010: Defusing the Drama at Work with Dennis McIntee

Pete Mockaitis
Dennis, thank you so much for appearing on the How To Be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Dennis McIntee
Oh, my gosh, Pete, I’m so excited to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Fantastic! So you have a very impressive set of credentials. I’ve love it if you could share maybe a little something that we won’t read about you in the About the Authors section.

Dennis McIntee
Man, okay, so the secret of Dennis McIntee that nobody knows is that I secretly always wanted to be a jazz trombonist and actually got a full scholarship to music school, went for a little bit and I realized, “Man, I just didn’t want to practice 18 to 10 hours a day,” and that was that. So in my dreams, I’ve always wanted to be a jazz trombonist.

Pete Mockaitis
Wow! You’ve exceeded my expectations.

Dennis McIntee
Now I’m out of the closet.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Dennis McIntee
I’m a jazz fan. Here I come. I just come out of the closet. I’m a jazz fan.

Pete Mockaitis
Do you still play the trombone for fun?

Dennis McIntee
No, no, I don’t and I really should. My kids wanted me to teach them and the problem with a brass instrument is like once you stop, it’s really hard to get back into it and then I remember what I was and then what I am now and then I’m discouraged and into other things right now.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so it seems like you are into a lot of other things. I remember you’vegot acourse launching and so thanks so much for taking time with us in the midst of all that. But the main thing that I thought you would have to share with these folks, Awesome at Your Job-type people is your book, The 8 Qualities of Drama Free Teams.I love it when you gave it to me over at Michael’s place and we had a good chat about it, and so I’d love to hear kind of a scope in your own journey, how is it that you came to find an interest in the drama-free team stuff and an expertise along the way.

Dennis McIntee
Well I think like in every author and every speaker, we tended to develop content where we’re trying to like get the victory in. People are usually honest about that but typically that’s usually how it works, so I kind of think of myself as like I spend years being a drama king and what I mean by that is you play the victim. There’s nothing you can do. You don’t have a choice. You say things like, “Oh, I have to do this, or I should do this.” It’s victim terminology, so I played the victim and then I also play the blamer where it was this person’s fault and that person’s fault and really didn’t accept responsibility for my life. I kind of always blamed my present on my past and sort of minimized the role that I had to play in each thing. Pete, it’s sort of like my wife asked me the other day because I went to the drama a little bit, went to the drama zone and I was just complaining to my wife. It’s like, “Well this client this, that client this, this person that, and this person that.”

She said, “Dennis, stop for me.” She said, “Is there one common denominator in each of those stories?”

And I thought, “Common denominator?” I said, “No. If it was just one common person, common person, common person, common person, no.”

She was like, “You dummy.”

I think we tend to do that. We kind of minimize our role because even though people maybe they do things that we can’t control, but I choose to be in a relationship with that person. That’s my choice, or even worse is I was a great rescuer where I came in and saved the day and solved people’s problems and then I was mad about it and felt used and abused and codependent.

It really is probably a story truthfully about just my own journey about taking responsibility and taking control back in my life.

Pete Mockaitis
Thanks for opening up there. Now we used these terms – victim, blamer, rescuer. That’s ringing a bell. Is that a Dennis original or are you borrowing that from some social work stuff like a triangle or something?

Dennis McIntee
Yeah, it’s the drama triangle.

Pete Mockaitis
Drama triangle, gee.

Dennis McIntee
Yeah, so it’s taken right from some of that great work and so those are really kind of the three roles people play when they fall into drama and it really is a lack, I mean, people not feeling like they have a choice. It’s like responsibility people,people that are responsible see it that way. People who are responsible, they feel like they have an abundance of choices. People that are into drama, they feel like they have no choice, and so it’s really just about helping people and teams like sort of take that control and see the choices that they can make.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s lovely. So now if victim, blamer, and rescuer is what I don’t want to be, is there a name of a role that I do want to be?

Dennis McIntee
You want to be a creator, man. You want to be a creator. You do! you do. You want to create new possibilities and create new solutions, and so you can either be full of drama or you can be a creator.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, well that sounds like I want that. Can you tell us what’s the protocol or protips or best practices for making that transition? I know if there is to be three different prescriptions where you’re victim, blamer, or rescuer or how do we make that leap?

Dennis McIntee
Well, here’s the thing I. I sort of thinkthat you play all three roles like all at the same time if you’re not careful, so it’s like if something happens and you say, “Why does this always happen to me? Poor victim! Well, if people will just give me the information on time, so I blame Pete, well now I get to step in and fix it all and save Pete and I become the rescuer.” So within seconds, I played all three roles. I think if you fall into one, you fall in all three, but let’s just talk about one solution, okay?

