KF #20. Interpersonal Savvy Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Michael, welcome back to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Michael Bungay Stanier
Hey, I’m grateful that you’ve got a short memory and you keep inviting me back. I am thrilled to be back. Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, me, too. Well, you don’t give yourself enough credit. You just keep generating more groundbreaking intellectual insights that the world must hear.

Michael Bungay Stanier
You know, I do better when the expectations are lowered at the start of the conversation rather than raised, but I’ll do what I can to kind of rise to the challenge. But, thanks for saying that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, let’s try again. Well, you threw together some words, half of it is probably AI but let’s see if we can muddle through this.

Michael Bungay Stanier
Thank you. That’s perfect. I can do that. I can crush that.

Pete Mockaitis
You got it. Well, so you’ve always got a lot of fun stories. I’m curious to hear the last year, two or three, any really cool coaching moments, or relationships transformed, or highlights for you?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Oh, man. Well, the biggest one for me, and that plays a role in this new book, was, and this is only going to go deep and maybe slightly really dark really quickly, but my dad died a couple of years ago. And I had flown back to Australia, I was living in the house with mom and dad, and dad had made it out of the hospital, and he had about two months living at home before he finally died.

And it was a miserable stressful time for everybody, mom and dad in particular, and they’d been a really good couple for 55 years, like they’re really tight, they loved each other, they supported each other, they were just like a role model in terms of how you wanted a married couple to be. And they were kind of a bit snippy with each other.

Dad’s stuck in a bed, he can’t do the stuff he normally does, he’s a little bit, “Hey, Rosie, get me this,” “Hey, Rosie, can I have that, please?” and mom was like, A, stressed that her life partner was dying, B, stressed a bit, going to being the servant, all of a sudden, in the household, in a household where chores had always been shared pretty equally.

And I kind of plucked up my courage and suggested that they have a conversation about how they wanted to be with each other in the remaining weeks or months of dad’s life together because I really didn’t want, mom in particular, to go, “I wasn’t the best version I could be in a stressful time in the last time I have with my husband.”

And so, we facilitated this conversation, mom was like, “This sounds like the worst thing on earth.” My dad was like, “This sounds bad but we should give it a go,” and we just had that conversation about how they wanted to be with each other in this final time. And they did so well, I was so proud of them and thrilled for them, and it just took a little bit of an edge off those last days together.

Pete Mockaitis
Wow, that really is beautiful. And did your mom talk to you about that conversation later?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Yeah, when I first suggested it, my mom was like, “Absolutely not. That sounds terrible.” And then the third time I suggested it, she’s like, “Well, maybe but do I have to be there?” And I’m like, “I think you do have to be there.” And we have talked about it since then in terms of just talking through those last days and talking about my memory of my dad, of course.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that really is beautiful in terms of just positioning the richness, the value, all that is really wrapped up in our relationships and the conversations we have with those people. It’s big. And it does take some courage to have a conversation about your conversations, and yet really cool things are on the other side of them.

Michael Bungay Stanier
That’s right. As I’ve been kind of teaching some of the content from this book, I often ask a group, “Think of a really miserable working relationship you’ve had, or even just one that wasn’t terrible but just was kind of diminishing in a way, and think of what was said and done, and then think of the impact on you.” And then when you see what people put in the chat, it’s like, “I felt belittled. I felt shrunk. I lost my courage. I lost my sense of self. I did poor work.”

And then when you flip it, and you go, “Think of a really great working relationship you had, you might remember that, remember that back and forth, now what was the impact on you?” It’s like, “I feel braver. I feel more courageous. I did better work. I took bigger risks. I kind of expanded into the next version of who I am so I grew and I learned about myself.” And it’s like such a determinant of your work success and happiness in terms of the health of your working relationships.

But so often, we just cross our fingers and leave it to chance and hope for the best because it is an unusual and somewhat courageous conversation to say, “Hey, Pete, before we start working on the stuff, I think you and I have a conversation about how we do this best together so that we can not screw each other up and we can bring out the best in each other at the same time.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m a huge believer in this, and this has come up, I think, with my conversation with Mary Abbajay about how to manage your manager. She had a book about managing up, which is excellent. And she said that she surveyed folks, her audiences, and she said less than 1% of folks really have such a conversation.

And so, when I spread the gospel at different trainings and events that I’ve been at, and folks are like, “Oh, no, that seems kind of weird.” It’s like that’s how their fear gets articulated or manifests, “Oh, that just seems sort of weird. I don’t know about that,” as opposed to, “Pete, I’m terrified of engaging in those words.” They don’t say that, they’re like, “Oh, it just seems weird.”

Michael Bungay Stanier
Yeah, it is a bit weird. At least, if not weird, it’s unusual. And your statistics point to it, less than 1%. It’s a rare thing somebody says, “Let’s talk about how we work together before we talk about what we work on.” But I love the point you’re making, I hope people heard that, which is, this isn’t just for the people you manage and lead.

It’s for the working relationships, so you can do that with your best customers, and you can do that actually with your prospects, and you can do that with your colleagues you have to collaborate with, and you can do it with your boss. So, there’s all sorts of ways that you can enrich and strengthen and make safe and vital and repairable these key working relationships.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, the book is called How to Work with (Almost) Anyone: Five Questions for Building the Best Possible Relationships. As you were putting this together and researching it, did you have any surprising moments of discovery along the way?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Part of it was trying to figure out what the goal was in these conversations, and it felt helpful to realize that it wasn’t to create the best working relationship but the best possible working relationship. If you think of your working relationships you have, it’ll be a Bell curve. You have a few at one end where you’re like, “I love this person. I love how we work together, and it’s just thrilling.” And you have a few at the other end where you’re like, “This is sand in the gears. This is kind of a miserable experience kind of working through it.”

And it’s not always that because they’re nuts or a psycho or whatever. It’s just that sometimes you just can’t figure it out with the other person. And then there’s a bunch of people in the middle where it’s good enough, and it’s solid, and it’s great sometimes, but less than great some other times. And each one of those different categories has the potential to be better than it is now, make the bad ones trending towards good or less bad, make the ones in the middle better than just average, and make the ones at the top end sustainable so that they stay sparkly and powerful as long as possible.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. All right. So, then that’s the notion of a best possible relationship, I suppose, is knowing that not every relationship is going to feel magical no matter what conversation you have but there is untapped potential that we can get after with some of these questions. So, shall we jump right into the questions, or how would you frame how we start getting into such a conversation where we engage these questions?

Michael Bungay Stanier
So, I want to get into that conversation and those questions but maybe a moment just to talk about the three attributes of a best possible relationship.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Michael Bungay Stanier
So, I’ve mentioned them but let me say them again. It should be safe and it should be vital and should be repairable. I think one of the interesting things that I’ve learned is these aren’t A + B + C, they’re not additive. They’re actually in a dance with each other. They’re actually in tension with each other. The place to start is safe. And everybody who’s listening to this podcast will have talked about it and heard about psychological safety as a kind of key attribute for success.

Google Oxygen and Google Aristotle, all those projects alike, it’s safety that allows people to grow. Amy Edmondson, kind of the OG in this area, kind of championing and helping us understand what psychological safety means. And that is, a sense, to kind of move away from fear, and say, “I say what I need to say. I can show up as who I am without that fear.”

