254: How to Afford Anything and Care for your Career with Paula Pant

Pete Mockaitis
Paula, thanks so much for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Paula Pant
Thank you for having me.  This is already great.

Pete Mockaitis
Aw, shucks.  Well, it was a delight to be on your show, so thank you again for that opportunity.  And so, I’m excited to cover some of the good stuff here.  And first thing’s first – I understand you had a childhood dream to work at Taco Bell.  What is the origin of this and did you ever come to realize that dream?

Paula Pant
That was absolutely my childhood dream.  In fact, you know when you’re a little kid and they give you that booklet in school where each year you can write your height and your weight, and then you can write what you want to be when you grow up – it was my 4th grade year, I filled out that I wanted to work part-time at Taco Bell.  

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. [laugh]

Paula Pant
And I clearly remember my reasoning, and it was that I figured I would be able to eat Taco Bell every single day, and I could not think of a better career benefit than that.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s awesome.  My wife still loves Taco Bell, and I enjoy it from time to time.  So tell me, are you still a fan of Taco Bell and did you end up ever working there?

Paula Pant
I absolutely love Taco Bell, yes.  But I never ended up working there.  When I was 15 I applied for a job and they told me that I had to be at least 16.  So then I went over to the McDonald’s because they would hire at 15 and then I ended up just kind of getting stuck there.  So I never did fulfill that childhood dream.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, interesting.  Well, now they’re kicking themselves.  They wish they would’ve had the chance, but it’s over now.

Paula Pant
Right.  I guess never say never.

Pete Mockaitis
It could happen.  Well then, tell us – you current gig, Afford Anything at AffordAnything.com – what’s this all about?

Paula Pant
So, how this all started was, I’ve only ever worked in traditional employment – I’ve only ever had an employer – for a total of three years, and I quit that job in 2008 and I had about $25,000 saved up at that point.  And so, I started traveling.  And I spent about a year in Southeast Asia, just kind of backpacked around.  And when I was doing that a lot of my friends kept saying, “Oh, I would love to do something like that, but I can’t afford it.”  That was the number one thing I heard.  

But this was coming from people who lived in nicer apartments than I did, they drove nicer cars than I did, they had their hair cut and highlighted at salons.  They were spending in some pretty serious ways, and yet they believed – they honestly believed – that they didn’t have enough money to travel.  

And so, I started the blog Afford Anything initially in order to impart to people the idea that you can afford anything, but you can’t afford everything.  And every decision that you make is a tradeoff against something else, and that’s not just true of your money; it’s true of your time, your focus, your energy, your career moves.  It’s true of everything that you do.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely it is.  And I remember when I first learned about the concept of opportunity cost in an economics class I was like, “Whoa, that’s heavy.”  It hit me so hard and it was so profound that when the teacher kept talking I was like, “Can we just have a moment here?  This changes everything.”

Paula Pant
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, understood.  So, you had a change of perspective relative to your friends, in terms of how you were choosing to prioritize and spend your dollars on travel-type adventures.  Very cool.  So then, is that the story of the website right here right now?  What’s the mission, what’s the ethos?

Paula Pant
Sure, yeah.  That’s the origin story of the website, but then what happened was, I started this site almost seven years ago, and over that period of time I was dedicated to never going back to the workforce.  So initially that manifested as myself becoming an entrepreneur, becoming self-employed.  In the beginning I used to write a lot about that.  

And then I realized that if I started saving money and building investments and using those investments to buy assets that would produce an income stream, then that income stream would be initially supplemental income and later it grew to be big enough that it could cover my basic cost of living.  Nothing fancy – it’s about $40,000 a year, but 40 grand a year is enough for me to cover my basic cost of living so that I’m never going to worry about not being able to buy groceries, not being able to keep the lights on.  

