain where you’re appropriately challenged and will be learning the most.

So, it’s not a space that, you know, the minute you tell this to anybody, you’re like, “Yeah, there was that time where I kind of got a years’ worth of learning in four hours because everything was riding on me doing a good job. I did not do a great job, but, hey, I did it, and now I know how I can handle that situation, right?”

So that challenge, we, in many ways, have unintentionally created a sort of, the world of work has become a bit of a padded playground a little bit on this front. Like, being uncomfortable and real struggle is a status threat, like, you don’t look like you’re doing so hot, and so maybe you’re going to avoid doing that in front of people when you want to maintain an impression kind of thing. Or there are policies that will literally keep you away from challenge and so on.

Anyway, challenge is no fun, and it is absolutely necessary, and an expert, by the way, can really help you eat a lot more challenge than you could on your own. So having somebody there who can, if you can throw a flag to ask for help, or who can give you some key guidance at key points, there’s ways of amplifying, you know, eating even more of it. That’s one.

The second sort of counterintuitive one has to do with the complexity bit, which is getting your job done faster because of technology allows you, unintentionally, to skip by a whole bunch of collateral work and understanding that’s necessary for you to not have fragile or brittle skill. So, I did some research in warehousing, for instance, recently, and the people who really were good managers of their area were good because they knew about things like seasonality in the business. They knew about different vendors that they were using for staffing.

They knew about the technology, like the taping machine, and why that thing is rickety and how to shim it so that it doesn’t shake the packages too much as they go through. These are not things that you should be paying attention to in your job, but these people not only tried to get good at being a manager of a small group, but they wanted to understand more and more of the different jobs, different work, other skills that were connected to it so that when a shock came, for them, it was like, “Oh yeah, it’s wintertime, big jackets come through the building. We got this. Here’s what we do.”

And, usually, the way to do that is do not, first, go to the rulebook, do not, first, try to explain to a newbie in detail everything to expect. Give them the least information they need to get out on the field and try. So that’s kind of the opposite. Corporate training is show up. What’s the first thing you do? New employee orientation and training.

And that just front loads a bunch of concepts and knowledge into people’s heads that usually is just going to melt away, and then, at worst, they’re going to be clutching the rulebook while they’re out there for the first week trying to do whatever, instead of just trying to pay attention, do a good job and learn.

And the last one is that we write off human relationships as if they are somehow unconnected to how we build skill, and in particular, like trust and respect between human beings, when, in fact, it’s the main event. Like, number one, nobody’s going to give you a chance to build skill unless they trust and respect you, at least a little bit. So, if you’re not earning that, you don’t get to play. So, there’s an access bit.

But the other part is motivation. Like, I can point to the places in my career, but, also, it’s clear in the research. The reason you’re motivated to build that skill is because usually there’s somebody around whose trust and respect you want to earn, like you have a manager or an expert you work with, and you want to do a good job and you want them to recognize and see it, and say, “Hey, that was good.” Or, you know, “That was good, chef, and don’t do that again,” right?

You’re getting real feedback from somebody and you want a better chance to do something cooler next time, and so you’re going to work extra hard. You’re going to get up early in the morning to do a good job because of that human connection, not because of some, like, “I want to be competent,” abstract goal. Those are things that are important, of course, but like, un-divorce human relationships from your skill, like, they’re bound together.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Matt Beane
I’ll go for one that has been oriented my career for a long time, which is “The future’s already here. It’s just not evenly distributed.” People attribute that to William Gibson, a famous sci-fi writer, and he, it turns out, fun cocktail party fact, does not remember saying that, and thinks he never said it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Matt Beane
The Milgram experiments with people’s willingness to obey an authority figure and administer potentially lethal shocks to somebody across a divide.

Obviously, that study has been debunked in a number of ways and so on. But seeing that as a 12-year-old kid, the video, I was just shown that in a class, woke me up to you can do research about this stuff, and, “Dear, God, people will do what for what reason?” Like, that just really just woke me up intellectually in a way that few pieces of research since have done.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Matt Beane
Well, the one I tend to go off about still, a couple years after reading about it, is one called There Is No Antimemetics Division by an author with no vowels in it, QNTM. They prefer to remain anonymous. I’ll leave it at that, because that book will, if you are into sci-fi at all, that will literally melt the head off your body. It is incredibly creative. It’s fantastic.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Matt Beane
That’s got to be sitting in the morning, almost every single morning, with my wife having coffee before the day starts. That’s sort of a sacrosanct thing that she and I have established over the last, like, 15 years.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Matt Beane
Yeah, “We’re sacrificing learning on the altar of productivity.” It’s one that I came out with for my TED Talk, and that’s one that I hear back a fair number of times, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Matt Beane
MattBeane.com. M-A-T-T-B-E-A-N-E.com. That will get you access to the book. It’ll also get you access to the Substack that I mentioned before. If you want the latest rulings coming out of my brain, that’ll take you to Twitter or X, whatever you want to call it, but it’s all there, sort of a central hub.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Matt Beane
Yeah. So, just figure out for yourself what kind of deal you’re making with AI around productivity, and what it might be costing you or others around you in terms of skill. It could be great, bully for you, and then your job is to help other people figure that out, but it probably isn’t. Go take a second look.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, Matt, thank you. I wish you all the best.