Pete Mockaitis
It’s kind of ironic that Amy Edmondson is researching and teaching about safety and yet she’s a gangster.

Michael Bungay Stanier
I hadn’t thought of that.

Pete Mockaitis
I know. I love the verbiage. I’m just joshing with you. We had her on the show, she’s great, and that’s fair. It’s a fair assessment. You could call her the grandfather/grandmother as well but OG hits me in my Danville, Illinois roots.

Michael Bungay Stanier
There we go. But she blurbed the book, and I said, “Amy, can I call you the OG of psychological safety?” And she’s like, “I don’t know what that means.” I’m like, “I’m not sure what that means. I think it means original gangster. I think that’s what it means.” Then she’s like, “Maybe you can call me Harvard Business professor.” And I’m like, “Sure. Okay, we’ll go with that. I totally get that.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Michael Bungay Stanier
But in balance with safety is vitality. Every relationship needs to be vital. And I like the kind of play on the words there, Pete. Vital meaning essential, but vital also meaning alive. And there’s a way that you want a relationship to push, and provoke, and challenge, and take you to the edge of your competence and your confidence, and what you can, and who you are so that you can…you want it to be fun and exciting.

And I think safe and vital are often in this kind of play with each other. There’s a way that you can make a relationship so safe that, actually, it loses some of its sparkle. There’s a way that you can make it so dangerous that it becomes unsafe. So, with whoever it is you’re talking to, you’re trying to find the right balance between safe and vital for you and that other person.

And then the third element is repairable. And as part of writing the book and reading around the book, I was reading people like Esther Perel, and Terry Real, and Dan Siegel, and John Gottman, some of the really big names who’ve written about the dynamics of marriage and romantic relationships. And one of the recurring themes across all of their work is how bad we all are at repairing damaged relationships.

Mostly, “Ah, I’ll pretend it didn’t happen,” or, “I’ll be sad and sulk about it,” or hopefully the fabric will just repair itself. But actually, it’s rare that people more actively say, “How do we fix this thing that got dented or cracked or banged up in some way?” But you can bet that any working relationship is going to go off the rails at some stage. And the ability to say, “How do we get it back on the rails? How do we get back to where we were before?” is a really powerful one, and the key contribution to a best possible relationship.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, what are some common best and worst practices in the realms of safety, vitality, and repairability?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Good question. In some ways, that question takes me back to my roots, and it makes me think about questions, and it makes me think about not asking questions. I think that the act of remaining uncurious is one of the ways that damages safety and vitality. If you have a certainty about how right you are, how your point of view is all you need, how you should be the one who solves it, fixes it, comes up with the idea, explains a problem, sets the team going, there’s a way that that is a diminishing act for the people around you.

And I think part of one of the other things that’s diminishing or can detract from vitality is… it is an inability to see them for who they are and be curious about who they are. The question I suspect that could be most powerful for unlocking a sense of what vitality might mean is, “What do you want?” “What do you want?” is one way of coming at “Who are you? Who are you over there?”

Human beings are these messy, complicated, amazing, obscure, unpredictable people who we have to work with. And so, asking, “What’s your best? What makes you alive? Who are you? What do you want?” you’re using curiosity as a way of unlocking their humanity, the person in front of you. And when you unlock their humanity, when you see them more completely, you have a better chance of both creating safety and vitality.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Okay. So, when it comes to a relationship being repairable, I could think it’d probably be good to say, “I apologize” from time to time when you screw up, and to maybe just acknowledge and not ignore, or hope, or pretend that things are just going to get all better. Any other pro tips in that repairable world?

Michael Bungay Stanier
The fifth question of the keystone conversation, the fifth and final question, is “How will we fix it when it goes wrong?” because it will go wrong. And there’s something really powerful about having a conversation about “How will we get around to fix this even before anything bad has happened?” And what’s interesting is less, actually, the answers to the question. What’s powerful is a recognition that, at some stage, something is going to go wrong, something is going to be dented, somebody is going to be disappointed. How will we go about fixing that?

And if you and I were having a conversation, like, “Okay, Pete, you and I are working together. We’re going to do a joint podcast. It’s going to be amazing. You’re the lead guy because you’re smart and you’re handsome and you’ve got a voice for radio. I’m the tall guy because I’m taller than you. I’ll change the lightbulbs and make the lighting work but we’re going to work together.”

And if I go, “All right. Look, how will we screw this up?” And you’ll go, “I’ve worked with people like you, here’s where it goes wrong, and here’s what I do, and here’s what you do.” And I’m like, “I get that.” And I’ll go, “Pete, when I’ve worked with people like you, prima donnas behind the mic, let me tell you how it all goes wrong.” And you’re like, “Okay, I get that.”

I’m like, “Okay. So, how do we fix that?” And I might say, “Look, for me, if you just come up and say, ‘Look, I screwed up. I’m sorry,’ that’s it. That’s all I need. I don’t need an explanation. I don’t need to work it through. I don’t need to workshop it. I just need that.” With a former boss of mine, we agreed that we’d have what we call an off-your-chest session.

So, if I came up to Dave because he’d done something annoying, I’d say, “Dave, I’ve just got I need to have it off my chest with you,” and I just get a chance to rant a bit. And we both knew that his job was to sit there and listen. He didn’t even have to apologize particularly. He didn’t have to fix it or justify. He just had to listen to it. And it’s the negotiation to say, “How will we try and tackle this?” that makes repairability more likely.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s really cool. All right. Well, so how do we kick off such a conversation in terms of I imagine we probably won’t just launch into some questions, like, “So, what’s your best”? Or, what do we do?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Well, I think it depends on who you’re talking to and what the setup is. I think you almost, in an early conversation with some people, you can kind of launch into it. And as an example, when I’m working with a vendor, somebody who’s supporting my small business in a way, in that first call, all I can say is, “Hey, I want to tell you about this project but before I tell you about the project and we get into too much detail about it, what is a good working relationship with somebody like me look like? Tell me what makes for a really good client. And then let me tell you what makes for a really good vendor.”

“And then, when we disappoint each other, and then how will you screw up this relationship? Now, let me tell you how I’ll screw up this relationship. So, how will we fix it?” So, there is a way that you can kind of plunge into it. I will you tell that when I do this with vendors, you can see their eyes widening a bit, they’re like, “What the…? What’s going on here?” But it allows me to have an interaction, a transaction, that has a chance of being the best version that it can be.

But if you’re working, say, with somebody on your team, you might choose to do this in a slightly different way. You might provide a little bit of setup. And I think it’s as simple as dropping them a note on Slack or email or something, and say, “Hey, I’d like a conversation about how we can best work together. Are you up for that?” It’s hard to say no to that invitation, because it’s like, “Yeah, I’d like to know how we can best work together as well.”

You can go deeper than that if you want. You could say, “Look, here are the five questions I think could be useful. I’m going to do some thinking about it in preparing my answer for that. If you have a chance to do that as well, so much the better.” Because it is true that everybody will have some first answers to the five questions. It’s also true that if you’ve thought about it, and you do some of the exercises that are in the book that will deepen and make more subtle and more nuance to your answers, that’s going to make for a better conversation as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, let us discuss these five questions. Lay it on us.

