266: Developing Your Free Time Formula with Jeff Sanders

Pete Mockaitis
Jeff, welcome back to the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Jeff Sanders
Well, hey, Pete. Good to be back here again.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, boy. Well, it’s been, geez, about a year here, which is wild. But back in episode 79, tell me what’s new in your life since then?

Jeff Sanders
Ooh, big question. I think the newest thing is I’ve got a new book coming out in the next couple of months that I’m excited about. And something I actually literally just announced this morning on Facebook is that my wife and I are pregnant with our first child.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, congratulations.

Jeff Sanders
Yeah, a lot of big changes come up this year. I’m so excited.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, totally. Yes. We just had our first, and so exciting. So, yeah, I’m curious how that will adjust your 5:00 a.m. wakeup schemes. That’s cool. I’ve also noticed that you say you are a secret woodworker in your free time. What’s that secret exactly?

Jeff Sanders
Well, I think it’s a secret mostly because I just kind of started doing some like side woodworking for fun. My brother is actually kind of a professional woodworker himself. He does a lot of hand carving and painting of kayak paddles, and he sells those for lots of money, and he’s really good at it. And I have no skills in that area. I just think it’s fun to kind of do some creative projects.

I started actually because I spend so much time on the computer. I wanted a project that was just totally off, you know, non-digital, just so I can get myself in my garage and build something. So that’s kind of what I do for fun in my free time.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s excellent. Cool. Wow. You know, kayak paddles, there’s a market for so many things that I never would’ve imagined.

Jeff Sanders
Very true, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. Well, hopefully, that’s a huge market – how is this for a segue – for your upcoming book The Free-Time Formula which is a cool name. Tell us, what’s the main kind of idea behind it?

Jeff Sanders
Well, the main idea is that most of us, myself included, tend to be incredibly busy. I was having a discussion with one of my friends a few weeks ago, you know, asking like, I hadn’t seen him in a while, I was like, “Hey, how are you doing?” And he gave me that same spiel, “Really busy.”

And I think like a few years ago, I would ask him like how they’re doing, he’d say, “Oh, I’m doing fine,” or, “I’m doing great.” But that has changed now to, “Oh, I’m busy.” And that’s like a marker of how we’re doing and it’s supposed to mean like some sort of a weird way of saying, “I’m so important because I’m busy all the time.”

But, really, I think it speaks to the idea that we’re all really busy because we’re overbooked, we’re stressed out. And the book really came out of that kind of moniker, like we are doing way too much stuff, most of which is not a good use of our time. And so this was kind of like my story of last spring, you know, I went to this big season where I was doing a lot of stuff, and found myself very stressed out, very overwhelmed, and realized, “I could not continue at that pace,” and it wasn’t healthy, it wasn’t sustainable.

And so the book speaks to people like me who are type A, high-achieving, ambitious people, you want to get a lot done. But you’re stressed out, you’re overwhelmed, there’s too much happening. How do you balance that and still be able to get your goals accomplished? But also kind of how the margin, the free time you want in your life so you can live a quality life, and actually have some time to yourself, have some time that’s your own.

And I feel like that is a big challenge for most people because we always feel the sense of just, “Go, go, go,” all the time, and there’s never really a clean break from the busyness. And so my book really kind of tackles that head on and figures out ways to make that possible.

Pete Mockaitis
Intriguing, yes. You know, I’ve often wondered, yeah, I remember I’ve always loved free time. As a kid, I remember I was in a play and I quit the play. I felt very, don’t know, like, “Oh, you’re being a quitter. That’s very bad. Letting people down.” Whatever. I had a very tiny role but I had lots of play practice. And I remember I want to leave because, I don’t know if I’m in like 4th grade or so, because I didn’t have any “free time.”

And then, at the same time, later on, I reflected, “Is any time really free? Something fills it.” So how is it that you define free time?