Matt Beane
Thank you very much. I appreciated the opportunity.

Aug 01
0

983: Making the Most of Your Limited Time Before Death with Jodi Wellman

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Jodi Wellman shares how reflecting on our scarce remaining time of life helps us live free from regret.

You’ll Learn

  1. Why you need to befriend the Grim Reaper
  2. How to feel “astonishingly alive”
  3. How to break out of a rut

About Jodi

Jodi Wellman is a former corporate executive turned executive coach. She has a Master’s in Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, where she is an instructor in the Master’s program and a trainer in the world-renowned Penn Resilience Program. She is a Professional Certified Coach with the ICF and a Certified Professional Co-Active Coach from CTI. 

She has coached and spoken with clients like American Express, Fidelity, pwc, Royal Bank of Canada, BMW, and more, and runs her own business, Four Thousand Mondays. She’s also known for her inspirational TEDx Talk on how death can bring you back to life. She lives between Palm Springs and Chicago with her husband and cat, Andy.

Resources Mentioned

Thank You, Sponsors!

  • Jenni Kayne. Use the code AWESOME15 to get 15% off your order!

Jodi Wellman Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Jodi, welcome.

Jodi Wellman
Thank you for having me here. I’m excited.

Pete Mockaitis
I am excited, too. I understand you say you’ll have about 1,822-ish Mondays left of your plans here.

Jodi Wellman
Well, I got to tell you, that number’s down by two weeks since you read that. So, I’m down to 1,820, but this clock is ticking down, and, yeah, big plans. I mean, that’s the point, right? It’s like, when we get a little bit granular with that math, that fabulous mortality math, it does make me and many others go, “Wait a sec, how am I going to spend that diminishing time?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, what are some of these big plans?

Jodi Wellman
Well, they’re usually bucketed. It’s funny you ask that because, in terms of research and then the way that I look at my life, they’re in categories. So, there are different domains of life. There’s the fun and recreation side of things, which can further categorize into travel. So going to the south of France in the fall, that’ll be exciting. And so, there’s a whole category around recreation. What are we doing with our leisure time?

And so, looking at starting new hobbies, I’m going to be getting more into trying to learn a new language. And so, really, I’m looking to either refine French or Italian. So that’s just one category, and so that’s a good start, I think, lest I bore you with the gory details.

Pete Mockaitis
No, I appreciate that, that’s fun. That’s fun. Well, lay it on us, you’ve been researching our mortality. Your book, You Only Die Once, a compelling title. Any particularly surprising or fascinating discoveries you’ve made about us humans and our lives, our mortality, that professionals need to know?

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, I definitely think so. So, we all know in the work we do, for example, that, oh, there’s nothing better than the power of a deadline. It’s like we will tend to procrastinate until we know that the strategy session is coming up on the 17th or we’ve got a big project due at the end of the quarter, etc. And it’s so true with our lives.

So having this distinct and, okay, fine, maybe a little bit morbid sense that we are finite is precisely the thing, by having that deadline that does kick us into gear to get on with, I say, the business of living. So, it could be the things we do at work, all of the initiatives we might just keep postponing, but also the things we do outside of work, all the joys and things we might do, again, for recreation, socially, etc., that make us more well-rounded when we come back into work.

So, the research is called Temporal Scarcity, and it’s this idea that whenever we have an asset, okay, like life, that we become heightened, frightenedly aware that it is temporary or rare. Our perception of its value goes through the roof. So that is why I get us to count our Mondays, and that is the heft in terms of empirical evidence behind how we do need to have, unfortunately, that rankling feeling of, “Ugh, scarcity” in order to take action and have that deadline, or else we’ll just float along the lazy river of life and have good intentions, maybe, but not really take as much action on them.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, a deadline is quite literally here, there will be a day in which we die, a deadline.

Jodi Wellman
You caught it.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, morbid, yeah, I mean, that’s how some people could react to it, but you seem to have a very different emotional energy vibe association to this. Tell us about it.

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, I definitely do. I mean, I’ve never been super scared of it. I recognize, and in doing research, of course, and working with groups and individuals that some people would much rather not talk about death than anything. Many people would rather public speak. We’re very afraid of dying in the discussion.

So, my openness to it and my mission in life, really, is to de-fang it, make it something that’s like, “Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, definitely. Nobody wants to think about the fact that we’re not going to be around much longer,” relatively speaking. And so, how do we use that and take a more amusing approach to accepting, “Yeah, it sucks to be us,” and yet let’s use it pretty darn quickly to move over to the life side?