Michael Bungay Stanier
So, the first one is the amplify question, and the way it’s written in the book is, “What’s your best?” I’ve been thinking about it since the book has been written and created, I’m like, “Not sure that’s exactly the best phrasing of it.” But I’ll tell you what’s behind it, Pete. I didn’t go want to go, “What do you do best?” I didn’t want to ask, “What are your strengths?” I wanted a more general holistic sense of, “Who are you at your best? Tell me what you look like when you’re in full flow, when you’re working to your strengths, when you’re loving the work, the way you contribute best? What does that look like?”

And one of the nuances within that is, for instance, teasing apart, “What are you good at?” versus “What are you fulfilled by?” Because there’s also a way that what happens in our organizational life is we collapse thinking that just because somebody is good at it, they must enjoy doing it. And as we all know, we’ve all got something in our kit bag where we’re like, “I’m pretty confident that, man, this task sucks the life out of me. I don’t want to do that.”

But that’s a really powerful start, “Let’s just talk about what’s our best. What’s your best, Pete? What’s my best, Michael?” Now, we know the best version of each other, the strengths that we should be living with.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s cool. And I’ve heard, I think we had Dan Cable, won some awards for a rock and scientific paper for a very simple intervention that involved just that, new employee sharing that, and then unlocked all kinds of things, like, “Wow, that’s a pretty good ROI for a little exchange of information.”

Michael Bungay Stanier
Exactly. The second question after that is about your patterns and your preferences. It’s a steady question. Because, over the time, we’ve all built up the ways we work and the ways we like to work. And that is everything from the rhythm of our days, “I’m a morning person,” “I’m an afternoon person,” “I’m not a lunch person.” It’s the technology that we tend to default to, like, “I’m not a Slack person,” “I am a Slack person.” “Don’t ever leave me a voicemail.”

It’s right down to our kind of identity stuff around, “What’s my name? What’s not my name?” Like, “My name is Michael Bungay Stanier.” It’s a real mouthful. When I got married, I took my wife’s name, and it became Bungay Stanier. It doesn’t have a hyphen in it, which only complicates it. So, people are like, “Are you Michael Stanier? Are you MBS? Does that mean that you’re running Saudi Arabia?” I was like, “That’s a different MBS?” “Are you Mike?” I’m like, “I’m never Mike. There are only four people in the world that call me Mike, and it’s my brothers and their wives. That’s it.”

So, I’m best as Michael. And, in fact, before we hit record, you’re like, “What shall I call you?”

Pete Mockaitis
Even though we’ve interviewed before.

Michael Bungay Stanier
Exactly. And I really appreciated that because there was this little moment around, “What are your practices? And what are your preferences?” It’s like we’re having that conversation now to set this up. Because, just imagine, we’re halfway through this interview, you’ve been calling me Mike the whole time, I’m like, “Dude, this is a mic.”

Pete Mockaitis
M Sizzle.

Michael Bungay Stanier
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
What up?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Yeah, that I can go with. If you live with that, I’d be like, “This is the best interview I’ve ever had.” It’d be perfect. So, that’s the second one, which is like, let’s exchange information about how we best work so that we can just start spotting the stuff where we’re well-synced on that, and the stuff where, “Well, we’re kind of out of sync on this. How do we want to manage this between us?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, it’s a steady question, “What are your practices and preferences, time of day, communication, technology?” All right, let’s hear the next.

Michael Bungay Stanier
So, the third and the fourth questions are kind of a matching pair – dark side and light side, and they’re called the good-day and the bad-day question. The good-day question is, “What can we learn from past successful relationships?” because here’s the thing to take away. Your past relationships are a predictor of your future relationships. Even though I know your past relationships are in a certain context with a certain person, with a certain thing going on, a lot of the patterns that play out will play out again, dollars to donuts.

So, the first thing to talk about is like, “What has been really great? What happened? What did you do? What did you say? What did you not do and not say? What did they do and say, and not do and not say? What were the things that made this flourish?” And then you answer it, and then they answer it, or vice versa, but what a gift to know that this is the context, this is the way to make this person really flourish. This is all the things that can contribute to something working really well.

And then the pairing question is the flipside of that, which is like, “What can we learn from past frustrating working relationships?” because we’ve all had those, and we’re like, “Man, that sucked.” And even though it would’ve felt personal and individual at that time, there are patterns there, there are stuff happening there that if you can explain it to the other person, they’re like, “We should avoid that. We should avoid doing as much of that as possible.”

And so, the more that you can communicate what’s happened in the past that is both amplifying the best of you and shutting you down and making your life miserable, the more you’re able to go, “Hey, why don’t we try and avoid what we don’t like, and amplify what we do like?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then the repair question?

Michael Bungay Stanier
And then the repair question, which we’ve touched on already, but it’s like, “How will we fix this when things go wrong because things will go wrong?” It’s just there’s no way of sustaining a perfectly undented amazing working relationship forever. Somebody will screw up, somebody will break a promise, something will be misunderstood, something will be missed, some damage will happen. So, when there’s a tear in the fabric, what are we going to do about that?

And the power of that, and we said it before but I want to say it again, it gives you permission to keep talking about the health of the relationship. That’s where the magic happens with all of this. It’s the answers themselves but it’s, really, we can now keep saying, “Hey, we’re trying to build the best possible relationship here. How are we doing? Is this good enough? Do we want to tweak anything? Do we want to adjust anything? Do we need to say something that hasn’t yet been said? Do we need to clear the tables, reset, get ourselves back on track? What needs to be done?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, I’d love now, could you share with us some of the more interesting answers to each of these questions that you’ve bumped into in your travels?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Yeah, it’s everything, really. So, if the people who are listening to this think of their own answers, you can imagine people saying exactly the same as you, and exactly the opposite to you as well. So, when people say, “Michael, what’s your best? Who are you at your best?” I’m like, “You know what, I’m best when I’ve got something to create, I’ve got a way of trying to, what my friend Shannon says, to thingify stuff, to try and make     abstract ideas feel more real tangible and more real.

I’m at my best at designing experiences. I’m at my best at trying to understand what a reader or a participant is looking for, and trying to design to their real and actual needs. That’s some of the stuff that’s at my best. It’s like having ideas, I’m great at having ideas. That’s some of the best stuff for me.” But I’ll talk to my wife, who I work with for many years, and she’d say none of that.

She’d say I’m at my best when I get all my emails answered; I’m at my best where I get to have conversations with people and work with people one-to-one and kind of champion them and coach them on; I’m at my best where I get to kind of push back against authority and kind of point out that the emperor has no clothes. This is why we no longer work together because I’m the so-called emperor in this business, and I’m like, “You know what, I know you want your…you’re not necessarily for the man but I’m the man. You’ve got to be kind to me. We’re married.”

So, you get all sorts of different answers. That’s really the point, in some ways, which is it is very easy to assume you know what the answers are going to be. And when you assume you know what the answers are going to be, you’re kind of like, “I think I already know who you are,” and you actually stop that moment of engaging with them as a full human being, and you’re like, “Seeing you as I kind of I’ve boxed you in, giving you a Myers-Briggs label, and I’ve given you a this, and I’ve given you a that.”

