011: Making Messages Memorable with Dr. Carmen Simon

Pete Mockaitis:

Carmen, thanks so much for appearing here on The How to be Awesome at your Job Podcast.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Thank you so much for inviting me.

Pete Mockaitis:

Well, you’ve got a pretty impressive set of credentials, multiple doctorates and that’s fantastic.  I’d like to hear a little bit of the story associated with how you came to be interested in these things in the first place.  I understand that your father had an influence.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yeah, for sure. We often follow on our parent’s paths and my dad is a psychologist and I had been intrigued by the human psyche especially as you graduate from college and you get to work for the corporate world and you’re exposed to a lot of things that work and many things that do not.  And I’m still asking this question, how is it that some people are so good at following up on the what they promised to do and why is it that some people are not?  I’m sure that in your job right now, you’re meeting a lot of people say, “Hey, I’m going to sent you that file tomorrow,” even for me, I was going to send you my bio this morning.  Did I do it?  No, I didn’t.

And some people follow through and some people do not.  And I realized that when people do follow through, great things can happen.  We get hired, we get promoted, we get married, ha ha.  And when people don’t follow through in our favor, then many things stagnate.  Our sale cycles, for instance, if you work in that field, get to be longer; relationships are not so great.  People don’t follow through on their promises and there are negative consequences for that.  As a result of that, then I started asking why is it that people don’t follow through?  Because surely, not everybody has bad intentions.

When somebody says, “Hey, I’ll call you tomorrow” or “I’ll send you that email,” I’m sure that for most part, people are well-intended.  And that’s when I realized that in order for people to act in our favor and to follow through on their promises, we have to be on their minds long enough for action to happen.  So that’s when I took it a step further and discovered that in all of our decision making, and I use a strong word all, all of our decision making is based on what we remember, not on what we forget and that’s when I started researching a lot more this concept of how does memory influence decision making.

Pete Mockaitis:

Well, I’m very intrigued.  So what do we know, how does memory influence decision making?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

We have started knowing a lot more in the past few decades as you know with increased and improved brain imaging technologies.  We have been able to peek underneath the human skull and now know a little bit more of what does what in the brain.  Do we know everything in the brain?  Definitely not.  It will be many more decades before we can decode the entire brain but we have learned a lot more.  For instance, we used to know only 30 regions in the brain and now we know more than 300. We look at the brain science to inform how is it that we can stay on other people’s minds long enough for them to make a decision in our favor.

And when I say brain science, I mean, the intersection of two fields.  One is neuroscience which studies the structure and function of the brain and the other field is cognitive psychology which studies mental functions like attention and memory, decision-making, problem solving, creativity.  And when you merge these two fields together these days, you have a very beautiful combination because now we know more about how attention happens in the brain, how memories are formed.  We may just–even to the point where we can see the birth of a memory using brain image, yeah, I know, it’s incredible, isn’t it?

Pete Mockaitis:

The birth of the memory?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis:

It’s like a novel title.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

That’s true.  That could–that could be your next book, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis:

Well, there’s so much I want to know here. So I mean, we could probably talk about the mechanisms by which the brain operates at length and have some fun with it, but I might have maybe shift gears a little bit more towards the application sides of things with–so with Rexi Media, did I say that right?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis:

With Rexi Media, you talk about having a flashlight and a magnet, and the flashlight calls attention to what’s important in a message and the magnet helps kind of make it its stick, so, what’s going on in the brain and how can we work with that ultimately to have I guess, a really bright flashlight and a really strong magnet?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

So I’m glad that you mentioned those metaphors because imagine this, let’s just say that, you want to–you’re about to get engaged as you are sharing with me before, the–this call, and you wanted to obviously–initially when you started dating your fiancée, you wanted to stay on her mind long enough for her to say yes to you and no one else.  Let’s just say that she—there  was a lot of competition.

Pete Mockaitis:

Well, certainly.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yeah, exactly.  So–and then in business, it’s not different.  We want to stay on people’s minds and long enough for them to say, “Hey, we want to hire you or we want to promote you or we want to consider you one of the greatest people to do business with.”  And in order for us to do that, first, we have to be on their mind, so that’s where memory or that magnet has to happen, you have to say or do something that sticks.