So, I talk about the Grim Reaper. I love it. I love the whole topic of mortality because I know it’s a tool. It catapults us not to keep talking about death but to talk about life. So, I make the switch pretty darn quickly. It helps that I doodle, you know, the Grim Reaper and tombstones. It helps to lighten it a little bit, and I tend to give out the most ridiculous, hilarious prizes in my workshops, again, to create levity.

But it’s like a fact of life that we do a fabulous job of denying and deferring and avoiding, and I just say, “Guys, let’s just accept it. Let’s talk about it for a minute. Let’s do the math, let’s do the thinking, and then use a table. I’m curious, like, how does that motivate you to maybe spend your time differently because there’s so much power there?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so maybe could you give us an example of how a person walked through the math, they took a look at it, and then that transformed the way they approached their work, and their life, what they’re up to?

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, I give so many examples in the book, and I do that because we do like to hear and learn vicariously through other people, right? So, there’s one leader I worked with who used to do, in the nature of his business, he acquired companies. And when he stopped and counted, not just his Mondays left in life, but his. Mondays left in his career, he didn’t really have formal retirement plans, but he had a sense about, “By this age, I want to be able to say no and say no a lot, unless it’s a really cool project.”

So, he did the math and he looked and said, “Okay, I do however many acquisitions, mergers per year.” And he did that and worked backwards and said, “Wait a sec. Like, I’ve been thinking, deluding myself,” because that’s what we do. I mean, this is what psychology is. We just try to fool ourselves into happiness. You know, we got to cope somehow.

And so, he was thinking, he knew he wasn’t going to live forever or work forever, but when he did the math and he realized, he really had five good deals ahead of him, like really good juicy ones that he loved to live for, it put everything else in perspective. And it helped him focus in on the kind of work he wanted to do, the kind of deals he wanted to negotiate, the kind of team he wanted along the way, because he was just dilly-dallying and having people around him that weren’t necessarily the lifers, as he now called them.

And so, it helped him prioritize, “What kind of work do I want to do? What kind of work do I not want to do?” because we all know sometimes that’s where the meat on the bone is. So, it can really help sharpen what our priorities are just by way of one example.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, then for our math, can you walk us through it? How might we compute that? Do I need to whip out an actuarial table? Or, what’s the sequence by which I arrive at my Mondays left?

Jodi Wellman
Right. It’s a lot easier than you think. Now, the good news is I have a page on my website called Resources that does the math for you, if you don’t want to waste your precious time in life doing math, but it’s pretty easy. So, if you identify as male, start with 78 years, that’s the average life expectancy, and then you minus your age, and then you multiply by 52 just to keep it easy.

Now, if you are a little more fortunate to have been born a female and you identify as such, then your average age is 83, and then you minus your current age and you multiply it by 52 weeks a year. And then if you don’t identify with either, just average it at 80 and minus your age, and again multiply it by 52. And I think you could probably add in a few Mondays just because you listen to How to Be Awesome at Your Job. I mean, I do think that that should buy you…

Pete Mockaitis
Life extender.

Jodi Wellman
It is. It is, at least a couple weeks, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Life giving. Okay. And so, then when you see that number, it’s like, “Well, shucks, here we are, we’re maybe 1,000-ish, 2,000-ish,” and then it’s even more real when we get precise like 1,822, like you had there. And so, you see that. And then what’s most people’s reaction to beholding this figure?

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, it is usually a bit eye-opening, like, literally, eyes-widening, like, “Oh,” because we are used to the language of years. We’ve already rationalized, “Yeah, I’m going to live to about 80. My grandma lived to 90. Oh, shoot, but my Uncle Reg died at 71,” and you average it out somewhere. But when we talk about the weeks, and I’m super nerdy because that’s why I call my company 4,000 Mondays.

When you even think of it in terms of Mondays, which have a very different feeling than a Friday, you know, Fridays are slam dunks, like, life is easy. But when you think about it with a Monday, and you quantify and say, “Am I really doing the stuff that lights me up if I’m going to be waking up for just that many more Mondays?” that’s where it creates the eye-opening and wakeup call that I’m looking for people.

So, it does tend to create enough discomfort. I’m not afraid of a discomfort. I want people to feel just enough of the poke in the ribs to feel like, “Oh, I got to get on with this.” And this is the thing, Pete, and you know this from all the work you do and the research you do, and with me with my positive psychology background, I would love the idea that we could all just be motivated enough by the pursuit of something awesome. You know, the, “Oh, I want to live this kind of life and I’m going to go for it.”

And some people are intrinsically motivated enough to do that, but the rest of us, we need a prod, we need a nudge, we need something that is, unfortunately, just a tad negative, which is why I talk about scarcity rather than abundance in this context. And so, that is the eye-opener for people that we think, “Oh, I didn’t want to see it that way, but now that I see it and I hopefully can’t unsee it. What does it motivate me to do?”