And what this does is actually say, “Your answers are going to be different and unique. My answers are going to be different and unique. And then how we bring them together to build the best possible relationship is where things get really interesting.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. Well, so now we’ve had the conversation, we’re doing this stuff, can you chat with us a little bit in terms of maintenance? How do we keep that rocking over the long haul?

Michael Bungay Stanier
So, it’d be lovely if this was a one and done thing. You have the courage, you have the conversation, and you’re like, “We nailed it. Now we can just go about our business and, like, never need to bring this up again.” But, as with all living things, maintenance is required. So, there is a way to say, “How do I best stay present and active in this relationship? How do I stay open to doing what I can to keep it alive?”

And for us to name a single thing to do around this, Pete, it would be to ask the question, “Hey, how are we doing?” It’s to actually just move out of the hurly burly of all the everyday stuff that needs to get done, say, before we plunge into all of the tasks and all the to-do’s, because there’s always an endless amount of work to be done, let’s just have a conversation and check in on how we’re doing, “What’s working for you? Here’s what’s working for me. What’s not working for you? Here’s what’s not working for me. What’s one thing we can do differently to improve the way we’re working right now?”

And one of the questions, Pete, that I ask, and I think it’s particularly powerful if you happen to be the more senior person to hold more of the positional power of the conversation, the question is, “What needs to be said that hasn’t yet been said?” I started a company 20 years ago, and about four years ago, stepped aside from that for Shannon to become the CEO of that company, but I still own it so she and I are in conversation all the time and kind of, I guess, calling me a board member would make it big hat, no cattle, but kind of that type of conversation.

And there’s a power dynamic between us because I’m the owner and she’s the CEO trying to run the company as best we can. And we ask each other that question all the time, “What needs to be said that hasn’t yet been said?” because it’s that little nudge give us permission to talk about the needly stuff, or the stuff that might feel too small, or the stuff where it’s felt, “I just haven’t found the moment to mention this awkward thing.” It really clears the space, and says, “Now is a chance to mention anything that you’ve got just lingering there so that we can make sure that we clean it all up, if that’s what needs to be done.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. Well, Michael, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Michael Bungay Stanier
I’d say one of the unexpected benefits of doing this work and, perhaps, creating this book is that you deepen your own knowledge of yourself. It was very much about the relationship but, actually, there are exercises in the book. For each of the five questions, there’s three different exercises to help you deepen and enrich and make more subtle and more nuanced your answers to that.

And even if you’ve never had a best possible relationship, and you never had a keystone conversation, if you do the work and you come to understand in a more nuanced, more grounded way, “This is actually who I am. This is actually how I work. This is actually how I thrive. This is actually what shuts me down,” you’re better able to control and manage your work so that you can thrive and be awesome at your job.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Now, could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Michael Bungay Stanier
So, Pete, I might’ve mentioned this the last time we talked, and so forgive me for coming back, but it’s a favorite quote, so it’s still my favorite quote. There’s a poem by the poet Rilke, it’s called “The Man Watching,” that’s the English translation. And it tells a story of wrestling with an angel, so it’s an allusion or a nod to kind of the Bible, and Jacob wrestling with the angel.

And it talks about being ambitious for the bigger things, the bigger things that open us up and challenge us, and bring out the very best of us. And there’s a couple of lines in that poem which I think are extraordinary. I actually keep a little printout on my desk. And the quote is this, “Winning does not tempt him. His growth is to be the deeply defeated by ever-greater things.”

And this idea of hoping, I hope this for me, and I hope it for others, but I hope I still have the courage to seek ever-greater things and be deeply defeated by that. That’s what I’m hungry for.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Michael Bungay Stanier
There’s a book I’m reading at the moment by Ed Young, and it is about how animals experience the world. And so, this is a little bit kind of a sideways angle into this, but we, as human beings, tend to assume that animals mostly experience the world kind of like we do. We tend to project the way we kind of embodied in this world onto all the animals around us. And nothing could be further from the truth.

As a very kind of slightly pedestrian way of talking about it, if you think of zebras, hey, however you want to pronounce that, in their black and white stripes, when you ask most people, “Why are zebras black and white striped?” they’ll go, “Well, it’s camouflage. It helps them blend in so they can hide from the predators.” But actually, lions have eyesight that is so shortsighted that they can’t see the stripes in a zebra. They just see it as a kind of a grey donkey. And, in fact, the stripes of a zebra are there to confuse a tsetse fly so that they don’t get bitten by these flies.

And as I’ve been reading this book in bed at night, every three pages I’ll say to my wife, “Oh, my God, did you know…?” “Oh, my God, did you know…?” as I keep hearing about how animals just experience so much more of the world than we do in a way that we can barely even imagine it. And why I bring it up is because, even on a human-to-human level, the person across the table from you experiences the world in a way that you don’t fully understand. And it’s so easy for us to just kind of think, “Ah, I know who they are, and I know how they’re feeling, and I know what they think because that’s who I am and how I feel and how I think.”

And this ability to stay curious about who is that other person, and how do they see and feel the world, opens up that ability for a more human-to-human connection and relationship.

Pete Mockaitis
Got you. And a favorite book?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Nonfiction, my favorite book is Bill Bryson’s A Short History of Nearly Everything. Bill Bryson, as a writer about science, he has this ability to make the world feel miraculous because not only does he kind of make science less dusty, less boring, and kind of have the life gets sucked out of it in high school for us, but Bryson has this ability to say, “Look, this is amazing. And look what these people are discovering about our world.”

And then on a fiction level, there’s an Australian author called David Malouf. And one of his very first books is called An Imaginary Life. It tells a story of Ovid, the Roman poet, getting exiled to the shores of the Black Sea, as it is now. And it talks about him unlearning his urban ways and finding a new language and new way of being on the edge of civilization. And this integration between head, and heart, and the mind, and the senses is a really powerful journey.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Michael Bungay Stanier
I love the pens from Baron Fig. I’ve got one on my desk here made out of copper, I’ve got one other one on my other desk over there where I write, and I’ve got one in the little leather sheet. And I was home recently in Australia, and my mom has basically hundreds of cheap pens shoved in jars and cups all over the house. I have three pens and I only have three pens, and I love them. But writing is such an integral part of how I interact with the world, not just writing my books but kind of checking in my journal most mornings, that having a pen that brings me joy is an essential tool for me.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Making my wife coffee in the morning. And we both like coffee. I have espresso, she has an oak milk flat white but it’s the joy of the taste and the smell of really good coffee, but also the joy of being of service to my wife.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often, retweet it, etc.?

Michael Bungay Stanier
In The Coaching Habit book, I said, “Look, you can sum up this whole book as a haiku.” And I’m going to misquote it slightly, which is ironic, but it says something like, “Stay curious longer. Your advice is not as good as you think it is.” And “Your advice is not as good as you think it is,” is what I hear often from people.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Michael Bungay Stanier
You can find more about me, in general, at my website MBS.works. And if you’re interested in the book, BestPossibleRelationship.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Yeah, it can feel a little overwhelming to listen to what I’ve been talking about with you, Pete, and go, “How do I do that with all these people?” But if you can be the person who reaches out, who says, “I’ll take responsibility for starting to build the best possible relationship,” that is a great gift you and to them, and to your organization. So, don’t try and do it all, but perhaps pick one person, one key relationship that matters, pick one question of the five, and start a conversation where it says, “How do we work better together?”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Michael, this has been a treat. I wish you much luck and great conversation.