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Dennis McIntee
And probably the biggest reason why people go into drama is it starts with a question and it typically goes like this, “Why? Why? Dennis, why do you always do this? Dennis, why do you always stick your foot in your mouth? Dennis, why do you always think you can do more than you can do?”

Honestly, Pete, why is it a horrible question is because typically there never is an answer. So I think you have to step back and watch the questions that you tell yourself because the questions you tell yourself determine the thought you think, which determines the feelings you have, which determines your actions, which determines your results, so I call that QTFAR, Q-T-F-A-R. If you want to change your result, you got to change your question.

Typically, our results with teams and working with people are based on the questions that we ask. In fact, if you think about this, it’s like something happens and I say,“Well, Pete, why did you do that?” What’s your first natural reaction when I say that to you?

Pete Mockaitis
I want to come up with a great reason why I did that to you.

Dennis McIntee
Yeah, absolutely. You’re like, “McIntee, you’re this, this, and this…that’s why.” It’s like you immediately become defensive. Okay, and let’s just be honest at our core is that do I really, really want to know why you did that or do I just want a different behavior? Typically, I just want a different behavior.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly.

Dennis McIntee
I really don’t know because I don’t want to hear all your past and all of your garbage and all of your like how your mother didn’t change your diaper when you were 5 years old, you know what I mean? It’s like if you want to dig down that’s probably why, some kind of an emotional issue when you were under 12. We ask a bad question, we’re going to get bad results.

I teach people, “If you want to get out of the drama, you got to change the question, so instead of asking why, here’s two power questions: it starts with what or how plus I plus an action. Something happens and the question you need to ask is, “Okay, what can I do to fix this? How can make this a little bit better? What’s one thing I can do today to improve the situation? And so, changing the question, it changes your mind frame, which really changes the results. It changes your actions and the results you get.Probably the proper way to get out of drama very quickly is just change the question.

Pete Mockaitis
I think that’s fantastic. I think as you tap into this here, I’m thinking that some people don’t – they want the drama, they enjoy it. That’s satisfying for them to roll around it, and so it’s like you’ve given us the prescription, the answer, the solution to drama, but I think there’s like a matter of like will or attachment to the drama.

Dennis McIntee
Well, you know a little bit here’s the deal is that the major gift that people can give is that they can give feedback to others, so maybe I like to kind oflike this. Let me say it this way, so when I first got married and I’ve been married – we’re celebrating our 25^thwedding anniversary this year.

Pete Mockaitis
Congratulations!

Dennis McIntee
Yeah. My wife has made it through with me. I mean, man, she’s stuck it out.

Pete Mockaitis
Well ..it’s probably easy, right?

Dennis McIntee
Right, right. Just like it’s sort of like when somebody asked my wife one day she’s like, “Man, it must be really motivational to be married to Dennis.” She looked at me and kind of rolled her eyes and said yeah, “Yeah, real motivation.” I’m just teasing. I’m just teasing, but it’s like our spouses really, they know the real us. But I’ll never forget when we first got married and I came from my personal culture, my family culture is that I came from Loud Land, and we believe that he who yells the loudest wins the argument and if you can stay in the yelling, then you win. My wife came from Quiet Land where they just can talk about anything and I’ll never forget, we went to a family reunion after about a year of being married and she pulled me aside after an hour and she said, “Dennis, do you guys hate each other? What’s going on?”

I was like, “What? What are you talking about?”

She was like, “You’re yelling”

I’m like, “We’re not yelling.” But it was like here’s the thing, Pete, to me that culture was normal.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Dennis McIntee
But I needed some awareness and somebody outside of my structure to go, “Hey, this is not normal, and here let me show.” So it wasn’t until like I got some awareness that I couldn’t change it because it’s like we can’t change what we can’t see. And so, I think there is a portion of like people, it’s like people grow up in it, because how you do anything is how you do everything. So it’s like I take me to work, I take me home, and so if I’m a drama king at home, I don’t always show up at work and be drama-free. It’s like I need some people to show me a different culture. I think that’s the big job of leaders is to help give their team awareness on behavior.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. There’s so much I want to dig into there. First, I think about Kelly Kapoor…

Dennis McIntee
Fun stuff.

Pete Mockaitis
What’s that?

Dennis McIntee
Yeah, fun stuff?

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, yes. I think about Kelly Kapoor from The Office who just love the drama, if you ever saw that show. She once said to her boyfriend, “You just say whatever is on your mind. What kind of twisted game is that?” Okay, that was fun. I had to share. So a lot of good stuff here. That question can we hear it again. I’m imagining because I’m also looking at the back of your book, the one coaching question that causes people to take personal responsibility. It sounds like that one. Can we hear it again?