And that’s where the conversation gets good. It’s like, “So now what? This precious life. This dwindling, diminishing existence you have. What do you want to…?” Throw that in. I mean, you’ve got to heighten the drama, “But what do you want to stuff it with?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Jodi, it’s funny. This might be the most intense episode of “How to Be Awesome at Your Job” ever. It’s like, quite literally, life and death is all we’re talking about. But what you say really does connect. A friend of mine shared with me he had some family members with some health challenges. One was a child of his, which was very scary. And another was his mother, and he said, “Boy, just experiencing that really kind of made me think about what I want to be doing with my career, instead of like postponing my dreams.”

And so, he just like went for it, he’s like, “I’ve always had this cool business idea, and so I’ve got some people together. We made a pitch deck and we approached an investor. And then he’s in for a couple hundred thousand dollars or a few hundred thousand dollars for a few points of equity.” So, he’s got like a multi-million-dollar evaluation. It was like, “I just talked to you like a month ago. What is going on here? It’s amazing.”

And so, I’m proud and impressed and, just like that, I mean, he had the idea bouncing around his head for a long time, and then a few scary situations with family members’ health, the guy was, “You know what, let’s just see what happens. Let’s just go for it.” And then, wow, he’s off to the races.

Jodi Wellman
Oh, this story is profound, and I love it. This is the research that I do that just lights me up beyond belief that I hope to also shine that light on others. This is the wakeup call with this gentleman. And it takes a really unfortunate situation to see that light. Especially, because I talk a lot about the wakeup calls we receive personally. Like, if you get a health diagnosis that ain’t so hot, that usually tends to snap us to attention, and we want to live differently, and research is so clear.

I always love this phrase that psychologists, existential psychologists use, that when people have had a brush with death, they experience what’s called a roar of awakening. It feels so visceral, right? And so, whether it’s our own precipice moment with the great beyond, or whether it is because a family member or a dear friend, or we’ve had some very salient moment to realize, “Oh, gosh, like, we are mortal,” that can be the thing that catapults us.

And, ultimately, what it comes down to, and I think you even embedded the words in your anecdote, it’s like, “What are we waiting for?” We delude ourselves into thinking that we’re going to have time later, and I am getting to get all hot and bothered here, but we need to talk about it because I think we believe we’re going to have time to do the new initiative, or open up the New York office, or do the cool thing, or open up the spinoff business, or go to Prague, “We’re just going to get to do it later.”

It’s either in this category of when work dies down, we’ll, like, let’s all get laughed together at that notion, because we’re working hard at making work more productive and busier often, which is not about dying things down, another metaphor about dying things down. And so, we’re either waiting for that, lull, “Well, it ain’t going to happen,” or we’re waiting for retirement, which to me is like, “Don’t you dare.”

Yeah, plan a cool retirement, do that, too. But if you are deferring your existence for a later that just may not arrive, oh, honey buddy, I just want to take you, in somewhere between a hug and a throttle, it’s just like, “What are we waiting for? Don’t wait for your kid to get sick. Don’t wait for you to get thankfully in remission from a cancer that you just were trying not to think about. Don’t wait to get to retirement when, all of a sudden, your gout is so bad that you can’t even climb the Spanish steps that you’ve been longing to climb since you were in your early thirties that you just put off.” See, I’m getting all worked up, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
No, I hear you. Well, it’s heavy and it’s intense. And, in some ways, you’ve got something novel on your hands, like the math and the number of Mondays and whatnot. In another way, this is a very ancient wisdom concept, you know, memento mori. I think that’s Latin. I was a Latin student. That just means remember your death. Is that correct?

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, remember you’re going to die. Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Remember your death. And so, I know Ryan Holiday has done a fine job of, I think, he’s got a cool coin as well that says that on it. I think there’s a skull or something. Cool stuff from Ryan Holiday. So, tell us, what’s sort of like the ancient wisdom on meditating upon this? And what’s your new fresh stuff that you’re bringing to the table?

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, it’s all rooted in the ideology that some call it stoicism as a philosophical endeavor. Philosophers, depending on their camps, for centuries have been extolling the virtues of remembering that you’re going to die, and in some cases, it was so that they could control the population for ways of being virtuous or for religious means. But being in tune with the end is not a new idea.

Just like with most of us, we all rationally know we have an expiry day. We don’t know when it is, but we all understand it. But it’s the reminder that we need to keep in mind and keep fresh. So, in more modern times, I referred a moment ago to some existential psychologists, and there’s a whole new branch of psychology called existential psychology, and it really is the study of our experience of not just the positive psychology side, which is a lot of my background around like what it takes to live the good life, but it’s also the nuances of how we will defer and avoid and deny, and what the cost is of that.