Quite often people forget to act in our favor just because they didn’t pay attention to begin with, so that’s where that flashlight metaphor comes in, in order for people to remember you, they have to pay attention to you in the first place. And the reason that memory is important and as a result attention is important is because both of them lead then to decision-making.  It would be a shame for somebody to pay attention to you and remember you but not say yes, just imagine like your fiancée will like said, “Oh, yeah, I still remember you and yeah, I could have liked you but the answer is no.”

Pete Mockaitis:

Oh, that is sad.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Oh, I know that will be kind of sad.  So actually, can you remember a time when you learned something, you still remember it but you did not do anything with it?

Pete Mockaitis:

Sure.  Well, I guess, that’s were kind of shameful things, like, “Oh, I should have done something with that.”  I’m looking over my bookshelf because I imagine shortly there are some tidbits here.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis:

I think–I think–some of them are about, sort of, discipline, maybe in like the exercise world, it’s like, “Oh, I’ve learned some great things but exercise, I’m not doing it.”

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Oh, so you’re right.  Yeah.  How many personal training sessions did you attend or the people attend?  And then they say, “Oh, I’m just going to continue on with those routines,” and they don’t really stick.  I remember attending Tony Robbins’ workshop a lot.

Pete Mockaitis:

Oh, I did it.  I unleashed the power within and walked on fiery coals.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

You did?

Pete Mockaitis:

I sure did.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yeah.  And if you remember as a result of that experience, were you given like a binder with hundreds of pages of all such a beautiful things to follow up on?

Pete Mockaitis:

Oh, I sure was.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

How many of those did you apply?

Pete Mockaitis:

Well, I remember, he challenged us to be vegan for a month and that was brutal for me.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yes.  Well, and I–and I like that you’re mentioning this and here’s what we know from brain science in terms of decision-making and acting in general because what is decision-making but a choice of an action.  So how does the brain choosewhat to do next?  And what we know so far is that there are three paths towards action or towards decision-making, we decide first of all based on reflexes, you know, we decided on a Pavlovian kind of way almost in the sense of there are some actions that we take that are prewired and the memories given so to speak, so for instance, it doesn’t take a lot of training to realize that you shouldn’t touch a hot surface with your hand because from an evolutionary perspective, if we protect our skin we improve our longevity.

And we also react reflexively and we know what to do to sweet tastes, we react reflexively to odors, we react to body temperature, we react to altruism and beauty, and I may say possible not to react to flowers for instance or youthfulness or obviously sex.  So there are some things and memories that are already part of our inventory that we’re born with, so that’s one path towards what to do next, we already know.  The second path is acting based on or making decisions based on habits, and when you say that it took a long time to adjust to a vegan lifestyle that’s because it was probably interfering with other habits that you had.

Pete Mockaitis:

Yes.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

And like reflexes habits are conscious at first but with enough exposure and repetition they become subconscious.  And the reason that it’s so easy to decide what to do next based on habit is because they don’t require so much cognitive effort, they’re just a given.  It’s a lot easier probably for you to reach for the chicken than to reach for the cucumbers.

Pete Mockaitis:

That’s true.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

And a third way of deciding and choosing your next action is based on goals, and like reflexes or habits, goals are requiring a lot more cognitive effort, it is possible for humans to change their minds in light of new information but that means we have enough willpower to do so.  So at the end of a very busy day for me, let’s just say that we had a lot of work to do or even for you going back to the vegan dilemma if you get home at 5:00 and you open the refrigerator what are you more likely to reach for, the chocolate or the broccoli?  So…

Pete Mockaitis:

Well, if there were meat, it would be easy, but–so I’m with you.  It’s like, during an exhaustedkind of challenging time.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yeah, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis:

You want to be comforted.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

You want to be comforted and also you don’t have enough cognitive power–cognitive power left enough willpower in order to change your actions in front of new information.  So even though you had just attended the workshop and let’s say, you were really believing in this fact that a vegan lifestyle might help you out, you see that chicken and you just look, so you’d be eating it for years and years and you’re thinking, just a small bite, it’s not going to hurt.