Dennis McIntee
You want to hear that one? That’s a different one.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s a different one? Okay, well…

Dennis McIntee
Okay. Now you’re getting two strategies here.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Go for broke.

Dennis McIntee
I know you’re doing great, you’re doing great. So here’s a great coaching question you use with your team is that when something happens or they bring you a problem or they tell you about a situation, you just look at them and go, “Okay, so what would you like to do about that problem you have?What would you like to do about that problem you have?” Now listen‑

Pete Mockaitis
I would not have taken it.

Dennis McIntee
Well, listen here’s the deal. This actually is a great question because it assumes a couple of things. First of all, I assume that you are a very powerful person. You’re not a victim, Pete. You can solve your own problems, so I want to know what are you going to doabout that problem you have. It also puts the ownership of the problem where it needs to be. It’s on you. Now I can co-create with you but what are you going to do about that problem you need?

Here’s the thing. Here’s the deal is that drama typically lives in the fog. There is this fog of either expectations, attachments, or whatever they happen to be, and part of the job of the leader is just to bring clarity. I’ve got a friend who pastors this super large in the metroplex area in Dallas, and I was talking to him a couple of weeks ago and I said, “Man, tell me like what’s the big problem you face?”

He said, “Dennis, it’s the fight for focus. It’s the fight for clarity and the fight for focus.” He said that’s the biggest battle.” He says, “focus for myself, focus for my team, for my leaders.” He said, “Across the board anywhere, it’s the fight for clarity.” And it’s so true is that you know when things become clear, drama leaves.

Pete Mockaitis
I buy it.

Dennis McIntee
Well, buy the book, man! Everybody go buy the book. Try to send kids to college. Go buy books.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. Hey, that worked out well. I’m just going to keep this strategy going. So tell me while we’re at it, a proven feedback formula that creates behavioral change.

Dennis McIntee
Okay, so one thing you can do — I’m going to give you an idea – one thing you can do is it’s very hard to tell people about themselves, very hard to tell people about themselves like, “Pete, you’re just lazy.” Typically, that doesn’t go well, right? “Pete, you’re late. You’re lazy and you don’t care.” Typically that doesn’t go really well. Remember your job is to give awareness, so the purpose of feedback is not to give people your opinion. The purpose of feedback is to give awareness. Here’s a neat little feedback question you can ask. It’s like when action whatever happened, when action so like, “Pete, when you did show up on time, how do you think you showed up?”

Because here’s what people don’t realize – is that their behavior produces consequences. Their behavior produces a result. That’s it. That’s all that behavior does is produce the result. That’s all behavior does it produce the result, and so you got to be aware of what is the behavior and what is the result it produced. If you can’t get people to that point, you can’t help them change, so the great feedback question works well is like when something happens, when action, how do you think you’d show up?

Pete Mockaitis
And so it’s the message is clear. You showed up means how did you appear to others or how do you show up means — could you unpack that phrase a bit?

Dennis McIntee
It’s a nice way to say what has your behavior produced, what’s the result. It’s like, “Hey, Pete, you didn’t show up and didn’t call us and tell us you were going to break away.” It’s like what do you think the result was? What do you think happened this past hour?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Now I like it, and so in a way, I think it’s good stuff and it gets folks challenged to think and visualize and connect the results to their action, which is fantastic. I’m wondering if I’m on the receiving end of that like I say beggars can’t be choosers, I was the one who screwed up in this scenario, but I’ll be like, “You’re patronizing me. You’re talking to me like I’m a child.” What do you think?

Dennis McIntee
Well, did you act like a child, Pete?

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I did, Dennis I did.

Dennis McIntee
No. Here’s the thing. If you feel like a child, guess whose feeling that is? It’s your feeling and truthfully, I can’t make you feel like a child. You choose to feel like a child. Now if you tell me why are you patronizing you make me feel like a child, now we’ve got a different problem. Now we’re not even on the feedback problem. We’ve got to set that problem aside and dig after a deeper problem because now all of a sudden, you think that I can make you feel. “Holy cow! I am totally in control of you, Pete. I can make you like a child. Here I go. Ready.” Now we’ve got a deeper problem.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Dennis McIntee
I think you got to be careful to make sure you’re solving the right problem and that’s where like people can be sneaky where you work with them a little bit. They deflect and misdirect and say crazy things and then you say chase it. Here’s the deal: I don’t think you’ll be able to stop at times the drama because you can’t control people, but you can absolutely stop your drama, and so if things happen and you react out of that anger, that’s your deal and if somebody says you make feel like a child and I chase that, and I follow that rabbit trail, I’ve also entered the drama right in there with them.

