183: Igniting Motivation through Appreciation with Dr. Paul White

Pete Mockaitis
Paul, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Paul White
My pleasure. I’m glad to be invited to join with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, certainly. Well, so now, I got a kick out of learning that your wife is an identical twin, and the two of you also have identical twin sons. When you’re at sort of a family gathering, reunion situation, is there a lot of mix-ups, or people just sort of shy away from saying names because they’re afraid of getting them wrong? Or how do you navigate that?

Paul White
Oh, no, people are used to it, and so they’re able to say, “Now, which one of you…?” Usually, for my wife, and her sister, it’s not as big issue as for my sons, so it’s just part of the culture. It’s interesting though that supposedly identical twins are random event that happens every 20,000 pregnancies, and so we’ve got two random events in a row. So, it’s fun.

Pete Mockaitis
Every 20,000, huh? Wow, I thought it was more commonly-occurring than that. That’s wild. And so 20,000 times 20,000, does that mean the odds of that happening two generations in a row, is that like mathematically 40 million or 400 million? Is that 20,000 squared?

Paul White
Let’s see four zeros, eight zeroes, so whatever that is, yeah, it’s a big one. Actually, twins are more frequent but identical twins are less.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I follow. I got you. Cool. So, now, anyway, we’re to talk about appreciation here. And so you’ve got a couple of books to this tune The 5 Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace and more recently The Vibrant Workplace. Tell me, in your psychological background in consulting, why did you choose appreciation of all topics to really go deep on? Like what makes this important to you?

Paul White
Well, it actually stems out on an earlier book by my co-author Dr. Chapman who wrote which is from personal relationships, and it’s an amazing book. It sold 11 million copies, it’s in 50 languages. And my wife and I were reading it and found it to be helpful. And then I consult with him in businesses and deal with relational issues within that context and was then with a situation where the father and son just were not connecting and sort of couldn’t hear each other positively, and saw the opportunity for this concept to then be translated into the workplace.

And so I pursued Dr. Chapman for over a year and then convinced him to let me work on an online assessment tool that we’ve developed to helping by appreciation inventory. And that became then the basis for the training that we do for workplaces and then The 5 Languages of Appreciation. So it started off from a personal need, and then I found that the need is huge out there because there’s just a whole bunch of people that really don’t feel valued or appreciated in the workplace, and an amazing research that demonstrates that.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes. I believe I bumped into a study from, I think, it was the Boston Consulting Group which surveyed, well, you know better than I do. They surveyed like 200,000 plus employees and that’s what they came across as like the number one thing.

Paul White
That’s the number one reason.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Paul White
The number one thing that people want in a workplace that helps them enjoy the work. A couple other points. Some research had showed 79% of the people who leave their job voluntarily cite a lack of appreciation as one of the primary reasons. Most managers and employers think people leave for more money. That’s usually not the case because leaving a job takes a lot of emotional energy and so it takes really the emotional driver to do that. And so a lot of people take off when they don’t feel valued.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, certainly. And so you go farther and you call appreciation a good investment in sort of like dollars or cents terms. What do you mean by that?

Paul White
Absolutely. We got research in both books The 5 Languages of Appreciation and The Vibrant Workplace that shows how when people, when staff employees and managers feel valued, good things happen for the business. Tardiness, coming back from break reduces, absenteeism goes down, staff turnover goes down, and we know that’s the number one non-productive cause for a business.

We also know that it reduces conflict between team members over stupid little stuff that roughly doesn’t matter, and increases productivity in some settings, not in all, but also it increases customer satisfaction rating. So a lot of areas that it indirectly affects how well a company functions in serving its customers.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so, I’m good and convinced that there’s a powerful why here when it comes to appreciation, doing it, we want more of it, and we should go ahead and make that happen. So can you share some of the how in terms of what are some of the most potent powerful applicable ways that we should go about appreciating one another at work?

Paul White
Yeah, and, in fact, let me start by how you don’t.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright.