Jeff Sanders
Well, in the book I kind of get a little bit, I’m not controversial, but like I really hit the idea of free time right in the head and really speaks to the idea that all time is free time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Jeff Sanders
Like every single minute of every single day is up to you. Now that’s a difficult thing to say because, right away, your head is going, “Wait a minute, but I’ve got a job, I’ve got a mortgage, I’ve got kids, I’ve got…” whatever. But the reality is that every single day you can choose something different, but every choice comes with kind of a consequence or a possible benefit, so you have to weigh all those options all the time.

And so the way I look at it is that, kind of more in theory, that your free time is your time. All time is free time, and all time is your free time. So what do you do with the time you have? And can you make better decisions to ensure that the time you have is being better spent. So I feel like most of us, when we approach our days with the sense of a lack of control, that your time is being stolen from you, that your boss makes you go to work, that you can’t do things.

The opposite can be so much more beneficial which is, you know, “I chose this job. I’m choosing to go to work, I get benefits from it. If it’s not the best choice for me, let me find a better option to use that time more efficiently or more wisely for the goals I’ve set for myself.” And I think that that mindset switch to view all your time as your own gives you the power back and allows you then to make choices that are more aligned to the person you want to be.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I like that. And so in terms of just like the feeling, “Oh, I have to go to work,” as if there’s like there’s a drudgery, there’s resignation, maybe resentfulness, a tiredness, you know, just packed all into that sentence, “I have to go to work now.” As opposed to, “I’m choosing to go to work now, recognizing that there’s things I don’t care to do. This isn’t the funnest thing maybe in this particular day. I’m not in the mood. However, in the grand complex ecosystem of commitments that I have, it is a prudent choice for me to go ahead and do this.” So a different feel, for sure, in just terms of how you’re looking at things and, thus, how you feel about it in a moment.

Jeff Sanders
Yeah, exactly. I think that when you approach that with a different like frame of mind it changes your entire perspective on your day. I’ve heard stories just a million times where someone goes into the office who hates their job, and someone else has the exact same job goes in with a positive mindset, and the end results are totally different.

And it’s not just about like trying to make a bad job feel better by being positive, but it’s really, “To approach my day with the understanding that I am making a choice to do what I’m doing.” And when the ball is in your court and the power is in your hands, then you can make a different decision. I feel like that sense of power and control really gives you the opportunity to then make better choices which I think like most people tend to feel like they’re missing.

And if you have that control then you can make those choices that are different and, therefore, your life can change from there.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I dig it. Well, so I kind of want to hear your story when it comes to free time. I have a feeling that there could be some interrelationship between you had an occasion in life where you had to go to the emergency room, and it was due to stress. Kind of what’s the backstory here? And how does free time fit into that?

Jeff Sanders
Well, this kind of ties into what I was talking about with last spring, I mean, a really busy season. I was working through a ton of projects, all of which I opted into. And so my schedule was like packed to the brim. I was excited though. I had a lot of cool things going on that I wanted to do. But because I had basically booked myself to the brim, I had no margin for anything else that would pop up.

And now I had a few challenges that popped up, some financial issues, some weird, like things in my house were breaking, like, you know, just life was happening, right? And so in that season, I basically spassed out. I was like, “Wait a minute. I don’t have time to deal with all of these stuff that’s happening on top of what I’ve already said yes to.”

And so I got myself really stressed out, really overworked, and then the book deal for this book showed up in the middle of all of that which was an opportunity to learn to say yes to, and I did, but in the moment, all I do is add more stress to my life as well. So then when my publisher said, “Well, what’s your topic going to be about?” I was like, “I don’t know. I’m too busy. Let’s talk in a few weeks.”

Well, in that few week period I had basically a complete stressed out freaked out moment panic attack, you can call if you want to, and I ended up in the ER because I was choking on some food, and I was having this weird attack symptoms. It was really bizarre, and the doctor of the hospital was like, “Well, you’re not having an actual heart attack. You’re not actually sick. You’re just burned out like to the max.”

And so I had to figure out a way to kind of wind down from that, and then reframe how I was approaching my work. And so I’m back to my publisher a few weeks later, and I was like, “I’ve got the exact topic for this book. I’m going to talk about like this story of what happened to me, and then how I was able to kind of come out of that,” which is I’ve been able to do that since then. It’s been this bizarre journey of me going from super type A over-caffeinated doing too much work all the time, to what’s the balance between that and having the time that I need for myself.