Pete Mockaitis
And so what is the best practice? I say you make me feel like a child because you’re patronizing me? What do you say?

Dennis McIntee
Boy, it’s just weird. We are going deeper and deeper. It’s a lot of fun, so if you start to follow down that road, here’s where the drama comes. Drama is typically a tragic expression of an unmet need. It’s an unmet need, but people don’t even know what they need, and so I would just look at them and go, “Help me understand, what do you need? What do you need?” Then we just get clarity of needs and we have a needs and negotiation conversation.

Pete Mockaitis
In terms of what you’re able and what’s appropriate for you to provide and what they’re going to have to go as well before.

Dennis McIntee
Absolutely, absolutely. That also helps you stop codependent because when I tell people that, I was like, “I don’t like leaders taking that just meeting all their team members needs because that would be crazy, but you have to get clarity on what you as a leader need from your team and they have to be clear on, “Okay, this is what ‑” gives you the feedback. This is what I need from you and then have the needs and conversation. Then you have to answer the question of how we resolve conflict. Those are the three questions you have to ask if you want to create a drama-free culture in your team is, as a leader this is what I need, as a follower, this is what you need from me, and Pete, how are you going to resolve conflict? When we have conflict, what are the rules for dealing with it?

Pete Mockaitis
You know – go ahead.

Dennis McIntee
Go ahead.

Pete Mockaitis
I like so much of what you’re saying and it just sounds the word “grown up” comes to mind like…

Dennis McIntee
Yeah, I think if we’re not careful, we’ll end up having like adult-to-child conversations in our teams. I think we need to move to adult-to-adult conversations where I’m not telling you what to do. I mean I’ve got four kids. I don’t need another kid that tells them what to do, so we move to have adult-to-adult conversations where we clarify needs, clarify expectations, and just go produce awesome work.

Pete Mockaitis
I love it, so I’m thinking now is I imagine a landscape of people I know would have interacted with, there’s probably a reasonable segment of folk who aren’t going to get on board with the drama-free culture. What do you say to that?

Dennis McIntee
You know what, they’re absolutely well and that’s when you have the opportunity, once the expectations are defined, then you have the opportunity to free people’s future.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great.

Dennis McIntee
Let them — yeah just read their future. It’s like, “After today, your future is for you free. It’s bright. You can work anywhere else you want to work, you just can’t do it here. You can do whatever you want. You just can’t do it here anymore.” And so that’s where – no, I don’t want the leaders listening to this and like walking into a team and inspiring everybody because here’s the deal.

Okay, so you teach what you know but you produce who you are, so if it’s in your team, I would challenge you that it might be in you and your leadership has possibly created some of that drama because you know sometimes people listen to me talking, they back and I‘m going to inspire my team and start all over. Well, I mean the problem with that is that once you get a new team, it will probably happen again because it’s something in your leadership. So it starts with you as the leader and I always think of it as if it’s in my culture in some way, I have probably allowed it because the culture you create really generates the results that you want to produce.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Well, this has been so fun. I could just really think about and swim in these ideas for a while and I hope our listeners do as well, so you tell me is there anything else you want to make sure you get out there before we shift gears into the fast phase?

Dennis McIntee
No, this has been great. I just want to challenge leaders to really look at themselves first and work on you first because when you get better, your business gets better.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. So now let’s dig in a little bit. Can you tell me rapid fire about a first favorite quote, something that inspires you again and again?

Dennis McIntee
Winston Churchill said, “The price of greatness is the acceptance of responsibility.”

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. How about a favorite study any piece of research or experiment that you find yourself thinking about or referencing often?

Dennis McIntee
So I’m a big fan of Patrick Lencioni and just anything that he writes, so that’s probably my favorite author.

Pete Mockaitis
Next stuff I’m just going to ask about a favorite book is there a Patrick Lencioni book you’d point to? Is there something else you’re going to reference?

Dennis McIntee
I’m going to reference the Bible. That’s probably my all-time favorite book.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. I love it. How about a favorite website or online resource?

Dennis McIntee
www.dennismcintee.com.

Pete Mockaitis
I love it.

Dennis McIntee
Gosh! There are just so many, so many. Here’s a guy that I’m really connected with that would be good for your audience to know and that is Ray Edwards, and that he is at rayedwards.com, so go check out Ray.

Pete Mockaitis
The podcast, The Ray Edwards Show?

Dennis McIntee
Ray is a good friend of mine, so I follow everything that Ray does.

Pete Mockaitis
How about a favorite habit in your personal practice you’ve adopted that’s been particularly game-changing for you?