Pete Mockaitis:

Okay.  I hear you.  So I’ve got three layers here and they take progressively more cognitive effort or power…

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yes.

Pete Mockaitis:

…that goal is the most habit is the second and then our natural reflex is the least.  So I kind of understand the three paths, so then if we’re trying to make some change stick or to get a message received well, how do we work with that?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Exactly.  So if you were talking about this podcast being presented in the realm of a better day at work or influencing others in the positive way or just doing things more efficiently, you have to step back and ask, is this new information that I’m proclaiming, whether it’s a new content or a new skill going to survive if it’s not linked tosome existing reflexes or habits but it’s only linked to goals. Because a mistake that people make especially in business content all the time is they try to appeal so much to our goal-oriented behavior at the detriment of habits and reflexes.  And it’s very difficult because it’s not immediately sustainable to engage in something completely new unless you at first. at least, link it to something that’s old and habitual.

Pete Mockaitis:

So could you give me an example?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yes.  For instance, let’s just say that–let’s think of a–of a recent exam–few recent examples that are on people’s minds, let’s think of the Super Bowl commercials.  Have you–have you seen the–you may have watched the Super Bowl and some of the commercials and the people always tune into because so much money goes into the production of those and you’re thinking, “Gosh, are they–they’re fun to look at but are they effective?”

Pete Mockaitis:

I remember the marmot, I remember the Dorito and the–and the child in the womb, and sothere are couple I recall, yes.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Oh, that’s good.  So see, that’s a huge compliment that you just paid to the producers, because imagine if we’re talking about attention memory and decision-making being as the foundation of success, business success these days which is what I proclaim, then those adds achieved all three, they got your attention in the moment because how many stimuli compete for our attention during the Super Bowl party or a Super Bowl event?  Lots.

Pete Mockaitis:

Oh, yeah.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

So just because people paid $30,000,000 for however many seconds of air time does not guarantee attention.  So somehow they got your attention, you still remember it the weeks and weeks later.  And if given to see that’s where they will have to track you down a little bit more and see if in front of that aisle, would you reach for the Doritos or their competitors?  That would be the decision-making piece.  But to answer the question that you said earlier, so how is it that we can hook some new information into habits which is one of the easiest ways to implement change?  I remember one of the commercials being the Colgate one, do you remember their very humanitarian message in terms of don’t let the water run when you’re brushing your teeth.

Pete Mockaitis:

I don’t remember that.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

The reason I may remember it a little bit more is because I’m so super guilty of that.  I brush my teeth and there it is the water running in the background.  So obviously it’s a habit that they would want many people, me included to change.  And the reason why they will find it easier to do that is because at the point B–because they presented that information, let’s just say at point A during the Super Bowl, and people are supposed to act on that information at point B which is later on, two minutes later, ten minutes later, hours or even days later, hopefully not days because you have brushed your teeth that night.  And the reason some product or some services or some ideas have a better chance of staying in our minds and influencing our actions a lot more than others is because they’re automatically hooked in our behaviors, like brushing your teeth is already a behavior that you have.

Pete Mockaitis:

Yes.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

So already there are triggers that survive later on in our environment that will act as cues to prompt the memory to come to mind, so that night when the–when I turn the water on, that commercial immediately came into my mind.  So see, they were–they’re already hooking into existing habits that I have.  It would be a lot harder for an ad to simply say, “Hey, by the way, save water,” and that’s it, whereas when they say, “Save water when you brush your teeth,” you see how that hooks into a habit that you already have and it’s a lot easier if you will then work on that connection, a new message plus the old habit, it’s a lot easier to change the behavior that way than just simply starting anew and starting from scratch.

Pete Mockaitis:

Oh, that’s great.  That’s so great.  So hooking into a habit, and so I think brushing teeth is a great one because we do that hopefully.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yes.

Pete Mockaitis:

At least once or twice a day. So I think in kind of workplaces or business environments, how do you envision their being, sort of,the key habitual times or moments like right when you open up the computer at the start of the day or what are some other places or opportunities to put some hooks?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yeah.  So imagine, I was just working with the company to create a presentation on their product, and what impressed me about their product is that it wasn’t the piece of software that just simply said, “Hey, here is the new software,” who needs a new software application these days?  We have so many of them already.  But what they did well about theirs that, it integrated immediately and seamlessly with sale–Sales Force.  And because so many business people are already–especially in their field are already operating on Sales Force then they’re hooking something habitual to something that’s new.