And there are solutions there. There is a story that unfolds there, but it’s really the intentionality behind it of saying like, “I cause all that and now I have to unwind all that.” And it really has been kind of a bizarre journey.

Pete Mockaitis
Now that’s really intriguing. When you used the phrase “burnt out,” I think we often think about like motivation is out, and you’re kind of blah. But it sounded like your motivation was still good and strong in terms of you like doing all those things. You thought all those things were cool and you went after them with great huzzah and enthusiasm, and ultimately your body just tells you another story about what is possible in terms of your time and your resources there.

So is that fair to say that the doctor said you were burnt out even though your motivation levels are really strong?

Jeff Sanders
Yeah, it was kind of bizarre for me, I think, because at the time, when my doctor told me, “You have to slow things down,” even though I was in the ER at the time, I was like, “No, no, no, but I have things to do, things that I want to get done.” You know, I’m still fighting him even in the hospital. So it was very much like I was so steeped in it that I couldn’t even realize like how I badly I needed to slow down until a few weeks went by, I kind of reflected on it, and realized, “Yeah, I opted into these things, I’m excited about these things. But you only have 24 hours in a day, and you, as an individual, can only do so much so you have to make really important cuts. Like certain things just will not happen.”

And that’s been my biggest lesson from all of this, is figuring out how to say no because I just want to keep saying yes which lends me to those kinds of problems. And so figuring out what matters most and saying yes to those few things, and then no to everything else, that’s the big battle and that’s where that really defines whether or not you can get that balance you’re looking for or you find yourself overwhelmed.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And I also wanted to hear a little bit about sort of maybe your sense of identity or beliefs or mindset or toughness, because in a way I’m thinking, “Okay. Hey, you know what, I’m Jeff Sanders, I’m the 5AM Miracle Dude. I am Mister Productivity.” And I think a lot of us fancy ourselves, in some kind of a way, like maybe similar to that, like, “I’m the guy who always blah, blah, blah,” or, “You can always depend on me for this or that,” or, “I would never be such a person as to just take a nap in the middle of a work day.”

I don’t know. I think we have sort of these, I don’t know, call them vows or sort of self-image things that show up. I’d love to hear a little bit, in your story, in your perspective, was that a factor in play?

Jeff Sanders
No doubt it was. I mean, for sure, like I don’t take naps as a good example of that and I think in part because I feel guilty for taking time off. You know, I have this sense that I need to keep pushing all the time. Even just recently, it was during the holiday break, and I was hanging out with my family, I travel for the holidays and we were just kind of hanging out, opening presents, eating cookies, just kind of things you do on the holidays.

And I kept thinking like, “I have my laptop with me. I could knock out a little work here and there.” But why am I thinking about that? Why is that always in my head? Because I’ve defined myself as that guy who’s always trying to be productive, and I think it’s been, it still is a challenge for me to like unwind that mindset around myself because the best way to be productive, that I’ve seen over time, even to myself, is you’d have those seasons or defined times where you’re doing work. But then when you’re off the clock, you need to actually be off the clock and take a legit break.

And when that happens, you then have the rest you need to come back to the work more refreshed and ready to go. And that’s where the breakthroughs really happen. And so to get to that point where that rhythm can exists, you have to be able to say, “Well, now is work time, but then when that’s done it’s actually done.” And I have a hard time turning that off. But once I do, well, then I see the benefits. I get that refreshing mindset, I’m able to come back better again.

So, yes, I mean, I definitely have defined myself as The 5AM Guy, and like I’m trying to be productive all the time, but it’s working against me in those cases where I’m trying to do too much. And so finding that balance really can not only be good for my kind of mental standard in the moment but also for the image or portraying like real productivity is defining a few things that matter, and giving all your attention to that, and then being able to confidently say no to the things that just aren’t as important which is a hard line to cross if you don’t know where it is. So it’s a journey to make those choices.