And as a result, it a) provides some security, some psychological security, and b) as a result of that security it allows me to take more risks as an entrepreneur to push myself harder in the areas in which I am passionate.  So, that’s been a lot of what I’ve written about on the blog.  I’ve written a lot about financial Independence on Afford Anything.  That wasn’t the original purpose of it; it’s just I’ve changed over the course of seven years and the blog has reflected that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, one thing I found so interesting about you and money is that you have had a number of years of life in which you saved or invested over half, more than 50%, of your income.  And I think that’s quite intriguing, because many folks struggle to save 10%.  And I often share with folks that when it comes to career choices, you want to optimize for happiness instead of money, and sometimes people are like, “I can’t take less money, that’s going backwards.  It’s wrong, it’s bad, how would I even afford it?”  But you have managed to save over half of income, which is striking.  Tell us, how was that done?

Paula Pant
Sure, absolutely.  Well, first of all, to give a little bit of a backstory – I graduated from college in 2005, and that one and only job that I’ve ever had – that was 2005 to 2008.  When I started working there in ’05, my starting salary was $21,000, and when I quit that job in 2008, my ending salary at that point was $31,000.  Those are not the years in which I was saving 50% of my income, to be clear, but that was what I earned during that 3-year period.  

So the highest amount of money that I’d ever earned is $31,000 at the top end, as a salary.  And what that meant is that the combination of being a college student, which I think many of us have experienced – those lean, scrappy days, and then being a full-time salaried worker who earned in the 20s, I just got used to living very, very cheaply, to a degree that I think would make a lot of people uncomfortable.  For example, my husband and I had roommates until we were age 35 and 31 respectively.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, now when you say “roommates”, you mean that they are in the same unit in another bedroom?

Paula Pant
Correct.  Yes, I mean we shared a kitchen, we shared in many cases a bathroom, yes.  I mean people who when you enter the door at night, they are sitting on your living room couch watching television.

Pete Mockaitis
In a way I think that’s awesome, because one – it is non-traditional, it’s different, and two – my wife and I actually discussed this option. [laugh] Because I had an amazing apartment – we called it the Strat – and I lived there for 10 years with awesome roommates who came and went.  And then we figured, “We’re getting married, we’re finding a place, what should we do?”  And the option was on the table – should she move into the Strat and have a number of other dude roommates?  And so, we weighed the pros and cons and ultimately decided not to, but I thought that that was pretty cool of her to be even willing to consider it, as opposed to saying, “Yeah, no.  No way.”

Paula Pant
Yeah, exactly.  Exactly.  And so, Will and I did that – we started living together when I was 24 or 25 when we started living together, and then I was 31 when we stopped living with roommates.  And he was 35 at the time when we stopped living with the roommates.  So, that was the vast majority of our relationship so far, has been with roommates.  And that’s just one of many examples, I could keep going.

Pete Mockaitis
I’d love it, please do.

Paula Pant
Well, my car.  For a year and a half I drove a car that I bought for $400.  The seller wanted $450 for it, but I talked him down.  After that I traded up to a car that was valued at $1,500.  So, just example after example after example like that.  My husband is a vegetarian, which means that our grocery costs are lower.  Now I’m not suggesting that people become vegetarian purely for the sake of saving money, but I’m just highlighting all of these as examples of ways in which people spend that they don’t even realize that they’re spending.  Somebody might say, “But my massive grocery bill – this is a need, it’s groceries.  What’s more basic than that?”  Yes, but you can trim there.  “Housing – it’s a need.  What’s more basic than that?”  Yes, but there are ways to do it.  

And so, I guess the short answer to your question, Pete, in terms of how did we save 50% of our income – really it’s twofold.  Number one is that we did increase our income.  I couldn’t have saved 50% back when I was making $21,000 a year.  So, increasing our earnings, increasing our income was definitely a part of that, but also living with roommates, driving a $1,500 car, eating vegetarian food from Costco at home, not going to a hair salon, not getting manicures and pedicures and facials and all the other stuff that people do – that was all a huge part of it as well.

Pete Mockaitis
So now, living that frugal life, did you find joy, happiness, an experience of goodness, or was it sort of austerity and drudgery amidst these sacrifices?

Paula Pant
Well, it depends on what year you’re talking about.  I’ve had many phases of my life, and there’ve definitely been phases in which I’ve gone overboard and I’ve been frugal to the point where it was unhealthy.  But I’ve also had phases, and I think I’m in one right now, in which I have a very good balance and my living brings me a lot of joy.  