So for instance in terms of sales–in terms of software development you wouldn’t start necessarily from scratch, you will look at opportunities to be where people are already.  So expanding that to other tasks that you would do every day and you’d like others to engage in, then the question you have to ask is, where are people looking already?  So as you open up your computer, what is it that they see?  For instance, sometimes, we teach brain science for presentations and we realize that PowerPoint is a ubiqutous tool for developing presentations and many of the principles that I share in those workshops would not live unless I gave people a PowerPoint file which then became a template which then had some of those triggers just like Colgate.  So at the time that account at point B, you’re being reminded of what you’re supposed to do as opposed to retrieving memories on your own.  I think it’s one of the hardest things to start retrieving memories on your own especially when the reward is not so immediate or so great.

Pete Mockaitis:

And so could you give us maybe some quick examples of these types of things tend to be rewarding to these types of audiences broadly generally in your experience?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

For instance, the biggest change or the biggest difference that I am noticing is between technology-oriented audiences such as IT versus marketing, like there’s an immediate battle when you may display a slide and has a beautiful pictures and a few keywords versus something that has a complex chart and a lot of data, and what I remind both audiences equally is that neither one extreme is satisfying to the brain.  You can–simplifying complexity is a myth where memory’s concerned.

In order for memory to be formed, you need more memory traces not the less of them, so therefore simplifying your content is not the solution, it’s a shame that people abuse complexity too much, so you just need to know how to control it, but I’ll give you an example of simple content is very easy to digest in the moment by an audience, so let’s just say if you’re a marketing individual and you explain to other people how marketing techniques that could take place or whatever your marketing plan might be for the quarter, that may be fairly easy to digest in the moment and thebrain willenjoy that ease of messaging and the simplicity of it because the brain is not like a computer, using science by the way, we debunked a lot of myths and this is one of them.  The brain is not like a computer, the brain does one thing and one thing only which is, help you fight to survive another day. And in that fight, it consumes a lot of energy and if it finds an occasion to conserve energy it will take it, which is why people tend to fall asleep in presentations.

Pete Mockaitis:

Oh.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

So a simple message is very easily accepted by the brain just because it helps the brain conserve energy, but a simple message does not guarantee memory.  So we have to be very cautious because simplicity will feel great in the moment but one,it will become boring, very, very quickly because there’s only for that long that you can look at slide after slide that is almost like a picture album, here is another photo from a stock photography database and here a few more keywords.  And that’s a–that does not sustain engagement for too long.

And two, in order for the brain to accept and appreciate simplicity, it has to know the complexity from which it has come.  In other words if we just look simply at one picture or one keyword, we would not fully appreciate its sophisticated simplicity almost unless we know some background details, this is why neither one of those two extremes, we were talking about IT and marketing, are good for the brain and for memory, a balance–a good balance between the two is what works.

Pete Mockaitis:

I love what you said about–we don’t appreciate simplicity unless you see the complexity of where it came from, and I think about that when it comes, you say mission statements. Like if you were on the outside and you read something it’s like “ okay, whatever, that’s nice”but sometimes if you’re on the inside and you’ve agonized over which words are going to go there and which words are not going to go there and why we used the word ‘equipped’ instead of ‘skilled’.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yes.

Pete Mockaitis:

Then it means a great deal to those on the inside.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yeah, that’s beautifully put and if you get the chance, check out the mission statements that–Burton, you know, the skiing equipment company, I think that’s since then they’ve evolved into even more outdoors kind of equipment, but you know Burton, right?

Pete Mockaitis:

I’ve heard of Burton.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

And if you–if you read one of their older mission statement passages, they’re just such a good combination between exactly what you’re talking about something abstract but also something concrete and very visual that appeals to our senses, so they’re not just saying, “Hey, we want to great–create great equipment for all of your outdoor needs,” they said, “well, in order for us to create this equipment we had to sleep on the floors in a crammed hotel rooms and then we had to try and try again and many times we didn’t succeed.”