But once you know what those things are, and you define what matters to you, it’s amazing to me just how clear it’s becoming to me the things I’ve said yes to that are silly, or the things that I could easily walk away from but I just haven’t out of pride or out of, you know, just old habit, or whatever the case is. And so it’s about defining who you want to be so that the things that matter get your true attention.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. That is good. So, I have so many things to follow up on here. I guess, first, I want to talk about the notion of resting and being off, legit break completely. Do you have some thoughts in terms of what is a great ratio between work and rest? And how can you unplug and make your breaks all the more legitimate?

Jeff Sanders
I don’t have a ratio per se, but I know, I kind of know when I’m going through it. As a good example of this, when I was working on this book actually, I had a season of probably two to three months where, you know, working on the book every day was my number one priority. So, go to the library here in Nashville, and I would write like four to five hours.

And that four- to five-hour chunk was basically all of the creative energy I had in that day, and at the end of that time like my brain was like shutting down, I was tired, it was time to move on. I could just feel it like emotionally. And I could tell over time like that rhythm of saying, “I’m going to go and do the work until that time is done, and I’m mentally kind of done for the day,” then I can shift gears and find something else to work on that doesn’t require any brain cells. I can go do the laundry or shop or something.

And I feel like the rhythm between those activities of where you’re mentally tuned into something, and then when you’re just kind of mentally tuning out, it’s not necessarily a ratio like a per hour, but maybe you could though. Like I know if four to five hours of work time is basically what my brain can do, and then after that I have to change.

And so when you find that rhythm, you can then schedule in the things that matter most during those kind of optimum hours for yourself, and then schedule the lesser important things in the late afternoons when you’re getting a little bit tired or sluggish. That kind of a rhythm can set you up to be able to do what matters every day without getting burned out in a given day.

Pete Mockaitis
And so I’m thinking, then, so that four or five hours, is there anything to, well, hey, it’s intermittent breaks, it could be six, seven, eight hours, or you’re thinking, “Nope, four to five hours is the capacity and it’s just a matter if you put them all contiguously upfront, or if you disperse it throughout the day”?

Jeff Sanders
I mean, I definitely found that doing them all at once earlier in the day was most effective for me. I do tend to have kind of a later in the day kind of extra energy boost, and sometimes in the evening I’ll get some other work done. But I know my primary kind of creative energy happens probably between, let’s say, like 9:00 a.m. and 1:00 p.m. Like that tends to be when I’m on fire.

It varies day to day but like in a general sense, if that was how my life was going to flow, that’s when my brain is on, four solid focused hours with very minimal breaks. In that time period, I’m going to get really high-quality work done. And if I try to break into smaller pieces, I have seen over time that I’ll still get work done but it’ll be less over time. Like I won’t get quite as deep into the material, or I won’t get quite as much accomplished, and I’ll feel more scattered.

Now, I definitely feel a sense of accomplishment when I’m able to do one thing for a solid amount of time. And when I try to book, like five or six little projects in a day, well, that just feels scattered, I feel too busy, and that doesn’t serve me to then want to repeat that. It just kind of burns me out because I just feel like there’s too much happening.

And so part of my kind of rhythm I’m going for is having fewer big things to do per day as opposed to a significant longer to-do list of lots of little things because, for me, personally, that burns me out. That’s too much for me to want to be able to approach my day confidently. I’d rather have just one or two big things.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, that’s a good way to put it, to face the day confidently and so you’re fired up going into it as opposed to, “Oh, boy, this is hopeless. There’s no way this is going to happen. Ugh.”

Jeff Sanders
Yeah, exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Okay. Well, so then, that’s the part about the ratio side of things. And now I want to hear about the unplugging well side of things. Is there any kind of pro tips or tactics or principles, perspectives when it comes to doing a quality unplug and refresh?

Jeff Sanders
Well, I think, for me, what I have seen in the last probably eight or nine years is that the best way for me to unplug is to do the exact opposite of what I usually do when I’m working.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. I love that. You said that in 79, that episode, and I followed it. I was like, “Okay, I’m tuckered. What’s the opposite? You know what, it’s folding this laundry. It’s just the opposite. That is what’s happening now.”