And because we have such strong savings, and because we’ve had a habit of saving and investing for many years, I never have to go back into W2 employment, unless I absolutely want to.  But I never have to; I’ll never depend on that for a paycheck, barring some incredible circumstance.  I’ve been able to have the career that I want, do the work that I want, run my business in the way that I want for many, many years now, and it’s because I’m not worried about keeping the lights on.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s awesome.  Cool, agreed.  There is a huge value to that, and that’s cool.  And so then, not that this is the “Quit your job, escape the rat race” podcast – there are plenty of those.  Here we like our jobs for the most part, or are looking to make a switch.  But what I find really intriguing is that when it comes to the leaps that you’ve made when it comes to your adventures and career moves and entrepreneurship, as you say that much of it had to do with the inner psychological struggles, whether it’s self-doubt or the fear or impostor syndrome.  Can you share a little bit about what those sounded like in your head, how you overcame them, and if there are any key transferable tips and tools for others?

Paula Pant
Sure, absolutely.  So first of all, when I did quit my job, I was extremely worried about whether or not I was committing career suicide, because I worried that having a gap on my resume would make me less appealing to future employers.  At the time I didn’t realize that I would not be employed.  Do you know what I mean?  At the time that I quit, I anticipated quitting my job for a couple of years and then going back into the traditional workforce.  

And so, I really worried about the gap on my resume.  And I think that women in particular might want to quit their job in order to become full-time caretakers for a couple of years.  I think many women also have that same concern: “Am I going to look less serious to a future employer?  How can I explain this gap?”  And honestly, the fear of that probably kept me at that job for at least 6-8 months longer than I otherwise would have been.  I just hated the idea that everything that I’ve worked for might be for naught.  

And I’m not sure at the time if there was a way that I got over it.  Eventually I just got so frustrated with the status quo, I was so unhappy going into that job day after day that I had to quit, there was just no other choice.  I don’t think I really ever got over that fear.  I think that fear stayed with me for many years.  In fact, probably part of the reason that I saved so much and invested so much was because, as I said, I wanted to create alternate streams of income that didn’t depend on an employer, because I always had that fear of, “What if I need a job and nobody wants me?”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s interesting.  And so then, I thought we were going to talk about brilliant psychological tools, but instead… It’s intriguing how you’re suggesting that it was more about an adaptation, in terms of because that was the fear, you built your life and your options and your game plan in some ways around it or accommodating for that fear.

Paula Pant
Yeah, exactly.  I think that’s a very good way of putting it.  Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, intriguing.  Now, I imagine though that you had some additional inner psychological challenges with the self-doubt, the fear, the impostor syndrome stuff during the course of building your business and putting out content and charging for things and choosing to buy a property, and those things.  And yet you’ve managed to come out on top.  You’re doing well in those areas.  So, did you come up with any kind of patterns or means by which you overcame those difficulties?

Paula Pant
Well, a few things.  Number one – it’s funny, because from the outside looking in, you might say that I’ve come out on top, I’ve been successful, but internally I can perceive the gap between my current self and what I imagine myself if I were operating at my full potential to be.  All success is relative.  So to the outside world to some people I may seem successful, but to myself I really don’t feel that way.  So, I suppose the answer to your question, again, it kind of goes back to, the imposter syndrome never goes away.  I think people’s perceptions of themselves often lag reality, because you see yourself the way you were a year ago, rather than where you are now.  

Pete Mockaitis
That’s insightful.  Please elaborate, I like that.

Paula Pant
Yeah.  My perception of myself just continue… Within my business I’m always advancing, but my self-image was formed for many, many previous years, and that self-image is hard to shed.  So there’s always a lag time between the two.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s intriguing.  And it really resonates for me, with regard to, I’ve had the thought on numerous occasions, whether it comes to a big opportunity or whatever pops up.  It’s just like, “I’m just a kid.  I don’t really know what I’m doing.”  And it’s sort of like, fill in the blank.  Whether it’s iTunes rankings and who knows how those work exactly, but it was like, “I don’t know if I really am top 5, 10 careers podcasts in terms of the sheer outstandingness of this program.”  