Michael Bungay Stanier
Thanks, Pete. You are a gracious host.

Pete Mockaitis
Eric, welcome back to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Eric Barker
It’s great to be here, man.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about your book Plays Well with Others: The Surprising Science Behind Why Everything You Know About Relationships Is (Mostly) Wrong. And I got a kick out of your dedication page, it is “To the relationships that you’ve screwed up.” Can you tell us a key story there about a screwup and some principles learned?

Eric Barker
It’s never been my specialty at all. One of the five factors that psychologists use to determine someone’s personality, one of them is agreeableness, and out of a possible score of a hundred, I scored a four. So, disagreeable, probably not helping there. One of the things that led me to write the book was that I’m not a specialist with relationships but then, actually, two weeks after I closed the deal to write the book, California lockdown for the pandemic, and I realized, “Maybe I wasn’t the only one who was going to be needing a little relationship-defibrillator after all this was over.”

Pete Mockaitis
I see. Okay. So, low on agreeableness, and so can you tell us a tale of how that got you into some trouble once?

Eric Barker
Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a specific time, but, it’s funny, the same trait that has harmed me in my relationships actually helps me in my writing because I tend to always challenge things, debate things, to not easily go with the flow, I want to test things, play myth-busters, and that’s basically how my book is structured. Like, taking the maxims that we all kind of assume are true about relationships, and wanting to say, “Wait a second. Is that really true? Shall I look up the evidence here?” So, there is a silver lining.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s funny, as I’m thinking about my relationships, I’ve got a friend, I’m thinking of my buddy Avon, in particular. He seems to love to take the other view every time, and I don’t even know if he really believes what he’s saying or if he’s just trying to rass me or he finds it fun. And it’s interesting, it’s like some people love that and some people hate that, like, “Oh, what an interesting thing we’re exploring. Hmm, we’ll do a little bit of banter, a little back and forth, volley, exploring.” And I was like, “Oh, my gosh, like, just can it, Eric.” Is that your experience as well, some love it, some hate it?

Eric Barker
Oh, no, absolutely. That’s the kind of thing where, like I said, after a day of working hard writing the book, I kind of have to tell myself, “Okay, turn it off, turn it off. Don’t need to test and question everything anymore. It works out really well with the writing, not so much as well with other people.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, could you kick us off with a particularly surprising or fascinating discovery you’ve made about relationships while you’re researching and writing this book?

Eric Barker
Yeah, one thing that really blew me away was the research on loneliness. Like, Faye Alberti is a historian at the University of York, and she basically found that before the 19th century, loneliness pretty much didn’t exist. It sounds crazy.

Pete Mockaitis
No kidding.

Eric Barker
But basically, we were all embedded in religions, nations, tribes, groups. We always felt like we were connected to other people. And what’s really interesting is that aligns with some of the scientific psychological research on loneliness, which is that lonely people don’t spend any less time with others than non-lonely people do.

Again, it sounds crazy but we’ve all had that feeling of being lonely in a crowd. Just because you’re on the subway or in the middle of Times Square, you can be surrounded by people and that doesn’t mean you feel connected to them. What John Cacioppo, the leading researcher on loneliness, found is that loneliness is how you feel about your relationships.

If you have good relationships, strong connections, and you go on a business trip, you don’t feel desperately lonely. You know that there are people who care about you, they’re just not near you or by you. But if you don’t feel strong connections to people, you can be surrounded by others. You could be at a sporting event and you’re not going to feel that great. Loneliness is, again, how you feel about your relationships.

So, in the past, we had these deep kinds of near-tribal connections to others. We were always part of a group. And these days, we saw, basically post-19th century, the rise of individualism, and so we don’t feel those strong connections. Loneliness is an issue of perception. When we aren’t near others but we feel we have strong connections, that solitude, that’s a positive, that’s me time. It’s like, that feels good. You know that people are there but you get a little time to yourself.

Well, when we don’t feel those strong connections, neuroscience actually shows that our brain scans for threats twice as fast, which, from our ancestral environment, makes sense. If you don’t think help is coming, you need to be on the lookout for danger, but that’s not terribly conducive to happiness.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, I guess we’re getting into it. Tell us, Eric, what is to be done if we are feeling not so great about our relationships and we got some loneliness cooking?

Eric Barker
It’s really an issue of deepening our relationships. The first thing I did when I…in the section of the book on friendships, the first thing I did was look at Dale Carnegie because that’s the book everybody knows, How to Win Friends & Influence People, and that book was written before the advent of social science research, it’s all anecdotal.

But the crazy thing is that the primary pillars of Carnegie’s book all proved true. They’ve all been verified, except for one, and that is he says to put yourself in the other person’s shoes. And research shows we’re actually pretty bad at that. But everything else, finding similarity, paying people compliments, listening, these are all positives. The thing is Carnegie’s book is written mostly for developing business contacts, so it’s kind of at the more shallow end of the pool.

But for deepening relationships, what I found is that the research seems to point towards two things, and that is time and vulnerability. Time is really critical. It is the thing that research shows friends fight about the most. And time is a powerful costly signal. You spend time with people, we only got 24 hours in a day. You keep spending time with somebody, it shows you care.

And vulnerability is opening up. That’s telling people what’s on your mind, your stresses, your challenges. We’re usually afraid to do this but this is what really creates trust. By talking about the things we’re afraid of, we tell the other person that we trust them, otherwise we wouldn’t say it, and that leads people to reciprocate, and that’s how you build trust.

So, it’s really critical for us to go past the small talk, and very often we can feel stuck in the small talk, and it’s time and vulnerability that will deepen relationships, make us feel closer to others, and help us beat loneliness.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s funny, I moved about a year ago from Chicago to the Nashville area, and I am more distant from many of my close friends than I used to be. And so, I’ve been thinking a bit about how one forms great friendships, particularly as it’s a little bit of a different ballgame being 38 with two kids and a wife than being 24 and “Woo,” just out and about for many nights in a given week. So, tell me, is there a…I guess it’d be hard to precisely quantify this with all the variability in humanity. But, like, what kind of time are we talking about here, Eric?

Eric Barker
What’s really interesting is Jeff Hall did some research on how much time it takes to go from just meeting someone to being like a good friend or a best friend, and it’s some pretty depressing research. It could take hundreds of hours to get to, like, closer best friend. But on the flipside, it is a matter of how we handle it and what we do.

Arthur Aron did research, and by giving people a series of questions to get them, like, opening up and talking, he managed to get people, in a laboratory setting, to feel like lifelong friends in only 45 minutes. In fact, two of his research assistants who were working on the project with him, actually fell in love and got married because of working on this.

So, it’s really that issue of vulnerability, of opening up. Usually, when we first meet somebody, we’re often tempted to try to impress them but the literature shows that signaling high status, while it might impress people and it might be good in maybe a sales or a business context, on a personal level, it tends to distance people. They don’t feel related to you. They feel like you’re above them or something.

Meanwhile, expressing yourself as a peer or actually showing human-relatable flaws, that’s the thing that makes us understand, relate, connect with people because we all have those insecurities. And when you express them, it’s like we get that, “Whew” feeling where we can relax, where we can relate. So, that’s the thing we really need to keep in mind.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m curious, when it comes to vulnerability, that sounds like sharing the stresses, the problems, the worries. To what extent is there also connected value in sharing the joys?