Paul White
And because it’s a big issue, you know, 85% to 90% of all the companies and organizations in North America have some form of employee recognition program, and those are really sort of mushroomed over the last two decades. However, those don’t make people feel valued or appreciated. There’s a good purpose and reason for recognition and that is for performance but it only tends to hit the top 15% to 20% of workers who sort of meet, exceed goals, or your high performers, so that leaves 80% that really sort of never hear anything positive.

And, besides that, we’ve done a fair amount of research into employee recognition programs actually now are creating negative reactions from people because they don’t believe that they’re authentic. At least they’re sarcastic about it and they think, “Ah, that’s just going through the motions,” because they’re very organizational. Whereas appreciation is a very personal kind of thing. So we found that to communicate authentic appreciation there’s some core factors that need to happen and it’s not contained in employee recognition.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. What core factors got to happen?

Paul White
So, first, it needs to be communicated regularly, meaning not just once a year, the performance review, or maybe every six months, and in difference according to the setting and the type of relationship but it has to happen every once in a while, otherwise it just feels like, “This is random, and I don’t know if they really mean it.”

Secondly, it needs to be in the language and actions that are important to the recipient. Lots of times supervisors and managers try to communicate appreciation in the ways that are important to them whether that’s a compliment, or stopping to spend time with people, or giving them a gift. But if you don’t know what’s important to the other person, you’re likely to miss the mark so you’ve got to do it in the way that’s important to them.

Third, it needs to be about them and deliver it personally. The other mistake that a lot of leaders make is that they just sort of do this global “Way to go, team. We met our goals for the quarter,” or, “Good job, Bob,” whatever it is, and it’s very vague and non-specific. So it needs to be specific about them and given to them individually rather than as a group.

And then, lastly, it has to be viewed as authentic. If it’s not, people just sort of cuckoo it and don’t care. And so that whole authenticity piece is a piece that we spend a lot of time on when we train leaders and managers because you got to get past it, and sometimes it’s tough because there’s a lack of trust from historic sort of inauthentic recognition that’s going on.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Paul, I love it. Your research just shines through here in terms of, “Okay, here are four core distinctions that might be counterintuitive to some,” or that you just sort of brush right past them because they haven’t identified sort of the opposites. So I’d love it if you could spend maybe two or three minutes on each of these four principles, if we could.

So, on the first one, when it comes to being communicated regularly as opposed to just randomly here and there. So I guess I’m wondering, I’m hoping that there wouldn’t be like attention between communicating it regularly and inauthenticity because if it’s like, “Oh, this is my Thursday morning compliment time. I don’t know if I believe that it’s for real.” So how do you navigate that?

Paul White
And that is intention especially for engineers because they like to schedule things. And so it has to be really in the moment is helpful. Appreciation and any kind of praise is best when it’s done relevantly soon after the event. And so part of it is really developing an attitude of looking for opportunities to support and say or do something positive in response to actions that you see from your team members.

So it’s not so much a schedule as much it is a mindset. Although, to be able to do it in the language, we go to the next one, doing it in the language that’s important to the recipient, we have this inventory that identifies each person’s primary language, their secondary language that they value, and then their least valued one which is important because that’s your blind spot. That’s the one that doesn’t come natural to you.

So let’s say if that’s quality time, and you have team members that quality time is important to them, you may actually have to schedule that or put it on your calendar just as a reminder, not that you’re going to do it 8:15 on Tuesday, but having that mindset because otherwise you’re going to miss those people.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that’s helpful. So you’ve got that mindset there so you’re kind of ready to pounce or to strike to find something good and appreciate it there as it occurs, and so that makes it all the more real. So then let’s talk then about that second perspective when it comes to a language that resonates with them and hits their importance. Now you’ve done some research there in terms of which of the languages appear most frequently and least frequently in professional environments. What are the results of this research?

Paul White
Right. So we had over 100,000 people take our inventory, and looked at that. And the most frequent desired language of appreciation are words of affirmation. People like to hear words, compliments and so forth. Now, one of the things that we learned is that it’s not just the language but you need to know the specific actions that are okay with that person because one of the things that recognition programs do that creates problems is they call people up in front of a large group and give them attention and recognition that way.