And then being in media, like New York Times or Forbes – it’s like, “I’m not really like a super brilliant dude.”  I mean I definitely have figured out some things and have some strengths and can be valuable to folks, but I really don’t have all the answers.  I’ve got some great questions though.  And so it’s intriguing, but I’m right with you in that I think a year from now I will feel less of that – I don’t know if you’d call it “imposter syndrome” – but that notion that, “Hey, third-party, I think you may be overvaluing what I can really bring to the table.”

Paula Pant
“You may be overestimating me.”  Exactly, exactly.  So I suppose, Pete, that the short answer to your question is that that never goes away, it’s never really overcome.  The lag is always there and you just keep moving forward anyway, in spite of it.  And you also recognize, as you and I are talking about right now, that everybody else around you who you perceive to be successful, also feel the same way.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good, that’s good.  And so then, in the moments where you do it anyway, it sounds like maybe there’s no magic formula or a trick or a framework, so much as you just take the step.  But I’m wondering, you and I have both purchased real estate before, and so maybe can you share with me, were there some times in which you were sort of intimidated by the enormity of what you were committing to or taking on, and how did that end up unfolding?

Paula Pant
Sure, absolutely.  So as background for everyone listening, I have seven rental units.  That’s where the net $40,000 annually comes from – from my investments.  And right before I bought the first property, which was a triplex, I remember my best friend said to me on the phone, “How could you possibly compete against all of those real estate agents and contractors and all those industry professionals?  Who are you?”  

I remember I was 27 at the time, so 27 with zero real estate experience – I’d never even owned my own home.  Heck, I’d never even lived without roommates, and I still wouldn’t for a number of years.  And so she said, “How could you possibly compete with everybody out there who is actually a professional in this field?”  And that ripped me apart; that really stopped me in my tracks.  I’m sorry, what was your original question?  It was how did I overcome that, how did I blow past that?

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly.  That’s great – you took us right to that moment there.  It’s like – doubt!  Here we are, you’re about to do something big and someone you trust raises a valid, genuine concern.  So yeah, walk us through the story there.

Paula Pant
Again, not to sound like a broken record, but I never really got over it.  I just decided I was going to do it and I proceeded full speed ahead.  I suppose I didn’t have huge ambitions of buying 100 properties; I just wanted to buy that first one and make that first one work.  And even though I had doubts about how I would be able to stack up against all of these other industry professionals, I believed that I could at a minimum buy one property and make that cash flow positive, and make that a very solid investment and a very solid passive income stream.  And once I did it with the first property, then it was easier to buy the second.  And once I did it with the second, it was easier to buy the third.  So I suppose that is the other way that I did it, was I just took it one step at a time.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly, that’s good.  And it was based upon the facts.  It seems like, I’m sure you had your spreadsheets etcetera, and so you were looking at that and it’s like, “Well, I don’t know why the real estate professionals didn’t care to snap this one up and outbid me, but here we are.  The inputs and the outputs are what they are, and this looks totally workable.”

Paula Pant
Absolutely.  Yeah, absolutely.  And I gave myself room for error; I gave myself wiggle room.  Again, that goes back to only buying one property at a time.  If I had tried to buy 10 in that first year, or even five in that first year, I would have collapsed under the weight of it all.  But by going one property at a time, I experienced my learning curve and then moved forward.  So I think that that also helped as well.  I recognized that there would be a learning curve and I gave myself enough time to have that.  

I did the same thing when I started the business.  There are some people who I hear they’re new entrepreneurs, they’re enthusiastic, and they have these huge ambitions of triple-digit growth and scale and this and that and the other.  And my approach is very different – my approach is, “Whoa, okay.  Put on the brakes, slow down, you don’t want to grow too fast.  Grow slow so that it’s sustainable.”

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly.  Right, because you don’t want to collapse under having way too much that you can’t handle and then disappointing all of your respective customers, so that’s wise.  So, a bit at a time and leaving some room for the learning, and that unfolds there.  And so, I want to also cover a little bit when it comes to just wise decisions, in terms of the allocation of your money, your time and career decisions and running your life.  So that is sort of a theme that shows up on your site frequently, and so I’d love it if you could share with us what are a few of your key principles that you find you come back to again and again, when it comes to wise decision-making?