So, the more modern take on it is let’s just try to be open and honest with ourselves about it, and have conversations with our families, and our friends, and just like, for me, it’s like that’s the best happy hour ever. It’s just talking about a bucket list and holding each other accountable about, “What are you going to do?” “Did you book the trip?” “Did you book the online course?” “Did you set up the LLC like you said you wanted to do?” Because again, what are we waiting for?

So, it’s all rooted in the ancient times. And in the modern times, I think there’s not really a lot more we can do other than create a habit around talking about it and thinking about it and remembering it. So, this doesn’t just become a, “Huh, interesting conversation I listened to on your podcast that floats away.” We have to embed it into our routines, if you will, and that’s the stuff that helps make it stickier.

Pete Mockaitis
Could you give us another example? So, we’ve heard about a couple folks in the deal-making or entrepreneurial zone. Any other dramatic wakeups that you’ve witnessed?

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, there was a woman I worked with three years ago, she was in her early 40s, and she was diagnosed with breast cancer, and she ran her own company and it was an eye-opener for her. She beat it, and that was fantastic, and that had inspired her to come alive and start a foundation as part of her organization.

So, a lot of what this does is it instills this idea about like legacy thinking, which is really important I think for leaders, but not even just for leaders but people thinking about, “How am I showing up at work? And how am I showing up at life? Like, how do I want to be remembered?” So, for this woman, Christia, she felt really compelled as a result of having her life threatened in front of her, to say, “I want to start raising money for women with breast cancer who didn’t have access to some of the means that I had.”

Because she knew coming from the south side of Chicago, that she had a history where she knew other people were suffering in ways that her financial means were allowed her better access to some care and convenience. So, now the truth is, if I was just to fast-forward to take this to a different direction, but on purpose, is that she was re-diagnosed and, unfortunately, a couple of years ago she did pass away, and she was 42 when she died.

And I still work with the company, the fabulous team there that inherited the business from her. Her sister and her niece are running that company. They’re called Thank God It’s Natural, and they are phenomenal. But for Christia, it opened her eyes up to “What kind of business do I want to run? Where do I want to prioritize our operations? And where do I want to not focus?”

So, another woman, here in Palm Springs, where I’m currently based, also had a breast cancer experience for herself. She started a nonprofit that helps survivors. And the way she worded it is that, “I was given a second chance at life.” And she said that in her experience of sitting and doing something like 24 rounds of chemotherapy, I wrote about this as an example in the book and drew a doodle about it, I called it Shay’s Circle because she said, “I took a fresh journal page and I drew a big circle.”

“And I said to myself, ‘I’m making it through this cancer situation, but I’m going to be very thoughtful about the life I’m going to live moving forward, this second chance I’ve been given. What do I want and who do I want in my life?’” And she was very deliberate and wrote names of people, some of the priorities with her work, activities she wanted to focus on, things with her kids in the circle, and she was very thoughtful about, “And I will no longer…” and she had a couple names, and she had a couple of tendencies, like pleasing tendencies, saying yes to being on committees and all the things that we just do because we’re not conscious that our life is finite.

So those are extremes, people having had scares that did, unfortunately, take them, but also scares that did, I think, we learned from that. Like, my goal is for us to have wakeup calls without having to go through any of that drama of having a near-death experience because there’s so much gold from people who have been there or have been close. So, we can refine our priorities. I think that’s one of the biggest opportunities, in addition to being grateful for life. But we’re refining our priorities and the big businesses we work in and things we do, sometimes that’s key.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m fascinated as I just imagine the listeners hearing this, like, some people have already turned off this podcast and have asked out their dream guy, their dream partner or send an email to be like, “Let’s talk about this business that we’ve been picking around.” They’ve already taken the action. They’re so fired up. They’re inspired, like, you’re transforming them. Boom. Already done.

I think there’s others, and I’m finding myself in this boat a little bit right now. It’s like, well, you know, Jodi, I mean, I guess I’ve been quite blessed. I mean, in many ways, I’ve had a lot of dreams, and then I have realized them. It’s like, I’ve got a family, and they’re amazing. I’ve got a dream job, and then I got a job that was better than that dream job, and then I got a job that was better than that, better than that dream job. It’s like, I’m talking to fascinating people whose books I would just read, and this is turning into income, and then other entrepreneurial things are turning into income, and I’m working with cool people I like.

In a way, it’s like I don’t feel like I’ve postponed anything major, and yet I have a feeling there’s more for me here because I don’t, frankly, spend much time thinking, “Oh, I’m going to die soon.” I don’t do that. And as you’re saying it, it feels heavy and intense, like, “Yeah, whoa, for real, a limited number of Mondays. Okay.” But I’m not yet electrified to charge in any given direction. I was like, “Huh, these are pretty good. I guess I should just keep doing that.” What about this segment?

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, I love what you’re saying. So, I have quadrants like any good empirically based situation has quadrants, and so you are in…

Pete Mockaitis
As a former consultant, absolutely, they do.