We found that 30% to 40% of the general population don’t want to go up in front of a large group and, in fact, actively don’t want to. And if you have administrative assistants or other kinds of more sort of background people, the number is even higher. So it’s about doing it in the language and finding that out, then we use our inventory as well as the actions.

And so some people, you know, email is fine. Some people, just call them up to the side and say, “Hey, man, you did a great job on that presentation. You were really clear. You made your point and had action steps afterwards, and way to go.” And so you’ve got to figure that out. Otherwise, what we find is that you wind up trying to do the same thing for everybody and it misses the mark. Certainly, like shooting a shotgun and you just miss a whole bunch.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright. And so when it comes to these words of affirmation, it’s a runaway favorite it seems, I think those who don’t yet have the mindset of trying to do this appreciation, or might even feel uncomfortable, like, “That’s touchy feely. I don’t care about people that way.” How can they start kind of loosening up and going there when it does feel like some maybe unnatural or awkward first steps to begin articulating this stuff?

Paul White
Absolutely. And, in fact, we worked with computer geeks and engineers and other people that aren’t comfortable sort of going upfront and personally giving a compliment. So we start out just with a written email or a note. Basically, you want to think about, “What does this person do that I value that if they didn’t do them, their tasks, or whatever, would make my daily life tougher?”

And so we just identify, “What do you value? Communicate it. Give a specific example and write them a note.” That gives you time to sort of think about it, maybe even tweak a little bit and that’s a great way to start.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that is a powerful question. What do they do that I value? In other words, if they didn’t do it, I would suffer. I would have some negative consequences. And then I think when you phrase it that way it suddenly becomes very easy to say, “Oh, my gosh. Wow, there’s tons of things that if my collaborators weren’t doing I would be in a world of hurt real quick.”

Paul White
Absolutely, yeah. What I’ve learned, because we’ve been doing this eight or 10 years with groups that trying to sort of drum up appreciation for somebody that you don’t think you appreciate is tough. But if you think about value, “What do I value about them?” then appreciation flows from that. And in The Vibrant Workplace, my new book that is centered around 10 obstacles to creating a culture of appreciation, one of the things to deal with is it’s difficult to appreciate colleagues. What do you do with somebody that you really don’t like or they’re sort of negative and grumpy and all that kind of stuff?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now you brought it up. What do you do?

Paul White
Well, you look for something that you can value, and it may not be work-related. It could be, let’s say we even deal with low performers. They may not be really getting the job done as much as you’d like, but maybe they’re cheerful and fun and have a fun laugh, and you’d say, “You know, I really like it when I hear you laugh. It just sort of lights up the room.” And that’s a start.

Or it could be something outside of work, about, “I’m really impressed with how you’re trained for that half marathon and just the discipline you’re demonstrating with that,” or to a single mother, “I’m just super impressed about how committed you are to your kids and serving them and doing well with them.” It’s not work-related but you’re building a relationship and actually a sense of loyalty by calling out the things that you see that are value in them.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright. Perfect. And so then that third principle, you said it is specific and it’s about them, and it’s delivered personally. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

Paul White
Yeah, sometimes you think, “Doing, I don’t have say this.” Then I hear examples go back to me, it’s like there was a president that told his administrative assistant, “Hey, I want you to go tell Jake what a great job he did on his presentation.” Boy, dude, get out of your chair. Go talk to the person. So it’s that. And also think about soccer.

If you’re a soccer coach to little kids, you can’t wait to praise until they score a goal because that may not happen for several games but you’re looking for things that approximate what you want, and call attention to that. So it’s, “Hey, really, thanks for getting your report done and in on time to me. It helps me be able to get my report to my supervisor.” So you try to be really specific about behaviors that are helping move towards the goal.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Excellent. And then that fourth principle there.

Paul White
Yeah, the authenticity. It’s huge. And sometimes we have to think about, you know, and you have to understand that you don’t want to blow through it. There’s a lot of research that shows the positive effects of showing appreciation, but if you don’t value or appreciate somebody, don’t try to fake it because it will undermine the trust that is there.

And so sometimes you have to stop and think about it, and then do what you can to communicate it in an authentic way, and that partly has to do with eye contact and tone of voice. And so if you’re shy or nervous, that can come across as you don’t really mean it because anxiety is sort of covers that for people. So sometimes writing it down is better.