Paula Pant
So, first of all, constantly recognizing tradeoffs, because every suggestion – not every, but many suggestions sound good in a vacuum.  Do you want to go to this amazing conference in Seattle, or do you want to accept this freelance project from a client?  All of those sound really amazing in a vacuum, but recognizing that each one comes with tradeoffs and recognizing that saying “Yes” to one thing implicitly means saying “No” to others.

Pete Mockaitis
There’s the opportunity cost again.  It’s heavy; you’ve got to sit with it.  Word.

Paula Pant
Exactly.  And you have to remind yourself of it on a daily basis, because there are always going to be more good options than there is time and energy to pursue those all.  And sometimes you have to say “No” to the good in order to make room for the great.  So, I keep that in mind whenever I’m making decisions about money, time, energy, anything like that.  I try to keep my priorities in order.  So that’s one thing, that’s one aspect of wise decision-making.  

Another aspect is focusing on only one thing at a time.  So this relates back to what I just talked about, in terms of, I’m just going to buy this one house, I’m going to make sure that I’ve got it really solid, and then only I’m going to do the next thing.  But that doesn’t just play out in real estate investing; it plays out in every facet in life.  

So, if I’m working on a new project within my company, I’m not going to start another major project.  I might have some little minor things that I begin, but there’s only going to be one huge, large project that the company is working on at any given point.  And it’s only when that is done that we’ll put that aside or put that on maintenance mode and then move forward.  So, I suppose the short way of saying that is that I’m only aiming for growth in a very narrow space at a time.  Everything else goes on maintenance, but the growth is extremely focused.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, understood.  Cool.  So now I’d also like to hear when it comes to professionals and your wisdom and tips for them.  What are some things that come up again and again, in terms of the advice that you’re offering for professionals that want to flourish all the more in their work lives?

Paula Pant
Well, a couple of things.  So, number one – I’m a big believer in self-care as a form of career care.  So getting eight hours of sleep, and exercising – things like that that a lot of people dismiss.  In fact, people often times try to martyr themselves on their desk.  They’ll brag about how little sleep they got – I think that’s a big mistake.  If you get eight hours of sleep and you get cardiovascular exercise, and you have laughter in your life and you’re happy – that can really help a professional flourish at work, regardless of what type of work you’re doing.  

During the work day, unitasking – the opposite of multitasking – is I think pivotal, because there’s attention residue every time that we task-switch.  And so, turning off your notifications, not task-switching, and planning out your day such that you have large chunks of time in which you can go into deep work mode – that I think is crucial for being productive.  Your success at work is based on your results, rather than your hours, and so by unitasking you can have strong, focused results in fewer hours.

Pete Mockaitis
Totally.  Okay.  Well now, I’d love to get a quick perspective from you before we shift gears as well, about sort of financial stuff.  So, you gave some cool perspective on how really it’s possible to live at much, much less expenditure on a daily, monthly basis.  Any other pro tips that you find time and time again are helpful for folks to get a quick upgrade to their financial game?

Paula Pant
Sure, absolutely.  So number one – if your goal is to start saving more of your income, but you feel as though you can’t, which is the most common objection that I hear: “Oh, I’d love to save more, but I can’t” – try this.  I call this “The 1% challenge”.  This month whatever it is that you’re currently saving, save one additional percent.  

So if you make $5,000 a month, 1% is $50.  This month save one additional percent more.  Next month, do the same thing again.  So if you make $5,000, this month you save $50 additional, next month you save another $50 on top of that.  So next month you’re saving 2% more than you currently are.  If you continue this over the course of a year, then you can do the math – at the end of the year you’re saving 12% more than you are right now.  But you’ve done it in these 1% increments and so the pinch doesn’t feel as severe.

Pete Mockaitis
And I imagine that’s probably pretty fun.  At least that’s how I imagine it, because it’s sort of like strategically my strategy brain goes in a place like, “Okay, where can I find, in this example the $50 bucks a month that is not going to hurt as much?”  And so then you’ll start saying, “You know what?  How often do I really use these subscription services?  Maybe instead of Spotify I’ll just download the 30 songs I listen to constantly and we’ll cancel Spotify”, for instance, etcetera, etcetera.  It’s sort of like you get to take your shot bit by bit.  And could you share in your own experience or of those you’ve influenced some of the top places people end up targeting first?