Jodi Wellman
I know, exactly. You got the Bain in you, right? So, you’ve got widening your life with vitality is one dimension, and that’s literally the idea about, “How can I add more fun and interest and experience and cool stuff and pleasure and happiness?” Okay, so for many people who have really busy profound jobs, this is the dimension and, in fact, this actually is where most people in my research will identify as.

They’ll say, “I’ve got enough meaning in my life but I need more of this widening vitality. I need more fun. I feel like I’m not going out as much as I used to do the fun things in the restaurants, or going to a concert, or trying that new printmaking class, or the things that might feel kind of cool and make me feel more alive in a different way, rather than maybe the more one-dimensional existence I’ve been living, which is like rocking my business.” So that’s just one axis is widening your life with vitality.

The other one is deepening your life with meaning, and that is that sense of having a purpose, being connected to people, maybe something bigger than you, like in the spiritual realm. It’s defined as kind of doing good, as opposed to just feeling good. And so, when you mash these together, you’ve got four quadrants.

Pete, you are in what I call the astonishingly alive category, which I know, it’s a big word. I know, but here’s the deal, because why this is, is that you are, you seem to be, you’re living a good life where you’re plus, anywhere positive, even if it’s 0.10 on meaning, and plus on vitality, and so you’re in a good place. There are a lot of people out there, a majority, because, by the way, my research is clear, like 11% of people identify in the astonishingly alive category currently.

And so, most people are in that zone of like, “My job’s meaningful,” or, “Rearing my kids is meaningful, but I’m so freaking bored.” Or, it could be the reverse, which is, “I am having fun. Like, I’m out there. I am traveling. I’m on the yacht, but I go home and I feel like I’m an empty hollow shell. Like, what am I doing this for?” So, there are variations on those themes, but I don’t want to say now that there’s no fun for you, that you can’t do more with this.

Pete Mockaitis
“You’re done.”

Jodi Wellman
No, exactly. Cash in your chips. No, because here’s why. This is why you do this podcast. You’re in a good situation, you’re living life, and yet you are yearning to learn more. You want more. So, nobody I know who’s in the astonishingly alive category is just content to put your feet up and be like, “We are done here.” You want more, and so that is where I do think some of these exercises can be useful.

So, for you, counting your Mondays may not be resonant in a way that you’re like, “No, but I’ve done cool things.” That’s what we’re looking to get to, is that feeling like, “I killed it.” Like, if you got to the end, you’d be able to say…

Pete Mockaitis
So much depth, Jodi. Like, “You’re just going to die.”

Jodi Wellman
That’s where you’re at, like, “Okay, fine. I nailed it. Like, I lived this life. I extracted it. I did it.” You might be able to say that now, and yet, there are also things where if you did play the game with me about the deathbed regrets, or if you knew you had 18 months to live, what would be things that you would, all of a sudden, think, “Oh, I want to do that”?

Those are all just cues and clues to either yearnings or inklings that you might want to get moving on now, and I call them pre-grets. I know it’s super cheesy, but, like, if you identify a regret, you might be like, “Oh, man, I always wish that I had volunteered at that library,” or “I always wish that I had gotten back to playing the violin,” or fill in the blanks. There’s no shortage of examples.

That’s an example of like, “Hey, the good news is, last I checked, you still have a pulse, and if you really want to pick up the violin again, like, dude, it’s yours to pick up!” And then you just get to be the one to decide, like, “Eh, it was a passing fancy, no big deal. My life is great without doing that,” or, “Yeah, you know, I would feel proud of myself if I actually did pick that up,” or go and read to kids from 4: 00 till 5:00, Tuesday evenings, whatever it is. Those are opportunities, I think, to just add even more astonishment to your astonishingly alive life.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really cool. And I like that notion a lot in terms of with the two axes. I’m thinking of a buddy he’s doing a lot of cool things. Like, yeah, he’s into drumming in a band. He’s brewing beer, and going to beer-tasting events, and like golfing and improving his golf. And then his mom said, this is like a very mother thing to say, she’s like, “Oh, you know, all those hobbies aren’t really a vocation.” He’s like, “Oh, that’s heavy, vocation.”

But, yeah, that sort of speaks to meaning, and there’s some truth to that, like all the fun and games with these activities can leave you feeling hollow and/or you might say, “No, I’ve got the dream family, but, oh, my gosh, when do I get to get out of this home and just be wacky”?

Yeah, so two dimensions, you can widen, have more fun widening your vitality, but you might feel hollow, or you can be super fulfilled, but, “Ooh, where’s the fun?” And that does remind me, yeah, I guess the things that are sort of left undone, I mean, some of them I’m just sort of pursuing, like, wouldn’t it be kind of cool to be lighter and stronger at 41 than I was at 21? Well, I’m on my path. I think we’re getting there and it’s sort of exciting to feel the progress from like a fitness perspective.