Jeff Sanders
Well, I think it works beautifully whether, let’s say, like a small 15-minute break, I can fold some laundry, or a longer, like three-hour break, on a Saturday morning, I might go for a run in the park. And I feel like whatever it is that’s not what I usually do is when that’s when I feel the most rested, it’s when I feel like I can actually reflect on my work, or I can just not think of work at all, or whatever it is I’m trying to get done. I feel like when I walk away completely and do something that’s completely different and new, that’s when I like I can turn my brain on again, I can turn my energy on again. And then when I do get back to work, you know, let’s say on next Monday morning, I have that sense of rejuvenation and rest that I, otherwise, would definitely not have.

Let’s say, for example, if I spent the whole week on the computer, and then the whole weekend looking at Facebook and social media. Well, I’m still tuned in, there’s still too much happening that same kind of work. And so I’d rather just unplug it away. That really is radically different because that’s what allows me to feel like there’s a sense of rhythm, like you’re on the computer and then you’re totally off. And when I have that back and forth, that allows me to be so much more present in the times that I choose to be on.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Got it. That’s so good. Well, now, in your book you recommend doing a time audit. What exactly is that? How is it done? And what are some things that folks are likely to discover when they do one?

Jeff Sanders
Well, I first heard of this from a guy named Darren Hardy who was the publisher of Success Magazine, and I followed Darren’s work for a long time. He’s an author of multiple books, and he’s a really amazing guy. And this is a lesson he taught probably like 20 years ago now but it’s one that I have applied kind of to my own life in this perspective of looking at how your time is being spent.

And so what he did was timed himself doing what he thought was his most important work every day. So he actually wore a stopwatch around his neck and would time himself whenever he was doing what he said was his most important work for the day. And at the end of the day, kind of looked at the stopwatch just to see how much time he had clocked in that day.

And the answer was 19 minutes. So he literally had only spent 19 minutes of the entire working day doing the activity he said was the most important which was, for him, was this big aha moment, like, “I need to increase that number.” And so the time audit is literally that exact same thing. From the first perspective, you’re looking at just, “What do I do every day?” And the second perspective is, “If I know the most important thing, how much time I’m spending on that?”

And so the only real goal behind this is just to get that number. Like, how much time do you spend on what you claim is your most important thing? And if the number is way too low, which it might be, then you figure out a way to increase that number. And when that happens, then your results go up dramatically because you’re taking that most important activity and giving it so much more attention.

And I have seen that with myself where I get so caught up in things that are not the most important, and I keep delaying that thing, or finding an excuse not to do it. And so I feel like that, the mentality behind that, the intentionality behind saying, “I’m going to get an actual number to look at and calculate and measure and then improve over time,” gives you the ability to then actually monitor your progress and see how much better you’re getting at staying focused on what you said matters most.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very cool. Well, so now, let’s really dig into a little bit of when it comes to this defining, this prioritization, this saying no, I’d love it if you have some particular perspectives, or rules of thumb, or questions that you should ask yourself in terms of, you know, what is something that is truly worthy of being a top priority versus what is something that should clearly get a quick no, and just sort of not even into our to-do list in the first place?

Jeff Sanders
Well, it’s a great discussion, and I feel like the idea of filtering what you do every day is maybe the most important skillset that’s necessary to actually make progress. And I say that because, you know, our ability to kind of make the decision like yes to this and no to that defines what how our day is spent, defines where our energy goes.

And so like I have a question that I’ve written down on a big post-it note on my vision board in my office, which I’m looking at right now, that says, “Is it a nine or a ten? No? Well, then walk away.” And so the idea being that everything I need to say yes to needs to be a nine or a ten. That’s a very subjective scale of one to ten. But in my head I need to be able to say, like, “This thing I’m saying yes to had better be that good. And if it’s not then I should probably find something better to do with my time.”