But I think the key thing here is that it’s not always words, right? Words is less than half of the employee’s primary language, so over half one of the other language is as important. And related to recognition, they use a lot of awards and gifts and stuff like that, we found that that’s less than 10% of the employee’s desired way of being shown appreciation. So I think companies are wasting a lot of money on things and stuff that really doesn’t get the job done as far as demonstrating that they value their employees.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well so, now, I’d love it if maybe you could just sort of spark some creative ideas for appreciation right here. So could you lay out for us, just rapid fire, the list of these five languages, and maybe two or three things that are broadly applicable that most employees can do for another colleague?

Paul White
Sure. So the first is words of affirmation, and sort of a sentence structure for giving an effective praise is use the person’s name. So, “Steve,” secondly make it specific, “thanks for getting here on time regularly, day in, day out.” And the third point is why it’s important either to you, the organization or your clients, “Steve, thanks for getting here on time regularly, that way I don’t have to worry about if we’ve got somebody here to meet and greet customers if they show up a little bit early.”

So be very specific, use their name. If you’re writing it, make sure you spell their name correctly because that doesn’t go well if you misspell it. So words are key, and just be specific. Quality time is the second language. And one of the obstacles that we talk about in The Vibrant Workplace is that people are busy. And so you think about time, it’s like, “I don’t have time for this.”

But, especially to managers and leaders, I say, “Just because a person’s language is quality time doesn’t mean they want time with you.” Sometimes they would like time with their manager to talk or listen and share. While other times they’re like, “No, they’re too intense. I don’t really want to be with them but I like hanging out with my friends, going out to lunch, going out after work and watching sports or something.”

So that’s where we really want to identify the specific actions so that you’re not checking in with somebody and trying to spend time with them when they don’t want time with you. So it’s risk-specific on who and how and where. And usually it doesn’t take much time. I had a CFO tell me, she said, “My language is quality time, but all I like is somebody coming by the office and check in to see how I’m doing. After five minutes I’m booting them because I’ve got too much to do.”

Third language, acts of service. It’s not rescuing somebody who is low performing but probably the easiest way to think about it is when you’re looking at a deadline, you’re trying to get stuff done, and you’re pushing for what could somebody do that would make your day or week better. It could be bringing in lunch so you could work through your lunch hour. It might be holding calls so that you can focus on the project and not have to worry about interruptions.

Sometimes it’s going to the supply room when they’re going and they say, “Hey, you need anything?” and you say, “Yeah, pick me up a pad of paper and some pencil,” or whatever. It’s usually very little stuff but that just helps them realize and feel like you’re considering them. For some people, words are not only sort of neutral, they’re negative. Some people, words are cheap, “Don’t tell me you care. Show me.” And if all you do is praise them but never help them out, they’re not real impressed with that.

Fourth language is tangible gifts, and it’s not bonuses, compensation or raises. It’s small things that show you’re getting to know your colleagues. And it could be bringing in their favorite Starbucks, it could be when you’re ordering pizza that you make sure you get the Hawaiian because you know they –like the Hawaiian. You’re in Chicago, maybe they’re a Big Ten football fan and so you’d have a free season magazine about that and say, “Hey, I slotted this. I think you might be interested in.”

It’s about getting to know them and letting them know that you thought about them outside of work. It’s not about the money. You’re not looking to get a flat screen TV for them. It’s just something that’s small and really it is about the thought at that point.

And then the last language is physical touch which a lot of people, when we talk about them it makes them nervous. We always say, “When I’m talking to HR managers we have a paramedic in the room that deal with their stress, you know, class suit.” But physical touch is just spontaneous celebration in the workplace. It happens. It differs regionally.

In the South they do side hugs, but pretty much around, except for maybe far northeast, you got high fives, you got a fist bump, you got congratulatory handshake. And it’s just celebrating when good things happen. And so it’s there, we sort of manage and entertain that, but it can be a lot of fun, too.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, certainly. Absolutely. And I’m thinking back to Dr. Paul Zak, the oxytocin researcher, who talked about the power of hugs, and we had him on the show. He was a blast. And he just said that was part of his natural scripts, was when someone extends a hand to him, he says, just, “I hug everybody.” And most of the time they’re like, “Well, okay.” And then just very rarely, if they looked freaked out, he’s like, “Okay. Well, I’ll shake your hand.”