But then there’s also things that just sort of got left by the wayside, like, you know I always thought it would be cool to learn how to sing, and I’ve never really done that very well. Or, I’ve always been mystified by when I go bowling, which is rare, like one throw of the ball is a strike, the next is a gutter ball, and I don’t think I did anything different. Like, what’s behind that?

Like, I thought it would be fun to spend a day with a bowling coach for no reason, just to solve this plaguing mystery, but, like, though I may only go bowling three times a year for the rest of my life, and it doesn’t matter if I win or lose to me in the least.

Jodi Wellman
Right. This is the cool thing. You are giving examples that I think we, in our rational brains think, “But this isn’t really a thing, is it?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it doesn’t really matter.

Jodi Wellman
And we can call it corny. And that’s one of the things I notice actually in the workshops and work I do, is that people will feel the need to kind of explain away or say, “I don’t even know why I want to do this, but I do,” and it’s like we just have judgments about things. And I’m here to say there’s nothing that is too small or silly.

Because when you look at the span of your life, and remember, I’m the one that gets fanatical about calculating time, usually calculating it backwards, but every single moment of our lives is a little tiny fragment, whether it’s a five-minute or 10-minute, or a bowling excursion, or going out for Thai food, or spending time in a meaningful conversation with a colleague, they’re all just 30 minutes attached to each other.

And so, in our lives, we underestimate that if I was to take, “Hey, what if I did book a bowling guru session?” First of all, that sounds to me like it would be hilarious, and I’m always a big fan of having a good story to tell later. But that could be a thing. It’s a fun thing. Now, this is an example you could probably whip up, and this is what I do in workshops with people.

It’s like, “Get your list going. The things you might come up with first may not make your cut, or you may find it interesting today, and then tomorrow, when you’re seeing the light of day, or you’ve ranked ordered other things, you think all that, “Meh, you know what? I don’t really need to go to the Florida Keys, whatever.”

But at some point, when you have a working list, it gives you the actual solid chance to make choices about your life. Because right now, in the absence of having something that’s concrete, like your list of things that bring you joy, your list of things that would be cool to do, that again I like to organize them on those axes, about fun stuff, deep stuff, vitality, meaning. But now at least you have a menu to choose from about how to design your life.

And life will pass us by. We know this full well. We get to the weekend and, well, first of all, we’re always glad it’s the weekend. But we get through our weeks and they feel like blurs. It’s a very strong signal that we aren’t doing anything that’s unique or different with our time. And in order to even just create the perception of time slowing down so that your 1,822, or however many Mondays you have left, are well spent, it’s about being super conscious and saying, “You know what? I’m going to book that bowling lesson.”

Or, “You know what? I am going to go and plan that road trip that I’ve been talking about for ages.” Or, “I am going to finally schedule that team retreat that I’ve been dreaming about but I just like, am I an all talk no action kind of person? No, I’m going to just book it because it’s on my list, and I’ve said like this is something that I would feel really cool if I did. Would I regret it gravely on my deathbed? Maybe, maybe not.”

But the point is we need to start capturing some of these desires because, otherwise, they will float away and we’ll get focused on the things that are sometimes important, but mostly urgent, Covey style, and the next thing you know, it’s three years later and we’re not any younger. So, this is just really about getting deliberate with what it might take to make a life worth living.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah And, Jodi, I think as folks go through this exercise, they could have moments of inspiration, like, “Yeah, these are all the cool things I’d love to do.” And then disillusionment in terms of, “Oh, but you know, I got to pay the bills, and we got the mortgage, and the kids need these things. And I can’t just abandon my duties and responsibilities.” So, we get excited and then there’s a dose of reality and practicality that’s like, “Wah, wah.” So, how do you deal with those?

Jodi Wellman
How do we deal with that? I am fanatical about making sure that at least, like, do a list of 30 things, 25 at least have to be things that are very doable in a day or a week. So, it needs to be within your resource plan. Like, it can’t be, “Oh, you know what makes me really happy is when I am sailing around the Mediterranean.” Yeah, you and everybody, but that’s not going to be likely. Like, I’m looking for things that are actually very bite-sized on your list. Like, for many people, it’s that they go for a walk on a Saturday morning in the forest preserve.

Like, last I checked that was free. Okay, maybe you have to pay for parking. I don’t know what we’re talking, like five bucks. And sometimes I know busy parents are like, “Dude, when was the last time you had a Saturday morning free?” But I would still challenge you, and say, “Do you have 35 minutes to go and sneak that into your day?”

Identifying things that give you, again, small little bouts of joy. Like, for some people, it’s as simple as, I’m looking right now, of course, at a book. And this comes up a lot when I work with professionals. We read a lot of business books, as we should. They’re amazing. Lots of cool ones. Lots of great self-development books.