Dennis McIntee
Exercise every single day, every single day. Don’t miss a day.

Pete Mockaitis
Cardio?

Dennis McIntee
You need strength.

Pete Mockaitis
Morning, evening?

Dennis McIntee
Cardio. I do some strength for cardio. I need the endorphins, so a lot of cardio and one goal I have this year I’m going to throw it out there to your audience I’ll run a half a marathon this year.

Pete Mockaitis
Good luck! Fantastic.

Dennis McIntee
Yeah, thanks.

Pete Mockaitis
I’ve done it once and it was good. I enjoyed it. Half was enough for me.

Dennis McIntee
Yeah, that’s what I say. I don’t think I want to do the full.

Pete Mockaitis
How about any favorite tools, whether it’s a gadget or software, hardware, or thought framework you find yourself leaning on often?

Dennis McIntee
Gosh! My iPhone.

Pete Mockaitis
Favorite app on the iPhone we should know about?

Dennis McIntee
Favorite app on the iPhone? Gosh! I don’t know! I mean not that anybody else would ever like everybody’s got the same apps.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Dennis McIntee
You know I use Waze, W-A-Z-E-.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good.

Dennis McIntee
That’s my favorite travel app is Waze. It’s actually my new and favorite tool and the American Airlines app, I use that all the time.

Pete Mockaitis
Good. How about a favorite time-saving trick, any tactics or things you do to get so much done?

Dennis McIntee
Yeah, so I carry a little book about the size of my wallet around with me every day. At the beginning of the day, I ask myself what are the six actions of what makes a perfect day. I write out those six things, I think my inbox to inbox zero, clear it out, and I never open email the rest of the day, and I work from that small little list, and I’m crazy productive.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. How long does it take to hit inbox zero each day?

Dennis McIntee
About 3 minutes.

Pete Mockaitis
Three?

Dennis McIntee
Three minutes, yeah. Three minutes; I just parse my emails, turn them into action items. I don’t work out of my email.

Pete Mockaitis
I see.

Dennis McIntee
I don’t work out of my emails and action. I turn it into an action item, put it in a trusted system. I’m a big fan of the GTD systems.

Pete Mockaitis
That feels very David Allen.

Dennis McIntee
Yeah, it’s a little David Allenish, but I’m not cultish with it, though.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool, thank you. How about a favorite truth bomb or a little nugget when you share you see heads nodding and it gets tweeted and people start taking notes in a rush?

Dennis McIntee
Oh, my gosh! I didn’t know this was coming. The thing that just pops up to me is, “The culture you create generally produces the results you want.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, I love it.

Dennis McIntee
I don’t know. I don’t know. It’s maybe one. It’s one. I feel like I have hundreds, and I’m not sure what you mean by it. That might be my favorite but it’s probably not anybody else’s s favorite.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I get a real kick out of how you’re saying something kind of profound and forceful with a bit of a question.

Dennis McIntee
Yeah, you like that? It’s a different technique. Not everybody can pull it off.

Pete Mockaitis
How about a favorite way to find you if we want to learn more about you and your offerings? Should we go to your website, Twitter, email? What’s the best way?

Dennis McIntee
Check out dennismcintee.com. It’s probably the best way to keep in touch with me and you can look at my books and online course and audios and all that fun stuff.

Pete Mockaitis
Do you have a favorite parting challenge or call to action that you’d like to leave folks with who are seeking to become more awesome at their jobs?

Dennis McIntee
Edit this out for a minute. Let me think.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Dennis McIntee
Let me think. I never had anything edited out, so like the authenticity, that’s the question again.

Pete Mockaitis
Do you have a favorite challenge or parting call to action you’d like to leave folks with who are seeking to become more awesome at their jobs?

Dennis McIntee
Gosh, that’s good! Man, let me think for a minute. Yeah, that’s a great question. Yeah, I just want to remind people that when you get better, your business gets better, and I just want to encourage everybody to remember your professional life flows from your personal life. If your personal life is a mess, it’s going to show up in your professional life, so things like your spiritual life, your finances, your health, your marriage, your relationships. I just want to encourage everybody to take a look at some of the personal issues and make sure that you’re doing the right things at home because work can sort of be a rubber ball that when it’s dropped, it always kind of bounces back. But some of the personal relations are a glass ball, and if you drop a glass ball and it breaks, it’s gone forever. I just want to encourage everybody to get better personally because it will show up professionally.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. Well, Dennis, thank you so much for appearing on How To Be Awesome at Your Job podcast. This has been a ton of fun, and I wish you lots of luck.

Dennis McIntee
Hey, thank you. it’s great.