And so it’s filters like that, or questions like that to ask yourself, “Is this fulfilling a grander goal I’m trying to pursue? Is this next me that I’m going to go to serving a bigger objective? Or is it just another activity that I’ve been saying yes to over time? Or is it just that sounded like fun but it’s only kind of good but it’s not necessarily great or amazing. I want to fill my life with the great and amazing things, the nines and tens in the scale. And to do that, I have to say no a ton.”

And that’s what’s been my biggest lesson probably the last year and a half or so, is how much now I say no. And it’s just constant because there’s so many requests for my time, so many things I could say yes to. My own ideas that I get that I have to turn down to myself because I want to do so many things. It’s like that’s raising the bar in that sense of saying like, “Everything I want to say yes to needs to meet a certain minimum threshold. And if it doesn’t then I probably need to find a way to get out of it.”

And that alone has taken my calendar to a whole new level where it’s actually a whole lot less scheduled. There’s a lot more margin now in it because I’m only saying yes to a few things. And it takes a while to get there. Like this is a process you have to go through probably over the course of many weeks or months because there’s usually so many things over time we’ve said yes to.

So raising the bar can take a while to filter out all the things that’ll meet that criteria, but asking the question, just really analyzing what you’ve said yes to, I have found, over time, has definitely caused me to say no ten times more than the past, which is liberating for me because then I have the free time, then I have the control again that I can say yes to things that are more fun or more influential or more powerful for me. But that journey is a process, but the end-result is amazing because you get to do those things that are so great.

Pete Mockaitis
So now I love that. Does it serve a grander goal? So that’s cool, so I guess you’ve already defined a sort of a small set of goals upfront in advanced. Is this true?

Jeff Sanders
Yes, definitely. I have. I usually do a quarterly goals, and so I have kind of defined like two or three major things I’m working towards. And so really that question then is, “Is this next smaller task or project are going to serve one of those?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Excellent. And so, then, when you say a nine or a ten, do you have a definition for what would be a nine versus what would be a ten? What are those numbers mean to you in qualitative terms?

Jeff Sanders
I think in terms of me, I think back to kind of when I was in school and I was always trying to get an A in a class or on a test. And so, for me, like a 90% of higher qualified, at least, when I went to college, a 90% was an A. And so as long as I can get to that 90, I got the grade I wanted, and I feel like that’s kind of what I’m going for here. It’s like, “Let’s make sure that whatever I’m getting to qualifies as like a super awesome thing.”

There’s some wiggle room there to not be perfect, but it needs to be something that really kind of blows my socks off, and was like, “This is going to be a great thing for me to do that I’m excited about or really helpful for me.” And if I’m not like super pumped about it, or it can be opposite there. If I’m currently involved in something, but I would not go back and sign up for again, then I need to find a way out of it, because it’s not still acting as that nine or ten on my scale.

So it’s a very subjective term, and to define it, it really has to be kind of your own thing, but I know it once I ask the question. When I have something I’m considering, I look at that, I know almost immediately if it’s a yes or a no. And that, for me, is the super powerful part about this that you can just ask the question for whatever it is you’re considering, and you’ll almost always have that gut sense of, “Yeah, this is probably not good enough yet.”

And so then you kind of go back to the drawing board and start over again. But I think that just having that reminder to ask the question, that’s what leads to you understanding what a nine or ten would mean for you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you maybe give us an example of…? All right, you got a goal, and you got a couple of action steps you could take, could you maybe make it real for us by saying, “Hey, here’s something that might fall into the five, six. Okay, not bad territory,” versus the kind of actions and activities that are in clearly the nine- to ten-category for that given goal?

Jeff Sanders
Sure. I’ve actually got a list here of my future projects I’m looking at. I use Evernote to organize my whole life, and so I have a current list of the goals I’m working on, and then a second list of what I just call a future projects and ideas.

And so the future projects and ideas list are things I’m currently looking at and saying, “Will these things at one point become a current project?” And I have them prioritized, ones right now is from one to seven of current things I’m considering. And number two in the list is to grow my own email list. So because as an online entrepreneur, I like to attract people to my website, and then can sign up to my email list, and then I can use that to over time kind of get them to buy products. That’s a very common kind of internet business strategy.