“We had to invent and re-invent, we had to put ourselves, in all sort of dire circumstances,” so you can feel all of their journeys and things that they had to reach in order for them to even be able to deliver to us that mission statement.  So it’s not just three liners, it’s a–it’s a whole paragraph in which they explain how all these things came to be.  And because of its complexity and the inclusion of some of these concrete elements, like “I’ll never forget sleeping on floors in crammed hotel rooms”which–it’s a huge compliment to them, how many mission statements from companies do you really remember?

Pete Mockaitis:

Right.  Yeah.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

But I still remember that one because here’s another mythsthat we debunked with science when it comes to memory and influencing other people’s memory, people believe that pictures are superior to text and that simply not true.  It is possible for us to remember words but what’s happening is especially in business content, so many people use so many abstract words that those are easily forgotten whereas, if you use words that build a mental picture in someone’s mind, you don’t always have to have physical pictures or PowerPoint slides, like for example if I said to you, imagine what you would look like right now if you had a third eye in the middle of your forehead, I wouldn’t have to show you a PowerPoint slide for this, you could just picture it.

Pete Mockaitis:

Right.  I’d say I look pretty good.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yeah.  Hey, once beauty’s a given, you can’t mess with that too much.

Pete Mockaitis:

Well, wow, this is so much good stuff I would–we might have to have a follow-up episode of the months to come if you’re open to that because boy…

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Sure.

Pete Mockaitis:

I could really just dig into so much of this.  So it was a balance between simplicity and complexity, having your words paint a picture, being able to show off as the complexity from which the simplicity came in order for you to connect – what are some other kind of just top drivers or levers that we should mention in the same breath?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Well, let’s just refer to some angles, if we’re looking at the foundation for this entire conversation as being attention, memory, and decision-making are the pillars of business success, so let’s just start with that and nothing touches that foundation.  From then on, then the question that we can ask is, what is something that influences that attention, what is something that makes things stick in terms of memory, and I keep insisting on this phrase, influencing other people’s memory, not your own, and some–what are some decision drivers, so we can ask more zoomed in questions around those three pillars.  Yeah, go ahead.

Pete Mockaitis:

Well, so I think we’ve heard a bit about attention and memory, is there anything we should zoom in on decision-making?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yes.  For decision-making we are talking about those three ways of reaching decisions which are the reflexes, the habits and the goals.  And by the way, as scientists, we get this question all the time which is, how do you know if somebody acts on habits versus goals?  And the way we can tell that is if you are giving the brain a reward which is something that it looks for all day every day, the brain is constantly insearch of rewards and avoiding punishment, and if you give to the brain something that defines rewarding and you get it habituated for a while to that–to that item.

Let’s just say Doritos, and then you devalue that reward, so you can do one of the two things, either I give you Doritos and in return I ask you to press the lever each time that you wanted, and then after a while, I’ll say, “Okay, you can have Doritos–as many Doritos as you–as you want and you don’t even have to do anything,” so all of a sudden it’s up to your own devices, you can–you can eat as much as you want until you get sick or as you press to that lever and you get this reward that you like, the Doritos, I put I’m being very mean and I put some–something nasty in them and I make them taste really bad and you get extremely sick to the point where you would not want to touch Doritos ever again your entire life.

Pete Mockaitis:

Okay.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

So–and then after a while, I–you back into the lab for another experiment and I observe, do you still want the Doritos or not, and so that means that are you going–the question that I’m literally asking is, will you still be acting based on habit because you ate so much and you just kind of got used to them, got used to them, got used to them, or will you act based on the goal knowing that and remembering that from the past, you got sick and therefore, you should make a different decision even though those habits are still kind of in your mind.

And what we’re observing is this, the more exposure you have to those sessions in which you are getting used to the food, you’re getting used to the food, getting used to the food, then the harder it will be later on to act based on goals versus habits, so if I catch you early and during those sessions, you weren’t exposed that much then it is possible for you to change behavior.  If I don’t catch you early and the habit is so engrained, it is very, very, very hard to change habits in light of new information.