And so, yeah, it can be done. It can be done professionally and no HR litigation issues need arise from that. So, very good. Well, so thanks for laying that out there. And so now, I want to make sure we covered maybe a bit more of the opposite for just a touch by contrast. You’ve got what you call the ABCs of a sick workplace. Can you lay out what is that and how can we overcome it?

Paul White
Yeah. Well, I was out speaking and training about appreciation. I would have people at breaks and afterwards come up and tell me how nasty the workplace was or what a jerk their boss was. So we’re now doing research on toxic workplaces and writing a book on that, and all our resources can be found at AppreciationAtWork.com.

And so toxic workplaces are really places which, first of all, typically – and I’m talking about toxic, deadly, really negative. It’s not just incompetent sort of sick kind of stuff, but it’s like hurtful. You’ve got a toxic leader, and the toxic leader doesn’t have to be at the top. They can be a supervisor, they could be a department director, a VP, but toxic leaders are people who really are all about themselves. They use people for their purposes, people just serve like physical resources. They take credit for things that they didn’t do. They’re sort of like Teflon. They’re able to get slide off of any mistakes.

Everything is about them and they will destroy you if you get in the way and take credit for things that should come to them. So toxic leaders you can’t trust them because it’s about them. And so you might be their right-hand person but if it’s to their benefit to get rid of you for their advancement, you’re out of there.

So toxic leaders. Secondly is a sick system, and a sick system is one that’s just not healthy with regards to communication, with decision-making, with holding people accountable for their decisions. If you think about government, university settings, medical settings, hospitals, long-term care facilities and public schools, they’re sort of a hallmark group of toxic workplaces because they have too many reporting relationships and too many sort of clientele that they’re trying to answer to, and it doesn’t work.

And then the third component we found were dysfunctional colleagues, and these are people who basically dysfunctional . . . it means problem, they have a problem with functioning. They don’t function according to the rules of the world, with reality, that you make choices and then there are consequences, versus they’re experts at blaming, making excuses and negotiating. And there are some things in life you can’t negotiate.

And so they’re also are really good at getting others to get in conflict. It’s sort of like, “Let’s see you and him fight,” and they’re off to the side and they’re skating and get away. It’s sort of like you’ve got a negative situation, you go to a meeting and you walk in, you say, “Man, this people are getting nailed,” and you walk out, you go, you’re fogged, you’re like, “What happened?” because they skated and somebody else got nailed for it, and you’re just like, “How did that happen?”

And so when you have those characteristics of a toxic leader, a sick system that doesn’t work well and then dysfunctional colleagues, you’re in a pretty deadly place.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And so, then, we talked about appreciation. What are some of the other maybe best moves you can make if you find yourself enmeshed in all that?

Paul White
Well, if you’re in a really negative toxic workplace, the number one thing you need to do is take care of yourself because if you don’t take care of yourself nobody else will and it will eat you up and chew you up and spit you out. And so you have to pay attention to your physical health. Are you sleeping okay? You do that, it tends to go away. People worry, they do away with eating well, they don’t exercise and they start to have physical problems, and also their supportive relationships go away. So you’ve got to take care of yourself because your leader is not going to. They’re using you for their benefit.

And, secondly, you need to find somebody, whether it’s in the organization or an outside sort of coach or friend or relative, that can give you honest, straight feedback about thinking straight, because you get fogged in these situations, and you’ve got to have somebody that you can bounce ideas off of and say, “Am I thinking straight about this? This seems unethical.” They say, “No, that’s not unethical. That’s illegal. They shouldn’t be doing it.”

And so you’ve got to have that as well as you’ve got to really, just as much as possible, try to find somebody that you can hang out with and keep positive while you may be looking for another place.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. Well, Paul, tell me, is there anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about a few of your favorite things?