But in my line of work now, that’s less important. I have other things I’m working towards, other ways of making money, other ways of growing my business. So actually specifically growing my email list, for me, is not a nine or a ten. It’s still important, and over time I’ll still work on it, but I’m not going to stop what I’m doing today to go do that project. Like it’s not going to capture my attention, it’s not going to make me, you know, freak out overnight.

I’m going to postpone that until it becomes the next most important thing to push me forward. And that’s kind of the filter I look through is, “Is this next thing going to take or replace what I’m currently working on?” And, generally, I have two to three kinds of current projects, and that’s this. And so if another project is going to come in the mix, it needs to replace one of those, or trump those in some way, and if it’s not powerful enough then the answer is an automatic no.

And so in this case, I’m looking at this kind of, you know, growing the email list project, and telling me, “Well, it’s still important. I’ll hang onto it for now, but it’s not yet a nine or ten for me. And once it is then I’ll know it and I’ll pursue it and it’ll be great. But until then, it just kind of hangs on in that list of like maybe in the future I’ll get to it later.” And that’s where I am today with that project.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. Well, now, with all the no that you’re saying, do you have any favorite ways that you’ve adopted to articulate that to others?

Jeff Sanders
Over time I’ve gotten better at this. I am very bad at saying no, and I say that because in the past the way I’ve said no is I’ve been too blunt, or way too passive. And so either might insult a buddy by being too aggressive with my no, or I do the opposite and I kind of like try to weasel my way around it and not really give a clear answer which then causes that person to be a little confused.

And so I’ve tried to find ways to have what Michael Hyatt calls a graceful no, or basically you’re acknowledging someone, and say like, “I appreciate you reaching out to me,” or, “I appreciate the opportunity. At this time, I’ve got other priorities that I’m pursuing so I’ll have to pass in the moment.” So I’ll use phrases like that to be – and still clearly I’m saying no, but I’m not saying no in a way that’s harsh or where that’s, you know, I still acknowledge the request and acknowledge the person for their offer.

And that tends to happen every day, and I’ve got email templates setup to be able to kind of start with that and customize it a little bit so that I’ve got a starting place to build from, because most of my no’s I get over email so it’s just a very typical kind of like copy-paste and customize and then send, and that saves me a lot of time, and it frees up my ability to move forward to the next thing that matters most without being too hung up on how to say no to somebody.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, tell me, Jeff, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Jeff Sanders
I think that, overall, the idea of productivity and the idea of the book that I’ve been working on, have been for last year or so, really speaks to this idea that we let ourselves get busy and we let ourselves fall into these bad habits, and it takes some real intentionality to get out of it. It’s one thing I see in myself. It’s just so easy to get caught up in the busyness and it takes some real effort to get out of it, but it’s effort that’s really, really worth it because the results you get when you unwind that is just so immediate.

You find that free time, you can see it on your calendar, you can fill it with things that are fun, and I think that though it might be a little bit of work upfront to kind of undo the mess, it is totally worth it and a lot of fun.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Awesome. Well, let’s see, it’d be fun to see if some of your favorite things have evolved in the last year, so let’s do it. Can you share with us a favorite quote?

Jeff Sanders
A favorite quote is one I probably had probably since the last time we talk, it’s from Albert Einstein, which is, “In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.” I love that quote because it really speaks to this idea that whatever challenge I’m facing, there is an opportunity to be seized in that. And so I’m asking myself, “What is the opportunity in the middle of this thing that I’m fighting against, so this thing that I’m frustrated with? How can I grow from this? How can I move forward?”

And almost every single time, when I look at that quote, and I ask that question, you know, “Where is the opportunity here?” I find it. Like it’s always there. And so that’s my focus, is just always figuring out, “What is that next opportunity there?”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I love that. And sometimes I’m also thinking about, well, when it comes to the quote, “Necessity is the mother of invention,” it’s like a lot of times that opportunity is through sort of a brilliant breakthrough, you know, in terms of, “I could do something in a completely better way,” or, “I could find a new product, service, tool, solution that I didn’t even know existed before, but now that I need it I find it and then it’s like, well, it’s part of my life forever. It’s super helpful.”