Pete Mockaitis:

And is there a rule of thumb or a magic number in terms of number of repetitions or days in which things really settle in?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Some counts that we have, I know you may have heard the 21 days of formation of the habit.

Pete Mockaitis:

Yeah.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Not the whole lot of scientific merit to that but it has been popularized.  The studies that we have available that were done on rodents and humans, for humans it took about–you have to have about six times more the exposure to stimulus in order to start forming a habit versus not, so.

Pete Mockaitis:

So it’s more than rodent?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

No, not the rodent but a person who is not exposed to the same stimulus.  So let’s just say that you and I are eating Doritos, I would have to have six more times the repetitions and the sessions, you know, if you get used to that kind of food and then you do in order for me to have a more solid habit.

Pete Mockaitis:

Wait.  So, you’re comparing it yourself to me and the key difference between us is what in the scenario?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Is the fact that one eats Doritos habitually and one does not.

Pete Mockaitis:

Okay.  Versus I just have them from time to time?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yeah, exactly.  Exactly.  So if I start training you and I expose you to more of those–more of that stimulus and I’m starting to build a habit, build a habit, build a habit, and once that threshold has passed,I’m assuming that is different from different stimuli, the only reason I’m only referring to food is because from an experimental perspective those had been the only experiments that I know and I can rely on when I’m–when I’m sharing these numbers, but I’m sure that in the future the people will start replicating some of these experiments with different stimuli and see what is really the threshold beyond which it’s very, very difficult to change your habits.  And so far, the only references we have are–in terms of food experiments, imagine the menu of these experiments are not easy to carry through because whenever you are involving an MRI machine or FMRI technology, those things are not cheap to carry which is a good point of hear in this program to remind people to be cautious about some of these neuroscientific studies so to speak or results that we tend to share with others because you’ll have to look at how many people took part of the experiments, how was the experiment carried –  many of these neuroscientific studies are done just with 10 or 15 people because it’s not that cheap to put a person in person’s brain in the MRI machine and start running these studies and you also have to have randomized–you know,in a true study you would have a randomized setup and you would have to have a fairly good number of people who are part of it, not just five.

Pete Mockaitis:

Certainly.  I’m skeptical when I see a tiny ‘n’ in a study.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yes, yes.

Pete Mockaitis:

So, right with you. So your book Impossible to Ignore, it releases today, the same day this episode airs, so yeah, congratulations in advance, as we’re recording.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis:

The book has some nice promises in terms of no more redundant meetings, rambling emails or anemic presentations – that sounds quite exciting, It sounds like we covered a few of these topics that are associated with kind of eliminating some of these frustrations and drudgeries, what some other key gems in there, within the book that help contribute to preventing these frustrations from occurring?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

The main point of the book is to shift our thinking in terms of how we look to stay on people’s mind so that they can decide in our favor.  We used to look at memory as something that includes the past when you say, what do you remember about XYZ, you would immediately think, well, you’re recollecting the past but I’m advocating something different in the book which is, what if memory has evolved not to help us keep track of the past but rather to help us keep track of the future.

Pete Mockaitis:

Okay.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

So retrospective memory which is remembering the past is useful, but it’s prospective memory which is remembering to act on a future intention that keeps that same business.  And this ties up very nicely the conversation from the beginning of the episode when we are saying imagine the world where people indeed act on what they promise they will act on because that’s a frustration I started with. It’s just so satisfying to me when somebody says, I will do something, and then they follow through, and the reason that they don’t follow through quite often is because of that prospective memory –  they simply forget to act on future intentions.

So the book has guidelines in terms of what is it that you’re sharing at point A when you meet with somebody, when you have a conversation much we’re having today or when you have a formal presentation or be may share of blogor create a marketing campaign, that’s point A.  And then what is it that you expect people to do to remember and do with point B which would be minutes later, weeks, even sometimes few years later, how can you stay on other people’s minds and what happens at point B that they need in order to act on–in your favor.