Paula Pant
Sure.  So, this sounds incredibly boring, but it’s very effective: Go through all of your insurances and make sure that you have reasonable levels of insurance.  Insurance in terms of auto Insurance, homeowner’s insurance, life insurance policies – people have so many different forms of insurance and they often don’t even know what they have.  And often it’s something that you sign up for once and then you never look at again.  Again, just batch some time – set aside four hours on a Saturday, and you don’t have to do this often, just do it once a year.  Go through all of that, and often times you’ll find better value, better coverage relative to the premiums you’re paying that could save you hundreds of dollars in a year.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s a great.

Paula Pant
So that’s one thing.  A lot of the readers who have gone through the 1% challenge, most people don’t literally save exactly 1.000% every month.  What I’ve typically seen is that their savings end up coming in chunks.  So in one month you’ll cancel Spotify and HBO GO, and that’ll save you $25 a month, and then the next month you’re not quite sure.  So maybe month 1 you didn’t quite hit that 1% target, but then in month 2 you realize that you and your spouse can actually downgrade to only one car, and so you sell the other car, and boom! – now you’re at the 12% already.  

So, that’s what I’ve seen happen with most of my readers, is once you get people thinking about how to do it, that usually sets the wheels in motion.  It’s usually the initial momentum that gets people to big advances, but money is not in most cases so linear that it literally ends up being $50 a month.  I think what’s important is having the impetus to get you going, and to have a framework that shows you how saving an additional 10%, 12%, 20% is more reasonable and more attainable than you might think.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think that’s really cool with the example of the car and wheels in motion, I’m thinking about Getaround right now, which is a website that enables you to share cars like Airbnb.  So I’ve been carless most of my adult life, for over a decade now.  We’re considering buying a car because we have a baby coming; it might be tricky to get places with a baby in the absence of car.  And I don’t want that new expense in my life, but we’re looking at opportunities like Getaround, which enables people to rent it out at times, which is pretty cool.  

And so, there’s all this sort of innovative means by which you can get that savings, not only with cost reduction, but sort of income-offsetting, when it comes to picking up roommates or Airbnbing out a room or with Getaround.  So, I love the paradigm that you’re shifting here, in terms of really opening it up, in terms of what it’s possible to live on and creative means by which expenses can be reduced or offloaded.  That’s so good.  Any other quick tips?

Paula Pant
Actually I’m glad that you brought up Getaround, because the flip side to the 1% challenge – we’ve been discussing savings so far – but what I really emphasize with my audience is that in personal finance goals there tends to be a little bit of a rift between people who encourage earning more versus people who encourage saving more.  So, there are two different camps that tend to argue with each other a lot.  

And what I always tell the Afford Anything audience is, ignore the debate over “earn more versus save more” and instead focus on what those two ideas have in common, which is growing the gap between your income and your spending.  So, you’ve got your income, you’ve got your spending, your job is to grow the gap between the two.  

And there are only two ways to do that – earn more or spend less, and Pete, since you and I have been talking about the “spending less” side of the equation for the past several minutes, let’s talk about the flip side of the 1% challenge, which is challenging yourself to earn more; challenging yourself to earn an extra 1% or 2% this month.  And so, something like renting out your assets, renting out your car or your guest room through Getaround or Airbnb – that’s a perfect example of how people can nudge their income up a little bit as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.  That’s good, I love it.  And then there’s sort of freelancing, like whatever skill you have – if you can make a website or give a massage.  

Paula Pant
Well, generally speaking when you look at the gig economy, the opportunities that have low barriers to entry tend to have the lowest pay.  So those are good stepping stones – signing up to become an Uber driver for example – there are relative low barriers to entry with regard to getting on the ground.  So if you need a quick hit of cash, if you’re in a dire situation – that’s a great way to get some quick cash.  

But in terms of using your skill set to make the most of your time – that’s not necessarily where many people would want to stay forever; it’s just a stepping stone.  So, if you are looking into the gig economy, look past the low barrier to entry opportunities and take the time to develop a skill set or an asset that will pay you more over the long run.  