So that works on many levels. I dig it.

Jeff Sanders
Totally. Love that.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite book?

Jeff Sanders
Favorite book. Right now, I’m actually re-reading one of my favorite books, it’s called Ultramarathon Man by Dean Karnazes. It is a book that specifically is about running ultramarathons which is super, super long marathons but, really, the book is just a bunch of stories about how crazy Dean Karnazes actually is in his abilities to push himself to incredibly challenging just feats of human potential. And I think it’s amazing to listen to and watch and participate in like what he is doing.

I’m actually interviewed him on my podcast a few years ago, and he is just such an inspirational guy because he is always asking the question, like, “How can I push further? Like what can I do next to kind of blow away my own potential?” And I think that those kind of life lessons you can apply to anything.

Yes, I love to run marathons myself, too, and it’s definitely a running book, but I use those same lessons in everything else that I pursue. It’s like, “How can I push this next project further? How can I expand my own limited thinking and think bigger and do something that’s more bold?” And I always find that there’s something else I could pursue that’s bolder and bigger and more fun. So I love the lessons in that book.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Okay. Cool. And how about a favorite tool, something that helps you be awesome at your job?

Jeff Sanders
Recently, actually I switched back from – I was using a task manager called Nozbe. It’s my primary way to schedule my whole life. And I just went back to kind of an old-school calendar to look at my entire life. And for some reason that’s been like eye-opening for me. It’s just to see my life schedule in a new way. And this I do every couple of years. I will intentionally change tools with the way that I schedule my time just to see if I can find a new way to view it.

And so that always leads to some kind of epiphany. I always realize, like, “Oh, there is this thing I was missing,” or, “There’s an opportunity to fill in time here.” And when I do that, like it always opens my eyes to, you know, there are other ways to see the same thing. And if I can see myself in different perspectives, I can change how I am to be better and to improve over time.

And so I intentionally will change up the tools I’m using just to be able to see the same projects or same calendar up from a new perspective to improve myself. And I think it works really well.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a particular nugget that you’ve been sharing in your book that really seems to connect and resonate at least with those who got to take a sneak peek in advance, that they share back to you in their digging?

Jeff Sanders
I think that one thing I have heard of more, what I said before actually, is that idea that free time is your own time. I was talking to a guy just recently who had that same kind of thought when he was looking at his calendar. This is a guy who’s kind of similar to me. He had overbooked, he’s a musician here in Nashville, and he has said yes to so many different projects, and he started to unwind all those to change up the way he was operating based on this concept that your time is your own.

And he kind of had the same realization that like, “Wait a minute. I’ve said yes way too many times to these things. And if I have this new perspective of my time, like I can own it better.” And I think the ownership perspective of your time is such a powerful thing, and it’s the one thing that I keep going back to myself because I’m in that same boat where I kind of I let myself have that same old have to do blank.

But I think it’s really powerful that we don’t have to do whatever it is. We can choose something different, and then we do, we get better results.

Pete Mockaitis
And, Jeff, if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jeff Sanders
JeffSanders.com is the best place to go. I think that’s where I’ve got my books, podcasts, other things I’m working on there. So, yeah, that’s the place to be.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jeff Sanders
Be intentional of your time off. I think it’s really important to be able to take a big step back from the busyness of your day and your week. I do a process, it’s a weekly review, where every single week I kind of analyze how the week went. But I think beyond that, more importantly, having intentional time off to do, like I said before, like the exact opposite of your job, like have time away so that when you do come back you’re more refreshed. I think it’s a very powerful thing that a lot of us tend to ignore because we get too busy. So be intentional about it and make sure you have at least some time set aside once a week to take a big step back.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Well, Jeff, thank you. This has been so much fun. I wish you tons of luck with the new book, and your many projects, but also chilling out and baby coming up and so much.

Jeff Sanders
Yeah, thank you, Pete. I had fun today.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. Thank you.