Paul White
I think the key thing is in any of these situations, whether you’re just in a normal place and you want to try to make it better, or a really bad place, is you can make a difference. And it doesn’t matter what your position is in the work, in the organization, because we’ve seen receptionists, we’ve seen facility, people start to communicate positively with others and start to impact those around them.

So don’t feel like you’re powerless in the situation. You may be powerless to create, you know, change the whole organization, but being able to focus on those people you interact with day to day is key and start there.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, can you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Paul White
Yeah, sort of a lifelong quote I had since I was young is there’s sort of an ancient Middle Eastern saying, it says, “He who walks with the wise will become wise. But the companion of fools will suffer harm.” And so I’ve just tried to always get around people who are smarter than me, more successful than I am, and just hang out and learn and watch, and I think it’s a great way to sort of go through life and try to learn it from people who are smarter than you are.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite book?

Paul White
I love the book Integrity by Henry Cloud. In the first chapter is worth the cost of the book, where he just shows how leaders, when they don’t understand the relationship between tasks and people, chew people up and then you’ve got nothing to show for it. So it’s a really solid book for leaders and those that want to become leaders.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. And how about a favorite tool, something that helps you be awesome at your job?

Paul White
Well, when I think about it. This is good. You know I’m a Boomer. I’m just really old school. But I’m thankful for the internet. And if you’d lived before the internet, life and research was a lot tougher back then and took a lot longer. And right now the tools and the amount of information we have, if you can sort through it, is amazing and it’s cool. And for younger workers that’s sort of like, “Yeah, whatever.” But it’s sort of like, “Man, if you’ve ever lived without air conditioning you’d become really thankful,” so.

Pete Mockaitis
And thank you for turning off your air conditioner for our conversation amidst the heat. You’re a champion and it’s not lost on me. Thank you. And how about a favorite habit, a personal practice of yours?

Paul White
I find that it works really well to admit when you don’t know something. First of all, you don’t have to sort of post like you know anything. And, secondly, it engages other people that you aren’t trying to be a know-it-all and it allows them potentially to share some advice as they know it. And it also provides the opportunity to learn. So I just find that instead of trying to act like I know everything, you know, I got a Ph.D. and spoken across the world but, hey, I don’t know everything. And if I don’t, admit it and we can move on.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright. And how about a favorite resonant nugget, a piece that you share in your speaking or writing that seems to really connect and get people nodding their heads and resonating?

Paul White
Yeah, the key in any kind of relationship, and that includes work relationships, is you’ve got to focus on yourself. If you get focused on what your supervisor is not doing, what your colleagues do that bug you, what the administration or the management aren’t doing, you’re just going to waste a lot of time and energy focused on stuff that doesn’t get you anywhere.

So you may have to focus on, “Okay, how am I going to respond to this?” or, alternatively, focus on skills that you can develop to help make things go better. So don’t worry about other people, what they’re doing, what they’re not doing, focus on yourself and you’re going to be moving ahead and leaving them behind.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Paul White
Yeah, our website AppreciationAtWork.com, and if they want to write me an email or get to me, just use the admin email, but AppreciationAtWork.com or DrPaulWhite.com is another one as well. And lots of information and free stuff, videos and articles and podcasts as well. So let’s point people that way.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if you have a final call to action or challenge for those seeking to be awesome at their jobs, what would it be?

Paul White
It would be the two parts of don’t engage in the negative stuff that’s going on. There’s sarcasm, there’s complaining, grumbling, gossiping, backbiting, just don’t go there. And if you’re with a group and they’re going there, just excuse yourself, go away. And then look for something positive that you can say or do towards somebody. It doesn’t have to be about them, it could be, “Wow, what a gorgeous day,” or, “Did you see that sunset last night?” Or, “How about The Bears?” or whatever is going. It’s refreshing to hear somebody that’s thankful and grateful, and it really sort of douses that fire and negativity and helps things go better.

Pete Mockaitis
Fabulous. Well, Paul, this has been so enriching. Thank you for sharing. I appreciate you and I hope that you receive and give much appreciation in the months to come here.

Paul White
Yes, Pete, thanks for the opportunity. I do value it.