So for example, if you have a particular expertise, you could become an expert witness and have a side gig or a side business giving expert testimony in court cases.  You could become a coach or a tutor or a teacher at a high-end level.  There are many things.  Depending on your skill set, there are many ways that you could use your skill set in a way that gives you a high hourly rate and / or gives you a recurring passive stream of income.  So I would encourage people as you’re going down the gig economy rabbit hole to start thinking about opportunities that are scalable.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s so funny.  Being an expert witness – that’s fascinating.  I forgot that those exist.  But I’m just imagining myself now on the stand – it’s like, “I’ve interviewed hundreds of people about what it takes to be awesome at your job, and Your Honor, I can attest that this person was or was not awesome at their job in his wrongful termination.”  Oh, that would be interesting.  You could make some friends and enemies that way, huh?

Paula Pant
Probably, but Pete, you’re also an expert at podcasting.  You have a podcast that is in what, the top 5 or top 10 career podcast in iTunes.  You could certainly be an expert witness to talk about the podcasting industry.

Pete Mockaitis
Are those people called into trials and on what basis?

Paula Pant
If there is a need you will find it.  There are a few websites that link attorneys with expert witnesses, so all you would need to do is sign up, report what your areas of expertise are, and then when that need arises you’ll be contacted by an attorney.  

And with a field like podcasting, which is so new and in which the laws are unclear, that seems to be ripe with court cases in which people are trying to determine copyright law, people are trying to determine what’s normal within the industry, people are trying to determine if content that you hear in a podcast could be considered advice and should be held to a higher standard, or it’s purely considered entertainment.  There so many different use cases for why new and emerging technologies would be debated, that those experts are needed.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s awesome.  Well, I love the way you’re opening up our horizon.  And can you drop a couple of URLs right here and we’ll link to them in the show notes?

Paula Pant
Let’s see.  Let me pull this up because I don’t want to give you a wrong one.  Wyzant is one of them.

Pete Mockaitis
Isn’t that for tutors?

Paula Pant
Yes, that is the tutor one.  What’s the expert witness one?  I didn’t mean to turn this into a conversation about expert witnesses.

Pete Mockaitis
No, it’s cool.  I think that just gets the wheels turning a little bit.  It’s like, “Oh, I could be an expert witness.  Let’s look at the website.  Wait a minute, I know about this.”  It’s a little iterative inspiration.  Oh, there’s a good phrase I made.

Paula Pant
There we go – TheExpertInstitute.com.  And Wyzant, which I mentioned is another way.  A lot of people contact me and they say, “Look, I signed up for Upwork, but everything there is a race to the bottom in terms of fees.”  So, if that is your experience, then get off of Upwork, because you don’t want to be competing with people who are competing on cost to low.  You want to distinguish yourself based on the value that you offer.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome, cool.  Alright, thanks.  Paula, tell me – anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Paula Pant
Sure, absolutely.  The other tip that I would offer to professionals or to anybody who wants to flourish and to make smarter decisions is, recognize some of your cognitive biases.  So, Pete, what you had just mentioned – I don’t know the name of this particular cognitive bias – but your mind goes to what you have most recently encountered.  

So Pete, if what you have most recently encountered is podcasting in one very specific form, you might not recognize all of the other use cases for what podcasting expertise could offer.  So that recency bias could limit your thinking.  

The sunk cost fallacy often limits people’s thinking.  The sunk cost fallacy is what comes up when a person decides, “I’ve already put so much money into this, or I’ve already put so much time into this, I may as well keep going.”  Which is irrational, because just because you have committed X time and money into a project, doesn’t mean that you should also commit future resources into that same project.  But it is that cognitive bias, it’s that fallacy that gets a lot of people hung up.  

Loss aversion is another cognitive bias, where people are more upset about real actualized losses rather than missed opportunities.  You might be upset about a $3 bank fee, but not about the extra $3,000 that you could have put into your business at the beginning of the year, that would have caused it to grow in a bigger or better or maybe more strategic way than it ended up doing.  