And there are three phases that the book will outline for point B which is what is it that happens in your life in the future, well, you’ll notice some cues so something will trigger a memory if we’re lucky.  So for instance, running the water as we’re brushing the teeth would trigger a cue, you’re noticing the cue and you’re searching your memory, what was I supposed to do, what was I supposed to do, and then you execute on the intention if the reward is strong enough.  So those three phases if we know how to account for them at point B, then action is more likely.

Pete Mockaitis:

Perfect.  Thank you.  Well, now, I want to shift gears a bit into the fast phase section, throw some rapid fire questions your wayjust kind of hear and the sort of things that you found useful.  Could you start us off by sharing with us a favorite quote, something that you think about that inspires you.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Oh, a favorite quote.  Let’s think about knowledge since this podcast is about putting knowledge in other people’s minds.  I remember reading a while back that obviously knowledge is power but what I remember even more is I always appreciate people who modify quotes to something that has a deeper meaning and somebody else came and said, on top of that, “It’s not the knowledge that’s power, it’s the application of knowledge that’s power,” and if we connect that to the purpose of the book, it’s not a memory is power, it’s the application of what you remember, that is power.

Pete Mockaitis:

That’s great.  And could you share–you’ve seen many studies in your day and done some, read many, are there any kind of particular experiments that you found yourself referencing or again or–and again or that you really admire?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Whoa.  I have just finished a research study of my own just recently I picked up the top 50 SlideShares of last year, and I asked this question – what did those SlideShares have in common in order for us to like them, share, download, embed, or comment on them?  Because if you think about it, if we do any of those five outcomes that I just said, that means that’s SlideShare creator had the skill to stay on our minds long enough for us to act on them.  And it was in that studythat I identify these 15 variables that impact other people’s memories or not to concern about how to improve our own memory but how to stay on other people’s minds.

And I’ve been studying the reflection of those 15 memory variables in those top 50 SlideShares, and I would say that the best result of that study that I just finished is this – out of the SlideShares that I studied which didn’t have more than fiftyslides, I want to say five to ten percent of those slides contained one memory metric that I’m very fond of which is surprise, the element of surprise.  And the idea is that in order for you to impact someone and get them to click ‘Like’ or get them to comment, you don’t have to create something so intense at every single moment.  It’s something that’s using very small potions that can still be impactful.  So look at an element of surprise for instance as caviar not marmalade.

Pete Mockaitis:

I actually looking forward to reading that in its depth, is that going to be published somewhere?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yeah.  I only published just briefly just these result that I’m sharing with you but I do plan to detail  a little bit more because I think it’s such good news for any of us content creators to know that we don’t have to try so darn hard at every single unforgiving minute in a conversation sequence or presentation sequence –  just making something intense that you’re using that element in good proportions is a lot better, it’s giving us a lot better result than trying too hard every single a–every single instance.

Pete Mockaitis:

Well, now, I’ve got that Colbie Caillat song in my head that you don’t have to try, try, try, try.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis:

That is repetition, so that’s how I remember it, she kept–she kept repeating herself so many times.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Oh, that’s so good.  I’m glad you mentioned that because obviously when we talk about the 15 memory metrics  that we can use to influence to the people’s memory, repetition is definitely the mother of memory and so is emotion, so those are two more of the 15.  But repetition is a tricky thing because it’s a fine line that we’re walking between asking or repeating a message for somebody and sounding remedial.

Pete Mockaitis:

Yes,

Dr. Carmen Simon:

And what I’m noticing in business content, especially in business presentations is that, people are afraid to repeat things because the ego gets in the way and because they are afraid of coming across as remedial.  What do you think about that?

Pete Mockaitis:

Oh.  I think that I have experienced exactly that, I’ve been afraid to come across as remedial, but I think I’m just–I think I just–what I have to say so important, I guess, I’m fooling myself is like–I think it’s very important and I think it’s important that would be remembered and thusly, I am not going to be shy about doing a little previewing and recapping along the way.  So I do see some–it kind of looks in the audience like, oh, okay, yeah, we heard you, but I just don’t think there’s any other way around it that I’m aware of.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yeah.  So, repetition I think is a function of exactly what you just said is a function of the chemistry that you have with your content because if there’s something that you truly and fully believe in, you’ll find it a lot easier to stand up straight in front of an audience visible or not, and say the same message as many times as it takes to stay on their minds.