Eric Barker
Sharing joys is really positive, there’s no doubt about that. The literature points to this, something called capitalization, and that is when your friends or your spouse talk about something positive that happened to them, it’s really important to ask questions, it’s really important to be happy for them. In fact, it was Shelly Gable that did research at UCSB, and she found that actually celebrating those positive moments, how you handle the positive moments was actually more predictive of romantic relationship success than how you handle the difficult moments.

It sounds crazy because we’re always so focused on fixing things, on trying to resolve the problems in a romantic relationship but John Gottman found that 69% of the ongoing problems in a romantic relationship never get resolved. It’s like you’re not going to fix all of these things. You’re not going to fix most of these things. It’s about the regulation of conflict, not the resolution of conflict.

But on the flipside, you want to be a supporter, you want to be a cheerleader, you want to share your positives, you want them to feel good for you, to be curious about it, and you want to do the same for them. This is a positive relationship tip you can use anywhere, especially in a romantic relationship, is to really look for those positive things, be supportive, be the cheerleader. This is a huge thing that we often forget about because we’re usually trying to bring the bottom up rather than trying to raise the roof. And it’s really important to celebrate those positive moments.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. That’s good. Any pro tips on how that’s done in practice? I just watched the show Devs, and somebody kept mentioning if they wanted a champagne bath. So, I guess that’s one tactic, is to bring a bottle of champagne with you to splatter people when they’re excited, though they might not receive that so well in real life, like, “I’m all wet now and sticky.” So, any other more practical recommendations for celebrations? I guess what we don’t want to do is say, “Okay, that’s nice,” and just, boom, brush aside. But, yeah, like what that sounds like in practice?

Eric Barker
What some of the advices that they give romantic couples is pretty straightforward. At the end of every day, you say the best thing that happened to you that day, and your spouse says the best thing that happened to them that day. And again, like you said, you don’t want to be dismissive, you don’t want to just nod your head and acknowledge it. It’s, like, you want to be happy for them. You want to ask questions. You want to be just listening and be supportive and be excited. It’s about that emotional back and forth, so it’s just consistently.

It almost sounds weird but even with your friends, it’s like, “Hey, what good things have happened lately?” It’s not something we usually do but it’s not too crazy a question, and I think most people are pretty happy to talk about the positives that are going on. You’re basically letting them brag. That feels good and if they’re somebody you care about, it’s going to feel good for you, too, and it can have very positive effects for the relationship.

Pete Mockaitis
I remember a motivational speaker once mentioned that he had someone, I think it was at work, and that was just sort of like their go-to line when they started talking, and say, “Tell me something good,” and everyone liked that person. It’s like, “Oh, that’s what Marty says, and I like Marty,” because, go figure, people are telling him something good all the time, and he’s getting the goods and celebrating with them.

Eric Barker
Well, it’s a funny thing because, like I said, very often, especially in romantic relationships, we’re usually focused on fixing the negative, but it’s like if you feel step back for a second and think about that, if all you’re doing is fixing the negative then, really, ceteris paribus, that means you’re going to get to neutral. Even if everything worked, if the 69% of long-term issues could be resolved, you just get to neutral, and, “I have a not negative relationship with every stranger on this planet.” It’s, like, that’s not love. It’s, like, you don’t want to get to neutral. You want to be beyond that. You want to be supportive.

That’s why one of the other things I talk about, at least specific for romantic relationships, is doing exciting stuff together because the thing is that there’s a psychological principle called emotional contagion. And basically, what that means is we tend to associate the feeling that we’re having in any context, we associate it with the people we’re with.

So, if you’re doing fun stuff, you associate that with your partner, and that keeps the relationship alive. It keeps things exciting. And so, we need to do more of that. Too much Netflix and pizza on the couch, we actually need to get out more and do more exciting fun things so we can keep those positive feelings flowing.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Well, we went deep on loneliness and friendship and forming bonds. Maybe we can zoom out a bit. And could you share with us what’s sort of like the main big idea or thesis behind the book Plays Well with Others?

Eric Barker
Well, one theme that I found throughout all the aspects that I was looking at is that relationships really do come down to stories, stories in your head. The first section of the book, I talk about the issue, like, they say, “Don’t judge a book by its cover” and I kind of tested that. I went and looked at the research on body language and communication and reading people.

And what happens is, as soon as we meet somebody for the first time, or even if we’re seeing somebody we’ve known for a while, our brains are immediately telling us a story about who this person is, and we kind of can’t help it. We start making assumptions in milliseconds. And it’s an issue of revising that story but that story is going to be there.

And in a romantic relationship, John Gottman, I mentioned earlier, he’s the leading researcher on love and marriage, and his claim to fame is that he can predict whether a couple would be divorced in five years just by talking to them for a few minutes. And he can do this with about 90 plus percent accuracy. And how he does that is simply asking the couple, each member of the couple, “Tell me your story.”

And when he listens to that story, if it’s this story of overcoming challenges and that’s really something, celebrating those difficulties and getting past it, that’s a really positive sign but it’s not about the facts and details because we forget most of the facts and details. We kind of congeal them into this story, and if that story is positive, things are really good.

And past that, the final section, I talk about, I test “No man is an island. Is that true?” And it’s this issue of communities, have a story, a story they tell about who the members are, “’What is important to us? What do we value?” And that story is what draws us together. So, it’s this really critical element of understanding the stories of how we perceive others, how we’re connected to others, the community that we’re a part of. This is kind of the subtext, the element that undergirds everything that goes on between human relationships.

Pete Mockaitis
And what’s interesting about that is you could just change your story about a relationship you have with somebody without interacting with them in any subsequent way. So, you could just choose to reinterpret and reformulate your story about your relationship with them in your head, could you not?

Eric Barker
Oh, absolutely. And that can be a positive thing and that can be a negative thing. We can reflect on it and we can look at different aspects, and we can say, “You know what, I’ve been judging them too harshly. Like, I forgot there were those few times where that person really went out of their way to help me, and I kind of dismissed that.” Or, on the flipside, something that’s common with long-term relationships and marriages is that people sometimes they don’t want to fight, they don’t want to argue, so they don’t raise issues. And when you don’t raise issues, they can’t get resolved.

And so, instead of people having a conversation about their spouse about an issue, they start having conversations with themselves, and that doesn’t always go so well because you start making assumptions about what they believe, where they stand, why they did what they did, and this can be really problematic because now we’re not actually getting insight from them; we’re making it up ourselves and that can quickly turn negative because what a lot of people don’t realize is that, yes, you don’t want to fight but the truth is, yelling and screaming, only 40% of the time does that result in divorce.

What is more likely to result in divorce is when a couple stops talking. You yell and scream because you care. When you stop caring, you stop interacting. And that’s what more often precedes divorce is when couples start living parallel lives where they’re not communicating, they’re not connecting, they’re not arguing, they’re not resolving problems. They’re just going, “It’s not worth it,” and kind of living their own life. That’s what usually precedes divorce.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. And if we sort of shift the focus into the workplace and professionals and those looking to be awesome at their job, what are some of the best takeaways for folks looking to have strong relationships with their boss, their peers, their clients, their suppliers, etc.?