My point is, people get upset about real losses, whereas people don’t often get upset about missed opportunities, and that is an example of loss aversion, and loss aversion is an example of a cognitive bias.  And recognizing your cognitive biases and being very aware of those is a strategy for making smarter decisions and flourishing at work.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect, thank you.  Well now, could you share with us a favorite quote, something inspiring to you?

Paula Pant
Sure.  One of my favorites is a quote by Jim Rohn, that “You are the average of the five people you spend the most time around.”

Pete Mockaitis
Jim Rohn, it’s music to listen to him.  And how about a favorite study?

Paula Pant
In the book The Millionaire Next Door, the authors studied millionaires in the United States, and what they found among their many findings was that the overwhelming majority of US millionaires are self-made, by which they mean they’re first generation.  And something like at least half of them have never accepted even a single dollar as inheritance.

Pete Mockaitis
Fascinating.

Paula Pant
And so that very much disrupts some of the stereotypes that people have about millionaires: “Oh, they must’ve had it handed to them, it must’ve been passed down.”  What the research indicates is that that is quantifiably not the case.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent, thank you.  And how about a favorite book?

Paula Pant
The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey.  It’s an older one, but there are a couple of books that I re-read every year, and that is one of them.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool.  And how about a favorite tool?

Paula Pant
There’s a Google Chrome extension called F.lux, and what it does is if you’re working late at night it removes some of the blue wavelength lights from the lights that your screen is emitting, which means that you can work late at night without having the wavelengths of light from your laptop interfere with your melatonin production, and therefore interfere with your sleep cycles.

Pete Mockaitis
I am a F.lux lover myself.

Paula Pant
Oh, nice.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite habit?

Paula Pant
When I wake up in the morning, the first thing that I do is I chug a pint glass of water, and that is a fantastic habit.  And I realize it sounds very silly, but being hydrated, like sleep and exercise, is one of those things that actually makes you more productive and more focused during the work day.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly.  Well, I’ve gone deep into the studies on hydration before.  I guess it’s somewhat controversial, like, “Oh, just drink when you’re thirsty and you’ll be fine.”  But I think in practice there are so many little cues and signals and conveniences or inconveniences that cause us to actually take the effort to drink water versus not, that “Oh, just drink when you’re thirsty” is insufficient and often inadequate advice to get you to the optimal hydration and energize place.  And that’s what I believe right now.

Paula Pant
Oh, absolutely.  In fact, I believe that if you are thirsty, it’s far too late.  If you’re thirsty you’re already dehydrated.  And unfortunately a lot of people mistake thirst for hunger or for some other cue, so I think that contributes even more to dehydration.  

Pete Mockaitis
I’m with you.

Paula Pant
If you’re peeing yellow, you’re dehydrated.

Pete Mockaitis
Quote it!  You heard it here from Paula about your urine.

Paula Pant
Yeah, it’s true.  Piss clear.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.  And is there a particular nugget or piece that you share that seems to really resonate with your audience, that they retweet it, they take notes, they tell all their friends?

Paula Pant
It’s, “You can afford anything, but not everything.”  I’ve kind of become known for that idea in some ways, and I’ve noticed when I share that on social media, on Twitter, that’s the idea that tends to get retweeted, commented on, shared often.  Another one that I really like is, “The secret to career success is doing the thing that made you weird as a kid.”

Pete Mockaitis
That is a nice one.  Yeah, that resonates for me too. I was reading self-improvement books as a kid, and that was weird. And Paula, if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Paula Pant
You can listen to my podcast, which is the Afford Anything podcast, and I have an interview with you, Pete.  So I would direct people there first and foremost, so you can hear the tables get turned.  The podcast is called Afford Anything, and the blog is AffordAnything.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Paula Pant
Alright, my challenge for everyone listening is to piss clear.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, awesome.

Paula Pant
And if there’s challenge number 2, it’s listen to Episode 97 of the Afford Anything podcast, because that is the episode in which you talk about how to be awesome at your job.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you, much appreciated.  And Paula, thanks for taking this time.  This was a lot of fun, and eye-opening, and I have a feeling I’ve got some costs that are going to disappear from my life after this.  So thank you, and keep rocking out over there.

Paula Pant

Great, thank you so much!