And yet, it is a real source of almost guilt but joy about people saying, “I would just love to read a fiction book for a change,” or, “I would love to read a biography, just something kind of mind-expanding.” And that is an example where, what if you read a chapter in the morning over coffee and your piece of peanut butter toast, and you just shook up your routine a little bit?Because we haven’t even talked about novelty, but like having variety in our life is one of the lowest-hanging fruit options out there to shake up our lives, and add just a little bit more, again, of that vitality because we just get into routines. And we’ve been trained by lots of really smart thought leaders that habits and routines are the way. And I’m going to challenge that because I think that it is because we get into the rut, and one of my favorite quotes is by Ellen Glasgow, “The only difference between a rut and a grave are the dimensions.”

Like, we will routinize our lives to the point where they’ve lost sort of the flavor. It just becomes, “I know what I do on Tuesday mornings. I go into the office. I nod at Marcy. I get my coffee. I do the report. I have a status update meeting at 2:00 p.m. and then I go home.” Like, the shaking things up even in ways that we will, again, underestimate the value of, like, going outside.

I just heard from somebody that was at a workshop. They decided to go and spend part of their lunch break walking to a little food stall because they were in a bit of a funk, like, “Let me go walk to a food stall, shake it up a little bit.” They got a taco. Again, we’re not talking about big bucks to live a life that feels really cool, and, like, “Oh, interesting. This is like a new area. I’ve never been here. There was a little bit of sunshine. And I got out, and I came back, and I have a new lease on life to attack my afternoon.”

And those are small things where, again, we’re not talking about doing the bucket list about you have to move to Paris, and you have to divorce your deadbeat spouse, and you have to make these massive plans, like change your career and go back to school. If you feel the urge to do those things, don’t not do them. But for most of us, it’s not about the grand sweeping gestures. For most of us, it’s about deliberate little tiny things that we can pepper our days with that will add up to a life that feels more lived than one that just, again, was like a glossed-over, zombie-version of the life that I think we all deep down really want to be living more alive.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Jodi, this is powerful stuff. Tell me, any other do’s and don’ts or things you want to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Jodi Wellman
Well, definitely, the biggest do of all is do befriend the Grim Reaper. He will take your last breath away in the end, and so I understand the need to keep a distance, but he is absolutely the portal to living like we mean it. So do keep him close by, being aware, count the Mondays. And I’m going to reiterate what I just said. Like, don’t underestimate that small things matter and pick one small thing to take action on. We know this through every business adage we’ve ever found, every to-do, every self-help to-do. It’s like, don’t try and take on the world.

If you can blow your life up and start something. I know a client who said, “I’m leaving my job.” She’s in New Jersey. She’s like, “I quit. I moved down south and I’m opening up an Etsy shop.” That was a lot of life change in an instant, but for her, she needed to make a big signal to herself. But was it like that for most of us?

No. It’s like, what is one thing you can do by the end of this week that is going to make you feel just a little more alive? Is it making a new playlist? You know, is it pulling out the spice drawer and being like, “Oh, my gosh, when was the last time I used garam masala?” Or is it calling your old friend from college and being like, “Dude, we keep talking about getting together. When are we going to…? Okay, October the 9th? Booked.” Like, do a thing that makes you feel like you voted to live. One small thing.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Now, could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jodi Wellman
Oh, my gosh. Hunter S. Thompson, “Life should not be a journey to the grave in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, ‘Wow, what a ride!’”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Jodi Wellman
I’m always a fan of the research that reinforces death reflection helps us be more grateful. So not death awareness, which is just seeing a funeral procession go by. That does freak us out. But, actually, stopping and thinking, “Huh, I have this many Mondays left,” being thoughtful. And then what that does is it does make you more grateful for not just the experience of being alive but for the good things in your life. So, death reflection pays off in multitudes.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Jodi Wellman
I would say anything by Irv Yalom. Y-A-L-O-M. He’s a psychologist that does really cool work. So, Staring at the Sun is a really good example. And it’s this idea about being willing to contemplate mortality.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And a favorite tool?

Jodi Wellman
I’m going to come back to count your Mondays and keep some sort of talisman nearby, they will be your reminder about your fabulous temporariness.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Jodi Wellman
No habit. Remember, habits dull the edges of our existence.

Pete Mockaitis
I love the multiple perspectives here. And a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Jodi Wellman
This idea that sometimes the fear of death is rivaled only by the fear of living.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jodi Wellman
Thanks for asking. I’m over at FourThousandMondays.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, think about your legacy. How do you want to be described when you’re long gone? Not just because you died. Maybe you got promoted. Maybe you got moved to the fancy office in the Southwest. Go do that. How do you want people to think of you when you’re gone? Oh, and, yes, at your funeral. And that is the reverse way to engineer a life that you love and that you are proud to be living.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Jodi, thank you. This has been very, very fun. Jodi, this has been aliveness-boosting. I wish you 1,800 plus joyful Mondays.

Jodi Wellman
I super appreciate it. Thanks for this time well spent.