Eric Barker
Well, like I said, in terms of friendship, those are some of the really key things, is trying to deepen those relationships. Like I said, time, vulnerability, but another thing we deal with in the workplace is that, with our friendships, the interesting thing about friendships in our personal lives is that you can leave whenever you want.

In the workplace, you’re going to deal with some people that maybe you don’t like so much. That’s the tricky part about it because of the role. And what the research has shown is that the people who cause us the most stress aren’t actually our enemies, because enemies, like we know where we stand, we don’t like them, they don’t like us. The people that drive us most crazy are those ambivalent relationships. Sometimes it’s good, sometimes it’s bad. It’s that unpredictability. And Julianne Holt-Lunstad at BYU has found that that’s what drives our blood pressure up, it’s these people who we don’t know how they’re going to behave, whether they’re going to be nice or difficult this time.

So, in terms of dealing with difficult people, what we need to keep in mind is emphasizing three things: emphasizing similarity, emphasizing vulnerability, and emphasizing community, because these are the things that can sort of activate the empathy muscles in someone else. Maybe if they’re a little narcissistic, maybe if they’re difficult, when we express our similarity to them, when we talk about a vulnerability, weaknesses, when we express community, that we’re a part of something, that can trigger those empathy muscles that can help us deal with them a little bit better, help them understand us a little bit better. That’s truly key to dealing with those difficult people in the workplace.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, what does that sound like in practice to convey similarity, like, “Boy, Eric, you and I, we both love a good microphone, don’t we?”

Eric Barker
Again, we take those things for granted but that’s usually how many relationships start, is you’re both into a particular sport, a particular sports team, you’re both Star Wars fans, you’ve got something you relate to. And with those people that we haven’t taken the time to find something that we can both relate to and care about, that kind of acts like a medium for us to work through.

So, finding out a little bit more about somebody and finding that connection, research shows this is really powerful in terms of us feeling like we are connected, we’re part of the same group. In that way, community-wise, again, feeling like we’re a part of something, we’re both working toward similar goals. The research shows that a great way to get people who don’t like each other very much to cooperate and feel connected is to have them work on a project together, it’s when they have to rely on one another.

So, it’s really critical, it sounds a little silly in the abstract, but finding those similar things, asking them enough questions to realize, like, “Hey, we’re both into this,” it can make a surprising difference.

Pete Mockaitis
That is good. And I’m also thinking about some research. I read about it in Bob Cialdini’s books about moving and/or singing or dancing or marching in unison has a powerful effect there.

Eric Barker
Anything like that, again, builds that kind of similarity, like that’s in the physical realm is that we’re doing the same things, we’re coordinated, we’re working together. That means you’re a part of something. You’re connected. What’s really powerful, I think, from Cialdini’s, he has Influence which is like he’s masterwork, but his other books are excellent as well, Pre-Suasion where he talks about how so much of what helps negotiations and conflict resolution isn’t the tactics that you huse in the middle of it. It’s those things that you set up beforehand.

And that’s where similarity falls in. Once you feel, like, “Hey, we’re connected in this way. We both care about this same thing,” you’re more disposed to want to help someone. It’s like if a stranger asks you for a favor, that’s very different than when a friend asks you for a favor. You have something that connects you beforehand.

One of the researchers at Harvard Business School talked about salary negotiations, and, again, it wasn’t necessarily the specific tactics used during the negotiation. The number one thing that he said was they have to like you, was beforehand making sure that they like you, they appreciate you, they feel connected to you, because, again, it’s one thing dealing with a stranger, to another thing dealing with a friend. You’re much more disposed to give them the benefit of the doubt, to say, “Hey, sure, we don’t mind covering that expense. We don’t mind doing this.”

We think about these kinds of like really nuanced tactics in the middle, but if you can think about the beginning ahead of time, and say, “How can I really connect with this person emotionally so that they’re disposed to want to help me?” that’s much more powerful.

Pete Mockaitis
And so then, with that connection now, those principles then of the similarity, vulnerability and community there?

Eric Barker
Yeah, first and foremost, like I said, that similarity, that’s something that we’ve all had that moment where we’re trying to connect with somebody, trying to go from acquaintance to friend, and similarity can really help. It gives you something to talk about. It gives you something that you connect on. And then that vulnerability aspect, where it’s like we all have our little jerk radar where we don’t want to be dealing with somebody who’s a pain.

And when somebody opens up and says, “Hey, you know what, I actually struggle with this. I’m not that great at it,” or, “Hey, this actually scares me,” that makes…humanizes somebody. They’re not trying to act like they’re above you or better than you. In community, it’s like we’re connected. It’s like, sometimes we don’t always love our in-laws but we still behave, we still do favors for them, we still do things because we recognize that we’re connected, we’re a part of something, and that shifts our perspective.

Pete Mockaitis
It sure does. And I also want to talk a bit about the digital side of things. Social media, how do we use that well such that we don’t create more bitterness, division, self-esteem problems, jealousy? Any pro tips there?

Eric Barker
Absolutely. You see research back and forth that social media is the devil, social media is not the devil, and there are some stuff back and forth, but the key thing we want to be thinking about when it comes to social media is time. And that is that you only have 24 hours in a day. Some of that is going to be sleep, some of that is going to be work. You only have so much of a budget for social time. And if too much of that is being used for social media, then it’s not being used for deeper richer connections, like face to face.

We just want to make sure that social media is not cannibalizing it. You don’t want to be replacing kind of the rich sumptuous meal of face-to-face contact for the junk food of social media. If you’re using social media to reach out to somebody who’s far away, hey, that could be really positive. If you’re using it to communicate with somebody who’s nearby and you’re using it to plan a face-to-face get-together, hey, it’s an alley of positive.

But if we end up, consciously or unconsciously, using it to replace real relationships, that’s when it gets problematic. And when it’s eating up too much of the buddy budget, the social time, just on Instagram, that’s really where it’s quite clear that we’re not treating our relationships as well as we could.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear that. And I’m also thinking about sort of the nature of what you choose to post on social media. And I found, for me, what makes me more favorably disposed to someone is they share something and it seems like it really is a means of spreading delight and goodness and positivity, as oppose to a post which says, “Look how awesome I am,” like, “Oh, just getting some sushi in Tokyo at the top sushi place ever.” It’s like, “Okay. Well, good for you, guy. That’s fun. I guess I’m supposed to think that your life is awesome.”

As opposed to, I’m thinking about my buddy Patrick, he once posted, “When my wife and I are cooking together and sharing instructions or collaborating, we respond to each other by saying, ‘Yes, chef,’ and it makes cooking so much more fun.” And I think of that because that is awesome and I do that now, too, and it really is fun and it spreads joy. And in both contexts, we’re talking about doing some food stuff and yet one post, I think, well, it makes me think more of Patrick, like, “This guy is awesome,” and not because he’s high status but that he’s just putting out joy into the world.

Eric Barker
Absolutely. I totally agree. This is something we’re kind of touching on earlier, where it’s like often when we first meet somebody, people often try to brag, they often try to signal high status, and it’s exactly what you said. When you see social media posts where clearly the person is bragging, and saying, “Look how awesome I am,” that doesn’t make us like them more, that doesn’t make us feel more warmly connected to them, so that’s probably not conducive to positive long-term relationships.