Pete Mockaitis:

Great.  And could you also share with us a favorite book?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Oh, favorite book as of–as of late?  I’m going to say, Thinking Fast and Slow, have you seen, read, heard of it?

Pete Mockaitis:

Is this Daniel Kahneman?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

That’s the one and I’ll tell you the reputation that that book has, it’s considered currently the greatest book that isn’t read.

Pete Mockaitis:

Okay.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

I don’t know if you had to chance to read it or may have seen it, it’s a very dense, it’s packed with science based information which is one of the reasons that I read it but I can see how people would get drawn to the message and to that simplicity because he essentially speaking about the brain operating on these two systems, if we were to relate to his two systems, the three decision paths we said earlier, remember the reflexes, habits, and goals, the reflexes and habits would link to his system one, which is a system that is fast and automatic and wants a immediate gratification and it craves that chocolate, and system two would be the more goal-oriented system, it is the one that we can relate to because it’s the seats of the selfso to speak.

So, yeah, when we have that kind of simplification, it’s easy to get drawn to book but then when you have to read the details behind it then some people may try away but if you do make–if you have the will power which is what we’re talking earlier, it’s a–it’s a great reward.

Pete Mockaitis:

And can you share with us a favorite website?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Oh, favorite website.  I like wired.com.

Pete Mockaitis:

Yes, that’s a good one.  And favorite habit or since we’re talking about sort of habits and goals, what are some habits that you’ve successfully installed that had been pretty transformational in your life?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

A habit that serves me well is a–is a psychologist, it’s a–it’s a habit that I advocate for other people also, in psychology we call it a change of states.  So for instance, I find it fairly difficult sometimes to stay focused for prolonged periods of time on a task, let’s just say about writing a book or writing a blog or just something that after a while becomes repetitive since we’re talking about repetition, and one of the ways to counteract that is to change the place where you’re sitting.

So if I’m working at a desk and having a certain view for about an hour then I may change to a different desk that’s simply facing a wall and it’s providing a different context all together.  And after that, it becomes habitual then, or the brain habituates way too much that I may choose for another hour to work at a coffee shop and that’s another change of states.  And after that, I can rotate through the similar work spaces and that variety gives me enough to sustain the energy.

Pete Mockaitis:

I do that too.  Good trick.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Oh, you do? What do you switch between?

Pete Mockaitis:

Well, I switch between, is it my desk in the home office, is it my desk in the bedroom, is it out in a coffee shop, is it in sort of different  – standing or sitting or lying down.I think I like it all.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

I love that–I love that so much.  I think that my next line of research is going to be on this new emerging field that’s called a neuroenergy.

Pete Mockaitis:

Oh.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

And I’m intrigued by this angle of sustaining focus by looking at how much cognitive energy do we have left because if we are starting from the premise that the brain is constantly looking to conserve energy and we can only produce that much through the–through the day, how we maximize it?

Pete Mockaitis:

I will read that, thank you.  What would be a favorite way to find you, folks want to get in touch to want to learn more, would you prefer a website or Twitter or email?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Any of those three will work or a combination, our website like you said it is Reximedia.com and for Twitter, I am on @areyoumemorable, and my email address is Csimon@reximedia.com.

Pete Mockaitis:

Perfect.  Thank you.  And do you have a parting thought, a favorite challenge or call to action you’d like to leave us with?

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Yes.  I love challenges, and here’s my challenge for any listener.  As you deliver a message whether it’s an informal conversation or a formal presentation, after you have delivered that message, do you have the courage, in two days, to call members from your audience and ask these two questions, what do you remember from what I said and what are you willing to do with it?  And see if you’re satisfied with the answers that you get back.

Pete Mockaitis:

Oh, that does take courage, and I love it.  Carmen, thank you so much.  It has been such a treat to have you here and there were just so many nuggets that I would love to mind more, so if you’re serious about coming back again, I think that may well be necessary because you keep churning out more good research.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Excellent.  Yes, that count me in.

Pete Mockaitis:

Okay.  Well, thank you.  And enjoy the rest of your day.

Dr. Carmen Simon:

Thank you so much, Pete. You too.