But when somebody posts a funny anecdote or if somebody is kind of like poking fun but it’s at themselves, then we do feel positively disposed to them. If somebody puts a warm positive moment, we react better to that. And these are the kind of things we definitely need to be thinking about because I think we’ve turned a lot of things. I think, by its very nature, social media often tends towards turning things into this kind of social competition because we’ve got quantification of likes.

You have a direct quantification of how much people like this post. That has this kind of almost competitive element to it. And I think, to your point, we need to resist the urge to kind of one-up people in that status competition, and another way is to rely on being a little bit more human.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Eric, tell me, any other top do’s and don’ts for us looking to improve our relationships?

Eric Barker
Yeah, one thing from the romantic relationship research, but I think it’s applicable in pretty much any relationship context, is John Gottman, that relationship researcher, he found that just by listening to the first three minutes of a conflict discussion between a couple, he could predict the ending 94% of the time.

And the takeaway from that is if it starts negative, it’s going to end negative. If you have to bring up a difficult topic with your spouse, or frankly with anybody, if we go in there firing both barrels, the research is pretty clear, if it starts negative, it’s going to end negative. So, if we present it in a more constructive way, we take a deep breath, we step back, we don’t launch into it in this very kind of antagonistic attacking mode, it can be a lot more productive.

Even though we feel like we deserve this, “I’ve been victimized. I need to…” that’s not going to get you the end result you want 94% percent of the time. That’s a very high number, so take a deep breath, think constructively, don’t point fingers, don’t personalize it. Anytime you have to have a conflict discussion, whether it’s at home or in the office, don’t discuss the other person’s character. Talk about the specific issue you had and stick to the facts.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Now, Eric, I’d love to hear some of your favorite things. How about a favorite quote?

Eric Barker
Oh, yeah. Well, this is a quote that meant a lot to me when I was writing both my books because I was thinking about, like, testing these maxims and all these issues we have around both success and relationships. It’s from William Gibson, he said, “The future is already here. It’s just not evenly distributed.”

And that really resonated with me because I looked at the research and there’s a lot of answers to the questions we already have. It’s just tied up in all this ivory tower academic research. And so, my focus was trying to take that and make it accessible to people because the answers are already here, to many of our problems. It’s just not evenly distributed.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. That’s why I love doing interview podcasts, it’s like, “Hey, I don’t have to figure all this out. I’d just get Eric to share the goods.” Cool. And how about a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Eric Barker
This isn’t necessarily practical. It might make people feel a little bit better but one of my favorite pieces of research is there was one study done on ethics professors and ethicists, and it found that they weren’t any more moral than the average person.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Eric Barker
So, if you feel like, maybe you haven’t been behaving that well, even experts in the field, hey, they’re not necessarily all that better, so don’t beat yourself up.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Eric Barker
Favorite book, oh, God, there’s so, so, so many. I have to say one of my favorite books recently is my David Epstein wrote a book called Range, which is not only really useful, really smart. It also made me feel much better because it talks about how generalists can thrive, and how generalists often do very well because I’ve always been a generalist. And anything that helps me rationalize my decisions is amazing and wonderful.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be more awesome at your job?

Eric Barker
I have got to say that I remember many years ago, my friend Drew got these Bose noise-cancelling headphones. They were pretty pricey, and I was like, “Why?” And I’m not a big music guy. I listen to podcasts, but I got to tell you, noise-cancelling headphones literally changed my life. It’s like when you’re on planes, when you’re trying to block out noise, you got loud neighbors, it’s something silly, I didn’t think it was going to be that big a deal, but, man, I can’t live without them.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I love them and sometimes I will put in earplugs and then put on noise-cancelling headphones. I’m just really into that cone of silence.

Eric Barker
Okay, you’re playing on serious mode now.

Pete Mockaitis
I am. And it does send a message. It’s sort of like a ritual. It’s like, “All right. No messing around. We’re seriously dialing into this.”

Eric Barker
Oh, yeah. You’re putting on the Batman costume. Like, “This is it. We’re going to war.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I need a montage I need to play during this.

Eric Barker
Yeah, with some John Williams music. Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. And a favorite habit?

Eric Barker
Favorite habit is reading. There’s no doubt, my first instinct when I have extra time is to fire up the old Kindle app. And, typically, you think, “That person is going to call me back in five minutes,” or, “Oh, this is only going to take this long,” or, “The internet will fix itself and work,” “My Wi-Fi will be working again.” You know what, sometimes it takes longer than you think. Often, it takes longer than you think. So, I get myself reading and the time flies by.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they highlight it in the Kindle book version of your works, or they re-tweet it a lot?

Eric Barker
I think the key thing was, in the new book as well as with others, there’s the Grant study which has been going on for nearly a century at Harvard. They’ve been following a group of men, basically, their entire lives. I think most of the men are in their 80s or 90s, and so it’s interesting, rather than some two-week study or six-week study to see what happens across a person’s entire life.

And, as you can imagine, multiple people have led this study because it’s taken nearly a century. And when they asked George Vaillant, who was probably the guy who led the study for the longest time, they said, “Look, what have you learned?” and, as you can imagine, the amount of information they’ve collected could fill a warehouse, but he replied with only one sentence. And he said that your relationships to other people are the only thing that matters.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Eric Barker
They can go to my blog at EricBarker.org, E-R-I-C-B-A-R-K-E-R.O-R-G. And the best thing to follow the insights and tips that I’m finding from the research is to sign up for my weekly newsletter.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Eric Barker
Yeah, the key thing I would say is, and I talked about this in my first book, was sit down with your boss and ask them what you can do to make their life easier. Ask them what you could be doing, point blank, to be better at your job and to be a better contributor. There are two benefits here. Number one, you are basically getting the answers to the test. They are going to tell you what you need to be doing.

And, number two, just in terms of signaling and relationship, how would you feel if you were boss if an employee came to you, and said, “How can I make your life easier? What do I need to be doing to be a better contributor?” That is a very, very positive signal, and it is going to tell you what you need to be focusing on. It’s a simple little thing and it can be a gamechanger.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, that absolutely can be. And we had Mary Abbajay on the podcast talking about how to manage your manager, and that was one of her very top tips. And she said that she frequently will ask audiences, like, “Who’s done this?” and it’s generally less than 1% of professionals have done that. But, yeah, it’s powerful on both sides.

Eric Barker
And then for advanced mode, every week, sum up what you’ve been up, what you’ve accomplished, and send a quick bullet point email to your boss, and make sure to be focused on that thing that they told you, that you are making progress towards what they said was most important. This is extremely valuable. Your boss is busy. They’re not watching everything you’re doing.

So, to be telling them, “Hey, here’s what I’ve been up to,” makes them relaxed, makes them like and appreciate you. You’re basically doing a highlight reel. And if things don’t work out at that job, you can go back to every Friday email you’ve sent through all the weeks, and you know how to update your resume because you basically have a long list of all the things you’ve accomplished while you were there.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s so good. Eric, thank you. It’s been a lot of fun. I wish you much luck with the book Plays Well with Others and all your adventures and relationships.

Eric Barker
Thank you so much. It was fantastic to be here.